Primerica Complaint | Review: Primerica Financial Services: Research of its financial products & Business Opportunity. Primerica shows total commitment to resolve all issues & misunderstandings, committed to serving clients & agents. Rip-off Report investigates, finds most of what is posted is ridiculous like this title: Primerica Financial Services PRIMERICA REPS, HERE IS YOUR CHANCE TO PROVE ALL OF US WRONG! Cleveland Ohio *UPDATE: Rip-off Report Investigation examines the Company and its record of service to consumers and representatives

For the reps that may (mostly all won't) try to complete this test, question one is a little tricky. Here is why:

On www.primericabusinessopportunity.com [TAB: the opportunity], it asks the question, "Is this "Opportunity" for real?" The answer to that (copied straight from the website) is:

Absolutely!
“In 2004 alone, Primerica paid $573 million in commissions to its part-time and full-time sales force."

Let's look at this realistically!

Average Salary:

Primerica paid only $573 million dollars in commissions. If you take the average, not adjusting for differences in salary, Primerica employees make an average $5,730 per year (found by dividing $573M by the number of reps).

Actual Salary*:

Dave Derbin gave me a pamphlet of the break down in commissions for Primerica. This was how it was presented:

Total number of Primerica employees is 100,000.

At least 5,000 employees made over $50-100K in 2004.

4,171 (actual number) of 5,000 made around $50-100K (average it to 75K)

40 of 5,000 made at least $1,000,000

The rest between $150K-1M (we won't even need to use these people in this equation)

The Shocking Computation:

Take 4,171 x $75,000 = $312,825,000 in commissions paid

Take 40 x $1,000,000 = $40,000,000 in commissions paid

Total commissions paid = $352,825,000 in commissions paid to only 4,211 of the representatives currently employed with Primerica.

That leaves $220,175,000 in commissions to be paid out to 95,789 representatives of Primerica.

Divide the $220,175,000 by the number of reps left (95,789) and they made an astonishing $2,298.54 per year.

*Please note: If I account for the number of reps that make between $150K-1M that would lower that number significantly, actually making it a negative number. That means either Primerica is lying about how many people are making this kind of money, or they are lying about how much commissions they paid out. I chose both!

Pseudo Financial Freedom:

Are you sure you're on the road to financial freedom?

Seems more like the highway to financial turmoil! Do you honestly believe in Primerica so much, you are willing to get paid $2,300 per year—which averages to $44.23 per week, then, you come on this website telling us we're “stupid”, “lazy”, and “don't want to make any money”? Do you realize Central-American illegal immigrants make more than that? You're lucky it's under $7,000 per year or you would have to pay taxes on it!

My company currently employs 18,000 individuals and has an average salary of $32,000. That's wages payable, on average, of $576,000,000 per year. That's three million dollars more than Primerica (per year) with 82% less of a workforce. In addition to that, my current company offers group health insurance. Primerica does not offer health insurance, although Dave Derbin tried to coerce me into believing it did.

So, let me get this straight, you want me to leave my ‘ok' paying job to make $2,300 per year (slightly more than what I make bi-weekly) and lose my benefits—all in an effort to praise Primerica Financial for making me “Financially Independent”?

WOW, ARE YOU _____________ SERIOUS!

That's even better than the guys selling that Volcano Insurance called PPL. At least you ran the numbers. This should be real boring waiting for an intelligent response from these hucksters. You gave me a good laugh though Jay.

I'm ready to quit working and go sell high interest rates to anyone who wants a loan. After all, that's much "smart"er than paying a low interest loan.

Your report is very informative. There's a few loose ends that need to be explained further.

Where you're using the term salary, substitute income. Otherwise Crimericans will say you're comparing apples to oranges.

Your report focused on the gross income side of the picture which gets gloomier when you factor in business expenses (which practically speaking must include gas and wear and tear on the car) and your time (which must include meetings - unless your family gets involved, expect to see little of them).

For all of this my number one complaint about Crimerica is all the fraud and deception condoned by the fat cats. Such a company I wouldn't work for even if they guaranteed me a million dollars.

Jay, on behalf of myself and my fellow anti-Primericans: welcome to the club. Your analysis is superb, and I can't wait for the responses. I imagine they'll look something like this:

"Some people will always be negative thinkers, and will do everything they can to put down a good thing."

My response: Some people are incredibly naive, and will let any scoundrel dig his hands in their pockets, if he's nice enough.

"I'm not as impressed with numbers as you appear to be. I would rather do what I know is right than do what you THINK is right."

My response: A fool and his money will soon part ways.

"If you think Primerica is a scam, then you need to pick up Success From Home magazine. In there, you will find that Robert Kiyosaki says we are the best business opportunity out there."

My response: Why should we believe a magazine titled after a spam e-mail subject line? And by the way, Kiyosaki said the same thing about Amway just last week.

Thanks to everybody for the support. We all have written very detailed rebuttals against Primerica and I have yet to read an comment (from Primerica reps) that had any merit.

Stuart, I intended to mention salary, because that's guaranteed income. The income (or commission)they are quoting, even the meager $2,300/year, is not guaranteed. That's the point I am making.

Also, if you add all of the expenses that go along with the job, they (the Crimerica reps) would be operating with negative earnings. For example, gas alone costs around $30.00 per week which is $1,560 yearly. That leaves the 'Primerica Geniuses' $740.00 a year or $14.23 a week. I guess, I didn't add that stuff, because looking at what they make a year, I kind of felt sorry for them (laughing).

Anyway, like you all, I am eager to see what rebuttals they make on behalf of Primerica. I also have CD's of material that was given to me from Primerica, I finally looked at them and WOW, was it cheesy!

im not a former employee of primerica, but my wife is a current employee. she has been with them for about 2 months now and still has yet to se a dime. she had a good job and decided to quit it.she really thinks that this job will bring her to success. i tell her its a bunch of b.s. since she has to recruit a minimal of 4 people i belive, then 2 of the 4 have to recruit another 2 people each. that is just to get her 1st raise. i do not have a problem with primericas products, but the way their employment is run is unbelievable. as the bills keep coming in and my income alone barely covers it, i ask her whats going to happen when i get layed off or hurt on my job, she replies ill have to work harder. i dont know about you but working harder in a job that doesnt pay isnt going to get you any more income than zero. i will show my wife your questions and i will be eager to hear what she has to say. oh yeah and her so called distrrict team leader seems more like a used car saleman than a financial advisor.

6 weeks ago I was hired into the primerica company. Right now I am still in the training process. When I got hired they made it sound like I was going to be successfull in owning my own business and they will help me do that. To me it sound great and I was excited until they asked me for a $200 fee. They told me that the fee was broken down into going into business training school. They had me sign a contract saying that the $200 it will be reinburesed to me even if you decided to not pursuit the job.

A few weeks later I brought a friend and she also got hired into the company. They also asked her for the $200 fee and she asked her mother for the money. Her mother brought to my attention that it was a scam and it is some kind of company pyramid. I took caution of what she said but I wanted to see it for myself so I decided to go into training. I found out that I wasn't getting paid for training that I was getting paid commision for whatever many insurance applications I submitted. I didn't understand, we don't get paid until we sell insurance but we can't sell insurance until licensed. Before licensed you were sent to business training school, a 45 min. drive for me and I had to take a 40 hour class in order to get licensed. They didn't really care that my car was down. The time in between getting licensed and finishing training school I was going to have to take a major test. Only 3 chances to take the test.

After a few days of thought I decided not to go to training school and put primerica to the side for a moment. After primerica found out that I was working 2 jobs they tried to force these meetings and seminars into my schedule.

My thing is, am I going to get my $200 back that I had sacrificed? So I guess I can say that I am still a so-called employee. All I want is my money back. Is that possible?

I can tell you that primerica's recruiting system is kind of fishy. They will hire you and then ask for references. They will then ask your references if they want to consider working for primerica then try to do a Financial Needs Analysis. They primerily focus on younger people between the ages of 18-25 with very little to no knowledge of the business world. The training is very confusing and extremely boring. They will show you a lot of articles saying the primerica is the largest company of God knows what and then you tend to dose off. After a few days of training they will try to pressure you into buying life insurance, $15 a month. I was suckered into that because they said that you will be getting paid in direct deposit and at the same time they will take money out of your account for life insurance. I also must warn you about driving to different cities for meetings, siminars, and training. You don't get paid for it as mentioned or get any gas but they say it is a tax write off. I thought tax write offs had to do with people that had children.

So overall I am telling you is that once you get hired these so-called RVP's and managers are making money off of you. It may sound great to you at first but in the long run you are actually getting screwed over. As they say "Time is money" but you are wasting your TIME while they are making MONEY off of you.

I still see a host of Primerica representatives responding to a multitude of threads on this website. Remember, if you really want to get your point across, go head, give my test a try.

Don't even attempt to write my test off as "opinion", because my analysis is based on the writings and philosophies of a former Nobel Peace Prize (in Finance) candidate. Not only that, the information I have gathered on Primerica comes from information distributed by Primerica and its website!

STOP OVERLOOKING THIS THREAD AND TAKE THE TEST!

The truth is, unless you are one of the 5,000 representatives that DO make a living ($50-100K and above), your comments alone are pointless. You are going to have to substantiate a HONEST, DOCUMENTED claim.

HEY PRIMERICA, FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE, BE HONEST!

The comments to follow are NOT from your typical PFS rep. Nor do they come from a rep in the traditional vein of PFS.

They are however from someone who cares about his job, and does it well. They are from someone who works harder than 99% of those he runs into. They are from someone who's directs are expected to perform, or they are not brought on. They are from someone who has fun, is building a business, and fully expects to be at a Vice President contract level within 6 months.

And, by company guidelines, could have been a VP months ago. However, it is my every intention to set records along the way and make an example of myself for how this is supposed to be done. Without any further delay, here are the answers to your questions Jay:

1) http://pfsproof.50megs.com/

There is my November Income, and my YTD income. I also included 2 of my direct's incomes, to prove a point.

First one, Deb, is my mother. Left a job in September paying her roughly $2000 gross. Second one, Dave, left a job in October paying him $1800 gross. Now since we get paid 1099, these are take home incomes, which you probably already assumed.

These are from our company intranet, as its easier this way than scanning in paper docs that say the same things. Take it or leave it, I'm making plenty of money, my downlines are making plenty of money, and I'm having fun doing it.

2) So list the steps Primerica took to make me successful... Primerica, as a corporation, provided me with training in the way of life and securities pre-licensing, and the resources to run my business. That's where the corporate influence ends, and the personal influence starts.

Coincidentally, it's also the reason for the great split in opinions of PFS. For those in great Offices, people love PFS, and can't understand why people are skeptical. For those in bad offices, people feel PFS is a scam and no one makes any money. Which is true, because, well, no one makes any money in bad offices!

So during my training, I was coached every step of the way. From my first phone call to my first recruit, to my first sale, to my first promotion, to my full time date, to my first downline going full time, everything. I was reimbursed for my training as promised. In fact, I made more money training than I did at my part time job. At my office a new recruit gets $33 per appointment regardless of business being done. Between my appointment compensation, which comes direct from your upline, not Primerica or Citigroup, and compensation from closed loans, I made over $2000 my first month.

Is that average? Hell no! But I wholeheartedly believe that anyone could work as hard as I did, it's his or her prerogative to do otherwise.

As for the future, I now work one on one with my RVP on a daily basis to further develop my skills and move my business. And when I do go out to Vice President, I fully expect to make over a quarter million my first year out. Not because it's a pipe dream, not because I'm hopeful, but because of the way the office is run, and its expected. Don't believe me? That's fine, I'll come back in a few months and show you those pay statements too.

3) I have a sizeable downline, but of them, at any given time, I would say only thirty of them have a chance of winning here. Not because the others are less skilled, but because they don't do the work requested of them. They are the type that would go on the Internet and complain about how PFS doesn't work for them. And notice that these people were not recruited by me, but rather my downlines. I can only be responsible for my own actions, not those of others. All I can do is set the bar high, be a good example and hope others follow.

As far as what I'm doing to ensure their financial independence? Same thing that was done for me. In fact probably more in some cases than I had done for me. Outside of the two reps I had indicated above, there is one other life-licensed rep, and two more who's licenses are being processed by the state. The other currently licensed rep is Dave's son, and just made his first sale not too long ago.

I certainly feel that this time next year they'll be in the position I'm in, if not better. Agree or disagree on the methodology in getting there, they're going to have great lives just as I will.

4) Given the caliber of typical Primerica Rep who posts online, I doubt any of them actually said “Sustained Competitive Advantage”. In any event, I'll play along and illustrate how that plays out.

For this to make sense, you need to keep something in mind. Something that I feel most detractors either fail to realize or forget. And that is our target market. Our target market is someone in the lower to middle class. That person has nothing saved for retirement, or very little in a 401(k). They have a mortgage that they refinance on average every five years. They have a mountain of consumer debt that continues to grow as they spend more than they make. They have either no insurance, or are drastically underinsured because they have been sold an inappropriate and overly expensive whole life product.

So imagine that scenario for a moment. Now I think it would be unreasonable to assume that left to their own devices, they would formulate a strategy to get out of that hole. It's also unreasonable to assume they would seek help they would have to pay to get.

Enter the Primerica Representative. For no monetary fee, we formulate a plan to address all of those areas. Now I will never say we have the 100% best product in any given area. We do however have competitive products that are not far off the market' best offer in any area. When these tools are assembled, free of charge, for a client, that client ends up in a significantly better position that they were in before. So while it is reasonable to assume a client could do better on his own, it is unreasonable to assume that they actually will.

That is why there is a place in the market for our services, and that is why we have a competitive advantage.

5) I feel that anyone, with proper training, can give qualified financial advice. No one enters the financial services industry with experience. And a college degree does not equal experience. Everyone needs to start somewhere, and everyone needs a first client.

By the time a Primerica Rep actually assembles his first FNA, he has seen at least a dozen preceding that one during his training, that his trainer has done for him. He also holds the same license that any other rep in any company would. The difference is the typical Primerica Rep had a successful career in a different vocation prior to coming on board.

In fact, the number of Insurance Producers in the US has been on a steady decline for years. At the current time, the name of the organization escapes me, but upon request I'll acquire it. Anyway, a study done not long ago by that organization came to the conclusion that to reverse the disturbing trend is to begin recruiting “soccer moms and other non traditional producers”. In fact, not to long ago, State Farm began a pilot program out in California very much like the Primerica system. It's multi-level, where anyone can recruit anyone, and the company handles licensing just like we do. It's almost identical to the old A.L. Williams, but it markets whole life, and expensive term. Never heard of it? Take a look into it, it's rather interesting.

Essays:

First off, essays? I fail to see how answering an essay will accomplish anything other than to amuse you, but I shall do so anyway.

For the first essay, you are totally off-base. You cannot apply that principle to the manner in which a Primerica business is run and built. What Eugene was implying certainly was not meant to reflect in any way shape or form to the Primerica Sales Force. To do so is relative to saying that the Keynesian Theory of Economics applies to an individual corporation. Without the government component, Keynes' theory holds no water. Without multiple corporations to consider and collect and aggregate from, Fama's argument holds no weight either.

Seems to me your grasping at straws to sound perhaps more intellectual than you may indeed be. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and call it a mere misunderstanding.

You are correct in the fact however, that in an environment such as Primerica, there will be many people making little money, and few making a lot of money. You are incorrect however, in assuming that is a bad thing. Not everyone has the personality, the skills, or the intelligence to become a Regional Vice President. Thus, everyone will simply not attain that level. But it is my firm belief that everyone can obtain a license and help a family or two a month and make extra money for their family. Should a potential recruit be led to believe otherwise, then shame on the recruiting representative. In my particular office, there is on average on hundred people in attendance per week. Of them, approximately 5 of them are serious about making Primerica their career. Those 5 are making good money, a category of which I'm a part of. Another 35-60 are licensed, and happy making part-time money, and being in a good environment doing so. The rest are either in training, new, or just come for the good feeling.

If the total Office cash flow for a month is $150,000, this is how it would be distributed. Maybe $35,000 would go to the RVP. $25,000 would go to the full-time Reps, an average of $5,000 a rep. The remaining $90,000 would go to the part time reps, on an average of $2,000 a rep.

This is purely hypothetical, but illustrates how a typical Primerica Office is run. If the office is smaller, the numbers go down in proportion, and vice-versa.

In that illustrative office, they would produce a new Vice President every 3-6 months. And the great thing is, the market is expanding faster than Primerica is.

In September for example, the company had its' best recruiting month EVER. They recruited just over 30,000 new people worldwide. But we'll just include the US Population for this illustration. If the entire US Population were frozen in age, assuming a population of 350 million, of which 220 million are over 18, at the current record rates, it would take around 611 years to recruit everyone.

Or from purely a client standpoint, Primerica currently has 6 million clients worldwide. Again, we'll assume we're only using US Population. Of the 350 million citizens, we'll assume 80 million families. To get those 6 million clients, it took 27 years to get those. It would take 360 years at the current rate to service all those people.

Combine the two aspects, with the US Population held at a constant, it would take roughly 180 years to recruit and service the entire US Population.

Now consider that the number of people is expanding faster than the number of PFS reps, the fact the not everyone is right to be a PFS rep, and that we're a worldwide company, and it paints a pretty bright picture for longevity.

So that, is both the explanation as to why the spread exists, and also as to why anyone with motivation can achieve those levels. Hopefully that makes sense.

BONUS QUESTION

Simply put, the raises and compensation questions you raise are invalid. They are not the way the Primerica compensation system works. For your reference, here's how it works. For simplicities sake, I'm only going to use Life Insurance compensation, but it works the same for all product lines.

Commission Rates, by Level:

Rep: 25%
Sr. Rep: 35%
District Leader: 50%
Division Leader: 60%
Regional Leader: 70%
Regional Vice President: 95%

Promotion Guidelines:

Rep: Obtain Life License
Sr. Rep: Hire 3 Associates
District: Do $2500 in yearly Life Premium in a month timespan
Division: Do $5000 in yearly Life Premium in a month timespan, have a direct District
Regional: Do $7500 in yearly Life Premium in a month Timespan, have 3 Direct Districts
RVP: Do $10,000 two months in a row.

You can obtain a District Promotion while in training. Thus the premise of your “Accelerated Management Program”. Thus, in effect, a 100% pay raise from 25% to 50% commission while unlicensed and still in training. You override your downlines' entire teams. Therefore the theory is that you will be overriding more people, with less on each individual. That may or not make sense, and if desired, I can explain in more detail.

So now it's MY turn. I've played your game, I've refuted your points, and answered your questions. I've given you a glimpse into what its like to be in a good Primerica office. Now I want information from you.

1) What was your encounter with Primerica?
2) If recruited, where and what office?
3) If recruited, what licenses were obtained, and how big and productive was your downline?
4) Who can you point to and with full faith go “Primerica has had a definitive and quantitative negative impact in that person's life”?

I notice your from Cleveland, OH. This happens to be where Christopher and Elizabeth Koob, Senior National Sales Directors, have their office. I happen to know they have one of the biggest and most productive hierarchies in the company. Pure speculation on my part tells me that either yourself or someone you has been for a brief time part of that. And you had a bad experience.

So either detail the bad one for me, or if you haven't been down there, look them up in the yellow pages, head down there on a Tuesday night, and realize that life is too short to be ignorant of the possibilities. Perhaps you or someone you know had a bad experience. Perhaps you're right. Perhaps you're wrong. I don't know you, and you don't know me. Chances are that this electronic media will be the only way we ever communicate.

Our viewpoints will also most likely not change, no matter how vicarious the other is in pursuing his point.

Here's what I know about you so far. You have a lot of free time on your hands. I know this because of the actions you've taken against Primerica, and indirectly, me. You're not 100% happy with your life because of the previous said reason and also that

“I own just six 4-unit apartments and my tenants are giving me hell.”.

I also know that you or someone close to you had an encounter in life that prompted this crusade of yours. Or, you're doing at the expense of lesser-minded individuals, for no reason other than your own personal pleasure.

You can deduce similar things about myself, although perhaps more positive. Here, in a nutshell, is my current outlook on life.

I am a 19-year-old former college student with above-average intelligence. My group of friends and contacts have over the course of a year gone from my drunken frat buddies to people making over a million dollars a year, the proverbial ‘fat-cats'. My travel life has gone from my little apartment in college to the frat and back to locations such as Belize, Hawaii, San Diego, Las Vegas, Fresno, and Germany. Some company-paid, some personally funded trips sponsored by the top producers in my office.

I am months away from being a Regional Vice President, making far more than I would have with a Master's Degree in Software Engineering from the Rochester Institute of Technology. Because of my perhaps blind faith and youthful exuberance, I am in a position that I feel is about as good as I could possibly be in.

See Jay, I know there are misconceptions about PFS. But then, what company doesn't have them? What company doesn't have its detractors? When I started, I began with a totally neutral and subjective approach. All I ask is that you read this from a totally subjective approach, handle it like an adult, and either disagree respectfully, or ask for clarification. Thanks for taking time to read this thoroughly, as I have read your insights.

Looking forward to our next conversation,
Cody

Dear Cody:

I'm going to go step-by-step through the MESS you sent me.

1. Thanks for sending an actual depiction of what you make per month. The problem with that is, you expected me to be confused on how to read the information listed (as I should be), but let me see how close I can get to its actual interpretation.

YOUR INCOME:

In looking at your income, okay, you're one of the people who just MAY make good with Primerica's flawed system. However, as I look further, you have only made $27,745.00 in the past 12 months. You have submitted $117,585 in premiums in the past 12 months which means you're making around 23.6% off of your sales. If I'm reading it wrong, then, hey, you left a lot of room for interpretation. But, if I am reading it right, then what the hell are you bragging about? I make $27,700 in my sleep (I'll explain this to you below)!

I have a question, what are advances? I see something that says "advances", then I see something that says "earns". Please explain the difference between the two? To my knowledge, an "advance" is monetary consideration that has to be paid back and what you "earn" is simply what you earn, PLEASE CLARIFY! Hey, Primerica uses the wrong definitions for a lot of words, so it won't surprise me that you all have a totally different definition for "advance" and "earn". It does look like you made text boxes over a couple of things on here (other than the black boxes), but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, GOOD JOB!

1A. TAXES - No person in America can operate without paying taxes (you have deductions, but can't avoid taxes) and I DO NOT SEE where you have paid taxes. Primerica may tell you that they have the magical system to keep reps from having to pay taxes, but BELIEVE ME you will pay taxes sooner or later. And please do not say that Primerica has already taken out taxes. REMEMBER, CODY, you “own your business” you have to file a 1099 form and pay the taxes on your own. But if they have already taken taxes, then somebody's getting screwed!

Please explain the "Now since we get paid 1099" in the following sentence, it doesn't making any sense to the point you are trying effortlessly to make:

"First one, Deb, is my mother. Left a job in September paying her roughly $2000 gross. Second one, Dave, left a job in October paying him $1800 gross. Now since we get paid 1099, these are take home incomes, which you probably already assumed."

By the way, I don't assume, not with money! Bad business practice!

WWW.PRIMERICA.COM – You also failed to address the fact that Primerica paid $573,000,000 dollars to what I now realize was 108,000 people in their sales force in 2004. This would change the average (without differences in income) to $5,305.56 per year per representative. You may need to take a look at your own website before you come on here with this garbage. Don't just address the comments you THINK you can refute, ADDRESS EVERYTHING! I'm also sure since you have a more in depth experience with Primerica, you can quote verbatim the actual income breakdowns. The people who are making over 4 million; over 1 million; 500K-1 million; 100K-500K; and 0 – 100K. Keep in mind, Primerica only paid $573 million last year!

Please stop writing people off as “not working hard” because they are not making money at Primerica. They are not making money because of the system of Primerica, not because 95% of Primerica does not work hard!

2. YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING HERE! You were trained by Primerica to recruit and sale products. Those products happen to be life insurance, annuities, and some other investment instruments. THAT IS WHY YOU NEED TO BE LICENSED! Licensed, because of the federal rules and regulations regarding financial instruments; you can't even distribute them without the government needing to know everyone that's attempting to sale these services. The licenses DON'T MAKE YOU A FINANCIAL ADVISOR/PLANNER; they make you a salesman who can sell investment instruments.

Talk about bad offices! In the past fiscal year, the 33 states, including the federal capital, (just in case you doubt) that Primerica tainted with their lack of ethics and bad business practices (to say the least) are:
Alaska, Ohio, Michigan, New York, The District of Columbia, Florida, Pennsylvania, Missouri, Texas, Illinois, Arkansas, Arizona, Indiana, Oregon, Nevada, Massachusetts, Georgia (Duluth, GA is home of Primerica corporate), Colorado, Wisconsin, Kentucky, Idaho, Oklahoma, Tennessee, North Carolina, Mississippi, Connecticut, Delaware, Iowa, Nebraska, South Dakota, New Jersey, Minnesota, Virginia, and Washington (in order of appearance). Not to mention, there are bad practices from several cities within these states. Cody, you kill me trying to make us think Primerica's bad business is only limited to a few bad offices. Everybody is generally saying the same thing about Primerica across the United States of America, but your office just happens to be “the lamb amongst the wolves”, give me a break!

2A. As for the training, I was told by the “District Leader” in Cleveland, Ohio, Dave Derbin ( you can call him by the way) that you don't make money until you receive your licenses that's why they encourage you to pursue them expeditiously. You mentioned yourself, the paid training does not come from PRIMERICA or CITIGROUP (why you mentioned them is pointless) but from your “office”, so paid training is at the discretion of your office and not a policy within the Primerica system. Again, I guess Rochester New York has the only office (out of 33 states and some Canadian provinces) paying for training, interesting!

By the way, I had the RVP calling me on the phone everyday and I was barely signed up. Just so you know his name is Howard Eisley. He's from Florida. One of the pseudo “District Managers” that operated on the west side of Cleveland, near the airport, was Dave Derbin as I mentioned earlier. I got offered a trip to Hawaii, before I even submitted my $199.00 (which I got back, because I cancelled the transaction).

3. You have a lot in your down line, 58 to be exact, and 7 of them even got licensed for life insurance. That's 12% of your down line making money; doesn't sound like an efficient system to me. By the way, are you paying 58 people $33.00 for every appointment, since you're the Division Leader? Were you even paying the 7 licensed people $33.00 per appointment? Are they making $2,000 per month off of training, (in addition to allegedly closing loans) also?

Because you did say,

“At my office a new recruit gets $33 per appointment regardless of business being done. Between my appointment compensation, which comes direct from your UPLINE, not Primerica or Citigroup, and compensation from closed loans, I made over $2000 my first month.”

But I guess they too can make $27,000 a year and become part of the class you all claim to be helping, lower to middle class! With all of the fillers you put in your response, you failed to prove how you are helping your reps make it to financial freedom. Because 7 of them have a license?! Are you really serious?!

4. Your fourth point was interesting because you start off insulting every other Primerica rep that has submitted threads on this website. Also, do you understand what the word “indirectly” means? Based on your response, you don't because it simply means, for example, one may do something in a round about way, in some way, circuitously! With that being said, Primerica seems to think that they can outperform every financial advisor, planner, consultant, or distributor of financial products (which IS why the efficient markets hypothesis applies) AND THAT'S HOW THEY INDIRECTLY CLAIM A SUSTAINED COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE!

4A. About your target market! Let's consider the lower class; they would not be your target market for a client sale, but a target market for recruiting purposes. Here's why: Most of the people that make up the lower class, DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY! They cannot buy a house, most, if not all of them are renting. Why they can't afford a house, because they make $25,000 or less a year (and that's giving them a lot of money). If they made more, then they wouldn't be considered lower class right! A house consists of a mortgage payment; insurance payment; tax payment; private mortgage insurance payment (remember lower class people would have to get this); utilities payments; maintenance; ETC. With only 1,900 dollars a month (gross), they will eventually have to foreclose their home. If you don't believe this, YOU need to look at some federal statistics! You think that you can recruit the lower class, because they don't have the same access to information as wealthier people, so it would be easy for you to sway them using your system. That's why you don't want someone who has already been in the industry, because you say, “they wouldn't understand why we do things the way we do them” (as quoted from the District Manager in Cleveland).

So that leaves the middle class. These people have a little bit of money to play around with—some with houses; investments, etc.; some without. The reason the middle class is Primerica's target market is because they have limited and/or little access to information and how they differ from the lower class is they are seeking more information. So I wouldn't necessarily call that a competitive advantage, more taking advantage of a class of people in need of financial services. Pretending like you know all about their situation, however, the only financial exposure any rep from Primerica has is what their up line taught them. Remember INSURANCE/FINANCIAL SALES LICENSE DOES NOT EQUAL FINANCIAL EXPERTISE! I can put sh_t in a bag and sell it as gourmet chocolate, but that don't make it gourmet!

4B. One of Primerica's biggest problems is, they are ALWAYS IMAGINING! Your imaging every investment will consistently have a return of 10 or 12% when, in fact, that's untrue. Stop imagining for a second and realize that everybody's situation is not “one-size-fits-all”! There is no such thing as the perfect world and it is just as unreasonable to assume that the basic package system can fit everybody's life style. I guarantee you, when the sh_t hits the fan, there are going to be a lot of lawsuits against Primerica for their “cookie-cutter” system. You know what though Cody, if you existed in the “real world” of financial advising, you would have made a lot of money just off the number of FNAs you've done. Considering you did around 250 FNAs multiplied by the average $300.00 per consultation, that's already $75,000 just off of a consultation! But, you're right, you can't charge a fee for showing someone an 8.5 x 11 brochure and call that a consultation!

