• Report: #36168

Complaint Review: Bell Road Toyota

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  • Submitted: Sun, November 24, 2002
  • Updated: Thu, July 19, 2012

  • Reported By:Albuquerque New Mexico
Bell Road Toyota
2020 west Bell Road Phoenix, Arizona United States of America

Bell Road Toyota ripoff Due to the preying capitlist pushers lies, and decption, manipulation ends with the horrific loss of my brother life.. Phoenix Arizona *EDitor's Comments Rip-off Report Investigation

*Consumer Comment: I feel Bell Road Toyota SUCKS CANAL WATER

*Consumer Comment: Who knows the truth?

*Consumer Comment: I met up with Brian's family

*Consumer Comment: Mark is right

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: The Truth About What Happened At Bell Rd Toyota That Day

*Consumer Suggestion: Some states do not allow the finance company to sell the lease vehicle at lease end

*Consumer Suggestion: When negotiating a lease remember to look it over completely and do not trust anything they say without proof.

*Consumer Suggestion: When negotiating a lease remember to look it over completely and do not trust anything they say without proof.

*Consumer Suggestion: When negotiating a lease remember to look it over completely and do not trust anything they say without proof.

*Consumer Suggestion: When negotiating a lease remember to look it over completely and do not trust anything they say without proof.

*Consumer Comment: With car dealers like this one, who needs Bin Laden? This place does a better job being a threat to service members.

*Consumer Suggestion: I'm not surprised at this dealer's tactics. It's not new for car dealers to prey on the military.

*Consumer Comment: Truth!!! It's called FREE ENTERPRISE, you dope!

*Consumer Suggestion: Angelo Read this

*Consumer Comment: Get It In WRITING!!!

*Consumer Suggestion: Michael, what started the trouble is the fact that Bell Road Toyota would not honor their word!

*Consumer Suggestion: Esprit de Corps ... Esprit de America

*Consumer Comment: Car Buyers beware in Arizona

*Consumer Comment: got personal

*Consumer Comment: sad sad sad

*0: EDitor's Staff Response ...We are not out here to stop people from making money.

*Consumer Suggestion: Sick

*Consumer Comment: Arizona Residents, You Are Called to Active Duty!

*Consumer Comment: Arizona Residents, You Are Called to Active Duty!

*Consumer Comment: Fight the good fight

*Consumer Comment: You Forgot Something

*0: Rip-off Report Investigation: ...The Real Story

*Consumer Comment: No Buyers Remorse Law in Arizona

*Consumer Comment: No Buyers Remorse Law in Arizona

*Consumer Comment: No Buyers Remorse Law in Arizona

*Consumer Comment: Get Real !!!!

*Consumer Comment: Bob we must not forget about the extreme sales pressure car dealers use.

*Consumer Comment: A Most Sad Story

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Bell Road Toyota Phoenix Arizona

The Following letter was sent to Senator John McCain on November 5th, 2002 conerning the needless antaganism, and provcation due to apparent greed motivated sales people at Bell Road Toyota.

Senator John McCain 4450 South Rural Road Suite B-130 Tempe, AZ 85282

RE: Chief Warrant Officer II L. Brian Callan

Dear Senator McCain:

I am extremely saddened to inform you of the passing of my brother, CWO II L. Brian Callan on 1 September 2002. I know my brother wrote to you on many occasions, and he told me you and your staff were helpful and sincere. It is both as a courtesy and my duty to explain our frustrations at the factors that led to our horrible and tragic loss.

I, too, am a 100% Service Connected disabled veteran. I served in the USN Seabees from 1980-1986. I reside in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I medically retired from the Albuquerque Public Schools system as an educator. I advise and support my young adult children in Albuquerque where they attend community college. I am writing to you on behalf of Brian's entire family.

As you may be aware, Brian was a highly decorated Marine Corps Officer with multiple combat experiences over the seventeen and a half years of his enlistment. He was an officer and a gentleman, respected, admired, loved and appreciated. His opportunity to continue his career as a Marine ended shortly after injuring his neck diving into a foxhole, during gunfire, under darkness and smoke in Somalia. He suffered greatly from two neck surgeries, and a severe (and well-documented) case of PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome) from participation in five combat missions, with minimal medical support from the VA medical center.

The following is a synopsis of Brian's demise:

Brian was negotiating with Bell Road Toyota on the prospect of purchasing or leasing a new truck. Before, during, and after, his negotiations he had conferred via cell phone to another of our brothers (Bob) about his decision-making process and his understanding of terms offered by the salespeople at Bell Road Toyota. Brian told Bob that a salesman had told him in no uncertain terms that, whatever decision he might make, he would have THREE DAYS to change his mind about the deal--lease or sale.

On Saturday, August 31, Brian signed a lease agreement for the truck. That evening he already knew he wanted to exercise the incentive of three days to change his agreement to purchase. Sunday morning he called Bell Road Toyota and spoke with Bob Stoup, sales manger, who was rude, unwilling to renegotiate, or even continue to help resolve the issue (Brian had written down notes during his conversation). Brian drove the new leased truck to the dealership, still expecting Bell Road Toyota to honor their three-day option incentive. When he arrived, he attempted to renegotiate the option for the outright sale or buying of the truck and terminate the lease option. Again, this dealership's negative and disgraceful business practices negated further discussion.

In an apparent attempt to gain their attention and demand common courtesy and respect (remember, he was suffering from PTSD, and keenly sensitive to his surroundings), Brian grabbed a shotgun from his vehicle. He soon fired a round into the gravel. Then he went inside and demanded someone with the appropriate authority to fulfill the option incentive and change from a lease to a sale. He went outside where two police officers with weapons drawn, ordered him to disarm. Next he apparently pointed the weapon under his chin saying, This place f***ed me. Without intervention from the police, Brian then cleared his spent round,(repeated, This place F***ed me) cocked and blew out his chest. He died within seconds.

I believe my brother was overmedicated, under his VA doctor's orders (a list can be furnished on request). He also received minimal medical treatment and follow-through. Then, with the deliberate misleading, ill-advised, manipulative business practices employed by Bell Road Toyota all this added up to the loss of CWO II L. Brian Callan, my brother, a father, grandfather, son, uncle, leader, neighbor, friend, and war veteran.



We are concerned about other veterans being overmedicated and untreated, with or without medical care. We are concerned that preying' capitalist pushers, like those at Bell Road Toyota will create more violence and disharmony in our communities. Brian was on a limited income and I believe Bell Road Toyota knew his only source of income was from the VA, as 100% permanent and total disability.

We have also been contacted by individuals who have shared their stories of misdealings with Bell Road Toyota. We have contacted the Better Business Bureau, but received no support and weren't allowed to make a complaint. We have contacted the Arizona Attorney General, and were told they could not intervene. We have contacted Bell Road Toyota and requested them to maintain any and all evidence, they referred us to their attorney. We requested the Phoenix Police Department to maintain all evidence related to this case, they referred us to another department. We requested an autopsy report and exam, including a toxicology report on what drugs were in Brian's system at the time of his death and we continue to wait for that report.

I am concerned about the lack of training and professionalism of salesmen like those at Bell Road Toyota. I also am concerned about the lack of response from the Phoenix VA Regional Office as to burial claim filed and that his death is recognized as service-connected. My brother has two young adult children and two grandchildren who depend on continued educational benefits. Where is the VA?

My brother was, and continues to be a very inspirational man to many people. He was the quintessential Marine who gave all of himself to the Corps and country. I would have preferred he was writing to you on something he was exploring at the time of his deatha possible collaboration between the VA Medical Center and Naturopathic Medicine, in treatment of veterans and veteran-related health issues, specifically HIS.

.

Good Luck with leading our country. Continue to work hard for this country. We appreciate all you have endured and accomplished.

Sincerely,

Sean Callan and Family of L. Brian Callan

The Phoenix NewTimes recent cover story (November 20, 2002)about my brother did not stress the negative and deceptive bussiness practices of Bell Road Toyota. In fact, they allowed the sales manager to lie again publicy in that article. Did you notice the arrogance of the salesmen? The sales manager claims he was willing to change his lease to a sale, to what he said was a $27,000 truck. Too bad the lease contract lists the sale price at $24,000, less his trade in, which brought the truck down to $19,000. Too bad this human being didn't have the backbone or honesty to work with Brian, when brian was making every possible effort to handle things appropriately.



