PNC Bank 23 NSF Fees in 7 Days! Internet

I would imform these telephone bankers that I am fixing to close this account and go to another bank. I had the same problem with Chase . When my bank was WAMU but I had no problemms with them but when Chase bank took them over I had problems big time so I closed my account and went to Regions.

I wills just give you some advise on how to handle your account.  Because all banks process transactions the same way, the same thing will happen again if you change.

First STOP all Automatic Deductions from your Debit Card, especially if you keep low balances and they are not at a set date.  I don't have EZPass but our equivalent has a billing option where they send you a statement when you need to replenish your account.  You then can make one-time payments with no Auto-Deduction.  It will take a bit more work for you, but it will avoid these type of surprises.

Next if you happen to overdraft you need to immediately stop taking money out of your account until you are 100% positive that all debits, checks, and fees have been POSTED to your account.  Hopefully you have a check register that would help you keep track of this, and yes it may take up to a week.  If you do something like deposit money and then immediately go back to using your debit card you are not giving time for the deposit to post, thus getting more OD fees.  Again for this you need to know your banks funds availability guidelines.

As for declining Debit Card purchases, they CAN NOT decline a previously authorized transaction.  So once you made those 9 purchases they can not go back after the fact and just decline them.

I'll leave it to other people who will post about how this is mostly good advise and they agree with you that it should be illegal.  In fact they will tell you about Legislation that died over 2 years ago never making it out of committee in Congress, how agencies are "taking comments" on this , or even their "Investigation" that they are hoping to get into a Class Action Suit.  The problem with all of that is that even IF(and that is a big If) anything comes of any of this, they won't just go back in time refund all of the fees you have ever received.  So it is best to take responsibility for YOUR account and make sure you do everything you can not to overdraft.

And many banks do this..you will really have to search for one that doesn't..or consider a credit union..

Anyhow..here is what has happened in a nutshell.

2 main factors cause all those ADDITION fees on top of the legitimate overdraft fee.

1) The banks re-sequencing of transactions....combined with..

2)Overdraft protection.

In essence the banks have figured out a way to "alter" time. No other institution that I know of can legally alter the time of anything in order to profit..but the banks have done it.

Now it would not matter in what order or sequence the bank "listed" your transactions on a statement..regardless of the reasons, be it to confuse us..or as a guise to better protect larger payments (which really is a crock because it processes the "largest" amount first..not necessarily a "large" payment) but for the fact that they manipulate the TIME of the transaction..and this is why even though all the other transactions had the funds at the time of the transaction..you were charged a fee as if you did not have the funds at the time. Mow how is this possible? It is NOT..it is IMPOSSIBLE, unless the bank has altered time itself.

So the best defense of course is to keep a register or accurate account of your money...check your online statement or call the bank often to check for fraudulant activity or unexpected payments..withdrawals etc..which would NOT be on your register.

What I did as a surefire way to "protect" me from overdrafting..is walked into my bank..and demanded in writing that I opt out of this type of overdraft protection..which the only thing it is protecting..is the fact that the bank will take money from my pocket..and put it into theirs (as you have found out)..the banks collected over 38 billion dollars in these types of fees alone..all due to addition fees that customers honestly and in good faith assumed their overdraft protection would prevent..it is a false sense of security and no better then a ponzi scheme.

Of coure another option is to burn the debit card...get out of these banks..cash your paycheck once you are handed it..and keep that cash safely under your mattress where the bank can not manipulate and "hold" and post and alter out of your account and into their greedy pockets.

If you want to read similar reports..some with other suggestions and possible courses of action..type banks (Bank of America, Wachovia etc) into the search on the top right of this site..and read through some other rip off reports..

Best of luck.

except through your own inability to control your debit card usage; I mean you're just abusing yourself here.  To incur 23 OD charges means you used your debit card more than 23 times in 7 days.  That is by far and away the most incredibly irresponsible act of money mismanagement I've read on this board, and believe me I've read some unbelievable stories here.  If you live paycheck to paycheck and can't afford $828 in fees coming from your account, you should never use a debit card to buy anything ever again.  