By the way, CODY, PRIMERICA (REPS) DO NOT HAVE A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE! To have a competitive advantage (sustained), your profits must exceed the average for your industry and it doesn't; your cost must be lower than the average and it isn't (based on the fact that Primerica forwards all of the cost to the reps). Go to a financial website and check if you don't believe me! There are companies that cater to the middle class in the financial market and are doing extremely better than Primerica in terms of the products they distribute; the cost of those products; and the expertise they give the consumer. Want to know one, Ameriprise Financial Services, listed on the NYSE as AMP. They have a greater market share, and I'm sure you've seen the commercials; they do cater to the middle class! Primerica is the sticky stuff at the bottom of the barrel in the financial services industry!

5. A college degree, of course, does not equal experience. However, a college degree equals a sound understanding of the theory behind practical experience, which tends to lead to a better practical experience. You only know what your RVP told you, therefore, you can't understand any other financial principle other than the ones you were exposed to through them. Personally, I feel that you can tell me NOTHING about how to manage my income generated from my rental property. To do so would be an exercise in futility! As a matter of fact, I have a degree in finance and I will be taking the test for my CFM, CMA certifications—also I have just been asked by a local CPA firm to assist them with some tax consulting, so believe me, I have the creditability!

I am not saying that every financial advisor has to come from a financial educational background, what I am saying is, don't assume that Primerica salespeople can hold a candle to any REAL financial advisor in the industry, because their (Primerica's) training is geared towards a one-way approach, nothing else!

5A. A.L. Williams converted to Primerica Financial, you really should not have made that comment, because everyone knows the history of A.L. Williams. Also, why even mention the State Farm thing, what point are you trying to make? First, you talk about some company that you can't remember the name; then you mention State Farm's pilot company, similar to A.L. Williams (is that pilot company still in operation?); I guess the point is that whole paragraph was nothing but abstract garbage, you NEVER MADE YOUR POINT!

Essay Question
You stated, “Without corporations” the efficient markets hypothesis does not apply. This proves your level of intelligence and your understanding of the subject matter. If you REALLY UNDERSTOOD WHAT THE EFFICIENT MARKET HYPOTHESIS IS, you would know that its underlying principle is about financial markets; prices traded on assets; stock prices, investors investments and returns. If you don't know something, at least do a search!

The hypothesis applies, because it proves that in the financial market (isn't Primerica in the financial market) with already known information, investors CANNOT outperform current and future prospects that are investing in the market. Your labor is equal to your investment and your income, or lack therefore, is equal to your returns. You have the same information as everybody else in the financial market, including the people who were at Primerica before you. Remember you only operate with the ABC's of Financial Needs. Because that system is not going to change and Primerica holds NO NEW INFORMATION, the returns are already exhausted! The proof of that is on PRIMERICA'S WEBSITE AND THE RECRUITING TOOLS THEY DISTRIBUTE, I really shouldn't have to explain this to you.

DO YOUR MATH; YOU CLAIM TO BE A FINANCIAL EXPERT, PLEASE, DO YOUR MATH!

I don't have to pretend to be intelligent; the very nature of my ability to refute any Primerican in an effective, articulate way speaks to that. Grasping for straws, it seems like you are! You are grasping for straws because you thought everybody would think that the $117,000 was your salary and it's not. It's not because you prove it with your explanation of how you get raises. You've submitted $117,000 in life insurance premiums and made $27,000 off of that. That's not millions of dollars Cody, stop lying please!

WHO DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THAT there will be some people who will never hold a significant position is any job, but at least those people will make enough money to meet the cost of living. If everybody was a manager and above, then there would be no corporate hierarchy! Considering the actual breakdown of income from Primerica, if this were a career for everyone who worked for Primerica, there would be a lot of people left out in the cold.

The information (or scenario) you provided from the paragraph, “If the total office…” down to where you began to discuss the Bonus Question is full of generalizations; bad assumptions; and erroneous points; everyone that reads this would agree that I do not need to comment on this. However, concerning the compensation levels and raises, did I type that what I submitted was actually how Primerica it set up, NO; although, there was some paperwork that I received from Dave Derbin that spoke to that nature. I guess compensation and raises is yet another piece of Primerica's puzzle left up to the discretion of the individual office.

The Bonus Question
It's funny, your raise level says that if you do $7,500 dollars a month in yearly life premiums (and have 3 direct districts), then you will be Regional. Well you have submitted $117,585 worth of premiums over the past year, unless you don't have 3 direct districts, shouldn't you be Regional already? Cody, this is not a generalization, this is what YOU SUBMITTED! Also, how do you make commissions off of any financial product that is sold, if you don't have your license and yet you're still making commissions off of the sale of financial products, that, my friend, IS ILLEGAL! Again, the theory of overriding more people is erroneous, because if those people are not generating any income there is nothing to override. That's why YOU HAVE 58 PEOPLE IN YOUR DOWN LINE AND ONLY MAKE $27,000!

You can NEVER refute me! The fact still remains, “the truth taste better than a belly full of lies.” Your belly is FULL buddy! I have broken everything that you submitted down to a fine mound of powder. How dare you even attempt to comment on anything I wrote, you don't have the ability!

The Game
Let's play your game:

Answer to question one: Read the rest of my threads, not going to write another book. You will see them, because they are from Cleveland & Euclid, Ohio respectively.

Answer to question two: Was recruited by Dave Derbin, alleged District Manager from Pittsburgh, PA. Claimed he came over to Cleveland, Ohio because there were no other representatives in the area. But, you have proven him wrong. Don't believe me, call him, Dave Derbin (440) 915-5083, he'll be happy to here from you. Also, they didn't even have a business office; he and his colleagues out of the Hampton Inn off of Engle Road!

Answer to question three: Do you think I was that stupid to continue on with that mess, please! As I stated in the beginning of my comments, I make $27,000 in my sleep. Check this out: although my 6 4-unit apartments give me hell, they provide a gross income of $15,600 per month. I also have income coming from 24 washers and 24 dryers, so you see Cody, that's effective gross income of $189,200 per year (before operating expenses, debt services, depreciation, and taxes). Remember Cody, this is MY PART TIME JOB, in my full time job; I make around $48,000 per year (before tax and adjusted for overtime). I file taxes, a Schedule E (rents and royalties) and NO, I didn't have or need any down line.

Answer to question four: There are close to 490 threads and 30+ pages of comments on this website concerning Primerica, I'm sure you can find the answer to this question in here. I personally don't associate with anyone from Primerica. When I did consider joining, it was only to add to my current income, I don't need Primerica, Primerica needs me!

My time is money, they (Primerica) wasted my time with the garbage they tried to offer me, and therefore, they wasted my money. Not only that, they asked me for employment references, took my references and called them for an investment opportunity. No, I have not met Christopher and Elizabeth Koob, don't care to meet them, they have nothing to offer me.

You say I don't know you, yet you claim to know something about me. In what way do you think you will ever know me? MY LIFE IS GREAT and that's why choose to make the time to come in here and defend people and hope my words protect people from making a decision about Primerica without knowing all of the facts. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE having tenants that give me HELL, never said it was a problem; I love over $15,000 a month of income! They give me hell because everybody wants a break, just like Primerica wants a break, but in the REAL WORLD, you don't get them. I work very hard and I have time on my hands because I did the hard work up front. With 58 people in your down line, how do you have so much time?

A few things to consider, before you try to break down anything that I write, study up. One, you used the word, “vicarious” out of context, so why would you even be able to understand how to correlate the efficient markets hypothesis to Primerica's financial system.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines “vicarious” (adjective) as:
Felt or undergone as if one were taking part in the experience or feelings of another.

You used it like this:
“Our viewpoints will also most likely not change, no matter how vicarious the other is in pursuing his point.”

It looks like you were trying to find a large word to use there; shame on you Cody. Two, if I read your comments from a subjective point of view that would mean that I'm reading your comments from a slanted, skewed, one-sided point of view. Wouldn't the proper term be objective? I can see spelling/grammatical errors (and commonly misused words e.g. your vs. you're), but using words out of context comes from a person trying to sound intelligent!

In conclusion, I don't think there is anything unprofessional about the way I have presented THE FACTS (and some of my opinions) about Primerica. The truth is; it left a bad taste in your mouth. Remember, that comes from consuming a whole bunch of lies and deceptions. You DIDN'T READ my comments thoroughly because you didn't comment on Primerica's income breakdown, but I guess you practice selective reading.

P.S. Stay in school!

1. You attempt to make this point:

"Now I think it would be unreasonable to assume that left to their own devices, they would formulate a strategy to get out of that hole. It's also unreasonable to assume they would seek help they would have to pay to get."

This is extremely contradictory; Primerica charges fees for services, not upfront, direct fees, but they charge them. If we apply the "Cody theory" then they wouldn't want Primerica's services either now would they Cody. Pay attention to this Cody because it is real important: YOUR COMMISSIONS COME FROM THE FEES THAT ARE PAID BY YOUR CLIENTS! But, you further stated:

"For no monetary fee, we formulate a plan to address all of those areas."

2. You attempt to make this point:

"They have either no insurance, or are drastically underinsured because they have been sold an inappropriate and overly expensive whole life product."

Primerica really believes everyone in the world has whole life insurance and everyone needs term. Do you even realize there are others in this world that sells term life insurance. My company offers it. It is NOTHING NEW!

3. You attempt to make this point:

"By the time a Primerica Rep actually assembles his first FNA, he has seen at least a dozen preceding that one during his training, that his trainer has done for him."

Why do you call this training, when it's, in fact, a sales pitch to whomever you convinced to do a "favor" for you (as Dave Derbin so eloquently suggested).

4. You attempt to make this point:

"You are correct in the fact however, that in an environment such as Primerica, there will be many people making little money, and few making a lot of money. You are incorrect however, in assuming that is a bad thing."

Actually I said in Primerica, there will be 5% winners and 95% losers. Also, if someone is using Primerica as their only means of income, you are pretty much a lot people that work for Primerica poor and worst off than before they took the opportunity. As you said, it's not a bad if there are a lot of people not making good money or any money at all for their efforts. That's impressive! By the way, who comes to your office just to have a good feeling?

5. You attempt to make this point:

"If the total Office cash flow for a month is $150,000, this is how it would be distributed. Maybe $35,000 would go to the RVP. $25,000 would go to the full-time Reps, an average of $5,000 a rep. The remaining $90,000 would go to the part time reps, on an average of $2,000 a rep.

This is purely hypothetical, but illustrates how a typical Primerica Office is run. If the office is smaller, the numbers go down in proportion, and vice-versa."

Why be hypothetical, be factual! You should because you've proven made only around $3,600 in one month, that's good, also that may or may not be factual. You also showed that you made $27,742 for the fiscal year, that's factual (Based on the information you provided). Also remember that $573,000,000 divided 108,000 equals $5,305.56. That doesn't change, it is basic arithmetic! Please Cody, take the time to go on www.primerica.com; pull the 2004 payout (by Primerica); adjust for differences in income and you will prove to yourself that a typical RVP office DOES NOT MAKE $150,000 per month.

6. You attempt to make this point:

"In September for example, the company had its' best recruiting month EVER. They recruited just over 30,000 new people worldwide. But we'll just include the US Population for this illustration. If the entire US Population were frozen in age, assuming a population of 350 million, of which 220 million are over 18, at the current record rates, it would take around 611 years to recruit everyone."

Again, why assume. The US population is 297,834,268 as of December 8, 2005 20:14 GMT (EST+5). In 2004 there were 212.7 million over 18 years of age . Plus, in 2004, with the labor force being 145.4 million (16 yrs and over), your recruiting analysis is invalid. Use real numbers, it's easy to find that out on the web. It took me 15 seconds!

7. You attempt to make this point:

"Or from purely a client standpoint, Primerica currently has 6 million clients worldwide. Again, we'll assume we're only using US Population. Of the 350 million citizens, we'll assume 80 million families. To get those 6 million clients, it took 27 years to get those. It would take 360 years at the current rate to service all those people."

STOP, PLEASE STOP NOW! This is getting ridiculous! As previously stated and proven if you go on "Hoover's Online", those clients that you are IMAGINATING about are ALREADY CLIENTS OF OTHER MORE SUCCESSFUL COMPANIES. They do not want or need your services.

I think the only point that was correct was that the US population is growing faster than Primerica reps, although the point behind in is a fallacy of composition, but true (only that US is growing faster than Primerica reps) nonetheless!

Enough said:
Cody, it's actually pretty good to see a young man (19) may be making around 27K per year. How long that will last, you and I don't know. Just like many multi-level-marketing systems, the bottom will probably drop out. However, you're young, you can bounce back.

As for the evidence you presented here, thanks, because it gives us one of the greatest examples of how Primerica is deceptive and vague. I wonder was that story about the population the same story your RVP gave you. If so, tell him/her to think of another one, it's not working.

Try Again Cody!

Anybody who has scoured the RoR for information on the Primerica opportunity, heed this call: READ THOUGH THIS REPORT. READ THE REBUTTALS AND THE UPDATES, AND CHECK THE SOURCES CITED THAT ARE CITED TO.

Jay has PROVEN that this opportunity is bogus. And he didn't even need to rely on the word of Primerica-haters to do so. He used THE VERY WORDS AND NUMBERS that Primerica has used to entice you, and shown you exactly what those words and numbers mean.

Anybody that is still confused, still wondering whether a Primerica gig is for them: READ JAY'S WORDS! By taking the time to write what he has written, he has done you a HUGE favor!

Blind faith is NO WAY to run a "business." If you truly want to own your own business, the first thing you should know is
that you DO NOT depend on the word of the people who have a vested interest in your activity. Jay is objective, your upline is not.

As for the Product end, allow me to interject with a very simple proposition:

The Primerica “plan,” in a general sense, is as follows: lower payments are better than higher payments because you can invest the difference, and debt is ALWAYS bad.

The problem, however, is that this “one size fits all” approach doesn't even work within its own confines.

The “buy term and invest the difference” hypothesis is based on the assumption that you can earn a 10-12% rate of return.

But the “get rid of debt as soon as possible” hypothesis only works if your rate of return is LESS than the average APR of your credit line.

So, if Primerica is marketing loan products, then those products are definitively non-competitive or possibly predatory, based solely on internal “philosophies.” WHY? It's simple! (sort of)

Responsibly managed debt is favorable to “pay it off quick and invest the difference” SO LONG AS the expected rate of return exceeds the APR on the debt.

So, if paying off the debt in a shorter period is the way to go, AND the expected rate of return is 10-12%, then the APR on Primerica financing MUST exceed 10-12% for the financial plan to be “solid.“ And this, definitively, is NOT a good financial plan because the average ROR will be (at least today, and historically) higher than the average APR.

The “opportunity” is thus bogus, the product is garbage, and these two points are provable via Primerica's own numbers combined with sheer logic. If you need more convincing , then you NEED to learn your lesson the hard way. If such is the case, then I feel for you, but don't say that you weren‘t warned.

This thread is getting longer and longer. The information out there against the Primerica reps claims is readily available. In reference to the pilot program that Cody mentioned State Farm allegedly has out for insurance is nothing like Cody attempted to describe. The program is called the S.L.A.T.E. program (State Farm Learning and Teaching Exchange). This is the excerpt straight from the website:

"State Farm® Learning and Teaching Exchange (S.L.A.T.E.)
State Farm recognizes the benefit of ongoing, meaningful professional development for teachers. Unfortunately many schools are unable to honor some requests for developmental opportunities for their teachers because of a lack of available and qualified substitutes. In response, State Farm developed a program to address this concern. The State Farm Learning and Teaching Exchange program (S.L.A.T.E.) began as a PILOT PROGRAM at State Farm's corporate location and has been shared company wide to other State Farm locations for consideration. The program builds on an existing policy allowing State Farm employees a yearly paid Education Support (ES) day to volunteer in a local school. Choosing to use their Education Support Day benefit in this manner, State Farm employees volunteer as a substitute teacher in a school for a prearranged professional development opportunity for the partnering teacher.

The S.L.A.T.E. program provides a cost savings to the partnering school districts as well. By utilizing S.L.A.T.E. substitutes, districts are not challenged to use their funds to hire substitutes when teachers are involved in professional development. In times of tight budgets, schools can allocate their substitute teacher budget for those times when teachers are sick or have an immediate need to be out of the classroom. This program also allows State Farm employees, as community citizens and taxpayers, the opportunity to truly understand the environment and challenges of today's schools...."

AGAIN, THIS IS AN EXCERPT FROM STATE FARM'S WEBSITE!

With that being said; I really feel sorry for these reps, because, the upper echelon of Primerica really has them believing every word they speak. I'm sure the State Farm pilot recruiting program was yet another lie from the Primerica RVP's bucket of tricks. Also if you want to know the REAL HISTORY of Primerica, search Primericabuster.com. You will really get an understanding of their checkered past. This scam has been going on for years now, but they have it covered well.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT THE SCAM IS WITH ALL THE PRODUCTS THEY DISTRIBUTE, BUT WITH THE RECRUITING. ALTHOUGH IT HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT SOME REPS ARE PREDATORY IN THEIR MARKETING TECHIQUES FOR TERM vs. CASH VALUE POLICIES! (see PrimericaBuster)

There has already been case law established that set a precedent in favor of Primerica. As a result, it will be difficult to get a class action lawsuit against them to stand. Until we can circumvent that particular case law, we MUST continue to use RipOffReport as a way to document our experiences with Primerica and its affiliates.

I see Cody did $117,000 of life premium and he made $23,600. Had he been writing with good term life companies he would have have about $72,000 to $76,000.

First of all, the premiums charged to the clients would have been about $80,000 total rather than $117,000, and commission rates are about 90-95% with other companies.

If a client needs term insurance a quick check with the an internet search engine will show many MANY highly rated companies with much lower rates for men. Primerica's rates for women are just ridiculously high because the have unisex rates and charge men and women the same. No one else does this. Women pay far, far less with other companies than they do Primerica.

Primerica is, was and always shall be "rubes selling to rubes". It will be people who bought a sales pitch hook, line and sinker, going out on a mission to make others swallow the same canned sales pitch.

I'm excerpting from your post of 12/8:

Talk about bad offices! In the past fiscal year, the 33 states, including the federal capital, (just in case you doubt) that Primerica tainted with their lack of ethics and bad business practices (to say the least) are:
Alaska, Ohio, Michigan, New York, The District of Columbia, Florida, Pennsylvania, Missouri, Texas, Illinois, Arkansas, Arizona, Indiana, Oregon, Nevada, Massachusetts, Georgia (Duluth, GA is home of Primerica corporate), Colorado, Wisconsin, Kentucky, Idaho, Oklahoma, Tennessee, North Carolina, Mississippi, Connecticut, Delaware, Iowa, Nebraska, South Dakota, New Jersey, Minnesota, Virginia, and Washington (in order of appearance). Not to mention, there are bad practices from several cities within these states. Cody, you kill me trying to make us think Primerica's bad business is only limited to a few bad offices. Everybody is generally saying the same thing about Primerica across the United States of America, but your office just happens to be “the lamb amongst the wolves”, give me a break!

Let's add California to this list. I'm excerpting
from a report (the link is http://www.insurance.ca.gov/0400-news/
0100-press-releases/0090-2004/release091-04.cfm):

"BENICIA – On October 27, 2004, Herbert Amos Jones, 47, of Bethel Island, California, pled guilty in Contra Costa Superior Court to one felony count of grand theft. Jones, a former California-licensed insurance agent and regional vice president of Primerica Financial Services (PFS), was arrested as the result of an investigation by the California Department of Insurance's Investigation Division (CDI)."

(technically speaking Jay you're within your rights to say that this didn't occur within the past fiscal year, but the main focus is that we're talking about bad offices and this is a clearcut case that goes beyond mere bad practice. BTW I like your magnificent reports).

accuser - Using this hypothesis, this would suggest that Primerica will always have 5% of the reps in their company making over $50-100K and the remainder making significantly less. Acknowledging insider trading is illegal, this would further suggest that the only way to excel to the top 5%, you have to be lucky or do something illegal and/or unethical.

Response - I find most of your test amusing. But, this has no resemblence of reality. Your assumption is that because only 5% earn an average of $150,000 (the RVP's) that somehow our company is worse than any other company. Here is a question for you. How many or what percent in your business or company earn $50,000 a year? $100,000 a year. In your world, only a few at the top have the possibility to earn that kind of money since for others to move up the corporate pyramid, people have to get fired, get sick or die for room to open up. And, only a few will ever move up, far less than the 5% Primerica produces.
To also bring you into reality, the company is clear to put out recruiting materials that clearly remind persons joining that there are no guarantees to sucess in Primerica. Success is up to how a recruit responds to the prescribed mode of development. Most, don't follow this. That is not Primerica's fault. Also, the company expressly desires new persons to start part-time and not leave their full-time jobs until a person can live on their Primerica income. Someone agreed with you and shows that the average income of all agents that don't earn the big bucks is about $5,800. Now, if I work 4 hours a day for 5 days a week part-time at a conveinence store at $9hr., the monthly part-time income would be $9,360 a year. However, there is no possibility to advance or ever have an opportunity to earn $50,000 or more a year. Also, most part-time persons that write business go on appointments less than once a week work less than 3 hours a week. When I worked part-time with them, I worked once or twice a week and brought in about $1,100 a month part-time. Therefore, I still got to see my family and earn enought to get by with my full-time teaching job.
Not everyone is a sales person. But, all should have the right to try it if they want to without bitter persons stopping them with stupid articles like you wrote.

Questiong 1: May I see you post your current income to everyone on line? No? That is a stupid request. If you want to check it out, the company posts income for its leaders every month. If there is something wrong with the numbers, then why over the last 28 years has the company not been shut down by the FEDS? Your assertions are lame. Grow up.

Although I'm not there yet, my uplines are. And, if I follow their lead and do what they did, I'll be there too! You really out to go to a party thrown by our leaders and you will know what real freedom is. Stop being so miserable!

To become financially free, a person must recruit a large down line to find great sales people and leaders. You are aware that the insurance industries numbers suggest that 85% quit in only a couple of years! It's not an easy business period. It is quite competitive and thus, one has to have a thick skin to progress forwards. Most don't! But, all should have the right to find out what they are made of.

Take the insurance industry. Since over 80% of the life policies are cash value policies, that gives me a big advantage because they are easy to show clients how little coverage they can afford and what little cash build up they get for their money. Easy to replace with "buy term and invest the difference." Huge competitive edge.

accusation - List why you feel an individual with no educational or career background in finance can give an expert, informed, subjective financial analysis and why you feel an individual who HAS that background and experience, can not?

Response - Take an insurance agent for instance that goes along with the industry average with respect to selling cash value policies. When I can triple a clients coverage and help them have 5 times the money at retirement, you can take the so called "expert" and do you know what with them. The fact is, these so called experts really only have one year's experience and have done this over and over "giving the public a steady line of sacred bull." - Ralph Nader. Let me ask you a question. If you had the choice of being covered for $15,000 or $150,000 with the same premium, which policy would you choose to cover your two young children, one on the way and your precious wife if you die??? I chose the $150,000 when Primerica showed me how I was drastically underinsured by a ripoff agent peddling cash value policies. Also, your professionals hold the same licenses Primerica agents hold. They passed the same test and took the same pre-licensing classes. I'm not concerned with what you think an expert is. In my book, it's a person that gives me $150,000 coverage instead of $15,000 for the same price.

By the way, trying to equate what the stock market does and why with how people respond to a business opportunity is really unintelligent. There is no correlation between the two. One has to do with market fluctuations and the other has to do with personalities. Get real!

Accusation - Can you break down the promotion process, in detail? Be sure to explain how a representative can receive two 48% raises in their first 60-90 days using the ‘accelerated management program'. Does this raise consist of your ‘up-line' receiving a lower commission in addition to your recruits, or does this suggest that the raise comes solely from your recruits which means they (your recruits) are making only 4%?

Response - Deceptive question. You first have to identify the product since each have different percentages for commissions. But, you should also note that a promotion can only be given after a person is appointed to Primerica Life. Thus, if it takes 90 days to get the license, he can not receive any commissions from life sales. But, if the recruit doesn't accomplish the 3 recruits, he would be at a "rep" level receiving 25% commission on annual paid premium amounts. If the recruit recruits 3 persons, the RVP can promote them to a "District" leader which is paid 50% on the life premiums. That's a 100% increase in "potential" commission when they sell a policy. 2(48%) = 96% is wrong. I'm sorry you can't understand simple math. What your 4% annalogy is makes no sense. We earn money four ways. Direct commissions from our own personal sales, overrides from agent sales(just like real estate agents earn their splits or overrides when they sell houses or loans), residual income from the sales of securities and bonuses for the RVP's.

DIRECTIONS
Please provide a complete, concise, subjective analysis of the material. You will be graded for your understanding of the subject matter; content; and supporting documentation. Failure to do so will result in an ‘F' and further proof on why Primerica's system is flawed.

What a stupid set of directions. You in no way can judge me for my knowledge since you can't even understand what an override is. Not only that, everything you wrote only shows you know nothing about MLM, real estate, financial serives or corporate business structures. You receive an F for your lack of knowledge in all these areas.

"Someone agreed with you and shows that the average income of all agents that don't earn the big bucks is about $5,800." So Jimmy boy let me pose your question back to you. How many companies are around where their employees are averaging $5,800 annually? (I thought the number was closer to $5,300?). As far as part time goes, in my state employees working 20 hours a week make minimally (minimum wage) $6,396 a year which next year goes up to $7,346. Let's throw in that you have to start off paying $199 to get a license plus more money towards other licenses plus gas money and wear and tear on the car plus other types of business expenses.

Now Jimmy boy, you old shiller you, who really works part time at Crimerica? The idea is you have to bust your butt to make the big money which means over 40 hours a week (including rah-rah meetings) which is a big wear and tear on the agents (any wonder why the turnover is over 100,000 agents a year?). So Jimmy boy you're offering to document what you say with a copy of your tax return (should I hold my breath?) As part
of the documentation, what is your title? how big
is your downline? and how long have you been at Crimerica?

For those who think I'm being nasty with Jimmy boy, I have every right to be. I quote again:

"Victim of a consumer Rip-off? Want justice? Rip-off Report™ is a worldwide consumer reporting Website & Publication, by consumers, for consumers, to file & document complaints about companies or individuals who ripoff consumers."

and ask: how are YOU helping out the victims of Crimerica Jimmy boy?

Jim, you said "Your assumption is that because only 5% earn an average of $150,000 (the RVP's)..."

Jay provided statics from Primerica's pamphlet that indicates only 5% of people from Primerica earns over $50,000 a year. How did you come up with the $150,000 figure?

You said "Not everyone is a sales person. But, all should have the right to try it if they want to without bitter persons stopping them with stupid articles like you wrote."

There some people with a kind heart who works at Primerica. I feel sorry for them to have rude hotheads like you who are representing the same company that they work for. No wonder Primerica forbids its agent to post on the Internet. People like you are making the reputation of the company worse than it already is.

You said:

"Questiong 1: May I see you post your current income to everyone on line? No? That is a stupid request. If you want to check it out, the company posts income for its leaders every month. If there is something wrong with the numbers, then why over the last 28 years has the company not been shut down by the FEDS? Your assertions are lame. Grow up."

What sense would it make to refer to the leaderboard when neither you nor over 99% of people who works for Primerica make one money that kind of money? Not suprising at all that the only way you can you respond to Jay's question is to avoid it and then change the topic by attacking him.

You keep making it sound like you're going to make it big in Primerica. But when we ask you to show proof, you too coward to provide it. How can anyone believe your claim? We're not talking about how much the top earners make. We're talking about how much you make, which is why it is pointless to refer to the leaderboard.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong. As far as I understand, the earnings of the leaders posted on the website only list the gross income. It doesn't deduct any of the business expenses. Simply looking at those figures is misleading.

Mr. Jim:

INTRO: "READING IS FUNDAMENTAL” Take your time and read, please! If you can't pronounce words use your vowels. Also, if you don't know what something means, grab a dictionary, encyclopedia, or go on the internet!

Now that I got that out of the way...

Lucky for you, I was on vacation when you submitted this garbage on my thread. I bet you're walking around now like you have an "S" on your chest (you probably won't catch that joke) thinking that you've refuted me, unfortunately, you haven't!

I never thought I would go here, but your rebuttal was one of the dumbest, poorly written rebuttals I have ever read on here. What subject do you teach? At least Cody tried (to no avail)! Next time, don't write with so much anger. But since you did, let's see what I can find in your poor writing examples...

First off, I see that you not a very good reader (please reread the intro). You quote me as saying that Primerica reps will always have only 5% of their sales force making over 50K; then you turn that number into 150K. How ridiculous are you for trying to pull that wool over our eyes. The fact is, in the company I am currently employed in 30-35% of the 18,000+ employees at my job make over 50K. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, YOU IDIOT! (I really didn't want to go there, but you made me, seriously)

Hey Jim, COMPANY GROWTH is what allows more employees to move up the corporate ladder, not just retirement, termination, resignation, (which you didn't mention) sickness, etc. That's the real world, Primerica is the only company that needs a pep rally to continue to sell their false promises to their reps and it looks like you went all in. I bet you were all in when you heard the Cody story about the ‘population being frozen in time; assuming 350 million people in the world, we would need 1,000 years to recruit them' garbage. THE TRUTH, Primerica is not growing as consistently as any other financial services company. They had 108K reps in 1992 (do your homework, please) and they have AROUND 108K OR LESS, NOW! Jim, do you have a backbone, please stop coming on here selling that s__t your "RVP" told you. We're not walking down the ‘yellow brick road' looking for brains; therefore, we are not easily influenced!