Brian would be alive today had BRT acted in reasonable, honorable above the board and without false or misleading incentives. BRT is one man short of having an honable man on the sales lot. My brother sacrificed, in the name of democracy, only for the opportunity to be taken advantage by capitalism, unsrupulous business practices, and individuals at BRT.

My brother did not go there to die that day, nor did he go to hurt anyone. Everyone knows that car dealers have qoutas at the end of the month, and there is more money that can be sucked out of the buyer who doesn't have buying power (cash)! A family friend went to BRT and without identifying himself, had a salesmen tell him they would have changed the deal when the boss got off the toilet.

When my other brothers, and son, and nephew, went to pick up Brians Trade in, they were met with hostility and provacational and insulting remarks. Some staff were observed to have been making faces and mocking gestures at my brothers who were dealing with ignorant or uniformed staff, apparently incapable of handling sensitve, serious issues.

Brian was a very active, gifted and motivated student. He won and earned many an acolade during his high school years from participation in sports, clubs, student government and others. To Honor the memory, spirit, pride and excellence we have established the, L. Brian Callan WRHS Memorial Fund. The money will be maintained by Wells Fargo Banks. All contributions are considered Tax deductable. Our shared vision is to create the Window Rock High School annual Spirit Award as well as help establish an ROTC program and the general student fund with WRHS Principal Pauletta White.

Sean Albuquerque, New Mexico

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This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 11/24/2002 11:56 PM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Bell-Road-Toyota/Phoenix-Arizona-85023/Bell-Road-Toyota-ripoff-Due-to-the-preying-capitlist-pushers-lies-and-decption-manipulat-36168. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.

Ripoff Report has an exclusive license to this report. It may not be copied without the written permission of Ripoff Report.

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#1 Consumer Comment

I feel Bell Road Toyota SUCKS CANAL WATER

AUTHOR: Auto dealer fraud Investigator - ()

I feel Joe the GM at bell road toyota is a a** and is UNTRUSTING buy at your own risk car buyers. fools and their money are SOON PARTED 

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#2 Consumer Comment

Who knows the truth?

AUTHOR: Mike - (U.S.A.)

First of all it is one person's word against the other and only god knows the truth unless it was written.

As a previous motorcycle dealership owner I can not tell you how many times a customer would call to tell me a story of what a sales person had promised to them and wanted me to step up to the plate and honor those promises. I always loved the back stepping these people do when they find out I was the so called salesperson they were speaking about and I'd go down the line stating the factual conversation and every time they'd just go away. One lady laughed and said "you can't blame me for trying". What about the customers who lie, cheat, and steal against the car dealers? I could rant and rave about this let's move on to a solution to this particular problem.

I was once ripped off by a car dealer on Bell road back in 1983 or 1984 and signed partially blank paper work at the age of 20 swearing I'd never let that happen again.

As just about everybody knows there is so much legal paper work nobody takes the time to read it and just signs. If a 3 day buyer's remorse was put into effect people wouldn't have to rent cars and trucks they can just buy one and then take it back, so, obviously that is not a reasonable solution. Every customer should be required to sign a document in large type stating "you should never sign any documents that are not completely filled out" and "All sales are final and contrary to belief there is no 3 day buyer's remorse law".

I would venture to say what probably happened in this case is a friend of Brian told him about the 3 day buyers remorse law (which is only valid if the sales person comes to you) and then mentioned it to the sales person at Bell Toyota who didn't dispute it and so Brian trustingly assumed it was true.

Buying an auto is a pain in the rear because we all know the dealer is trying to get every penny they can just like when you sell your own used vehicle or home, you're trying to get every penny you can. So don't bash this dealer unless you've read a document from Bell Toyota stating the customer could return the vehicle and did not. There are just as many lying customers as Dealers. Base your judgments on facts not "I think he could be telling the truth".
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#3 Consumer Comment

I met up with Brian's family

AUTHOR: Stick - (U.S.A.)

The problem we have here is that from what I was told Bell Road Toyota did not want to honor their word. This guy PROUDLY served our country and I was told he got BENT OVER!

If Brian took his life in front of a local post office the Local media would have been all over this story. given the fact that he ended his life at a local car dealer NO LOCAL media had the balls to to a story on a TRUE AMERICAN combat vet's life and times.

SO many in the local media love the auto industry's BIG advertising $$$$ they tend to look the other way when things like this happen.

Try to get Bruce Jacobs at 550 KFYI to chat about this. NO WAY! I feel he has NO BACK BONE!

Many in the auto industry know that the media will not expose storys like this because the LOVE the big bucks they get from car dealers.

i tell car buyers to NEVER buy a car, new or used from a car dealer they like or love. Buy from a car dealer you F###KING hate. Fun them clowns through the dirt. Never care what you say to them. You can be the F###K EEEE or the F###KER.

Car dealers know that nobody in the media has the balls to expose scams in the auto industry.

Call up 550 KFYI and ask for their sales department and ask hom much they charge for 30 second spots. Call up Bruce Jacobs at 602-260-5394 and ask him why he does not have the balls to chat with Stick LIVE ON THE AIR about the many Rip Off Reports that many local car dealers have.

Email Bruce Jacobs at brucejacobs@kfyi.com and try to get him to chat LIVE ON THE AIR about car dealer Rip Off Reports. He has NO BALLS!

Many car buyers get BENT OVER, because the media will not expose scams/Rip Off Reports about the auto dealers and how they SCREW car buyers.

Email The president of Ford Motor Corp William Clay Ford @ wford@ford.com and ask William Clay Ford why many in the auto industry do not care as to how car dealers BEND the car buyers OVER!

Post his replys on this Rip Off Report. I can't wait to read them!
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#4 Consumer Comment

Mark is right

AUTHOR: Robert - (U.S.A.)

He may not have been very tactful, but he is 100% CORRECT.

Your brother should have been in a VA hospital, not out in public. He was mentally ill. Why did he have access to a shotgun in his condition? Why didn't the family step up and take away his firearms? Why didn't the family take care of him?

I get the feeling Mark was a Jarhead. No other branch tells it as bluntly as we do.

My brother is in Arlington National Cemetary due to a bad decision on his part. I do not blame the Marine Corps, nor anyone else for his death. It happened, and I still mourn the loss. Please do the same properly by stopping the blame game. Cindy Sheehan has made a fool of herself by dishonoring her son's wishes. Blaming a car dealership for your brother killing himself is the same.

Not all of us who served complain about what we went through.
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#5 UPDATE EX-employee responds

The Truth About What Happened At Bell Rd Toyota That Day

AUTHOR: Nathan - (U.S.A.)

First off i will Say I am sorry for the loss of Brian, but you need to know that things at Toyota that day did not happen the way it is being told here. I would know because I was the person that your brother walked into the dealership and put a shotgun to my head while I was on the phone with 911 operators. So in all aspects you and your family weren't the only ones who's lifes were changed that day.I was not involved in the deal but was brought into it by a man that was so mentally ill, that he should not have been even on the streets. I do not work for the company any longer due to this matter.
In my opinion you should be pointing your fingers the other way, more towards yourselves an the VA administration for not getting him the help he needed.
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#6 Consumer Suggestion

Some states do not allow the finance company to sell the lease vehicle at lease end

AUTHOR: Krista - (U.S.A.)

Just want to clarify the last response.
FIRST... There is NO interest on a lease. You will be charged administration fees, but NOT interest.

Some states do not allow the finance company to sell the lease vehicle at lease end to the customer, so if they tell you there is no purchase price, that may be the case. IF so, go to the dealer, they can act as the necessary third party.

The dealer can, at lease end and sometimes up to 6 months before, get a lower buyout price on the vehicle than the lessee and can pass some of those savings on. Say you get a price for 20,000 but the dealer gets a price at 15,000, you may end up getting the car for 17,000 yes the dealer made money, but is that so bad?

