NATIONAL CITY BANK Copious amounts of overdraft fees...Thousands of dollars! Internet

The thing is..the issue is not between you and I..or myself and anyone defending the banks actions and motives...it is between MILLIONS of customers who feel they were ripped off and/or mislead by the banks tactics, and the banks. Lawsuits are still pending and legislation changes will be taking place in the future.

To wit..many banks have already decided to change some of these policies on thier own...now why do you think that is?

Here is my hypothesis...

1) too many complaints (statistics show 1 in 4 banking customers have been negatively effected by the current policies)...

2) the media attention

3) the pending lawsuits

4) the pending legislative changes


While I agree wholeheartedly that keeping an accurate register is a good way to prevent overdrafting and everyone should use one..and while I agree as well if a customer never overdrafts, they will not incur an overdraft fee...this does not excuse or forgive the banks for forcing any customer into overdraft protection..or to re-sequence the times and order of their transactions. If you didn't notice..it is THE BANKS that are manipulating the times of our transactions..NOT the merchant.

The banks polices of overdraft protection and re-sequencing were put in place to protect large checks..such as a mortgage. But for the customers that have been using the debit card and online banking for everything...which the banks HIGHLY encourage us to do (wonder why?)..there is absolutely no need for overdraft protection or transaction manipulations..other then for the bank to maximize fees. And this is what the lawsuits are going to focus on.

So anyone can continue to debate or rebut me personally..but it makes no difference..I have stated fact. To those who never had an overdraft..my congratulations..good for you..however the policy changes can potentially help any customer at all..including the ones who never overdrafted before..because there is always a first time for everything..and with banks..the first time is too late..you are financially wiped out.

Ronny,

I personally have National City Bank and I have never had a problem with over draft fees because I keep a thorough register of all transactions and check them off as they post to my account. You ask how can the "$50" not show up on your online banking and the answer is very simple. Merchants put through transactions on different cycles and not all of them put them through immediately. I have had many transaction not go through, even on pending transactions, for 3 or 4 days and if I didn't keep a register and just went by what the bank said I had I would have overdrafted numerous times. The money is not hiding in some mysterious place, it just comes down to record keeping because you cannot count on the merchants to put it through in a timely manner. I once had a bank tell me that merchants have 365 days from the day of the tranaction to take their money, so if you do not keep good records, you will over draft.

And knowing is half the battle.


1) Re-sequencing transactions to maximize fees

2) Excessive check hold times. As far as making ANY deposit at an ATM...bad move. We read once or twice a month here about deposits that were stolen or "lost"..the bank denies everything and offers little to no recourse. ALWAYS hand your deposits to a HUMAN and get a receipt.

3) Of course we need to keep track of anything we use the debit card for. But there is still something I am curious about...

You see..I am opted out of overdraft protection since I made that choice. I felt it was a better way to protect my money from fraud, unauthorized transactions..error..and the BANK itself.

My bank reluctantly allowed it. Now...if I do not have the funds available to cover any transaction at a point of sale..or at an ATM..the transaction will be declined. Same as if you try to use a bad check these days at the grocery store, or buying shoes...or a new TV...if the check is NSF..the merchant will tell you it was declined. So...this would lead me to assume with a reasonable degree of certainty..that the bank is aware of a debit card swipe virtually seconds after it occurs.... regardless of when the merchant chooses to post it.

Now..would it not be reasonable and decent of the bank for the sake of helping prevent overdrafts..or to make it easy for us to detect fraudulent activity..or error..if  transactions/card swipes were to be noted on our statement as SOON as the bank knows about it...just as a "courtesy"..so the customer can better keep track of account activity? Would it be such a horrible thing for the banks to do?

I mean I can understand why they do not...they enjoy all the fees. I can't think of any other logical reason..since it is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the bank HAS to know about a card swipe as soon as it occurs in order to be able to accept, or decline it..what other reason could there be for them not to notify us on our statement as soon as they are aware of a swipe?

And better yet..notify or attempt to notify us when overdrafts are occurring in case it is due to error or fraud/theft/unauthorized use...As a matter of fact...ALL of my other cards will notify me by a phone call if any excessive or suspicious activity is going on, before it goes over limit..so I can at least have a chance to cancel the card if it is fraud/theft..or to be aware the account is in danger or close to overdrawing.