May I ask; why did you go into this ‘part-time' employment spiel? The biggest problem with your analogy is that you fail to realize that the $5,800 is not the average for “all agents that don't earn the big bucks” that is the average for Primerica's entire payout to ALL OF ITS AGENTS! Obviously you didn't read my thread thoroughly, nor did you research Primerica's website thoroughly. Just because you're you, I will repeat myself. In 2004, Primerica paid out 573 million dollars to a workforce of 100-108k reps! Look on the damn website please, IT IS PRIMERICA'S WEBSITE, you should have already done this! Can YOU do basic arithmetic, because that averages out to $5,730-5,305.56 dollars a year per person (without adjusted for differences in income, expenses for being an independent contractor, and taxes)!

Mr. Jim, how are you part time when you are required (in your first 90 days and beyond) to go to 2 Money and Business Seminars per week (a Weekday and a Saturday); constantly recruit (you're an independent contractor, this is considered work); give your up line your family's business; make sure your down line is recruiting and your getting their business; etc. That's a lot of stuff, Jim. Oh yeah, believe me, you were not making even $1,100 per month, remember Jim, your superiors are OVERRIDING YOUR INCOME! How dare you insinuate that I don't know what an override means! Does Primerica know what District Manager, Regional Vice President, mean; they use those titles quite loosely!

Aside: I thought this comment was funny, “Not everyone is a sales person. But, all should have the right to try it if they want to without bitter persons stopping them with stupid articles like you wrote.”

Jim, how am I stopping people with my stupid article? If they chose to consider the facts, isn't that their decision? I mean they could take your approach, although most intelligent people wouldn't. My article could not have been that stupid, you seem to think it's stopping Primerica from getting recruits!

You wrote this: “May I see you post your current income to everyone on line? No? That is a stupid request. If you want to check it out, the company posts income for its leaders every month. If there is something wrong with the numbers, then why over the last 28 years has the company not been shut down by the FEDS? Your assertions are lame. Grow up.”

You make this statement because of what? No one without access to Primerica's intranet would see your company's income posts, right Jim. Or maybe you didn't realize that. How is it stupid to have to validate a claim you make. It's stupid to you, because you can't validate any claim and you know deep down in your heart that Primerica has failed you. What's funny is, you tell me to grow up! I'll grow up when Primerica reps grow up; I'll grow up when Primerica reps take a real finance and investing class; I'll even grow up when Primerica focuses more on customizing their financial products instead of on recruiting. Grow up you say?

Jim it looks like you are the still surviving off of the ‘baby bottles' of financial planning. Like babies reaction to sounds and colors, you are still amused by the glitz and glamour of the Primerica lights flashing in your eyes! Going to a Primerica party DOES NOT put money in your pocket. They do that Jim to attempt to impress upon you the illusion that they live the “good life”; it's all smoke and mirrors. In that way, you feel like you are rubbing elbows with the ‘big wigs', when, in fact, these people are no different from you.

Aside: In what way am I miserable? Are you just angry because I exposed the fact about Primerica? You can be angry, but dude, I'm not the one that's miserable in this thread!

You wrote, “Take the insurance industry. Since over 80% of the life policies are cash value policies, that gives me a big advantage because they are easy to show clients how little coverage they can afford and what little cash build up they get for their money. Easy to replace with "buy term and invest the difference." Huge competitive edge.”

This is personally for you Jim.

-Term Insurance (if you were taught different, then I understand why you are like you are)-
Coverage - In its simplest form, term insurance is insurance that last one year. The variant that gives term its value (and is commonly purchased) is annual renewable term. The period is normally for 10 to 20 years, but it often sold in increments of 10, 15, 20, & 30 years, respectively. In this form, the premium paid each year is the same, and is the cost of each year's annual renewable term rates averaged over the term, with a time value of money adjustment made by the insurer. Thus the longer the term the premium is level for, the higher the premium, because the older, more expensive to insure years are averaged into the premium.

**Still with me?!**

Payout - Insurance industry studies show that the likelihood of a payout to an individual with term life insurance is 1%. If you don't believe me, then study up on your OWN INDUSTRY genius! THAT, my friend, is why term insurance is so cheap. The low payout percentage is a combo there being a low probability (in aggregate) of a healthy person dying within a short period of time, combined with some term premiums rising every year so that the insured finally does not continue the policy as they get older (and more likely to die). Due to this low probability of payout, THIS IS WHY SMART PEOPLE CONVERT TO PERMANENT LIFE INSURANCE! Not because people are unaware of term life insurance Mr. Jim.

**You do know that payout percentages are determined by statistical probability tests right?!**

The main benefit of term life insurance is to cover an individual who can't afford permanent life insurance. This term coverage should only last until a person can afford permanent life insurance. Remember Mr. Jim, you get tax deferred growth of cash value and greater likelihood of receiving a death benefit, which is also usually tax free. I hope Primerica is giving their clients conversion privileges, because if not, they are going to be screwed in the long run. Because in the long run (which is what life insurance is for anyway) permanent life insurance is cheaper than term because the premiums are fixed in most cases and you accumulate the cash value. If you were investor savvy you could still use permanent life insurance like term by borrowing against the value and investing the non-taxed proceeds (since it is a loan)—making a profit off of the spread in interest! Of course that depends on the interest you're paying and the interest you're getting.

There are many variables to life insurance, in general, especially with term insurance and you need to educate your clients on the foundation of term insurance which I have spelled out for you. That's, again, the life of a real financial consultant. By the way, Primerica may hold the same licenses as financial consultants (because everybody in the industry has to), but the big difference is that the individuals who hold the title “financial consultant, advisor, planner” have CFP, CFM, CMA, CPA, MBA, or JD, etc. certifications and majority of Primerica reps don't. The difference in the real world of financial planning is that the individuals just entering the industry are trained by professionals with those credentials and experience to back it up. Mr. Jim, Primerica does not have the ability to step to that level and NEVER WILL! With your 15,000 to 150,000 policy example (which is erroneous and sounds like your RVP thought of that analogy), I'd take the $150,000 from another insurance company and convert it to permanent life insurance after 25 years with no increase in premium. But, I receive $50K life insurance just for working for my company and have brought much more for a premium that I know Primerica can't beat.

FOR THE LAST TIME, PLEASE ALL PRIMERICA GENIUSES READ UP ON THE EFFICIENT MARKETS HYPOTHESIS AND THEORY! Jim, the stock market is just a COMPONENT of the theory, but its underlying principle is INVESTOR BEHAVIOR! Please stop making uneducated judgments, because it makes you look retarded! You're a teacher; I thought you would be smarter than that.

I'm not going any further with this because you are all brawn AND NO BRAINS (which is surprising for a teacher).

The “Plain, Unvarnished Truth” about Primerica
THE MLM OF THE FINANCIAL MARKET!

This report is for everyone, Anti-Primerica and Pro-Primerica. It is time for everyone to be given the absolute truth concerning the opportunity Primerica presents. I don't care if the Primericans try to negate the findings here, because none of them has done the extensive research that I, nor the author of this report has done in order to communicate to everyone the finding on ANY multi-level-marketing opportunity!

The Direct Selling Association (www.dsa.org) is an association that lists all of the MLM opportunities around the world. Most, if not all companies that are involved in an MLM and/or direct selling opportunity is registered with the D.S.A. Primerica reps (Jim to name a few) claim that all insurance companies (and financial service companies alike) recruit the same way they do; have similar meetings as they do; etc. However, upon searching DSA.ORG, I found that Primerica Financial Services is the ONLY financial services company registered with the D.S.A. (based on the search allowed to non-members). This means that Primerica is NOT focused on their product, but how they recruit people to believe in their product. Further, Primerica's registration face-sheet states that PRIMERICA IS A MLM BUSINESS!

Jon M. Taylor PhD, President of the Consumer Awareness Institute put together the “Top Ten Things I Learned from Ten Years Research on Network Marketing or MLM”.

For the Primericans (with obvious doubt) this the information presented in this report was gathered from the following:

•Extensive comparative research on MLM compensation plans and alternative business models to clarify differences

•Interviews with and feedback from thousands of MLM distributors and ex-distributors in a wide variety of MLM programs

•Interviews with the top experts in the field

•Surveys of hundreds of tax professionals where MLM is concentrated, representing thousands of MLM's tax returns

•Court records in MLM cases (including IRS income tax records of top distributors in one state)

•Household consumer surveys regarding MLM participation

•Surveys of leading MLM company presidents

•Private and public financial disclosures by MLM companies

•Communications with law enforcement officials at all levels

•Direct experience with prominent MLM companies

So without further ado here's Dr. Taylor's “Top Ten Things He Learned” and I hope we all will take heed:

**Comments directed toward Primerica were entered into the report by me.
__________________
1. MLM promoters work hard to make their programs appear
innocent, but most MLM's result in loss rates exceeding 99%.

“Multi-level marketing” (a.k.a., “MLM,” or “network marketing”) programs have great appeal to vulnerable consumers seeking to improve their lot in life. Some people are drawn to MLM's by their apparent low cost of initial participation, by the need to be part of a group dedicated to a common purpose, by the appeal of products with magical properties, and by the promise of "residual" second income or early retirement. MLM is often insidious in its apparent innocence – and at the same time pernicious in its inevitable impoverishment of nearly all participants to the degree of their investments in time and money. While losses (mostly from unused product purchases) are minimal for many participants, harm to some can be great, including heavy debt, home foreclosures, career disruptions, and bankruptcy. Other harmful effects often include inordinate focus on materialism, exploitation of valued friendships, obsessive focus on MLM contributing to divorce, and damage to self-esteem.

Most MLM participants are not seeking an “opportunity,” but are recruited by someone close to them. It is sold as a legitimate home business to “earn a little extra money,” to pay bills or college costs, to donate to worthy causes, etc. The reality is far different. By promoting infinite (endless chain) recruitment in finite markets, they mathematically doom the vast majority of participants to financial loss. The loss rate for “recruiting MLM's” (See #2 below) is approximately 99.9%; i.e., about 999 out of 1,000 participants lose money! Such odds are far worse than for no-product pyramid schemes and even worse than for many games of chance in gambling centers like Las Vegas. World wide, millions of MLM participants lose an aggregate total of tens of billions of dollars annually.

It is also important to note that many recruiters for MLM companies insist that they are NOT "MLM" (or "multi-level marketing"), etc. Instead, they are doing "network marketing," "consumer direct marketing," or "direct selling." This should tell you something. Their efforts to distance themselves from MLM suggest that much of the public has figured out that they are not legitimate. To be more specific, I can recall when, over 30 years ago, MLM promoters sensed that "multi-level marketing" sounded too much like a pyramid scheme, so they loudly trumpeted their new moniker – "network marketing." They claimed they were merely making use of a powerful word-of-mouth form of advertising. Sounded innocent enough! Even some regulators bought it.

In its published financial statement, Nu Skin now describes itself as a "global direct selling company." And Melaleuca promoters will tell you they are not "network marketing" but "consumer direct marketing" – apparently trying to further distance themselves from appearing to be a pyramid scheme.

Read #2 and #10 below for the criteria I use, based on solid research, to make a clear distinction between an MLM which is merely a product-based pyramid scheme ("recruiting MLM") and a legitimate direct sales program. Keep in mind that it is generally not the names, the products, or the program's leaders that cause the problems, but the compensation plan itself. Psychologists discovered a century ago that you get the behavior you reward.
_________________

2. Almost all MLM's are “recruiting MLM's,” or product-based pyramid schemes.

Nearly all MLM programs can be considered “product-based pyramid schemes,” or “recruiting MLM's” – because they thrive on recruitment of new “distributors” – who are the actual customers. Here the term “recruiting MLM” – or “MLM” for short– refers to schemes that are characterized by multi-level endless chain recruitment of distributors as their primary customers.

Recruiting MLM does incorporate these “Five Red Flags” in their compensation plans:

A.) Recruiting of participants is unlimited in an endless chain of empowered and motivated recruiters recruiting recruiters.

B.) Advancement in a hierarchy of multiple levels of “distributors” is achieved by recruitment, rather than by appointment.

C.) Ongoing purchases (products, sales “tools,” etc.) by “distributors” are encouraged in order for them to be eligible for commissions and to advance in the business ("pay to play"). (Primerica accomplishes this by selling life insurance, mutual funds, etc which is a continuous investment (premiums paid; fees; etc.)!

D.) The company pays commissions and/or bonuses to more than five levels of “distributors.” (See Cody's comments in my other thread for this one)

E.) For each sale, company payout for upline participants equals or exceeds that for the person actually selling the product, creating an inadequate incentive to sell products directly and an excessive incentive to recruit.

WARNING: Where data has become available for MLM companies with these 5 red flags in their compensation plans (which is most MLM's), approximately 99.9% of participants lose money – after subtracting purchases from the company. You would be wise to avoid participating —regardless of how great the products, how many "respectable" people manage it or endorse it, and whether or not law enforcement has taken any action against them. Your odds of profiting from gambling in Las Vegas are far better.
_________________

3. A fair and profitable “retail MLM” would not look at all like the typical MLM.

At least two MLM's have been created which are both fair and legitimate. The emphasis is on direct sales (to customers who are not connected with the MLM) at retail prices, as is reflected in compensation plans in which:

(1) Only minimal purchases (e.g., no more than $100 per quarter) are required or “incentive-ized” to qualify for commissions or advancement,

(2) Override commissions are paid on no more than five levels in one's upline, each of whom would receive a very small override (1-5%) from the sales of front-line participants doing the selling, and

(3) Most of the commissions (over 50%) paid by the company are paid to distributors selling the product, I call such programs “retail MLM's.” Out of compensation plans of hundreds of MLM's I have reviewed, I have found only three programs that could qualify as retail MLM's, based on these criteria.

In short, retail MLM's that might be considered legitimate are acceptable only to the degree that they are NOT like typical MLM's, as characterized by the “5 Red Flags” above. (SORRY PRIMERICA, you are characterized by all five flags!)
________________
4. Properly understood, even leading MLM's are likely to be fraudulent and technically illegal.

Nearly all MLM's are inherently fraudulent endless chain recruitment schemes, promising substantial ongoing income, but leading to losses for the vast majority of participants. However, a few at the top profit hugely from product purchases of downline participants who stock up on products to “play the game.” As such, it could be considered theft by misrepresentation.

Investors in publicly traded MLM companies would be upset if they learned that in their MLM, there are few if any bone fide customers (see # 10) and that the MLM is dependent for its success on a network of distributors, 99.9% of whom lose money. (For Primerica, this is referring to the recruit and how they don't make money off of their warm market; recruits warm market, etc.)

These schemes are technically illegal in almost all jurisdictions because they violate statutes against pyramid schemes and deceptive sales practices – or simple fraud. Based on available data, the vast majority of MLM's are not income opportunities, but loss opportunities instead – and not legitimate businesses by any reasonable measure.

________________

5. MLM victims seldom file complaints – which contribute to the problem.

In law enforcement, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. So a primary reason for lack of enforcement against fraudulent MLM's is the lack of public outcry. Even victims suffering huge losses from MLM participation seldom file complaints with law enforcement, having been conditioned to blame themselves for their “failure.” They often avoid filing complaints because they fear consequences from or to their upline and/or downline, which are likely to be close friends or relatives. They may also fear the consequences of reporting fraud, when they themselves were at one time defrauding others, albeit unwittingly.

In fact, (with the exception of those profiting hugely at the top of their respective pyramids) those who have lost the most money are themselves most likely (out of a desire to recoup their own investment) to have defrauded others. So – as in any endless chain promotional scheme – they don't dare file a complaint against the company for fear they themselves may be prosecuted; i.e., self-incrimination.

In short, recruiting MLM's are scams laden with deception and self-deception – and ultimately fear and denial. Rare is the person who, like the child in the "Emperor's New Clothes," shouts for all to hear, "He's stark naked!" Those of us who have had personal experience with MLM, have unmasked the deceptions, and have mustered the courage to speak out, feel like that child.

So with few if any complaints, there is little pressure for regulators to act against MLM's. And when law enforcement agencies fail to act against a fraudulent MLM company, prospects assume it must be legal. And the game goes on.
_______________

6. Law enforcement officials generally lack both the will and the resources to protect consumers by enforcing laws applying to MLM's.

Except in rare instances, law enforcement at both federal and state levels is not likely to act on the innumerable violations of state and federal laws by MLM firms. These officials are often overwhelmed with cases, few of them as complicated as MLM. Agency officials often work long, hard hours; but they simply lack the resources to stand up to these schemes – which one important law enforcement official told me would take 20 times the resources as the typical case brought before them.

Also, few regulators understand the fraud inherent in complex MLM compensation plans that are obfuscated by their complexity. MLM companies merely put on the façade of complying with the “Amway rules,” which were initiated by the FTC to assure that some legitimate selling to non-distributors is taking place. These rules are typically ignored, since it would be impractical to enforce them. So law enforcement is not likely to act without a significant number of complaints filed by consumers – which seldom happens, especially with established MLM's.

State legislation is often weak and inconsistent over jurisdictions; since MLM's rapidly transcend jurisdictional boundaries; they quickly become unmanageable by local authorities. And the legislatures of some states are being lobbied by the Direct Selling Association (DSA, which has become an arm of the MLM industry) to pass "improved" legislation against pyramid schemes, but that would exempt product-based pyramid schemes from prosecution. And such legislation has been accepted in several states by unwitting legislators. In these states, the most damaging pyramid schemes of all (those with the highest loss rates) are exempt from prosecution, and the least damaging carry criminal penalties.

Federal agencies, particularly the FTC, find other classes of consumer abuse much easier to deal with and more publicly acceptable to prosecute. There are the occasional exceptions. A handful of MLM's (product-based pyramid schemes) have been stopped by authorities, but this is but a drop in the bucket, compared to the hundreds of MLM's which defraud new recruits every day – with new ones cropping up regularly to replace those which collapse.

Unfortunately, many of the larger MLM's are compensating for a decline in market acceptance in the U.S. by finding populations in Asia and other parts of the world who are highly vulnerable to their recruitment. In this respect, "recruiting MLM's" evolve into Ponzi schemes in order to survive and grow – recruiting in new countries or with new divisions to repay earlier investors in its "opportunity."

Officials from foreign countries are no savvier on this issue than are U.S. officials, and in fact U.S. trade representatives have yielded to lobbying pressure from the DSA (see below) to accept MLM (in the guise of "direct selling") overseas. As a result, millions of unsuspecting victims overseas are suffering billions of dollars in losses from these US-based companies. This type of plundering of countries whose good will we have been trying to cultivate is bound to have adverse consequences to our foreign relations down the road.

There is one bright spot in all of this, which helps to offset the inaction of law enforcement. Many participants and those close to them have seen enough of the harmful consequences of MLM participation that they have become immune to recruitment appeals. And some victims have developed web sites (ripoffreport.com) to warn others of the costs and harm done by these programs.
________________

7. MLM promoters are very clever at rationalizing MLM fraud, even to themselves.

I have seen MLM company officials come up with very clever rationalizations for what they do. Those with whom I have communicated have shown extreme denial of the harm done by their MLM's. They interact primarily with those at the top of recruiting pyramids and are oblivious to the extent of the damages to those lower in the hierarchy, the vast majority of who lose money and drop out, never to be heard from.

MLM promoters misrepresent because they MUST in order to survive and grow. Deception, including self-deception, becomes a way of life. If the truth were known about their abysmal odds of success, these programs would collapse like a house of cards. Who would join up if they knew that only one out of 1,000 participants earned a profit – after subtracting expenses, including sales helps and purchases from the company to qualify for commissions and for advancement in the scheme? In fact, the deceptions in MLM provide fodder for much humor and satire on MLM.

Informed law enforcement officials and concerned consumer activists have observed religious overtones and even cult-like behavior of the "true believers" in MLM's or product-based pyramid schemes. For example: Cult expert, founder of “Resource Center for Freedom of Mind,” counselor and author Steven Hassan looks at MLM/network marketing, such as Amway/Quixtar, as exhibiting many of the destructive traits of a cult. –

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/a/amway/index.htm.

Also, check out “Amway world wide dream builders and 'the things they will say' to profit from your dreams.” Potential Amway recruits will be inoculated against their program after reading “the things they will say.” – http://www.angelfire.com/or/amwaydreamers/index.html

(I DON'T RECALL GETTING THIS FEEL FROM THE PRIMERICA MEETINGS I ATTENDED, BUT OTHERS HAVE)

I have written on the impact of MLM on members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who seem particularly vulnerable to these schemes, due at least in part to very trusting relationships cultivated in their ranks. My book The Network Marketing Game: Gospel Perspectives in Multi-level Marketing addresses the ethics of MLM for Latter-day Saints, and in fact for all persons with a Judeo-Christian code of ethics.
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8. The villain in MLM abuse is the compensation & recruitment system – or “system fraud.”

It would be difficult to point to individuals as villains. The primary cause of MLM fraud is neither the leaders nor the products they sell, but a compensation and recruitment system which rewards multi-level endless chain recruitment of “distributors” as primary customers. Thus, it could be termed “system fraud.” The primary beneficiaries are the participants at the top of their respective pyramids and their sponsoring MLM companies.

MLM is the perfect con game. Many of the very persons who are out promoting the scheme are themselves victims – eventually running out of money and dropping out. They just absorb their losses – often substantial. And since they seldom complain to authorities, the game goes on!
________________

9. Though most are scams, MLM's can display remarkable endurance – often expanding Ponzi-style to foreign countries to keep the chain of recruitment going.

One would think that if almost all MLM's were merely disguised pyramid schemes or endless chain recruitment schemes, they would collapse on their own. However, recruiting MLM's are the most durable of all types of pyramid schemes. Complex compensation plans obfuscate the fraud so that only the most sophisticated of analysts can see through the maze of deceptions, making it possible for the programs to defraud on a massive scale without being recognized or stopped by authorities. (For more on MLM durability, see the aforementioned "5 Red Flags" report.

As explained in #6 above, when recruitment in a given area dries up, top recruiters in an MLM move on to other areas. Recruits in each area are told that the real opportunity lies in ___ (the next fresh market, often a 2nd world country). When the market world-wide peaks and begins to slide, the company opens a new product division and begins the same cycle all over again, as Amway has done with Quixtar and Nu Skin with its Big Planet and Pharmanex divisions (and currently what Primerica has done in Canada, Guam, Spain, and the UK). Thus, durable MLM”s evolve into Ponzi schemes, with earlier investors profiting from the investments of new recruits.

As endless chain recruitment schemes, powerful incentives are in place to continue MLM recruiting – even when the “opportunity” is proven unprofitable. And since so few complaints are received by enforcement agencies, this class of fraud continues virtually unchecked.
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10. MLM compensation plans reward recruiting over direct selling, and are therefore not legitimate direct sales programs, as they claim to be.

The Direct Selling Association (DSA), which is now dominated by the MLM industry and therefore promotes MLM's agenda, defines direct selling as “the sale of a consumer product or service, person-to-person, away from a fixed retail location.” On the bases of this definition, MLM's claim to be direct sales programs! But the definition fails to specify what legitimate direct sales programs are NOT.

Legitimate direct sales programs do not— (By the way, Primerica does ALL THESE THINGS)

(A) Recruit participants in an endless chain of recruiters recruiting recruiters,

(B) Specify advancement by recruitment, rather than by appointment,

(C) Require or use powerful incentives for ongoing purchases in order to qualify for commissions and to advance in the scheme, (Can we say, trip to Hawaii)

(D) Pay overrides on more levels of managers than are functionally justified (most corporations have found the entire country can be covered in four levels of sales managers), and

(E) Offer excessive incentive to recruit, combined with inadequate incentive to sell products to bona fide customers. In nearly all MLM's, there are few legitimate customers outside the network of “distributors.” (Or should we say your warm market)

As an example of how MLM's try to position themselves as direct sellers, in its published financial statement, Nu Skin now describes itself as a "global direct selling company." However, anyone who understands the above – and reads with an open mind my "REPORT OF VIOLATIONS" of the FTC's Order for Nu Skin to stop misrepresenting the earnings of its distributors – will see that Nu Skin is no more a direct selling company than a pig is a horse.
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Summary – the plain, unvarnished truth!

A “recruiting MLM” is a multi-level (or network) marketing system that depends upon recruitment of new distributors to replace a continuously collapsing base of new participants in a pyramid of recruits. As such, it constitutes an endless chain scheme of marketing by recruitment of distributors as primary customers. It is pseudo-business with no significant customer base and is dependent on a large network of distributors, approximately 99% of whom lose money from investing in products and services (including “success tools”) offered by the sponsoring MLM Company. The extremely high loss rate and aggregate losses make recruiting MLM's, or product-based pyramid schemes, the worst of all types of pyramid schemes.

Thus, recruiting MLM's are inherently flawed systems that promise ongoing residual income, but deliver very little except financial loss at the least, and loss of treasured relationships and values of honesty and integrity at the worst. They maintain themselves by continuous recruitment of new recruits, as investing participants give up or run out of funds and leave the system, seldom understanding what happened to them – even blaming themselves for their “failure.” Victims of MLM programs are seldom aware enough to file complaints with authorities, so law enforcement rarely takes action.

So – to be successful in a recruiting MLM, one must first be deceived, then maintain a high level of self-deception, and finally go about deceiving others. Some would label this "theft by deception," except that few of those doing the deceiving are aware that they are deceiving and defrauding those they are recruiting. They may even put on a display of being "successful" by buying expensive cars and homes and inviting others to be like them.

I am confident that any qualified person willing to examine the evidence with an open mind will agree with the above conclusions. For the serious researcher, reports expanding on this research are available from the author.

Ten years have gone into these reports. As a result of reading this information, you may be spared losses of hundreds or even thousands of dollars. Please show your appreciation by sharing this information with five people. Then ask each of them to share it with five more, and each of them with five more, etc. You can thereby participate in an endless chain of truth-telling.

© 2004 Jon M. Taylor, PhD

NOTE: Permission is given to copy this article if reproduced in full, including credits. Please refer to www.mlm-thetruth.com & www.skepdic.com (respectively) for a list of all the appropriate credits.

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My Conclusion – Broad & Curvy vs. Straight & Narrow

My title makes reference to a commonly used proverb. Primerica reps (and the individuals considering Primerica), you have two choices on how to approach this information. One, you can continue to go down the broad and curvy road that will eventually lead to destruction. Primerica is not a legitimate opportunity. You may even be making some money, but that won't last! Two, you can open your eyes and make that right turn down the straight and narrow road. That road leads you back to reality. You all are worth more than what Primerica, or any MLM scheme can offer you. It has been proven, do not negate those FACTS! Save yourself from the heartache of future lawsuits against you, because it's coming!

Example: Kenneth Titus and Redwood Trust. This MLM Company stole its name from an organization in California and told people that they could pay off your mortgage; however, you had to send them a $3,000-5,000 dollar registration fee.

(See http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/nyn/VW/Cases/RedwoodTrust/Civil_Forfeiture_Complaint.htm)

The only difference with Primerica is they use the guise of getting state licensed which makes you question the doubt of their legitimacy. Simply, they picked a product in which you have to be licensed in order to DISTRIBUTE! If you look on their website (primerica.com), they have a host of disclosures, disclaimers, etc. that help them to avoid lawsuits.

Still don't believe, well let's breakdown the theory of Primerica recruiting. First off, IT IS considered a pyramid, because it starts with you, the Primerica rep, and then you recruit people, who then recruit people, who then recruit people, etc. Therefore, you are theoretically the one at the top of your pyramid. Consider this: (considering every recruit will recruit 10 people)

If recruiting were started by a Primerica rep at the top, recruiting just 10 people beneath him; those ten would have 100 beneath them; those hundred would have 1,000 beneath them, etc.; the pyramid would involve everyone on earth in just ten layers of people with one Primerica con on top. The human pyramid would be about 60 feet high (based on a person being 6ft tall) and the bottom layer would have more than 4.5 billion people! This is the diagram in numbers:

1
10
100
1,000
10,000
100,000
1,000,000
10,000,000
100,000,000
1,000,000,000
10,000,000,000

Thus, in very short order, 10 recruiting 10 and so on would reach 10 billion, well in excess of the earth's population [which is 6,487,910,047 as of 17:19 GMT (EST +5) Dec. 28, 2005]. If the entire population of earth were only 5 billion and we all got involved in a pyramid scheme, the bottom layer would consist of about 90 percent of the planet, i.e., about 4.5 billion people. Thus, for 500 million people to be WINNERS, 4.5 billion must be LOSERS. Guess who sits at the top of the Primerica Pyramid, CITIGROUP! When Primerica reps make a sale, the business is referred back to CITIGROUP and the financial services they provide through a network of subsidiaries!

NOTE: Not adjusted for the fact that 75-85% of the world population is literate and the individuals in the World under the US legal working age.

This information has to be compelling, Primerica reps think different, they are REALLY BRAIN-DEAD!

This information dissects the legitimacy of all MLM businesses. Primerica is registered as a MLM; person-to-person business; with compensation being generated through recruiting practice, therefore, THE REPORT APPLIES! (See www.dsa.org)

THERE IS HOPE – This hope is given to us through ripoffreport.com. Keep submitting your comments against Primerica. Ripoffreport has enables us to compile a wealth of testimony, evidence, and research against Primerica. When the time is right, this information will aide in one of the largest class action lawsuits in the U.S.

