Mormon Church, Salt Lake Police Mormons, Mesa Police, Mayhem Part 4 of 4 Salt Lake City Utah

Ryan,

I hope you find that happiness that all people can find in the religion that is right for them.

If the Mormon church is where you land after your search then we will be richer for your addition.

Your spirit is truly the spirit I love in church.

To begin, I won't say whether or not I'm a Mormon, a non-Mormon or an "investigator" so as to make an objective statement. All I know is that when you (the saint) say that you are learning about the Mormon religion so that you can communicate with them, do you honestly think this is effective communication? Because ineffective communication may as well be no communication unless you know that odd person who actually listens when another badmouths or insults them. Really, do you think you are doing this out of love? Does this emulate the spirit of Christ when you treat others this way?

I guess I will blow my objective to conceal my status to the Mormon church to say this: I am seeking for a good, decent church to become apart of - not that the becoming of a church will save you, but it helps with many things. All I know is that If I found out what church or belief you associate yourself with, I would show you the same courtesy that you have shown the Mormons by assuming all of your faith acts as you do and keep myself completely separated from it. I do not want to be taught, as you obviously been taught, to belittle and insult another because of their beliefs. I promise you that only through the spirit of love will people be converted to the proper faith, which spirit I have not seen in you.

Justice does not consist of labeling a whole church for what one does. To "communicate on your [our] level ", as you said, does not include the behavior you have demonstrated. You yourself have said we do not come to your church to do this (but you say you wouldn't care if we had-funny) so don't play it off like your intentions are to communicate on our level.

To everyone else out there (Gregg) who can dare say that a women's role is subservient to mans, you are either a man who has no concept of the meaning of life ( not to mention you degrade your own mothers for having "wasted their time" birthing you and raising you) or you are a woman who feels like the gift of life, the miracle of creation and the raising up of children is not a noteworthy and glorious opportunity. The only thing that keeps life going - not businesses, invention, new ideas nor money or machoism, but the ability to produce life. Anyone who passionately embraces nature, biology or science would understand this and that if anything, women have a much greater responsibility that men and we are, in a sense, subservient to them.

So, to everyone out there who consider the Mormon church to be a cult, obviously don't have dictionaries in their homes. If they had, they would note that a cult, not only is a false religion ( yet everyone uses the term so loosely to read along the lines of Satan-worshipping or the like), but also "obsessive devotion to a person or principle". Hmm, sounds like most confessing Christians belong to a cult, if they "overly worship Christ". As for such high devotion to the cross, (SAINT) That would be considered a cult as well. Some people need to learn a little more on their own time rather than jump on the nearest stereotype (i.e. Mormonism is a cult). While I'm on the subject, a "Christian" is a believer in Christ - nothing more, nothing less by definition. Stop adding in your own definitions, stereotypes and allegations.

Moshe

You reminded me of something that so many Christians seem to conveniently overlook. Jesus, or Yeshua was a Jew. He was raised practicing Judaism, which seems to me that it should be awarded some kind of respect from even Christians.

I also am proud of my Jewish ancestry as it is. I actually research Jewish culture and Judaism to learn more about my ancestors. I am adopted so I don't have the benefit of being raised with this knowledge.

I assume the word you are speaking of is the word for tithing? It is good to know more Hebrew words, thank you for your input :)

It seems that the one thing that you inherited from us (you are really only a Jewish sect) is that we argue about the meaning of the scripture also.

To Emily, the word *in the original Hebrew* is "Ma'aser."

To Adrienne, your "bible" was translated to Greek thousands of years later. So lay off the Mormons. I am a Jew and proud of my heritage, but understand the oppression of the Mormons. They are closer to us than any of you other "pretend religions."

Your dogma of hatred fosters the violence upon the Jews from the KKK, and then pretend Jews have nothing to do with Christianity. These same people ironically lumped Mormons with us and killed them, just like they killed the Jews. It makes me wonder about your faith. Kinda reminds me of another religion in the Middle East.... hmmm

The King James version of the bible is not the "oldest version known."
There are various versions of the old testament that are hundreds, nearly thousands of years older, and much more accurate. Ther are also versions of the new testament that predate the KJV.

Good Luck in your studies.

John

There is no tithing in the Bible? Do you even ready it? I don't think so. Not only does the Bible talk repeatedly about tithing, but it also stipulates the amount of a tenth in several different parts. I know without references a lot of people will not believe me, so here goes; in King James Version, not the new one or another newer Bible, but the oldest Bible known you will read several references to the tithe in the following scriptures.

Genesis 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Leviticus 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's: it is holy unto the Lord.

Deuteronomy 12:6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks.

Deuteronomy 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

2 Chronicles 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Isreal brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.

Nehemiah 10:38 And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.

Nehemiah 12:44 And at that time were some appointed over the chambers for the treasures, for the offerings, for the firstfruits, and for the tithes, to gather into them out of the fields of the cities the portions of the law for the priests and Levites: for Judah rejoiced for the priests and for the Levites that waited.

Nehemiah 13:12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries.

Malachi 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

St Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgement, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

St Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.


But these don't tell you how much to pay right? They only tell you to pay it off your increase. Well the tenth is mentioned in the following scriptures.

Numbers 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the Lord, even a tenth part of the tithe.

Genesis 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Why aren't there more scriptures about the tenth? Because it was common knowledge, as it is in our church. We don't say we are going to pay our tenth, we say we are going to pay our tithing. To every member it is common knowledge how much that is.

Well that is all for today... looking up all those scriptures that "aren't" in the Bible sure took a long time. But I guess standing up to scrutiny is worth it.