While it's true that National City has every right to charge money for an overdrawn account, their practices are suspect as to HOW, WHEN and WHY the account is overdrawn. I've had two instances where one item should have bounced (I take FULL responsibility for the items, before anyone jumps my a** about it!). So if I had $100 in the account and $99 of that should have cleared fine, they will charge the overdraft on the bounced item first, then put that item through, and kind of like a domino effect, the rest then bounce because they charge the overdrafts FIRST TO MAKE THINGS BOUNCE. I called the one time and was like so you guys are basically charging me overdrafts on things that never should have bounced because of the order they put things through and she said yes. So I should have been $-1 in this case, not $-200 like I was in this case.

Second, if you want them to credit your account in a timely manner, do NOT make deposits through the ATM. I once had a check not credited to my account for 5 days when I went through the ATM.

Third, merchants with Visa, Mastercard capabilities do not always automatically post the debit from you card to your account. They can choose to send the batch whenever they want. Some do it immediately, some the next day, some once a week. So the system does not necessarily check your account to see if you have money, or it just sees a positive balance and it goes through. Bottom line is if you use your debit card, always minus off the amount whether it clears immediately or not. It's money spent no matter how you track it or when the merchant decides to put the debit through on their end.

I'm a US Bank customer. I just happened to stumble on this report.

I see that some people that bank at National City also don't pay attention to their available balance and don't pay attention to the terms and agreement document that they signed for when they opened the account. Heaven help these people if they ever sign a mortgage.

Sad... so sad. This is why so many families are in debt. Take responsibilty people, it's third grade math we're talking about here.

I feel obligated to reply to this part of your last post..I am becoming a debate addict like the rest of you..jeez...

"I will continue to reinterate the need for free classes held on a Saturday at a bank (taught by a money manager) that will stress check register usage, limitations on using debit cards, etc... and yes, I choose the people who overdraft before anyone else for very obvious reasons.  First, they've essentially paid for the class by overdrafting; their fees underwrite the class offered.  Second, because people who don't overdraft don't need a class.  You don't send someone who doesn't receive a moving violation ticket to traffic school - you send the person who did get one.  Same concept."

I will start at the end of this comment when you state a moving violation conviction can sentence you to traffic school is the same concept as someone who overdrafts being "sentenced" to some kind of imaginary bank school...

First off..and I don't know why you keep doing this..which is a feeble attempt to imply that an overdraft is somehow a crime and breaking some kind of law. It is not...As a matter of fact..it is not even breaking a rule..unless you can show me ANY evidence in any case..or any documentation from a bank..or a law book..or a statute...ANYTHING, that states an overdraft is a crime. Or show me anywhere in the banks T&C that states an overdraft is against the "rules" or violates ANY of the banks policies. As a matter of fact..Since the customers had overdraft protection...any overdraft is considered "pre-authorized" by the bank. Notice..."PRE AUTHORIZED"..not "UN AUTHORIZED". And you know you can't prove me wrong on this Jim..you and others have tried and FAILED before.

To wit..and you would have to be living with blinders on not to have noticed..but it is quite apparent that the bank not only allows overdrafting..but encourages it and even uses misleading tactics such as with the way their statements hide and manipulate. And NOTHING you say..will convince us..or the courts that this is NOT done for ANY reason other then to make it easier to overdraft...of course the banks know this..because if they didn't..that would mean they are stupid..and Jim..do you think the banks are stupid???

And as far as your brilliant idea for the classes...they would not be needed if the bank just used common ethical practices..and explained the consequences of their polices and services..and explained that terms they use such as "protection" and "available" and "courtesy" are fraudulent and misleading..well to anyone who can understand the definition of those terms.

I will say this again..the only classes that need to be conducted to really help many customers...is a class on ethics for the bank employees and officers. Because in the real world..which you seem somewhat unfamiliar with..the type of people that habitually and consistently overdraft..are not learning their lesson from the fees..so how will your "free" class help? We want reasonable changes...and reasonable protection of our money..which is what the banks are supposed to do in the first place. Like in the good old days. And one day if in fantasy land you can get your bank school...and everyone in America who ever overdrafted attended..and no one ever overdrafted again..the banks will be forced to go back to the ways they are intended to make thier money....by fair lending. Jim..am I wrong?

I will note to copy this reply and save it in my word documents so I can paste it in every report you mention the school..and imply that overdrafting is some kind of crime...so I can save the typing

Ya got no answers..sorry buddy. Your BS will make no difference. You are clutching at straws..and the straws are getting shorter. Read the friggen papers and do a little research..this going back and forth is getting old..everything that needed to be said on this has been said..and the results are self evidence..denial won't change a thing.