I'm sure there is a rebuttal out there somewhere, Jim, I'm waiting for you. But before anyone refutes, know this:

YES, I HAVE had a personal experience with Primerica

YES, MY PURPOSE is to protect individuals that have inaccurate information about Primerica

NO, I DO NOT work in an industry that competes with Primerica products

NO, I WILL NOT stand by and watch another person get misguided by Primerica and its affiliates

Hi, I am a prospect of primerica from vancouver bc. like all prospects, i was convinced about the wonderful opportunities (aka owning your own business, financial independence, being in control of your time etc.) that primerica promised me. i also signed up for that 199 and was so ever eager to get my license. but then again, i remember a quote my grandfather once said, "if it's too easy it's a SCAM!" so i did my research and found out a couple of things:

* Primerica is a registered insurance company in bc!
* Primerica is regulated by FICOM (financial institutions commision of bc), Assuris, and Insurance Council of BC.
* The insurance training that primerica provides is recognized by the federal and local gov of canada and bc respectively.
* A family friend is an rvp and "seems" to be earning well.

from this point on primerica does sound legitimate. but then i ran into this website and to jay's report. jay does offer alot of interesting and valid points againts primerica. i wont mention them anymore because jay has done a wonderful job on that already.

and so here is my final verdict:

Primerica is a legal and legitimate insurance company (at least here in british comlumbia canada).

Primerica offers financial products that may not be the best in the market, however, they are recognized by bc law and institutions.

Furtheremore, primerica has legal agents (not financial planners) that sell primerica products.

Although primerica itself is seen as a legal and legitimate company, there are few concerns about primerica's methodologies and business ethics that concerns yours truly, mart albert. Such concerns involves:

* Insurance agents claiming to be financial advisors/planners, which does not correspond to the definition of Insurance agents as described by Isurance Council of bc.

* Primerica's focus on their MLM campain.

* Brainwashing and pushy tactics to recruit more prospects.

* the actual average income of every agent (about 5000 a year) as Jay skillfully pointed out.

* tax evasion tactics.

* Products that primerica offers are not the most competitive in the market. there are alot more companies that offer better rates than primerica.

* lack of knowledge and training of primerica's agents.

with careful consideration, and based on knowledge at hand, i believe the "opportunities" that primerica offers is not best suited for me.

primerica's products are legitimate and legal however their real motives, which is to concentrate on recruiting more prospects than actually providing sound financial advice, is not appealing to me, and i, therefore, decline doing business with them!

mart_albert
vancouver bc

Jay,

I almost fell for the scam. Fortunately I googled Primerica and found this site. After they tried to recruit me they tried to get me to cancel my insurance and go with them. They also wanted me to refinance my home to pay off my debt using the smart loan. Anyway, the real reason I am here today is to say this to all the Primerica reps. My best friend's daughter works for Citi so when I was doing my research on Primerica I decided to give her a call. I wanted to get her take on it since she works for Citi and Primerica reps love to throw out "we're affiliated with Citi and they wouldn't do anything wrong". Well for all of you Primerica reps-my friend's daughter that works for Citi told me to stay as far away from Primerica as I could. Run don't walk away from this so called opportunity. This statement came from her boss who is a regional bigwig. So there you have it in a nutshell. You Primericans want to keep throwing around your affiliation with Citi because you don't know what else to say and hope that you can hide behind them. Citi employees even know to stay away from you. That is really really really sad. Jay, again thanks for all of your information. I am so thankful I found this site before I fell victim to this.

Jay:

The rebuttal is absolutely and positively correct. I too was a member of Primerica and everything point out in your rebuttal applies. I too am no longer in the financial services arena and have nothing to gain by debunking Primerica (aka: PFS). My objective was and is to deter as many people as possible for falling into this trap. Thanks for doing the research for many ex-Posers who know this in their heart that the deception is systematic and deliberate. It's truly inspirational. Sometimes people like me wonder if we do any good because, shills like Cody and Jim (the latest) keep popping up, they pick and choose which rebuttal they can best respond to with brainwashed dogma. But when confronted with facts they run and hide rather than debate. They NEVER acknowledge or admit that they're wrong. Your rebuttal sums up every aspect of what is wrong with PFS and why PFS corporate won't fix it and neither will CitiGroup until it collapses. I've seen too many marriages and people destroyed by this insidiousness, so I will continue to help spread the word.

Regards,

I signed up with Primerica only to sell mortgages. I happen to have a vast background in the field and wanted a place to do them in my spare time. When I signed up I was told that I could do only mortgages and submitted my $199.00.

That didn't last long. Before I knew it I was told to hand over a list of my friends (told them I didn't have any) and relatives.

You know the story...just wanted to comment on the insurance sells. I took the class and passed the test...any monkey can!! I told my RVP I didn't feel I knew enough about insurance to sell it. She told me it didn't matter; just get the money and worry about the questions later.

I never ran across anyone that understood what they were selling. How pathetic is that and how much more for those suckered into buying it.

Last comment....mortgage training is a 15 minute film. Cough up $100.00 more and your a loan originator. Oh my gosh, how crazy is that? Trust me...no one in my former office had a clue about loans. Do you think that stopped them from selling them? No, Jay, it didn't.

In this thread you wrote: When the time is right, this information will aide in one of the largest class action lawsuits in the U.S.

How can I find out how to be part of this? My husband and I will never get back what we lost by getting involved with Primerica - it was way more than money. I want to help shut down this company which thrives on ruining the lives of all but a very small minority of those who get involved with them. People who have only lost the $199. "licensing fee" should thank God that is all they lost. The ones who worked hard at it but couldn't hold out by living in poverty until their business "busted wide open" lost much more - including their self-respect, and often their homes and savings.

I was approached while working at a local movie theater by a Primerica rep who gave me the whole talk about 'hey, you're a bright young man; you're friendly; why are you working here? Here's a business card, call me." blah blah blah; so, being open-minded as I am, I called the number on the card and went in for an 'introduction to primerica', where they gave me the basic rundown with their amazingly simplified flip-book, which in fact I would have much prefferred to browse at my leisure, but instead had to sit with my 'host' as she explained it to me as if I were some sort of clueless zombie. It all sounded like a good idea on the surface, of course - helping people stabilize themselves financially, forgeing a life-long bond with families and helping them to retirement, etc. - but the plain fact of it was that I neither had the interrest nor the personality required for the usual 'salesman' role; I'm a rather easy-going guy after all, and preffer to give advice instead of cramming snake oil down people's throats. At the end of all of the talking and after the painstakingly boring flipbook, not to mention all of the intense pressure they put on me to 'show I was comitted by a cash deposit', I had heard enough to know that I had neither the spare cash, time, or patience to invest in something I neither fully believed in nor was interrested in long-term. I came to find out afterwards that six of my friends had gotten hassled by Primerica also. Seeing all of the vague descriptions and pressure they put on me, this was a slow moving bullet to dodge, indeed; and, months later, I'm glad to see that my suspisions indeed had some substance.

I am in no way posting to justify Primerica but I can answer the bonus question.

First you start out as a recruit. You get 2 people recruited under you and do $1000 in business (life insurance or various loans (student, home, refinance, etc) This is your first promotion and you will make 50% of the same commission one of your recruits makes.

Your recruit makes a commission of $1000, you'll make $500.

Your second promotion comes when one of the people you recruit gets their first promotion by doing the same thing - recruiting 2 people and doing $1000 in business.

You will them make a commission of 25% of what your recruit's new recruit makes. (If I remember this correctly. I didn't ever make it to this level so I can't remember the exact figures but I know it's between 25 & 35%)

Definitely a pyramid. I wish I'd come across this site before this time last year and it would have saved me the $200 I paid towards joining up. Although I did get that $200 back (well sort of - I'll explain this further down in my story).

Before I start my story I want to add a note that if you have never attended any of the licensing classes (not even an hour of one class) you can get most of your initial $200 back, they charge a $40 or $60 processing fee so you'll either get $140 or $160 back. You just write a letter to the RVP (Regional Vice President) of the center where you were recruited, if you don't know their name, just address it to RVP at the address you went for your "interview" and say that you've changed your mind and never attended any classes and would like your $200 IBA fee returned to you. Make sure to give your name and return address in the letter itself and say who recruited you, etc. This way they have no way of saying "We didn't know who you were" or whatever. I do know that people do get this money back if they follow those steps.

OK, now for my Primerica experience....

Like many of you, I too was contacted out of the blue for a job I didn't apply for. They not only use Monster but also local newspaper sites where you might register for job searches. That's how they got my info.

So I attended their meeting and bought into the whole idea. My husband was deployed in Iraq and I had just moved to a new city. I wanted the extra income but more than that, I wanted to do something rewarding that could help others. So I gave them my $200 and the classes started right away. I did very well in the classes and studied like crazy then immediately went for my license. (Side note, not only do you pay the $200 for the classes but there's also a fee for getting fingerprinted and a fee for taking the state test, in Ohio it was $35 fingerprinting and $65 for the test) Once I passed my state licensing test both of the extra fees were reimbursed to me by Primerica. It did take a few weeks to get that reimbursement, I think 3 weeks.

This part of my story isn't typical for what happens to others which leaves an even more bitter taste in my mouth regarding my Primerica experience but it's my experience so I'm sharing it. I didn't receive any training prior to becoming licensed; therefore, I wasn't eligible for the reimbursement of my initial $200. See the way it works is, before you're licensed, your training comes from giving your upline a list of all of your friends and family members and their addresses and phone numbers and info about them. You and your upline go to see them and if they decide they need one of Citibank's many insurances or loans, your upline gets the commission on those products and they reimburse your $200 out of those commissions. The idea behind it is, you train in your warm market (those that know you best) because they will be the most likely to doubt your abilities and ask questions that you haven't learned to side step yet. Each friend and family member you see should give you 10-15 names, addresses and phone numbers of people they know and these are the people that you contact once you're licensed.

It was some time before I actually received any training whatsoever. I spent 15 hours a day at the office Monday thru Saturday for 3 weeks. In that time I went out with someone on my same upline team and we went to malls and stuff (to get nametag names) so that we could call those people later and say "I was in your store on such and such a day and you gave such excellent customer service that I would like to share a career opportunity with you". We would also go out and place "fishbowls" in restaurants and stuff. You know those bowls at restaurants that say "Drop in your business card for a chance to win a free meal"? This is how they get your contact info to call and try to recruit you. They figure that if you already have a job, you will have less problem coming up with the $200 they need from you up front. Most of my time was spent calling names from a sheet that my upline had already exhausted calling people that hadn't shown up for the "Opportunity Meeting" or had already blown her off, which was a complete waste of my time and efforts. But I was constantly told that if I worked the system, it would work for me. Meanwhile I'm driving 100 miles round trip just to get there everyday, I come home to clean up dog poop in the floor because I lived alone and no one was there to let them out and I was exhausted and had seen no return on my initial investment, let alone the $30,000 - $100,000 a year that the "Opportunity Meeting" dangled in front of me.

So now, since I had gotten licensed before I was trained, even though there was 3 weeks in between me giving my $200 and actually getting licensed so I SHOULD have received training, my upline finally (at my complete aggravated insistence)took me out for training in my warm market. My brother has a large family (his wife and 5 children) and he was the only one working and they had no life insurance so it was a definite need and they bought a policy. I received $192 in commission.

Even though I had given her a list of 10 people, we only saw 3 of the families, 2 of them were in the same house so it was actually only 2 presentations, and she didn't make sure that I got any referrals of other families from the people we saw. She basically had the attitude of "it's your family, you make sure they give them to you later" even though she had told me before we began that we go through the initial presentation and they are told that they have "homework" before we come back with their completed financial analysis and that to gather the names, etc for my referrals and that when we come back we ask for their "homework" before we read back their analysis and that the "homework" is payment in exchange for getting the free analysis.

So back to the office I go, spending 15 hours a day for 2 more months. I also went on a few road trips for seminars and stuff (and paid transportation, lodging and admittance fees for) that wasn't a requirement but they kept saying "your business will grow if you attend these meetings" or "You'll be hearing from people that have succeeded and they will show you the way to success". So I do everything that I'm told to do that will "ensure my success" and I was "coachable" (this is one of their favorite words). But still the only money I have seen is the $192 commission and the reimbursement of $100 for the fingerprinting and test fees.

I should note that in 1 day's time at the office, there were 3 meetings each day that we had to attend, in addition to the "Opportunity Meetings" to bring in new recruits. At these meeting, they rarely pushed going on and meeting with clients. It was always "Recruit Recruit RECRUIT!!!!!" I guess this is partially why I failed with Primerica. How can I recruit people stating they can make all of this money when I was going on 3 months and hadn't seen any myself? I had purchased Primerica literature and pamphlets to hand out at businesses (which I did do and ended up giving the remainder to a friend still with the company when I moved to Georgia. Although he's completely into Primerica so if he reads this, I doubt he'll still be my friend afterwards.) and spent a fortune on gas going back and forth and countless amounts of money setting myself up for the dangled success. The friend I mentioned earlier has been with Primerica for 2 years. No one there works harder than he does to achieve success and he's been evicted twice because he can't afford to pay his rent and bills and all he can afford to eat is ramen noodles and he's been promoted 3 times. He has made money there, don't get me wrong. He'll have a couple good months then nothing for 6 or 7 months and he never gets his finances caught up.

Shortly before I gave up on the opportunity Primerica dangled before me, my brother (the only commission I had seen of $192) fell on hard times and had to cancel his policy. So all of a sudden I get a notice in the mail that says I owe Primerica $238. I had only received $192 but they penalize you in 3 different ways with fees for chargebacks. So not only did I not get reimbursed for my initial $200 (but I did make $192 leaving me only $8 and lots of time and gas money, other expenses, etc in the hole) but now they want more than they gave me in the first place. I had until this past November to pay the $238 or my appointment with Primerica would be terminated. So now it is terminated and they can try to scrape that $238 away from what the worms and bugs don't eat once I'm dead and buried because that's the only way they're getting it.

I'm sure if I'd kept at it, spending 15 hours a day at the office for another 6 months or so I'd have made another $192 or so. It's completely laughable. I'm hoping the mileage and equipment and meals out add up to enough for me to get some of it back on my taxes since I was considered independently employed but who knows. Luckily, I didn't really need the money and the time away from home helped the year that my husband was deployed go by a little faster. And if my story helps one person not give Primerica $200, it will be worth everything I was out.

It is my honest opinion that the only clients Primerica people see are when they are first training and then when they are training recruits. There are a few out there who genuinely see clients and try to help them out of debt, like my friend does. I don't see how you're expected to see clients when you spend 15 hours a day at the office doing recruiting and attending meetings that preach recruiting.

It's really sad that you are also encouraged to push people out of your life that are negative (meaning the people that aren't saying "Primerica" or "Citibank" every other word or that question how much money you are making, since you aren't making any or the ones that haven't bought in to the Primerica way of life.) I know people from the Columbus, OH office on Busch Blvd (where I was recruited) that have stopped speaking to friends and family because they either wouldn't agree to the presentation or because they said Primerica was a ripoff/scam/pyramid scheme. They really do try to brainwash you to live and breathe Primerica. Don't get sucked in.

I don't know every law suit that is out there when it comes to Primerica, but I do know this. I had no job and was broke because of a custody battle. I needed something to come along to help me get through this hard time. I have only been doing this for one month now and I made a little bit under $5,000. Yes you do have to get out there and sell the services. I told six different people this month to keep thier existing life insurance, and that there was nothing else that I could really help them with. Primerica does not promise that we can help every person. Yes, you will find those dishonest people. Okay, so primerica says that there are that many people liscensed with them. There are a lot of people that fell off and are currently not doing anything.

My best friend showed me his check stub for last month and it was about $9,000. Is everyone going to do this? No. Are Primerica Reps going to always have the right answers? Sometimes, I hate to say this, they will not be able to answer with the right answers. I know that when I don't know the answer, I will write it down and get back to them. I do not like to just say something to make them happy.

I show no shame in telling people that I am unable to help them. I may not have gone to college to do this, but I have been trained on our products. It does not make since to go pay $875, before taxes, for a FNA just for my bank to tell me that there is nothing that they can do. I am now out 875 plus tax, and no answer on how to get ahead.

Not everybody will follow the plan if we do find something. I set two people up to get out of dept from thier house in 17 years instead of the 26 that they have left. You say that we are being dishonest. Again, we do have some that are out there that are that way. I know of two people that can no longer work for the company because of their practices.

Our company makes mistakes. It is a matter of fact that humans make mistakes. God said that we would make those mistakes. All big companies go through thier lawsuits. All of them do. Most of them go through a lot more than we do.

I know that I make mistakes. I will make a lot of them. I will also learn from them as well.

This is part of what gave me a weird feeling about Primerica and had me paying close attention and looking for signs that this company was not legit.

It's apparent that Primerica will take in any rep as long as they can fill the only requirement that each and every Primerica office has... you must have the $199 for the IBA. Yes, it's true that it does pay for the licensing course required by the state. Yes, those cost a lot more than $199 if you try to enroll in one privately. I'll concede those points as being factual.

Does it matter that 6th graders speak and write better and can formulate more intelligent thoughts than any of the current employees I've seen posting on here in my last few hours of reading? Not as long as they have $199.

If you can't read, write, spell or do simple math higher than a 6th grade level, why would anyone trust you with their finances or anything. In the office I was out of, I wouldn't hire 90% of them to walk my dog, let alone advise me on my finances or life insurance needs.

Unfortunately the person that approached me and the people that conducted the presentation were seemingly normal and intelligent people. Otherwise I'd have never handed over my $199. I will never forget the shock and dismay I felt in the first employee meeting. I had already been signed with the company for over a week and it just happened to take place before one of the licensing classes so I attended the meeting. I felt as if I had been in the middle of an alien invasion. All of a sudden some of the strangest people I had ever seen in my life were rah rahing and dancing around and chanting Primerica stuff. If I hadn't already invested my $199, I'd have run screaming from the building.

It's sad that a lot of the people doing the recruiting bring in people that they have to know don't have the intelligence to pass the state test, which is sad since the Ohio test is relatively easy. They have one guy in the office now that has taken the test 3 times and still only got a 42 (70 or higher is required to pass) so now he has to wait 6 months to take it again. I knew within 2 minutes that he didn't have the education or intelligence to pass any kind of test.

The point I'm trying to make is this...

If you're going to post on here making an argument for a company you're trying to defend saying it isn't a scam or rip off or pyramid scheme (regardless of how incorrect you are) please type your response in MS Word first and use the spell check. This way it isn't as obvious that Primerica will hire anyone that has $199.

I did not join, but I have nothing against Primerica. To those who did join, I congratulate you on your success. To those who joined and did not find success, I thank you for your honesty here in this forum.

I don't know why Jay decided to post all of this, but many are finding it very helpful. I can't help wondering if he hates this company or wants to help other people. It could be both.

The thing to remember people is this: nobody forces you to join Primerica. You are approached and asked to join. Primerica is about making money. EVERYBODY wants to make money. I think Primerica makes money off of other people who want to make money. I mean it's clear all these people are going to join, pay the fee, and quit. Did Primerica lose anything? No. Are some people going to stay and make some money for themselves, yes, but Primerica is still going to get more $$ because of that person's sales. If you joined and failed, you can't blame PRIMERICA. Blame yourself. It's like my father used to tell me when I was 16, "you got to go out and look for a job, a job isn't going to land on your lap."

Why should you not be mad at Primerica? Well, who made the decision to pay some money to join a job? I mean you really have to be a go getter to be successful in that company. If you were approached by someone who got you to join, and thought that you wouldn't have to do the same thing... then what WERE you thinking? You have to be willing to go out and talk to people on your own time. I, for one, was not willing to do that; so the choice not to join was simple.

A little common sense on my part worked as well. If these guys are sooooooo good, then why do they have to go out and sell people insurance? Wouldn't people come to them instead? The same way somebody walks into State Farm Insurance or calls Geico?
Also, if this company really wants to train me, why do I have to pay for it? A company that not only cares about it's own growth, but also the growth of their employees will pay their employees for training.

WOW. That's all I can say. After it has been proven that Primerica is a Multi-Level-Marketing scheme and you all still believe in Primerica...WOW.

This also proves to me that the ones who are still praising Primerica DID NOT read the report in its entirety!

PLEASE READ "The Unvarnished Truth about Primerica..." which is in this thread!

To Rich, I don't hate anything, hate is such a strong word, but I believe in and LOVE the truth. Did, I lose anything from joining Primerica, NO; because I was smart and got out when I realized that this was NOT A LEGITIMATE COMPANY. Primerica is NOT telling the truth about their business opportunity, IT'S NOT just a few offices, it's their corporate culture.

They don't select the misinformed, uneducated, lower-income people because they are trying to help them out (whether as a client or recruit). They do it, because it's easier to sell them a dream. Primerica couldn't sell me that dream because I don't fit that profile.

For the young man that said he made "$5,000 in his first month". Again, a dose of Primerica lies, because you don't even have your insurance licenses in your first month. If you made money without a license to do so, know YOUR actions are ILLEGAL!

AGAIN, PRIMERICA IS A MLM BUSINESS--INCOME IS GENERATED THROUGH MLM ACTIVITY!

"nobody forces you to join Primerica." People join Crimerica mostly in the expectations of making a lot of money which the odds against that happening over 1,000 to 1 (the odds are much higher when you factor in business expenses).

"If you joined and failed, you can't blame PRIMERICA. Blame yourself." I still blame Crimerica for the fraud and deception perpetrated on the public under the puppet strings of the fat cats. Would you call 100,000 people who leave Crimerica each year failures? I would call them smart people who realize what Crimerica and Citigroup are corrupt companies and there's no future for them.

I think it's a great idea to distribute pamphlets at the recruitment meetings explaining what you can really expect from Crimerica (e.g. the average agent makes less than $6,000 a year) along with what questions should be asked so that the newbies can understand what they should really expect.

FYI for Jay,

I'm going to try to clarify the way PFS interprets earned income and advance income, since Cody failed to reply in this thread above (his RVP probably got to him).

If a person in PFS is at a 30% contract (i.e. a rep) and he writes a 50/month Life Insurance application, instead of picking up an annual check for $600.00 PFS will “advance” 75% of the annual premium. Therefore at 25% it works out as follows:
(600.00 x .30 x.75) = $135 advance check paid to the agent. PFS holds the other 25% of the annual premium and pays it out in the 10th, 11 and 12th months in the form of an “earned” check. PFS also holds some other portion back as well but it's been awhile so it escapes me. There are other residuals paid out, perhaps another former agent can correct me, or an active one. I guess PFS has made their money back at this point. Therefore the agent is owed an earned check calculated as follows: (.30 x 600 x .25) = $45. In which he would get a check in the 10th, 11th and 12th months of $15 each. PFS may hold another portion of this and put it in the agent's “earned” account. Of course if the client changes his mind (possibly as a result of this website) the agent would receive chargeback of -$135. So the next application they write must wipe out this negative balance in order for the agent to make any money. If the agent writes another 50/month application then his chargeback balance is zero and so is his paycheck. I may not be 100% accurate but I believe I'm in the ball park. The earned checks are for policies that have been in force for at least a year.

Regards,

You paid $875 to a bank for an FNA??????? Who are you trying to kid? Give us the name and phone number of this bank. I'd like to double-check your story. I've sold securities in banks. Banks will go out of thier way to not offend a banking client over a securities and/or life insurance sale. I can tell you right now NO bank is going to charge someone $875 for a service every other bank in the world not only gives away, but practically begs you to use.

Sheesh, if you're going to lie at least make it slightly plausible.

First of all I would like to thank you Jay for this insightful information. You have saved me $199.

I normally don't do the whole online message board thing but I found this one worthwile.

Here's my experience with Primerica:
I am a former Marine with the experience of someone twice my age in the fields of electronics and security. I got out of the Marine Corps 6 months ago and have been unable to find a suitable job.

I enrolled in college and my career counselor had contacts with Primerica. Since Primerica rented rooms for conference in the school, my career counselor figured they would be willing to hire me as a security guard. He made the call and Primerica contacted me about a "job opportunity" I figured I was a shoe-in for the job of security guard so I went for an interview the next day.

This was no ordinary interview. As soon as I got there, I saw that most applicants looked my age (24) or younger. Some looked young enough to be in high school and dressed in unkempt shirts and trousers. It turned out that some of them were employees. My confidence level went up immediately. They called us into the conference room and literally told us how they were affiliated wit Citigroup and the greatest financial institution in the world for about an hour. They also stated that they needed new financial consultants with no experience in the field to make from 30-50k annually to start and work their way up to owning a branch and make 50-100k. After the brainwashing stopped they made us fill out a basic application which included not the usual 2 or 3 spots for character references but 6. I figured it was going to be a hard background check since the government only requires 2 for a secret clearance. They dismissed us and required us make an appointment for an interview. This was beguiling because the reason I went there was for an interview.

I came back for my interview, which, at the time, seemed like it was for a very distinguished position. The man interviewing me was knitpicking my resume like a man posessed. He instantly started the brainwashing process again. At that point I started drifting off and pretended to listen (One can only listen to somebody else's praises for so long.) I started looking objects on the wall and noticed several awards for recruiting. I thought to myself "why would a business like this get awards for recruiting". Then came the $199 I had to give them on the spot. I knew I would have to pay it but nobody said immediately. I told the "RVP" that "I will get the money later that day and bring it in tomorrow".

That was yesterday. He will get his later today. With my own brand of psychological retribution. I will humiliate him and his company untill he wishes he had never called myself or anyone else.

On a different note, wouldn't the complete Primerica Ripoff Report threads look good in all of the surrounding area of the Crimerica offices.

Encourage fair hiring practices, spread the word! Your loved ones could be next.

Good Luck to you, Jay

- Sal

P.S. Fight fire with fire. Send this thread to 5 acquaintances and have them do the same.

I am currently an agent with Primerica so I guess you can say I'm biased, but all the same I think it's ridiculous that people get on here and bash anything that has made them mad. I can find things on the internet bashng everything from Wal-Mart to Jesus. I'm not really going to say much against or for Primerica since I am new to the company and still learning myself but when I decided to come on board I did a lot of reliable research in the library, through the Better Business Bureau, and the NASD, etc. These stuff that you see on these internet sites is just people that are mad because the business didn't work for them and they quit, Primerica probably took business from them in some way so on and so forth not reputable federally regulated sources so I advise anyone that is thinking of getting involved with the company to do some substantial research. As far as Primerica brainwashing people, I laugh at that because in the 3 months that I have been involved with the company I have gotten nothing but motivation, support, friendships, self improvement, and if they are brainwashing me to be a better person for myself and my family then I want more of it. As far as the $199 and so on and so forth, that is for the STATE in which you live to obtain a LICENSE. So if that makes you upset contact the government and see if they will work with you. Not only that but depending on what state you're in, like mine is $502 and I paid $199, Primerica paid the rest. It goes to the STATE,not PRIMERICA. So get over it.

all you so called experts that know more about a company you never investigated or looked at is a joke...

Primerica does not have Employees or Salaries..

If someone at primerica says differently, contact the office RVP immediately..

the rest of you, look at your own companies. pyramids are everywhere, even in the traditional corporate environments. Unless you dont have a manager or managers, who reports to a director or directors, who reports to CEO..

"...pyramids are everywhere...." But Keith, you just said that Crimerica doesn't have employees meaning that all you can look forward to is a commission check assuming you're licensed. It appears that most people still derive their income from a salary (even some from salary and commission or just commission at other companies).

What makes Crimerica special is that the overwheming lion's share of money that's made goes to the fat cats which is why I call it a "pyramid-schemed" type of company. When you work at a salary-based type of job, you're guaranteed a certain level of income depending on how many hours you work and not depending on what others do - that's not a pyramid. Crimerica, on the other hand, the real money is derived from your bloated downline. Where's the downline at a McDonald's or IBM or Vonage (just to mention, the average agent of 100,000+ at Crimerica makes less than $6,000 a year which anyone at McDonalds can top).

Now Keith I have a message for you which you can pass around at the interview meetings. It goes like this:

"Victim of a consumer Rip-off? Want justice? Rip-off Report™ is a worldwide consumer reporting Website & Publication, by consumers, for consumers, to file & document complaints about companies or individuals who ripoff consumers."

You have no business being here doing shilling for
Crimerica as you're not helping victims. Apparently you have no life and you must find those Crimerica meetings boring so I suggest you hand out pamphlets at the next meeting giving the
real truth.

It seems as if Primerica reps are always talking about "someone needs to do some research" yet they fail to do accurate, objective research themselves. Looking at Primerica's website does not constitute research. The fact that Primerica is registered with the NASD means absolutely nothing to their legitimacy. N.A.S.D. stands for National Association of Securities Dealers, nothing else.

PRIMERICA REPS READ CLOSELY, YOU MAY FINALLY LEARN SOMETHING,

"YOU DISTRIBUTE FINANCIAL PRODUCTS REGULATED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT”

That's the ONLY reason why Primerica is registered with NASD. When you search Primerica (which is listed as PFS Distributors and PFS Investments) it states that fact! Primerica is also registered with dsa.org (direct selling association for multi-level-marketing schemes). They use the power of disclosures and disclaimers to keep themselves out of legal trouble. That's the reason Primerica targets low to middle income people for its clientele and recruiting. These people don't have access to legal counsel like an individual in the upper-income bracket. Primerica's clients and recruits are less likely to pursue legal forms of restitution and they know that!

In fact, you all are the "Blind Leading the Blind"! Adonia and Keith; you can tell no one in here anything about research when you come in my thread having typed ONE PARAGRAPH containing NO RESEARCH! Not only that; in what way is someone bashing a company because they're exposing their negative experience or loss as a direct result of their involvement with a particular company? Are you serious?! Another fact, classes to obtain your insurance licenses is one of the cheapest sales licensing programs in Ohio (and I'm sure elsewhere).

Aside from that, do you even realize that you don't take an "outside" course for your insurance licensing? All courses are taken THROUGH PRIMERICA at another Primerica office. Why, because that money goes to Primerica corporate. The $199.00 is for those classes and some pseudo mortgage class. It is not even effective! For instance; Cody has 58 people working in his down line and only 7 of them are life licensed. That's a 12% pass rate! The average pass rate for the course taken “outside” of Primerica is roughly 70% or more. Go ahead; blame it on the individual instead of looking at how flawed the system is! You two are too new to judge anyway!