Milage.... don't lease if you drive alot. UNLESS, you plan on buying the car later.

Most finance companies only do closed ended leases which means that if you choose to return the vehicle at the end, you pay only for excessive wear, tear, and milage and if they sell the vehicle for less than they want too bad for them. Say you return the vehicle with a purchase price of 20,000 and you have 1,000 over on milage or wear, The finance company would expect to sell the vehicle for 19,000 thus getting the full 20,000. HOWEVER, if they sell it for 18,000... too bad, they cannot collect more from you, only the 1,000. BUT, if the vehicle (and this never happens) sells for more than expected, you would get a credit. say it sells for 19,500. you only have to pay 500, not the 1,000. Or if it sells for 25,000. you get 5,000.

YES the dealer does usually add $500 to the end value when writing the deal, that's so that when you come back to buy it hopefully, they will make at least that much.

Hope that helped to clarify a few things.
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#7 Consumer Suggestion

When negotiating a lease remember to look it over completely and do not trust anything they say without proof.

AUTHOR: Robert - (U.S.A.)

All of the discussions have fairly well illuminated the personalities involved and the character of the car dealership. What has been mischaracterised is the essence of what a lease is. There seems to be a general idea that a lease is an evil thing, entered into by those who wish to buy a car over their station in life.
While this is true in more than a few instances, it is not true for most. A lease is not a mystery. One can faily accurately consider a lease as a loan with the option to give the car back to the bank at a predetermined price after a set number of years. To calculate the lease rate the dealer estimates what the value of the vehicle will be at the end of the lease period. He then calculates a payment stream which reflects a rate of interest and an amortization of the difference between the purchase pricce and the value at the end of the lease. If the difference is $4,800 and the term is 24 months the lease will cost $200 per month for depreciation and whatever the interest is at the rate offered by the financial institution. There are generally some extra charges, ie. lease origination fee of $450, clean up fee, mileage rate for over mileage, etc.

When the lease period is up the customer generally has the right to purchase the vehicle at the predetermined price. Therein lies the secret of leasing. If the dealer under-estimates the value of the vehicle at the end of the lease it will be offered to you at a very attractive price. If the dealer over-estimates the value of the vehicle the price will be unattractive and you walk away. If you buy the vehicle at the end of the lease and pay it off you will find that the overall cost is not a whole lot more than if you purchased the car in the beginning. If the car turns out to be a lemon that no one would touch with aten foot pole you have unloaded it at a price which you could never have gotten had you wanted out of the purchase at the same point in time.

Now, how do you profit from this? First, only deal with dealers who are financed by the automotive company. GMAC and Ford Financial are good and I don't think tha Chrysler has a finance company as they sold it in the early eighties to keep afloat. If you are a businessman and want to drive a luxury car, a lease is ideal. Look for one at the end of the model year. The beginning price is negotiated with the dealer, and that is what he will get paid by GMAC. The value at the end of the lease is determined by GMAC as is the interest rate. If you get a two year lease the end value is quite good so the depreciation is not bad. If you get the same car and use a three year lease, the end value is not much less. Therefore, the amount of depreciation is spread over three years and the amount to be covered is not that mush more than the two year lease. At the end of the lease you will generally find that the buy out price is much higher than you would be willing to pay to buy the car. As a matter of fact you can probably go to the other side of the lot and buy the same car at a lower price. the loss gets eaten by GMAC. They rationalize this by making a profit on the front end and it helps to meet their production quota. If this seems to good to be true it must be remembered that sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. Generally if you lease a vehicle which is out of favor and in excess supply you can negotiate a discounted purchase price. This lowers, dollar for dollar, the amount which will be amortized over the term of the lease. The magic comes due to the fact that the finance companies will generally have a fixed end value which is based on a percentage of the sticker price, no matter how much it was discounted to get it to sell. As a matter of fact, since some options can be bought at less than the discounted value at the end of the lease, adding them can actually lower the monthly payment. A set of fance, factory, wheels can add $1,500 to the sticker and $700 to the purchase price due to the mark-up. Since the car will be valued at more than 50% at the end of a three year lease the amout to spread over the lease is less than the return and the price is a little lower. If you don't buy the vehicle at lease end you save and GMAC loses. If the car is out of favor today it will probably be out of favor at the end of the lease. Therefore, you are getting the option to walk away from a car that is not worth what you would owe had you bought it. For once you get to stick it to them. If you are over on your mioles you can probably get them to forgive a reasonable amount if you lease another car. On the other hand, try to lease a popular car and you find the dark side of leasing. If the lease calls for an end value that is too low you can re-coup the loss by buying the car cheap. If the end value is too high, you get a cheap lease and walk away from it. The danger is in getting into a lease with the worst of both worlds. If you are offered a lease with either no buy-out option, a negotiated buy-out option or a buy-out option with onerous charges. There is absolutely no advantage to a negotiated lease price at the end of the lease. If the price is too high they have to lower it to get you to buy. If it is too high you have them by the short hairs and get to take advantage of the price and you monthly charges ahve been artificially low. Usually there is a charge of $500 or so that is added to the estimated end value. If the extra charges are worth the option to get out of the car with no extra risk, then go for it. You are getting value for your money. If the interest rate is too high or if the end value purchase price is listed as being open to negotiation at the end of the lease, run like Bin-Laden at an American Legion convention. DO NOT LEAVE ANYTHING OPEN AFTER THE LEASE IS SIGNED. The only time you have leverage is when you have the money and they have the vehicle.

When negotiating a lease remember to look it over completely and do not trust anything they say without proof. Most car salesmen have a vague understanding, at best, of how a lease works. Not all finance managers understand them either.
To wrap this up, if you want to drive a high depreciation vehicle, don't run the mileage past about 15,000 per year and want a new car regularly, leasing is a good deal. If you like to drive the wheels off the car and keep it until they stop making parts, it isn't. The secret is to keep an open mind and look for the opportunity to take advantage of the beaurocratic mind-set that causes the big auto finance companies to mis-price their contracts to your benefit and to your disadvantage on others. Go fo the one that works in your favor.

If you are told that the car does not have a purchase price, Walk! It does.
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#8 Consumer Suggestion

When negotiating a lease remember to look it over completely and do not trust anything they say without proof.

AUTHOR: Robert - (U.S.A.)

All of the discussions have fairly well illuminated the personalities involved and the character of the car dealership. What has been mischaracterised is the essence of what a lease is. There seems to be a general idea that a lease is an evil thing, entered into by those who wish to buy a car over their station in life.
While this is true in more than a few instances, it is not true for most. A lease is not a mystery. One can faily accurately consider a lease as a loan with the option to give the car back to the bank at a predetermined price after a set number of years. To calculate the lease rate the dealer estimates what the value of the vehicle will be at the end of the lease period. He then calculates a payment stream which reflects a rate of interest and an amortization of the difference between the purchase pricce and the value at the end of the lease. If the difference is $4,800 and the term is 24 months the lease will cost $200 per month for depreciation and whatever the interest is at the rate offered by the financial institution. There are generally some extra charges, ie. lease origination fee of $450, clean up fee, mileage rate for over mileage, etc.

When the lease period is up the customer generally has the right to purchase the vehicle at the predetermined price. Therein lies the secret of leasing. If the dealer under-estimates the value of the vehicle at the end of the lease it will be offered to you at a very attractive price. If the dealer over-estimates the value of the vehicle the price will be unattractive and you walk away. If you buy the vehicle at the end of the lease and pay it off you will find that the overall cost is not a whole lot more than if you purchased the car in the beginning. If the car turns out to be a lemon that no one would touch with aten foot pole you have unloaded it at a price which you could never have gotten had you wanted out of the purchase at the same point in time.