The last time I checked, it was not up to us to judge others....That is between us and whatever God we believe in. Do I agree with other religions than mine? Not necessarily. But do I tell others what is right and wrong? No. What I do, say or feel is between me and God. What ever a Mormon chooses to do say or feel is between he/she and his/her God. As an example, do I believe in polygamy? No. Do I make a big stink about it??? NO. Does it affect me directly? NO. I leave it alone. I have opinions, but they are just that...

I say Live and Let Live...to each their own. I don't bother anyone and don't wish to be bothered. Why can't others do the same? If that was the case, their would be less crime, hatred and unjust in the world. Just my opinion...

The last time I checked, it was not up to us to judge others....That is between us and whatever God we believe in. Do I agree with other religions than mine? Not necessarily. But do I tell others what is right and wrong? No. What I do, say or feel is between me and God. What ever a Mormon chooses to do say or feel is between he/she and his/her God. As an example, do I believe in polygamy? No. Do I make a big stink about it??? NO. Does it affect me directly? NO. I leave it alone. I have opinions, but they are just that...

I say Live and Let Live...to each their own. I don't bother anyone and don't wish to be bothered. Why can't others do the same? If that was the case, their would be less crime, hatred and unjust in the world. Just my opinion...

The last time I checked, it was not up to us to judge others....That is between us and whatever God we believe in. Do I agree with other religions than mine? Not necessarily. But do I tell others what is right and wrong? No. What I do, say or feel is between me and God. What ever a Mormon chooses to do say or feel is between he/she and his/her God. As an example, do I believe in polygamy? No. Do I make a big stink about it??? NO. Does it affect me directly? NO. I leave it alone. I have opinions, but they are just that...

I say Live and Let Live...to each their own. I don't bother anyone and don't wish to be bothered. Why can't others do the same? If that was the case, their would be less crime, hatred and unjust in the world. Just my opinion...

I have to admit this has been an interesting read. I don't see any Rip-Off going on here. But it is fun to read anyway. I hate that Mr. Craft got attack/restrained/whatever. Though I have to admit that his method of proclaiming his faith/slamming the Mormans was a bit moronic.

I have met and known some very nice people that belong to the mormon church. However, I do think that it is interesting that many occult groups mention to their followers that the mormon church is a great place to be. I used to be very much involved in the occult myself. Several of my friends "hid" out in the mormon church.

They thought it was hilarious that much of the mormon faith mirrored our beliefs and our dealings. Granted I never went in there myself. But it is interesting food for thought when the LDS church is so highly respected by a group of satanists. Our thoughts were that it was a nice twisting of the "son of god". I am quite sure that most mormons are unaware of the similarities. I am also fairly sure that most of them have little or no knowlegde that many wiccans, satanists, and other occultists walk among them. Me? I accepted Christ as my savior 4 years ago.

Also, for the comment on churches being just buildings. You are partially right. The Church of Christ is actually a way of referring to believers in general. However, Scripture is very consistent in saying that we should spend time with one another. After all, it is by the way that we love one another that we will be recognized as His people. Also you might notice that most of Paul's letters were to specific churches (groups of believers). I'm also not sure which gospel that you are referring to when you began to talk about the first words of the gospel. The first message that Jesus preached when He began His ministry is showed in the following verse:

From that time Jesus BEGAN TO PREACH and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matthew 4:17

Incidently, it is also important to realize that the word repent (though often misunderstood to mean-ask for forgiveness) means to "change one's mind" This of course refers to the need to change one's mind about the previous concepts of the Messiah as preached by the Pharisees.

Lastly, you are 100% correct about the New Testament not mentioning anything about the necessity to tithe. However, it consistently mentions freely giving. Jesus makes it clear that our offerings are not measured by how much is given, but rather on how much we have left after we give. He also mentions that Christians are to give up their old lives to follow Him.

Okay I'm done I suppose.

I have to admit this has been an interesting read. I don't see any Rip-Off going on here. But it is fun to read anyway. I hate that Mr. Craft got attack/restrained/whatever. Though I have to admit that his method of proclaiming his faith/slamming the Mormans was a bit moronic.

I have met and known some very nice people that belong to the mormon church. However, I do think that it is interesting that many occult groups mention to their followers that the mormon church is a great place to be. I used to be very much involved in the occult myself. Several of my friends "hid" out in the mormon church.

They thought it was hilarious that much of the mormon faith mirrored our beliefs and our dealings. Granted I never went in there myself. But it is interesting food for thought when the LDS church is so highly respected by a group of satanists. Our thoughts were that it was a nice twisting of the "son of god". I am quite sure that most mormons are unaware of the similarities. I am also fairly sure that most of them have little or no knowlegde that many wiccans, satanists, and other occultists walk among them. Me? I accepted Christ as my savior 4 years ago.

Also, for the comment on churches being just buildings. You are partially right. The Church of Christ is actually a way of referring to believers in general. However, Scripture is very consistent in saying that we should spend time with one another. After all, it is by the way that we love one another that we will be recognized as His people. Also you might notice that most of Paul's letters were to specific churches (groups of believers). I'm also not sure which gospel that you are referring to when you began to talk about the first words of the gospel. The first message that Jesus preached when He began His ministry is showed in the following verse:

From that time Jesus BEGAN TO PREACH and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matthew 4:17

Incidently, it is also important to realize that the word repent (though often misunderstood to mean-ask for forgiveness) means to "change one's mind" This of course refers to the need to change one's mind about the previous concepts of the Messiah as preached by the Pharisees.

Lastly, you are 100% correct about the New Testament not mentioning anything about the necessity to tithe. However, it consistently mentions freely giving. Jesus makes it clear that our offerings are not measured by how much is given, but rather on how much we have left after we give. He also mentions that Christians are to give up their old lives to follow Him.

Okay I'm done I suppose.