As the saying goes, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!

After all of that, YOU STILL have to pay for your fingerprinting (65.00); pay to take the test (65.00 or more); and that 199.00 you Primericans brag about does not cover your series 63 licensing for mutual funds, which in Ohio will be another 500.00 or more dollars. Do you all pay attention? Are you really that gullible? If so, I am selling rights to the Statue of Liberty for 199.00. You tell a friend and they buy rights, then you get part of their 199.00.

Keith, I don't know why you even chose to submit anything! Who ever said Primerica had employees? We did say Primerica is a multi-level-marketing scheme and stand behind that comment! Also Keith, you've proven to me you haven't read a sentence worth of research (like any Primerica rep ever does). All you write in response to a multitude of pages of VALID research is a broken up paragraph saying how much of a joke it (the research) is. That REALLY shows your level of incompetence and your inability to formulate an argument. Even further Keith; you don't even understand what a pyramid (in the business sense) is.

A pyramid and a hierarchy in the business world are two different things. A corporate hierarchy is comprised of three levels, Corporate, Managerial, and Operational. A manager's salary IS NOT contingent upon his employee's work efforts. A manager will get paid whether or not an employee is producing. However, their job is to utilize knowledge and talent management principles to put employees in the appropriate areas based on their skills, education, and experience. If an employee is inefficient, they are fired or asked to resign and that ALSO DOES NOT affect the Manager's salary. That, my friend is a hierarchy, not a pyramid like Primerica is using.

Pyramids (illegal or otherwise) are set up in a way that the person's cash flow [theoretically at the top of the pyramid] is contingent upon the efforts of their down line. There are no down lines in corporate America Keith. If your down line isn't making money you're not making money. If your down line is not recruiting, then your business is not expanding, therefore, you're not making money. Why, because there are no clients outside of the system. Primerica does not seek clients outside of their recruiting system; therefore, they are considered an illegal pyramid. They don't market their services, they market their recruiting. American Family, Nationwide, etc., for example, market their services. If you want a job with them then you apply and Human Resources handle the rest.

You're asked to join Primerica (in some cases begged and harassed). When you're recruited by Primerica you have to give them six or more names of individuals that will allow your up line to give them a free presentation. They call this “training”, it's not. They're presenting a sales pitch to your family off the strength of your reputation, not Primerica. It works because your family and friends trust YOU not Primerica. They are more likely to allow the sale, because they want to help YOU not Primerica.

If you knew anything about organizational behavior, most companies have reverted to TQM (Total Quality Management). TQM is a reverse hierarchy where supervisors and managers focus on supporting employees to do their job better and in a more suitable environment. The idea is that your employees are also your customers!

You know what; I'm tired of Primerica and its ignorant reps! If anyone is willing, I will be filing a complaint with the N.A.S.D (that Primerica reps brag they are registered with) in an effort to get Primerica kicked out of the N.A.S.D. and I would like to use your stories.

Enough said…

Keith and Adonia probably won't be back in this thread. Just like Cody and Jim they drop their bullsh_t and leave!

Speaking of Cody and Jim…

Cody and Jim fit the profile of what Jon Taylor expressed in his report on MLMs perfectly. I speak of these individuals because they were, at one point, adamant in defending Primerica. You can see comments they've submitted in several threads concerning Primerica. A question to everyone: Do you think, they (Primerica reps) mentioned this website to their RVPs? I would have to say, “NO”! I think they would be uncomfortable addressing this situation with their RVP. This website has created some doubt in Primerica for them and they are afraid their RVP will scold them for feeling that way.

It has been a little over a month since Cody responded to this thread. That can be for two reasons, he either refuses to return to this website because he thinks he's done his job of defending Primerica, or he's realized that his comments had no merit and he got caught in a lot of lies and misrepresentations. This surprises me because at the end of his statement towards me, his suggested he was “looking forward to our next conversation.”

It's been a little over 3 weeks for Jim whose comments everyone seems to agree are unwarranted, uneducated, etc. (which is still surprising for a teacher)

Cody's Situation-

What's sad about Cody's situation is he's a motivated young man that should have stayed in school. I doubt he was pursuing a Master's Degree (unless he's a child prodigy) because he claims he's only 19 (age of the majority of 2nd year undergrad students). Regardless of that, a degree in software engineering would have landed him a job making in excess of 50K in his first year after college (based on RITs projected salary information, see www.rit.edu). With his ambition, I'm sure Cody could make it to the top of any decent company fast.

For arguments sake, he did make it to the “Division Leader” level in Primerica, although he doesn't realize that “Division Leader” is nothing but a title and he has not even cleared 30K yet! If Cody takes a good look at the income he is making ($27,745) and the amount of premiums he submitted ($117,585), he getting cheated in some way, shape, form, or fashion. Based on commission rates he provided, he should be getting paid 60% commissions off his life insurance premiums (based on the Division Leader rate). That equates to $70,551, however, he proved that he's only pulling in $27,745. That's again 23.6% of his sales; not even what the commission a rep (25%) should be making.

This comes from A PROBLEMATIC GLITCH in the Primerica compensation system (see #10 in Jon Taylor's report). The difference in income he received is 60.6%. If that difference comes from his up line(s) overriding his income then Primerica definitely fits the profile Jon Taylor described. If it doesn't; then where does it come from?

With the explanation of the difference between “earns” and “advances” (Thanks Anthony), over 75% of the income he received was an “advance”. I noticed he was, in fact, sent a lot of checks for amounts of $10-60 dollars; all of them were in the “earns” category. I pray his clients don't cancel their insurance, because that would be a large chargeback check Cody would have to write considering Primerica is his only form of income. Following Cody's commission rates and Anthony's breakdown, Cody was supposed to get $52,913.25 in an advance and $17,637.75 in actual earnings. UNFORTUNATELY (for Cody) HE DIDN'T!

Jim's Situation-

I can not picture Jim being a teacher, if so, what subject? His comments lack the professionalism and content I would assume a teacher's writing skills would present. He doesn't even attempt to make a justified argument; he just wants to be on record that he spoke up for Primerica. I personally don't think he is a teacher, but I think he said he was because my initial report was set up as though I was a teacher handing out a test. He probably doesn't think I caught that, but I did.

I can't say a lot about Jim, except for the fact that he is not the brightest light in the room. Honestly, I have not seen anyone that has come into this thread (or others) from Primerica that, beyond their loquacious nature, had any real level of intelligence. To the intellectually deprived, Primerica reps seem intelligent due to that talkative nature. They will accomplish one of two things: One, annoy you; or two, get your business!

Mostly all they really have to say when you confront them about their income is the common excuse, “I'm not making the big bucks yet, but my up line is!”

Jim:

“Questiong 1: May I see you post your current income to everyone on line? No? That is a stupid request. If you want to check it out, the company posts income for its leaders every month… Although I'm not there yet, my uplines are. And, if I follow their lead and do what they did, I'll be there too!”

Cody:
“I am months away from being a Regional Vice President, making far more than I would have with a Master's Degree in Software Engineering from the Rochester Institute of Technology… And, by company guidelines, could have been a VP months ago.”

[He's speculating, he's already two steps away from RVP and doesn't make over $30K]

Enough here, I don't need to go any further. My point for submitting this is that if you read Cody and Jim's comments, even reread other comments made by other Primerica reps, analyze those comments using Jon Taylor's report, you will find that these people can not see past the dream that Primerica will make them rich.

Think about this; Primerica is saying that the ‘Average Joe/Jane' with no education, experience, etc. can own and run a financial services business and do extremely well at it. Basically saying, “You're in the right place at the right time” and “Don't let this opportunity pass you by”. Like I said before, I am in the process of filing a complaint, I WILL PROVE that Primerica, in its unethical recruiting practices and its bad advice on mortgage (predatory lending—coercing consumers to accept high interest on loan under the guise of paying a mortgage off faster), has violated the rules and regulations that govern them (via NASD).

My brother's friend was in this ridiculous scheme. He paraded around like he was a financial advisor. In reality he was an aquarium cleaner at the zoo. That is what Primerica is comprimised of, people who are in low level jobs, who come to a meeting once a week and think they are financial advisors. I actually went to one of those rah rah meetings. None of these people have a financial background, they just like the title, this ridiculous scheme tries to deem them. The RVP who did te presentation had a very bad perm and a dirty suit but these leeches cheered after every sentence he said. They steal $200 from people who work really hard for that money, and if they pass the life insurance test, they consider themselves financial experts. The life insurance license is an easy 80 question test where you only need a 70% to pass. These RVP's are people who have sold like 5 plans and recruited X amount of people, and they call those people RVP's. I wish this company would just fold and stop taking advantage of the uneducated to make them feel important, because that is all Primerica is. And anytime these "reps" are called out on thier income they run, because at most they make $4000 yearly if thier good. I can't see why I would be insurance from an aquarium cleaner, when i can buy it from a real professional, that sells it for a living? These people come fom all walks of life, I am sure several have waited on me at Mcdonalds, but anyway they are what they are.

These people called me today for a new office in chillicothe, Ohio.. Thank you for all of your info on Casto's co.

Let me start with a bit of a disclaimer. I am not a representative of Primerica. I was contacted by a rep from Primerica about 4 weeks ago and since then have been going to their meetings and working with the person who *may* become my upline if I decide to become part of the organization. I have also spent considerable time looking up information, both positive and negative, about Primerica. Since I've yet to obtain enough information to make a decision, Primerica has yet to recieve my one hundred ninety nine dollars. Enough on that.
I've read many of the threads on this site as well as all of the information available on Primericabuster.com so I'm not ignorant of the issues presented by all of the Primerica detractors out there.

I've noticed a few flaws in some of the statements made here, just as there were some on Ken Youngs site, so I felt compelled to add a few comments of my own.

Since Ken has locked all of the threads on his message board, sadly I was unable to respond to any of his comments. One thing in particular I would like to say about Mr. Young is that I'm saddened that someone his age (look at his picture) who claims to be such a distinguished member of the insurance industry can't refrain from stooping to name calling. Those of you who have been to his site know what I'm referring to. It seems that in his opinion, anyone who works for Primerica is a "dork". Impressive Mr. Young. When my children were 6 years old they also liked to call people "dorks" but they grew out of it quickly. It's surprising to learn that without knowing all of those 100,000+ people that he is apparently omniscient and therefore able to judge every one of them and call them "dorks".

Fortunately, most of the posters on this board seem to have a bit more maturity.
It's very likely that I'll bounce around a bit in referring to some of the things posted on this thread but I'll try to make sense of it for you.

Not being an employee of Primerica as of yet, I'm obviously unable to respond to everything in Jay's "Primerica test". Luckily for me I'm not dumb enough to try to argue points on which I have insufficient knowledge or training. However, you will find that it doesn't take a genius to make mistakes and provide deceptive information as Jay does in a few cases.

Once again, please keep in mind I don't work for, and may never work for Primerica. I am by nature a bit of an instigator and so these threads are fun for me.
Let me start by quoting a section of your "test" for you.
"Economic Analysis:
The efficient market hypothesis suggests (and I paraphrase) that prices and/or returns in a particular market (more commonly the financial market) already reflect all known information and therefore display the collective benefits of all current investors and future prospects. This means (literally) that it is impossible to outperform a market by using information the market already knows, except through luck and/or inside trading information—whether you enter the market now or in the future.

[Source: the writings of Eugene Fama, "The Foundations of Finance" and "The Theory of Finance". Eugene Fama was a 2003 candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize in Finance/Economics]

Result:
Using this hypothesis, this would suggest that Primerica will always have 5% of the reps in their company making over $50-100K and the remainder making significantly less. Acknowledging insider trading is illegal, this would further suggest that the only way to excel to the top 5%, you have to be lucky or do something illegal and/or unethical.

Question:
Applying this well-known economic hypothesis to Primerica's system, how does a Primerica representative (current and future) outperform current members of the financial industry, as well as, seasoned members of Primerica using the same or similar information?

Argumentative analysis:
It has been proven that Primerica has a ‘boilerplate' system, IT WILL NEVER CHANGE. Therefore, current and future reps are [and will be] exposed to the same system (information) meaning the returns in this specific market (system) are already exhausted. This guarantees the company will always consist of, for lack of better words, 5% winners and 95% losers (based on the current number of people making at or in excess of $50-100K/year divided by the total amount of representatives).

The efficient markets theory (in relationship to the hypothesis) further suggests market factors will naturally adjust to cause the system to remain consistent. In an effort to circumvent Primerica's system, one would have to operate illegally and unethically.

You can also apply this theory to the financial products Primerica is selling and claiming greater returns. An analysis of Primerica's financial products as it relates to the efficient markets hypothesis (and theory) will be completed once a Primerica representative submits their answers to the test."
After a Primerica rep attempted to respond to your thread one of your comments was:
"Also, do you understand what the word “indirectly” means? Based on your response, you don't because it simply means, for example, one may do something in a round about way, in some way, circuitously!"
Let's have some fun and apply your own logic to your own comments shall we? First off, in a follow up response to someone you said this:
"INTRO: "READING IS FUNDAMENTAL” Take your time and read, please! If you can't pronounce words use your vowels. Also, if you don't know what something means, grab a dictionary, encyclopedia, or go on the internet!"
You might consider taking your own advice before you click on that cute little submit button down there.
hy·poth·e·sis

( P ) Pronunciation Key (h-pth-ss)
n. pl. hy·poth·e·ses (-sz)
1. A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation.
2. Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption.
The antecedent of a conditional statement.

You use the word hypothesis five times in that statement (unless I miscounted). Here's another one I like:
the·o·ry

( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-r, thîr)
n. pl. the·o·ries
1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.
3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.
4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory.
5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.
6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.
Let's see what we have here. Notice that none of the definitions for theory say anything about it being a fact. As you can see in the last definition, a theory is an assumption; a guess.

So, in what may or may not have been an attempt to sound intellectual, you based that portion of your argument on hypotheses and theories. It's quite possible that in the history of mankind there have been more unsuccessful theories than successful ones.

That portion of your original posting just became invalid, sorry.
You insist on anyone responding to your question should be prepared to submit documentation. The rules should apply equally to all parties wouldn't you say? Let's try this one:

"-Question 4-
Explain the concept of ‘sustained competitive advantage'. Primerica and its representatives indirectly claim to hold such an advantage, so they should have a grasp on its underlying principle."
I like how you sidestep the need to show any factual proof of your claim by stating that reps "indirectly claim" to have an advantage. Either show some factual proof or admit that this is nothing more than your personal opinion.
My apologies for bouncing around a bit as opposed to going in order, I'm jumping back and forth between two browser windows, reading the thread in one and responding in the other while constantly being attacked by my seventeen month old grandson so bear with me :)

"-Question 5-
List why you feel an individual with no educational or career background in finance can give an expert, informed, subjective financial analysis and why you feel an individual who HAS that background and experience, can not?"
I suppose many people will have a different experience, however so far after weeks of talking to the people trying to recruit me, not once has anyone stated they or anyone else in the organization was "more qualified" than someone with the background and experience you refer to. Perhaps you're dealing with some people that aren't quite up to par in your area.

"BONUS QUESTION
Can you break down the promotion process, in detail? Be sure to explain how a representative can receive two 48% raises in their first 60-90 days using the ‘accelerated management program'. Does this raise consist of your ‘up-line' receiving a lower commission in addition to your recruits, or does this suggest that the raise comes solely from your recruits which means they (your recruits) are making only 4%?"
This is nothing more than semantics. The only word of relevance in this statement is "can". When I tell you that you can become the wealthiest man in the world, it certainly doesn't say you "will". That doesn't make my statement a falsehood in any way. Whether you accomplish this or not is entirely up to you and dependant on your efforts.

"DIRECTIONS
Please provide a complete, concise, subjective analysis of the material. You will be graded for your understanding of the subject matter; content; and supporting documentation. Failure to do so will result in an ‘F' and further proof on why Primerica's system is flawed."
While you're asking how someone from Primerica can make claims about their ability to financially advise someone, please explain how you're qualified to judge respondents to your question and specifically how you can grade something without a scale for everyone to see. Apparently "F" is the only grade available.
That covers the original post. Now, I'll move on to your added posts and some of the responses from others.

Ah yes. The statistics and averages you used to support your comments. This will be easy.
Since I haven't seen the pamphlet you refer to, I'm going to assume the numbers you started with are indeed factual, as I don't see any reason for you to intentionally lie to anyone here.

"*Please note: If I account for the number of reps that make between $150K-1M that would lower that number significantly, actually making it a negative number. That means either Primerica is lying about how many people are making this kind of money, or they are lying about how much commissions they paid out. I chose both!"

This is absolutely not factual in stating that accounting for the reps you left out brings you to a negative number. Apparently math wasn't your strong point any more than researching your topic was so let me help you out here.
There is one major flaw that basically renders all of your equations incorrect and I'll share that with you in a moment.
We're going to assume that this is accurate:
"Total number of Primerica employees is 100,000.

At least 5,000 employees made over $50-100K in 2004.

4,171 (actual number) of 5,000 made around $50-100K (average it to 75K)

40 of 5,000 made at least $1,000,000"
For the purpose of this particular argument we'll also assume this is accurate (even though it isn't):
"The Shocking Computation:

Take 4,171 x $75,000 = $312,825,000 in commissions paid

Take 40 x $1,000,000 = $40,000,000 in commissions paid"
Sure, the math may be correct but that doesn't make your information correct. The answer will be at the end of this math of yours. Don't go anywhere.
Next.
"Total commissions paid = $352,825,000 in commissions paid to only 4,211 of the representatives currently employed with Primerica.

That leaves $220,175,000 in commissions to be paid out to 95,789 representatives of Primerica.

Divide the $220,175,000 by the number of reps left (95,789) and they made an astonishing $2,298.54 per year."

Yep. Wrong again. Good thing I'm not grading because you wouldn't be scoring so well.
"Seems more like the highway to financial turmoil! Do you honestly believe in Primerica so much, you are willing to get paid $2,300 per year—which averages to $44.23 per week, then, you come on this website telling us we're “stupid”, “lazy”, and “don't want to make any money”? Do you realize Central-American illegal immigrants make more than that? You're lucky it's under $7,000 per year or you would have to pay taxes on it!"

Uh oh. More misinformation based on lack of knowledge or not enough research.

Here's the kicker. Actually two of them.

For starters the biggest mistake in all incorrect equation is related once again to semantics. See, while Primerica states they have 100k reps (again using your number to keep things simple) they of course conveniently don't mention that a very large amount of those reps do absolutely nothing at all. Why? For the same reason many other compaines in the world use factual (yet not complete) data to make themselves sound better without actually lying about anything. Want an example? No problem.

Years ago I worked at a location that had a sign stating we were "Voted Atlanta's #1 Service Department 4 years in a row!" I asked the owner who had done the voting, since customers were asking me the same thing. Anyone care to guess the answer? He did all the voting himself. Did he lie? Absolutely not. Semantics again. Ever see a commercial for a car or truck stating that the vehicle is #1 in some category then see a small statement flash quickly on the screen showing that it was based on limited data? Sure you have. Is it tricky? Sure. Dishonest? No.

Interestingly enough Jay, this isn't too far from the way you handled the information you supplied in this thread.
Now let's go back to those reps that are part of Primerica, yet don't actually do anything to generate revenue for the company and therefore don't get paid.

Admittedly, wanting to get this post up (it's 11:30 pm right now) I'm not able to get 100% accurate information on exactly how many "active" reps there are. I do know from my previous enquiries with my contacts at Primerica that the number is pretty significant. A good example would be someone who replied on here and stated that right after signing up they found this website and had a change of heart and wanted a refund. That person, though they did nothing to make money, still counts as a rep when they look at how many they have. Now since they did nothing and didn't get paid anything then you certainly can't include them in the inaccurate average income you gave. There are also many reps who ARE actively doing something, yet still genereate little to no income. There are quite a few people in the office I'm dealing with that show up once or twice a month, hope to ocasionally sell something to a family member or friend but never really put much effort into it. I'd be surprised to learn they get paid more than a few hundred dollars per year.

Can I support this claim in any way? Why yes I can thanks to you Jay! How about your response after you looked at the income staement sent to you by Cody? Once again we'll assume the information you posted is factual, since in this case the document is no longer available so I can't verify it personally.
"3. You have a lot in your down line, 58 to be exact, and 7 of them even got licensed for life insurance. That's 12% of your down line making money; doesn't sound like an efficient system to me. By the way, are you paying 58 people $33.00 for every appointment, since you're the Division Leader? Were you even paying the 7 licensed people $33.00 per appointment? Are they making $2,000 per month off of training, (in addition to allegedly closing loans) also?"
Gee, according to you Jay, and the information you provided us from viewing the information Cody gave you, only 12% of his downline generated income. 12%?!?! You mean to tell me only 12% of his people are actively doing anything and making money? Heck I was nice enough to assume 50% of the reps in Primerica were active and it looks like I was waaaay off.

Thanks for the help there Jay.
Just for fun let's plug in the new numbers shall we?

If 88% of the Primerica reps aren't actually getting paid.... hmmmm....

Now if you're still with me here Jay, and you know more about math than how to read a pamphlet and use a calulator, by now you (and everyone else) should be realizing that the numbers are going to change significantly. Are we talking world shattering here? Nope. If, for example, we were to say that half of the low end earners (95,789 representatives using your math) did nothing other than sign up, then by golly the ones who did something are now making a whopping $4597.08.

Someone get Bill gates on the phone, alot of people are closing on him fast.
Having as much fun as I am? Good, we're not done yet.
The next mistake is your use of averages to make the equation work for you. Bzzzt! Wrong again.

See, there are significantly more people near the 50k range than near the 100k range. Just for fun let's say 80% of the people in that particular range (which is much more likely than simply saying they all make 75k) are making 50-60k. The higher up the income chart you go, the faster the number of people in that range drops. The true average most definitely wouldn't be 75k as you stated. The remaining 20% of the people would be making between 60-100k but we'll say they all make 100k. These numbers would be more accurate if you had thought it through a bit more. Now of course without hard data, I can't state that this is totally accurate either and I don't pretend to. I'm simply showing how it affects the numbers you erroneously posted. Let's do the math again shall we?
4,171 (actual number) of 5,000 made around $50-100K. Of those, 80% made 50-60k (we'll call it 60k) so:
4171 x .8 = 3336.8
I'm going to call that 3336 and add that last person to the high end to help you out.
Now then:
4171 - 3336 = 835
Those are all making 100k by the way.
so:
3336 x 60,000 = 200,160,000
835 x 100,000 = 83,500,000
200,160,000 + 83,500,000 = 283,660,000.
Whoa. What happened here? Your math gave a total of 312,825,000. Hmmm.
312,825,000 - 283,660,000 = 29,165,000
That's not exactly chump change now is it?
Now let's add that total to (again using your numbers) the remaining amount paid to all the reps that aren't making any real money.
220,175,000 + 29,165,000 = 249,340,000
Now the average (which we already know is skewed and inaccurate by the incomplete information you used) for the remaining 95,789 reps goes up to:
249,340,000 / 95789 = 2603.01
Still not what one would call impressive is it? Nope. Of course if you remember to throw out the half of the reps that are doing nothing at all and therefore not getting paid you get:
2603.01 x 2 = 5206.02
Certainly nothing you or I can live off of is it? Nope.

Oh wait. There's more. I seem to have exhausted the maximum available space for a single post on here so I'll have to continue on a new one.

Follow me everyone.

In the last episode, we showed a googleplex of flaws (yes I'm being facetious, don't be silly and hold me to it) in Jay's information in his attempt to discredit Primerica and it's employees.

If you haven't read the first post I made in reply, stop now and go read it. Hurry up, we won't wait long. Go.

Let me reiterate for those of you who may have missed it in my first post.

I do NOT currently work for Primerica. I have never worked for them in the past. I HAVE been contacted by someone who is trying to recruit me. Being a semi-intelligent individual, I set out to do quite a bit of research before making a decision. Do I think Primerica is a perfect company and therefore feel a need to defend them? PLEASE! I see some things about the system that give me pause which is how I wound up here.
However, I absolutely am VERY guilty of being an instigator. When I'm unable to start something though, I'll happily jump in and happily point out flaws in given argument. Poor Jay is the unfortunate person currently under fire here. I suppose this is only because on this site Primerica is without a doubt a huge underdog. I won't lose any sleep if I uncover information that causes me to decline the offer to join Primerica, as I am already gainfully employed.
Ok enough of that, now back to the good stuff.
When we left the last post, Jay was reeling from the exposure of his use of inaccurate or incomplete information. Someone get him some pain relievers please, I'm not done yet.
So far, I've shown how his attempt to come off as an intellectual with his original post failed beginning with question #4. Ok I did it out of order.... fire me. Since I don't work for Primerica, I certainly wasn't able to answer the first 3 questions, but I didn't need to answer those to render the rest of his post pointless.
Next, we went to his follow up post where he attempted to back up his first post through the use of some type of new math. Back to remedial classes for poor Jay.
The $2,300 per year he claimed 95.789% of the reps make grew to $5206.02 at the end of my last post. Really. Go read it.
Let me move on to this comment from our friend Jay:
"Seems more like the highway to financial turmoil! Do you honestly believe in Primerica so much, you are willing to get paid $2,300 per year—which averages to $44.23 per week, then, you come on this website telling us we're “stupid”, “lazy”, and “don't want to make any money”? Do you realize Central-American illegal immigrants make more than that? You're lucky it's under $7,000 per year or you would have to pay taxes on it!"
http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1405.html
Go there and you'll find that:
"Another way to think about immigrant's relative position to natives is to look at household income. The average annual household income of immigrant-headed households is $56,289, compared to $61,098 for native households. The difference of 9 percent, while not trivial, is not huge. However, immigrant households are a good deal larger on average than native households -- 3.1 persons versus 2.5 persons. As a result, the per capita household income of immigrants is only 72 percent that of natives -- $17,884 versus $24,901"
Look at the last line. This data include *legal* immigrants as well as *illegal* ones. Anyone care to wager as to whether the legal ones cause this number to be higher than it is for illegal ones? No? Didn't think so.
Now if the Primerica reps are making $5206 per year, that's still $12,678 less than our immigrant friends isn't it? Since there is a severe lack of hard data that shows how much *illegal* immigrants actually make (since providing the information would almost certainly create problems for the company reporting this information) it's a little difficult to compare the income of an illegal immigrant to someone at Primerica. The gap however is not what it seems.

Why not? Well because of the other critical error our friend Jay made when putting together his information. It's so incredibly tempting to use all caps here because it should be so obvious if he (and others) had only paid attention. I'll resist the urge though.
The vast majority of the people that work for Primerica....drumroll please...

Work only part time.
GASP!
Really. By all means Jay, go check it out. Boy that really screws up your comment comparing the immigrants doesn't it?
Let me throw out another item that changes all the math drastically. Ironically the information was provided by none other than Jay. This was after Jay reviewed the income document kindly provided by one of the Primerica reps Jay asked to respond to his fantasy "test":
"3. You have a lot in your down line, 58 to be exact, and 7 of them even got licensed for life insurance. That's 12% of your down line making money; doesn't sound like an efficient system to me. By the way, are you paying 58 people $33.00 for every appointment, since you're the Division Leader? Were you even paying the 7 licensed people $33.00 per appointment? Are they making $2,000 per month off of training, (in addition to allegedly closing loans) also?"
Wait a minute!! You mean to tell me that when I said that as much as 50% of the 100k reps in primerica don't actually make money because they aren't selling anything, I was that far off?

Wow.
Let's plug in the 12% instead of 50% shall we?

95,789 x .12 = 11,494.68
If only 12% of the reps used on Jay's original equation were actually active and making money then our new average income would be (based on his original numbers):
220,175,000 / 11,495 = 19,153.97
Hmmm.
Now of those 11,495 that are actively making money, how many of them are full time and how many part time?

Simply amazing. In case you missed it we passed the *illegal* immigrants you referred to Jay.

As all of you can certainly guess, the part timers will make less than the full timers. We're only dealing with the bottom 95% of the reps here. It's suddenly stating to look more like the full timers at least might be starting to approach a workable income.
Just for fun let's say we stick with the idea that 50% of the reps actually get paid, which means $5,200 per year (based on Jay's numbers).
That of course averages out to $100.00 per week. In the 4 weeks since I started talking to the person that contacted me, I've gone to every single opportunity meeting and training session they've had. I've also gone in to have my possible upline train me how they do things. Now the meetings/training occur on Tuesdays from 6:30pm to 7:30pm and Saturdays from 8:30am-9:30am (for the opp meeting) and 10am-11am for the training. This means 3.5 hours total per week for those sessions. I have yet to spend more than an additional 2 hours in any week for additional "training" so we're up to 5.5 hours per week. We'll assume all reps duplicate this for the sake of the math. They also have to arrange and go to presentations at the homes of people they wish to try to sell to. We're talking part timers here, who aren't doing a massive amount of work. The presentations take 1-2 hours typically (so I'm told) so if you did 5 per week at an average of 1.5 hours each, that puts the total hours for the week at 13. From what I've learned so far, few of the people who work part time and aren't serious actually do that many presentations so I'm being generous to help out Jay.