Now, how do you profit from this? First, only deal with dealers who are financed by the automotive company. GMAC and Ford Financial are good and I don't think tha Chrysler has a finance company as they sold it in the early eighties to keep afloat. If you are a businessman and want to drive a luxury car, a lease is ideal. Look for one at the end of the model year. The beginning price is negotiated with the dealer, and that is what he will get paid by GMAC. The value at the end of the lease is determined by GMAC as is the interest rate. If you get a two year lease the end value is quite good so the depreciation is not bad. If you get the same car and use a three year lease, the end value is not much less. Therefore, the amount of depreciation is spread over three years and the amount to be covered is not that mush more than the two year lease. At the end of the lease you will generally find that the buy out price is much higher than you would be willing to pay to buy the car. As a matter of fact you can probably go to the other side of the lot and buy the same car at a lower price. the loss gets eaten by GMAC. They rationalize this by making a profit on the front end and it helps to meet their production quota. If this seems to good to be true it must be remembered that sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. Generally if you lease a vehicle which is out of favor and in excess supply you can negotiate a discounted purchase price. This lowers, dollar for dollar, the amount which will be amortized over the term of the lease. The magic comes due to the fact that the finance companies will generally have a fixed end value which is based on a percentage of the sticker price, no matter how much it was discounted to get it to sell. As a matter of fact, since some options can be bought at less than the discounted value at the end of the lease, adding them can actually lower the monthly payment. A set of fance, factory, wheels can add $1,500 to the sticker and $700 to the purchase price due to the mark-up. Since the car will be valued at more than 50% at the end of a three year lease the amout to spread over the lease is less than the return and the price is a little lower. If you don't buy the vehicle at lease end you save and GMAC loses. If the car is out of favor today it will probably be out of favor at the end of the lease. Therefore, you are getting the option to walk away from a car that is not worth what you would owe had you bought it. For once you get to stick it to them. If you are over on your mioles you can probably get them to forgive a reasonable amount if you lease another car. On the other hand, try to lease a popular car and you find the dark side of leasing. If the lease calls for an end value that is too low you can re-coup the loss by buying the car cheap. If the end value is too high, you get a cheap lease and walk away from it. The danger is in getting into a lease with the worst of both worlds. If you are offered a lease with either no buy-out option, a negotiated buy-out option or a buy-out option with onerous charges. There is absolutely no advantage to a negotiated lease price at the end of the lease. If the price is too high they have to lower it to get you to buy. If it is too high you have them by the short hairs and get to take advantage of the price and you monthly charges ahve been artificially low. Usually there is a charge of $500 or so that is added to the estimated end value. If the extra charges are worth the option to get out of the car with no extra risk, then go for it. You are getting value for your money. If the interest rate is too high or if the end value purchase price is listed as being open to negotiation at the end of the lease, run like Bin-Laden at an American Legion convention. DO NOT LEAVE ANYTHING OPEN AFTER THE LEASE IS SIGNED. The only time you have leverage is when you have the money and they have the vehicle.

When negotiating a lease remember to look it over completely and do not trust anything they say without proof. Most car salesmen have a vague understanding, at best, of how a lease works. Not all finance managers understand them either.
To wrap this up, if you want to drive a high depreciation vehicle, don't run the mileage past about 15,000 per year and want a new car regularly, leasing is a good deal. If you like to drive the wheels off the car and keep it until they stop making parts, it isn't. The secret is to keep an open mind and look for the opportunity to take advantage of the beaurocratic mind-set that causes the big auto finance companies to mis-price their contracts to your benefit and to your disadvantage on others. Go fo the one that works in your favor.

If you are told that the car does not have a purchase price, Walk! It does.
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#9 Consumer Suggestion

When negotiating a lease remember to look it over completely and do not trust anything they say without proof.

AUTHOR: Robert - (U.S.A.)

All of the discussions have fairly well illuminated the personalities involved and the character of the car dealership. What has been mischaracterised is the essence of what a lease is. There seems to be a general idea that a lease is an evil thing, entered into by those who wish to buy a car over their station in life.
While this is true in more than a few instances, it is not true for most. A lease is not a mystery. One can faily accurately consider a lease as a loan with the option to give the car back to the bank at a predetermined price after a set number of years. To calculate the lease rate the dealer estimates what the value of the vehicle will be at the end of the lease period. He then calculates a payment stream which reflects a rate of interest and an amortization of the difference between the purchase pricce and the value at the end of the lease. If the difference is $4,800 and the term is 24 months the lease will cost $200 per month for depreciation and whatever the interest is at the rate offered by the financial institution. There are generally some extra charges, ie. lease origination fee of $450, clean up fee, mileage rate for over mileage, etc.

When the lease period is up the customer generally has the right to purchase the vehicle at the predetermined price. Therein lies the secret of leasing. If the dealer under-estimates the value of the vehicle at the end of the lease it will be offered to you at a very attractive price. If the dealer over-estimates the value of the vehicle the price will be unattractive and you walk away. If you buy the vehicle at the end of the lease and pay it off you will find that the overall cost is not a whole lot more than if you purchased the car in the beginning. If the car turns out to be a lemon that no one would touch with aten foot pole you have unloaded it at a price which you could never have gotten had you wanted out of the purchase at the same point in time.

Now, how do you profit from this? First, only deal with dealers who are financed by the automotive company. GMAC and Ford Financial are good and I don't think tha Chrysler has a finance company as they sold it in the early eighties to keep afloat. If you are a businessman and want to drive a luxury car, a lease is ideal. Look for one at the end of the model year. The beginning price is negotiated with the dealer, and that is what he will get paid by GMAC. The value at the end of the lease is determined by GMAC as is the interest rate. If you get a two year lease the end value is quite good so the depreciation is not bad. If you get the same car and use a three year lease, the end value is not much less. Therefore, the amount of depreciation is spread over three years and the amount to be covered is not that mush more than the two year lease. At the end of the lease you will generally find that the buy out price is much higher than you would be willing to pay to buy the car. As a matter of fact you can probably go to the other side of the lot and buy the same car at a lower price. the loss gets eaten by GMAC. They rationalize this by making a profit on the front end and it helps to meet their production quota. If this seems to good to be true it must be remembered that sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. Generally if you lease a vehicle which is out of favor and in excess supply you can negotiate a discounted purchase price. This lowers, dollar for dollar, the amount which will be amortized over the term of the lease. The magic comes due to the fact that the finance companies will generally have a fixed end value which is based on a percentage of the sticker price, no matter how much it was discounted to get it to sell. As a matter of fact, since some options can be bought at less than the discounted value at the end of the lease, adding them can actually lower the monthly payment. A set of fance, factory, wheels can add $1,500 to the sticker and $700 to the purchase price due to the mark-up. Since the car will be valued at more than 50% at the end of a three year lease the amout to spread over the lease is less than the return and the price is a little lower. If you don't buy the vehicle at lease end you save and GMAC loses. If the car is out of favor today it will probably be out of favor at the end of the lease. Therefore, you are getting the option to walk away from a car that is not worth what you would owe had you bought it. For once you get to stick it to them. If you are over on your mioles you can probably get them to forgive a reasonable amount if you lease another car. On the other hand, try to lease a popular car and you find the dark side of leasing. If the lease calls for an end value that is too low you can re-coup the loss by buying the car cheap. If the end value is too high, you get a cheap lease and walk away from it. The danger is in getting into a lease with the worst of both worlds. If you are offered a lease with either no buy-out option, a negotiated buy-out option or a buy-out option with onerous charges. There is absolutely no advantage to a negotiated lease price at the end of the lease. If the price is too high they have to lower it to get you to buy. If it is too high you have them by the short hairs and get to take advantage of the price and you monthly charges ahve been artificially low. Usually there is a charge of $500 or so that is added to the estimated end value. If the extra charges are worth the option to get out of the car with no extra risk, then go for it. You are getting value for your money. If the interest rate is too high or if the end value purchase price is listed as being open to negotiation at the end of the lease, run like Bin-Laden at an American Legion convention. DO NOT LEAVE ANYTHING OPEN AFTER THE LEASE IS SIGNED. The only time you have leverage is when you have the money and they have the vehicle.