I have to admit this has been an interesting read. I don't see any Rip-Off going on here. But it is fun to read anyway. I hate that Mr. Craft got attack/restrained/whatever. Though I have to admit that his method of proclaiming his faith/slamming the Mormans was a bit moronic.

I have met and known some very nice people that belong to the mormon church. However, I do think that it is interesting that many occult groups mention to their followers that the mormon church is a great place to be. I used to be very much involved in the occult myself. Several of my friends "hid" out in the mormon church.

They thought it was hilarious that much of the mormon faith mirrored our beliefs and our dealings. Granted I never went in there myself. But it is interesting food for thought when the LDS church is so highly respected by a group of satanists. Our thoughts were that it was a nice twisting of the "son of god". I am quite sure that most mormons are unaware of the similarities. I am also fairly sure that most of them have little or no knowlegde that many wiccans, satanists, and other occultists walk among them. Me? I accepted Christ as my savior 4 years ago.

Also, for the comment on churches being just buildings. You are partially right. The Church of Christ is actually a way of referring to believers in general. However, Scripture is very consistent in saying that we should spend time with one another. After all, it is by the way that we love one another that we will be recognized as His people. Also you might notice that most of Paul's letters were to specific churches (groups of believers). I'm also not sure which gospel that you are referring to when you began to talk about the first words of the gospel. The first message that Jesus preached when He began His ministry is showed in the following verse:

From that time Jesus BEGAN TO PREACH and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matthew 4:17

Incidently, it is also important to realize that the word repent (though often misunderstood to mean-ask for forgiveness) means to "change one's mind" This of course refers to the need to change one's mind about the previous concepts of the Messiah as preached by the Pharisees.

Lastly, you are 100% correct about the New Testament not mentioning anything about the necessity to tithe. However, it consistently mentions freely giving. Jesus makes it clear that our offerings are not measured by how much is given, but rather on how much we have left after we give. He also mentions that Christians are to give up their old lives to follow Him.

Okay I'm done I suppose.

I have to admit this has been an interesting read. I don't see any Rip-Off going on here. But it is fun to read anyway. I hate that Mr. Craft got attack/restrained/whatever. Though I have to admit that his method of proclaiming his faith/slamming the Mormans was a bit moronic.

I have met and known some very nice people that belong to the mormon church. However, I do think that it is interesting that many occult groups mention to their followers that the mormon church is a great place to be. I used to be very much involved in the occult myself. Several of my friends "hid" out in the mormon church.

They thought it was hilarious that much of the mormon faith mirrored our beliefs and our dealings. Granted I never went in there myself. But it is interesting food for thought when the LDS church is so highly respected by a group of satanists. Our thoughts were that it was a nice twisting of the "son of god". I am quite sure that most mormons are unaware of the similarities. I am also fairly sure that most of them have little or no knowlegde that many wiccans, satanists, and other occultists walk among them. Me? I accepted Christ as my savior 4 years ago.

Also, for the comment on churches being just buildings. You are partially right. The Church of Christ is actually a way of referring to believers in general. However, Scripture is very consistent in saying that we should spend time with one another. After all, it is by the way that we love one another that we will be recognized as His people. Also you might notice that most of Paul's letters were to specific churches (groups of believers). I'm also not sure which gospel that you are referring to when you began to talk about the first words of the gospel. The first message that Jesus preached when He began His ministry is showed in the following verse:

From that time Jesus BEGAN TO PREACH and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matthew 4:17

Incidently, it is also important to realize that the word repent (though often misunderstood to mean-ask for forgiveness) means to "change one's mind" This of course refers to the need to change one's mind about the previous concepts of the Messiah as preached by the Pharisees.

Lastly, you are 100% correct about the New Testament not mentioning anything about the necessity to tithe. However, it consistently mentions freely giving. Jesus makes it clear that our offerings are not measured by how much is given, but rather on how much we have left after we give. He also mentions that Christians are to give up their old lives to follow Him.

Okay I'm done I suppose.

What you have a complaint with is not the Church, but the legal system. And whether or not the judge is a christian, it bears no effect on the way he does his job or his standing in his church. If you have evidence that he has done his job poorly, then file a complaint with his state judicial review board. If he has done something unchristian or unethical, report that to his religious authority. Maybe he will be excommunicated.

The truth is, whether we have all the facts in this case or not, is that our judicial system leaves much to be desired. Guilty men go free, while innocent men get punished all the time. The fact that this is centered around someone speaking against a church, does not say anything for or against the church. It is circumstantial. A molesting catholic priest does not in my mind make the beleifs of the Catholic Church untrue, but means only that that individual Catholic was a molester and nothing more. Same principle applies. If Mr. Craft's civil rights were violated (which I do not know, and have not seen proof), then the blame falls on one or two individuals, namely a cop and a judge. It does not however fall upon a church, as neither the church membership was polled to gather a majority opinion, nor was the official representative for the church there to officiate in this man's case. Hence, your reports are mostly irrelevant, at least are in the wrong direction. You should be complaining about the government and not a religious institution.

By the way Webster defines the word "Cult" as follows:

Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

The main definitions of the word are not negative, however over time, it has gained a negative connotation through uneducated folk traditions. Every religion is a cult as the words cult and religion are synonimous. "care, adoration, to cultivate."

First of all, I love this web site! Thanks for bringing it to us!

The following is long and I hope it gets posted. There seems to be a lot of hate, misinformation and unconstructive backlashing going on about this subject. Here's my take on the whole thing...

**By the way. Where's the "rip-off" in all this? Have I missed something? Seems that this whole thing has gone in a direction not in tune with the site.**

NONE of you- LDS, Baptist, Catholic, etc.- are going to convince each other that you are right and they are wrong. It's just not going to happen.
People believe what they believe and that's just the way it is.
If anyone can have their beliefs changed based on the words of another, then your beliefs weren't all that strong to begin with.