First, banks don't make money off of resorting.  They make money off of people using a debit card more than 23 times in 7 days.  Evidence more than 10 years old bears this out.  Fees increased 300% after the invention of the debit card; they only increased by 10% after resorting was implemented.  Moreover, there's no way in the example you provided that you would even know what the balance on your account is when you use a debit card so often - the reason is that your available balance (which is what the bank uses to determine overdraft charges) isn't anywhere near what your account balance is - as typified by your statement:

"I can't see a negative balance to figure out where this nightmare started."

No kidding.  You may NEVER see your balance as negative because OD fees are NOT based on account balance; they're based on your available balance.  You may have to actually go back months to reconstruct what happened before you'll ever figure it out.  Just another lovely consequence with debit cards.

On top of that, your other statement, "(we all know how they hold items to be paid and it can take a week)" is another example of your complete ignorance regarding the way your debit card works.  So let me explain it to you:  when you swipe your card at the merchant to buy whatever it is you're buying, the bank records the charge as pending UNTIL your merchant verifies the transaction.  It can take your merchant one week or so to verify the transaction - at which point the money comes out of your account.  By holding the transaction as pending, the bank is protecting you from any fraudulent activity on your account.  Imagine that!!

Finally, all of this is perfectly legal; it's been taken to court and the bank won.

If you truly want this to stop, the only reason you will EVER use your debit card again is to take money from an ATM.  That's it.  If you keep a register and stick to checks and cash, this problem will not happen to you again.

Been a while my neighbor in Cali. Seems once again we both want to help. I just respectfully feel you only see one side of the coin. Granted you are correct and your advice is indisputable and sound..but are either of the following statements false??

1) If the poster had the opportunity to opt out of "overdraft protection" that the additional fees would never have been able to occur in the first place.

2) If the poster banks did not against his understanding re-sequence the processing of transaction from highest to lowest, the all those additional overdraft fees would not have occurred in the first place.

Sure it is reasonable to tell someone is they can't or shouldn't use their debit card as they wish for convenience and their right to..but that advice puts absolutely no blame on the bank for making it so easy to incur overdrafts..and the accompanying avalanche of fees. Now I do agree with you that the poster is using the card too much for many small transactions..but how is that in itself "abuse". If the poster was using his card the exact same way..but never had had all those additional fees..that apparently was unaware would occur..we wouldn't be here now having this discussion.

I don't feel it is anyone's place to tell someone else how to use their cards..or how many times is to many or constitutes abuse..but I do agree for this particular poster..does need to take some serious action to change the way he is using the card..especially now that he knows what will happen...but even with that said..I do not believe in any way excuses the bank for what it is doing to so many.

Once again I do believe you give good advice..and I agree for this person it will help..but I do not put all the blame on the customer...the bank shares some.

When you stated "the banks don't make money off resorting", I can't agree to that..in a sense it is no more then word play. Sure, resorting on it's own will not make the bank money..but the issue is combined with overdraft protection..which the bank does not have you sign for that service..and does not give the customer an opportunity to opt out of when joining the bank..is what makes them tons of money..in the event of an overdraft. It is very misleading..and the only one who is actually protected by it..is the bank. It is a false sense of security for many..as we read through these reports coming in daily. Some apparently were not even aware they had OD protection and wonder why the bank did not decline the transaction that caused the overdraft..and additional fees for previous transactions that were covered. Do you not see my side to this at all? It is simple logic.

You choose to place ALL the blame on the consumer..and the debit card..but none on the institution that provides it..encourages it's use and then encourages online banking only to create more confusion with holds and authorizations and manipulations and posting and lord knows what..it can be overwhelming..and many are not aware of any of this until they are hit. So why does the bank not explain all this before a card is issued? Well why would they..38 billion reasons perhaps? Comon now Jim.

I have seen you state on a few reports..

"By holding the transaction as pending, the bank is protecting you from any fraudulent activity on your account."