Case: Gutierrez vs. Wells Fargo.  In this class-action lawsuit there are two separate class group. The Including-And-Deleting Class represents deceptive online balance and pending transaction information. The Re-Sequencing Class represents largest first posting order. Here are quotes of what the Judge really said when he decertified only the first class group:

''...plaintiffs expert assumed that every time any customer accessed his or her account online, or via an ATM, or in person (by visiting a teller window), he or she would have then learned and relied on the then available balance....It is easy to use an ATM without obtaining ones balance. It is easy to make a teller transaction without obtaining the balance. It is possible to consult an account online for reasons other than obtaining ones balance''

''This claim was originally sold to the Court as one in which the bank customer consulted the available balance between steps 1 and 2, noticed that a specific item had been subtracted, and then later consulted the available balance between steps 2 and 3 and relied on it without realizing that it looked larger than it really was due to the backed-out items. Now, however, plaintiffs seek to skip the first part and to broaden the claim to depositors who merely consulted the online balance between steps 2 and 3, whether or not they consulted it between steps 1 and 2. The damage study thus wholly ignores the very scenario that formed the basis for class certification.''

''For all of the foregoing reasons, the including-and-deleting class is hereby DECERTIFIED and shall not proceed as a class claim.''

The only reason the Including-And-Deleting Class was dercertified is because the Judge was legally obligated to do so. The plaintiff lawyers over reached by trying to broaden the scope of who might be affected from their original claim. The ruling had nothing to do with a check register and lack of customer responsibility. It was the fault of the lawyers, not the customers. Then the Judge ruled against the bank by upholding the certification of the second class group and that class-action suit is still moving forward. For the first class group's case, had the lawyers stuck with their original claim and not over reached in the middle of the game, it's likely that BOTH class-action suits would still be in progress.

and none of the answers to your questions involve the bank doing anything wrong; in fact, the latter scenario is exactly what happened in the Gutierrez vs. Wells Fargo case that was decided in favor of the bank.  In that scenario, the court determined that since the account holder (class member) did not have a register (in your scenario even losing a register is the same as not having one from the court's perspective), the class could not go after the bank since the register is the account holder's balance in the account.  The bank could even mispost a transaction, remove it, and repost it on various days - the court said it didn't matter.

The bank is only administering the monetary transaction between account holder and merchant.  Any dispute arising between merchant and account holder doesn't involve the bank.  You want to assign all fault to a bank - the more likely assessment is that the bank is hardly at fault in situations like these.

Moreover, I was reading the changes proposed by the banks and it really won't change most of the postings here.  The only people who will be affected will be those people who complained either because they overdrafted by less than $10 and think an OD fee is interest on a loan of $10 (it isn't a loan and therefore isn't interest).  Those who incurred fees of $100 or more, or the lady who incurred 23 overdraft charges in a one week period would not be affected because they will have overdrafted their accounts by far more than $20.  I will continue to reinterate the need for free classes held on a Saturday at a bank (taught by a money manager) that will stress check register usage, limitations on using debit cards, etc... and yes, I choose the people who overdraft before anyone else for very obvious reasons.  First, they've essentially paid for the class by overdrafting; their fees underwrite the class offered.  Second, because people who don't overdraft don't need a class.  You don't send someone who doesn't receive a moving violation ticket to traffic school - you send the person who did get one.  Same concept.

Yes most of us are aware the banks practices are in the T&C..unless there were future addendums the customer did not receive. The issue has far as the OD protection was several fold.

1) Some banks did not allow opt out

2) Many customers (to wit all of the reports here) did not understand what OD protection implies..as many of us feel it not only didn't protect anything..but caused many additional fees. (OD protection in tandom with re-sequencing, trusting online statements, etc.)

3) Probably all customers were not given the opportunity to opt out if the bank allowed, and the banks did not request if we wanted it..or have us sign specifically for this type of "service" when we joined up.

I work in retail also..have for years and owned my own retail business. I understand customers frustrations when a card or check is declined..but I imagine their frustration is way greater if they get home and find for a $30.00 purchase..they owe the bank $345.00 in fees..and as we read here often..this certainly does happen,,this is not hypothetical or imaginary.

Now if the customer WILLINGLY opted out of OD protection..surely they can't blame the retailer if the check or card is declined due to lack of funds...it's about choices and decision making...how they handle their finances (some are sharp..some are scatterbrains..some did not realize fees are coming in)...but regardless of the reason for the overdraft..all the customer has to do is call the bank to check their balance..this is how it's done today..and this is how it's done when the changes are put into effect..the merchants are going to deal with nightmares regardless..people are just nightmares and many will never be satisfied..and that is part of retail and why many get out of it eventually.

