• Report: #5080

Complaint Review: Auto Dealers

  • Submitted: Thu, May 03, 2001
  • Updated: Mon, January 21, 2013

  • Reported By:Tempe Arizona
Auto Dealers
Nationwide U.S.A.

Cardone Enterprises, HPR Solutions - William Hamlin, & Joe Verde Sales And Management Training ..*teaching car dealers sales staff on how to take your money. *EDitor's Comments

*General Comment: You should be ashamed

*Consumer Comment: Incorrect Statements

*General Comment: All I See Is Negativity By The Editor Here

*General Comment: Ex Employee Of A K.. dealership

*Consumer Comment: Not all Auto Dealers are corrupt

*Consumer Comment: From a dealer of 14 years...

*Consumer Comment: Don't lump Joe Verde in with these other companies

*UPDATE Employee: Another Car Salesman trying a more honest approach...

*Consumer Comment: I am a Sales Manager and I have made lots of money for the owner of my Dealership

*Consumer Comment: To the Honest Car Salesman Steven.

*Consumer Comment: Your nuts

*Consumer Comment: Your nuts

*Consumer Comment: Your nuts

*Consumer Comment: It never ceases to amaze me....

*Consumer Comment: IS PROFIT A DIRTY WORD?

*Consumer Comment: IS PROFIT A DIRTY WORD?

*Consumer Comment: IS PROFIT A DIRTY WORD?

*Consumer Comment: IS PROFIT A DIRTY WORD?

*Consumer Comment: Talk about a rip-off

*UPDATE Employee: Car Dealership Ripp Offs?

*Consumer Suggestion: 7000 upside down

*Consumer Suggestion: more people that like the Rip Off Report then people that hate it

*Consumer Comment: Who the real ripoff artists are...

*Consumer Comment: Management is the problem

*Consumer Comment: out of hand, dealer is going to make a profiit, or he will not stay in business

*Consumer Suggestion: there is a black book

*Consumer Suggestion: there is a black book

*Consumer Suggestion: there is a black book

*Consumer Suggestion: Black Book anyone? dealers paying about 1/3 of the price they were charging

*Consumer Suggestion: Black Book anyone? dealers paying about 1/3 of the price they were charging

*Consumer Suggestion: Black Book anyone? dealers paying about 1/3 of the price they were charging

*Consumer Suggestion: Black Book anyone? dealers paying about 1/3 of the price they were charging

*Consumer Suggestion: tricks in the car bussiness are a lot trickier than anything you listed, and most people are incapable of understanding

*Consumer Suggestion: No regrets here... I just ended my career in the car buisness and I have not one single regret

*Consumer Suggestion: Why arrange your own financing, in most cases you hurt yourself.

*Consumer Suggestion: Extended service agreements. If these are from the original manufacturer then it is a safe

*Consumer Suggestion: Rare Positive Experience

*Consumer Suggestion: How not to get Riped-off

*Consumer Comment: Because of deceptive & unfair practices of F&I managers & their salesmen it is risky just visiting the local dealership.

*Consumer Comment: The only time you are ripped off is if you do not get the product for a price that you agree on.

*Consumer Comment: The only time you are ripped off is if you do not get the product for a price that you agree on.

*Consumer Comment: The only time you are ripped off is if you do not get the product for a price that you agree on.

*UPDATE Employee: salespeople who constantly lie are dying off like dinosaurs

*Consumer Comment: congratulations, selling new cars and making money on the naievty of a minority

*Consumer Comment: Reality vs Perspective

*Consumer Comment: Why Salespeople Lie

*Consumer Suggestion: Hey Robert who might be a "F&I Clown" chew on this!

*Consumer Comment: Profit is not a dirty word

*Consumer Comment: Profit is not a dirty word

*Consumer Comment: Profit is not a dirty word

*Consumer Comment: Profit is not a dirty word

*Consumer Comment: ITS ALL TRUE FOLKS!

*Consumer Comment: This is all so SILLY

*Consumer Suggestion: Get the facts first...

*Consumer Comment: Car dealers have EARNED their bad reputation. Auto sales is the most CORRUPT retail sales market. I have NEVER met an honest car salesman.

*Consumer Suggestion: David - let's chat about the difference ..The mortgage industry does not do "Spot Deliveries"

*Consumer Comment: Pay for great service ..Wow. It really looks that there is a definite bias against Dealers here.

*Consumer Suggestion: Check out all of these web sites, How to take your money ..the trainers BS!

*Consumer Suggestion: I don't get it!

*Consumer Comment: What people really feel.

*Consumer Comment: You must have paid too much

*Consumer Suggestion: Untrained Salespeople

*0: EDitor's Comment ... Yes Jeff, ..I find it hard to believe, you just can't get to your position unless you've screwed your share of customers

*Consumer Comment: NOT ALL CAR DEALERSHIPS ARE THE SAME.....

*0: EDitor's comment to the above, Chris, you should be insulted.

*Consumer Suggestion: letter to the editor

*0: EDitor's Response to the Above Comment

*Consumer Comment: In re: Fire all the Salesmen

*0: EDitor's Response to the Simpleton Above

*Consumer Comment: Who's taking my money?

*0: EDitor's Opinion: ..Here's an idea. Let's fire all the sales staff .. And, Auto Dealers, stop misrepresenting Demo vehicles as new

*Consumer Comment: In re: Auto Sales Trainers ...We are not all liars and thieves

*Consumer Comment: How to avoid being ripped off..

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Cardone Enterprises, HPR Solutions - William Hamlin, & Joe Verde Sales And Management Training ..teaching car dealers sales staff on how to take your money.

At badbusinessbureau.com we try to inform the consumer of every kind of deception we find. We know that when you go to a car dealer that you better know what you are doing or you will get taken for a costly ride when buying a new or used car.

"Ever wonder who teaches car salesmen and women how to make more money? Go to www.simonltd.com and read what they can teach the car dealer's sales staff.

These web sites say they teach dealer's sales staff how to make more money. In our opinion they teach car dealers sales staff, car dealer's sales managers and finance managers on HOW TO TAKE MORE OF THE BUYER'S money then needed to sell a car.

Posted below is a small list of some of the car dealers that pay this company money to educate their sales staff, Finance managers and dealer managers. This is a list that is on the www.simonltd.com web site. In our opinion, you should be very careful when going to this list of car dealers if I where looking for a new or used car. Read this list real carefully.

One company says that their software, training, and marketing clients have numbered in the hundreds. Are you one of our clients? If not, you should be! Dealers across the country are realizing the power of HPR Solution's philosophy of success.

And here is the list. Are any of these in your state? Read this list real careful

Thomas-Hill Auto Cntr-East Tennessee Nissan-Miller Auto Plaza-Victory Ford-East Tennessee ChyPlyDodJeep-Victory Honda--State Motors-Piedmont Chrysler Plymouth-Parks Chevrolet Inc.-Knauz Motor Sales-Chaisson Motor Cars-Rimrock Pontiac Cadillac GMC-Diehl Toyota Bernard Chevrolet-Isuzu Burns Ford Mercury-Pacific Coast Realty-Patriot Automotive-Cable Dahmer Chevrolet-Acura of Augusta-Galloway Ford-Sisk Auto Mall-Folsom Lake Ford-Raymond Chevrolet-Oldsmobile -Lawrence Hall Chevrolet-Kelly Chevrolet Cadillac Oldsmobile-Lou Grubb-Arrowhead-Novato Ford-Bowen Oldsmobile GMC Mazda-Clements Chevrolet-Cadillac-Subaru-Buckhannon Auto Mall-Krieger Chevrolet Oldsmobile, Inc.-ABC Nissan-Advantage Ford-Advantage Motorcars-Al Serra Chevrolet-Al Smith Buick Dodge Mazda-Al West Chrysler Nissan-Alexandria Toyota-Alford Motors-Anderson Toyota-Andrews County Ford Mercury-Andy Jones Mazda Isuzu Suzuki-Andy Mohr Buick Pontiac GMC-Andy Mohr Chevrolet Buick-Andy Mohr Ford Sales-Aurora Chrysler Dodge Jeep-AutoNation Chrysler-AutoNation Chrysler Jeep-Autowest Dodge

Now you know who teaches car salesman and women how to make money. There are so many more companies that do this. In our opinion we feel that they teach car salesmen and women HOW TO BECOME MONEY TAKERS and not money MAKERS.

www.grantcardone.com and www.joeverde.com are companies that provide the same service.

Auto Buyers Advocate
badbusinessbureau.com

This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 05/03/2001 12:00 AM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Auto-Dealers/nationwide/Cardone-Enterprises-HPR-Solutions-William-Hamlin-Joe-Verde-Sales-And-Management-Trai-5080. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.

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Updates & Rebuttals

#1 General Comment

You should be ashamed

AUTHOR: Dave - (USA)

This is absolutely ridiculous! I have never read so much garbage in my life. If anyone wants to become a professional in his/her career, the idea is to learn as much as you can and hone your skills. If you want to be a Professional Football Player, you practice practice practice. Same thing goes with being a Product Specialist. To all these poor poor souls that feel they have been ripped off, due to superior word tracks and proper questioning, I give you this. While Nancy Regan said it best, " Just say no!" I don't care how good a sales person is, there are no magical tricks to stop a person from declining a product or service.

I will leave you with this...The only people who can sell products are the people who own them. I can not sell you anything..All I can do is assist you in your purchase and make it as PROFFITABLE AS I POSSIBLY CAN!

Thanks Joe Verde!

Hahaha

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#2 Consumer Comment

Incorrect Statements

AUTHOR: abbyjm2012 - ()

I would like to start off by saying that these websites and training materials are not meant to teach salesman, finance managers or sales managers how to rip off customers. I am an avid user of Joe Verde Training Network and do not believe that I am learning how to rip people off. I am learning how to hold more gross in the vehicles. How to show that the vehicle is really worth what the customer is paying. I am learning the proper way to help a customer choose the vehicle they want. Most importantly, I have learned how to do my JOB correctly and effectively. You don't go to the grocery store and ask for a discount on their Apple's, but why do you feel it's okay to ask for a discount on something I am selling that is lower than suggested retail value. Apple's have a very large margin of profit and you're definitely paying more to the farming community than you're paying to the auto community. It's not my fault that we've learned prices are set in any setting but the auto and home business.

I believe this battle is a "let's agree to disagree," as you clearly don't know what you're talking about and I don't have much more time to educate you.

Thanks 

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#3 General Comment

All I See Is Negativity By The Editor Here

AUTHOR: duobiz - (United States of America)

It's interesting that out of all of the comments listed, I can feel the negativity of the editor of this report in rebuttals to comments. Do you not believe in the freedom of others to comment on your article?

Allow me to guess - You are a socialist who believes that all business owners should split profit equally among all employees, even though it was the business lowner who grew the business?

The problem isn't with the men who educate car salesmen, but the editor. Did you get ripped off at a car dealership? The ripoff report was made in order for you to complain about a specific company, service, or product, not on all sales trainers, unless you personally were trained by one & he had unethical practices. But I know Grant Cardone, and in his education, he talks about ethics & says that the customer should become a client & not just a customer. A client is a lifelong buyer of your products. Does not Starbucks and McDonald's have clients, yet they lace their products with chemicals that can be deadly. So you bought a car by a bad dealer, well, then you bought the car from that dealer, and maybe he was taught by one of these men, but you are not aware of their training, nor how they are. If I am taught how to sell & I go away with only a portion of what I was taught, and sold a lemon, which is now against the law in California, I would be wrong, not the trainer. The training is only as good as I apply it!
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#4 General Comment

Ex Employee Of A K.. dealership

AUTHOR: EducatingYou - (Canada)

With a history of Sales in the Fencing industry where I had a 95% average of quoting and closing with a 50% deposit I found myself sick from handling pressure treated lumber. I took a year to get better and to get training as a counselor and started a career working with not well off first nations children. My training with NLP was extensive. I was very good at this as well but could only handle the negatives of dwelling in the horrible pasts of the kids for 5 months at a time. How I ended up in auto sales is still a question to me. The fact was I was a car sales man for a little over a month. I sold 3 cars in my first 4 days of work with no training. I in fact was the top salesman for the month. In my short experience I had a sales manager try to steal half of a deal from me. I got it back but my eyes were opened to what low lifes I was working with. I genuinely bonded with my clients and did get them the best prices for their cars. In fact while I was supposed to be gathering trigger information I was discussing how to screw the sales manager out of his power. I didn't have to trick the client into NLP yes answers to things they liked about the car they were driving. Joe Verdi was the training program they used to train their sales people. It took me about half an hour to realize what they are teaching should be illegal. I did it my way focusing my energy on being positive and giving the client the script they needed to use to power their way through the deal with the lying sales manager. I sincerely liked my clients and still maintain communication with most of them now. I quit because the people I worked with had the worst values of any people I have ever worked with... Ever... Do or say anything to make a buck.
I don't know why these trainers who sell their NLP training to dealers for their sales people are not in jail for what they do.
The next time a salesman has you answering yes to his/her questions a couple minutes before you get back to the dealership pull over after you answer the second yes, tell him/her to go take a flying f@ck. And go to the dealership that doesn't try pulling any NLP tricks on you. You will find one if you are lucky.
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#5 Consumer Comment

Not all Auto Dealers are corrupt

AUTHOR: Rob - (U.S.A.)

I have read with interest hundreds of comments about corrupt auto dealers, how they ripoff the public and after working in the retail auto business in sales, management, and Finance, it amazes me how wrong many of these anti-auto dealer and anti-profit for the car dealer, so-called advocates are.

I have a very simple solution to their complaint. Let ALL auto dealers stop negotiating the price of new cars, and have all used car dealers pay average trade and sell at average retail price published in the Kelly Blue Book, or the NADA Price guide. Can you imagine taking the negotiation process out of the car business? Look at Saturn, they've tried this concept.

You think you've paid too much before, try that on for size.

Now, realistically speaking, that will never happen. However, it would take the mystery out of the process. Dealers have to make money, just like any retail operation. When you look at the costs involved to operate a dealership, New or Used, you will see that it is one of the highest of all retail operations.

So when you speak of dealers having to train their sales force, you fail to mention that ALL retail operations that maintain a sales force, does exactly the same thing. In fact, show me one retail sales force that does not receive the same type of sales training. Real Estate, Insurance Companies, Jewelery stores, and even shoe stores do it too. Is it also deceptive when you pay MSRP for your new shoes?

You say auto dealers use deceptive practices, but have you purchased furniture lately? Did you know that the furniture store where you purchased that 1200.00 sofa, probably made more profit than the dealer that sold you that new $25000.00 car you have in your driveway.

Yes there are crooks out there, but they can be found in EVERY sales operation, but when you spread the criticism to the car dealer, don't forget to spread the criticism around a little to the other guys making a lot more money on what they sell. Compare profit margins, then when you complain about the car guy, you might have an argument.
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#6 Consumer Comment

From a dealer of 14 years...

AUTHOR: Reid.g - (U.S.A.)

How much profit is excessive for a dealer? This is a question that I have posed to many people over the years and the answers vary widely. Some think a percentage of invoice is fair, some think a certain dollar amount is fair, and some don't have any clue.

I once bought a truck at an auction for $15,000 that I should have paid $18,000 for (since $18,000 was the true market value). Auction fees and transportation to get the truck to my lot was $500. The reconditioning to put the truck in salable condition was $1,500. Our advertising per car runs about $300 per unit retailed, and overhead is approximately $1,250 per unit retailed. So long story short, my true cost was $18,550. That's what I would have to make in order to break out of the vehicle even.

The same truck (miles, year , equipment, etc) was selling around town for $23,000-$24,000. We ended up retailing the truck for $22,000 and thus made a net profit of $3,450. To many, this profit seems excessive, yet the sales price was much lower than what a customer would have paid for the same vehicle on another lot. In addition, had I paid the $18,000 that I should have in the fist place, I would have made a net profit of nearly $0 by selling it for the same price.

