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Report: #227257

Report: Propay

Reported By: (Atlanta Georgia)

Propay ripoff Dishonest Freaudulent non-fee reinbursment Orem Utah

... ProPay does inform users of fees withheld

2Author 5Consumer 0Employee

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Propay

500 E Timpanogos Parkway
Orem Utah 84097
U.S.A.
Phone: 801-852-4100
Web Address:

Category: Credit Card Processing (ACH) Companies

Submitted: Tuesday, December 26, 2006

Last posting: Thursday, May 24, 2007

I have been using Propay for about a year but today was an eye opener!

I sold an item on eBay for 499.00, the buyer paid with CC via Propay. The buyer asked to return the item and I agreed. After he returned it to me I issued almost a full refund (minus shipping).

Now here is the issue, Propay charged me $16.60 for the $499 transaction. But did not refund any of the fees once the refund was given PLUS added .35 cents fee. I then used the online and here is the conversation...
A customer service representative will be with you shortly. ProPay's Secure Live Chat is available weekdays from 6:30am MT to 7pm MT. We appreciate your patience.
ProPay's Privacy Policy www.propay.com/legal/privacy.aspx
You have been connected to Nancy R.
Nancy R: Hi there! Thank you for contacting ProPay. How can I help you?

Tyrone: Hello, I did a refund but the fees were not refunded
Nancy R: How long ago did you initiate that refund?
Tyrone: 12/22/2006
Tyrone: today
Nancy R: If I can get the e-mail address of your ProPay Account, I'll be better able to help.
Tyrone: cpuparts@******.***
Nancy R: The funds were sent back. It may take the card issuing bank several days to process the refund.
Tyrone: no not the funds to the customer
Tyrone: the fees I paid on the $500
Tyrone: the $16.60
Nancy R: I'm sorry, I still don't understand.
Tyrone: Propay charged me $16.60 to process the $500 charge
Nancy R: Yes. That sounds about right.
Tyrone: I refunded most of the trans, but I did not get back the the processing fees
Nancy R: Because the card was still processed, we will not be returning the processing fees.
Tyrone: WHAT!
Tyrone: show me where in the EULA does it say that!
Nancy R: I'm sorry, what is EULA?
Tyrone: End user license agreement'
Nancy R: Have you read through our Payment Services Agreement?
Tyrone: Yes
Nancy R: I don't know if it will include that information specifically but I can tell you that because we are charged those fees by Visa, MasterCard, etc, and are not refunded, we also do not refund them. Let me do some research and I'll try to find the information you're looking for.
Tyrone: Every other service refund these amounts
Tyrone: you never mention anything about not refunding processing fees during a refund
Tyrone: even your help section says you only need the amount of the
Tyrone: transaction + .35 cents
Tyrone: nothing about not being refunded the procesing amount
Tyrone: Show me anywhere where it says that
Nancy R: I would be delighted to show that to you. It will take some time to locate. Could I e-mail you with the information as soon as it is found?
Tyrone: your help section says:
Tyrone: f you issue a full refund after the transaction has been processed and settled, or a partial refund at any time, the fee ($0.35) will not be refunded to you, and you will be required to have enough money in your account to process the refund. Transactions are processed each evening.
Tyrone: No,
Tyrone: you don't know it because it doenot exist
Tyrone: I demand a refund of the Fees
Nancy R:The fees are non-refundable. Have a nice day.

Tyrone
Atlanta, Georgia
U.S.A.

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REBUTTALS & REPLIES:

2Author 5Consumer 0Employee

Consumer Comment

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over reaction.

K - Provo (U.S.A.)

SUBMITTED: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 POSTED: Wednesday, December 27, 2006

I am also a customer of Propay!

To me it seems like she did not know the information and was trying to offer a solution and get you the information that you requested of her.

From a business standpoint i understand both sides. but look at it this way.

What is the reason you are keeping the shipping charge for your customer that wanted a refund?
you still provided a service that cost you money correct?

No look then at propay? you are a customer that is requesting a refund? It sound's like they are keeping there version of shipping fee's. Of course they probably have the ability to refund you. But if YOU had to refund every charge like that you would not make much money at all.

So i would say give Propay a chance because they are in business like the rest of us.

Update By Author

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The difference is...

Tyrone - Atlanta (U.S.A.)