I still don't get how this works. If the merchant is a crook..would he not authorize the charges anyhow? And regardless...if the customer picked this up even as pending..and you told the bank about it..as far as I know is all they would do is tell you to file a dispute..and then wait 30 days or however long before it is sorted out..which in some cases is indefinitely. They will always try to blame the customer first.and always arrange things to their benefit..be it holds, deposits, checks or withdrawals. You know this Jim.

Next I see you all the time state this...

"all of this is perfectly legal; it's been taken to court and the bank won".

Okay..it may be legal..now...but do you really think it is perfect? Perfect for the banks well being maybe. And you sometimes FAIL to mention the other cases where the banks have settled. You also fail to mention..or fail to believe that it is possible to get any legislation passed because it has not in the past. So you believe that throughout all of American history..not a single class action that had not been won in the past..had never won later..or that any legislation that had died in committee, never later in the future passed and new laws were enacted? comon Jim..you know better, I can tell you are quite an intelligent gentleman.

Your last statements...

"If you truly want this to stop, the only reason you will EVER use your debit card again is to take money from an ATM.  That's it.  If you keep a register and stick to checks and cash, this problem will not happen to you again."

Very good advice..couldn't agree more..except would you bet that this would NEVER happen again? Perhaps the poster would not incur the large number of fees from lots of small transactions..but there is no way to promise overdrafts and related fees will never happen just from using a register and taking out cash...do I need to list again many of the possible scenarios?

Not quite sure why Jim seemed to take my post so personally or felt he was within his right to TRY to shame me. I find it interesting that he used some of the EXACT same phrases that the bank did.

First, I have had this account with PNC for 12 years. And in those 12 years, I have never bounced a check up until 6 months ago. Why? Last year my husband lost his job and took a new one at $12K less. When you only make $50K, that's 24% and that's a lot. But we were just ok, making it, but not very comphy and had to take $ out of savings for things like home and vehicle repair. Fast forward to January of this year - my company forced all employees to take a pay cut and no raises, plus they raised our health insurance costs. At that point, we were paycheck to paycheck, literally.

10 weeks ago, he lost his job again. It took unemployment 5 weeks to send us the first check.

So, Jim, instead of personally attacking me and my abilities or, in your opinion lack thereof, AND, since you seem to know everything, maybe explaining things to me in a more civil manor would have been the human thing to do.

Ronny writes : "..but are either of the following statements false??

 1) If the poster had the opportunity to opt out of "overdraft protection" that the additional fees would never have been able to occur in the first place. "

   Yes. I have explained why that statement is false.   Opting out of overdraft protection can potentially reduce the number of fees (depending on how the consumer uses the card), but it cannot prevent an overdraft from occuring.    Your statement would only be true if the debit system could be relied upon to submit absolutely accurate numbers for pending transactions.   You and I both know that it cannot.  Things like $1 holds for fuel purchases and restaurant holds that do not include tips are just two examples.

   Accurate use of a register is the only real way to avoid paying OD fees.

if a customer uses a check register and sticks to checks and cash.  What will happen in that case is that when it does happen - then the fault really lies only with the consumer and nowhere else - just as it did before the use of the debit card.  It will also reduce significantly the amount of overdraft fees, which would be the intent anyway of doing this.  More importantly, it teaches through real life the practice of real money management.  When you look at a register and see what you really have to spend....you manage what you have.  So when the person who does overdraw the account sees the register and says, "well, I incurred one overdraft fee...ooops", the reality will be that the customer incurred...tada...one overdraft fee.

I've already explained how keeping a debit as pending protects the consumer; I won't bore anyone else with it.

I'm sorry if we end up back to paper instead of electronic transactions, but it's clear some people aren't capable of managing it...so let's just have them devolve.  Let them stay with such things as checks and cash.  This OP needs to be one of those people...I mean 23 overdrafts in 7 days is prepostrous and she complains about the bank being at fault?   I want to know what her responsibility is to this - besides all of it.

I stated...

