#1 Update By Author
AUTHOR: Rich - Tempe (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Monday, June 02, 2003
POSTED: Monday, June 02, 2003
Today is 6-2-03 and I just faxed a copy of my report filed against the above company to the dealership addresses to the following 3 people. Bret Irvine, Mark Tkach and William Coulter. I am not sure who will actually get it but I am pretty certain it will make its way to Bret Irvine (Finance manager) at least he was at the time of my purchase.
I think Mark Tkach and William Coulter are the (owners) and are not really at the dealership at least on a daily basis. I believe they also own several other businesses in the valley including other auto dealerships (car and motorcycle) and various other businesses which I will check on and verify. In case I need to contact them directly. Hopefully the fax will work to get the ball rolling.
I have always spoken highly of the Harley store to all whom have been interested since getting my 2000 fatboy and have referred a few folks to the dealership as well. I don't know if others have been ripped off like this (re: the money back guarantee/extended service plan).
Still checking into the company that is supposed to "refund the money" but right now when I call them all they tell me is they are "CNA National" so I will give more updates when I know who they are and how it all works. See I am sure that I was sold the money back guarantee warranty, and I am sure the dealership was paid for it. The other factor is if no claims are used then it is refunded. No claims so far, and I don't plan to have any by 11-17-2003 (when warranty is up).
So where is the problem? A certificate? One that I was never given? I was not given any paperwork to register my extended warranty but some how it got registered with Harley Motor Co. and with the Harley Extended Service Plan (and neither was done by me) which brings me to my point.. Why would they register my bike for everything they told me and sold me except not for the money back guarantee? They keep the $1000.00!! Sure it isn't that much especially over a 4 year term but if it happened to several other people (i don't know yet) it sure is getting up there in the dollars.
Until my next update (keep on riding)!!!
#2 Employee
AUTHOR: Bret Irvine - Peoria (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Wednesday, June 04, 2003
POSTED: Wednesday, June 04, 2003
CNA is the warranty company that administer's the Harley-Davidson factory backed extended warranty program. At the time that Richard Vaughan purchased his motorcycle they were running a program that offered a 100% money back guarantee.
If you were to purchase a 4 year or longer extended warranty and at the end of the contract you did not have any claims then they, CNA , would issue you a refund equal to the contract price of the warranty.
The only qualifier's to the program were that you still had to be the owner of the motorcycle, you could not have any claims against the extended warranty, and you had to register for the program within 30 day's of the date of purchase. To register you simply had to send in a photocopy of your driver's liscense, a photocopy of your extended warranty contract, and the hardcopy of the money back program. The dealership was not allowed to do the registration for the customer's. It was soley their responsibility.
Richard Vaughan also purchased a PCMP maintenance program. That is a program that is offered by our dealership. The program offers 12 service's over a 3 year term. If a customer was to use all of their services they would recognize about a 45% savings on their services.
Arrowhead Harley does not benefit if a customer does not get their money back on the 100% money back program. It was offered by CNA and the dealer does not get a chargeback or receive any additiona monies whether or not a customer received the money back.
I personally contacted CNA as well as my district representative but was told that there is no way around him not sending in his certificate.
When we did sell the program we would go as far as making photocopies of the customer's liscense and their warranty contract and would then highlight in yellow marker that they had 30 day's to register into the program. We never put these copies into the folder that contained all of the bikes documents simply because it would be too easy to forget about mailing in these documents to register into the program. I have no idea as to what Rich may have done with these documents nor do I have the ability to change his status in the program.
Sincerely,
General Manager
Arrowhead Harley-Davidson
#3 Update By Author
AUTHOR: Rich - Tempe (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Thursday, June 05, 2003
POSTED: Thursday, June 05, 2003
I am glad to see mostly everything Bret stated is the same as he told me face to face except, the two most important facts and the first being this: since I didn't have any of the things I should have if I were given the money back warranty packet he said "my money back guarantee packet may have been left on his desk". See, I was not given anything seperate regarding a warranty or anything at all! Not to mail in or even to keep for my own records! No hard copy of the warranty registration, as a matter of fact no warranty registration card at all! No hard copy of a money back guarantee (which would have been mailed in had it been given to me) that was the whole purpose of buying the money back guarantee warranty!!
And certainly no photo of my drivers license was given to me. No extended warranty card (the credit card type you carry in your wallet for proof) nothing except the part one and part two of the extented service plan which Bret folded and put in the document folder with my other important papers. That envelope is all I was given after I signed and left the dealership.