I can cite dozens of example like this one, as well as times that we were in the vehicle too much money and had to take a net loss on the deal. The dealer's profit and whether or not the deal was good are two separate things.

I will be the first to admit that there are scoundrels in the car business. There are scoundrels in every business in this country. I understand how it is an emotional thing for many. Believe me if houses dropped 50% in value within the first 3 years a Realtor would be the most hated salesperson on the planet.

I have been saying for some time now that the information age was the best thing for the car business. Profit margins have shrunk, customer service has increased, and full disclosure is becoming the norm. These are all positives for the consumer. For the most part that is true for the dealers as well. True, profits are way down, but we have to concentrate on long term, fruitful relationships with our customers in order to survive. That to me outweighs the profit, because those relationships mean future sales, and the profit will eventually come.

I disagree with the original post in that these seminars are in some way designed to help salespeople and managers screw the consumer. Every sales business has training to increase sales and profit. To eliminate the environment that make this necessary would mean eliminating competition and negotiation. Eliminating these two things would be harmful to say the least for the consumer. I have attended several of the seminars named in the original post (though not the main one mentioned) and have found them to be centric on making the transaction, enjoyable, efficient, and transparent for the customer. The training also focuses on closing skills, how to increase volume, and how to hold onto as much profit as you can.

Sales seminars are going on right now for your Realtor, your bottled water salesperson, your lawn care consultant, and your cell phone provider and so many more that it is impossible to list. They are all being instructed on how to sell you as much as they can, for as high of a price as they can. It is after all, the American way.
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#7 Consumer Comment

Don't lump Joe Verde in with these other companies

AUTHOR: Dodgedave - (U.S.A.)

I am an automotive salesperson who has worked for a wonderful, honest dealer for the past seven years and have been through the Joe Verde sales training program. Yes, the program does teach salespeople how to sell more cars and make more money (which is the reason most people, no matter what their profession, go to work each morning), but in no way does the program teach deceptive business practices. It does teach better ways to ask questions, better ways to determine customer needs and wants, and how to build value in your product, your dealership, and yourself.

However, the core of the program centers around developing real relationships with your customer the way any professional would, and always providing more than expected. In other words, the program teaches car salespeople how to EARN more money by taking care of people in the right way, and EARNING repeat sales, referral customers, etc. I can only speak for my dealership, but I feel that this training has made it so the purchasing and ownership experience at our dealership is much more comfortable and relaxed than most other places.
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#8 UPDATE Employee

Another Car Salesman trying a more honest approach...

AUTHOR: Brian - (U.S.A.)

I have read every post on this thread and feel compelled to throw in my two cents. First, a little about myself...

I live in Seattle and have been selling new/used cars for three years at a Toyota dealership. I am 33 years old, married for ten years, and a father of a 4 year old son. I have only sold cars for one dealership, and prior to selling cars I was working in the hotel business as a Corporate Sales Manager with Marriott. I made the switch to selling cars from the recommendation of my wife's father who has sold cars for over 25 years and told me that it is a good opportunity to earn more money than I was earning from the hotel industry. I had no aspirations to sell cars, and I was apprehensive of taking a commission-only job as well as inheriting the negative reputation that car salesmen have. I am not the top salesman at my store, but I am in the top 1/3rd. I sell an average of 13 cars per month and my average income has been about $80K per year. I am the sole income provider for my family, and I have no college degrees. I am active in my church and have volunteered my time as a counselor in my church leadership. I'm a chubby white guy with thick-rimmed glasses. I don't drink, I don't gamble, I don't use drugs.

Why am I telling you all this? I want to paint a picture of who I am so you can see me as a "real" person, rather than just a "sales" person. Selling cars does not define my personality or character. I don't wake up in the morning intent on ripping anybody off. If anything, I wake up in the morning praying that I'll be able to pull together another month to take care of my family's needs. While I may not have the top sales in the store, I have maintained a Customer Satisfaction Index (CSI) Score of over 98%. I'm proud of that score. So is my General Sales Manager.

Now that you have a picture of me, let me explain a little about my store. We sell new Toyota and Scion as well as a variety of used vehicles. Currently, we have about 21 sales people employed and sell an average of 200 cars per month. We have been in business for 25 plus years and have a handful of sales people who have been there for 10+ years. We are a "Signature" President's Award Winning dealership, which is based on maintaining an overall Customer Satisfaction Score of 96% or higher. We are not a "liner-closer" store, meaning that we don't have young inexperienced salesmen out on the lot landing the customer on a car and then turning them to someone else to close the deal. We use an "UP" system, meaning that whichever sales person calls the customer first gets the chance to help them. Personally, I'm not a big fan of this system because it results in a mob of salespeople standing outside waiting for customers to pull in, which I think looks tacky and intimidating (which can put the customer on the defensive right away). In addition to walk-in's, we also have an opportunity to get "phone pops" by being the first salesperson to dial the receptionist when she announces a sales call, and we have an Internet Manager who assigns internet leads out to salesmen who have proven themselves effective at putting together accurate quotes, and have strong email and follow-up skills. About 40% of my business comes through Internet Leads, 30% comes through phone-pop's, 20% comes through walk-in's, and 10% through repeat/referral business. My compensation is 25% commission on whatever "gross profit margin" I negotiate in the deal. Gross Profit Margin is defined as the amount I sell the vehicle over dealer invoice (if new) or the amount I sell the vehicle over what we own it for (if used). The store takes $250 off the top of the gross (called a "pack") on all new cars, and $550 off the top of gross on all used cars, before the 25% commission. For example, If I negotiate a $1,000 Gross Profit deal on a new car, the store reduces the gross down to $750, of which I get paid $187.50, before taxes. If the gross profit falls below about $600, then I get paid a minimum commission (or "mini") of $100 regardless of what I sold the car for. In addition to the "commission vouchers," I also get paid a retro-active volume bonus of 5% on all cars sold since the beginning of the month, if I hit a minimum of 13 units sold. Additionally, I am paid a $400 "new car bonus" if I sell a minimum of 7 new cars in the month. Beyond these "standing" bonuses (or "spiffs"), we are also paid weekend incentive spiffs which vary from "first deal of the day pays $40," or "Hat Tricks (selling three cars in one day) pays $150" to "Fast Start Bonuses" such as 10 cars sold by the 15th pays $500. These cash motivators and bonuses are a big part of our pay plan, and can also be the root of some of the pressure customers receive to purchase right away, particularly on a weekend. My store also pays out $100 to the sales person for every 100% satisfied customer survey they receive. For me, this adds up to quite a bit of extra income per year. Occasionally, Toyota Corporate will offer extra cash bonuses (typically $100 - $200) to motivate the sales force to focus on some of the slower-selling vehicles.

My Sales Approach:

My fellow co-workers call me "The Information Specialist," because I take product knowledge seriously. I have achieved "Expert" status in my Certification, and I spend a lot of my downtime learning more about the technology of our cars and our competitive advantages. I feel that customers look to me to be able to answer questions that they need further clarification on about our vehicles - Why would anyone want to buy from me if I can't correctly and confidently answer their questions about the product I represent? In addition to product knowledge, I try to keep abreast of the latest news in the auto industry, and I also keep up on consumer websites/magazines like Consumer Reports, Edmunds.com, KBB.com, etc.

I'm also called the "Be-Back King" because over 60% of my sales each month are from people who came back to me to purchase at a later date. While I'd love to sell all of my customers on their first trip to my dealership, I know it is not the reality. I realize that over 80% of the people I talk to will not buy a car on the first day I meet them. Most of them are gathering information to help them make a decision about what kind of car they want to purchase, and where they want to purchase from. One of the tips my father-in-law gave me when I first started was "you'll meet a lot of people who are just kicking tires, but once they find the right car they'll stop kicking tires." Simple but sage advice. He taught me that initially it's always about the car. "People are coming here to look at the cars, not the salesmen," he said. "But once they have found the right car, then it becomes about finding the right salesman." I spend most of my time on the first meeting with my customer trying to "consult" them about what kind of car they are interested in, rather than trying to "sell" them that day. I try to ask questions to figure out what is important to the customer and where they are at in the buying process, and I try to answer any question that comes my way with honesty and integrity. I know that there are plenty of other dealerships that they can do business with, and I know that they can find a "nice guy" just about anywhere they go. I try to rely on my low-pressure/high-service approach (which I learned in the hotel business) to win them back. I don't send customers away promising the "lowest price in town" or any other shady tactic. I don't try to act "overly chummy" on the first meet. I have not yet earned the right to be "old chums" with my new, just met, customer. I think just being polite and lightly jovial leaves a much better impression.

Here are some of the "scripts" I have developed over time to address some of the common questions I get early on in the process. I like to call them "explanations" more than, because I am really just trying to explain why it's so hard to give a "straight" answer to these questions..

Q. What's Your Best Price?

A. "I'd like to sell it for as much as possible, and you'd like to buy it for as little as possible. That's a given. I'm not trying to brush your question off. In all honesty, it's hard for me to give you a "bottom-line" number because I really have no authority to do that. As your Sales Consultant, I am not one who is actually "selling" you this car. The "Seller" is the guy behind the desk who was hired by the Owner to make those decisions. My job, what I get paid on, is getting the buyer and the seller to reach an agreement. If you feel this is the right car for you, then I'll do my best to make sure you are happy with the deal and are treated fairly."

"What I can tell you is that most new Toyota's carry about an 8% - 9% profit margin between factory invoice and the suggested retail price. I'll be happy to provide you with the invoice information as well as third-party information to help you make an informed offer. I'm willing to be completely transparent through this process."

Q: What is my trade-in worth?

A: "While I am not the Used Car Buyer, and I can't really make you an offer on your trade-in, I am willing to share third-party information with you so you can get a ballpark idea of what it should be worth, and then you can decide whether it would be worth it to trade it in at a wholesale price or just sell it on your own for more money."

Q: What kind of interest rate are you offering?

A: (assuming no special financing rates are running) "Currently Toyota isn't offering any special financing rates on this vehicle. We can check the Toyota Financial website to see what their general rates are, or if you have a bank or credit union that has already pre-approved you, we're more than happy to accept that as well."

Q: What's the payment on this car?

A: "I've learned that a general rule-of thumb is that for every $10,000 you finance, the monthly payment is typically somewhere around $200/month, depending on interest rates, term lengths, etc. So, if you are financing $20,000 - your payment will be closer to $400/month, and if you are financing $30,000 - expect a payment in the $600 range. It's just math."

While I understand that all of these questions are really important, and definitely need to be addressed prior to making a purchase, to ask while still out on the lot kicking tires really puts me into a bit of a bind because half of the answers I have no authority to give and the other half I don't yet have enough information to answer correctly. It gets back to the idea that the first step is to learn about the cars, and then figure out the money stuff after you've narrowed the search down a little.

I always offer a test drive, but I never get pushy if they decline. I just encourage them to try driving the car before they get too deep into the numbers. There's nothing worse than spending weeks or months trying to chase down a "good deal" on a car only to find out that you really don't like the way the car feels or handles, or that you like a completely different car more. What a waste of time for both you and the salesman!

When I do sit down for the negotiation, I try to supply my customer with as much third-party data as possible from various consumer websites on both the new purchase and their trade-in. I want them to feel that I am being fair with them and not trying to rip them off. However, I also make it clear that these are "guides" and that all final numbers are subject to both the buyer and seller reaching an agreement. I also explain from the dealers' perspective we have two primary expenses that we are dealing with; the cost of the merchandise (invoice) and the costs of running our facility. These are separate, but real expenses, and both play a role in determining what is a fair price for both the customer and the store. I explain what Dealer Holdback is, and show them on the invoice how much it adds up to. Then, with all of the numbers out in the open, I ask them if they feel they have enough information to feel confident in making an offer. I promise my customers that I will try to make no more than two trips back and forth with counter-offers. I find that negotiating this way makes it go much more smoothly and takes away a lot of the typical stress and frustrations on both sides of the table.

While I present payments, I let the customer decide where they want the focus of the negotiation to be. Some people are more comfortable saying that they need to be at a certain payment, others are more concerned about getting a discounted price on the car, or getting what they want out of their trade-in. I don't try to direct the customer into a certain path. I just present all of the numbers and simply ask them what they are hoping to accomplish, and remind them that the ball is in their court.

If we reach an agreement, then while the paperwork is being processed, I'll usually let them know that they will be meeting with our finance manager, about how long it will take, and what they are going to be doing: signing legal documents as well as offering additional information on warranties and products that are available for their new car. While my finance managers complain to me that my customers are "too well educated," I find it puts the customer much more at ease when they go in somewhat prepared for what is going to take place. It may cut down on some of their sales, but I find it lowers the tension and anxiety and makes for a more positive experience.

After the finance process is finished, I try to bring the focus back on the car and start going over in more detail how the features and controls work. It's the car they came in for, and I want them to be happy that they bought it. I follow-up a few days later to make sure they are happy with how everything went, and offer to address any concerns, and I continue to follow up periodically afterwards.

This is what I do to earn an honest living. Obviously, I have to be able to make money to survive - and I have a right to. Are their some "stinky" things that take place at my dealership both at the desk and up in finance? Unfortunately, yes. Not all the time, but probably too often. I try my best to protect my customers from these practices by being completely open with them about why we do things the way we do them, helping them understand the process, and where I am coming from. I have never knowingly lied to or cheated a customer. I take responsibility for any mistakes I make (and I do make them), and I try to be a person of honor and put my customers first. One thing I was taught early on was "It's the customers who pay you, not the managers." How true.

As far as these "Sales Trainers" go. Most of them are snake-oil salesmen who are making more money from selling tickets to their seminars than they ever made in car sales. I've gone to most of them once. There were a few clever lines here and there, but for the most part I found them to be "rah-rah" sessions on par with Amway seminars. Because of my product knowledge and my high CSI score, I am often asked to train new hires - my biggest advice is to just be be open, honest, and informative - know what you are talking about when it comes to the vehicles. Offer alternatives when necessary and solutions when appropriate. Most of all, try to come to a mutual understanding of one another's objectives. That's the art of negotiating.
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#9 Consumer Comment

I am a Sales Manager and I have made lots of money for the owner of my Dealership

AUTHOR: Jason - (U.S.A.)

I am a Sales Manager at a High-line Dealership. I have made a very large amount of money selling cars as both a sales person and as a sales manager. I have been through Joe Verde sales training, Grant Cardone sales training and a couple others that weren't mentioned. Here's the thing, I have had sales people now that don't take the time to learn the product, don't take the time to find out what their customer wants and provide their customer with an experience that leaves them wondering why they came to the dealership in the first place.

When I meet these customers, I thank them for coming by. They're easy to recognize, they always have a kid they forgot they have to go pick up or a relative to go get at the airport or gramma is having her leg re-attached or some other polite way of saying we gained nothing by coming here today and we need to leave.

I always wanted to apologize to these people. Untrained salespeople have no plan, provide no information and waste people's time. Sales trainers like these help eliminate turnover in a business full of turnover. The fact is Cardone preaches consultation. They tell you to give everyone figures. The customer who stops by for a quick peak who is 6 months away right up to the customer buying today. They even produce an easy to read worksheet customers can take home with them that is easy to understand. They believe everyone should get all the information they need to make a good decision.

More importantly, they provide salespeople with a plan. Have you ever met a salesperson who doesn't know his product? Bet you didn't buy from him... or the guy who doesn't really know what to do next and keeps running back and forth across the showroom? He doesn't get too many deals either. That's not a tactic, that's a guy who needs help because he doesn't know how to do his job. Poorly trained salespeople are no different than poorly trianed professionals in other fields. They don't succeed.

I have made a great deal of money for the dealers I've worked for. I know my product, get to know my customer, show them the benefit of vehicle, show them why we're the right place to buy a car, and I guide them through a process that is easy and helpful. Then I ask them to buy the car. I ask for all the money the Manufacturer Suggests I sell the car for.

Many of my customers feel that it's worth it to know they will always have me and my team to help them going forward. If they say it's too much I ask them what they thought would be fair and if they'd buy for that number. If we can, we will make the deal. If the next customer comes through the door and offers $1000 more or less, I'll take that too.