 
"If the poster had the opportunity to opt out of "overdraft protection" that the additional fees would never have been able to occur in the first place. "

 You replied...

  "Yes. I have explained why that statement is false.   Opting out of overdraft protection can potentially reduce the number of fees (depending on how the consumer uses the card), but it cannot prevent an overdraft from occuring.    Your statement would only be true if the debit system could be relied upon to submit absolutely accurate numbers for pending transactions.   You and I both know that it cannot.  Things like $1 holds for fuel purchases and restaurant holds that do not include tips are just two examples."

If you had read my my statement more carefully..you would note that I never implied it would prevent an overdraft...I state that the "additional" fees would not have occurred. And you know this is true. Most people know when they overdraft..and know that they have "overdraft protection"..a false sense of security. So yes..there is some neglect/ignorance perhaps on their part for not knowing how the setup works..and I am sure the bank did not make it clear..but this is the crux of 99% of these reports..these are not people that are asking for a free ride..or asking how to prevent an overdraft per say (they were well aware in most cases), nor asking for the bank to refund any legitimate overdraft fees, but did not understand the way this so called "protection" works for the bank once combined with re-sequencing and other associated tactics used to maximize fees, not to mention encourage overdrafting..is this not apparent to you?

As far as the restaurant tips...I agree that NO ONE should EVER trust a debit card in that instance..I myself have fallen victim..more then once. The dollar hold thing for gas I do not understand..have never seen that before and I have lived in 5 states in this country. However IF I use my debit card for gas..I never just say "fill er up" and hand some idiot my card at the counter..I walk in and say "15 dollars please"..never had a problem.

And the thing is as well...those type of circumstances YOU brought up (the gas hold...tips etc)..these are some of the things that can cause a lower income person with a low balance paycheck to paycheck type to incur an overdraft...and this is the kind of thing that makes a perfectly accurate register useless..and why the defense to "keep a register" that the bank uses when we tell them our complaint...is not 100%..it is a cop out.

Now in your other reply...I agree with what you say. But would not what I stated cut down on all the additional fees as well? I mean why does the bank offer..well not just offer but literally sneak in this type of "overdraft protection" without asking us if we want to opt out,....when even according to you..is useless. Since your only defense appears to be to keep a register and not even use the debit card..what is the point to overdraft protection then??? I mean even a moron can tell that implies that overdrafts are going to occur..am I wrong??  Please now Jim.

 

The first part of my last reply was actually to Flynrider..not Jim. I goofed.

Jim, you are the most insulting person I have ever come across in life and I feel sorry for both your friends and family.

I have owned this checking account with PNC for 12 YEARS and NEVER had an overdraft charge until 6 months ago. Without going into to much details, in 2008 my husband took a 24% pay cut and I incurred a little over $8K in medical bills. (Between the medical bills, car repairs and major home repairs/replacements for appliances that died, our savings was depleted.)

Fast forward to January where I not only took a pay cut, but our health insurance rate went up, so I lost more than just the pay cut. Fast forward one last time to 9 weeks ago when my husband lost his job. In 9 weeks, unemployment paid my husband a total of $837. That’s it.

Now, since I am a good little monkey and pay my bills on time, I called our creditors to inform them of the situation and they were all fantastic. We are not at a point where we are living paycheck to paycheck and keeping VERY close tabs on our account.

A week ago, both EZPASS and ChesMont Disposal decide it’s time to pay-up. EZPASS was a $70 refill and ChesMont, for $89 claims my husband authorized back in June, quarterly automatic debits. My husband says that he had called to pay them over the phone and never authorized auto pay. Their word against ours.

Now, those two items come out on the 8th without our knowledge and we are officially in the hole, but only for a couple of bucks. We think we’re fine and continue to use our debit cards (10 times in 4 days for 2 people). The bank pays everything and we get our first 10 NSFs.

Thursday, my husband’s unemployment check of $712 comes in. We think we have that money, not knowing that we’ve lost $360 to fees and the other 2 charges. We now have $193, but our REGISTER is showing $717.