And it went straight into my saddle bag and from their into my Harley file folder in my file cabinet where it has been. The same place every piece of paper regarding this Harley experience, from day one to the thank you, 6-month and 1-yr birthday letters from the dealership and Buck Rogers (my salesman), to all correspondence from Harley on recalls, thank yous, HOG memberships, all purchase recepits. You name it and I have it saved.
Now if I had been given the mail-in information as Bret now states "he doesn't know what I did with it" if I had it and not mailed it in then it would be in this folder with everything else that Bret rummaged through when he tried to show what it was. I have been counting down the days to getting my money back to buy another warranty for another 4 yrs and BAM! I find out I was screwed (6 months before actual time to payout).
I can just picture how many others left after buying the money back deal and went riding on their new bike (with loose papers that had to be mailed in flying all over since not put in an envelope) yeah right.
The second thing that he stated regarding "they do not benefit one way or another if money is given back" doesn't appear to be true. Because the fact is they (the dealership) got the $1000.00 directly for my extended warranty/money back guarantee. Not CNA and I have a printed contract that shows exactly that. So they have already benefited off my $1000.00 since day one being 11-17-1999.
I trusted Bret and the dealership at the time (matter of fact I was pressured at the first dealer I went to which is why I went to Glendale). Maybe that pressure would have saved me from getting ripped off $1000.00 in unhonored money back guarantee promise because they did not offer it. For some reason Bret (maybe he felt since I was a young first time harley buyer I wouldn't care 4 years later or wouldn't even have the bike that long) but this guy has screwed me out of $1000.00. By not giving me any of the paperwork. I don't know if he personally got the $1000.00 or the dealership but someone their did?
It is not hard at all to "simply" mail in the few items Bret claims he told me to mail in, and that he even went as far as making copies for me to mail in? Maybe he did make copies but he surely did not give them to me! Nor did he tell me anything about mailing something in. If he had I would have certainly done it!!
I am still waiting to hear from others this may have happened to, and still filing complaints regarding this. No doubt it will be heard. The dealer does not offer the program anymore (too many payouts) but I would still be very weary of any dealings with them because apparently they have ways of taking peoples money for things and then blaming the customers when they can't get their money back as promised.
#4 Update By Author
AUTHOR: Rich - Tempe (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Sunday, November 30, 2003
POSTED: Sunday, November 30, 2003
I have been laying low on this issue because I got a message from Bret stating he was working on this issue with Harley and that if they don't cover my $1000.00 refund (which is actually going to be used to purchase another warranty for my fatboy) he will take care of me.
He said that he won't cover any other warranty except an official harley warranty. But he would only do this if I stopped my complaint with this website as well as my complaint with the better business bureau here in Az.. I spoke with him and again believed everything he told me, I even went and saw him and he said again that harley was really looking into this problem because I probably won't be the only one in this position.
(I disagree because my whole point is that he sold me the $ back warranty but never gave me anything to send in for it, plus never even gave me the warranty card or anything)!! None the less after I got his reply to the Az. better business bureau he explains the money back program in detail and his theory that I found my certificate and never sent it in as required (placing the blame in my corner) which is totally a lie!!
He told the BBB that he replied to this website and he also told me he did (and his employee was there to verify it) however there has not been another rebuttal from him at all.
I still took his word for it, as the general manager at the dealership and also as a person.
But here is the outcome.... my warranty expired on 11-17-2003, Bret says it expires on 11-19-2003, either way it is expired. I called Bret on 11-17-2003, left a message, I called on 11-18-2003 and left a message. Finally I spoke with him on 11-21-2003 he told me that Harley has taken over the money back warranty program so I need to call them and see what they can do. And let him know (again he will take care of me if they don't). I called them and they checked and said they had no record of a money back warranty guaranty for me or my bike.
I explained the whole situation to them (the woman was very nice and very helpful) she really put a cap on this issue. She said Harley stopped the money back warranty program in September of 1999!!
The dealership should not have sold me one, nor even offered one to anyone after September 1999. Now I know for sure that I was mislead, lied to, ripped off under false pretences, and that person and or dealership did misrepresent that money back warranty guaranty to me on 11-17-1999. The Harley representative told me she wanted to talk to Bret the general manager and gave me her name and extension to give him. I immediately called Bret and left him a detailed message with all above new learned information (and that I was really upset), I left him the reps name and number with extension still on the same day of 11-21-2003.
