Auto Dealers defrauding borrowers through higher interest rate car loans. Class action law suit *CONSUMER INFO *Associate Editor's comment

How do you think dealerships stay in buisness? It is called PROFIT. If you want my help in getting a car loan you will need to pay me for it. I do not work for free anymore than my customer does. Do you think your doctor should give you his services for free? It is common knowledge that when you go to the movies you pay them PROFIT to watch it. Do you think Best Buys sells their TVs for cost? You need a lesson in economics. Our country revolves around PROFIT. Everyone makes a profit for their services. I am a finance manager. I DO NOT rip people off. I offer services and products, if they see value in my services and products they will pay me for those. Get a clue.

I'm not even sure where to begin. I've been monitoring this site since I found it about 3 wks ago. This I believe is a great forum for the consumer to report an injustice either ethical or moral and to find others in the same boat, that can possibly help each other out.

From the consumer what I've seen mostly are people that are at thier wits end and just want some truthful honest answers on how to FIX thier problem, I have responded to some with what I thought were real answers to real problems, some were posted some were not but that might be a different story.

But I responded for two reasons.

1. it broke my heart to see what SOME un-ethical people in this industry has done to the unsuspecting public

2. Is because from the advocate side I saw no one giving answers to the problems posted. What I saw was you sir, with your undisciplined and unprofessional reply's under the guise of knowing what your talking about. But we'll get to that in a moment. First let me break it down for you and all the concerned parties.



In your reports I noticed you take a very pesonal and vindictive tone for instance you bunch ALL DEALERS together as sucky slimeball assholes etc...

In reality not all dealers are bad or un-ethical so don't say all if you truely WANNA HELP tell the people how to spot the differance between the two so the people you say you want to help know where to go maybe youi could even do a little research to lead them in the right direction.

Negative statements like "salesman goes into building with next victom in tow" (quote)shows immaturity and lack of professionalism on your part. Next you state "the desk mgr or finance mgr will shotgun you app to as many auto lending companies as possible" although there are a few idiots out ther who still do this, NOT MOST (here's where you frown and say, ya right) let me explain a dealership's first priority is to sell cars and shotgunning apps hurts the deals ability to get bought.

It also pisses off the loan officer at the banks, in most cases an experianced f&i mgrs knows where they will send it and about what rate it will come back at.

So as you can see shotgunning apps is not condusive to maximizing profits. Now we can move on to your statement about inquiries on credit reports "this does severe harm to the buyers credit"(quote) if you truely had any idea about the auto industry and credit you would know that a consumer is allowed up to 7 inqiries pr yr without it effecting score, and up to 14 if you purchase auto with in 2wks. Now people don't read me wrong I'm not down playing the fact that an unscrupulous dealer can't hurt your score with inquiries because they can and in some cases will but in most cases this is the exception not the rule! Stick if your going to give advice DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!



Then you say MOST dealers won't tell you about special rates from the manufacturer. you really missed the boat on this one. Remember earlier I said the dealers fist priority was to sell the car well thats what special rates are for, not always are the average customers kept in mind when they design these programs but most all dealers have this posted all over the dealership and the cars (come out from under your rock) not to mention the millions of dollars the manufacturer spend on advertising these rates. Will all customers qualify?

Unfortunatly no but most do. As I have said in MY posts get your financing arranged before you go to the dealer and after you pick the vehicle, if they get you approved on a special rate and its a better deal go for it.

OK stay with me we're on a run. So now we come to the part where you talk about point spread and backend profit. Here are the facts dealers do try to make a spread on points its actualy a common business practice in a lot of fields like credit cards, mortgages etc...(oh but we won't bitch about them) the truth is banks do limit the point spread and more and more banks are paying larger flat fees so the customer gets the buy rate (helps them retain thier customer base) by the way dealers do get paid a small fee on special manufacturer rates from $100.00-$200.00 depending on amt financed.



Your info and suggestions are flawed and bias you state go to the dealer and pick a car then go to yiour bank or credit union second. Well wrong again the consumer should go to thier bank first to get qualified this way they know what range to pick from and the dealer second. Next get the vehicle check buy YOUR mechanic not thiers to make sure its in good shape if a dealer says no you can't then maybe thats not the dealership to do business with.(one of the signs I mentioned earlier) Get a history of the vehicle thier are many sources carfax for one. Get all promises in writing dealers have a form for this its called a WE OWE.(if they wont put promises in writing thats another sign)



Stick your responses are not focused or thought out. They do not give good usable advice in most cases although your intentions are good YOU my friend are a loose cannon (sounds like another quote ) what do you think Ed.



You seem to have a personal vendetta to fufill. My feeling is you bought a car once and thought you got a great deal then one day you got a job selling and didn't do well maybe got screwed on a paycheck, but when you saw how the unscupulous dealer you worked for was robbing customers your first thought was them bastards got me too and when you got fired that was all you could take. Then you found this site and said to your self, self I can spew all kinds of inacurate crap in here and be a GREAT big THORN in all those dickheads asses, and made it your mission to harass every dealer you could no matter what, and that is wrong you have lowered your self to thier level and heres why.