It's not a rip-off, my store is typical, we make about 5% on a car. That isn't robbery. We'll take deals at 2% and ask for 7 or 8. It costs like 70 cents to make a pizza, what do you pay for that?

Oh I know, financing and all that stuff, that's where you get it right? Well, here's the kicker. Go to your bank and see what their rate is for a car. If they're at 7.5% and I can get you 6.0%, what do you care that the bank will pay us on whatever I make on the rate they give us? If you can get a better rate, get it and bring it in, there's a reason people don't- our rates are usually better than anything they can get.

Products are about the protection they provide. If you see no value in them, you're not in the minority, but most people who buy things like paint and fabric protection (at a whopping 4-5 hundred) are really buying the warranty. They don't care if the stuff that is applied to the car protects it. They care that if something does happen like sun faded paint, they have a warranty.

My job is to make money, I do that not by lying, fact is I don't know a successful salesperson who does. There's only 3 reason people do or don't buy cars and I tell this to my salespeople. Its either me the machine or the money. Me- did I help them, show them the car, help them understand the difference between features, did they feel understood. The machine- did I help them find the right car? Does it have the features they need, not pie in the sky want, but the things they need in their next car? The money- can they afford it? Does it make sense financially? The guy who doesn't have a plan often never gets to the money part as customers grow bored so they are left to wonder if it was them or the car that turned the customer off.

Y'know what else? I have worked at a Saturn Dealership and done the whole no hassle no haggle thing. Saturn stores make more per car than the rest of us do. People always suggest that one price thing. The only advantage there is you don't have to shop around. Y'know what else? As much as people say they want that, one price thing, everyone comes in to a Saturn Dealership and says, "Can you do any better?" Why does that happen? You get honesty and fairness and everything you could want and it doesn't taste as good as you thought.

Verde and Cardone and the rest of them save you from dopes. They don't create them. They make sure salespeople understand how to do the job without lying, you should go to one of their seminars. Just knowing their names and suggesting they create liars seems irresponsible and I know a couple of Used Car Dealers who could use a guy like that. Let me know if this uneducated bashing of people thing doesn't work out. It's been a long time since the people you're afraid of sold cars.
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#10 Consumer Comment

To the Honest Car Salesman Steven.

AUTHOR: Russ - (U.S.A.)

That was an interesting (and blistering) piece of propaganda you wrote there Steve, my man.For all we know , everything you wrote is true. Yes true,even though roughly 90 percent of all car salesmen I've dealt with were real horse butts after all was said and done.But I'm sure you are in the 10 percent class.

Regardless,I have a few questions about what you wrote,perhaps you can help clarify to me a few of your statements.

Your statement,question,about if a customer is getting a good deal if the vehicle being sold is affordable and sold from someone you know and trust.

My reply.Just because a person can afford the payments on a certain vehicle does'nt mean they did'nt get shafted price wise regardless.So what if they can afford the payments on a $10,000 car if it should'nt sell for more than $6,000 tops.As examples,alot of women,young students,and other customers who know little about vehicles and are taken advantage of price wise.And what difference does it make if the clent "knows" the salesman personally.I "know" one guy who is currently in the slammer for murder.Other than his crime,he was basically trustworthy.

I would also like to know just what exactly a car salesman does when you say you will "take care" of the customers after the sale. I think of doctors,nurses,maybe Red Cross workers who "take care" of people.What noble deeds do you do ? If a persons car breaks down, they can notify the salesperson who sold it to them.The salesperson in turn can tell the customer to take it to the service department to have it fixed and pay the bill in full before it's picked up.Whoopee.The salesman can offer the client a free coffee or soda if the customer comes in to look at another car to possibly buy.The salesman might send a card at Xmas with his own business card enclosed.He might even still be a little friendly towards you if you don't raise a loud legit complaint if the used car you bought turns out to be a lemon within a week or two.

Nevertheless,you claim to have been in the business for 8+ years. I can tell by your canned gungho propaganda statements.You claim to be honest.3 cheers for you.However ,I would hesitate to buy a car from such a rude person who can't even spell better than an 8 year old,for Christ sakes.
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#11 Consumer Comment

Your nuts

AUTHOR: Steven - (U.S.A.)

You know I have been in the automotive business for 8 years, every since I graduated high school. I first sold Porsche and Audi and several other brands that preceeded them.

This notion that the dealer is out to screw anybody is ludicrous, and anyone uneducated enough to think otherwise is just plain ignorant.

I'm a salesmanager, and I got my job because I sold 30+ cars a month for two straight years, but the genious of my success was Joe Verde. He tought me that it isn't a requirement to make a lot of money on a car deal. He said if you properly meet and greet your customers, give them a great presentation and demonstration and help them find the car that best fit their needs, that they will pay fair market value for that automobile.

He also said that the key to being a professional in sales was repeat and referral business, and the only way to get people to be a repeat and referral customer is to treat them with the utmost repect, to address all of their concerns and to rectify anything that was disatisfying to them during the buying process.

FOLLOW UP. I bet you can't remember the salespersons name that sold you your last car. I guarantee you that all of my customers remember me. I have been to over 40 graduations, 20+ weddings and a handfull of funerals, because I am there for my client before, during, and after the sale. I am a professional in my industry, customer service is king. I didn't talk to new customers looking for cars because I took such good care of customer base, they sent me new customers.
JOE VERDE is the best thing that could have ever happened to this business, and maybe if you met a saleman trained by Mr. Verde or anyone on his team, you would have written this article, beause you would have appreciated how helpful that professional was to you during the buying process.

And as far as profit and what a car is worth, a car is worth what someone is willing to pay!! I saw a guy give $135,000 for a 76 all original 36,000 mile cadillac convertible was it a good deal, well lets see isn't a good deal a car that YOU like, at a price that YOU can afford from people that you know and trust that are going to take care of you before and after the sale? I think so. Get a clue feela, I will always train my sales reps with verde. I want them to help the clients, not screw them.
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#12 Consumer Comment

Your nuts

AUTHOR: Steven - (U.S.A.)

You know I have been in the automotive business for 8 years, every since I graduated high school. I first sold Porsche and Audi and several other brands that preceeded them.

This notion that the dealer is out to screw anybody is ludicrous, and anyone uneducated enough to think otherwise is just plain ignorant.

I'm a salesmanager, and I got my job because I sold 30+ cars a month for two straight years, but the genious of my success was Joe Verde. He tought me that it isn't a requirement to make a lot of money on a car deal. He said if you properly meet and greet your customers, give them a great presentation and demonstration and help them find the car that best fit their needs, that they will pay fair market value for that automobile.

He also said that the key to being a professional in sales was repeat and referral business, and the only way to get people to be a repeat and referral customer is to treat them with the utmost repect, to address all of their concerns and to rectify anything that was disatisfying to them during the buying process.

FOLLOW UP. I bet you can't remember the salespersons name that sold you your last car. I guarantee you that all of my customers remember me. I have been to over 40 graduations, 20+ weddings and a handfull of funerals, because I am there for my client before, during, and after the sale. I am a professional in my industry, customer service is king. I didn't talk to new customers looking for cars because I took such good care of customer base, they sent me new customers.
JOE VERDE is the best thing that could have ever happened to this business, and maybe if you met a saleman trained by Mr. Verde or anyone on his team, you would have written this article, beause you would have appreciated how helpful that professional was to you during the buying process.

And as far as profit and what a car is worth, a car is worth what someone is willing to pay!! I saw a guy give $135,000 for a 76 all original 36,000 mile cadillac convertible was it a good deal, well lets see isn't a good deal a car that YOU like, at a price that YOU can afford from people that you know and trust that are going to take care of you before and after the sale? I think so. Get a clue feela, I will always train my sales reps with verde. I want them to help the clients, not screw them.
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#13 Consumer Comment

Your nuts

AUTHOR: Steven - (U.S.A.)

You know I have been in the automotive business for 8 years, every since I graduated high school. I first sold Porsche and Audi and several other brands that preceeded them.

This notion that the dealer is out to screw anybody is ludicrous, and anyone uneducated enough to think otherwise is just plain ignorant.

I'm a salesmanager, and I got my job because I sold 30+ cars a month for two straight years, but the genious of my success was Joe Verde. He tought me that it isn't a requirement to make a lot of money on a car deal. He said if you properly meet and greet your customers, give them a great presentation and demonstration and help them find the car that best fit their needs, that they will pay fair market value for that automobile.

He also said that the key to being a professional in sales was repeat and referral business, and the only way to get people to be a repeat and referral customer is to treat them with the utmost repect, to address all of their concerns and to rectify anything that was disatisfying to them during the buying process.

FOLLOW UP. I bet you can't remember the salespersons name that sold you your last car. I guarantee you that all of my customers remember me. I have been to over 40 graduations, 20+ weddings and a handfull of funerals, because I am there for my client before, during, and after the sale. I am a professional in my industry, customer service is king. I didn't talk to new customers looking for cars because I took such good care of customer base, they sent me new customers.
JOE VERDE is the best thing that could have ever happened to this business, and maybe if you met a saleman trained by Mr. Verde or anyone on his team, you would have written this article, beause you would have appreciated how helpful that professional was to you during the buying process.

And as far as profit and what a car is worth, a car is worth what someone is willing to pay!! I saw a guy give $135,000 for a 76 all original 36,000 mile cadillac convertible was it a good deal, well lets see isn't a good deal a car that YOU like, at a price that YOU can afford from people that you know and trust that are going to take care of you before and after the sale? I think so. Get a clue feela, I will always train my sales reps with verde. I want them to help the clients, not screw them.
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#14 Consumer Comment

It never ceases to amaze me....

AUTHOR: Don - (Canada)

Okay, so I live and sell cars in Ontario, Canada, maybe the laws or whatever are different here but the message is still the same. YES there are dealers that make a practice out of ripping people off. But this isn't the fault of Joe Verde or any other training course. These courses are designed to ensure salespeople are TRAINED. That's it!! I worked as a chef before getting in the car business and believe me, when I was an apprentice I needed to learn how to maximize my skills and organize my time. It made me better at my job and thus I was able to command a higher wage later on down the road. Sales is no different. If I improve my skills as a salesperson, I deserve higher commisions. The only way to do this is to take courses, so what is wrong with that?!?!

On a new car there is anywhere between 6-8% mark-up, now I can say this all day long to EVERY customer that I talk to, but they stil think I'm lying. Yet not one of them will spend $50 extra and look on a website like www.freecarinvoices.com or www.carcostcanada.com to confirm it. Instead they accuse me of being the liar, when they come in and lie to me ALL day long. Retailers are entitled to make a profit, that's the beauty of the capitalist system. What the editor here is suggesting frankly is one step from communism. Bottom line is that I HELP people everyday. It feels good. I have a right to make a living, I won't be ashamed of that. Don't want to get "ripped off"? Then spend 1 hour and do some research. Then buy what you can afford dammit....stop thinking you can buy a $50000 automobile for $250/month. I'm sure you can do simple math!
Example:

You have a budget of $300/mo
The average purchase term is 5 years
$300/mo x 60 months = $18000
Therefore you need a vehicle that is roughly $18000 after taxes, freight, admin and interest. All of those fees are by law(In Ontario anyway) to be provided by the dealer, to the buyer.

Now I ask you...why is that so hard to grasp? If you don't like the car that a particular manufacturer offers in your range DON'T FRIGGIN' BUY IT!! But for the love of God, do you walk into a restaurant and say listen "I want that New York strip steak with all the fixings, but I only want to pay for a ceaser salad!" What do you think they would say? This isn't rocket science.....
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#15 Consumer Comment

IS PROFIT A DIRTY WORD?

AUTHOR: Nilson - (U.S.A.)

I work at a Honda dealership, besides Honda being a consumer driven company...The dealership I work for is driven by customer satisfaction and retention.
We also work in the serving industry...and servers, product specialist, waiters, salespeople, guides and or demonstrators deserve some type of compensation...Right or wrong?
Now a days with all the information available to the public regarding invoice, cost and trade-in value, profit is kept to a minimum-if any!...Even at full list the average markup on a vehicle is $1500-$2500 and $700 of holdback (which is used to pay interest for inventory over 60 days) mark-up is only about 7-11% and its rare to find a fair consumer to pay full list in the auto industry.
So what's the rip-off, whining and complaining about? Oh I know!...
It's the high interest rates, right!....mmmm credit cards now that's high interest even for good and excellent credit ratings!...Just like I tell the customer when they ask about rates...You control the rates with your credit history and worthiness...and again, an average loan is for about 60 months at about 7% interest rate; is that high?
OR DO YOU WANT EVERYTHING FOR FREE?
So who is ripping who off?
Is it the average salesperson sweating their shirts off their backs demonstrating an item as important as a vehicle is to a consumer while receiving attitude and mistrust....?
Or is it advocates as yourself, sour and selfish, complaining about black or white and ripping off the average salespersons livelihood with your ignorant remarks?
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#16 Consumer Comment

IS PROFIT A DIRTY WORD?

AUTHOR: Nilson - (U.S.A.)

I work at a Honda dealership, besides Honda being a consumer driven company...The dealership I work for is driven by customer satisfaction and retention.
We also work in the serving industry...and servers, product specialist, waiters, salespeople, guides and or demonstrators deserve some type of compensation...Right or wrong?
Now a days with all the information available to the public regarding invoice, cost and trade-in value, profit is kept to a minimum-if any!...Even at full list the average markup on a vehicle is $1500-$2500 and $700 of holdback (which is used to pay interest for inventory over 60 days) mark-up is only about 7-11% and its rare to find a fair consumer to pay full list in the auto industry.
So what's the rip-off, whining and complaining about? Oh I know!...
It's the high interest rates, right!....mmmm credit cards now that's high interest even for good and excellent credit ratings!...Just like I tell the customer when they ask about rates...You control the rates with your credit history and worthiness...and again, an average loan is for about 60 months at about 7% interest rate; is that high?
OR DO YOU WANT EVERYTHING FOR FREE?
So who is ripping who off?
Is it the average salesperson sweating their shirts off their backs demonstrating an item as important as a vehicle is to a consumer while receiving attitude and mistrust....?
Or is it advocates as yourself, sour and selfish, complaining about black or white and ripping off the average salespersons livelihood with your ignorant remarks?
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#17 Consumer Comment

IS PROFIT A DIRTY WORD?

AUTHOR: Nilson - (U.S.A.)

I work at a Honda dealership, besides Honda being a consumer driven company...The dealership I work for is driven by customer satisfaction and retention.
We also work in the serving industry...and servers, product specialist, waiters, salespeople, guides and or demonstrators deserve some type of compensation...Right or wrong?
Now a days with all the information available to the public regarding invoice, cost and trade-in value, profit is kept to a minimum-if any!...Even at full list the average markup on a vehicle is $1500-$2500 and $700 of holdback (which is used to pay interest for inventory over 60 days) mark-up is only about 7-11% and its rare to find a fair consumer to pay full list in the auto industry.
So what's the rip-off, whining and complaining about? Oh I know!...
It's the high interest rates, right!....mmmm credit cards now that's high interest even for good and excellent credit ratings!...Just like I tell the customer when they ask about rates...You control the rates with your credit history and worthiness...and again, an average loan is for about 60 months at about 7% interest rate; is that high?
OR DO YOU WANT EVERYTHING FOR FREE?
So who is ripping who off?
Is it the average salesperson sweating their shirts off their backs demonstrating an item as important as a vehicle is to a consumer while receiving attitude and mistrust....?
Or is it advocates as yourself, sour and selfish, complaining about black or white and ripping off the average salespersons livelihood with your ignorant remarks?
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#18 Consumer Comment

IS PROFIT A DIRTY WORD?

AUTHOR: Nilson - (U.S.A.)