Today is 11-30-2003 and I have been leaving messages for Bret (almost daily) and he will not call me back!! It is obviously apparent why he is not returning my calls for 10 days now. And I have given him plenty of time since 7-11-2003 when we both agreed to keep this hush hush until after the warranty expired (and then at that time he would help me out on a new warranty, along with having me wait until my warranty expires and then let him take care of the matter) exactly word for word in his answer to the BBB dated July 28, 2003.
I have been left with no alternative in this matter (I tried to honor his request of keeping this under wraps) and kept my end of the deal but it has gone on long enough. Now I want my money as promised from 4 years ago!! I will file my response to the still open complaint with the Az. Better Business Bureau and will go to small claims court or even get an attorney and go that route to get what is due to me and what I am entitled to.
If there are others out there that have fallen prey to this same situation by this same person and or dealership feel free to contact me.
#5 Consumer Suggestion
AUTHOR: Javier Ramirez - Puerto Vallarto, Jalisco (Mexico)
SUBMITTED: Sunday, November 30, 2003
POSTED: Sunday, November 30, 2003
I am the CSM (Customer Service Manager) for Alaska Airlines and I must tell you the FIRST warning flag that was raised to me was during your first hint of a problem with the Warranty Company was the quote from the Sales Manager that he would "Go To Bat For You" and then instructed YOU to call back the warranty company. That isnt going to bat, that's called "stroking you" - If he REALLY was interested in concluding this incident in a satisfactory manner, HE should have made a call, "manager to manager" and found a solution to your problem. The problem is, Harley made their money and they have no incentive to do the right thing, they are only seeing short-term gain, not long term customer service. This is how companies get BAD reputations which are very hard to overcome. They seemed to be really into customer retention (sending you card etc) but when it came right down to protecting their reputation and correcting an OBVIOUS wrong, they dropped the ball. As I say to my Customer Service Agents, "Anyone can give good service when things go right, the TRUE test of good customer service is how we handle the customer when things go wrong.
Best of luck my friend!
#6 Update By Author
AUTHOR: Rich - Tempe (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Monday, December 01, 2003
POSTED: Monday, December 01, 2003
I want to say thanks for the info! I am starting to believe that myself. It is a shame when you put trust in someone a (top position) person within a big named company or dealership and you being one little measily individual so they say whatever and do whatever to get what they want then turn their back when the truth comes out. I sure felt Bret was an honest person up until finding out what I did, now I have no clue. The only thing I can say is this one little measily individual is going to let it be known to as many people, places, businesses and so on. Then we'll see about customer service. I did not deserve to be mislead, ripped off, misinformed, taken advantage of or cheated by Arrowhead Harley fka Glendale Harley to the tune of $1000.00 (which went right into their or somebodys pocket since there was no harley authorized money back guaranty program at the time) what a great way to sell extended warrantys HUH? Well they always say to be a good salesman you need a good sales gimmick!!
Hey CSM, if I ever fly I'll be sure it is with your company (if available)!
Customer service is number one in my book as well.
Thanks again,
#7 Individual Responds
AUTHOR: Charles - Hagerstown (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Thursday, September 16, 2004
POSTED: Thursday, September 16, 2004
I placed an order on 05/9/04 for a red xl 883Custom and was told it would be delivered mid
August.I did a follow up to the Harley Davidson
of Frederick, Maryland and was told that the 883C
would be delivered mid September which was fine.
Then I recieved a phone call on 09/16/04 from the
Sales associate that I had ordered 2 883c, one red and one black. My reciept reflects -ordered a red 883c only.The 883c is what I wanted in red only with the security system and upgraded pipes.
The dealership did not order the addtional options the first time. The dealership states I have to wait another month in order to get the red 883c with the options or take the one in red without the options I wanted. I know that Harley Davidson would want to know and the local prospective buyers.
I feel at this point that the dealership
or Harley Davidson needs to make this right or
I'll take my business elsewhere.
Sincerely
Charles
#8 Consumer Suggestion
AUTHOR: Larry - Tucson (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Thursday, September 16, 2004
POSTED: Thursday, September 16, 2004
You agreed to purchase a money-back warranty and the dealer and the insurance company accepted your money. Now, years later, they claim that you had to submit additional paperwork within the first 30 days to make the sale final. So if the sale was not final until you submitted the paperwork and you did not submit it (regardless of who is at fault), under what theory of law are the other parties entitled to keep your money? They were obligated to return your payment when the 30 day registration period lapsed.