SUBMITTED: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 POSTED: Wednesday, December 27, 2006

I tell my customers upfront in the listing that the shipping is not refundable. Propay did not, they did not mention a non-refund on fees on any document or screen. They are just making up rules as they go along.

That is a BIG difference.

What if every company just made up rules as they went along because they forgot to mention it in there agreements!

Consumer Comment

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Look at it from their point of view!

T - Payson (U.S.A.)

SUBMITTED: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 POSTED: Tuesday, January 02, 2007

I know a lot about credit card processing and I have worked for American Express so I know a lot about processing fee's. It isn't ProPay that charged you those processing fee's it is the credit card company. They probably charged you a little bit more than the credit card companies charge, but they are a business and just like all business they are in the business of making money.

So you shouldn't be blaming ProPay for not refunding those fee's, you should be blaming the credit card company. And as "K" said it is just like you not refunding the shiping and handleing.

Just think about it. We are all just trying to make a little more money.

Consumer Comment

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The real issue here

Dave - Jacksonville (U.S.A.)

SUBMITTED: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 POSTED: Wednesday, January 03, 2007

You sold an item on Ebay for $499.00. The person paid and received the item, then WANTED A REFUND. You gave them the refund... OK, Why did they want the refund in the first place? It kind of sounds like you misrepresented the item to begin with. Since it was an Ebay sale, (I've been selling on Ebay for 7 years), then most items are NOT returnable. Why else would they want a refund? You didn't say what the item was, but if the buyer made the mistake of ordering the wrong thing, then it is the buyer's fault. If it was damaged in shipping, then the insurance would handle it.

So, back to my theory, a misrepresented item is sold, and returned, and you're upset that Propay misrepresented their terms and conditions.... hmmm

Consumer Comment

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What other credit card processors refund Visa/MC fees?

Juliet - Birmingham (U.S.A.)

SUBMITTED: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 POSTED: Wednesday, January 03, 2007

Tyrone writes that every other (credit card processing) service refunds the processing fees.

Who are they?

I worked for Merchant Processing at a large bank, and no way did the merchants ever get refunded the processing fees.

Those fees are charged by Visa and Mastercard, for the biggest examples, and if you know how to get in touch with THOSE entities, I'd love to know that also. No one knew how to actually get in touch with those corporations.

This issue definitely did come up, and while the bank was very good about accommodating merchant requests, this was one they had no flexibility about, at all. They weren't just for under $17.00 either, they sometimes were for a couple of hundred dollars.

As far as the End User Agreement/Terms of Service, where is it stated that they WILL refund processing fees? Something not stated is a lot harder to prove than something stated.

Processing fees for items refunded are not typically refunded to the merchant.

Consumer Suggestion

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ProPay does inform users of fees withheld

Dan - Seattle (U.S.A.)

SUBMITTED: Thursday, May 24, 2007 POSTED: Thursday, May 24, 2007

The resolution to this alleged rip-off can be found in the Payment Services Agreement, also known as "PSA," that all ProPay customers agree to when they sign up.

The PSA can be found at this URL:

http://www.propay.com/legal/psa.aspx

Like many financial institutions, it can be a tedious document to read, but this paragraph helps us understand why fee's are not credited:

"A. Fees. You will pay to ProPay fees for services in accordance with the Exhibit A, the Pricing Disclosure Statement which is incorporated into this Agreement by reference. Such fees will be calculated and debited from amounts due to you under the ProPay Account concurrently with transaction activity..."

This means upon a successful transaction, you are immediately paying ProPay for said transaction. ProPay then deposits the amount owed to you into your account. This remaining amount is your "available funds."

Now let's move on to the FAQ, under the "Refund a Credit Card" section:

https://epay.propay.com/faq/faq_refund_a_credit_card.aspx

In short:

- You can refund a transaction with no fees for it's full amount if you do so before 2PM MST on the day it was processed.

- Refunds incur a fee of $0.35, in addition to the fee's already taken by ProPay for services rendered to you (as outlined in the PSA)

Financial instituitions are certainly known to have lots of legal-filled documents. As a business, consulting with an accountant, lawyer, or other confidant can be crucial with opening new accounts to avoid any unexpected "suprises."

Having over 5 years of experience in the merchant field, I can attest that ProPay is among some of the more individual-friendly companies -- but by the mere fact they take a percentage of your sales will always generate complaints -- whether warranted or not.