You use the guise of helping people who have been wronged and yes that is horrible, but you are using them also. When you could really help them by giving them useful info not telling them to fax other dealers thier report don't you think they end up in the trash or not to buy warranties because they suck or credit life because its crap well thats not true for some people and in some situations these are valid products with value,YES there are some warranties that aren't worth the paper thier writtin on but thats where you should do some research and inform them on what kinds are good or bad.



You incite them by telling them ALL DEALERS and MANAGERS are theives YES some are and the buyer MUST BEWARE but not all are, some are honest businessmen trying to feed thier families like everyone else.

We live in AMERICA with free enterprise all business's must make a fair profit to stay alive. I agree and practice that it should be done ethicly and professionaly and have pride in the fact that, that is how I conduct my business as well as many others I know.

If your wish came true and all dealers were closed down and banks also where would you buy your transportation ? Where would you keep your money? I'm writing this because I do wanna help so I offer this if you don't know or are not sure about somthing e-mail me i'll help you but get a grip FOCUS and answer the consumers questions not spew undisciplined crap!!!!!!!!!!

In closing let me say this. Like the response above I will not call you an IDIOT, but I will say that you are not the sharpest tool in the shed. So go home tonite and give a lot of thought about what you can do to REALLY HELP THESE FOLKS, and who you want to be STICK BOGART or THE GREAT THORN choose one and be more professional in giving advice.





HELP SOLVE THE PROBLEM NOT FUEL THE FIRE.


TO THE CONSUMERS GOOD LUCK AND BE CAREFULL

By writing such a long rebuttal, disagreeing with only one person, I feel that you are being somewhat hypocritical. Instead of rebutting Bogart's comments, why not do exactly what you have suggested, and offer some useful advice directly to consumers? It seems to me that using your time in this manner would be much more effective than writing a rebuttal such as the one posted above.

Does it really matter if what Bogart suggests is the absolute best course of action? Personally, I do not think so; especially since I am quite sure that his suggestions have in fact assisted a few people. Bogart is at least trying to help, and that is much more than I can say for many. In your rebuttal, you lay in to Bogart, but you never offer any useful suggestions, ..and you call your self the Buyers Advocate?

Please, spend your time offering advice directly to the consumers; do not go after the other people who are trying to help. Doing so serves no legitimate purpose, and more importantly, it never reaches the people who need help the most.

M. Steven Papi, Associate Editor
badbusinessbureau.com, llc

OK, Mr. Buyers' in Texas, here is my response to you and everybody that does not like what I am trying to stand for.

The very first thing I want to say to Mr. Buyers in San Antonio Texas is that I, Stick Bogart, have never been fired from any car dealer that I have been employed at, ever!

I am also willing to send to you a copy of my CSI ability so you can see that I was concerned about the customer.

No, I do not have the best writing ability as you can see. I currently have been playing with Microsoft Word trying to improve my writing ability. This way I can bring a much better report or response to people who file a report. As the EDitor of the Rip-off Report told me, "I have a lot of valuable knowledge to offer the consumer, any consumer complaining will have to get over it".

It seems to me that you seem to not like the fact that deception in the auto industry is being exposed, I feel it's about time that the inside scoop on deception be out there for one and all to read.

In my hands right now I have a recent newspaper add from a local Arizona car dealer. The car dealer that had this published is a car dealer that caters to unfortunate consumers that have some speed bumps in their credit past.

Now after reading what you posted, it seems to me that you have been in the car business, or are in it right now. If this is true, then you and I both know that consumers with some credit troubles in their past will not have an Isaac
score of 750. You and I both know that a 750 is GRADE A paper that will hang in any bank!

That being said, plase tell me why would any car dealer that caters to consumers that have poor credit, have a disclaimer in their add that states for a car buyer to get the advertised special, they must have a Fair Isaac score of 750.

I will tell you why. Because this dealer wanted to create a "LOOP Hole" to get out of what they are advertising. In my eyes this is a clear way of trying to lead the lost or uninformed to their dealer ship with printed hope.

Here in my hands I have a Infiniti dealer's disclaimer. It says that for the car buyer to take advantage of their special the buyer must have a Fair Isaac Score of 700.

Sounds like the Infiniti dealer is trying to be up front knowing that consumers that want to look at an Infiniti will more than likly have a high
score, and the dealer that caters to people with bad credit is trying to play games so their F&I department can sock em" with a high interest rate after the sales department gets the buyer to fall in love with the car.

Answer this for me Mr. Unnamed. Why is it that car dealers, mortgage brokers and banks can print off a copy of the consumers credit report that reveals the consumers "profile summary, the consumer's Fair Isaac Score and their total percentage of revolving available?

But the consumer in no way shape or form even if they want to pay for it, can't get a copy of the same credit report? CAN YOU TELL ME WHY ?