When negotiating a lease remember to look it over completely and do not trust anything they say without proof. Most car salesmen have a vague understanding, at best, of how a lease works. Not all finance managers understand them either.
To wrap this up, if you want to drive a high depreciation vehicle, don't run the mileage past about 15,000 per year and want a new car regularly, leasing is a good deal. If you like to drive the wheels off the car and keep it until they stop making parts, it isn't. The secret is to keep an open mind and look for the opportunity to take advantage of the beaurocratic mind-set that causes the big auto finance companies to mis-price their contracts to your benefit and to your disadvantage on others. Go fo the one that works in your favor.

If you are told that the car does not have a purchase price, Walk! It does.
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#10 Consumer Suggestion

When negotiating a lease remember to look it over completely and do not trust anything they say without proof.

AUTHOR: Robert - (U.S.A.)

All of the discussions have fairly well illuminated the personalities involved and the character of the car dealership. What has been mischaracterised is the essence of what a lease is. There seems to be a general idea that a lease is an evil thing, entered into by those who wish to buy a car over their station in life.
While this is true in more than a few instances, it is not true for most. A lease is not a mystery. One can faily accurately consider a lease as a loan with the option to give the car back to the bank at a predetermined price after a set number of years. To calculate the lease rate the dealer estimates what the value of the vehicle will be at the end of the lease period. He then calculates a payment stream which reflects a rate of interest and an amortization of the difference between the purchase pricce and the value at the end of the lease. If the difference is $4,800 and the term is 24 months the lease will cost $200 per month for depreciation and whatever the interest is at the rate offered by the financial institution. There are generally some extra charges, ie. lease origination fee of $450, clean up fee, mileage rate for over mileage, etc.

When the lease period is up the customer generally has the right to purchase the vehicle at the predetermined price. Therein lies the secret of leasing. If the dealer under-estimates the value of the vehicle at the end of the lease it will be offered to you at a very attractive price. If the dealer over-estimates the value of the vehicle the price will be unattractive and you walk away. If you buy the vehicle at the end of the lease and pay it off you will find that the overall cost is not a whole lot more than if you purchased the car in the beginning. If the car turns out to be a lemon that no one would touch with aten foot pole you have unloaded it at a price which you could never have gotten had you wanted out of the purchase at the same point in time.

Now, how do you profit from this? First, only deal with dealers who are financed by the automotive company. GMAC and Ford Financial are good and I don't think tha Chrysler has a finance company as they sold it in the early eighties to keep afloat. If you are a businessman and want to drive a luxury car, a lease is ideal. Look for one at the end of the model year. The beginning price is negotiated with the dealer, and that is what he will get paid by GMAC. The value at the end of the lease is determined by GMAC as is the interest rate. If you get a two year lease the end value is quite good so the depreciation is not bad. If you get the same car and use a three year lease, the end value is not much less. Therefore, the amount of depreciation is spread over three years and the amount to be covered is not that mush more than the two year lease. At the end of the lease you will generally find that the buy out price is much higher than you would be willing to pay to buy the car. As a matter of fact you can probably go to the other side of the lot and buy the same car at a lower price. the loss gets eaten by GMAC. They rationalize this by making a profit on the front end and it helps to meet their production quota. If this seems to good to be true it must be remembered that sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. Generally if you lease a vehicle which is out of favor and in excess supply you can negotiate a discounted purchase price. This lowers, dollar for dollar, the amount which will be amortized over the term of the lease. The magic comes due to the fact that the finance companies will generally have a fixed end value which is based on a percentage of the sticker price, no matter how much it was discounted to get it to sell. As a matter of fact, since some options can be bought at less than the discounted value at the end of the lease, adding them can actually lower the monthly payment. A set of fance, factory, wheels can add $1,500 to the sticker and $700 to the purchase price due to the mark-up. Since the car will be valued at more than 50% at the end of a three year lease the amout to spread over the lease is less than the return and the price is a little lower. If you don't buy the vehicle at lease end you save and GMAC loses. If the car is out of favor today it will probably be out of favor at the end of the lease. Therefore, you are getting the option to walk away from a car that is not worth what you would owe had you bought it. For once you get to stick it to them. If you are over on your mioles you can probably get them to forgive a reasonable amount if you lease another car. On the other hand, try to lease a popular car and you find the dark side of leasing. If the lease calls for an end value that is too low you can re-coup the loss by buying the car cheap. If the end value is too high, you get a cheap lease and walk away from it. The danger is in getting into a lease with the worst of both worlds. If you are offered a lease with either no buy-out option, a negotiated buy-out option or a buy-out option with onerous charges. There is absolutely no advantage to a negotiated lease price at the end of the lease. If the price is too high they have to lower it to get you to buy. If it is too high you have them by the short hairs and get to take advantage of the price and you monthly charges ahve been artificially low. Usually there is a charge of $500 or so that is added to the estimated end value. If the extra charges are worth the option to get out of the car with no extra risk, then go for it. You are getting value for your money. If the interest rate is too high or if the end value purchase price is listed as being open to negotiation at the end of the lease, run like Bin-Laden at an American Legion convention. DO NOT LEAVE ANYTHING OPEN AFTER THE LEASE IS SIGNED. The only time you have leverage is when you have the money and they have the vehicle.

When negotiating a lease remember to look it over completely and do not trust anything they say without proof. Most car salesmen have a vague understanding, at best, of how a lease works. Not all finance managers understand them either.
To wrap this up, if you want to drive a high depreciation vehicle, don't run the mileage past about 15,000 per year and want a new car regularly, leasing is a good deal. If you like to drive the wheels off the car and keep it until they stop making parts, it isn't. The secret is to keep an open mind and look for the opportunity to take advantage of the beaurocratic mind-set that causes the big auto finance companies to mis-price their contracts to your benefit and to your disadvantage on others. Go fo the one that works in your favor.

If you are told that the car does not have a purchase price, Walk! It does.
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#11 Consumer Comment

With car dealers like this one, who needs Bin Laden? This place does a better job being a threat to service members.

AUTHOR: J - (U.S.A.)

To the thugs of Bell Road Toyota and other dealerships like you. The Al-Qauda are looking for individuals like you, because you terrorize other Americans better than they ever can. You belong in camp Delta in Cuba with the other terrorists. SHAME YOU for defrauding veterans.
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#12 Consumer Suggestion

I'm not surprised at this dealer's tactics. It's not new for car dealers to prey on the military.

AUTHOR: Joe - (U.S.A.)

Corrupt car dealers are a greater threat to our military than terrorist groups like Al-Quada because they are protected by the law and hide behind their expensive lawyers. Also they can work within our borders.

Car dealers love to rip off service members because they are easy to find and start involuntary allotments from their accounts. I have dealt with many dishonest dealerships over the years while shopping different prices. Most hope the consumers are uninformed so they can rape their finances.

Usually a consumer can walk out of a car dealership. Sometimes a dealer will detain a consumer in the finance office while reviewing documents using the car salemen to block the exit with their bodies for several hours. In that situation there is no peaceful means to escape except to cooperate and buy the car.

I had this experience before and learned the law is on the side of big business. When I shop for a new car I will be prepared for this cob tactic. If it happens to me again I will have the means to convince the car dealer I'm not interested after saying no to unfavorable terms.

If not allowed to leave peacefuly I will use any means necessary to convince him/her I'm not interested. Buying a car from car dealers is Darwinism. The most vicious survive.
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#13 Consumer Comment

Truth!!! It's called FREE ENTERPRISE, you dope!

AUTHOR: Angelo - (U.S.A.)