I work at a Honda dealership, besides Honda being a consumer driven company...The dealership I work for is driven by customer satisfaction and retention.
We also work in the serving industry...and servers, product specialist, waiters, salespeople, guides and or demonstrators deserve some type of compensation...Right or wrong?
Now a days with all the information available to the public regarding invoice, cost and trade-in value, profit is kept to a minimum-if any!...Even at full list the average markup on a vehicle is $1500-$2500 and $700 of holdback (which is used to pay interest for inventory over 60 days) mark-up is only about 7-11% and its rare to find a fair consumer to pay full list in the auto industry.
So what's the rip-off, whining and complaining about? Oh I know!...
It's the high interest rates, right!....mmmm credit cards now that's high interest even for good and excellent credit ratings!...Just like I tell the customer when they ask about rates...You control the rates with your credit history and worthiness...and again, an average loan is for about 60 months at about 7% interest rate; is that high?
OR DO YOU WANT EVERYTHING FOR FREE?
So who is ripping who off?
Is it the average salesperson sweating their shirts off their backs demonstrating an item as important as a vehicle is to a consumer while receiving attitude and mistrust....?
Or is it advocates as yourself, sour and selfish, complaining about black or white and ripping off the average salespersons livelihood with your ignorant remarks?
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#19 Consumer Comment

Talk about a rip-off

AUTHOR: Dominic - (U.S.A.)

Yes, I do work in the car industry and what most people do not realize is since the internet has about 100 different websites posting the invoice price on cars you cannot make huge profits like back in the day. I'll tell you one thing I would love to know how much the flat screen TV I just bought for $4,000 costs, how come the auto industry is singled out?

One last huge comment!!! If you really want to talk about RIPOFFS those companies that train the automobile industry charge about $5,000 for a 3 day seminar about $1,000 for a singe day seminar and finally I believe the last figure I was qouted was in the area of $2,500 for a cd training collection!!!
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#20 UPDATE Employee

Car Dealership Ripp Offs?

AUTHOR: Davey - (U.S.A.)

You are bashing car salesman? Hello the profit on average that a car deal is around $1,900 dollars (with profit on the vehicle and extended warranty ect....)

Real Estate Mortgage brokers averagely charge over $21,ooo in closing cost on purchases or refinancing.

Do you realize that a dealerships expenses can be:

1) $50,000 a month building rent
2) $15,000 phone bill
3) $70,000 a month advertising
4) $10,000 a month electricity bill
5) Salaries, 410k, commissions
6) $13,000 a month insurance

You don't ask for $500 over invoice on a house do you? Bottom line most people know that a car is the worst investment you can make because it will usually never go up in value.

People do not care!! We want to impess others!! We want to be the first to have that model. Auto dealers have some of the smallest profit margins. Try 600% mark up on Jewelry!! HELLO!!

By the way we help keep the economy going. To stay in business you have to make money. How much money does it really cost for a woman to get a "BOOB" job? Is $7,000 of 2 hours worth of work overcharging?
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#21 Consumer Suggestion

7000 upside down

AUTHOR: Scott - (U.S.A.)

In most cases people are upside down because they bought a car on a long term contract 60-72-84 months and then they go out and trade it in just a year or two, in which case they owe more thatn the car is worth and it has to be carried over to the new car, and it is put in a long term contract. The consumer then goes and tries to trade that car in a year or two and guess what, you now owe a whole lot more thatn the car is worth.

Is this the dealers fault. No you choose the payment and the length of the contract. You have went through two cars or more in a very short period of time without paying any of them off. When you buy a car with no money down you not only owe for the car, but also the interest, taxes and tags along wiht anything else that may have been financed in with the car.
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#22 Consumer Suggestion

more people that like the Rip Off Report then people that hate it

AUTHOR: Stick - (U.S.A.)

Thomas you say that you are seven pounds upside down. Guess who put you in that position? You seem to not like the EDitor of this consumer web site. What's your beef with him. He is only trying to do something right to help protect consumers.

Go to www.bbb.com and try to read consumers complaints. Try to get informed by your local newspaper Thomas! Don't be too fast to bad mouth something that is not able to help you out of your bad car deal. Did you do any homework before you went shopping? Bet NOT!

Trust me Thomas there are more people that like the Rip Off Report then people that hate it and what it stands for. The only people that hate it might be the people that are ripping people off and that are reported here.

Don't get mad at www.ripoffreport.com and the EDitor because of your bad car deal. YOU and only YOU signed the dotted line.
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#23 Consumer Comment

Who the real ripoff artists are...

AUTHOR: Thomas - (U.S.A.)

It is my belief that the true ripoff artists in society are those that give nothing in return for our money...it is my belief that the bible is true and it says a fool and his money are soon parted!!! But the real artists are bank robbers, strippers and traffic cops. You get nothing in return for your money...That is a real ripoff, but when you finance a car for 60 months and 580 per month and fulfill that obligation you get the title for your car!? Am I wrong? The problem with you EDitor is that you waste all your energy and precious time to gripe about your sour grapes...not to mention the fact that you accept donations, what you are sir is a pan handler or a piano man!!! Either way you are a CANCER to society and you ought to be irradiated!!! You say that you are a public service and so does the stripper!!! You are as full of it as anybody I've ever read or heard of, you probably even lack the affrontory to publish my remarks, C'est la vie!!! you don't change one thing about my life. but i believe i ought to at least give you some "ACT RIGHT" preaching. You should repent and get on with your sorry excuse for a life. You obviously didn't get spanked enough by your parents, or else you'd realize what a waste of effort you employ. If you feel so strongly about your convictions why don't you send me some of your money to help get me out from under my current car...i'm upside down $7000, any takers!!!
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#24 Consumer Comment

Management is the problem

AUTHOR: Frank - (U.S.A.)

It's annoying to read what some of these Sales Manager Clowns write. What planet are they from? Why don't they trying shopping for a car? (including their own dealership).

There are about 22,000 new car franchised dealerships in the U.S. and I've been in hundreds all over the country. If anyone has it right, it's the EIG Managers. At least they seem to understand that it's the customer's choice. Do customers lie? So what if they do.

A survey concluded Sales Managers spend 18% of their time working directly with the sales force. The rest of the time they're putting out fires. Now that's management! Sales meetings? Just a place for the Sales Manager to demean and demoralize the Salespeople. Sales Managers blame everything on the Salespeople. It's never them.

Where do Salespeople get their deceptive training - you guessed it - the Sales Manager! How did this idiot get the job in the first place? Simple, the previous Sales Manager left or got fired so the GM or DP pulled him off the showroom floor. Where did he get his management training from . . . . the last Goofie Sales Manager! (some over paid high school drop out). It's all about education and training but, as long as these Clowns get paid for bad behavior nothing's going to change.

And, don't give that crap that Salespeople work hard. Most sit on their butts until the "door swings"
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#25 Consumer Comment

out of hand, dealer is going to make a profiit, or he will not stay in business

AUTHOR: Scott - (U.S.A.)

This whole thing has gotten out of hand. Fact of the matter is that the dealer is going to make a profiit, or he will not stay in business. How much he makes should not be in question. When was the last time you bought a house and asked them how much the original owners paid for it, or asked wallmart how much they had in an item you were buying. And beleive me wallmart makes a lot bigger proffit percentage wise, than most dealers.

Without the proffit the dealers make they would not be able to hire, train or retain good quality, knowledgable sales people. What you would have is a lot of minimum wage kids that dont know jack about the car, cant answer any of your questions and could care less whether or not you buy the car. Frankly I am not spending my hard earned cash anywhere that I dont get a little respect and get correct answers to any questions or concerns that I may have!
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#26 Consumer Suggestion

there is a black book

AUTHOR: Scott - (U.S.A.)

Yes, there is a black book, and what it has in it the price for the cars that have gone throught the auction in your local area to give the dealers a way to gauge what a car may be worth. This is in no way what your car is worth. You may have a car worth more or less and most dealers make an alowance based on YOUR car. You have to remember that if the book says your $10,000 dollar car is worth $8,000 then it is probably only worth $8,000 to the dealer or less. The dealer has to take a chance on the car and hope that it dosn't need any repair, which in most cases is wrong. Most cars require close to $1,000 dollars of repair to make it ready to sell. IE paint work, good detail, brakes, lube, new tires, and a warrante to cover it. So now your $8,000 car is a $9,000 car so that if we sell it we make $1,000. If you cant make at least $1,000 you cant afford to stay open! And why would we buy your for $10,000, if we can get one at the auction for $8,000?
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#27 Consumer Suggestion

there is a black book

AUTHOR: Scott - (U.S.A.)

Yes, there is a black book, and what it has in it the price for the cars that have gone throught the auction in your local area to give the dealers a way to gauge what a car may be worth. This is in no way what your car is worth. You may have a car worth more or less and most dealers make an alowance based on YOUR car. You have to remember that if the book says your $10,000 dollar car is worth $8,000 then it is probably only worth $8,000 to the dealer or less. The dealer has to take a chance on the car and hope that it dosn't need any repair, which in most cases is wrong. Most cars require close to $1,000 dollars of repair to make it ready to sell. IE paint work, good detail, brakes, lube, new tires, and a warrante to cover it. So now your $8,000 car is a $9,000 car so that if we sell it we make $1,000. If you cant make at least $1,000 you cant afford to stay open! And why would we buy your for $10,000, if we can get one at the auction for $8,000?
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#28 Consumer Suggestion

there is a black book

AUTHOR: Scott - (U.S.A.)

Yes, there is a black book, and what it has in it the price for the cars that have gone throught the auction in your local area to give the dealers a way to gauge what a car may be worth. This is in no way what your car is worth. You may have a car worth more or less and most dealers make an alowance based on YOUR car. You have to remember that if the book says your $10,000 dollar car is worth $8,000 then it is probably only worth $8,000 to the dealer or less. The dealer has to take a chance on the car and hope that it dosn't need any repair, which in most cases is wrong. Most cars require close to $1,000 dollars of repair to make it ready to sell. IE paint work, good detail, brakes, lube, new tires, and a warrante to cover it. So now your $8,000 car is a $9,000 car so that if we sell it we make $1,000. If you cant make at least $1,000 you cant afford to stay open! And why would we buy your for $10,000, if we can get one at the auction for $8,000?
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#29 Consumer Suggestion

Black Book anyone? dealers paying about 1/3 of the price they were charging

AUTHOR: Nancy - (U.S.A.)

I used to be a driver at an auto auction in the mid 1990's. It was dealer only, so I learned a bit about the biz. I got to know the dealers and I learned what they paid for the cars. I also learned about a little thing called The Black Book.

Most consumers know about The Blue Book, but they don't know about The Black Book. That's the book the dealers use to buy cars .. at wholesale, not retail. The Black Book is updated monthly and they can buy it from the publishing company or buy a copy at the auction itself.

Black Book Features:

Contains both a Clean and Average Wholesale value

Contains both a Clean and Average Retail value

Contains value adjustments for Optional Equipment
Contains the Original MSRP and a Loan value

Contains Mileage adjustment charts

Contains chart for Conversion Van values

Contains the Universal Vehicle Code (UVC) for trim level identification

Contains the Model Number

From my experiences back then, the dealers were paying about 1/3 of the price they were charging consumers for these cars.

If I were to go to a dealer to buy a car, I would ask them to show me the Black Book price, not Blue Book. If they tell you no such critter exists, point them to http://www.blackbookusa.com/ where it's available for order online.

I did a little searching on that site and saw there were different ordering pages, depending on if you were a car dealer or a consumer. That in itself makes me suspect if I would order the consumer form of this book, it may not be the same as if I ordered it as a dealer. I can't say for sure, I can't afford to order it and find out at this point in time. Maybe someone else reading this can get a copy of both and compare them, then report back.

My experience is only in used cars, but I saw on that website they also offer The Black Book for new cars. Since we only had used cars at the auction, the only version I personally read was the used car Black Book.

I understand dealers have to mark up the cost of cars. I think everyone understands that. The concern is how much the mark up is.
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#30 Consumer Suggestion

Black Book anyone? dealers paying about 1/3 of the price they were charging

AUTHOR: Nancy - (U.S.A.)

I used to be a driver at an auto auction in the mid 1990's. It was dealer only, so I learned a bit about the biz. I got to know the dealers and I learned what they paid for the cars. I also learned about a little thing called The Black Book.

Most consumers know about The Blue Book, but they don't know about The Black Book. That's the book the dealers use to buy cars .. at wholesale, not retail. The Black Book is updated monthly and they can buy it from the publishing company or buy a copy at the auction itself.

Black Book Features:

Contains both a Clean and Average Wholesale value

Contains both a Clean and Average Retail value

Contains value adjustments for Optional Equipment
Contains the Original MSRP and a Loan value

Contains Mileage adjustment charts

Contains chart for Conversion Van values

Contains the Universal Vehicle Code (UVC) for trim level identification

Contains the Model Number

From my experiences back then, the dealers were paying about 1/3 of the price they were charging consumers for these cars.

If I were to go to a dealer to buy a car, I would ask them to show me the Black Book price, not Blue Book. If they tell you no such critter exists, point them to http://www.blackbookusa.com/ where it's available for order online.

I did a little searching on that site and saw there were different ordering pages, depending on if you were a car dealer or a consumer. That in itself makes me suspect if I would order the consumer form of this book, it may not be the same as if I ordered it as a dealer. I can't say for sure, I can't afford to order it and find out at this point in time. Maybe someone else reading this can get a copy of both and compare them, then report back.

My experience is only in used cars, but I saw on that website they also offer The Black Book for new cars. Since we only had used cars at the auction, the only version I personally read was the used car Black Book.

I understand dealers have to mark up the cost of cars. I think everyone understands that. The concern is how much the mark up is.
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#31 Consumer Suggestion

Black Book anyone? dealers paying about 1/3 of the price they were charging

AUTHOR: Nancy - (U.S.A.)

I used to be a driver at an auto auction in the mid 1990's. It was dealer only, so I learned a bit about the biz. I got to know the dealers and I learned what they paid for the cars. I also learned about a little thing called The Black Book.

Most consumers know about The Blue Book, but they don't know about The Black Book. That's the book the dealers use to buy cars .. at wholesale, not retail. The Black Book is updated monthly and they can buy it from the publishing company or buy a copy at the auction itself.

Black Book Features:

Contains both a Clean and Average Wholesale value

Contains both a Clean and Average Retail value

Contains value adjustments for Optional Equipment
Contains the Original MSRP and a Loan value

Contains Mileage adjustment charts

Contains chart for Conversion Van values

Contains the Universal Vehicle Code (UVC) for trim level identification

Contains the Model Number

From my experiences back then, the dealers were paying about 1/3 of the price they were charging consumers for these cars.

If I were to go to a dealer to buy a car, I would ask them to show me the Black Book price, not Blue Book. If they tell you no such critter exists, point them to http://www.blackbookusa.com/ where it's available for order online.

I did a little searching on that site and saw there were different ordering pages, depending on if you were a car dealer or a consumer. That in itself makes me suspect if I would order the consumer form of this book, it may not be the same as if I ordered it as a dealer. I can't say for sure, I can't afford to order it and find out at this point in time. Maybe someone else reading this can get a copy of both and compare them, then report back.

My experience is only in used cars, but I saw on that website they also offer The Black Book for new cars. Since we only had used cars at the auction, the only version I personally read was the used car Black Book.

I understand dealers have to mark up the cost of cars. I think everyone understands that. The concern is how much the mark up is.
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#32 Consumer Suggestion

Black Book anyone? dealers paying about 1/3 of the price they were charging

AUTHOR: Nancy - (U.S.A.)

I used to be a driver at an auto auction in the mid 1990's. It was dealer only, so I learned a bit about the biz. I got to know the dealers and I learned what they paid for the cars. I also learned about a little thing called The Black Book.

Most consumers know about The Blue Book, but they don't know about The Black Book. That's the book the dealers use to buy cars .. at wholesale, not retail. The Black Book is updated monthly and they can buy it from the publishing company or buy a copy at the auction itself.