100 / 13 = 7.69
Yep. That's $7.69 per hour for working part time. Now demographics can change things dramatically but to give you a comparison, I have an 18 year old daughter who is currently looking for a part time job in our area. Do you know how many places she has been that pay part time employees $7.69/hr or more? None so far.
We live in the metro Atlanta area by the way. That's not exactly Smalltown, USA where no one pays good money. There are only a handfull of markets in the U.S. that pay 13 hour a week employees that much money. Even then it's only because everything in those areas is proportionately more expensive (700k for a 2 bedroom 1200 square foot home in L.A. anyone?).
I don't think I'm ever going to finish this. So many flaws Jay.
Time to pick some things out at random here. All of the following are comments/responses from Jay unless stated otherwise.
"The Bonus Question
It's funny, your raise level says that if you do $7,500 dollars a month in yearly life premiums (and have 3 direct districts), then you will be Regional. Well you have submitted $117,585 worth of premiums over the past year, unless you don't have 3 direct districts, shouldn't you be Regional already? Cody, this is not a generalization, this is what YOU SUBMITTED! Also, how do you make commissions off of any financial product that is sold, if you don't have your license and yet you're still making commissions off of the sale of financial products, that, my friend, IS ILLEGAL! Again, the theory of overriding more people is erroneous, because if those people are not generating any income there is nothing to override. That's why YOU HAVE 58 PEOPLE IN YOUR DOWN LINE AND ONLY MAKE $27,000!"
Am I the only person who sees how you very likely answered your own question? I'm going to go out on a limg and guess he doesn't have3 direct districts yet. That was a tough one.
"By the way, CODY, PRIMERICA (REPS) DO NOT HAVE A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE! To have a competitive advantage (sustained), your profits must exceed the average for your industry and it doesn't; your cost must be lower than the average and it isn't (based on the fact that Primerica forwards all of the cost to the reps). Go to a financial website and check if you don't believe me! There are companies that cater to the middle class in the financial market and are doing extremely better than Primerica in terms of the products they distribute; the cost of those products; and the expertise they give the consumer. Want to know one, Ameriprise Financial Services, listed on the NYSE as AMP. They have a greater market share, and I'm sure you've seen the commercials; they do cater to the middle class! Primerica is the sticky stuff at the bottom of the barrel in the financial services industry!"

Where on earth did you get your definition of competitive advantage??

ad·van·tage

( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-vntj)
n.
1. A beneficial factor or combination of factors.
2. Benefit or profit; gain: It is to your advantage to invest wisely.
3. A relatively favorable position; superiority of means: A better education gave us the advantage.
Sports.
4. The first point scored in tennis after deuce.
The resulting score.

For starters, I've already shown that you claimed that Primerica "indirectly" says they have a competitive advantage, yet you offer no proof other than your opinion. To have an advantage, you only need to offer something most if not all of your competitors offer. It doesn't even have to be the "total package". Name me a single company that offers the same range of services as Primerica, and also will come to your home to help you with those services. In the Atlanta area, I've yet to find a single one. I admit I've only talked to 5 companies, which happened to include State Farm and Prudential. They aren't very big companies anyway so maybe I shouldn't use them as an example....
Simply offering something your competition doesn't is enough to "claim" to have a competitive advantage. Sorry Jay.

"YOUR INCOME:

In looking at your income, okay, you're one of the people who just MAY make good with Primerica's flawed system. However, as I look further, you have only made $27,745.00 in the past 12 months. You have submitted $117,585 in premiums in the past 12 months which means you're making around 23.6% off of your sales. If I'm reading it wrong, then, hey, you left a lot of room for interpretation. But, if I am reading it right, then what the hell are you bragging about? I make $27,700 in my sleep (I'll explain this to you below)!"

Didn't think this one through too well either did you Jay?
For starters, it would help to know what amount of income he replaced when he went full time with Primerica. Cody stated he is a 19 year old former college student. Probably not much money.
Just to be fair let me do my homework.
http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032005/perinc/new01_010.htm
If you check that information from the census bureau, you'll find that out of the 14.2 million males in the United States in the 15-24 age group, 86.5% of them made less than $27,700 per year. That puts Cody into the top 13.5% in the country for his age group.

I'd say Cody is doing just fine without your help Jay.

"Answer to question three: Do you think I was that stupid to continue on with that mess, please! As I stated in the beginning of my comments, I make $27,000 in my sleep. Check this out: although my 6 4-unit apartments give me hell, they provide a gross income of $15,600 per month. I also have income coming from 24 washers and 24 dryers, so you see Cody, that's effective gross income of $189,200 per year (before operating expenses, debt services, depreciation, and taxes). Remember Cody, this is MY PART TIME JOB, in my full time job; I make around $48,000 per year (before tax and adjusted for overtime). I file taxes, a Schedule E (rents and royalties) and NO, I didn't have or need any down line."
Your apartments give you hell eh? So you have a full time job with some occasional overtime (according to you) AND you manage 24 apartments, 24 washers, and 24 dryers in your spare time correct? Am I the only one wondering when you find time to sleep, much less have time to have a personal life? Hey, you're the one that said your tenants give you hell not me. I'll bet Cody sees his girlfriend/wife more than you do. I'm not even adding in the time you spend on here venting about Primerica... or do you do that on company time at your full time job? Shame on you.
"A few things to consider, before you try to break down anything that I write, study up. One, you used the word, “vicarious” out of context, so why would you even be able to understand how to correlate the efficient markets hypothesis to Primerica's financial system."

I love this one. Mom always said "Practice what you preach." Try it sometime Jay.
"As for the evidence you presented here, thanks, because it gives us one of the greatest examples of how Primerica is deceptive and vague. I wonder was that story about the population the same story your RVP gave you. If so, tell him/her to think of another one, it's not working."
Deceptive and vague? While you certainly weren't vague, you erroneous information was most definitely deceptive.
deceptive

adj 1: causing one to believe what is not true or fail to believe what is true; "deceptive calm"; "a delusory pleasure" [syn: delusory] 2: tending to deceive or mislead either deliberately or inadvertently; "the deceptive calm in the eye of the storm"; "deliberately deceptive packaging"; "a misleading similarity"; "statistics can be presented in ways that are misleading" [syn: misleading]
Look at number 2. Especially notice the word inadvertently. See, you don't have to be trying to deliberately mislead anyone to be deceptive. You only have to be wrong to do that, and wrong you are on many points Jay.

Then there are the intangibles to factor into the world of Primerica. Based on everything you've stated just in this one thread, it's obvious you've never had any type of job that paid you commission based on sales. Once more you failed to do your homework. It is a very common practice in sales to have the occasional "pep rally" to keep the employees pumped up. Why do they engage in such a silly activity with adults you ask? You're math is fuzzy, and your research skills are lacking and to top it off you know little or nothing about the way the human mind works. Let me help you out here.
Jay, do you know how to ride a bike? Most people do so we'll assume (a dangerous thing here) that you do. You can interchange bike riding with swimming or something else for this simple exercise if you like. I use bike riding because it reminds me of teaching my oldest daughter how to ride in less than 10 minutes after her month failed to do it in a week.
For most people the experience is somewhat similar. Mom or dad finally takes off those training wheels and you're all nervous and scared and yet excited at the same time because you're about to become one of "the big kids". Of course the excitement wears off a bit after the first few times you fall down and get hurt doesn't it? For many kids, suddenly you don't want to ride that bike as much because you keep failing. I remember being 6 and I practically screamed to get off my bike after the first few falls. Why couldn't my daughter learn to ride after her mother tried for a week? Why was I able to show her in 10 minutes? Simple. Positive reinforcement and belief. After a couple of tries her mother said aloud "This is useless, this will never work. You're never going to learn how to do this just go inside."
I neglected to add we were divorced so I wasn't there to prevent that.
My ex wife called me and asked me to come over because she gave up trying to show my daughter how to do it. No problem.

I did the same thing my ex did in that I ran along beside my daughter holding the back of the bike several times. I had already talked to her and told her I was proud of her and I was absolutely certain she could do it and she had a big smile on her face. She fell quickly the first couple of tries but we of course tried again and on the third try I kept telling her I was there holding onto the bar on back of the bike until she was ready to tell me to let go, but I had actually let go already and she never knew it. We started over a couple of times and I did the same thing and she was riding all by herself! Then I stopped and told here that I hadn't been holding onto the bike and she was actually riding by herself and she was shocked! Now she didn't "think" she could ride her bike, she "knew" it without a doubt. From that point on she rode without help. Sure she fell some until she got better, but in many cases (when I had her with me) I would simply pick her up and encourage her and off she went to ride her bike.
The reps are the kids learning to ride a bike and the pep rally is the parent showing them positive reinforcement and believing that they can do it. More than any other job or industry that I'm personally aware of, sales is the worst for people quitting quickly due to a few early failures. So to counter that, you keep them positive and pump them up regularly until they eventually don't need it. Next thing you know you're the one leading the rally. There is nothing easy about trying to sell products to a consumer when you're strictly paid on commissions. Sadly this causes some people to act irresponsibly and they may deceive people to make a sale. This happens in every single industry that has commission based sales. This doesn't make the company or all of the employees bad.

With thousands of agents out there trying to sell the idea and/or products of Primerica, it's no surprise some of you may have found some of the bad seeds. I'll bet 90% of the people who have posted on here have at some time in thier lives seen a co-worker do something unethical. A good example is taking something trivial from work like some paper from the copier to take home for their printer. That's stealing folks. I don't see anyone posting about that, and it's much worse than someone trying to sell you an idea.
Is Primerica a bad company? Are they any worse than other similar companies? Let me offer some more information for you to digest. I went to the Better Business Bureau website and checked out Primerica, State Farm, and Progressive Insurance. The BBB shows how many complaints were filed against the companies for the past 36 months and here's how it worked out:
State Farm had 236 complaints nationally.
Progressive had 388 nationally.
Primerica had 46 nationally.
It's also interesting to note that only Primerica is actually a member of the BBB!
It's only fair to mention that both Progressive and State Farm have a larger customer base than Primerica, otherwise things would even out a bit more. However, the number of complaints lodged against Primerica on a percentage basis turns out to be about average.
What a horrible company!
How many of you out there knew that lawyers can take classes and purchase books that specifically teach them how to manipulate data and statistics to get virtually any result they like? You don't need a book or a class to do that as Jay and I have shown here. Is my information 100% accurate? Absolutely not. since I don't have actual incomes for every employee of Primerica, my numbers are also going to be wrong. They are however considerably closer to accurate than Jay's are. I didn't make an effort to twist statistics to help myself out but if I did it would look like this:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/876410/posts
Now a little something about myself before I end this.
If you made it this far you may or may not be surprised to learn I have a ninth grade education and a GED. Many people equate this with a lack of intelligence. I also happen to be a member of Mensa which requires that your IQ be in the top 2% of the world. Not U.S., but the world. I lack much in formal education sadly, but I'm far from stupid. I also happen to suffer from ADD, the primary downside for me being that I have alot of difficulty focusing and extremely poor retention. Talk about getting shafted. I was lucky enough to have above average intellect yet I can't remember a damn thing. Does this make me better than any of you? Not even remotely. Most of you are very likely more mature and responsible than I am and don't have a poor memory to hold you back. I'm also very shy and introverted which means I'm not much of a people person and am almost terrified of groups of people.
Now ask yourself "why in the hell would someone like that want to work for Primerica which would require them to regularly deal with groups and also to go out and recruit people??". Good question. I'll give you the same answer I gave my potential upline.
It's not about the money for me. That's just a bonus. See, unlike my friend Jay, I understand fairly well how the mind works, and I also recognize how mine works against me which is why I am shy and introverted. I have resigned myself to the fact that I am unable to fix this on my own and need some help. Many of you call it brainwashing, I prefer something closer to programming or even just changing habits. It's a documented fact that if you surround yourself with negative people and attitudes then you will fall into this category yourself eventually (there are of course exceptions to every rule). The same applies to the opposite. I realize that if I surround myself with people that always talk and act positively, eventually my mindset will also change. That's what I'm after. The chance of making some money is just a bonus. Besides, it can't all be lies. I've seen the income statements of 4 of the full time reps. The RVP made 180k last year. Sure that's before expenses and taxes. When you say you make over 180k yourself Jay, that's before and expenses too. I wonder if he works as many hours as you do? So far I have yet to hear him say that any of his customers gives him hell.

It's almost 4am so I need to wrap this up, perhaps I'll make another post later and address many of the other things that were incorrect as posted by Jay and others.
Don't fuss at me too much for spelling or grammar if you don't mind I'm usually good at spelling but my grammar stinks.
Jay, if I've managed to offend you, allow me to apologize since it wasn't my intent to offend. Now, if I got you worked up that's another story, I won't apologize for that :) In some of your responses you weren't always nice to people who were kind enough to reply to you and occasionally you were pretty harsh. Hope you can take it as well as dish it out.
When I make my next post I'll address The error's on the part of Timothy from Valparaiso. He didn't think his information through either when he said:
"So, if paying off the debt in a shorter period is the way to go, AND the expected rate of return is 10-12%, then the APR on Primerica financing MUST exceed 10-12% for the financial plan to be “solid.“ And this, definitively, is NOT a good financial plan because the average ROR will be (at least today, and historically) higher than the average APR."
Take care all.

Jay needs no help however I'm going to try anyway. Jay breaks down Cody's commission rate as 23.6%.

Cody ol' boy, I could have signed you up with 100 companies that would have all given you 80% from day #1 AND that would have given your underlings 60% and you 20%, all from day #1.

One of the myths Primerica passes to its recruits is that they are the only company out there that gives you the opportunity to earn overrides on other people's production without the expense of running an agency. Tain't true. Get yourself a license and in 15 minutes I can have you on the phone with a half dozen national super agencies that will set you up. In each case instead of being able to offer only the overpriced products of one carrier, you'll be able to offer your clients their choice of a 100 or so name brand carriers.

You won't have to give your "warm market" away to someone else. You can get paid full commission on it.

The so called training you get from primerica is nothing more than rehearsal in an old fashioned sales track which has been designed to tell each and every client exactly the same thing......they should buy term insurance, invest in mutual funds, and consolidate their debt.

If someone is a diabetic, has high cholesterol, high blood pressure or any other number of medical consitions you can still get them term insurance at a reasonable price. Now all you can do is walk away.

Primerica sold Cody a Yugo and convinced him it was a Lexus.

I like your honest effort, but I must rebutt you.
Quoting:

"they of course conveniently don't mention that a very large amount of those reps do absolutely nothing at all." How do you know this Jim? (this is a standard line used by Crimerica shills).

I like facts too Jim. For example I know that the average income of all Primericans is less than $6,000 a year (before business expenses). Once you factor in what the fat cats grab for themselves, that does leave less in the pot for the rest to go after. And this is true year after year (one of the main driving factors behind the exodus of over 100,000 agents a year from Crimerica). With regards to the fat cats, name 12 Crimerican officers who came up through the ranks starting as a new agent. How is that for a test?

I can go on, but I urge all visitors to read the threads and check other websites.

Yours has been the most thought-out, logical response to this whole thread. I have read many of Jay's tirades against Primerica on this forum but have never replied because I felt it would be like talking to a rock.

I was in the industry (not Primerica) for 12 years. For the last five, my income was in the seven figure range. Naturally, that was pre-tax and expenses. But, of course, being in the industry, I knew the proper way to handle it. Because of my production, for several years many benefits, such as office space and furniture, were provided by my primary vendor. These was not considered income, thus had no tax consequences. Secretarial/support duties were performed by my wife from her home office.

I totally agree with your comments as to why 'pep' rallies have to be held. I conducted them on a regular basis to encourage our newer reps.

Jay may ask why I'm no longer in the industry. My wife and I like to travel. I like to have my summers free for these trips. Conducting classes in Economics at a local university makes it ideal for the lifestyle to which we've become accustomed.

We were able to achieve all this because of a company like Primerica. When I was first hired, I had to borrow the $125 (not $199 as with Primerica) from a family member. After becoming licensed, the company reimbursed me this money.

And the residual checks still keep coming in without my having to collect quarters from many washer/dryer locations or putting up with irate tenants!

Good luck to you, Jim. I'm glad to see someone look at this opportunity with an open mind. I'm sure you'll do very well--as long as you don't let Jay talk you out of it!

I going to respond to a couple things and add alittle insight..

Primeria, which is a company in Duluth GA, does have employees.. As agents we are not employees of Primerica. So when a sales rep says they are looking to fill jobs or implies a employee/employer relationship, then that is not correct by a long shot..and that should be brought to the office attention immediately.

I don't depend on recruiting for business solely, there are plenty of other legitimate ways of getting sale leads.

The $199.00 as stated many times is for the class and books but if you want you can find your own classes and pay alot more, at least here in ohio.

You need to use some intelligence. If you want a copy of our 199 reports, or you want to see some paychecks, feel free to walk into any Primerica Office and peopel I'm sure would be very happy to show you these. I will.

There were several responses on this particular original comment, not not believing that Primerica peopel make any kind of decent money. Think about this... only 4% of the entire population of the United State of America make more than $50,000.00 a year. In terms of the Representative of Primerica member of Citigroup; 5% of the representative make over $100,000.00 a year, 1% make more than $1,000,000.00 a year. Given that is percentages of 200,000 fully licensed people, that is pretty good.

I am a representative of Primerica, and I think their system is pretty dern excellent. I used to work for Bank One Corporte Tax Division for five years. In this capacity I had the opportunity to work with several high end clients, dealing with their personal financial situations. There were people that came in there each and every day wanting to do somehting with their spare 200K laying around. Working in this capacity I had to get licenses with the State of Illinois and the NASD in order to do anything with those moneies. Later Bank One moved me to Ohio and I had to get a different License in Ohio to work in the same capacity. I did this all the way through college to help pay for my degree in Electrical Engineering. The money at Bank One was okay, and I had some extra licenses I could add to my resume, but my managers made a higher commision than I did.

When I came accross Primerica, I was introduced by way of a Corporate Overview designed to give a group of people an idea of what the company did and what their goals were and what the expectations were of their representatives. I was quite impressed with the company, because they did something that Bank One (whom I worked for) and American Express (who I'd interviewd with) and Merrill Lynch (who I also intervied with) did not. They catered to peoplel of middle and lower income america.

I myself grew up in a non-walthy part of Chicago, with two college educated Blind parents, who both worked, but because of their limitations were never fortunate enough to get really high end jobs. This meant we had limitations growing up of what we could do without extra dollars.

I tried several times to find ways to get some of the advising that my department was providing to very wealthy people at Bank One to my community all the time without success. Pretty much the Banks Investment division was only interested in helping clients with more than a $50k networth. One thing I was able to get them to do was participate in something called "Academy of Finance" a program started by Citigroup providing financial education in certain high schools around the nation.

Sitting at that Corporate Overview at Primerica was an eye opening experience for me telling me that there was somehting actually out there already helping people the way I had been trying to for years. Primerica does quite a few things. I saw that they give everyone a chance to say why they can do something better. When I intervied at American Express, and Merrill Lynch, they said, "You have the Licenses, but not enough experience yet." Primerica, not only was satisfied that I had my licenses already...if I hadn't they would have paid 2/3 of the cost up front for me and then reimbursed the rest after I was licensed. Bank One didn't do that for me. Bank One said "look you need a license...get it." I paid $568.00 out of my pocket to get just the first license. I had to spend another $415.00 to the state of Ohio once I moved for my license there.

I started working with Primerica and learned so much more, and was able to help so many more people. I actually went back to Chicago to help my Parents first just to see what they really ad and see if we could do anything for them. My parents who worked hard pretty much didn't know what to do in terms of saving APPROPRIATELY for retirement. Through Smith Barney (sister company of Primerica) and Van Kampen (sister company of Primerica) I was able to set them up with the perfect retirement program for them. All the other financial advision companies wanted to charge a thousand dollars just to do an analysis and then tell them what to do with their money. That money is better off saved. Primerica also gave me the opportunity to help other people work and help others as well. I have a quite a few people wroking with methat work only part time just because they needed only a few extra dollars in their budget just to get by. One who has become a dear friend; I met her actually as a client putting an analysis together for her to see who she could eliminater her debt before hitting retirement (she was already over age 50). One of the things I found is that basically she needed more money. Her job as an administrative assistant with another large company in Columbus, paid her like $40k a year, but she has two kids in college one still at home and still has a mortgage and credit cards etc. Even with all she had she needed at least and extra $700.00 a month just to get by. I new that she was a sharp person and likes helping people so I gave her the opportunity that was given to me at Primerica before. She started with Primerica part time, got her licenses, and helps other families just like hers one day a week. That one day a week, has yeilded her, like an extra $1,600.00 a month.

There are peopel that have part-time and even full-time jobs that only pay them $1,600.00 all month long. She has been able to make up the extra $700 that she needed to help pay off her debt and even makes enough to save more for that retirement time. That's not bad for working roughly 4 hours a day for 4 days a month. There are a ton of people that work with Primerica in this fashion (part-time). You're right those probably don't make $50,000.00 a year; but what part time anything woudl pay you that...none that I know of.

Jay, also asked why, would I hire someone without a finance degree. I ask you this...have you ever had a job intervie anywhere and got turned down? Most people have at one time in their life. Primerica does not allow everybody to work with them, but I'll tell you this when I interview someone...if they are a mechanic, currently, or a truck driver, or a retail clerk, or a server, as long as they are someone that tells me in an interview that they truly want to do something big, they truly want to make a difference in their lives and in someone else's lives, and they don't have any kind of criminal record at all, then i will at least give the the chance. I will at least allow them the opportunity to turn an application in to the State Department of Insurance and NASD. My office is set up to provide the training, that is needed, if they are the right person, they will show up and they will learn and they will help people.

You need to use some intelligence. If you want a copy of our 1099 reports, or you want to see some paychecks, feel free to walk into any Primerica Office and people I'm sure would be very happy to show you these. I will.

There were several responses on this particular original comment, not not believing that Primerica people make any kind of decent money. Think about this... only 4% of the entire population of the United State of America make more than $50,000.00 a year. In terms of the Representative of Primerica member of Citigroup; 5% of the representative make over $100,000.00 a year, 1% make more than $1,000,000.00 a year. Given that is percentages of 200,000 fully licensed people, that is pretty good.

I am a representative of Primerica, and I think their system is pretty dern excellent. I used to work for Bank One Corporate Tax Division for five years. In this capacity I had the opportunity to work with several high end clients, dealing with their personal financial situations. There were people that came in there each and every day wanting to do something with their spare 200K laying around. Working in this capacity I had to get licenses with the State of Illinois and the NASD in order to do anything with those moneies. Later Bank One moved me to Ohio and I had to get a different License in Ohio to work in the same capacity. I did this all the way through college to help pay for my degree in Electrical Engineering. The money at Bank One was okay, and I had some extra licenses I could add to my resume, but my managers made a higher commission than I did.

When I came across Primerica, I was introduced by way of a Corporate Overview designed to give a group of people an idea of what the company did and what their goals were and what the expectations were of their representatives. I was quite impressed with the company, because they did something that Bank One (whom I worked for) and American Express (who I'd interviewed with) and Merrill Lynch (who I also intervied with) did not. They catered to people of middle and lower income America.

I myself grew up in a non-wealthy part of Chicago, with two college educated Blind parents, who both worked, but because of their limitations were never fortunate enough to get really high end jobs. This meant we had limitations growing up of what we could do without extra dollars.

I tried several times to find ways to get some of the advising that my department was providing to very wealthy people at Bank One to my community all the time without success. Pretty much the Banks Investment division was only interested in helping clients with more than a $50k net worth. One thing I was able to get them to do was participate in something called "Academy of Finance" a program started by Citigroup providing financial education in certain high schools around the nation.

Sitting at that Corporate Overview at Primerica was an eye opening experience for me telling me that there was something actually out there already helping people the way I had been trying to for years. Primerica does quite a few things. I saw that they give everyone a chance to say why they can do something better. When I interviewed at American Express, and Merrill Lynch, they said, "You have the Licenses, but not enough experience yet." Primerica, not only was satisfied that I had my licenses already...if I hadn't they would have paid 2/3 of the cost up front for me and then reimbursed the rest after I was licensed. Bank One didn't do that for me. Bank One said "look you need a license...get it." I paid $568.00 out of my pocket to get just the first license. I had to spend another $415.00 to the state of Ohio once I moved for my license there.

I started working with Primerica and learned so much more, and was able to help so many more people. I actually went back to Chicago to help my Parents first just to see what they really ad and see if we could do anything for them. My parents who worked hard pretty much didn't know what to do in terms of saving APPROPRIATELY for retirement. Through Smith Barney (sister company of Primerica) and Van Kampen (sister company of Primerica) I was able to set them up with the perfect retirement program for them. All the other financial advisior companies wanted to charge a thousand dollars just to do an analysis and then tell them what to do with their money. That money is better off saved. Primerica also gave me the opportunity to help other people work and help others as well. I have a quite a few people working with me that work only part time just because they needed only a few extra dollars in their budget just to get by. One who has become a dear friend; I met her actually as a client putting an analysis together for her to see who she could eliminator her debt before hitting retirement (she was already over age 50). One of the things I found is that basically she needed more money. Her job as an administrative assistant with another large company in Columbus, paid her like $40k a year, but she has two kids in college one still at home and still has a mortgage and credit cards etc. Even with all she had she needed at least and extra $700.00 a month just to get by. I new that she was a sharp person and likes helping people so I gave her the opportunity that was given to me at Primerica before. She started with Primerica part time, got her licenses, and helps other families just like hers one day a week. That one day a week, has yielded her, like an extra $1,600.00 a month.

There are people that have part-time and even full-time jobs that only pay them $1,600.00 all month long. She has been able to make up the extra $700 that she needed to help pay off her debt and even makes enough to save more for that retirement time. That's not bad for working roughly 4 hours a day for 4 days a month. There are a ton of people that work with Primerica in this fashion (part-time). You're right those probably don't make $50,000.00 a year; but what part time anything would pay you that...none that I know of.

Jay, also asked why, would I hire someone without a finance degree. I ask you this...have you ever had a job interview anywhere and got turned down? Most people have at one time in their life. Primerica does not allow everybody to work with them, but I'll tell you this when I interview someone...if they are a mechanic, currently, or a truck driver, or a retail clerk, or a server, as long as they are someone that tells me in an interview that they truly want to do something big, they truly want to make a difference in their lives and in someone else's lives, and they don't have any kind of criminal record at all, then i will at least give the the chance. I will at least allow them the opportunity to turn an application in to the State Department of Insurance and NASD. My office is set up to provide the training, that is needed, if they are the right person, they will show up and they will learn and they will help people.

After looking over the reports filed by by John and Brett from Columbus, OH, (on 1/15), I have every reason to believe that they are the same person who is trying to give the impression that there are multiple posters trying to rebutt.

I request you investigate. If they are the same then I would request that you ban this poster for the deception that he's trying to perpetrate on this website.

((See BUSTED! below))

Great, some more Primerica reps, one who seems somewhat intelligent too! (A big difference from the other Jim).

I just got back in town and this is all I can write for now, but it's coming!

Jim from GA, I hope you are ready because I got some good news for you, my rebuttal is coming, however, I have to take care of some things first.

John from OH, it will be my pleasure to refute you also.

This is going to be good...

Stay tuned!

WELL, YOU KNOW I CANT GO TO ONE OF THOSE TRASHY OFFICES AND GET A 1099, THEY WONT GIVE IT TO ME. WHY DONT YOU JUST POST YOUR 1099. YOU ALL KNOW THIS IS A CULT. PEOPLE GO TO THESE RAH RAH MEETINGS JUST TO FELL LIKE THIER PART OF SOMETHING, EVEN THOUGH IT IS INDEED A JOKE OF A COMPANY. YOU TALK ABOUT GIVING PEOPLE A CHANCE? WHAT CHANCE? YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE. YOU DONT PAY FOR THIER LICENSES, YOU DONT PROVIDE OFFICES AND IF THEY DO SELL SOMETHING, YOU PAY OUT A VERY MINIMAL COMMISION. HOW ARE YOU GIVING SOMEONE A CHANCE YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE. FOR THE RECORD IT COSTS $101 FOR BOOKS AND THE STATE OF MICHIGAN LIFE INSURANCE LICENSE. IF I DO MY MATH RIGHT THAT IS A $98 PROFIT TO "HIRE" SOMEONE, SO THATS WHY YOU ALL PUSH RECRUITING SO MUCH. IN THE REAL WORLD OF FINANCIAL SERVICES, YOU DONT WANT ANY OF YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY, DOING THIS YOU WANT TO DO IT FOR THEM BECAUSE THAT WAY YOU GET THE BUSINESS, WHO WANTS MORE COMPETITION THAN THERE ALREADY IS, ESPECIALLY YOUR WARM MARKET. JUST QUIT STATING YOU MAKE ALL THIS MONEY UNLESS YOU ARE GOING TO POST YOUR EARNINGS TO PROVE US ALL WRONG. YOU KNOW NONE OF US ARE GOING TO GO TO ONE OF THOSE DUMPS AND ASK FOR A 1099, AND YOU KNOW IF WE DID WE WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO SEE IT. IT'S A CULT THATS IT, JUST ADMIT IT YOU FAKES

John from Ohio says only 4% OF POPULATION MAKES $50,000. Maybe the caveat here is the use of the term "population"......which would include children, retired and disabled. The US Census Buruea has some different numbers. According to the US Census Bureau in 2004 the median income in 33 of 50 states is over $50,000, with a range of a low of $39,995 to a high of $73,000. Further, it says in its breakdown of FULLTIME workers that men average a shade over $40,000 and women a bit over $31,000. Even more to the point it says that 5% of the fulltime workers make over $88,000.

Buying insurance from Primerica has a lost opportunity cost that 99% of their sales force can't even define let alone calculate. Since the only solution for insurance and investment Primerica deems worthy is term insurance plus mutual fund investing and Primerica readily admits they are not cheap lets exmaine what the "lost opportunity cost" is for some people to deal with Primerica.