Great Thorn; You certainly know how to twist the truth and frighten unknowing people into believing that the big bad car dealers have no right to make a profit, like the banks do on car loans. That lady who re-negotiated the contract down to 9% could have paid her high interest loan off (usually for free or a small fee which goes to the bank!) and taken advantage of the 9% she negotiated. Better yet, she could have strolled down to her local bank branch and secured the loan herself. Can a dealer make money on the interest rate? Yes, but most banks cap the amount to 3 or 4% above what the bank charges. By the way, the mortgage interest on your home usually includes "points" for your mortgage broker. That would be called paying for the service of locating, documenting and processing your mortgage. A car dealer is doing the same thing for a customer and it is within his right to get a fee for his service of locating, securing, processing and documenting your loan. A customer is always free to secure his or her own financing any place else. Simply secure the loan, pick up a check and pay the dealer! As for those companies you mention, I've checked their web-sites and find nothing illegal or immoral about trying to make a profit on goods and services. Alot of dealers out there are tripping over themselves to sell you a car at a fair price and provide great service as well, probably because these training companies have helped these dealers "see the light", in terms of what people really want. You take these isolated incidents, usually only seeing one side of the story and when that happens, the truth gets lost somewhere along the way. You suggest that perhaps I'm a car dealer....no, unlike you, I am just a proponent of free enterprise. The world around you, in case you haven't noticed is FILLED with people wanting to "earn your business today". Just turn on your TV, your computer or your radio and every business of every type is screaming at you to come down and spend your money today on something they have to offer, including your own WEB-SITE! It's called FREE ENTERPRISE, you dope! And the best thing about it, you have a CHOICE!!!! Despite tactics and pitches the bottom line is you can always say NO.
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#14 Consumer Suggestion

Angelo Read this

AUTHOR: The Great Thorn - (U.S.A.)

Angelo you say for the buyers to get everything in writing, Right?

CAVEAT EMPTOR - BUYER BEWARE!, Angelo, your a liar with most of the others! you know d**n well this is what these companies teach! How to trick, how to take the money, make the customer feel comfortable and trusting, ..your there to help them get into the car of thier dreams, ..I want to earn your money, all sound familar Angelo!? hmmmm?

I Talked to a lady that filed a Rip-off Report last week that told me about a car dealer that had her sign a contract at 15%, she made a big deal out of the 15% and the dealer had her sign a new contract that was at 9%. She got it in writing.

Guess what? The dealer sent the 15% contract to the bank. The bank approved it. Now she has to make the bigger car payment because of the DIRTY CAR DEALERS usual trick, a nationwide practice by most Auto delaers. So much for getting everything in writing, huh!

It sounds like you might be a car dealer's employee. Why don't you visit all of the following web sites and you tell ME what they all do for car dealers.

Here is the list, Go to them ALL, OK? ..then get back to us.

www.probac.com
www.nationalautotraining.com
www.appliedconcepts.net
www.grantcardone.com
www.davidlewis.com
www.jeffsacksandassociates.com
www.stukertraining.com
www.paulcummings.com
www.tewart.com
www.joeverde.com

www.biggross.com

www.nationalautotraining.com
www.fandiprofit.com
www.carsalestraining.co.uk/preview.html
www.autoscreeningtraining.com
www.autosalestraining.com

You and I know that newspapers, talk radio and your local TV stations will never help inform the car buyers of America about the car dealer's scams. You ask why?

Because they get most of their advertising money from the dirty car dealers. They are not going to bite the big money hands that feed them.

So it is our job to help victims post their troubles for all to read, this way the dirty car dealers of America will know that they are being EXPOSED!
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#15 Consumer Comment

Get It In WRITING!!!

AUTHOR: Angelo - (U.S.A.)

After reading this story and all of it's attached comments, one thing comes blazingly to mind:

Why didn't this guy get everything in writing?

Purchasing a vehicle nowadays is a very expensive and important decision that requires, above all, someone with all of his or her mental faculties intact, as well as some degree of knowledge. Knowledge that can easily be obtained from many sources nowadays, including the web, the library or the bookstore.

While it is very sad that this particular event triggered something inside this poor man that made him kill himself, to suggest that it's the dealer's fault is quite a leap.

In fact, after perusing through the so-called "rip-offs" found on this web-site, I'd have to say that a large percentage of them are the result of people NOT using their heads.

Why, why would a person sign a blank contract?

Why would a person take a $27,000 vehicle home with him without seeing everything he agreed to in writing (including being able to return the vehicle after 3 days!!!).

Why wouldn't someone just get up and walk out if the deal was not what they expected or unacceptable?

I think people today just want to make mistakes and then blame someone else for their own stupidity.

Are there unscrupulous automobile dealers out there? Of course there are.

There is a very old saying with regard to business. It's timeless and true. People who read this web-site should commit it to memory:

CAVEAT EMPTOR

Translation: BUYER BEWARE!

You will avoid wasting your time on silly web-sites like this that accomplish nothing more than giving someone an outlet for his or her frustration. You WILL accomplish a very important goal:

YOU WILL STOP GETTING RIPPED OFF!!!

If it's too good to be true, it probably is, and get everything in writing and, above all--- Stop whining and LEARN from your mistakes people!!!

The editors probably won't publish this and if they don't, they are doing the public a great dis-service.
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#16 Consumer Suggestion

Michael, what started the trouble is the fact that Bell Road Toyota would not honor their word!

AUTHOR: The Great Thorn - Rip-off Report Consumer Advocate - - (U.S.A.)

Michael what started the trouble is the fact that Bell Road Toyota would not honor their word. RipOffReport.com has a fellow advocate that talked to Brian's family members.

They told him that Brian DID NOT want to be taken out of the truck deal. He wanted to unwind the lease deal as they said they would the VERY NEXT DAY and contract him in a purchase deal in the SAME TRUCK!

Recontracting a car buyer the VERY NEXT DAY is an easy task for any car dealer. In most cases it takes longer then 24 hours to get a deal funded, Unless the buyer has a very high Fair Isaac Score(Great Credit) and the dealer puts the paper work on a fast track to the bank to lock the buyer in a deal real fast.

This Combat Veteran wanted to keep the truck. He just wanted to change from a lease to a purchase. But NO this car dealer wanted to hold his feet to the fire. It would seem to one that this Lease deal they contracted him in was a VERY PROFITABLE deal.

It is a Shame that car buyers in Arizona have a state government that has no back bone to take a second look at their auto laws.

I am willing to bet that in Arizona their "Arizona Auto Dealers Association" had their dirty pens working hard to get some good laws past for the dirty car dealers.

Hey Michael I would like to invite you to some Free web sites.

Check out the following web sites and then ask your self two questions.

What do they all do for car dealers. What kind of product or service to they all sell to car dealers.

Think real hard!!!

Here is the list, Go to them ALL, OK?

www.biggross.com

www.probac.com
www.nationalautotraining.com
www.appliedconcepts.net
www.grantcardone.com
www.davidlewis.com
www.jeffsacksandassociates.com
www.stukertraining.com
www.paulcummings.com
www.nationalautotraining.com
www.tewart.com
www.joeverde.com

To all who are even thinking of buying a car. Make sure that you come to this web site and read the "Auto dealer" Rip Off Reports before going to any car dealer. The buyer's gain is the dealer's pain!

I would also not be too fast to believe the car dealer advertisements in any newspaper. Most all car dealer ads are full of loop holes to help them deceive you.

Remember: Your pain is their gain!

Soon I will be posting car dealer advertisment disclaimers from newspapers across the country.
I will mention the dealer's name and what state they are in.

My job is to expose deception and be the best advocate I can for www.ripoffreport.com. It is my calling.
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#17 Consumer Suggestion

Esprit de Corps ... Esprit de America

AUTHOR: Michael - (U.S.A.)

Apparently "UNITED WE STAND" means nothing to some of the half-wits out there. Even the Spirit of America in all this time, still has not figured out how to overcome evil. It's entirely too hard for the sloppy lazy America we have today.

Self Control.. almost as difficult to find in this world, as TRUST.

CWO Brian Callan mastered self control. He mastered himself, so that he could master his environment, which often was enemy hotzones. He paid his dues, and earned his ego. Umpteen millions of veterans have done this very thing. We're not Gods, and we do wear and break with time. Inevitably, all of our bodies will break down... some in worse ways than Callan's ability to maintain the mental self-mastery over his emotions.

What do they want most of all in their hearts? Great pay would be nice...
Free beer ...

"Man can't live on beer alone"

APPRECIATION is what we're after. I read the rebuttals and watched them morph from a terribly unfortunate situation ... right back to economic consumer chit chat. (Rightfully so, this is Ed's board to rally the consumers, and expose the scumbags - Ed is hardcore).