Black Book Features:

Contains both a Clean and Average Wholesale value

Contains both a Clean and Average Retail value

Contains value adjustments for Optional Equipment
Contains the Original MSRP and a Loan value

Contains Mileage adjustment charts

Contains chart for Conversion Van values

Contains the Universal Vehicle Code (UVC) for trim level identification

Contains the Model Number

From my experiences back then, the dealers were paying about 1/3 of the price they were charging consumers for these cars.

If I were to go to a dealer to buy a car, I would ask them to show me the Black Book price, not Blue Book. If they tell you no such critter exists, point them to http://www.blackbookusa.com/ where it's available for order online.

I did a little searching on that site and saw there were different ordering pages, depending on if you were a car dealer or a consumer. That in itself makes me suspect if I would order the consumer form of this book, it may not be the same as if I ordered it as a dealer. I can't say for sure, I can't afford to order it and find out at this point in time. Maybe someone else reading this can get a copy of both and compare them, then report back.

My experience is only in used cars, but I saw on that website they also offer The Black Book for new cars. Since we only had used cars at the auction, the only version I personally read was the used car Black Book.

I understand dealers have to mark up the cost of cars. I think everyone understands that. The concern is how much the mark up is.
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#33 Consumer Suggestion

tricks in the car bussiness are a lot trickier than anything you listed, and most people are incapable of understanding

AUTHOR: Timothy - (U.S.A.)

I am the general sales manager of an auto dealership, which has used all of the above companies for training. I have been in this bussiness for nine years and worked as a salesperson,finance manager,and sales manager.

I have no desire to argue with you or attempt to change your opinion as to things that happen in the auto industry. I have personally seen things done that you have probably never even heard of.

The tricks in the car bussiness are a lot trickier than anything you listed, and most people are incapable of understanding, so there is no point in naming them.In nine years I have NEVER lied to a single customer, or practiced any of these dishonest ways of doing bussiness.And there are many more like me. Working in this bussiness (honestly and with integrity) has enabled me to provide my wife and three children with a lovely home and everything they need, do I take great offense at your prejudice against me.

Your statements against all car people are as evil as those made by racist biggits. It is my sincere hope that you do post this rebuttal, however I wonder if your biggitist attitude will allow it.

P.S. The average total profit in my store is around 2850.00 per car The average cost to me per vehicle I sell is around 23000.00 I pay interest on these vehicles as well as overhead. What type of return would you expect on an investment of this kind.
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#34 Consumer Suggestion

No regrets here... I just ended my career in the car buisness and I have not one single regret

AUTHOR: Howie - (U.S.A.)

Humph.

I think i might need ta pull out tha ole boxing gloves with this group.

Anyway, I just ended my career in the car buisness and I have not one single regret. I sold two different high end luxury car lines and i would love to see low-mid range dealers take suit to the level of customer care some high end dealers give....My saying is that you should not have to buy a $64.000 Infiniti just to get awesome service...You should be able to buy a "whatever model" inexpensive little car and get darn near the same level of service.

What could help all the problems?
Set pricing industry wide. No haggle.
Saturn is selling tons of cars doing it that way and they have a return buyer ratio that is unfeakin real.

As for all this training "stuff"...
I will say this..What training? heh?
My training entailed basic manufac certs...and as for the rest, Well I learned the hard way.
But by learning the hard way I walked away from the car bizz with a lot more than what I came with

Acura&Infinti Rocks!
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#35 Consumer Suggestion

Why arrange your own financing, in most cases you hurt yourself.

AUTHOR: Scott - (U.S.A.)

When was the last time you saw a bank offer 0% financing? In most cases the dealerships offer the best financing options and it is hard to hide them when the manufactures post them all over the newspaper, tv, and internet.
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#36 Consumer Suggestion

Extended service agreements. If these are from the original manufacturer then it is a safe

AUTHOR: Scott - (U.S.A.)

Add-ons ... The last guy said not to take any add-ons. Well I am here to explain what the add-ons are and which ones might be right for you. Dotn just say no to them.

1st. Extended service agreements. If these are from the original manufacturer then it is a safe bet that they will pay off if something does happen. What you are buying is an insurance policy against the rising cost of labor. Curently the delaership labor cost is about $60-$70 an hour. And everyone knows that it will eventually break, nothing is perfect.

2nd. GAP insurance. ow this one is a little tricky, this pays in the event that the car is totaled, and it pays the difference between the car is actully worth and what the insurance company thinks its worth. EX. If you total a new car in the first year and lets say that you owed on the car you traded in you might still owe $20,000 on a car that yu only paid $20,000 for and the bank books it out at $12,000. NOW YOU OWE THE DIFFERENCE. unless you have gap that covers the difference, then owe owe nothing. Dont assume that full coverage insurance pays for all, just ask your insurnace company!

3rd credit health and credit life. This is good if say for example you have a co-signer on the load. So if you happen to die or become disabled the co-signer is not hit for the payment of the loan.

The paint and fabric protector is not something that I would pay for, You can wash and wax your own car. But do take into consideration the other things I have wrote here and decide for-yourself if they are worth it. I personaly have an extnded service agreement on the car I own.
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#37 Consumer Suggestion

Rare Positive Experience

AUTHOR: Mike - (U.S.A.)

Thanks to all of the reports here, I was able to experience the rare positive car buying experience.

A few weeks ago my friend was in the market for a new car, and she asked my advice and asked me to accompany her on the day she went shopping. She really did her homework. She knew exactly the car she was looking for, the price she would expect to pay, and the value of her trade in. The morning we went shopping we went to her credit union and got her financing approved, and the final payoff on her current car. She also had cash for an additional downpayment. As a result, she had a fairly good idea of what her monthly payment would be on the new vehicle, within $5-$10.

At each dealer we visited, she test drove the exact vehicle that she would consider buying. Our discussion with the salesperson always started the same way: "We are 99% certain they we will be buying a car today. Our plan is to visit several dealers. What we want from you is the best price you can give us on the new vehicle, and the best you can give us on the trade in. We have our own financing plus an additional cash down payment. You have one opportunity to give us your best shot. We will not reveal your numbers to any other dealer. We will then go to lunch and decide which deal is the best. If yours is the best, we will call you to let you know we are on the way back to complete the deal. If you choose not to deal this way, you won't have a chance at our business."

At the end of the day, she got the car she wanted at a fair price, she got fair value on her trade-in, there were no surprises in the F&I office, and the dealer made a fair profit. I have nothing against allowing them to make a profit, as long as it's fair.

My advice:

#1-Do you homework. Know what you are looking for, what's a fair price to pay, know what your trade is (realistically) worth, and know your pay-off if you still owe on your current car. **NO SURPRISES

#2-Arrange your financing before you ever step one foot on the lot. If you know the approximate price for the new vehicle, the value of your trade-in, and what you currently owe (if anything), you'll know going in approximately what your monthly payment will be. **NO SURPRISES

#3-Let each dealer know that you are serious about buying a vehicle, but they get only one chance to give you their best deal. Don't fall into the salesman-sales manager game. If they ask you the typical question "What would it take to drive one of our vehicles off the lot?" Answer: "Your best deal, right up front, that will beat anything else we see today." A few years ago I had one dealer who insisted on running back and forth to the sales manager the old-fashioned way. We left there and never looked back.

#4-Make it clear that you won't show their numbers to anyone else. If you want them to deal fairly with you, you need to be fair with them. And stick to your promise. If none of the offers you get are within your expectations, you can still just walk away, re-evaluate your expectations, or you can decide to give them all a second chance. I've never had to do that.

#5-When you decide on the dealer who will get your business, and you go to the F&I office, don't be talked into the add-ons: extended warranty, fabric & paint protection, anything that will allow them to slip in additional profit points. Stick with the original deal. **NO SURPRISES

Above all, and it's worth repeating: DO YOUR HOMEWORK.
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#38 Consumer Suggestion

How not to get Riped-off

AUTHOR: Scott - (U.S.A.)

I have been selling cars for over 7 years and I have seen it all. I work in an area that just had a dealership set the record for the most lawsuites it even had several banks quit doing buisness with it. So I know what goes on in these places. But not in all of them. The best way to find a respectable dealership is to ask around and find out how many people have bought more than one car from them. At my dealership we run an 80% repeate buisness, and we dont get that from ripping people off, we get that from making a proffitt and taking car of the customer after the sale. I personally have several hundred customers that have become close freinds of mine that I see and talk to on a daily basis. I didnt get this from ripping them off. If you ask around and you see that most everone you talk to that bought a car from a specific dealership says that they wouldnt go back THEN BY ALL MEANS DONT GO, if you do you are asking for trouble, but if you ask around and find that several people have bought several cars from the same dealership it is a pretty good bet that they are honset and deserve you buisness, and will appreciate it. Word of mouth is the biggest killer, so just listen to what you neighbor says. Because the bad dealerships will have their knick-names already given them by the consumer. We have several around here. So use your ear. I bet you would be hard pressed to find 10 bad experinces from my dealership! and find 3 from over 700 of my personal customers!
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#39 Consumer Comment

Because of deceptive & unfair practices of F&I managers & their salesmen it is risky just visiting the local dealership.

AUTHOR: Dissatisfied - (U.S.A.)

I have seen some form of dishonest practices in almost every dealership I visited. Car salesmen and F&I managers are TRAINED to lie, cheat, & steal from the consumer. Car dealership owners have NO respect for the consumer. I have learned the hard way from City Mitsubishi, Jacksonville, FL that their is truly no limit to what tactics the F&I manager & salesman will do to make a sale. I read complaints from salesmen claim they make no money. I don't see too many car salemen living in apartments and they usually wear expensive jewelry. If you hate your lifestyle then quit and go to college and get a honest job and quit being a leech on society. All you carsalemen who whine about being beat up by a customer for 2 hours to avoid being ripped off by YOU. How many times you had the upper hand because your master trained you well to lie & make the customer feel comfortable enough to follow you to the F&I office to get bent over by the F&I manager. Since there are so many dealerships and salesmen the pay must be adequate enough to stay for years. It is obvious that most car dealers are criminal minded or at best crafty grifters. Oh by the way profit is made in communism look at Kim Jong of N. Korea he looks like he has been eating well! Soon I will be in the market to shop for an auto on the battlefield call the car lot pirahnas. Know what will be different? I will have a tape recorder so I can hold the lying cheat salesman to any promises that are made or at least have proof of any attempted fraud. Oh by the way if a dealership attempts to keep me from leaving of my own free will because I did not buy their bull, I will have the means to persuade them I am the wrong person to mess with and let me go on my merry way. Actually having a ingrown toenail removed is more pleasent then car shopping! NO REGARDS TO YOU SCUMMY TRASHY CARSALEMEN & F&I MANAGERS!
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#40 Consumer Comment

The only time you are ripped off is if you do not get the product for a price that you agree on.

AUTHOR: Will - (U.S.A.)

I am ompletely taken back by this page. I have been in Automotive Sales for several years and have actually left a company to go with another company because of the Cardone Sales system. All of the information is provided all you need to do is READ!!! In stead of doing that you would rather go home and ask a friend if you got a good deal, and most of the time they are going to lie to you about what they paid. Does this mean you were ripped off...NO!!! The only time you are ripped off is if you do not get the product for a price that you agree on. If I give you a price and they increase it in Finance well guess what accidents happen mention it to them they will check and correct it (I bet if it was lower you would not say a word... who is the rip off artist then). That is why he/she is mandated by Law to go over the contract including price, interest, payments, number of payments, total interest paid and total amount paid for the car including the interest. If you can not figure it out after that if something is wrong then maybe you should not be driving in the first place.

As far as Sales managers being thiefs or the best at slaughtering people...I disagree. Yes they are good, but I find most are just dedicated people to the company. I was a manager for a short while, but I made more money as a sales person and dont get the wrong idea I still have an average customer satisfaction rating of 96 for 5 years. You see I sell the fact that my customers are buying a car that is worth what the factory states it is worth.they are also buying my dealership and most of all they are buying ME. I sell anywhere from 6-10 cars a month from referrals and return customers.

What I really want to know is what training do you have and what makes you an expert on the people that you are condemming? Have you gone to a seminar? Have you worked in a Dealership? Have you ever considered what you would say to a customer who looks you in the face and tells you after they beat you completely up for 2 hours that they want to take your price to another dealership to shop it? What about the next day when you call and they say they got to the dealership and they had a car that they could do for 200 less only to find out the sticker price was 500 less. The job is hard enough with every person wanting to negotiate starting at invoice and going down from there. Lets make it easy come in Pay MSRP and noone will feel "ripped off" because their mommas brothers uncle has a friend who has a cousin that got the same car for $200 less.

In reality we work our tails off some people up to 70 hours a week for an average lifestyle and I think that if we spend 2-3 hours with you going over the car(by the way lets not mention how much training we go through on the products) then we deserve to make some income also. If you want a car at invoice the salesman can make 50-100 dollars sell 10 cars great you make a thousand do that 2 months in a row and you can afford the bullet that this site is going to make you want to put into your head
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#41 Consumer Comment

The only time you are ripped off is if you do not get the product for a price that you agree on.

AUTHOR: Will - (U.S.A.)

I am ompletely taken back by this page. I have been in Automotive Sales for several years and have actually left a company to go with another company because of the Cardone Sales system. All of the information is provided all you need to do is READ!!! In stead of doing that you would rather go home and ask a friend if you got a good deal, and most of the time they are going to lie to you about what they paid. Does this mean you were ripped off...NO!!! The only time you are ripped off is if you do not get the product for a price that you agree on. If I give you a price and they increase it in Finance well guess what accidents happen mention it to them they will check and correct it (I bet if it was lower you would not say a word... who is the rip off artist then). That is why he/she is mandated by Law to go over the contract including price, interest, payments, number of payments, total interest paid and total amount paid for the car including the interest. If you can not figure it out after that if something is wrong then maybe you should not be driving in the first place.

As far as Sales managers being thiefs or the best at slaughtering people...I disagree. Yes they are good, but I find most are just dedicated people to the company. I was a manager for a short while, but I made more money as a sales person and dont get the wrong idea I still have an average customer satisfaction rating of 96 for 5 years. You see I sell the fact that my customers are buying a car that is worth what the factory states it is worth.they are also buying my dealership and most of all they are buying ME. I sell anywhere from 6-10 cars a month from referrals and return customers.

What I really want to know is what training do you have and what makes you an expert on the people that you are condemming? Have you gone to a seminar? Have you worked in a Dealership? Have you ever considered what you would say to a customer who looks you in the face and tells you after they beat you completely up for 2 hours that they want to take your price to another dealership to shop it? What about the next day when you call and they say they got to the dealership and they had a car that they could do for 200 less only to find out the sticker price was 500 less. The job is hard enough with every person wanting to negotiate starting at invoice and going down from there. Lets make it easy come in Pay MSRP and noone will feel "ripped off" because their mommas brothers uncle has a friend who has a cousin that got the same car for $200 less.

In reality we work our tails off some people up to 70 hours a week for an average lifestyle and I think that if we spend 2-3 hours with you going over the car(by the way lets not mention how much training we go through on the products) then we deserve to make some income also. If you want a car at invoice the salesman can make 50-100 dollars sell 10 cars great you make a thousand do that 2 months in a row and you can afford the bullet that this site is going to make you want to put into your head
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#42 Consumer Comment

The only time you are ripped off is if you do not get the product for a price that you agree on.

AUTHOR: Will - (U.S.A.)

I am ompletely taken back by this page. I have been in Automotive Sales for several years and have actually left a company to go with another company because of the Cardone Sales system. All of the information is provided all you need to do is READ!!! In stead of doing that you would rather go home and ask a friend if you got a good deal, and most of the time they are going to lie to you about what they paid. Does this mean you were ripped off...NO!!! The only time you are ripped off is if you do not get the product for a price that you agree on. If I give you a price and they increase it in Finance well guess what accidents happen mention it to them they will check and correct it (I bet if it was lower you would not say a word... who is the rip off artist then). That is why he/she is mandated by Law to go over the contract including price, interest, payments, number of payments, total interest paid and total amount paid for the car including the interest. If you can not figure it out after that if something is wrong then maybe you should not be driving in the first place.