That's also the beauty of this life and living it in the USA. We all have the free will to live and believe whatever we choose. We also have the freedom to express our opinions however we wish.
If that means you wish to quietly ignore the insults or rantings of others and go about your life in passive mode- more power to you. You're usually the bigger person and most secure with yourself. If you're one of those people who feels a strong need to vocally (and usually obnoxiously) try to get your point across. If you just feel an absolute need to go out in public and make a complete a*s of yourself by yelling and screaming and trying to convince the world that you are right and they're wrong- hey, that's your freedom!

Doesn't matter how you do it, that's your right.
On that same note though, along with those rights comes the responsibility of living with the consequences of exercising your right to protest. If you do it in a way that hampers another individual's right to learn, worship or otherwise excercise their freedoms, then you should expect to accept responsibility for your actions.
What do I mean by that? Let me just say that as kind and loving a person as I am, I absolutely will defend myself when someone else steps on my freedom or the freedom of those that I love. Whether that be my freedom to learn what I want, how I want, to worship my God, or any other freedom I am entitled to. I will defend my God, my family and my country. Even if I have to die doing it. That doesn't mean that I'm going to pound the snot out of anyone who has anything negative to say. It just means that if and when the time comes to stand up and protect my beliefs, I absolutely will. Without hesitation.
That, my friend, is my right. That is true faith in what you believe.
On the other hand, if I exercise my right to defend my freedoms, and in the process break the laws of the land, then I should expect to suffer the consequences of my actions.
It's a vicious cycle. If you work it that way.

Anyone who can't grasp the concept need only go into any Kindergarten classroom and read the poster "All I really need to know I learned in Kindergarten".

So why don't I use my freedom to go stand outside a Catholic, baptist or any other church with a megaphone and yell at those people?

1. I wouldn't want a mob of (and rightfully so) angry people exercising their freedom to pound me to nothing.

2. Growing up in the church I've been taught to respect the religious beliefs and rights of others.

3. I would probably be arrested- duh!

4. I have better things to do with my time.

Anyone who can have their beliefs changed simply by the words of a mere human are weak-minded and not truly in touch with the spirit.

Jerks, morons, thieves, liars, murderers, adulterers, con-artists, bullies, etc., etc., are abundant- no matter what religion or other institution they may or may not be involved in.

Yes, I am LDS. I was born in the church. In 32 years I have never known a man who is married to more than one woman- Mormon or not. My dad has been married to my mom (and only my mom) for 42 years. My grandfather was married to his wife (yes, only one) for 56 years. All my siblings are married to- you guessed it- one person! I myself am married to my highschool sweetheart. We've been together for 15 years and married for 10. I only have one wife and she is all I want (=
She is also, by the way, hispanic (according to some people- all mormons are bigots) and also happens to be Baptist.
In all my years in the church, I have never been taught that I must have more than one wife.
What I have been taught is that breaking the laws of the land and of the church are grounds for excommunication.

Sure, there have been cases of polygamists who call themselves mormons. There are those types of people in any religion. There are still entire communities of them around the country. There are also people who have created a "reorganised LDS church" that best suits their lifestyles. Much like the Taliban has corrupted the islamic faith.

As for the references that someone made saying that the D&C says plural marriage is a requirement- what? There are absolutely NO such references anywhere in the D&C. Anyone who has any question about it need only pick up a copy at any LDS bookstore and read it for themselves.
There are however many references to marriage in it:
D&C 131 2-4; New and everlasting covenant of marriage required for highest degree of celestial kingdom. (this is marriage in the temple one man, one woman.)
To strengthen that fact, read on.

To further dispute other false information;
Refer to the official declaration of D&C on pages 292-294.
Declaration 1 strictly forbids plural marriage by members of the LDS church.
Declaration 2 goes on to say that "All worthy male members of the church may be ordained to the priesthood WITHOUT REGARD FOR RACE OR COLOR".

Anyone who will listen to a vocal minority and take what they say as absolute truth without taking the time to accurately and fully investigate the claims themselves is none too bright.

Yeah, I know this is long winded, but I do have more to say.

I referred to the fact that I am married to a non-mormon. Is that against the rules?
No. Interfaith marriage is discouraged, and we can't go to the temple. But it's not forbidden.
I understand my eternal limitations if we never go to the temple... and sure, I hope my wife joins the church some day. But she's exercising her free will to worship any way she chooses. Hey, you can't help who you fall in love with!

My best friend since age 14 is a strong baptist. Why are we such good friends?
Because he respects my right to my religion and I respect his.

I also knew a mormon basher once. He spouted all the same nonsense about how mormons this and mormons that. He would also have everyone believe that all mormons are about is palygomy and have a God-complex.
This same guy was divorced 2 years later because of his numerous affairs with other women. I guess to him palygomy is bad, but cheating on your wife is better? Let's see, plural marriage. Bad. Plural sex partners while bound by marriage. Good.
To me, they're equally bad. To him... yeah, mixed values.

As for mormons not being Christian: when I kneel to to pray I certainly am not praying to Buddah or Allah! I pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ.
Not my own secret version of Him. There is only one Jesus Christ, and He is the same Jesus Christ who died for all of us.

As for why we don't worship the cross: Because we prefer to celebrate the living Christ.
If someone shot and killed one of your loved ones, would you take the gun that killed that loved one and hang it on your wall?
No! That would be repulsive. We choose not to worship the weapon of Christs destruction, but rather celebrate his accomplishment and the fact that he lives.