Bell Road Toyota, in my HUMBLE former combat Marine opinion, is they had no idea of CWO II Brian Callan's deteriorating mental strength that he once mastered. If Callan was in PERFECT mental health, and was duped by a beancounter salesperson, there STILL would've been a scene, only there would've been no deaths .... just a couple snot-nosed, pompous sales sissies with destroyed ego's.

Recommendation: ARM YOURSELF WITH INFORMATION. If every American did this simple step ... Brother Ed wouldn't have a site anymore. Sales, and Marketing have a what ... multi billion dollar industry.... of finding a consumers weak point. Submission is their game. I DEFINITELY do not accuse the sales clerks at Bell Road Toyota of being SKILLED sales personnel ... I think they were doing what they were TRAINED to do...stall stall stall, and move up the chain of command until there's a suitable resolution.

Ironically, I believe CWO II Brian Callan also did what he was trained to do. GIVE UP HIS LIFE TO PRESERVE THE LIVES OF OTHER AMERICANS. Even in the end, he served his country. He saved an entire staff of scumbag, money motivated, customer-care failures from dying that day. Callan may of been more sane than he was ever given credit for in the end.

Semper Fi, Chief ... you charged so hard, you stormed the gates of Heaven! Fricken motivating.
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#18 Consumer Comment

Car Buyers beware in Arizona

AUTHOR: Marc - (U.S.A.)

In 1996 I was shopping for a 4wd pickup and Toyota was my first choice. A certain dealership in Phoenix gave me the complete run around and tried relentlessly to get me to sign a lease on a base Tacoma for $450 a month. Mind you that to buy one was in reality around $300 or less based on my trade. I have since learned, by an exemployee of the Nissan dealership down the street (owned by the same conglomerate) that they are (as I had already thought) unjustly compensated to get you to take the worse deal. After getting the run around from most of the Toyota dealers in the "Valley of the Sun", I ultimately got a loaded Nissan (from a dealer in Tempe AZ) for less money and have never regretted it. (I still own it and drive it.)



Personally as I am not self employed, I hate leases. I have always come out way ahead on trade in value on the Japanese nameplates in that after the vehicle is paid off, it is worth at least $7,000. Considering these were bought for well under $20,000. and I drive them every day, that is not too bad. In my opinion leases are more for people that want more car than they can really afford. (And for that matter probably need)As to the self employed person using it as a write off, most leases have steep over milage penalities and you need to have the income to get the write off as the IRS doesn't give you money. Also most leases require you to do maintence, so its not like you are getting a free ride on the lease. (I believe when you return a leased car and the maintence is felt to be "deficient" that you are also charged for this.)



Anyways my advice to everyone in Arizona is to do your homework. Those Sunday ads that have one car at a certain spectacular price, "Subject to prior sale" are already "sold" before the ad prints, or are the stripped model ("smaller engine etc.") that has been beat up, and even at that, it is already sold when you ask a salesman about it. Find out what cars are really worth through the newspaper (pay close attention to private ad prices in comparison to Dealer prices), Blue Book etc. The important thing to pay attention to is resale on a "almost new" identical car so you will know how bad you are going to take it in the shorts when you leave the lot with a new one. If you don't like where the negotiations are going, walk away. This is America, and there is always a good deal to be had on a car. Too many people don't realize the power they have by simply walking away. Read everything before you sign it! If you don't understand it, then don't sign it. It's really that simple.



Oh, those "No Haggle" prices on the Internet (at least in Arizona) are wonderful...for the Dealership. I have ALWAYS gotten a better price in person. Why haggle if you are making around full markup. Also in Arizona there seems to be many different "Invoices" and what the Dealer actually gets paid is never really clearly disclosed to the purchaser. Do the math on the interest rate you think you be getting in advance and arrive at a realistic monthly payment based on this. (There are several free amorization schedules on the Internet where you can do this for free.) By doing so, you will automatically know how honest your salesman is. If there "starting point" is that far away from realistic expectations, don't waste your time.



Finally, don't lose faith. If you really want a new car, be patient and examine the competition. I wanted a Maxima for my Wife a year or so back. After looking and haggling, I went and drove a Honda Accord. I liked it so much, we bought one. (I think it was more fun and had more road feel than the Maxima.) This is not a paid endorsement, but the salesman at Honda Cars of Mesa was great! Ther was no pressure from him. I drove it and thought about it for a day or so and then went back to go through numbers. I never like the good guy/bad guy game the dealers play with their Salesman and Finance guys over things like Sales Price, Floor mats etc., but this is their job to be the "Bad Guy" in the Finance Dept. I suppose. Anyways, I liked the Salesman much better than their Finance Dept., employee but I got the payment within 20 some odd dollars of where I'd thought it should be. Two other thoughts...1.)do not forget to factor sales tax into your numbers as this does have a huge effect on the bottom line. 2.) If you have a just O.K. tradein, in Arizona there is a glut of used cars within the Dealerships, so you may do better to sell it yourself. My wife's tradein wasn't worth much so I sold it to a family member instead of having to mess with this.



Althought the oil changes (only maintence it has needed) are a little more expensive there (Honda Cars of Mesa), they are always pleasant and decently quick enought. (If an employee reads this, you don't always get a car wash and if you do, its not great, but O.K.) As it is Honda, I doubt they make the mistakes I've seen on the other car repair horror stories at this webpage.



It appears to me that most Arizona New Car Dealerships are owned by big corporations. I believe there are only like 7 big players (by what was reported in the Arizona Republic newspaper) and a handfull of truly independents and so it really is a "controlled" marketplace, even if you are lead to believe otherwise. But thats not to say that you can't get a good deal, you just have to be informed and patient.



Good Luck!
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#19 Consumer Comment

got personal

AUTHOR: Jim - (U.S.A.)

I see from your response that you are an irrational and unbalanced person who can do nothing but scream at an opinon you do not agree with. Are you regerstered as a Democrat by chance as that would explain your inability to deal with an opinon other than your own.



As far as the military question goes I was in the 101st and the 9th I.D. That is all I will say on the subject.



Yes I am a Capitolist, yes I am in the car business, yes I believe in profit, yes I believe I have a right to put food on my familys table, yes I have served my country in order to perserve your rights as well as mine and others.



Your final comment wes at best uncalled for and I do expect an apology but I do not believe I shall recieve it.



I do not wish to drag this unfortunate incident out futher so this is my final words on this subject.
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#20 Consumer Comment

sad sad sad

AUTHOR: Luke - (U.S.A.)

This is indeed a sad story. I would just like to add that one option that seems to work for me is anytime a salesman tells me something verbally, I ask them to put it in writing and sign the paper.

Talk is cheap and if they refuse to do this, I take my business elsewhere.
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#21 0

EDitor's Staff Response ...We are not out here to stop people from making money.

AUTHOR: - ()

Hey Jim,



What we, as consumer advocates, are trying to do is STOP DECEPTION, especially in car sales. You say a very unstable person could not handle doing business so he ends it, blaming his instability.



Let's say a person who has served this great country has been through so much more than the public could ever imagine, he hit a chuck hole in his life and just might have been pushed over his unknown limit. Knowing that he was going to a car dealer where a different kind of battle happens, he went to try to ask the dealer to carry out their word and when the salesman would

not be admirable, then he began battle the only way he knew how, the way he was trained and to .



Hey Jim, are you familiar with the car dealership in Florida that was told by the court to video record EVERY F&I transaction for 2 years? They were ordered by the court to video record all F&I transactions because of all of the car buyers' complaints. In other words the dealer was a big Rip-off. Just think about all of their car buyers that were victims that had to be video recorded while they talked about their finances to a SHARK IN THE BOX!



The auto industry has so many well-paid lobbyist, who are pounding the nation's pavement trying to pass laws that will let car dealers do just about what ever they want to each and every car buyer, including YOU JIM! This is the second most important purchase you will make and it is set up so that YOU will be screwed, unless you KNOW what you are doing.



Jim, ask yourself this question and then search for the answer (in your head). Why is it that a car dealer can remove the car buyer from a contract pretty much at any time for what ever reason, maybe because they did not make enough profit, maybe the sales manager screwed up and the GM wants to "re-contract" the buyer to undo the SM's screw up to regain the lost profit.