As far as Sales managers being thiefs or the best at slaughtering people...I disagree. Yes they are good, but I find most are just dedicated people to the company. I was a manager for a short while, but I made more money as a sales person and dont get the wrong idea I still have an average customer satisfaction rating of 96 for 5 years. You see I sell the fact that my customers are buying a car that is worth what the factory states it is worth.they are also buying my dealership and most of all they are buying ME. I sell anywhere from 6-10 cars a month from referrals and return customers.

What I really want to know is what training do you have and what makes you an expert on the people that you are condemming? Have you gone to a seminar? Have you worked in a Dealership? Have you ever considered what you would say to a customer who looks you in the face and tells you after they beat you completely up for 2 hours that they want to take your price to another dealership to shop it? What about the next day when you call and they say they got to the dealership and they had a car that they could do for 200 less only to find out the sticker price was 500 less. The job is hard enough with every person wanting to negotiate starting at invoice and going down from there. Lets make it easy come in Pay MSRP and noone will feel "ripped off" because their mommas brothers uncle has a friend who has a cousin that got the same car for $200 less.

In reality we work our tails off some people up to 70 hours a week for an average lifestyle and I think that if we spend 2-3 hours with you going over the car(by the way lets not mention how much training we go through on the products) then we deserve to make some income also. If you want a car at invoice the salesman can make 50-100 dollars sell 10 cars great you make a thousand do that 2 months in a row and you can afford the bullet that this site is going to make you want to put into your head
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#43 UPDATE Employee

salespeople who constantly lie are dying off like dinosaurs

AUTHOR: Steve - (U.S.A.)

Realities....#1 salespeople who constantly lie are dying off like dinosaurs....#2 any sales mangager who hires dishonest salespeople will not be a manager for long...too much problems, owners dont want heat these days, give me a break.....#3 auto sales profit margins are some of the slimmest on any products PERIOD. Its almost funny for me to watch customers go dealer to dealer stressing out themselves and they're family over $100 sometimes to say the got the best deal. Then the same customer will tell me about who they pay to do their lawn or something similar, and unwittingly pay huge margins on something they can do on their own. Best price on the window? please. autonation lost millions of dollars when they figured the public would appreciate such a service....my final point who lies more, a salesperson (99% trying to earn an honest living with a family just like everyone else)or a customer trying to get the best deal?...anyways...car shopping has evolved into one of life's challenges. people enjoy it. thanks and happy shopping.
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#44 Consumer Comment

congratulations, selling new cars and making money on the naievty of a minority

AUTHOR: Giovanni - (U.S.A.)

What a wonderful country we live in. Here you are taking a venue like selling new cars and making money on the naievty of a minority.
Get real will you. The majority of people in the market for a car or a washing machine are smart enough to make an intelligent decesion. Your $19.95 certainly makes for a good reason for someone to further validate thier stupidity.
People like you should be looked at for what you are. Bloodsuckers of the ignorant. In any event,the money is good and life goes on. Your page won't be a distant memory in a matter of months.
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#45 Consumer Comment

Reality vs Perspective

AUTHOR: Frank - (U.S.A.)

I must say you guys "stir it up" and that's good! The only real way to get on the road to solve the problems in car sales is to get the government involved in licensing Salespeople along with the manufacturers holding the dealer's ethical feet to the fire.

I read some of the rebuttals and I can't figure out whether they are written out of arrogance or ignorance. Most of these "clowns" try to justify there behavior and want people to think it's the other dealerships, managers, salespeople and not theirs. I'll bet there are some "hit men" too that do their job and believe they are warm caring folks because they have families and a mortgage.

The attitude in most dealerships is to "crush" the customer because they are the enemy. What's fair and ethical is not included when dealing with a customer. Afterall "buyers are liers" Ofcourse salespeople aren't. In most dealerships,Scam is the name of their sales training. Why? Because there is an over paid, inept, egotiscial sales manager that wants to believe he has all the answers and will twist the deal, bend the truth and do what he can to help crush the customer. Most of them don't realize that it's a consumer driven business. People don't just want cars, they need them. I'm sure any of these geniuses wouldn't have their job if they had to go door to door trying to sell a different product. They get confused between a customer buying a car and what they think of as "selling". Most people end up buying a car from the best of the worst. Customers have little choice if they want or need a car. So let's sweet talk them and crush them at the same time and then wonder why people feel that they would rather go to the dentist than venture into a car dealership. But again, "it's the other dealerships not ours." The real problem is most managers and salespeople don't understand their job description. For these people lieing is the answer for not knowing the correct answer and I don't mean product knowledge.

For the handful of sales managers and salespeople who have spent the time becoming a sales professional and understand the sales process and who do not engage in devious sales practices, it is you who will help change the face of auto sales. For the rest, there is nothing new. For those naive managers and salespeople, the tricks you think you thought up, well, they've all been done before. Can't clean up the business until the clowns stop perpetuating the deceptions.
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#46 Consumer Comment

Why Salespeople Lie

AUTHOR: Frank - (U.S.A.)

The sad part is that a lot of what you write about the car business is true. The real question is how do you go about changing it? As the saying goes, "The fish rots from the head down." What responsibility does the car manufacturers have in the people who represent their products? None of them have on going comprehensive sales training programs for Salespeople or Sales Managers. I would suggest McDonalds "Hamberger College" is better than anything the car business has to offer to their franchise dealers. In the car business the only thing the manufacturer is interested in is their "Product Knowledge Certification Programs" which has little to do with professional salesmanship. General Managers and Sales Managers got their jobs by being a survivor of the showroom floor. I would suggest the average manager has a high school education and no management training. He thinks intimidation of Salespeople is management (Glen Gary - Glen Ross). Pay plans and work schedules are all over the place. It's no wonder more than half of all new Salespeople leave the business in less than a year. As for Sales Training Companies, what are their creditentials? Who are these self-onionted trainers? Where did they get their training? If you really want to change things, like Real Estate and Insurance Salespeople, license Automobile Salespeople with a comprehensive on going federal or state training and testing program. Do background checks. Don't allow someone who got out of jail yesterday, sit down at a desk in a dealership and start selling cars tomorrow. Require Sales Managers to be licensed as "Sales Managers" too.
Changing the perception of the "Car Salesman" would take a long time but, if nothing is done, customers will still be talking to "salespeople" with 0 to 6 months on the job and little or no training.
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#47 Consumer Suggestion

Hey Robert who might be a "F&I Clown" chew on this!

AUTHOR: The Great Thorn - Rip-off Report Consumer Advocate - (U.S.A.)

Hey Robert, it seems to me that you defend auto dealer deception. One of my goals is to get some F&I Clowns to go to jail for fraud. You know what I am talking about.

Padding the Buyer's income, lying to the lenders as to how much the car buyer is REALLY paying for their rent. You know what I mean, jockeying the info on the Buyer's credit App to make the deal look good in the lender's eyes.

Doing what ever they can to make the deal look better so a bank will hang the paper. Just makes me sick as to what car dealers are doing to car buyers. Changes are comming, and soon!

We must not forget about some of the dirty phone tricks that car dealers do. Like "Spoon Feeding" their Strong "Lot Sharks" all of the "phone UP's. making sure that all of their "Green Pea's" grind all day on their "Shark Pond" that's the lot pounding in the heat for their next "UP"

Note to all that are thinking of buying a car from a car dealer:

Call up any car dealer and ask to speak to a new car salesman. Chat with the clown for a few, Then hang up then call back in a hour or two and ask to speak to a new car sales man.

See if their operator dumps you back to the same "Trained Lot Shark" If they do, you can bet that they make sure that their operator dumps all "Phone UP's" to their favorite "Spoon Fed Lot Shark" "SFLS"

By the way Robert you and I know that GM's and GSM's only will put the "lot Sharks" that have the most rolls of teeth in their F&I office. They only want the one that has the ability to bend everyone over that steps foot in "The Box" and go the deepest. You know, go for the backend poundage. "BP"

Yes it is true that some car buyer's like their F&I clown. That's when the buyer gets in deep trouble! Thinking they feel Ok with their F&I guy.

They think he or she is nice. Bad thinking, once the "Trained F&I Clown" thinks their soon to be victim likes them, The buyer is now in need of KY Jelly in a big way.

"F&I Clowns" like to sell some dumb a*s over priced Paint protection package to a car buyer. Making the buyer feel like they are protecting their new "Over Priced Depreciating SLED". "OPDS"

Robert have you gone to your service department and ask your service manager for a burnt out ECM so you could stuff it in the face of your customer's face trying to use scare tactic's so you can sell them an Over Priced extended warranty like all other F&I Clowns?

Have you been trained to use Fear to increase your gross?

What kind of "backend Poundage" goal do you have for each car deal? "F&I clowns" look for new ways to bend over car buyers everyday and YOU know it.

Stay tuned because as soon as we help a deceptive "F&I Clown go to JAIL for FRAUD, you can bet we will have hay day with it.

I will see to it that it makes Rip Off Report head lines! I also will see to it that we have one of our many advocates take big HAPPY Photos of the dealer where he or she played their dirty games.

Robert I know you come to this web site because you are hoping that your dealer has not made the Rip Off Report, Right? I am sure that if not, it soon will. The cool part is when it does you can't have it deleted. We are not like your buddy the BBB.

Note to all car buyers: Call up your auto finance company and ask for copies of all documentation that the dealer sent to them when you bought your car. You might experience what this lady has in the Rip Off Report listed below.

http://www.ripoffreport.com/view.asp?id=52158

Read this above Rip Off Report real good and make sure this deception does not happen to you. If it has File a Rip Off Report and expose your "F&I Clown" and your "lot Shark"

You need to look at the credit application they sent to your lender, it might not be the one you filled out. Might be the one your "Trained Lot Shark" filled out after you went home with your new "Over Priced Depreciating SLED". "OPDS"

If you as a car buyer think your last F&I Clown liked you, ask them to show you the "backend Gross" they bent you over for!
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#48 Consumer Comment

Profit is not a dirty word

AUTHOR: Robert - (U.S.A.)

It is obvious to me that you have never been a car salesman.Your ranting about "being ripped off" is just plain idiotic.
I''ve been a car salesman for 8 yrs, and am now the Sales Manager.I've made a lot of money in this profession, and I'm PROUD of what I do.This is not a charity, and who are you to decide what's "fair"? If you are such a moron that you do not research what you as the comsumer thinks is a fair price for the car then too bad for you.
I really have one comment for people like you;
" it's up to YOU, to get your best price from me,not the other way around".

And oh, by the way, you also want me to take your trade off your hands so that you do not have to sell it decause it's not easy to sell it huh?

I'll tell you what , push the print button on Kelly Blue Book and see if prints you a check.
Your want to get your best price, and not get ripped off by F&I.Here's how.

1. Sell your car to a private party so that the trade does not cloud the deal.(And don't forget not to make a profit on it).

2.Spend a few minutes getting prices from Edmunds on invoice and options and incentives.Determine what YOU think is a fair profit to the dealer.

3. If your going to finance, arrange your best rate with your bank.

But here is what really happens;
Hey, lets go look at cars and then argue price with the salesman, and lie that you have a better deal down the street. And you want us to buy your wreck, and you want a rate better than the buy rate even though you can't get that rate on your own from your bank because you don't do 4 million dollars a month with your bank, and oh yeah,your credit rating is a little shaky.
This site is a typical liberal crying game.I can't negotiate the price of milk with Wal mart,
and as long as the customer wants to negotiate there will be car salesman.I bet you want a lot of money for your house for sale though don't you.

Your site is a joke. I'm going to continue to try to profit on every car we sell, and if you want a better deal then you go get the training.
One more time because you bleeding hearts are a little slow.

It's up to YOU to get your best from me, not the other way around.
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#49 Consumer Comment

Profit is not a dirty word

AUTHOR: Robert - (U.S.A.)

It is obvious to me that you have never been a car salesman.Your ranting about "being ripped off" is just plain idiotic.
I''ve been a car salesman for 8 yrs, and am now the Sales Manager.I've made a lot of money in this profession, and I'm PROUD of what I do.This is not a charity, and who are you to decide what's "fair"? If you are such a moron that you do not research what you as the comsumer thinks is a fair price for the car then too bad for you.
I really have one comment for people like you;
" it's up to YOU, to get your best price from me,not the other way around".

And oh, by the way, you also want me to take your trade off your hands so that you do not have to sell it decause it's not easy to sell it huh?

I'll tell you what , push the print button on Kelly Blue Book and see if prints you a check.
Your want to get your best price, and not get ripped off by F&I.Here's how.

1. Sell your car to a private party so that the trade does not cloud the deal.(And don't forget not to make a profit on it).

2.Spend a few minutes getting prices from Edmunds on invoice and options and incentives.Determine what YOU think is a fair profit to the dealer.

3. If your going to finance, arrange your best rate with your bank.

But here is what really happens;
Hey, lets go look at cars and then argue price with the salesman, and lie that you have a better deal down the street. And you want us to buy your wreck, and you want a rate better than the buy rate even though you can't get that rate on your own from your bank because you don't do 4 million dollars a month with your bank, and oh yeah,your credit rating is a little shaky.
This site is a typical liberal crying game.I can't negotiate the price of milk with Wal mart,
and as long as the customer wants to negotiate there will be car salesman.I bet you want a lot of money for your house for sale though don't you.

Your site is a joke. I'm going to continue to try to profit on every car we sell, and if you want a better deal then you go get the training.
One more time because you bleeding hearts are a little slow.

It's up to YOU to get your best from me, not the other way around.
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#50 Consumer Comment

Profit is not a dirty word

AUTHOR: Robert - (U.S.A.)

It is obvious to me that you have never been a car salesman.Your ranting about "being ripped off" is just plain idiotic.
I''ve been a car salesman for 8 yrs, and am now the Sales Manager.I've made a lot of money in this profession, and I'm PROUD of what I do.This is not a charity, and who are you to decide what's "fair"? If you are such a moron that you do not research what you as the comsumer thinks is a fair price for the car then too bad for you.
I really have one comment for people like you;
" it's up to YOU, to get your best price from me,not the other way around".

And oh, by the way, you also want me to take your trade off your hands so that you do not have to sell it decause it's not easy to sell it huh?

I'll tell you what , push the print button on Kelly Blue Book and see if prints you a check.
Your want to get your best price, and not get ripped off by F&I.Here's how.

1. Sell your car to a private party so that the trade does not cloud the deal.(And don't forget not to make a profit on it).

2.Spend a few minutes getting prices from Edmunds on invoice and options and incentives.Determine what YOU think is a fair profit to the dealer.

3. If your going to finance, arrange your best rate with your bank.

But here is what really happens;
Hey, lets go look at cars and then argue price with the salesman, and lie that you have a better deal down the street. And you want us to buy your wreck, and you want a rate better than the buy rate even though you can't get that rate on your own from your bank because you don't do 4 million dollars a month with your bank, and oh yeah,your credit rating is a little shaky.
This site is a typical liberal crying game.I can't negotiate the price of milk with Wal mart,
and as long as the customer wants to negotiate there will be car salesman.I bet you want a lot of money for your house for sale though don't you.

Your site is a joke. I'm going to continue to try to profit on every car we sell, and if you want a better deal then you go get the training.
One more time because you bleeding hearts are a little slow.

It's up to YOU to get your best from me, not the other way around.
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#51 Consumer Comment

Profit is not a dirty word

AUTHOR: Robert - (U.S.A.)

It is obvious to me that you have never been a car salesman.Your ranting about "being ripped off" is just plain idiotic.
I''ve been a car salesman for 8 yrs, and am now the Sales Manager.I've made a lot of money in this profession, and I'm PROUD of what I do.This is not a charity, and who are you to decide what's "fair"? If you are such a moron that you do not research what you as the comsumer thinks is a fair price for the car then too bad for you.
I really have one comment for people like you;
" it's up to YOU, to get your best price from me,not the other way around".

And oh, by the way, you also want me to take your trade off your hands so that you do not have to sell it decause it's not easy to sell it huh?