Look, there are corrupt people in every institution. That doesn't make the institution corrupt.
Anyone who has been wronged by someone from the mormon church, I'm truly sorry for you and embarrassed by their actions.
The mormon church has and will continue to grow IN SPITE OF the stupidity and misinformation and general wrongdoings of a small minority of individuals within and outside the church.
Why is that? Because people don't convert people with mere words. The spirit of God converts people to the truth.

So, what's my point? What do I hope to accomplish with these ramblings? Am I convinced that what I've said is any better than what anyone else has said?

I was just tired of this drama. Folks, don't base your opinions or beliefs on the words of a few loud and ill-willed people with personal vendettas.
If you want to know the truth about something, go to the right source.
If you had a plumbing problem in your home, would you call an auto-mechanic to fix it?
If you had a wiring problem in your car, would you call a landscaper to figure it out?
You get the point. If you want to know about the LDS church, go get a Book Of Mormon. And I'm not talking about one of those hack-jobs that's been edited by someone with bad intentions. Go to the source. Ask a mormon missionary for one. Ask them questions, run them through the ringer. Tell them you're not ready to join the church, but are investigating. Read the book cover to cover.
In the end, if you really want the truth it won't come from what "you've heard" from someone else. The truth will come when you ask God about it.
On that same note, if you have no desire to know about the mormon church- that's your right!
I'm assuming that if you're still reading this thread, then there must be some sort of curiosity.

As for myself... do I think I'm perfect? Not even close. I'm a short drop from the bottom and a long way from the top.
The best I can do is try to lead by example. To always be mindful of my actions and the affect they will have on others. To treat everyone with the same respect and dignity that I hope they'll treat me with. No matter what religion or race they are.

Now, I must get back to the point of this wonderful website and go fill out a few rip-off reports!

Churches are nothing but buildings.

The true Church of Jesus Christ is so much more. Not in the building made of wood and stone.

We don't need an institution between "Him" and us.

You see just us and God.

No priest, and no churches.

The first words in Jesus' Gospel are "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you." "Spit a piece of wood and I am there, "Lift a stone and you will find me."

There is nothing in the bible that says you must join a curtain church or curtain religion.

Therefore I say all churches and religion are man made.

There is nothing in the bible that states that Jesus ask for offering or 10% of your wealth. Jesus never mention that he wanted money or anything from us, so why is that churches today ask for money from us in order to teach the gospel of God.

Please feel free to respond back
[via this report]

A believer who does not condemn him self to a church, religion, or a cult.

Pride is only a sin when it is based on personal gain. Being proud of your race and your religion is not a sin. It is a sin to not stand up and be counted as His followers. We are proud to be counted as His. If you are not than you have further issues to resolve.

My brother Ken, so good to hear from you. I also am a minority. I am Native American. Funny enough I was also born in Salt Lake City and still have family there.

Keep the faith brothers and sisters.We shall not allow the negative actions of but a few to bring us all down.

"The Saint" is obviously flailing now to find negative to say about each member of the church who stands to defend it. Even his annonymous internet harassment will show his true colors.

I think that you would have this problem of people kicking your a*s wherever you go, Aint. It sounds like the brother would be within his rights to open up a extended-Mormon-family-size bottle of whoopass on your big mouth, and you'll be screaming for the cops to save you. Guess what? You'd be on your own, just you and your big hypocrite mouth! What he wrote sounded exactly like a threat, and you don't have the BALLS to do anything about it!

One wonders exactly how Ken would show someone who disagreed with the Mormon Church the "error of your ways." His statement that "you would need your 'god'" sounds like a threat, doesn't it? Clearly, speaking the truth in love, which is a Biblical mandate. [Yes, more sarcasm.] Better watch out, Ken. The FBI may be monitoring. Your statement is just the stuff Hate Crimes are made of. (It cuts both ways.)

Also, Ken says he's a proud black Mormon. Hmmmm... I read in the Bible in a few places that "God opposes the proud." But Ken is a righteous dude - I'll let him and God work that out.

As a righteous and proud black Mormon brother, your bigotry and intolerance would not get far at our congregation. We have personally cleaned up this wicked city, confiscating all the drugs and guns the wicked white devil has tried to force upon us. Were you to stand in front of our beautiful Nubian Mormon temple and spout your hate, we would show you the error of your ways.

Gregg,

Newsflash... I don't want to be a priest. It has never crossed my mind. Unlike a lot of raving feminist I do not desire to grow a p***s and be "as good" as a man. Men and women are different in many ways. I don't fight that we are different. Different, not less...

How is the Relief Society different than any other religious based women's group? Or are you showing off that you know "Mormon jargon"?

Obviously you consider the constitution secondary. Here you are in support of a man who harasses Mormons on their way to worship. America was founded so that everyone could worship how they chose and be free from harassment.

Mr. Craft standing outside Mormon gathering places and harassing worshippers is just that... harassment. Do you stand outside voting polls and harass blacks going to vote? Same theory here. We are being harassed while going to worship which is a freedom that everyone is should have. Persecution while doing it, even if you claim it is love does not change what it is to us.

The definition of Stockholm Syndrome you ignorant putz is as follows:

The Stockholm Syndrome comes into play when a captive cannot escape and is isolated and threatened with death, but is shown token acts of kindness by the captor.

I have never been threatened by death by anyone in the church. I have also "escaped"... I left the church for around five years. I just wanted to experience other things. I wasn't missing anything.

I am not ashamed of anything I am. I embrace my relgion and wear it with pride. I am ashamed of "Christians" like you who teach hate and lies about other religions. Who quote the constitution and trample upon it at the same time.

I am not trying to convert anyone to my beliefs. I wouldn't want people like you in my church. People who ridicule other people's beliefs are dogs. People who harass them, like Mr. Craft are worse.

Emily-

You are not a Priest in your religion and never will be.

So you have a choice. Shut up and get back in the relief society room (kitchen). Or, as a woman, keep barking, and hopefully get ex-communicated from your 'church'.