The weekend comes and so does gas, train pass for the following week, grocery store/COSTCO, lunch with my Mom at Taco Bell (she has Alzheimer’s and every week says she hasn’t had tacos in FOREVER – so cute), poochie food, dry cleaner’s, home depot, pep boys, pharmacy, etc. No eating meals out except for Taco Bell (you know, being my hubby is on unemployment and all).

Sunday rolls around and we decide to go to a car show. Cheap entertainment. I go on-line to double check the register and make sure we didn’t miss a charge and see a NEGATIVE balance of $455. I’m both shocked and devastated.

Now here comes Monday morning. So, there are 10 debit transactions over the weekend as well as 3 small auto pays we were expecting. The 10 debits came out Monday morning, the auto pays were being held until that night. I took a watch to a pawn shop at lunch time and deposited $456.51 and that left us with a balance of 56 cents. That afternoon the 3 auto pays and 3 more NSFs come in and we are once again in the hole for $274 come Tuesday morning.

So, Jim – would you like to insult me more? Make me feel worse than I already do?

  First of all, I just wanted to point out that I am not Jim.

The $1 hold for gas is very common, at least in my area. It is there because a gas station does not want to piss off customers (and cause potential overdrafts) by submitting a higher amount. Some people by gas $5 at a time. Since the hold is placed at the card swipe, before the gas is pumped, the vendor must put in some amount for the hold, so most (at least around here) use $1.

"And the thing is as well...those type of circumstances YOU brought up (the gas hold...tips etc)..these are some of the things that can cause a lower income person with a low balance paycheck to paycheck type to incur an overdraft...and this is the kind of thing that makes a perfectly accurate register useless..and why the defense to "keep a register" that the bank uses when we tell them our complaint...is not 100%..it is a cop out."

  You've got me mystified there.  Those are exactly the types of transactions that will cause a person without an accurate register to overdraft, but will be no problem for someone who writes down the actual amount of the transaction in their register at the time of purchase.  My register knows that I made a $30 gas purchase when my debit card without overdraft protection will still allow me to charge that extra $29 and potentially overdraft.

" Now in your other reply...I agree with what you say. But would not what I stated cut down on all the additional fees as well? I mean why does the bank offer..well not just offer but literally sneak in this type of "overdraft protection" without asking us if we want to opt out,....when even according to you..is useless. Since your only defense appears to be to keep a register and not even use the debit card..what is the point to overdraft protection then??? I mean even a moron can tell that implies that overdrafts are going to occur..am I wrong?? Please now Jim. "

  Yes.  Removing overdraft protection can cut down on additional fees, which I stated.  My point is that it is not the cure.  People who continue to use online balances to determine their spending will still be in danger of overdrafting, even when they remove overdraft protection.   On the other hand, people who make the effort to accurately record their transaction will reduce the chance of overdrafting at all to near zero.  For someone living paycheck to paycheck, even one $39 overdraft fee can be painful (been there, done that).   My emphasis on keeping an accurate register is aimed at those people who can least afford to overdraft.  As I've tried to point out, there is really no substitution for this, given the way the banking system operates.

  While your primary approach seems to emphasize changing the system (a laudable goal), mine is to advise people how to best work with the system as it exists today.  While I agree that the current system is stacked against the consumer, I don't expect it will change anytime soon.

""" A week ago, both EZPASS and ChesMont Disposal decide it’s time to pay-up. EZPASS was a $70 refill and ChesMont, for $89 claims my husband authorized back in June, quarterly automatic debits. My husband says that he had called to pay them over the phone and never authorized auto pay. Their word against ours.

Now, those two items come out on the 8th without our knowledge and we are officially in the hole, but only for a couple of bucks. We think we’re fine and continue to use our debit cards (10 times in 4 days for 2 people). The bank pays everything and we get our first 10 NSFs. """

So, you KNEW you were in the hole from these two transactions but you continue to use your debit card?