I'll tell you what , push the print button on Kelly Blue Book and see if prints you a check.
Your want to get your best price, and not get ripped off by F&I.Here's how.

1. Sell your car to a private party so that the trade does not cloud the deal.(And don't forget not to make a profit on it).

2.Spend a few minutes getting prices from Edmunds on invoice and options and incentives.Determine what YOU think is a fair profit to the dealer.

3. If your going to finance, arrange your best rate with your bank.

But here is what really happens;
Hey, lets go look at cars and then argue price with the salesman, and lie that you have a better deal down the street. And you want us to buy your wreck, and you want a rate better than the buy rate even though you can't get that rate on your own from your bank because you don't do 4 million dollars a month with your bank, and oh yeah,your credit rating is a little shaky.
This site is a typical liberal crying game.I can't negotiate the price of milk with Wal mart,
and as long as the customer wants to negotiate there will be car salesman.I bet you want a lot of money for your house for sale though don't you.

Your site is a joke. I'm going to continue to try to profit on every car we sell, and if you want a better deal then you go get the training.
One more time because you bleeding hearts are a little slow.

It's up to YOU to get your best from me, not the other way around.
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#52 Consumer Comment

ITS ALL TRUE FOLKS!

AUTHOR: BRUCE - (U.S.A.)

Well, almost all true. I am a 10 year veteran of the car wars and have been in both sales and the finance office. I have worked for four dealerships and have found no appreciable differences in their business practices. IT IS UGLY! I made a strong point of trying to pursue the business ethically and found it impossible. If not outright lies, equivocation rules the day, but if they don't work, lies will do.

However, I don't think the problem lies in the training. Trainers know that there is a huge risk in teaching people deceit. These training firms are multi-million dollar organizations and my experience has been that they teach ethical sales tactics. Then the new trainee finds himself at the dealership and puts his new skills to work and finds that he is not making the $50,000 plus that was advertised. But there are guys there who are making well over that, frequently in six figures.

If one is money motivated, the curiousity will lead them to find out what the other guy is doing differently. The dealer really doesn't care how you sell. It's a bottom line business and I have never seen anyone who is selling a lot of cars get fired because of the way they do it. The manager has quotas, so he doesn't care how you do it either.

If it wasn't for deceit, the finance office would close. What I have seen (and done) in there would make your toes curl, and don't think that the banks don't know exactly what is going on. All they ask is if you are going to commit fraud, do it well. Don't make me call you on a fabrication. Be artful so I can justify ignoring it. And they do.

The only hope for the consumer is to be extremely well educated, because as our largest corporations have proved, this is what American capitalism has devolved into. Ethics are a tremendous weight around the neck of business. An F&I magazine that I used to receive actually had a full page cover that said "Ethics:Protect Your Dealership" (F&I Management and Technology, June/July 2001). It was introducing the idea of ethics being a good thing. Of course the spin was that the abuses are only in a tiny minority of the dealerships out there, based on lost law suits. Then why devote the cover to the issue?

In defense of the guys in the business, most of them honestly think that they are being ethical. Not really their fault, either, as our politicians, businessmen, and entertainment icons often are the example of how to get along in America. That example leaves much to be desired. But the guys believe "there is a little larceny in every sale" and that little bit is just the nature of doing business. That quote is one I have heard over and over. But they really don't understand how manipulative the business is. Thats most of them. The really top dogs, on the other hand, have it figured out. They don't do what they do by accident.

If you really want to know what is going on, I have written a book on the subject. In it you will find out exactly how a car salesmen is trained, and what each part of the process is supposed to accomplish. You will also learn how to protect yourself during the sale and in the F&I office. I have seen no other resourse for this info for the public. There are consumer tactics in there THAT WORK! It's not printed fancy, but it will save you thousands every time you use the techniques. Write victoryinc01@hotmail.com.

Here's a quick story to give you an idea of how ridiculous this can all get, and to make you realize you are alone. In Baltimore, a dealership bugged everyone of its sales cubicles. When the salesmen got up to confer with the manager, they would switch on the listening device so they could hear the consumers. They would find out their hidden concerns and be able to use this private information against the customer. When they were found out and reported to the DA, there was nothing they could do. IT WAS LEGAL! Remember Linda Tripp? This is a true story.

One more comment. Though in substance I am in agreement with the site here, I feel the tone is counter-productive. The holier-than-thou attitude here only makes people defensive and thus entrenched in their way. They will want to fight you, and I would, too. That further perpetuates the adversary relationship that already exists. This industry desperately needs reform, but the industry will need to become a partner in that reform if it is ever to take place. Education is the key, as customers that know what to look for are less likely to get abused, and those that are abused need to be more proactive in reporting these abuses, and not say "Oh, well, that's the car business".

Hey folks, it's your money!
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#53 Consumer Comment

This is all so SILLY

AUTHOR: Angelo - (U.S.A.)

I have to say that the more I read in this silly web-site, the more I want to laugh out loud at your ridiculous finger-pointing and blaming of car dealers as an excuse for the simple IGNORANCE of people like yourself!!

Grant cardone and Joe Verde do NOT teach sales people how to rip people off, in fact, they teach salespeople how to ETHICALLY sell cars to consumers. There is nothing illegal about making a profit. Just ask the people who pay you from the profit they make in whatever enterprise they happen to be in.

Next time you go to a restaurant, ask the waiter how much the owner paid for the piece of meat you ordered. Ask the grocer how much he pays for a botlle of pepsi that you gladly fork over your money for. Multiply that by the hundreds of bottles that the grocer sells to idiots like you and you'll see by percentage just how over-inflated their prices are.

The truth is, profit makes the world go round and the beauty of a free market system is that idiots like you can say no and take your business elsewhere if the price is too high or you feel you are being ripped off. Buy a Saturn, they got it all figured out. Here's the price, take it or leave it.

Don't blame others for the stupidity of your readers and yourselves.

This web-site is a JOKE!!!!
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#54 Consumer Suggestion

Get the facts first...

AUTHOR: Brent - (U.S.A.)

Two things are needed for living in the world today: learning how to be a good citizen and learning how to be a good consumer. Most people are either not willing or able to do either.

One of the most powerful tools to not "getting ripped off" (by the way, no one seems to define this phrase) is to have the information you need BEFORE HAND. Most people walk into a situation not knowing what they want and expecting a SALESPERSON to help them. By and large, most salespeople, including ones in the automotive sector, are honest and want the best for the customer. Because SALESPEOPLE sell for a living, they maximize their salaries by making the most money on a deal they can.

Most consumers that feel they have "been ripped off" after the transaction do so when they see a vehicle advertised the same day at a different dealer for less, they realize their bank could have given them a better rate or they go to a dealer who offers them a deal too good to be true (we finance anyone if you don't mind 25% interest). These are situations the consumer has control of. They just didn't do their homework, feel victimized and have to blame someone else. If I, as a sales professional, have taken my time, given my expertise, shown a customer a vehicle that meets all their wants and needs, and have come to an agreement with the customer on price, I have done my job by the CUSTOMER and deserve every penny that shows up on my commission check. Tens of thousands of car professionals do that every day without lying, cheating or stealing. And no, I am not new to the field. I have worked in every aspect of a car dealership from washing cars, selling parts, service and cars for over eighteen years.

Are there poor or outright BAD dealerships. Yes. Can a consumer find out who they are and avoid them? Yes. Do most people put a lot of effort into the second biggest investment (yes, it is an investment) of their life? NO! Want to get "ripped off"? Don't put any effort into your purchasing decision and buy a car because it's shiny and new, the way you would a CD at the local record shop.

Want to put dealerships out of business? Stop buying the fanciest, fastest, shiniest, keeping-up-with-the-joneses car out there. Americas appitite for something now gives way to dealers, honestly or dishonestly, who fill the need. Also, complain to the dealership, the BBB and the manufacturer EVEN IF YOU DON'T MAKE A PURCHASE!

Oh, and the training, like someone pointed out earlier, is focused around integrity, honesty and meeting and exceeding your customers expectations. They talk about overcoming objections because you, AS A TRAINED PROFESSIONAL WHO BELIEVES IN THE PRODUCT YOU ARE SELLING, are able to show how the product meets the customers wants and needs. If people are twisting this training and using it dishonestly then the consumer needs to ask as many questions as the sales professional they are dealing with.

Your idea about getting rid of salespeople and just having salaried consultants with product knowledge: that is called Saturn which reports the largest gross profits of any car line. Check out the "Car Buyers and Leasers Negotiating Bible" for good tips on how to be a good consumer and information on Saturn.

And one last thing: please don't put everyone in the same bag because they work in the same industry. I recall this .com bubble that popped a few years ago based on bad business models. Maybe some of the ones that survived have given way to sensationalism on a "Star Magazine" level to keep their hits up and their ad revenue coming in! ;)

Keep up the good work but be fair in doing it.
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#55 Consumer Comment

Car dealers have EARNED their bad reputation. Auto sales is the most CORRUPT retail sales market. I have NEVER met an honest car salesman.

AUTHOR: Joe - (U.S.A.)

I really had nothing against car dealers until being ripped off by City Mitsubishi in Jacksonville, FL.

I wondered how they learned to use deceptive and unfair tactics against me. Going to those sites mentioned above was a revelation. It is obvious that these car dealer schools are not their to train dealerships to make buying a car a pleasant experience.

I no problem with dealers making a profit off a sale, except when their charges are excessive to the point of the consumer paying almost double what it is worth before interest is included.

I was ripped off by Tony Turner and John Galeani at the above Mitsubishi dealer. They following things they did to me are as follows. 1. sold a demo car as new with over 700 mi, on the contract stated 24 mi.

2. Forced Fidelity Warrantee and Service Contract on RISC.

3. Refused to return keys of my car before signing contract seeing it was a rip off.

4. changing VIN # on contract to the 2001 4x2 demo Montero Sport from 4x4 2002 model (they had two contracts in the pile of paperwork for tag and title etc.) I only signed the contract after being detained in the finance office for five hours as mentioned in my rip off report on this dealership.

5. Spot delivery, two weeks later received call that financing fell through. Also sold trade in, refusing to refund $2500.00 when I said keep your piece of junk. Misled me stating the contract was still valid.

6. They were so agressive it would have required me to be in a violent confrontation with the above mentioned salesmen and other dealers to escape that disfranchise.

Tony Turner said to my face, The reason we are doing this is because you are in the mititary and we can get your money. The payments were $825.17 a month.

I tried to work out a agreement with Mitsubishi Motors Credit of America but they refused. So I voluntarily repo the car to PAPE Mitsubishi in Portland Maine where it was held over 6 months sold for $14100.00. with 6,098 mi.

They are a member of BBB. Their standards must be low for membership. MMCA has sent 2 collection agencies to collect almost $23000.00 from me.

This what happened from going to this dealership to look at cars and compare prices. I had no intention of buying on Oct 27, 2001 the day they plundered my finances.

If a dealer wants to try these same tactics on me again, there will be serious consequenses. In FL the Attorney General and DMV is on the car dealers side and the consumer is on their own.

CAR DEALERS HAVE EARNED THEIR BAD REPUTATION BY THEIR DECEPTIVE AND UNFAIR PRACTICES. I HAVE NEVER MET AN HONEST CAR SALESPERSON. THEY NEVER GIVE A DIRECT ANSWER TO QUESTIONS, JUST A BUNCH OF BALONEY.
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#56 Consumer Suggestion

David - let's chat about the difference ..The mortgage industry does not do "Spot Deliveries"

AUTHOR: The Great Thorn Consumer Advocate- - (U.S.A.)

David - let's chat about the difference between car dealers and real estate, OK?

First when buying a home, after a home buyer signs all documentation they can bet that that is the way it is. The numbers on their mortgage contract are what they can believe.

The mortgage industry does not do "Spot Deliveries" You know, have the buyer sign all the papers let them take the car home and lead the buyer to believe that it is a done deal. You know "APPROVED! DONE DEAL!

Then the dealer's F&I department will get out the "Shot Gun" and whack the buyers credit trying to find a bank that will give the dealer's F&I department some extra backend gross.

After the dealer and a bank agree to a much lower buy rate, Then the Trained Box Shark will Yank the buyer back down to the scene of the slime and incise the buyer to sign a new contract at a much high interest rate.

This is all deception and you and I know it. Car dealers have been getting away with all kinds of BS.

They know that the local TV stations and newspapers will never bash the big car dealers. David have you ever tried to buy a full page of advertising in a newspaper? Could cost you $4000, $5000 maybe up to $7000 bucks a day.

Do you think a newspaper would ever bit the big hands that feed them? NO WAY So knowing this, There is a great need for www.ripoffreport.com

The Rip Off Report has many advocates across the county. We love to help expose deception to protect consumers and help the victims. This is truly my calling and I love it.

Good day mate
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#57 Consumer Comment

Pay for great service ..Wow. It really looks that there is a definite bias against Dealers here.

AUTHOR: David - (U.S.A.)

The author of this site has plenty of negative opinions (that's all they are) about car dealers. I would challenge the author to also post a list of reputable dealers to make this website a true consumer advocacy site. I think that it may be a stretch for the author to do this because of his/her OBVIOUS bias. As far as the right way to deal with a customer,it always PAYS (key word) to be honest and forthcoming. You would not buy a house, a dog or even a sandwich from someone you do not trust to be honest to you. The product I sell will be a part of my customers lives for a long time. I make sure I am there for them from day one to the day of trade in. My customers have 24 hr access to me whether it's for a technical question or a ride home from the service dept. If I go on vacation I have a fellow salesperson available to provide the level of service my customers have come to expect. Wal-Mart can't/Won't do that, and they make a profit (bad word according to this website) The products I sell are made for the most part in the United States. Wal-mart can't say that, yet you are not complaing about the 150% mark-up on a pair of Boxer shorts. God forbid if I make a little money to send my children to college.
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#58 Consumer Suggestion

Check out all of these web sites, How to take your money ..the trainers BS!

AUTHOR: The Great Thorn - Rip-off Report Consumer Advocate - (U.S.A.)

Jason the point this person is trying to make is. That they want consumers to know that car sales people are being trained to SELL to everybody that comes on the lot. RIGHT NOW.

I think the this person wants car buyers to understand that they are dealing with people that are being trained on getting the biggest profitable car dealer as possible.

Car buyers need to do their homework before going to ANY car dealer.

Who is training car buyers on how to beat the car dealers at their dirty deceptive games? TELL ME JASON! not the credit unions, not the banks, not the newspapers, not your local TV stations and not your local talk radio stations.

Here is a big list of companies that go from car dealer to car dealer across the country and train car sales people. God only knows what they train car sales people to do to car buyers.

Go to all of these web sites and you think real hard as to what they teach car salesmen.

Here is the list, Go to them ALL, OK? Notice the name of the very first web site! That would make a car buyer feel real good, you think?

www.biggross.com

www.probac.com
www.nationalautotraining.com
www.appliedconcepts.net
www.grantcardone.com
www.davidlewis.com
www.jeffsacksandassociates.com
www.stukertraining.com
www.paulcummings.com
www.nationalautotraining.com
www.tewart.com
www.joeverde.com

Some trainers in the industry tell the sales people "Hey make them FEEL REAL good". "Make them think that YOU really like them". In my eyes, it is all BS

They say "build a relationship with your client", make them feel special. If you get the buyer to come back again and again, Guess what? they are now in their "COMFORT ZONE! meaning they like you. If you get the car buyer to like you, you NOW have the power to get MO MONEY.

No car buyer wants to make a sales person MAD that likes them. If you are a sales person and you get the buyer to like you, you know, make them feel like they are SPECIAL, you can bend them over and go DEEP and they will not complain, because you got them to "LIKE YOU", you became their FRIEND, It is all EMOTIONAL BULL CRAP!

This is all emotional BULL CRAP that they want pumped into car Buyer's head so the sales staff has the ability to PUMP MORE MONEY out of the car buyer.

They are trained to work on the woman, make her like you, make her feel special, act like you want to hear EVERYTHING she has to say.