If you are a good mormon you know what I mean. The constitution is secondary. The proper place for a woman is subservient to man, but 'beside' him as an 'equal'. And all the men here agree you are a brain washed twit that sounds like Patty Hearst telling us how maligned the SLA is.

Yea, you have your opinion. And so does Mr. Craft.

Nobody HERE is going to take away your megaphone or your right to speak. But I, for one, hope shame makes you reconsider your putrid Stockholm Syndrome drivel.

Dear Emily:

As always, thank you for your kind words and your well reasoned responses. (Yes, sarcasm, as God to Job.) They make a great testimony, and I trust RipOff Report readers can judge for themselves (without having to pray about it) who is rational and who is not and who speaks the truth and who does not.

[See
http://www.ripoffreport.com/view.asp?id=27006
for another of Emily's responses.]

This isn't the proper forum for religious discussions, and I've pushed the boundary here in the Rip-off Report - so I won't push it further. There's a lot of information on the web about Mormonism for anyone investigating for themselves. My Rip-off report postings are, like everyone else's, about injustice. It simply turns out, living in an area ripe with so called latter-day saints (who think they're going to be gods someday) that these injustices have been done at the hands of your people for your people. (The Higher Law, doncha know.) I want readers to know what non-Mormons in Salt Lake already know. (You did hear about the Olympic Bribery Scandal, didn't you? Two members of the Church? Case brought by Federal Prosecutors, dismissed by Mormon Judge?)

[See
http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/
ripoff50954.htm
for more Utah Justice.]

I simply want Justice for All and if I have to shame Mormons into Choosing The Right to get it, then I'll do it. (The EDitor and I are like minded in this, both seeking Justice, and rarely finding it in Mesa, AZ.) But you don't seem too ashamed.

For the record, despite your paranoia, I am not, nor have I ever been, Mormon. Nor have I ever dated a Mormon girl, been spurned by Mormons, lost a family member to the Church, ad nauseaum. (BTW, these are typical Mormon retorts.) Just impossible for you to accept the fact that I love Mormons. So you lose your bet. But I'm worried about a bigger bet you're losing.

What am I worried about? I've said it before - you're on the wide road that leads to Destruction. I'm worried about that and love you enough to learn about your religion so I can communicate with you on your level. But go your way. We're done. I dust off my feet.

The Saint
Phoenix, AZ

Dear Emily:

As always, thank you for your kind words and your well reasoned responses. (Yes, sarcasm, as God to Job.) They make a great testimony, and I trust RipOff Report readers can judge for themselves (without having to pray about it) who is rational and who is not and who speaks the truth and who does not.

[See
http://www.ripoffreport.com/view.asp?id=27006
for another of Emily's responses.]

This isn't the proper forum for religious discussions, and I've pushed the boundary here in the Rip-off Report - so I won't push it further. There's a lot of information on the web about Mormonism for anyone investigating for themselves. My Rip-off report postings are, like everyone else's, about injustice. It simply turns out, living in an area ripe with so called latter-day saints (who think they're going to be gods someday) that these injustices have been done at the hands of your people for your people. (The Higher Law, doncha know.) I want readers to know what non-Mormons in Salt Lake already know. (You did hear about the Olympic Bribery Scandal, didn't you? Two members of the Church? Case brought by Federal Prosecutors, dismissed by Mormon Judge?)

[See
http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/
ripoff50954.htm
for more Utah Justice.]

I simply want Justice for All and if I have to shame Mormons into Choosing The Right to get it, then I'll do it. (The EDitor and I are like minded in this, both seeking Justice, and rarely finding it in Mesa, AZ.) But you don't seem too ashamed.

For the record, despite your paranoia, I am not, nor have I ever been, Mormon. Nor have I ever dated a Mormon girl, been spurned by Mormons, lost a family member to the Church, ad nauseaum. (BTW, these are typical Mormon retorts.) Just impossible for you to accept the fact that I love Mormons. So you lose your bet. But I'm worried about a bigger bet you're losing.

What am I worried about? I've said it before - you're on the wide road that leads to Destruction. I'm worried about that and love you enough to learn about your religion so I can communicate with you on your level. But go your way. We're done. I dust off my feet.

The Saint
Phoenix, AZ

I just read back over all this garbage that has been posted slamming the Mormon church. Did anyone notice anything. Almost all of it is one man!

One sad, sick, twisted individual who has taken this on as his personal vendetta. To think all this from one person. That is a whole lotta hate!

I bet you are an excommunicated Mormon, or someone who was stung by a Mormon girl who wouldn't marry you because you weren't in our church. Fighting against the Mormons. You are so pathetic, what are you worried about? That we are going to start doing drive by baptisms? LOL

Little man you are a waste of space. Go slam someone else who means you no harm. Maybe the girl scouts are available... with their grand scheme to make America fat with their yummy cookies.LOL You take it from there.

I am full aware that I have every right to stand and ridicule your beliefs in front of your children. The point here is I don't. I allow all men the same priveledge. Let them worship how, where and what they may. Mr. Craft is not worshipping he is harassing, which is abundantly obvious by the response from those he is "loving".

You obviously had a very shallow sad childhood if you consider the myth of Santa Claus to be your parents lying to you. It seems to have made a rather pathetic adult. I was told Santa Claus was real too, as were all my brothers and sisters. We enjoyed the majic of Christmas and perpetuate this harmless fantasy in our children as well. You... you need counseling. Your parents loved you enough to teach you a "lie" that there was a man who loved all children enough to devote his life to them.

I have more non-Mormon friends than not. They belong to several different religions including one friend who is a Wiccan. We have a very clear understanding about our religions. We do not teach each other's children our own beliefs. We answer questions if they have them, BUT WE DO NOT PUSH OUR BELIEFS ONTO THE OTHERS CHILDREN!