Lets take a couple both age 43. We'll assume they are preferred risk non-smokers (contrary to Primerica myth this the rating classification the most people fall under) Let's say they need $300,000 of 20 year guaranteed level insurance and can commit $125 a month ($1500 per year) for both insurance and investments. They can purchase the term insurance from a well known A++ rated company for $611 per year or they can purchase it for $896 per year from Primerica. That is a difference of $285 per year.

With the exception of a few Smith-Barney house funds this couple can purchase exactly the same mutual funds from any other registered rep as a primerica rep can offer. That $285 difference is the "lost opportunity cost" of dealing with Primerica. We'll pretend this investment earns 10%. In 20 years time that $285 per year would have provided an extra $18,010 in retirement funds. That $18,010 is the the "lost opportunity cost cost of dealing with a Primerica rep, not the $23.75 a month. The $18,010 is the REAL cost.

The same can be said of their debt solution. loan. Primerica reps roll their credit card debt and house payment into one consolidated mortgage loan with a bi-weekly payment schedule. They also have been known to roll car payments into the new home loan meaning the person will be paying on a car for years and years after he has unloaded it. The Primerica reps offer a loan with more points and higher interest than is possible with a mortgage broker. There is more "lost opportunity cost" associated with this loan.

On an average size loan of $200,000 if you pay just 1 more point and just 1/2 of 1% higher loan rate, at the assumed rate of return of 10% (which is less than number Primerica reps assume)
the "lost opportunity cost" on the loan over 20 years is $69,056 added to the $18,010 you lost buying overpriced insurance.....a total of $87,066.

If Primerica actually believed their rhetoric about how they will help the little guy when the other companies won't then they should offer products as good as the other guys offer.

Primerica is and always has been a great marketing concept designed to make its creator, A.L. Williams, megarich while cynically exploiting the lack of knowledge of its target clientelle.

Finally John from Ohio says that Primerica has been good for him. Maybe it has.....but the cost to your clients for your help (sic) is in the 10s of $1,000s of dollars.

Jay great job for breaking down a brochure on commisions. THat has absolutley nothing to do with the Salarys paid to the Office Staff.

You also mentioned that Primerica wants you to leave your "Good Paying Job" to make less than you do now. That is not the smartest thing that could be said, because I'm quite certain that Primerica/Citigroup or any of it's represenatives requested you to do that.

Primerica has somewhere in the neighborhoold of 110,000 Licensed peopel appointed with as Registered Representatives. Only about 36,000 of those are full time. I know for a fact that my office has about 300 people that are licensed and work part time somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 days a week. You're right those peopel only make abotu $1,000 or $1,600 a month. That's pretty decent part time income. I know when I was working as an Engineer, and still needed extra money just to keep up with society, my part-time jobs didnt' pay that for putting in five or six extra days.

It seems Jay, like you don't want to do anything different. I can understand that. That is okay, but it obviously don't have your facts straight about how things work. Aside from you talking to the right people and having them show you the information you are looking for; it seems that there is no resolution for you. It seems like you will hate Primerica forever. I am okay with that and so is the rest of the Citigroup.

I'll tell you this about my spersonal story, I worked part-time (something like 15 hours a month) with Primerica for about a year and a half. The first year I did actual work for like only 6 month; I made just over $10,000. I was quite satisfied to make an extra $10k for somehting I did part-time when I could fit it around my schedule. If i add it all up that comes to about $250 an hour. You may not be...but I was satisfied. That's $10k extra I was able to put to mysavings, and washat was more important is that I was able to help out a few people in the process. The second year I workd about 9 months, my mom was sick, so I had to leave town to tend to her and Primerica is so flexible that it was easy for me to take that time off without getting fired or anything like that. My full time job wasn't so generous, and they ate up my PTO and sick leave. That year with Primerica working extremely part time for roughly 9 months I made about $27,000. That comes to about only $150 per hour, so if you think about it my income went down. You may no be...but I was satisfied. That's an extra $27,000 that I didn't have before. That's my fully funded IRA, for the year, that's the kids College Savings account Funded for the year, and that's also money towards my retirement., that I didn't have before.

That is strange that you would say that you Think I am Brett are the same people. We are not. We obviously have separate logins. We do both work in the same office. So therefore if you are seeing the same IP address, that is because we are in the same Office.

I will say this though. I think it is funny, that you have no other argument for our response, than "You must be the same people." We have have the same views, because we work in the same place, and we both, Make money through Primerica.

Don't be mad that we have given you the answer you are looking for.

43 300,000 Preferred Non Smoker with Primerica is $498.00 a year.

I'm sorry that is actually $113 less than the 611 that you mention.

That $113 dollars that that family saves can be added to that IRA Mutual Fund through Smith Barney. If that is getting 10% and they do that from age 43 (as you provided) to retirement age 65 they will have $100,777.76 saved towards retirement. But you mentioned this family would have $1,500 each year to put towards their financial independance. That would mean them to have more:

30 Year Term Insurance $47.31 /month $498.00/year
Smith Barney MutualFund $77.69/month $1002.00/year
Total

$125.00/month $1500.00/year

Not only will they have insurance until they are 73 years old. But at age 65 they will also have $101,752.66. That seems like a better program to me than what you were spouting.

By the way if you look at the AM Best Primerica is A++, Moody's AA+.

One more thing Leroy, about the Loans. Every lending company in the world does refinances to consolidate debt. CitiBank, (the bank that does the consolidation loans for Primerica) does the bi-weeksly's with shave yearsa off of a mortgage.

I just did onw that totald $180,000 before doing anything with all their credit card debt and they trucks they would have paid a total of $400,000 in interest payments until 2059. I was able to consolidate for them and get them out of debt completley in 2016 and only spend $99,000.00 in interest. Hands down that is a better deal.

Rolling a car payment into a consolidation is a good idea, because you pay the car off right away, and you begin creating a ton of equity in your property that most didn't have before within the first 15 months.

Read it closer Leroy.

You spent about an encyclpoedia set worth of diatribe making excuses for WHY Primerica's numbers stink. But, in the end, all you really did was verify most of Jay's statements.

Most Primericans are part time, only 12% of them ever actually get licensed, etc., etc. Great.

Now, can you tell us WHY most Primericans are working part time? The sad truth is that most Primerica recruits think they are heading into a full-time career when they sign on. After a few weeks, however, they realize that Primerica does not offer quite the "opportunity" that they initially thought, and they find new "day jobs."

And can you tell my WHY the Primerican roster is SO padded with people who aren't even active? Could it be because SO many people take a stab at this endeavor, realize that they've been duped, and stop trying? And, FYI, it would be a 10b-5 violation for Primerica to keep non-active agents on its rosters for too long, especially when the "roster" referred to is an SEC filing. I'm suspecting that many of the "inactives" are actually active, they just aren't selling anything.

It all comes back to deceptive recruiting. Even your rosy, manipulated numbers (which are probably somewhere close to the reality) aren't anywhere near the expectations of a new recruit. And, if those numbers are accurate, and if they actually represent a likelihood of minimal success, then why doesn't Primerica direct its recruit to THOSE numbers, and not the numbers of its top earners, who by your statements probably aren't even actually reps?

We can argue about the numbers, but here's some indisputable bottom lines for ya:

1) Nobody has ever "stuck around" to defend Primerica on the RoR. Primericans put in one, maybe even a few rebuttals and we never hear from them again.

2) An invitation has been extended to dozens of Primericans over the years: come back in six months and tell us of your success. How many have taken us up on that invitation? NOT ONE!

Draw your own inferences.

And, finally, I thought you were going to tear apart this statement:

"So, if paying off the debt in a shorter period is the way to go, AND the expected rate of return is 10-12%, then the APR on Primerica financing MUST exceed 10-12% for the financial plan to be “solid.“ And this, definitively, is NOT a good financial plan because the average ROR will be (at least today, and historically) higher than the average APR."

The gist of that statement is that Primerica CANNOT, in accordance with simple principles of economics, simaltaneously claim competitive rates of return on investments AND competitive APRs on loan products while holding to the "pay it off ASAP" philosophy. Prove me wrong like you said you would, brother.

But for God's sake, PLEASE keep it short.

"John and Brett are NOT the same People.!!!" Are you addressing me or the EDitorial staff?

Some evidence that you're the same is that you BOTH misspell license the same way - licence (I can give more evidence, but I accept the word of the EDitorial staff as final).

I have a close, personal friend who works for Primerica. He genuinely loves to help people, and left his $45,000 a year job managing a McDonald's.

He is now doing Primerica full time, with over 20 recruits, and he's making money. I still don't understand what is so flawed about their system? Managers receiving overrides from employee sales is commonplace in the sales market. Also, I've seen him devise financial plans to help people.

Dave Ramsey used to be with Primerica, and the same strategies that Ramsey effectively uses every day to help people are the same principles my friend uses, and the same ones he touts through Primerica. I don't think anyone can say Ramsey's system is flawed. Roy Matlock Jr. is still with Primerica, and he is one of the most respected financial gurus in the country. What is the problem with Primerica, before I join?

Bi-weekly pay programs are okay......the point is you can do precisely the same thing by adding an extra 8.33% of the principle and interest payment each month. I can't imagine what possible advantage a bi-weekly program has over a standard monthly loan when you can achieve exactly the same thing by adding some dollars to the monthly payment. To me a bi-weekly plan is nothing more than a numbers gimmick designed to help sell a program.

John says that everyone does loan consolidation loans. Okay. Big deal. John says he saved someone $300,000 over in interest over 53 years by consolidating loans. Okay. My point is this......if they paid primerica one more point for that loan and a half-percent more in interest (which is pretty typical) than someone else would have charged, they are still paying MORE THAN THEY SHOULD in interest. Had they gotten a loan with a lower % rate and then added 8.33% each month to the principle and interest payment they would STILL be out of debt at the same time primerica calculates and would have paid less money in interest during that period of time, thus saving MORE than the $300,000 John claims.

Primericans...you can believe in the general principles Primerica teaches you. Thats fine.
Buying term and investing the difference is the best way to go for 90-95% of the folks out there. Paying off a mortgage early is a fine concept. What I keep trying to tell you is that with cheaper term the client has more difference to invest. With lower interest rates and points on a loan then the house will be paid off earlier. You can do these things with other companies that can afford to charge the clients less for their products because they don't have to subsidize a BLOATED commission structure like primerica has.

The other thing I'd like to emphasize is that BTID and paying off a house early ISN'T THE BEST THING ALL THE TIME!

I'm back and that may or may not be good news for “the new Jim”. However, I must say that it was interesting to see someone attempt to discredit my reports. Something you should consider Jim, quantity does not necessarily equal quality. Your rebuttal is quite long, but it DEFINITELY lacks true quality. This is what I have realized after reading your lengthy thread. (And I will try to keep this short and simple)

1. You could have kept the Ken Young comments, none of them were used on my thread, just a reference to his site. The reason, he won a court case against Primerica and, contrary to your opinion, has some interesting things on his website.

2. I noticed that a significant portion of the reason your rebuttal is so long is because you copied sections of my original report. Therefore, you didn't really have a lot to say, you just made it look that way! As a matter of fact; if you cut out my comments and the definitions, you could have saved approximately five pages worth of information.

3. I noticed that you have only been with Primerica for 4 weeks, yet you write a thesis fit for a Ph D program (being very sarcastic there) about things you know about Primerica. That's interesting!

4. It would be nice one day to see someone that speaks on behalf of Primerica come into this thread that has sound knowledge concerning Finance and Economics. Jim, do you realize that the financial markets that we utilize today; and the individuals that work in that industry, utilize THESE ECONOMIC PRINCIPLES to predict financial market activity. So that portion of my argument IS VALID, no apologies needed!

Economics (as it IS taught in college) is built around ECONOMIC THEORIES. To say that they hold no merit is to say that economics; being an economist; or holding an economics degree is useless. Come on, you seem intelligent, get it together, quickly! In short, that negates your submission of dictionary definitions of the words, “hypothesis” and “theory”. I already knew what they meant!

5. Starting at the word, “Question 4” to the words “ah yes”, I'm not responding to because you don't really make an argument. Also, if you had thoroughly read my comments and the comments of others, you would have gotten that information, unfortunately you didn't read thoroughly.

6. I will start this one with a quote from John, an active Primerica rep:

“Primerica has somewhere in the neighborhoold of 110,000 Licensed peopel appointed with as Registered Representatives.”

You know what this means Jim, my breakdown AND your breakdown of the income statistics is wrong. Unfortunately, that only hurts your comments and helps mine. Aside from the misspelled words John makes a good point.

THERE ARE 110,000 LICENSED REPRESENTATIVES OF PRIMERICA!

So, in 2004 (without adjustments for differences in income like I've always said), the average income for Primerica reps is NOW $5,209.00. There is no way on this earth that you are going to attempt to convince me that 88% of these 110K licensed representatives are not trying to make money at Primerica, WHY WOULD THEY HAVE GOTTEN LICENSED! To say that is ridiculous and with John making that statement, that negates MOST, if not, ALL of YOUR deceptive statistics concerning their income. If reps are licensed through Primerica, yet not working for Primerica, then Primerica should have done the following (based on the rules & regulations of the NASD):

Based on the rules of the NASD, if a representative registered with the NASD leaves for any reason, they (Primerica) have 30 days to supply that person with a Uniform Termination Notice for Securities Industry Registration (Form U-5). If that person decides to work in the same industry, their new employer should receive a copy of the U-5 and follow the appropriate protocol. As a registered representative, they have an agency relationship with Primerica whether as an employee or an independent contractor. In short, if Primerica is not using the U-5 after reps terminate their relationship with Primerica, they are causing that rep to be in violation of the NASD and so is Primerica for not filing it. Not only that, one Primerica rep explained that they are doing that to fluff their numbers, which is DEFINITELY unethical if you're screwing up someone's creditability with the NASD.

Disclaimer: If they ARE using the U-5 then Thank God it's not like that!

Back to the statistics! The funny thing is, the income can easily be proven, because ALL the Primerica reps in here know which pamphlet I'm talking about. They also have access to Primiercaonline.com which gives you all of that information. If it was any different, they would have spoke out, BUT THEY DON'T, only you Jim whose not even a rep yet! Again no apologies needed here, but to reiterate, John (a Primerica rep) busted your theory, so I will skip down to the words, “see there are more people”.

7. You start off by saying, “See, there are significantly more people near the 50k range than near the 100k range.” You know this information, how? Remember, you are not a rep and you've only been in the presence of some Primerica reps for a few weeks. In attempting to rebuttal me, you violate your own principle. It is very deceptive for YOU to assume you know everything about Primerica WHEN YOU'RE NOT EVEN A REP, NOR HAVE ACCESS TO INFORMATION ONLY REPS WOULD!

There is a moral to this story so far! Being facetious and sarcastic does not equal intelligence! Now, skipping down even further!

(Hmmm…Poor Jay is looking pretty good right about now!)

8. The ‘illegal immigrant comment' was a joke that Jim obviously did not catch. Even further, Jim went on and looked at statistics (and did research) of immigrants, NOT illegal immigrants, which are TWO entirely different situations! You read one word and ‘jumped out of the tree' (by the way, I don't mean that literally) on that one. Unfortunately, you landed on your head! I didn't need to do research on that, everyone but you knew where I was going with that and did not take me literally. So again, we have to skip down through your poorly written report because of YOUR obviously mistakes. I'll go to the words, “You mean to tell me”!

9. Although John's comments about the 110K licensed reps negate this comment, I feel the need to respond to it just in case you may have forgotten. You attempt to plug Cody's 12% efficiency rate into the tally of reps making money at Primerica, but that's really pathetic! First off, (and this is just mere common sense) Cody's rate would not be the same as someone else.

Even better, considering the tally Primerica gave us concerning its reps only accounts for the ones that are licensed and registered (as John so eloquently described), this is yet another comment of yours blown out of the water (oh yeah, I don't mean that literally). Then you mention most of the reps at Primerica work part-time, YOU KNOW THIS, how?! Got to skip down again (most of the comments following “you mean to tell me” is erroneous because of Jim's NOW obvious errors). I am skipping down to “Am I the only person”.

10. Seems as if you know more about Cody and he does! I guess you know for a fact that Cody doesn't have 3 districts. He hasn't returned, but I think he named at least two (Deb and Dave) in his rebuttal to my comments! Again, you are stuck trying to refute someone with information you don't know and don't care to know! In your defense; you did say that you were just an instigator. So go ahead, URGE your people to do something destructive, like joining Primerica.

11. My definition of competitive advantage. Wow, this one was funny, but then I read further down in your thread and realized why you may have questioned this. Anyway, one error that I will admit to is I didn't adjust my writing skills to fit the level of intelligence of my reader. I personally didn't realize that you don't understand that there are connotative and denotative meanings to words. Therefore, the business economic definition (connotative meaning) of competitive advantage (not just the word “advantage”) will be distinctively different from its denotative (direct, exact) definition.

Exposure to education on economics through a formal education or some form of experience in the industry would have helped you understand the difference and that does not warrant any further commentary!

12. To the comments about my personal life, first off, you don't know me so you may want to leave that subject alone. You mention my wife and you don't even know if I'm married or not. By the way, I am and the funny thing is; my wife and I manage the properties. She does most of the work. Not only that, you don't even know how much of my income is generated through overtime now do you Jim, I just mentioned it. Again, you know nothing about me and to make these statements is showing me (and everyone else) how pathetic you are in trying to be the intelligent one. I just came from a vacation with my wife; therefore I was unable to respond to this garbage earlier. I don't have to try to be intelligent. If that's the way I come off, then so be it; I don't need you to validate me, because at the end of the day; when we are not on this website, I have my credentials and you have yours; I have my many successes and you have yours. Some of my credentials I have already spoken of, so read up! By the way, it doesn't take that long to type a report or get information against Primerica, it's readily available.

12A. Practice what I preach? Please! You can't find one word I used out of context, maybe out of your vocabulary, but not out of context!

13. Man, the first comment that you may be right on! No, I have not worked in the sales industry, yes; I do realize that companies do have “pep rallies”. That's also not just in the sales industry. The difference is; at other sales companies they are not asking you to bring people to join their company. Also, other companies don't have to convince you that they are a good company! Those are not the only differences, just obvious ones. With all the mess you submitted, you didn't comment on the fact that Primerica is also registered as a MLM company with dsa.org!

13A. An explanation on your child's biking riding process vs. Primerica's recruiting process does not prove that you know how the brain works. The way you start explaining this, [and I paraphrase] “I taught her in 10 minutes as opposed to her mother's failure in a week”, proves you are the average, “I think I know it all” kind of guy! You also seem to be psychic too, because although you were not there, you heard your daughter's mother say, “This is useless, this will never work. You're never going to learn how to do this just go inside.”

I think you added that comment to positively reinforce the point you're trying to make with this story. But why should I be surprised, you've been adding comments since the beginning of your response for positive reinforcement, although you don't know anything about the facts!

This is the only truth I found in your comments: “There is nothing easy about trying to sell products to a consumer when you're strictly paid on commissions. Sadly this causes some people to act irresponsibly and they may deceive people to make a sale.”

14. You contradict yourself with the list of complaints made towards other companies in comparison to Primerica. You also negate all of the reports filed on rip-off report.com. If everyone on this site chose to file a complaint with the better business bureau, then those numbers would change. Even your list of complaints is deceptive because you fail to mention that every office has to register with the BBB individually. Nationally, only 50 Primerica offices are registered with the BBB. So if there were complaints from the offices not registered (which is hundreds of offices), the BBB WOULD NOT have any record of them! Man, were you grasping for straws there!

14A. By submitting that info about the BBB, you twisted your stats Jim. Because you didn't disclose everything! I took the information that was provided to me by a representative of Primerica and their website and based my stats and reports off of that. Is that twisting statistics, hell no!

14B. The fact that you are a member of Mensa give you what, other than intellectual stimulation?! Keep in mind, I didn't make this comment without doing my research on Mensa coupled with the fact that I already knew about Mensa and the Mensa IQ test. In fact; there was an email that circulated through my company with that information. I scored pretty well!

15. To the comment, “When you say you make over 180k yourself Jay, that's before and expenses too.” OKAY I think I explained that! In fact, when you quoted something I typed, I spoke to the very nature of that, remember this, “see Cody, that's effective gross income of $189,200 per year (before operating expenses, debt services, depreciation, and taxes)”.

I guess you, again, you keep drawing for straws, but I think you're going to run out of them eventually! Yes, I do work a regular 9 to 5 in something I absolutely LOVE doing. Not only that, I am making real good profit on my rental properties, so I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO WORRIES (although, like everyone, that could change)! Why you people keep using my comment about my tenants is pathetic as well. Everyday I'm making money and don't even have to get out of bed (on some occasions). My wife doesn't work and she doesn't have to dedicate, even half a day to rental properties. See Jim, when you're a good landlord, you don't have to do much!

Like I told Cody, the only reason they give me hell is because they take my kindness for weakness. All 6 complexes have full finished basements with some nice amenities, plus I offered them some incentive programs. Sometimes that makes them think they can always get something for free from me, but I can't operate like that. Just a mental note for you, I wouldn't have a 0% vacancy rate with rents at or above fair market (for 2 bedroom apts) if I didn't understand how minds work.

Do you realize that $237,200 in total gross income is not attained (in the particular industry(ies) I operate in) by not having some form of expertise. I am currently purchasing two more 4 units and I will have enough collateral to assume the mortgage (and finance a down payment) for a 50+ unit apartment complex.

OKAY, I THINK I'M DONE! After breaking down the information you submitted, I've come to this conclusion for anyone speaking on behalf of Primerica:

If you let them talk long enough, they will eventually stick their foot in their mouth!

P.S. Nothing you wrote was worth commenting on, but if I let you get away with it, you probably would have thought that you've refuted me and I can't let that happen!

Like I told Cody, TRY AGAIN JIM!

Because you can do exactly the same things Dave Ramsey wants you to do with someone other than primerica and do it better, and do a better job for the people you love so much.

1. You can sell term insurance only through any one of several national independent agencies and be able to offer your clients the best possible product for his/her situation from a choice of 50-60 highly rated reputable companies. That means you will not have to convince your client to purchase an overpriced product with a fairy tale that it is somehow better than someone else's term insurance. It isn't.

2. If you truly truly believe in buy-term-invest-the-difference than it stands to reason you also have to believe that the less the term costs the more difference you have to invest and the more money you will end up with at the end.

3. If you truly believe that speeding up your mortgage payoff is better for the Middle Class family (some don't) then the fewer fees, points and interest the loan charges the faster they will be out of debt. Primerica offers loans that are higher in those costs than you can offer as an independent loan agent.

4. If you truly believe you can recruit a bunch of amatuer part-timers to go out and write insurance so you can make money there are a number of independent national agencies that will pay you 80-90% commission on the term you sell from the very first policy. In addition you can negotiate with them how much to give your sub-agents you recruited so you can get 20% of each policy the sell from the first one and they can get 60-70%. You can put exactly the same multi-level marketing business together as an independant agent. I have a buddy who did this 20 years ago and ended up with 1,000 agents under him writing 300-400 policies per month. You ought to see his house overlooking San Diego Bay.
When you get that big you can offer your sub-agents the full 80-90% commission on each policy and still make 20-30% for yourself.

Ask your friend with primerica what he can do for an overweight gentlemen with Type 2 diabetes. He'll say he can't do anything. I, as an independent I can get him term insurance at standard rates with about 5-6 different big time companies as long as his diabetes is controlled.

Ask your friend what primerica charges for a 40 year old single woman, then call SelectQuote or Matrix or any other of the big call-in agencies and see what they would charge. It will be almost half. I know, I have the same software they do.

Do the same with a loan. Compare a primerica loan to a loan from an independent agent. You'll see the loan from the independent costs less. As far as getting out of debt sooner goes you don't ned a bi-weekly plan. All the homeowner has to do is add 8.33% of the principle and interest to each payment and it will shorten the length of his loan by exactly the same amount of time.

As far as mutual funds go Smith-Barney is a fine company. However, their family of funds is remarkably unremarkable. You can achieve exactly the same results with Alliance or Fidelity or American Funds or any other family of funds. Its the asset allocation and the expenses that will provide the return over 30 years. By the way, Dave Ramsey says to buy no-load funds. Are you going to say Dave Ramsey is to be emulated in one area and ignored in another?

so I got an email tonight from a Primerica rep I had met the other day inviting me to his office on Saturday.

you know what's the weirdest thing?

"...10am Sharp" with a capital S in the middle of the sentence. Why is this weird?

Look up the posting of Lloyd, the Primerica rep from Valley Center, California on 3/12/2003 in this thread. He uses the same "Sharp" in the middle of a sentence.

Coincidence?

I don't pretend to be the most intelligent man on the face of the earth. I won't go into an indepth study phase just to refute all of Jay's "insurmountalbe" points. I'm not going to sling mud as many of you have chosen to do. I will say this though, I've seen more people regain hope for a bright future with Primerica than anywhere else I have ever worked. I have seen more people happy with our quality of service and our products than anywhere else. I have seen more people get excited about there future again for dealing with us and our organization than I have with any other company.

To Jay, if you want to have an informed, witty, and well thought out debate on the subjects of our business practices and our underlying agendas, feel free to look up any of the collunmists that have written articles on the good that Primerica has done for Middle America over the last 3 decades. If you can't think of any, just go to google and type in Primerica. I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for there. As for me, this is where I'm planting my flag. I enjoy what I do. I feel good about it because I get to make a lucrative income by doing something possitive for the people I care about most. I get to be excited when I wake up in the morning again. Yes, the first presentation I went to was a little cheesey, but I saw past that to the bigger picture. I've recently gotten my insurance license and I will be getting my Securities License shortly. If you and those like you are so anti-Primerica, give me cold hard VERIFIABLE FACTS WITH SOURCES THAT I CAN CHECK FOR MYSELF instead of your incescent complaining and jawjacking. Give me something to show me beyond the shadow of a doubt that I am doing the wrong thing. If you can produce such materials, than I would gladly withdraw my IBA. Until then, I urge you to enjoy your media safeharbor where you can spout your "factual" statements and rhetoric.

To quote: "To Jay, if you want to have an informed, witty, and well thought out debate on the subjects of our business practices and our underlying agendas, feel free to look up any of the collunmists that have written articles on the good that Primerica has done for Middle America over the last 3 decades. If you can't think of any, just go to google and type in Primerica. I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for there."

Well, bad news: I DID a google. Here is what I found in the first two pages of a search for "Primerica" -

12 of the results were sites built/maintained by Primerica, CitiGroup or Primerica reps (obviously they are not going to have impartial info)

2 entries for Primerica Buster

1 RichDad forum with pros and cons by users (not what I call tangible proof for or against Primerica)

2 results from Ripoff Report

1 Wikepedia article which is neutral, and mostly about the business structure itself

1 other forum with pros and cons by users

1 entry offering business services to Primerica reps

I don't really think that doing a google search has given me answers to my questions, unless I want to read Primerica sponsored sites that will give me their one sided agenda, or visit Primerica Buster, which gives me another one sided agenda.

Got any other ideas?

Fact #1 – I bet you all don't realize that I am only 25 going on 26 years old and I KNOW I'm doing well for my family. Collecting quarters or whatever, I'm starting off the same way many of the richest people in the world started. By the way, well over $200K (gross) a year is not just collecting quarters, especially for a 25 year old! (Fact: that's actually collecting over 800,000 quarters…lol)

I also grew up in an impoverished community. I'm the first in my immediate family to graduate from college. Also, the first and the youngest in my entire family to make the kind of money I'm making; and will soon be the first in my entire family to have an advanced degree in business and law (when I decide to finish up my academic career).

Fact #2 – Pete from Michigan, you exhibit cowardice for only responding when you thought someone eliminated the validity of my comments in this thread. Also your comments are extremely sketchy! You sound like the typical “infomercial success story”! I will not dissect your comments as of now, but you might want to read them again and get your “facts” straight!

Fact #3 – Keith, (sadly from my hometown) you are clueless!

Fact #4 – John, when you say that only 4% of the US population makes over $50,000 you definitely need to back that up with some evidence, because I think your number is off and obviously a fallacy of composition! Also, Fidelity Investments, Ameriprise Financial, to name a few, caters to middle-class people, so Primerica is not doing anything different. Furthermore, there ARE a few people in this thread not using intelligence; I'm not one of them!

You say that you were working in the corporate tax division of Bank One for five years servicing “high end clients” dealing with their personal financial issues, yet you were AMAZED at Primerica's boilerplate; “Finance for Dummies”; approach to investing! That honestly seems odd to me! Oh yeah, whether you're full-time or part-time, YOU ARE AN INDEPENDENT REPRESENTATIVE, THOSE COMMISSIONS HAVE EVERYTHING TO DO WITH YOUR INCOME! So are you saying that you are office staff (secretary, data entry clerk, etc.)? Finally, why on earth would I change what I'm doing if it is A VERY SUCCESSFUL VENTURE?!

Example: You're MISINFORMED if you think that consolidation loans help you build equity in your home, they do just the opposite!

Fact #5 – Most of the people on here speaking against Primerica (especially me) could give a flying 747 f_ck about what you people are doing. They felt someone was trying to rip them off; they spoke out about it; and you people came on this website trying to convince them that they were wrong! Most of the people speaking against Primerica were insulted by people; called lazy and stupid; told they “don't want to do any different”; told they'll never amount to anything; etc.
Not only were there FACTS concerning Primerica submitted; an analysis based on years of research concerning MLM companies (like Primerica) was submitted; you all just overlooked them.