Because once you get her on your side, you now have the power to bend her old man over and wack them into a VERY profitable car deal. You know a "BIG GROSS" car deal.

So think real hard before you talk to any kind of sales person. You must keep in mind that they only WANT YOUR MONEY, even if they kill you financially.

Their gain will be your PAIN!

just ask anybody that thinks they have a big car payment if they feel that they got bent over in some way. They can feel it, but they can't see where it came from.

I hope this helps my fellow Americans to think before going to any car dealer.
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#59 Consumer Suggestion

I don't get it!

AUTHOR: Jason - (U.S.A.)

What is so wrong with members of any profession in seeking out training to do their job more efficiently? The car business should be no exception. In any job I've ever had I've received training, some from internal sources, some from external sources--like those you mention. I've been a grocery clerk, a bread salesman, a snack food salesman, a state government employee, an insurance salesman, and a banker. In each I've been trained to be more efficient. With all the training I've received, the goal has always been efficiency.

I visited each website of each business you've mentioned and found none of them to be evil. It's interesting that you equate work efficiency in the car business to "taking more of the customer's money".

I guess I just don't get your point.
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#60 Consumer Comment

What people really feel.

AUTHOR: Scott - (U.S.A.)

I read this report and was stunned. I just could get over how much you were going on and on. Aparently you did get in a bad situation and regreted it.

But I have been in the buisness for over 5 years and I can tell you that the people that are the happiest are the ones that actully pay you a fair profitt. Because when they come back the treatment they receive is far better, you feel a need to keep them happy and they are. If no money was made on the deal then they are just like anyone else.

And i cant see buying anything expensive without a salesperson. I am willing to spend more money on an item if the salesperson is there to give me proper treatment. The way you propose is so cold and unpersonable. But it is available, I actully run the internet buisness here at my local dealership, and people still want to come in and talk to a salesperson.

Most people like the idea of someone helping them make the decision and dont mind spending a little money to do it. I do agree that there are some dealerships out there that take the wrong approach to selling and they make it hard on the rest of us, but as a rule we are governed as to how much money can be made on a car or truck, its called the back. They will no allow a car or truck to be financed over what they feel the car is trully worth. Just call and ask them! And what Joe Verde teaches is to help the consumer make a decision on an automobile with all the fact not just the price.

And he also teaches how to be fair and make it a win win situation. The consumer has to feel good about his purchase, whether its a day from now or 5 years. Most of our buisness is repeat and referral, and if everything was as bad as you let on we would all be out of a job!
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#61 Consumer Comment

You must have paid too much

AUTHOR: William - (U.S.A.)

I can see in your comments you are a very bitter person, and very bitter toward the car industry. You apparently got "ripped-off" in a prior automotive deal and this is your outlet. It's like the kid who got shoved in the locker growing up and now when he is older he is bitter toward anyone bigger than him. It is an understandable bitterness, but you need some counseling. You have no idea how the car business works or how many dealers actually loose money, or profit very little in this industry. Start learning something about what you are commenting on before you go ranting and raving about it.
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#62 Consumer Suggestion

Untrained Salespeople

AUTHOR: kelly - ()

As a car salesman going on 3 years now I have been exposed to Joe Verde and Grant Cardone methods. You can say what you want about Joe Verde, but Grant Cardone teaches how to make the car buying experience easy for the customer.



It teaches to fully disclose information to the customer, to give the customer options, and so on. It takes training to combat all this false information that sources like Edmunds.com and Consumer Reports about car prices and trade in values.



By the way I havent come across any non-profit car dealerships, last time I checked it was ok for a business to be profitable. If you want a free car you should learn to hot-wire them.

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Yes Jeff,



You might very well be a legitimate sales manager, might, .. but I have to say again, I find it hard to believe, you just can't get to your position unless you've screwed your share of customers for your boss, there's just no other way! . I hate to say it, but, it's become the American business way/practice.



Next, you say, and I quote you, Make sure you also shop at a reputable dealership. Some of the side, back street dealerships have bad business practices. Jeff, sorry to tell you this, maybe that's the way it was years ago, but not any more, it's the big main street/major highway dealers as well doing the royal screw jobs to the consumer, ..telling them, ..Go ahead, sue me ..when the dealer knows d**n well, it will cost the consumer more to sue, knowing in most cases they will walk away not doing anything.



I do agree though, if you do buy a car, buy from the bigger dealers, it's easier to get at them to do the right thing after you've been screwed.



Any consumer ripped off by a dealer should file your own Rip-off Report in detail, then contact us at Rip-off Report.com .



ED Magedson

EDitor@ripoffreport.com
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#64 Consumer Comment

NOT ALL CAR DEALERSHIPS ARE THE SAME.....

AUTHOR: Jeff - ()

I was given a copy of this web site by a friend and felt the need to send a reply.

I have been in the car business for 5 years now. I have sold cars, been a finance manager and now the sales manager for my dealership. I did not get this far by ripping people off. We are highly judged and keep our employment by our customer service scores.



The car business has a terrible reputation because of the bad business practices displayed years ago in the automobile industry.



I have been traines since day one to help the client and treat everyone as a buyer.

I have helped people that have had bad car buying

experiences elsewhere have great experiences with me. I have helped people with credit problems that no one else would help. I have sold to tuff customers that can buy anything and know it! I have sold to the rich, poor, rude, nice etc.



We provide a service and are proud to do so.

My suggestion to the car buying public is to do your homework.



Use Kelly Blue Book to find out the approximate trade value of your car. Use Edmunds True Market Value to help you negotiate.



Make sure you also shop at a reputable dealership. Some of the side, back street dealerships have bad business practices. Choose wisely who you choose to do business with.



We are one of the only professions that allow the customer to negotiate. If people do not like to negotiate then there are places that sell cars at full retail. (Saturn,Carmax etc)



I love what I do and look forward to work everyday.



I also have seen Grant Cardone 5 times and what he teaches is how to sell cars without confrontation and to sell cars the way the buyer wants to purchase them. GIVE, GIVE, GIVE! I did not write this to bash anyone and I hope to have the same respect back.



If you love cars and like to help people make one of the best and largest decisions of there life...try selling cars. ( Not to mention it is one of the highest paid professions out there!)
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#65 0

EDitor's comment to the above, Chris, you should be insulted.

AUTHOR: - ()

Chris,



You say you're insulted, you should be and that's good. This means you might have a conscience. Obviously you have not been selling cars that long. Maybe you should find another line of work.



You said I should come up with a solution; I did come up with a solution it's in my EDitorial above. I already relieved several very positive e-mails from around the country regarding the above from three sales people in the business for many years and one auto dealer saying we gave him something to think about.



And, I never said all car sales people are bad. My comment was referring specifically to the Sales Manager, and you can include Finance Managers as well. Again, anyone who is The Sales Manager or Finance Manager at a car dealership, in my opinion, only got there by making lots of money for the owner, screwing many consumers along the way. We're all entitled to our opinion.



How do I make money you ask, isn't it obvious that here at Rip-off Reprot.com / badbusinessbureau.com, we help consumers for free and except only donations from them? No one pays us up front for anything and the donations are very limited to say the least. We've helped more people than we will ever know.



ED Magedson

EDitor@RipoffReport.com

badbusinessbureau.com

www.ripoffreport.com



Don't let them get away with it.

Make sure they make the Rip-off Report!



We are not lawyers.

We are not a collection agency.



We are Consumer Advocates.

...the victims' advocate



WE are Civil and Human Rights Activists



We are a Nationwide Consumer Reporting News Agency

...by consumers, for consumers
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#66 Consumer Suggestion

letter to the editor

AUTHOR: chris - ()

The only sales training i ever recieved was how to make the customer feel comfortable in a large decision. Everyone has the right to say no and it is very illegal to change contracts. All contracts have signatures so how does one change them after the signing. Banks finance these loans so they must be corrupt as well. Your probably thinking "yes, they are." but i bet you still have a savings account. I'm insulted by your letters and how you handle yourself responding to them. You say i should come up with solutions but you have none yourself. You should try internet shopping and have your printer, print you a vehicle. All i ask is for you and people with your views to stay out of my face and avoid being "ripped off" by never stepping on another car lot again. I have only one question for you what do you do to make money?
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#67 0

EDitor's Response to the Above Comment

AUTHOR: - ()

James / John / Harvey,



Thanks for the lesson in Economics, Harvey. You are so full of it. Are you saying that the unprincipled business ethics of ENRON, MCI and most of the car dealerships in America are the bastions of our way of life? Let me give you a lesson in politics... in the political continuum theory, radical and reactionary extremes are nearly the same philosophies and are both abusive of the people. I am not against sales personnel or the sales profession, just sales based on lies and deception.



But I am sure your head is so full of the garbage pumped in there when you went through one of those special car sales programs, so you would know how to take more of the customer's money dishonestly, that you are unable to see the whole picture, right?



How many times have you:



Changed the customers contract after they signed it, without the customer's knowledge?



Told a customer on the phone, "hey, come-on down, we have that very car your looking for" ..then when the customer gets there, you push them into something else because the auto they described to you did not exist on your lot? hmmmm



Any of this ring a bell?



If you can make money legitimately with out screwing your customers, I would have no problem, but this business has the reputation it does because it is generally true. That's why calling someone a "used car salesman" is a euphemism for a lying scumbag, like you. How else could you have ever make Sales Manager?
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#68 Consumer Comment

In re: Fire all the Salesmen

AUTHOR: JAMES - ()

Mr. Magedson:



As much as you may detest salespeople, the fact of the matter is that cars are not bought, they are sold. If dealerships did away with salesmen, they would go out of business, because no one would buy.



There may be plenty of bad salesmen out there, but they are weeded out of the business, because they can't make a living. People will naturally procrastinate and hesitate to buy. It is esier to do nothing then to make a decision.



The salesman makes the deal, moves the iron and is ultimately responsible for the success of the dealership, the manufacturer, the bank, the manufacturer's suppliers, the steel mills, the mines and plants associated with the manufacturer of the car, the transporters who bring them to the dealership, the tax revenue that supports your town, and all the businesses tied into it, down to the dry cleaner and sandwich shop.



We are all here to make money, and there is nothing wrong with that. If people want to take umbrage at us making money then they need to look around to places where the profit motive isn't a consideration. My suggestion is N. Korea or Cuba, because all of the other communist countries are

gone.
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#69 0

EDitor's Response to the Simpleton Above

AUTHOR: - ()

John,



Yes, live and learn indeed. The auto retail business is riddled with and is a target for corruption. It is specifically covered in the RICO statutes. Organized crime uses the industry to launder money for a variety of illicit businesses.



Perhaps this is why it is such a poor "investment." Please don't muddy the water with spurious information. The points you raise are not cogent. Please, focus on the issues; vis. corruption in your industry. Why don't you use your energy to come up with solutions instead of excuses.



Also, after you (the auto dealer) screwed your customer on the new auto deal, what about all the profits from the auto repairs the dealer makes after the sale, not to mention all the fraud that goes on when repairing these vehicles? As it is, the inflated hourly rate is ridiculous and on top of that the dealers further screw the consumer when they rate their auto repairs using the inflated Mitchell Guide or one similar to it.



And you're a sales Manager, you're one of the biggest thieves of all, you're the leader of the pack! You got your job because you successfully screwed so many customers, making a lot of money for the dealer. How else do you get to be a Sales Manager? Your job should be eliminated. You should be eliminated. See the EDitortial above.



ED Magedson

EDitor@ripoffreport.com
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#70 Consumer Comment

Who's taking my money?

AUTHOR: JOHN - ()

I have experience as a general manager of a large used/new car dealership and also have managed a large retail outlet store. The last time I checked, the profit margins in retail merchandise stores were substantially higher than that of any dealership anywhere.



The fact that the consumer simply pays the massive profits to a retail merchandise outlet in smaller installments makes the situation seem better. Imagine tallying all of your grocery and "discount superstore" purchases for a lifetime and doing the same with your automobile expendetures. The profit you gave to those retailers would more than triple the percentage of the vehicle profits. Believe me I know.



And besides, if the auto sales industry is making "soooo" much money off the consumers why does the New York Stock Exchange list the auto sales industry as one of the top ten worst profit returning industries to invest your money?

My advice to this editor...



Every consumer has the opportunity to say yes or no to goods or services. If you feel you paid too much for a product based on knowledge gained after the fact, well you certainly won't next time. Live and learn.
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#71 0

EDitor's Opinion: ..Here's an idea. Let's fire all the sales staff .. And, Auto Dealers, stop misrepresenting Demo vehicles as new

AUTHOR: - ()

The way the Auto business is set up, salespeople are forced to eventually lie, or they will not make any money. The honest salespeople don't last long, because they cannot lie. Show me a successful car salesman, you are showing me a big liar.



Here's an idea. Let's fire all the sales staff and just mark the very best price on all of the cars, and have a computer there to pick your options when purchasing a new vehicle. ..the dealer and the consumer will save money.



Type your credit info into a computer to qualify for the best car loan available. Castrate all the finance managers and ship them all to a 3rd world country.



All used vehicles should have the very best price clearly marked on the window with the complete (carfax) history.



Think about all the payroll the dealer would save!

Think about all the customers that would want to buy and save!



All the dealer would need is a few salaried people who are knowledgeable about the cars to answer any questions. NO percentage employees, that will only breed dishonesty.



For further expansion of the above idea, just contact the EDitor.



ED Magedson

EDitor@ripoffreport.com



PS

...And, Auto Dealers, stop misrepresenting Demo vehicles as new, when you know they were NOT used as demo's at your dealership, as the managers car, or that is was a program car used by an executive, ..when you know d**n well, the car you're selling was an abused rental from a car rental company like Avis, Hertz or Enterprise. Almost all car dealers purchase these mistreated vehicles, misrepresenting their history. Most of the time this information will not come up through carfax because of the way the new car dealers and the car rental companies are allowed to register them.



Coming soon, EDitor's 12 month investigation on Rental Cars being secretly sold as New Demo's.
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#72 Consumer Comment

In re: Auto Sales Trainers ...We are not all liars and thieves

AUTHOR: James - ()

Like every other business, progressive, customer-oriented car dealerships retain trainers to teach sales techniques to new salespeople and to continue training experienced salespeople.



This business is not an easy one to succeed in. sales-people need to learn how to present features and benefits of the vehicles, effectively compare them with the competition.



How to sell the value in the vehicle. How to

handle customers. How to identify customer needs and present the vehicle that best fills the customers needs.



And not all customers come into a dealership knowing what they want, what they can afford, which vehicle may best serve them. The Sales Training companies you criticize provide a

a valuable service to the dealers, the salespeople and to the consumers. Customers deserve to be assisted by knowledgeable, informed professional salespeople.



The car business is the poeple business. Successful dealerships and salespeople know that by providing service to the consumer they will be rewarded by the consumer.



I can tell you from personal experience that

Joe Verde teaches ethical business practices. He

tells salespeople to listen to customers to be

attentive to their needs and desires. He teaches

consultative customer-focused sales techniques.

A professional salesperson is the customers best

advocate.



We are not all liars and thieves in the car business. We are hard working people providing a service and supporting our families.



In this country, we have embraced the capitalist

system and no one should be surprised or upset that a business wants to maximize it's opportunities to make a profit. That is the American Way.
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#73 Consumer Comment

How to avoid being ripped off..

AUTHOR: Michael - ()

One way to avoid being ripped off at a car dealer is to walk in, pay the price on the window and stop whining. You seem to not whine about the gas company, the utility company, the grocery store etc.



When was the last time you called up the phone or utility company and said, hey!!! you are charging me too much....how you give me your best price and I will think about it? Or just tell the car dealer some lies, like....oh yeah, the other dealer knocked off $10,000 so you better sharpen your pencil.



I don't work for Joe Verde or Grant Cardone or others, but....they train salespeople just like all good businesses do. People pay ridiculous prices on all sorts of goods and services all the time. You have to be sharp....and by the way, most of the "trainers" teach how to handle difficult customers who expect everything with a bad attitude and how to get someone to like and trust them.
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