Do you know how many churches have sprung from the fountain of the Mormon church? No I doubt you do. None of them are considered cults to my knowledge. We are considered a cult because our beliefs have a definable beginning. Also because we carry on sacred rites which we do not discuss with non-Members. I also don't discuss my sexual experiences with my husband outside of our relationship. Does that make my marriage a cult? Somethings are sacred, or for your little pea brain to understand... special. You not not of what you speak. You speak from bitterness and hate. You can not even comprehend the things you speak of.

I wasn't speaking of the Mormon church's history with plural marriage. I was speaking about other countries. Sorry I guess you bitter little brain didn't grasp that. Other countries still practice plural marriage to this day. Should we persecute their descendents who live here in America? Because that is exactly what you are doing to us. No one, let me repeat here, no one I know in the church has multiple wives. I have been inside the temple and know everything that happens there. That practice is dead. I don't know or care if it re-emerges "someday". Several of the prophets in the Bible had more than one wife. What matters to me is that I don't practice it, my family, of which I am the oldest of six... does not practice it. No member of my church I have ever met practices it.

I know that people see something in the cross that I don't. That is why I don't go around "educating them in love" on how sadistic I see worshipping the cross to be.

What I do in the temple is between God and myself, and should concern no one else. If you think flaunting that you believe you know what happens there makes you significant... think again. What I do in the temple is find a peace that eludes me in most of the rest of the world. It is an eye in the storm. It hurts no one and is my form of worship. Your own words work against you... leave us to worship as we may, as we leave you to the same. What I do in my community and with those I interact with is for everyone else. I love my neighbor as myself. I have fed the hungry and clothed the naked... so to speak. I find fulfillment in serving my fellow brothers and sisters. Both in and outside of my church.

My imagined situation has never happened. It was a facisile for people to understand what Mr. Craft is doing to us. I could never tell your children their beliefs are wrong or twisted. I could never hurt a child like that.

This country is based on the goal of allowing everyone to worship in their own beliefs freely. This means without harrassment and persecution by other religions. What Mr. Craft is doing is harassment. If I decide you need to die so you don't go to hell can I kill you "in love".

My brother who attacked Mr. Craft should not have done what he did to him. Why would I sound repentant? I didn't attack him. Should I repent for him? Is that what you are saying? Yeah, okay... and I am the extremist, whatever.

The Saint, please... the saint of those overlooked by psychologist.

First, this is Part 4 of a 4 part series.

Part 1 is here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/view.asp?id=26988
Part 2 is here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/view.asp?id=26994
Part 3 is here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/view.asp?id=27006
---------------

Now, the end of this story.

First, I have to correct something I wrote before. I'm now told that Judge Maughan, while Mormon, is not currently a Mormon Bishop. Still, being a Mormon on a case involving a so-called Anti-Mormon is grounds for recusal. For example, The Church of Scientology is famous for suing its opponents. Would you be happy if a Judge, who was a Scientologist, sat on a lawsuit against a former member of the Church of Scientology?

One of Mr. Craft's friends wrote a Friend of the Court brief to Judge Maughan, pointing out this obvious fact. He also pointed out the obvious conflict of interest because of the Judge's secret Mormon temple oath. [You do know that Mormons swear an oath in their temples to dedicate EVERYTHING with which they've been blessed (like a judgeship) to the Mormon Church, to build up the Church on the earth and to usher in a Mormon theocracy? It's called the Law of Consecration. I can provide several Affidavits from former Mormons around the country if you require legal proof.] This secret Mormon oath often puts Mormon judges (and police officers) in conflict with the oath of office they also swore (to uphold and defend the Constitution). A man cannot serve two masters. Guess what the Judge did. He did NOT remove himself from the case.

Also, sadly for Mr. Craft, his high priced, somewhat famous attorney, even though competent, was delinquent. (Just too busy.) When, after many delays, the case was finally going to trial, I found out a month ahead of time that the star witness for Mr. Craft - who saw the whole incident of the plain clothes cop, with no badge or id, assault Mr. Craft - would be out of the country for a month! However, Mr. Craft's attorney didn't start making calls until a few days before the trial. Oops. He tried to get another continuance, but too late.

Probably Mr. Craft should have fired his attorney for lack of zealous defense, but you know, our legal system is so confusing and intimidating. Mr. Craft is a simple man, and when you're it, it's hard to think straight. (Not to mention throwing $2500 away and having to pay another $2500 for a new lawyer - especially when you're just a missionary with ten kids.) So to trial he went.

I was there in the courtroom and heard the other side making their plans. For them, this was clearly a religious issue instead of a patriotic Constitutional one. (1st Amendment free speech, 4th Amendment unreasonable seizure, and simply obeying the Law of the Land.) When it comes to their Church or our Country, Mormons favor the Church. (See comment above about the Judge.) The Mormons were upset that this protester should be allowed to protest. Welcome to the Islamic state of Utah, where they kill the infidels. [Do a GOOGLE search about the "Main Street Plaza" at the temple in Salt Lake.]

One thing to the credit of Mr. Craft's attorney is that he tried to get questions about secret Mormon temple oaths to the jury, to discover whether any of the jurors would be biased against Mr. Craft. [This is a legal procedure called voir dire. For example, an attorney is allowed to ask if you belong to the Klu Klux Klan if you are white and are a potential juror on a trail involving a black man.] This sounds reasonable, considering the trial is about a non-Mormon (what Mormons label an Anti) preaching against the Mormon Church, doesn't it? Not if you're a Mormon Judge it doesn't! (There's that conflict of interest again.) Judge Maughan wouldn't allow Mr. Craft's attorney to ask the questions of the jurors.