Fact #6 – The most basic example – Contrary to Primerica demand; a higher interest loan DOES NOT save you money considering the cost of borrowing is arranged (through amortization) to come out at the beginning of the loan. For example, $50,000 loan @ 5.5%, amortized over 30 years, monthly payment is $283.89. Interest paid is $226.08 and principle is $57.81.

Between years 0 and 1, principle paid is $673.54; between years 1 and 2, principle paid is $711.50; between years 2 and 3, principle paid $751.68, etc. Bi-weekly payments don't offset the cost of borrowing in the first 10 years. It's really only taking half of the monthly payment ($141.95) and paying that 26 times which is still only 13 full monthly payments a year; like Leroy was explaining, but you all just don't listen. Like Leroy said; if you add 8.33% to your monthly payment ($307.00) and STILL make an additional payment (13 pmts x $307.00) in the year (maybe around tax refund season), you will be way ahead of the game!

The fact is, some people stay in their homes for the life of the loan, but most don't. Therefore, by the time you would start to get a benefit from the bi-weekly payment (which comes from resetting the accrual of interest every two weeks instead of every month) YOU'VE ALREADY SOLD THE HOME! What Primerica does is the same as what hundreds of debt consolidation companies do; they exhaust the equity you have in your home (sometimes causing a “negative equity” effect) to pay off your other expenses. This gives you one payment and of course lowers current expenses because your debt is stretched out over 30 years with a lower interest rate (relative to credit card interest rates). What's new and exciting about that?

Think about this; what happens when a family has 10K in equity and 30K in miscellaneous debt? Considering the example above, that's a $60,000 (in value) home. If you consolidate their debt into one monthly payment, their new mortgage would be $80,000 [10K worth of equity and 20K worth of negative equity], @ 7.0% amortized over 30 years, monthly payment is $532.24 or bi-weekly $266.12. This actually looks like a good deal because your miscellaneous debt has been restructured to be included in your mortgage, however, if you tried to sell your home, you would be very unsuccessful! You can't sell a $60,000 home for $90,000! What happens if you have a home emergency?

In conclusion, you may be making some money, but you can't open your eyes and see that your “financial advising” may be ill-advised. You come on here claiming that Primerica reps make all of this money helping families, but typing that is just as anecdotal as you claim our comments are. I can say for Jim (from GA), that he was the only person that tried to back his comments up with some form of research (but he also isn't a Primerica Rep). I don't care if you negate the facts, I don't lose any sleep behind it. You can accept them or reject them; that's up to you!

Jennifer..let's say that you are a 35 year old single Mom in need of insurance. You want $250,000 and you're a non-smoker in good health.

Do you want someone giving you a sales pitch designed to get you to buy a policy for $367 a year, or would you prefer an agent who will seek out any one of the 3-4 dozen A+ or higher rated companies that would charge you anywhere from a low of $187 per year to a high of $230?

If you want to refinance do you want to pay 6.50% interest and 1 point or 7.00% and 2 points while being fed a line about how bi-weekly payment plans will shorten you loan length by 10 years without mentioning you can get bi-weekly elsewhere or just add $83.33 to your $1000 payment to do the same thing.

Thats what the "OPPORTUNITY" does...you sell high
priced products to the people who most need someone who will research the market for them and give them the best deal. They call that helping people. I call it cynical. You want to be cynical like primerica...fork over you $199 and go to it.

Jennifer,

If you want to get accurate information. Here is the best thing you could do to find the right information on ANY company. Any website like ripoff, or buster site, is going to merely say things from people without credibility. If you go to the company's site you are going to come accross stuff that is company based. The company also publishes the negative stuff that credible sources say about them (It's law that they have to).

So the best thing to do is to search out credible sources. Here is a few:

Success Magazine July 2005 issue, AM Bests magazine "Bests Review January 2005 issue, Forbes Magazine March and April Issue 2003 2004 2005, Smart Money Magazine December 1999 issue, American Executive Magazine May 2005 issue.

There are also a ton of websites that you can seek out that are totally neutral such as this particular artical from The Wall Street Journal
I have pasted the link to it below, you could probably also go to The Wall Street Journal Website and ping "PRIMERICA" or "CITIGROUP"

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/17/business/17PLAC.html?ei=5007&en=683d783051115d87&ex=1373774400&adxnnl=1&partner=USERLAND&adxnnlx=1113711061-rhc5e9KRDsNLrKzMZyVygw

You can also look up several books that have been bublished that mention the good things that Primerica does: Here are a few:

David Bach a former employee of Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley wrote a book called "Start Late Finish Rich" which references Primerica/Citigroup. Robert Kiyosaki wrote a book called "Rich dad, Poor dad" which references all of the things that Primerica/Citigroup teaches people. George Boelcke wrote a book called "It's Your Money! Tools, Tips and Trick to Borrow Smarter and Pay it Off Quicker" which references the good things that Primerica/Citigroup does. Dr. Dennis Cauvier, and Alan Lysaught wrote a book called "The ABC's of Making Money" which reference the good things about Primerica/Citigroup. Bruce Sankin wrote a book "What All Stock And Mutual Fund Investors Should Know" which references Primerica and how they help bring that knowledge to everyone.

Just to help you out a little bit. Also you can read pretty much any information from any financial professional, like suze orman for instance. She raves about the same things that Primerica teaches all the time both in her books as well as on her show. Or you can go to a financial planner, and compare information that they tell you with what Primericahas suggested, the only thing is that financial planners typically charge anywhere from $500 to $2000 for a consultation with them.

Hope that helps.

Wow, All I have to say is that ppl are so darn quick to jump to conclusions and criticize.I bet the people who post negative things about Primerica lead a very negative lifestyle, the complain and complain, but they never do anything to succeed. Those ppl ("Jay") who said negative things about Primerica are probably not very happy with their lives right now they have no goals and they have no desire, this is what primerica teaches you to have goals and to have the desire nescessary to achieve these goals. Primerica is a wonderful opportunity filled with many wonderful people on a great mission. Oh and did I mention Primerica is not for everybody, it is not for people who are negative and have no goals in life and do not allow themselves to look into an opportunity of a lifetime.

I just wanted to point out that in my post I was in no way saying that I was interested in joining Primerica or in purchasing any of their products. I was merely pointing out that the google search did not give any great answers as the other poster indicated it would.

Believe me, I have read plenty about Primerica. I have been involved in a number of direct sales companies, and researched many more in my quest to make more money so that I, as a single mom of 2, can support my family. I have found that the majority of these companies, although not all ripoffs, most of them will not make you any money, as you lose more money trying to promote your business than you can make in comissions.

It just makes me ill to see a company like this selling false hope to people who are in a financial bind, and hoping to increase their income. Sure, some Primericans probably are making money, but the whole system is flawed, and I won't even go into the products. I am not one who knows a lot about finance, interest rates and insurance, but I have seen plenty of rebuttals on this site where folks have broken down the pros and cons of the smart loan, and other primerica products to see that it isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

In addition, I take huge issue with the fact that so many on this site that reported were misled into thinking they were interviewing for a JOB, not a BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY.

Believe me, I won't be spending $199 to alienate my friends and family trying to make a buck. I won't pry people for their personal financial information (which, of most people I know, including my family, are very private about their financial matters, and are not going to share these details with anyone outside of a legitimate, reputable bank, insurance office or accountant). I will choose, instead, to remain at my job that pays a somewhat decent salary and provides the health benefits I need for my children. I may never get rich with my J.O.B. (as you MLM people so affectionately like to call it) but at least I can feel good about myself knowing I put in an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. I can know that in the services that I provide (teaching children) I truly am helping people, not saying that I am helping them while trying to sell them useless products so that I can make a buck.

I have to say, also, that in my quest for finding ways to make more income, it continues to floor me what some of theses companies will say to get people sucked in.

Hello, my nam is Steve and I live in Massachusetts. First of all I would just like to say that all reps of Primerica are independent business owners and have to file a 1099 schedule A for there taxes. It is not Primericas problem for who does that or not.

Second, the company pays you relativeley well when you do the work. This business is not for everyone! I am sure there have been many people unsuccessfull in Primerica. So what. Those that stay consistant will be succesfull. Primerica never promises that you will be a millionare, they never even promise that you will make $1. What they do show you is the opportunity of making part-time or full-time money. They train you and encourage you to grow all the time. They get you licensed in insurance and they reimburse you when you pass the exam!

Third, my Father in-law got me interested in Primerica.
He has only been with the company for 5 months, and has allready been promoted to District Leader, has 3 ACTIVE people under him and has seen 5 or 6 checks for over $1000! All this just woking part-time. Meanwhile he still works his full time job which he would like to leave soon. Anybody tht would leave there full time job right away is not too smart. Give it some time!

Fourth, nobody claims to be financial experts right off the bat. All COMMITTED reps are licensed in lending, insurance, and many in securities. We abide by the laws and do not claim to know things if we are not properly licensed. The system is set up where all the rep does is collect the information and put it in to the computer and the computer makes the Financial Needs Analysis itself. All we have to do is present the data and give them the Primerica Solution! And if you were to talk to my upline and rvp you would know you are talking to an expert!

Remember, just because you or anybody else were not succesfull in conducting your own business with Primerica, or even if you just had a bad experience does not mean its bad. Some people grow up to be coal miners, policemen, firefighters, actors, the list could go on, everybody does not excel the same or even get paid the same. This is my rebuttal on peoples comments.

It appears you're pretty good at spinning fairy tales.

Quoting:

"First of all I would just like to say that all reps of Primerica are independent business owners and have to file a 1099 schedule A for there taxes. It is not Primericas problem for who does that or not."

Here's what your coworker, Ron (from Bonita, CA) says about that:

"Actually, RVPs CAN qualify for CONTRACTUAL ownership of their businesses. Many, many of them have done so. Your point is that Primerica Reps are loosely told that they own their own business, and that is a misrepresentation. Technically, they don't own their business in the traditional sense, until they can qualify for the contractual award."

In plain English, Stephen, you're misrepresenting and if you have an issue with that, take it up with Ron.

"I am sure there have been many people unsuccessfull in Primerica." Over 100,000 agents leave every year.

"He has only been with the company for 5 months, and has allready been promoted to District Leader, has 3 ACTIVE people under him and has seen 5 or 6 checks for over $1000!" Great BS. Care to document this or should I even bother to hold my breath.

"Meanwhile he still works his full time job which he would like to leave soon." He's been promoted to District Leader and he still can't leave his full-time job. My oh my.

"Fourth, nobody claims to be financial experts right off the bat." But that's what consumers need, otherwise why bother with Crimerica?

"The system is set up where all the rep does is collect the information and put it in to the computer and the computer makes the Financial Needs Analysis itself. All we have to do is present the data and give them the Primerica Solution!" Two points on this:

First I wouldn't trust my future to a machine nor a computer.

Second why bother having an agent if it can all be
handled through the computer?

Let me remind people and let visitors know that the average agent makes less than $6,000 a year in commission. If you check further on Crimerica, the top people, its executives/ officers, have never started off as agents who are the ones who make the real money (and have the power). Anybody who disagrees with this I again issue my challenge to come up with the names of 12 executives and/or officers who have started off as agents with Crimerica and I'll say it again that Crimerica is a pyramid-schemed, fraudulent company who send shills such as Stephen who's doing a ridiculous job of trying to mislead people on this site which
is designed to help victims.

So Stephen why not prepare a pamphlet to distribute at the next Crimerica meeting to let the newbies what they're really in for?

I have posted on this site before about my own bad experiences about Primerica so I have no reason to lie about this.

John and Brett are INDEED 2 separate people. I have had both of them in my house while I was still living in Ohio. I actually worked out of the same office as both of them in Columbus.

As far the mispellings being the same, etc. I have been chatting on the internet for years. I have come across many many people and have read many websites where the same words are mispelled in the same way. Do a google search for the mispelled words and you'll find it's a very common thing. I should note that 20 something aged males are the biggest culprits for this misspelling. Both Brett and John fall into this category.

Whatever your views on Primerica, good or bad, you are speaking the truth as you know it. The truth is the most important thing here. I personally don't feel that Primerica is for me and I do feel that I was cheated in my experience with Primerica. As far as the products go, I can't comment on them. I never bought them and I wasn't able to sell not even one of them during my 10 months with Primerica so I don't know what is or is not the best deal. But with having the truth in mind, I only wanted to say that I know for a fact that John and Brett are two separate people.

Just stating the facts as I know them.

Define for me what someone could do at primerica financial services that would be unethical to get to the top. If you were to file false mortgage applications that would not be unethical but illegal. Slamming people with insurance policies they didn't buy is impossible. And why in gods name would you put your own money in to somebody elses retirement account? And I'm having trouble understanding how 5% of primerica's reps being at the top would cause a glass ceiling for anybody not already there. Entrepreneur Magazine's April 2005 features a column written about Movex, a moving company started by a man living with his parents and having no actual money to start out with. Movex was started during a time of struggling economy in a dormant industry (meaning there was no significant growth) And in this dormant industry this company grew from $3.6 million in revinue in 2003 to $6 in 2004. That right there proves that success can occour without significant advantage or wrongdoing. My numbers are simple. I have yet to get a check from primerica due to my lack of effort thus far. To answer your question about how a rep outperforms an already outstanding performer. You talk to more people, you understand your product/service as well as possible, you pay attention to your recruits and their needs to succeed, you pay attention to your clientel and their needs for financial consultation. The end result is that your hypothesis is nothing but a hypothesis. The entrepreneurial spirit is strong among the active reps of primerica financial services and your filing a ripoff report based on cynicism (meaning you know only cost and not value) is nothing more than a criticism on people in america having the ability to dream of making the lives of themselfs and others around them better. I myself have seen the lifes of those in my upline change before my eyes as they participated in attaining their licences, doing business, and making goals to do even better. These examples are of people who have not only changed their financial status but their whole outlook on life. Their world is better because they found something worthwhile to do with their time. They are not people I heard of, or friends of friends of uncles cousins. They are my best friends, people I grew up with. And my reason for being a rep now. What exactly are your grading credentials? I for one give myself an f. I have been in for over 6 months and have yet to so much as schedule my life insurance exam. But that is a shame on me, not primerica. I in return invite you to share your wealth building expertise. I find only the wealthy worthy of judging a system to be good or not. If only the advice of the rich can make you rich what will the advice of the poor make you? When franchises were first introduced they were nearly outlawed. And now are the most common form of business. And was equally as heavily criticised as multi level/direct marketing is today. My final comments are that the ship doesn't turn back. Once it sets sail it's gone.

Yolanda,

I accept the word of the EDitorial staff as final as
they're able to check the IP nos.

After reading about the company on this website, I told Primerica I wasn't interested because of what I had read and that I didn't want to recruit. Here is their answer to me.

We make our $ the same way as the rest of the industry, if you help a client in any of our product lines (mortgages, securities, Long Term Care, Legal protection, annuities, debt consolidation, or insurance) you are compensated. If you want to develop an agency of your own, you have that option and obviously Citigroup pays a premium to that person
since they are in a leadership role. Same as the rest of the industry or corporate America. Only difference is Primerica allows you to decide what size business you want to have and
increases your compensation accordingly. I don't get paid to recruit, only return I get on a recruit is if I invest the time and energy to teach them our business and they get
licensed and help people. I worked for 2+ years part-time helping families 1 by 1. Now I focus most of my efforts on training additional reps so I can help far more people even if it's indirectly. In addition if you don't have the
character qualities and integrity that I'm looking for I won't recruit you anyways, because the cost is way to high for me because of the time I will pour into mentoring and
developing you. If you have additional concerns I'd be happy to meet with you on Friday.

Sincerely,

I haven't been on here for a while now; but I see nothing has changed. Still the same Primerica reps that can't see the forest for the trees; don't have a clue; don't take the time to read; or do any worth while research, etc.

Clint I have written extensive reports conerning Primerica and myself. Because you've failed to read; I will give you an opportunity to read this short rebuttal to your comments--namely the comments toward my financial situation.

Age:

25

Education:

B.B.A. in Finance

CFM/CMA

Net Worth:

$1.434 million (approximately)
(from assets)

Source:

Real Estate Investing, Investments

Income:

$250K/per year (gross)

I don't give a ____ what you think about my grading credentials, I have attained above and beyond the success of the average Primerica RVP and I AM helping individuals who are driven and educated along the way. HOW YOU SAY, well believe me it's not by selling them a pyramid scheme!

As a matter of fact; I'm a firm believer of "It's not how you start, it's how you finish"! However; if you start with a bad plan, you'll probably finish that way if you don't fix the plan.

The rest of my reports refuted your comments before you even wrote them.

Nothing further...

Do you honestly think I have the time to site and read all the babble on this one listing of 500 out there? I'm sure your earnings speak for themself, however that does not change the fact you are stating a hypothesis as fact. When the fact remains you have nothing than a hypothesis. Which is defined as follows:

hy?poth?e?sis

n. pl. hy?poth?e?ses (-sz)

1. A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation.

2. Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption.

3. The antecedent of a conditional statement.

Take special note to the end of #2. And assumption. A more interesting perspective on the term would be if you took a theory (which it's self is unproven scientifically) and cut out all supporting evidence... viola! You end up with a nice lightweight hypothesis! Better known as an educated guess. As I am well aware of the fact that you are educated that still doesn't account for lack of investigation.

My question is what is in it for you? Nothing is free, especially not information. If you are in fact extending effort to "misinformed people" then what would then be the exceptional alternative? If in fact your credential claims are true I'm sure everyone that reads your posts would be happy to follow your advice, myself included. Don't forget the liability on advice from accredited investors to non-accredited. Thats one thing everyone forgets about opportunities for new entrepreneurs, they aren't legally allowed to get in to the true high yields yet.

So where else does one begin?

Your rebuttal has already been refuted; if you would have read the report (or just my responses) you would understand the reasoning behind the economic theories that ARE used in society to predict financial activity. That's the basis of finance; using theories and principles to predict future values. Come on that is not hard to grasp.

You know what Clint; I didn't use some masterful, complex plan to attain the wealth that I have now. My advice to people is, find a legitimate plan and stick to it, balls to the wall. I came to this place because I was originally told that this was a real estate gig. Once I got there, they told me that it was a financial services gig, I really don't care to keep telling this story, but from what I experienced at Primerica, I felt the system wasn't built to help the recruits. Like I said before, I didn't need Primerica, but I was looking to use it for my clients.

I searched and found this site, then shared my experience. What troubled me was that individuals would come on the site and try to bash you because you had a negative experience with Primerica. That's my problem! So I made it my business to spread the truth about this company. The truth being, Primerica is registered with dsa.org a MLM association. It was not told to anyone that this was a MLM business; it's supposed to be a financial services company, but that's only its guise. That's not the only truth, but you would definitely have to read my reports to find others.

Look Clint, I don't care how you feel about me or Primerica. Why would I give you financial advice over the internet in a message board and I don't even know your financial situation. Although I have a finance degree, I am not a financial advisor, I am an accountant (hence the CFM/CMA). You do what makes you happy, because I'm doing what makes me happy and making out pretty good.

I can see the perspective of being on the recieving end of an attempt to sucker someone in... or lack of understanding someone's own system to call a horse an ox. More or less my message isn't only directed at your comments, it's also yet another rebuttal so people investigating can get a full glimpse of the system they are looking at. My comments don't only go out to onlookers they are also directed at all people in the mlm world. It irritates the hell out of me getting invited to "job interviews" that are actually mlm. Being someone thats open minded about mlm even if I liked the company I wouldn't sign up under that rep.

I'll clearly state, primerica isn't for everyone. If you don't have the drive to compete against others, and the will to do so in spite of possible lack of results then not only is primerica not for you but the business world all together isn't. Surely even someone coming from the other (meaning the successful end of the market) would have to aggree that jobs are for those that don't want to risk for the possibility of no gain or even loss. And that is not my way of saying those who don't do primerica are only suited for jobs.

My point being that every aspect of our economy actually needs to be there. We still need people to work jobs, we still need people doing mlm trying to do "revolutionary" "new" things in marketing, we will always need business owners and lawyers. The fact that something is difficult to do doesn't make it impossible. For too long americans have been losing their sense of adventure and have become content with that which is just handed over without a fuss. Hence the need for financial services (to which by my count so far there are 3 others just like primerica doing the same thing).

The country is in fact in debt as a whole. People are spending far more than the are earning and/or saving. I am basically here saying that the solution isn't finding the small flaws in the systems that are being built. The solution lies in building new systems with fewer flaws than the ones in place. Unless someone already has the perfect system that can cater all the way from upper class tax sheltering, to lower class income, all the way over to solving the worst problems there are.... The middle class debt to income ratio. Since nobody seems to have such a solution the griping gets nobody anywhere.

My name is Nate and I've been w/ the company for about 4 yrs. I work at the home office 8-5 m-f. The selling side about 5 months. I started in nov. of 05'. I'm strictly part time now. I will start off first by saying THIS BUSINESS IS NOT FOR EVERYONE.

1. Please understand this isn't a pyramid. This is a TRUE definition of a pyramid:

Pyramid schemes are illegal scams in which participants invest a large amount of money in exchange for the promise of receiving profits by recruiting additional participants to make a similar investment. Pyramid promoters sometimes try to make their schemes resemble multilevel marketing methods by introducing a product line. However, little or no effort is made to actually market the products to consumers. Instead, compensation is paid for recruiting.

Pay attention to the last 2 sentences. We have close to 1 billion dollars in term life insurance IN FORCE! It's not like we're just getting people involved and them not doing anything. Yes, a lot of people quit, not b/c they system doesn't work but they wont' work THE SYSTEM. Most people try to overcomplicate this business. It's quite easy, actually. I don't know the numbers on investments or smart solutions, so I'm not going to put any #'s out there, but i'm sure if they're anything like our term #'s we're doing well.

When you "recruit" someone into the business the $199 is a BACKGROUND CHECK! That does NOT MEAN you will get ANY AMOUNT OF MONEY. It simply allows US (primerica) to make sure YOU ARE NOT A CRIMINAL. Anyone that doesn't pass the background check will not work for the company. Also, if you go on a certain # of appts. (usually w/ friends or family to SHOW THEM what you do) that money will be refunded. It's a scholarship program, if you will. To make 199 in this business is very easy. EVERYONE needs life insurance, IMO. You must protect your most important asset. YOU! Some may disagree, that's fine.

Some of the stories disappoint me. EVERY COMPANY EVER MADE has rotten apples. In a perfect world we would have agents following the compliance guidelines all day/everyday, but we don't live in a perfect world. Some people insist on learning the hard way, and primerica is very diligent w/ dealing w/ misconduct, How do I know this? I work at the home OFFICE. In fact, I'm involved a great deal w/ how to handle certain misconduct. Unfortunately, we can't catch everybody. Again, we're not perfect, no company is.

About compensation. YOU GET WHAT YOU WORK FOR! This company has no free rides. Unlike "corporate america" where you get lazy people making more money than you b/c they've "been there longer" or have "seniority". It's B/S man. Primerica is a system to allow you to get equal compensation for equal efforts. Going back to the pyramid thing. If you have an open mind you'll get this, if not, i'm sure you'll try to find some flaw, but I guarantee you, most will agree. I get this A LOT when talking to people about the business. "oh it's a pyramid etc" i don't want to work for someone at the top whos making all the money. Well, ANY and EVERY COMPANY OR JOB has SOMEONE AT THE TOP making the money. FOR ex..

1. customer serv rep. entry level
2. they have a manager, coordinator, coach etc...
3. a director, someone over all managers and below
4. a vp
5. a president
5. an owner/ceo/cfo etc...

THAT IS A PYRAMID TOO! The owner makes money OFF EVERY PERSON UNDER HIM. Why? B/C if he didn't have someone running the business HE/SHE MAKES NO MONEY. It's that simple. The only difference w/ this and primerica or any other MLM is that you're paid on commission and not "guaranteed" a paycheck, which is another misconception. In working w/ the business i'm so surprised at how many people think that they're job is friggin' bulletproof. Ask the 10k bellsouth employees who have been working in downtown atlanta that question who've been there 27 + years who just found out they'll all be unemployed within the next 2yrs. Primerica is the solution for people who are sick and tired of being sick and tired w/ their b/s corporate jobs. people who are fed up for workign for someone whom doesn't appreciate them. Some might say "well that's life" and choose to give up on their dreams. That's fine. I'm not here to judge, but i'll be d@mned if I work 8-5 til' I'm 65. I want to own a business and be wealthy and help others do the same.

It's sad most of you had a bad experience w/ our company, again, I can't speak for everyone, only myself. Primerica has given a single 26yr old like me a chance to do something special by helping people GET OUT OF DEBT and get paid for it. Will I be one of the 50 + millionaires? I hope so, if not, hey at LEAST I gave it a shot. As opposed to just "sucking it up" and let others dictate my income. Most people whom are just bashing the company and making decisions based on what they read on this website are not the people we're looking for anyway. So, spend your time indulging in your "ripoffreport" website and i'll see you guys at the top. :) have a good day.

The corporate structure given by Nate in his comment is a TOTEM POLE. Its a direct line down. MLMs are pyramid structures.

The best way I can explain the difference is if someone gets a job as a cashier at Wal mart and then they get their buddy on doing the same thing, the first person doesn't get a cut of everything the recruited buddy sells.

The one thing all MLMs have in common is that the prices of what is sold is overpriced to the consumer. It has to be to support the pyramid commission structure.

I was recently in the same situation as most of you, confused and didn't have a clue what i was getting into, however, i signed that paper for the 200 bucks and told the guy that i would call him on whether so submit it if i was for sure gonna do it, i called him the next day and left a message saying i wasnt going to do it, and i still got billed for it, he never answers his phone any more, and he said hed email me about the class, well he never emailed me or anything, so i paid for some processing and a class that i couldnt even get the information about when and where.

Does anyone know what i should do or what i cant do?

Thanks

Matt in Iowa......here are some options;

1.) Call him again and threaten to file a small claims suit against him if he doesn't respond immediately. If he gets a judgement against him on this type of matter and he is securities licensed it will cause him aggravation far in excess of the $200.

2.) Threaten to file a complaint against him with the Iowa Dept of Insurance.

3.) If he is already a primerica dropout (VERY LIKELY) and doesn't care call the primerica home office, ask for the compliance officer, and threaten to file complaints against them with the Iowa Dept of Insurance AND the N.A.S.D.

You can take them into small claims court.

Hi Nate:

When I read your comments, I just shook my head. The number one reason why is because you describe Primerica verbatim in your definition of a pyramid scheme. The only exception is the guise that Primerica offers life insurance and financial services products. In fact; their entire promotion system is set up around success in recruiting and not merely sales production.

The second reason; I have read around five different descriptions of what the $199.00 is for from Primerica reps. INTERESTING!

Third; it seems funny that you are disappointed in the authors of these stories because Primerica presented a horrible package to them whether it is in recruiting, compensation, or the products they market. ALSO INTERESTING! It seems like you're disappointed in the wrong person (or entity). Maybe one day Primerica (and its reps) will step up and take the blame for the rapport they have.

Fourth; there is a HUGE difference between a pyramid scheme and corporate hierarchy. Please stop attempting to equate the two! Supervisors, Managers, Controllers, etc. incomes are NOT contingent upon the success (or lack thereof) of the operational portion of a company. For more information, read my comments above. It is getting ridiculous to here someone make this statement.

Fifth; you sound like the typical, tape-recorder, brainwashed, clueless, misinformed, etc., etc., etc., Primerica jock. We all have had this story read to us before, turn the page!

I have to agree somewhat with the criticts on this matter. You're not building a corporate entity with primerica. If that were the case you'd have some sort of control over the t&c on loans, policies, and such. What you are building is basically a sales team. You can in fact sell your sales team and the office you work out of. Basically selling your rights to hierarchy (pardon misspellings... not in the mood for spell check today) and potential commission checks. I think if we are all upfront an honest about our opportunity and not try to justify calling a horse a duck we'll have fewer dropouts and far fewer criticts.

As you can see, with the amount of effort put forward by honest reps we still have plenty of criticts and victims of abuse of our system. It's ok to say "this isn't the only way to do it but it's a great way". Any successful person will tell you that it's not just the amount of people in your team that will make you successful, but how well they know their product. As independant reps of this company we owe it to the people that are giving us this opportunity a good name in return. As a suggestion to those complaining on here about being falsely led in to a meeting thinking it's for a job... You should report the rep in question to primerica as well. Not to mention the authorities. As a rep I would do the same even if it were my own recruit.

I'd be interested in hearing what Jay's tenants think of him as a landlord. With his gross income of $15,000 per month for 24 units, they're renting at about $625/month. Think they come with a water view?

You don't seem to have a problem lining your pockets with the hard earned money of lower income folks paying rent to you, why do you have such a problem with a company that just might try to help them get out of your slums?

To net this thread out there are 2 guys, for the most part, leading this charge against PFS (Jay and the guy from NB, NJ). There are also a number of folks who have been recruited, but for some reason the opportunity may not have clicked. Since we're in Major League Baseball's preseason I'll use this anaolgy. Is it unfair to the guys in AA and AAA that the major league guys make a higher % of the total dollars baseball pays out each year, or that some players didn't make AA or AAA after try outs? No, you have to earn a spot at the top. PFS is no different in that regard. The difference is that there aren't only 150 top spots (25 positions times 30 major league teams) to fill in the PFS big leagues.

To follow up on another poster's reply, the $199 covers the training to get you licensed. It is not a source of income for the company.

Life's not a dress rehearsal. I pay more in taxes, not from Primerica but I've paid my $199 and am looking at the business to reduce my travel, than Jay makes in a year. To listen to him rant and lecture is tedious.

Whether you like to hear it or not, PFS is an example of what makes America great. Everyone has the same opportunity, its what you make of it that counts.