The proposed changes are being put into effect to give the customers a choice on the best way to save them from all the fees...I opted out to protect myself from fraud and mistakes as I have been through that enough. If a transaction was ever declined due to NSF....I would thank the bank..not get angry at the merchant..I made the choice to opt out..and was fortunate my bank allowed it..and that I understand how it worked after a couple of bad experiences..never again..ever..


People still need some education or they will pay the price. I have also learned the hard way certain places never to use the card..get cash first..bars, restaurant..hotels etc..any place that can enter charges without asking you..that is your risk...but still NOT having OD protection in any of those cases..can save the customer a bundle in potential fees.

As far as the statement "the banks will make it up somewhere else"..fine...let them. As long as the customer is protected from the current scams..and as long as the bank is not doing anything deceptive or manipulative..they have a right to make money..and charge fees for legitimate overdrafts..bounced checks..etc. I always thought the banks made all their money by fair lending?..what ever happened to that??? Perhaps we should look into it?

Of course they are doing it to avoid a court ordered or legislative change down the road..they are not idiots..they know we caught on. But if they are making changes we feel are reasonable and fair to us..as well as them...fine. If they pull some other shady tactics down the road..then we fight it again.I see no reason to let them get away with ANYTHING for any reason if it is deceptive, unfair..and NOT actually doing what it implies....ie: "protecting" the customer money.

Flynrider...Yes we will continue to see bank ROR complaints..but it will decease many that have to do with overdrafts by debit card..at least those that choose to opt out because they continue to fall sucker to the current policies.

The problems with the online statements will be addressed...but bottom line is..whether due to using the online statement..calling the bank..keeping a register..writing it on a napkin..if funds are unavailable..and following transactions are declined..that will prevent the excessive fees and hence nothing to report about regarding being charged excessive fees..I can't see it any other way..unless the banks find another way to rip off their customers...which will then be exposed here.

   BofA, Chase and Wells Fargo announced this week that they are going to change their policies to allow customers to opt out of automatic OD protection. 

   While I feel that this is an improvement, I also feel that we will continue to see the usual overdraft complaints here on ROR.    Almost everyone that posts about these fees is also attempting to use online banking to keep track of their balance, instead of using a register.

   I really hope I'm wrong.   I guess we'll see soon enough.

While I admit that the bank's practices are questionable, they are in the T&C.  Here's my problem with being able to opt out of overdraft protection.  That means that your card will be declined.  Having worked in retail, let me point out the down side of that.

Have you ever checked someone out who had their card/check declined (reasons possibly no OD protection, fraud,whatever)?  It's an absolute nightmare.  They often go into apoplectic fits of rage, demanding the retailer "fix it."  We don't know why it was declined, we just tell you.  Then the customer calls their bank who verifies if funds are available.  If they are, the customer demands you make the transaction go through.  Don't work that way folks.  Then if there aren't funds comes the can you hold it for me, can we work something out(i.e. I take it know and pay you later).  They threaten to, and sometime do, sue because the retailer somehow caused them embarrassment.  It's even sadder, and often uglier, around the holidays.

Just some food for thought for the no OD protection, I don't wanna pay fees, I can't keep a register crowd.  Same will apply in restaurants, etc...

Also, as someone pointed out.  If the banks stop charging all these OD fees, they will make it up somewhere else.  I personally think the banks that are adjusting their OD fee policy are doing it voluntarily for 2 reasons.
  -  If its voluntary, they reserve the right to change it down the road.
  -  To avoid a court ordered or legislated change that they can't change whenever they want.

Julie, this one is on you.  To begin with, all banks and credit unions do not use your account balance as the basis for determining overdrafts.  The basis is your available balance (account balance less pending transactions).  In other words, your account can be in the positive and you will still incur an overdraft.  I even gave you an illustration of how this happens in my response (it even posted twice and you still didn't get it).

If you go to a credit union, you will be able to overdraft your account with the account being positive, just as you did with a bank.  It has nothing to do with the bank or credit union.  It has to do with you not understanding what the available balance is and the ramifications of what it really means for you.

But there is a solution:

1.  Keep a check register.  Never depend on the online balance to tell you anything of value except what has cleared your account.  The only balance you should rely on is the balance in your check register.  If you don't keep a register, then you don't know what your balance is - now or when you switch to a credit union.

2.  Stop using a debit card for purchases:  Never use a debit card for anything except withdrawing money from an ATM.  The bank and credit union will claim the debit card is for your convenience, right?  Whose convenience do you suspect it's for?  Not yours, that's for certain.

I stand by my post(s) because they aren't wrong.  They are universally correct for the entire banking industry, wherever you happen to bank, because all banks are the same and credit unions (I'm realizing) are as well.