I will tell you why. This is a clear way for banks, mortgage brokers and car dealers to have another way to make more profit on each and every customer that they deal with if the consumer does not know how it all works. Secrets will help increase profit!

Mr. UN named do you know what your Fair Isaac Score is? Have you ever tried as a consumer to get a copy of your Experiean/TRW credit report that has all of this on it?

If you have not tried, I urge you to do so, and get a copy for your own records.
You will soon see what I am talking about.

I am willing to tell consumers what I know, and I know at the same time that I need to work harder on my writing ability so that I am better at helping car buyers. I also know that I need to stay focused when trying to help consumers.

Mr. Unnamed in Texas, one reason that I am doing this is because I worked real hard at a local Toyota dealership in Phoenix to make an honest living. It seemed so strange that this dealer felt that all documents were "TOP SECRET" All of The F&I managers all seemed to not want to show their sales people NOTHING until certain things had taken place.

While working for Bell Road Toyota, I sold a very nice woman a new 4 Runner and took her FREE AND CLEAR Toyota ALL Trac mini van in on trade. If I put this lady in a lease and took in a free and clear mini van that should have had an ACV of at least $10,000 bucks. Tell me how I got a mini voucher! Do you even know what a Mini Voucher is?

I feel That Bell Road Toyota Likes to FLOAT THE FRONT-END gross to the back. I feel that they do this to their "Green Pea's so they can increase the over all profit for the dealership.

When I started selling cars I started at Bell Road Toyota, so you could have called me a "green Pea" at that time. (auto dealrs Lingo)

Not once at any other car dealer that I worked for after Bell Road Toyota did any of the F&I people or any sales managers hide ANY documents pertaining to a car deal that I put together. Not Once!

I also FEEL that they hire a bigger percentage of green peas so they can do this without being noticed.

If you work in a sales position for and business that sells to consumers you should be able to see all documents before, during and after the point of sale. Not at Bell Road Toyota when I worked there. This is my opinion! I have taken some time and called Bell Road Toyota and Recorded the calls and have had a few of their current employees tell me that they have seen some strange and dishonest things going on.

One lady tells me she has felt this is been going on for a long time. She, in our recorded conversation she told me that she hears this all of the time. She told me that many times she has heard of sales people being really upset after getting their pay vouchers.

Seeing a gross sheet right after the deal is done and seing the pay voucher after the car deal is done and "Strange things" happen is a big difference in one's pay.

Next, I want to ask you this question? In my hand I have a disclaimer where the add says "We cannot be responsible for errors in typography or photography errors" Why do you think this is worded this way?

Who is responsible for typo's and photo errors? If the dealer and the newspaper both are not responsible for typo's, then who's feet can the
consumer hold to the fire?

This is in my opinion a way for car dealer to past out a false sense of hope and then remove it from the buyer after the buyer comes to their car lot.

Newspapers in my eyes help the car dealers bring deception to the buyers. Mr. No name in Texas, I ask you to go to any better Business bureau you want and ask to read some complaints on any car dealer you want.

I do not feel that the BBB is really on the consumers side. I feel that the BBB provides consumers a false sense of honesty. On the other hand, I feel that the Rip Off Report lets consumers post a UN edited report so consumers
can be the real judge as to a business having the ability to be honest.

Yes, it is true that you and others will read something that you will not like or agree with, But if a small bit of what you do not like will help a consumer in the future, what is the big deal? ..and why hide this valuable information? !!

When I post a response, I try to help the consumer the best that I can. I know that I need improvement just like you and everybody else on this planet.

I welcome your thoughts and opinion if it will help me improve my ability to help consumers.

Yes, it is true that I seem like I am trying to stir the rats nest and make waves. I feel that newspapers and TV news stations will not tell the true story of consumers problems with car dealers or trouble that a consumer is having in the auto industry because the Media get most of all of their advertising money from car dealers.

Mr. No Name in Texas I truly hope that you do not feel that I am attacking you, I am not. What I am trying to do is respond the best way that I can so you can understand where I am coming from.

If you read in the future something where a person is bashing me or attacking
me, they just might work for a car dealer.

Asfar as the recorded conversations that I have with Bell Road Toyota's current employees, I will only release copys to media with GUTTS

I proudly post my name
Stick Bogart

I applaud you wanted to keep consumers from getting their heads taken off, but what I dont understand is how are all business to survive without markup? I bought a camera at a best buy and the next day saw the same camera at another store for $40 less. Should I write in that I was ripped off? I guess I'm asking you if we are all to buy from monolpolized machines at prices set by our government or do you own a car lot where paying for inventory and staff comes out of your pockets and not the consumers? Every aspect of sales is live by what you sell. I am in the F&I business and I eat very well, but I see no difference between what I do to make a living vs. others. Ever see the markup in furniture/appliance warranties? All banks have max advances so extreme grosses are not very common. I contracted a deal today where the person made $30,000 a month, (job title-- childrens toy sales??)

So once again... Everyone needs transportation, are you proposing cars get sold @ cost or will you fight the utility companies for free utilities and have non-paid machines run our auto industry?