Well, maybe the Judge felt a little guilty after that, being an obvious shill in this game. I was told that he kind of forced the Salt Lake Prosecutor into a deal. The deal was this: There were two charges against Mr. Craft. One, a misdemeanor (if not infraction) was disturbing the peace. The second, much more serious, was interfering with a police officer. (The Supreme Court of Utah has gutted the U.S. Constitution, and in Utah, they say that if you interfere with a cop, even if he's breaking the law, you're still the bad guy. Don't get me started on this one.)

The serious charge was dismissed. Mr. Craft pleaded pseudo guilty to the first charge. He stated in court that he was innocent, but acknowledged that a jury (of Mormon peers - not HIS peers) would, nonetheless, find him guilty. But, if he keeps his nose clean and didn't have any further arrests in Utah for the next year, this charge too will be dismissed. Kinda like probation in reverse. Part of the plea was that he can still preach in Utah.

And preach he will do. He plans to be there in Salt Lake for this April's (2003) General Conference, which is where this all started last year. I'm guessing they'll be gunning for him, since no one learned their lesson this round.

Is this Justice? None of this should ever have happened, and the cop who started it all should be punished. And the Judge should be punished for not recusing himself. And they think they're going to be gods someday?

May they be rewarded according to their deeds.

The Saint
Phoenix, AZ

Hello Emily:

Thank you for your contentious and emotional response. Great Testimony. [By the way, his name is Mr. Craft, not Croft.]

You have every right in our country to stand in front of my local church (on a public sidewalk) and tell my children their beliefs are garbage and that I lie to them. Fortunately, we do not live in an Islamic country, where the prevailing religion wins and kills those who dissent. Or is this what you want, except instead of Islam, you want Mormonism?

If you loved my children enough and thought they were on the road to hell, I hope you would share the truth with them. For a long time, when I was a kid, I believed in Santa Claus. My parents lied to me. How I wish someone loved me enough to tell me the truth - for my parents apparently didn't.

With respect to polygamy, it's still in the D&C, still a requirement to become a god, and in fact, there are still a lot of Mormons who are more faithful than you and have multiple wives. Your Church taught it and practiced it, and hopes to practice it again someday. Have the courage of your convictions do what your scriptures teach, and let your husband take other wives so he can achieve a better exaltation. It is better to obey god than man.

Mormonism is considered by many to be a cult. Do a GOOGLE search for the two words: Mormonism Cult. Emily - think about this - does anyone who is in a cult KNOW they're in a cult? (The answer is no.) So claiming you're not in a cult carries no weight.


I don't know who is saying Mormons cook and eat babies of minorities. It is true that your Church leaders said that blacks would NEVER inherit the priesthood, and said blacks were cursed from antiquity for their reason. As for the cross - Emily, have you noticed how often the cross is mentioned in the Bible? Is it possible - just possible, that all those other people who talk about the cross, and even sing songs about it (The Old Rugged Cross) see something in the cross that you don't? 1 Cor 1:18

While I dispute that you go to the temple to worship - (In fact, you learn secret passwords and secret handshakes so god will let you into the celestial kingdom. In fact, everything you do in the temple is so that you can earn a better exaltation. You don't do anything for god. Rather, you're doing it all for yourself.) - I don't like it either when people shout at me, even if it's for my own good. But Emily, I made the mistake one night of turning the wrong way onto a one way street in a strange town. Two teenage boys started shouting something at me, and in this day and age, I thought they were up to no good. It's rude to shout. But my friend heard what they where shouting, and they were shouting ONE WAY STREET! I was thankful they shouted at me, and I turned around. They saved my life! Not that everyone who is shouting at you has a good message, but just so you realize not everyone who shouts at you has a bad one.

You have every right to raise your children in your beliefs. No one is stopping you. But as I said before, so far, we live in a free country where others have equal freedom to tell you what they think. You said you were sorry that your brother attacked Mr. Craft, but you don't really sound repentant since you don't blame him. So - if he had murdered Mr. Craft (in his heart, he did) would you still not blame him? Emily, you sound like one of those Muslim Extremists to me. They think they're justified murdering infidels and those who "harass" families.

You cite Jesus making a whip and kicking out the moneychangers. But Jesus was God, and your brother is not. (Nor will he ever be.) And the moneychangers were in God's House. Mr. Craft was on a public sidewalk. Some big differences. You seem confused to me.

The Saint

This Sunday I am going to stand in front of your church and tell your children that your beliefs are garbage and that you lie to them.

I am going to tell them all sorts of sick things like that you have multiple wives, entire other families, because maybe your ancestors come from a country that practices that, even though you don't.

I am going to tell them that your religion is a cult. I am going to tell them lots of fun rumors, like that you hate minorities and cook and eat their babies. I am going to tell them that you worship a graven image, how about the cross, the instrument of Christ's death because you hate Jesus. Then I will tell them that you don't even believe in Jesus, you just say you do. Them I am going to tell them that they are going to burn forever in hell. Because they don't belong to the church I think they should.

Do you like that? Neither do we. We go to the temple to worship. We don't like hate mongers screaming these things at our children.

Where does your right to bad mouth us to anyone, and our right to raise our children by our faith begin?

We don't go to your churchs and worship places and do these things? Why do you do them to us?

I wanted to punch out protesters at a circus I took my children to because they were following me down the sidewalk telling my young children that I hate the earth and animals because I was taking them to a circus... for the first time in their young lives. I was mad enough to do it too.

They are my children... I will raise them in my beliefs... as you raise your children in yours. I fully believe you can defend your family in whatever means you deem necessary. I am sorry my Brother in the church attacked the man protesting. But I do not blame him... did not Christ himself turn the moneychangers out of his temple?