As you have a written contract that is apparently dated 11-17-1999, you have six years under Arizona law to file a civil suit against them. This is your only option if you want to get your money back as the liars and thieves at the dealer and the insurance company are giving you nothing but a run-around. File a suit against both the dealer and the insurance company in the Small Claims Division of the Justice Court. You will need to contact the Justice Court to find out which one has jurisdiction at the dealer's location.
The Justice of the Peace will hear your testimony and theirs, review the documents, and then grab Bret by the balls and squeeze him like an infected pimple until the slimy puss runs out of him. Oh yeah, it will all be public record. You will almost certainly get a judgment against them. If the dealer does not pay, you can have the constable serve a writ on them, which means the constable starts seizing their property to pay the judgment.
Go get 'em, tiger!
#9 Consumer Comment
AUTHOR: John - Phoenix (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Saturday, September 03, 2005
POSTED: Saturday, September 03, 2005
7300 miles in 6 years and your worring about a warranty, man you have to ride it before it will break Thats shameful . I put 10,000 mile on my scooter in 6 months which I might add, I built it myself. Just like any biker would and did. Thats what is wrong here. Its all the RUBs that are screwing up our lifestyle. Its you people that are the reason you pay $18,000 for a bike that isnt worth more than 6 grand. I know what a bike is worth. I have been building them for close to 30 years. You are probably one of those people that pulled up next to me in your cage and told your family, "dont let him see you looking at him". You buy a bike that someone else built and think your a scooter pilot. You want to be part of something you dont even have an inkling of what being a biker is about. When I started to ride brothers stopped when they saw a fellow scooter pilot broke down on the side of the road. It is a rule of the road. Just like letting a brother know that there is a pig up ahead waiting with a radar gun.. There is a way to let a brother know without stopping and telling him. RUBs(rich urban bikers) I like to call them zippers(they never leave their zip code) you are discusting and real scooter people dont want you in our lifestyle. What you are is nothing but a wanna be, a fake. I saw an ad in one of you yuppie magazines, I think it was Ramble or something like that but the ad said be someone else this weekend, go rent a bike. You all , everyone of you yuppies make me sick but being true to the life style, if I see you broke down on the side of the road, I will stop and help you, even though you make me and every other real biker sick to our stomach
Name is Flash
#10 Consumer Comment
AUTHOR: Rich - Tempe (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Wednesday, March 01, 2006
POSTED: Wednesday, March 01, 2006
I am the original filer of this ripoff report and I would like to say hey to John in Phx, Az.
I read your comment and you know what? You might know me, and may have even rode with me on some rides. Especially if you are the same John I know that works for DVUSD. I say that because that John has a nasty attitude like you do and everyone knows it but him. I hope it is not you.
Just because I bought a new bike instead of building one doesn't mean squat. That is the real problem with people today. You think because you can build a bike it makes you a better or a real biker? Well you probably cannot afford to buy a new one! I will admit I cannot build one so that is not important, what is important is I do have one and I got ripped off!!
Now the other on the mileage thing. Maybe if your bike is your only transportation then too bad for you, you have to put major miles on your personally built bike. It lowers the value of course but see I have to share my driving amongst a corvette and a ford pickup all 3 black and beautiful!! And no I didn't build those either, bought them all and all are paid for, even the bike.
If I saw you broke down I would surely stop and help and even load your bike in my truck if needed just because I am too, a fellow biker (apparently not in your eyes) but you know if I knew it was actually you who was in fact the one broke down, I think I would let you sit there only because of your attitude. This website is about getting ripped off not about telling someone they shouldn't have pretended to be something they are not. Get a grip on life John, it is whatever you make of it.
I hope you do not ever get ripped off buying parts or an engine to rebuild your bike, because they may be someone who tells you the same thing. You are not a real biker or you should have bought a new one.
Have a great and a safe ride always!!
PS I sent nice letter to editor of Enthusiast Harley Mag just to let others know. They won't print it but at least they will read it! Oh yes I have since joined new HOG Chapter in Az and still ride the streets of Az.
#11 Consumer Comment
AUTHOR: Bitburg - Gilbert (U.S.A.)
SUBMITTED: Friday, November 21, 2008
POSTED: Friday, November 21, 2008
I bought a '96 Harley bagger a couple of years ago. Having a great time with it riding in Poker runs (Lost Dutman is the best) or rallys, (too Broke For Sturgis was a good time). Am 56 years old. For my birthday and Christmas friends give me Harley stuff to wear which I do on these rides. Don't wear the costume during the week when I'm not participating in any events. Tell me John, are you saying I should get rid of my Harley and stay out of YOUR world?