I had the exact same experience and although Jim thinks he has a point in support of National City he is wrong (in my humble opinion).  It is theft.  It should be illegal for a bank to charge you an overdraft fee WHEN THERE IS NO OVERDAFT.  When a purchase is submitted to the bank for payment, then the bank then has a right to determine if you do or do not have the funds to cover the transaction (of course, after taking into account your deposits - which I have actually experienced National City Bank NOT do so that they could charge an overdraft and then add my deposit from the same day's transactions).  If it causes an overdraft, then the bank has the right to charge you an overdraft fee.  Not only that ... the most irrating part is that National City Bank does not warn you of its practices.  I had to BEG (via many e-mails back and forth with its online "Customer Service" Department - yeah; that's what they call themselves) National City to share its Terms & Conditions with me evidencing its right to steal money from my account when there is no overdraft.  The bank failed or refused to do so for many weeks but I was persistent.  National City Bank finally agreed to mail me the Master Agreement (I have yet to receive it) but warned me that, "You will not find anywhere, a statement acknowledging that we can assess fees to your account when the balance is positive, because we do not."  Bull-oney! 

Additionally, I'm not sure if you are aware of another scam National City Bank uses to steal frunds from its customers.  That is with the "Online Bill Payment" and the "Bill Payment Guarantee."  National City Bank caused one of my revolving payments to be paid late twice (that I actually caught) and refuses to reimburse the late fee my vendor charged me, despite the fact that National City Bank has a "guarantee" that they will do so.  National City Bank has also caused my automatic bill pays to be paid days early, causing my funds to be withdrawn before expected and, hence, lining their pockets with ungodly overdraft fees. 

They are supposed to be the "professionals."  A consumer should be able to reasonably rely upon a multi-billion dollar corporation who pays its executives billions of dollars in sum to have the ability to make a payment on the date it is due.  It should not be that difficult.  If it is that difficult, it should be clearly stated so that the consumer can make an educated decision on whether or not to risk using National City's online bill payment and making the informed decision if it is actually worth it; because it is not!  

National City Bank has found ways to rip-off their customers surreptitiously and it is the most dishonest, disingenuous, thiveing banking institution I have ever come across.  After my experiences and disappointments with National City, I am moving my account to a Federal Credit Union where I hope that the executives have consciences and clear business practices.  It would be a beautiful day if all of National City's customers decided that they have had enough and moved their accounts to another banking institution.  Maybe, at that point, National City Bank would give an iota about their customers, and clearly and concisely share their business practices.  I suspect if National City Bank honestly advised their customers of their business practices when innocent consumers un-warily open an account, that those customers would not do so.

Signed,

A Very Dissatisfied, Disappointed (and Angry) National City Bank former customer

you know...the part about doubting yourself.  Unless you keep a check register, you don't have any idea what the balance in your account is.  The problem that seems to be baffling you is the use of a debit card.  So let me give you an example of how you incur an overdraft with a positive balance.

Let's say you have $100.00 available and is your account balance.  You go shopping and pay $50 with your debit card.  Now, the next day you check online and your balance is still $100.00.  Why?  Because the merchant hasn't put your debit through.  The available balance in your account is only $50, but you don't understand that; you'll only know that if you kept an accurate check register.  So seeing you have $100 in your account, you decide to withdraw $60 from the ATM.  You think you have $40.00 in your account.  In reality, you just incurred an overdraft because your available balance just went into the negative.  By the end of the day, your balance in the account will be $4.00.  By tomorrow, the balance may be -$46.00 when the merchant finally puts through your debit.  That's how it can happen.

All banks work this way because all debit cards work the same way.  As I said, you were right to doubt yourself.  There is a learning experience here - take advantage of it today.

you know...the part about doubting yourself.  Unless you keep a check register, you don't have any idea what the balance in your account is.  The problem that seems to be baffling you is th euse of a debit card.  So let me give you an example of how you incur an overdraft with a positive balance.

Let's say you have $100.00 available and is your account balance.  You go shopping and pay $50 with your debit card.  Now, the next day you check online and your balance is still $100.00.  Why?  Because the merchant hasn't put your debit through.  The available balance in your account is only $50, but you don't understand that; you'll only know that if you kept an accurate check register.  So seeing you have $100 in your account, you decide to withdraw $60 from the ATM.  You think you have $40.00 in your account.  In reality, you just incurred an overdraft because your available balance just went into the negative.  By the end of the day, your balance in the account will be $4.00.  By tomorrow, the balance may be -$46.00 when the merchant finally puts through your debit.

All banks work this way because all debit cards work the same way.  As I said, you were right to doubt yourself.  There is a learning experience here - take advantage of it today.