This is how it all started. Between the 8th and the 13th you never checked your balance. If you had, you would have seen these transactions and been able to do something about it. The bank has done nothing wrong in this case, even ronny's resequencing nonsense wouldn't have helped you here. You overdrafted, and you kept overdrafting. My advice? Stop using your debit card for every little purchase you make. Withdraw cash for everyday purchases and use your debit card for bills and larger purchases. Keep a check register and double check it against the charges that are on your online account. Check your pending transactions daily to make sure no one is forcing anything through.

The bank will not remove any of these charges unless you can prove that the initial two charges were fraudulent that started the whole chain reaction.

as for wanting a printed timeline. You will get that, on your next bank statement. I would go over it line by line and if it doesn't make sense to you, Then go to your bank and demand that they explain the charges to you as they come in.

Everything I told you Lizzie is true.  You have zero concept of properly managing your funds.  In all of the years I've been on ROR, I have never come across anyone who used a debit card more than 23 times in 7 days.  Nobody!  I don't even know too many people who use a credit card 23 times in 7 days.  It doesn't matter the situation you describe; in fact, it's totally irrelevant!!  More than that, the advice I and others have given you in 100% solid.  If you're insulted by what I told you, you should be more insulted at what you did to yourself.  If you aren't more upset at yourself by what your did to yourself....then you will never learn from this.

In fact, your situation is EXACTLY why you should never use a debit card and why your use of a debit card led you into the mess you're in today.  Debit cards should NEVER be used by people who either don't understand or can't afford the fees associated with them.  A debit card is like spending cash, so if you lose income or lose cash for whatever reason - a debit card doesn't help you.  It only hurts you.

Don't make this issue about me and insults.  This has nothing to do with me.  This has nothing to do with a bank.  It has everything to do with you and the way you mismismanage your money.  There is a lesson here, but I don't know if you'll learn from it.  If you keep making this about me, you won't.  If you make this about how you lost over $800 to a bank through my own mismanagement of a debit card and how it should never happen again, then you're on the right track.

Seems that no matter how I explain the banks part in all this...that there will always be some..or a lot of insults and belittling of the VICTIM. Not to mention differences in opinion, different experiences..and comprehension issues.

I too would be satisfied if simply telling the customers they are irresponsible with their finances, don't know how to use a debit card..and a register is the answer..and perhaps in some..but not all cases, this is a solution. But it is only a band aid..the cure is in the banks playing fair..and changing some policies. This problem is wide spread..and will continue UNTIL something is done..because lets face reality...the way the bank has it set up..there will always be a consistent influx of victims, and even if the particular solution in some cases was a register, it won't matter a fart..because the damage was already done.

I got an email from my mom today asking me if I have been reading all this stuff in the news about "what happened to me a while ago" with the banks overcharging on overdrafts. She is in NYC, I am in LA..word is spreading quickly..my job here is almost done..then it's on to the courts and hopefully to congress this time..if not..we will do it again. this is the worst time for our "trusted" banks to be ripping off and duping and fleecing the poor and lower income..the economy NEEDS this money right now...it needs to be in circulation..not in the banks pockets..money is too scarce right now..and the scheme has been playing into the banks hands long enough...we are fed up.

I came on this site to see if other people had similar situations with PNC Bank and write about it. I certainly did not come here to be insulted and ridiculed by complete strangers who assume the worst without knowing anything at all about me.

I was completely honest on this web-site because I have nothing to loose; there was no need for me to fabricate any of what I've written.

I will no longer be back to defend myself from these verbal attacks because no matter what I write, people like Jim and Ashley will still try to shame me. And no one has that right.

I can relate...I had NINE overdraft charges in 3 days....and could do nothing about it.  According to my account online i never became in the negative until PNC took 3 consecutive overdraft charges..then it spiraled out of control from there.  I was completely and absolutely helpless...they might as well have taken a million dollars from me...im a single mom and when my 2 week check gets deposited monday it will be gone...all going to overdraft charges....it is very frustrating to talk to 3 different people and they are all seeing a different version of my account than what I am looking at.  I will be closing my account asap and filed a complaint with the better business bureau....