Maybe the GM wants that car back so he can sell it to a close friend, Maybe the SM did not notice that that car was already sold to someone else. At any rate, sales lies in order to change the deal, and Toyota does this routinely, often pulling the contract to rewrite it for more profit. Frequently, they claim their credit is no good, even when they have a nearly perfect Fair Isaac Score.



Now the other side. Let's say that the buyer takes a big shinny new 4X4 truck home and it will not fit in his/her garage and the city will not let him/her park on the street. What can the buyer do? NOTHING! In short, they are SCREWED!!!! Car dealers are expert in closing all LOOP HOLES so the car buyer can't UNWIND a car deal.



Let's have car buying/leasing contracts printed up so the buyer and the dealer can both agree in writing on what terms that the buyer can COMPLETELY UNWIND a car deal printed RIGHT in the contract. Then if a car buyer does not like the UNWIND CLAUSE he/she can say to the shark in the "BOX" HEY, NO WAY! I am out of here! This will take action from each state legislature.

Just remember, you are up against the car sales lobby.



It has been reported to the Rip Off Report that this truck buyer wanted to keep the truck, and just wanted this crappie car dealer to restructure the deal from a lease to a purchase. Now, what would have been so F---ING hard about that JIM? The dealer agreed to this because it served their purpose to get the vehicle back in and the dealer would still have another "LICK" on

their sales board, or an opportunity to make more money off this guy. They never intended to keep their promise.



Jim, I will tell you why I feel this dealer more than likely did not want to redo this deal. Because the Desk manager made a very profitable car deal and did not want to lower the net GROSS PROFIT!!! Apparently, the sale would have done just that.



Had this CRAPPIE CAR dealer restructure this deal, we would still probably this great American veteran alive today. Yes, we all know that this man had some trouble with his medical treatment that he was trying to deal with. Mental illness is curable. If you have a cold we don't write you off, you

take time off work, eat chicken soup and rest. If you go out in the rain with no clothes, you are going to get worse and maybe die of pneumonia.



Having a dealer that would not honor their word just PUSHED this man over a limit which no average consumer could understand, unless they walked in his boots through the same long path on which he marched. However, if it did happen to a person who has not been exposed to these stressors, I have seen them snap and blow up publicly. What about those situations?



Jim are you a COMBAT veteran? Have you any idea what COMBAT veterans truly go through? Could you take a gun and shoot someone in the face, who might have the goal of taking your life and stop them from reaching their objective?



Have you ever seen a comrade or a trusting friend BLOWN AWAY right before you very own eyes and have their blood and guts scattered on you? UNTIL then... SHUT the F--K UP.



The Great Thorn

Consumer Advocate Volunteer- Rip-off Report

The Auto Buyers Advocate

badbusinessbureau.com

Bayville, New York
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#22 Consumer Suggestion

Sick

AUTHOR: Jim - (U.S.A.)

Does it ever stop? The finger pointing, the blame?



A very unstable person (for what ever reason)could not handle doing business. So what does he do? Takes the easy way out and now it is the fault of the business and all like them (according to the great thorn).



Before you say anything....I was in Viet Nam and other places as well. I am a productive member of society and my choices right or wrong are my own so I accept responsbilty for my actions. You do not see me or many others like me (John McCain) crying that it is not our fault for what happens to us.



So I suggest that you and others like you that seek to extract vengnce turn your efforts towards the real enemy.......Terorist!



I must admit that I do read your report for amusement and that is about all. You and your contributors do at times make valid points but it is of no matter when one looks at the larger picture of what is gong on.



Once again let this tragic matter drop and pickup on something that really matters other than some poor individual who decided to end his life in a public manner.
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#23 Consumer Comment

Arizona Residents, You Are Called to Active Duty!

AUTHOR: Michael - ()

Arizona residents can go to www.azleg.state.az.us to find the representatives in their district and e-mail a letter similar to the one I sent my three representatives.



Please read the story of the recent suicide of the highly decorated Arizona veteran, Brian Callan, as described in last weeks New Times. This American tragedy has brought to the forefront the need for a consumer protection law regarding automobile purchases in the state of Arizona. The Arizona auto dealers have lost their privilege to hide behind a lack of consumer protection with this recent outrage.



I am hoping Brian's' family will become politically active to help with this long overdue legislation. Even though the Arizona auto dealers pump millions into the Arizona state house annually, they now have lost any moral ground to justify a lack of consumer protection.



As momentum builds for this legislation I hope you will be a leader regarding consumer protection for Arizona. Together we can prevent a tragedy like this from ever occurring again.



Sincerely,



CPT Mike, USAR

Voting Resident,

Scottsdale, AZ



The auto dealers drew the line in the sand and Brian crossed it for all of us. Don't let him down. Lets fight his final battle and demand accountability from Arizona auto dealers and our state legislators.
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#24 Consumer Comment

Arizona Residents, You Are Called to Active Duty!

AUTHOR: Michael - ()

Arizona residents can go to www.azleg.state.az.us to find the representatives in their district and e-mail a letter similar to the one I sent my three representatives.



Please read the story of the recent suicide of the highly decorated Arizona veteran, Brian Callan, as described in last weeks New Times. This American tragedy has brought to the forefront the need for a consumer protection law regarding automobile purchases in the state of Arizona. The Arizona auto dealers have lost their privilege to hide behind a lack of consumer protection with this recent outrage.



I am hoping Brian's' family will become politically active to help with this long overdue legislation. Even though the Arizona auto dealers pump millions into the Arizona state house annually, they now have lost any moral ground to justify a lack of consumer protection.



As momentum builds for this legislation I hope you will be a leader regarding consumer protection for Arizona. Together we can prevent a tragedy like this from ever occurring again.



Sincerely,



CPT Mike, USAR

Voting Resident,

Scottsdale, AZ



The auto dealers drew the line in the sand and Brian crossed it for all of us. Don't let him down. Lets fight his final battle and demand accountability from Arizona auto dealers and our state legislators.
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#25 Consumer Comment

Fight the good fight

AUTHOR: Michael - ()

Ron is absolutly right. You will never be able to battle the car dearlers in the print, radio or television media. They, local media receive a large portion of their advertising revenue from the auto industry. This creates a conflict between the medias' responsibility to report bad business practices and their financial interests.



It is amazing how people flock to car dealers when the general consensus is you will be taken advantage of. However, well educated people are conned every day across America. Therefore, I will hold my criticism of the uniformed consumer. The idea that the auto industry is to well financed to make a change in state law perpetuates a victim mentality.



If this were truly the case we might as well all give up. Look to people who have experienced similar personal tragedies and turned the event into a social triumph. We have several role models in current history (John Walsh, Shannons' Law, Megans' Law, etc.). The family of Brian Callahan hold all the cards and wield all the power. However, the fight is not a Federal fight, it is a state fight.



Letters to Sen. McCain will be of little to no help. The letters need to be sent to the Arizona State legislators to effect change in Arizona state law. These letters need to be sent by Arizona residents. Brians' Arizona family needs to take charge. They still have momentum and need to act now. No Arizona state legislator would vote against a buyers remorse law. To do so would be to say it's ok to take advantage of mentally disabled people and push them to the brink of pesonal injury. They would also be saying its ok to settle disputes with firearms.



The general public needs protection to prevent a repeat of this tragedy. The Arizona auto dealers have hidden behind a lack of consumer protections for to long. They lost this privilege the day they agitated and then ran from an obviously mentally disturbed individual. They have no moral position nor do their supporters in the state legislature.



All their money will be for not so let them spend to their hearts content. Brians family is in a no lose position. They would honor his memory for as long as cars are sold in Arizona. Every time a consumer brings a car back and says, "no thanks I've changed my mind", the liberty bell will ring. As Arizona consumers, lets be brave for Brian to repay him for all the times he was brave for us. Lets have the courage to fight his final battle and make his life and death count for somthing. Brians' Law could be his living legacy. Arizona residents should e-mail their state legislators today.
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#26 Consumer Comment

You Forgot Something

AUTHOR: Ron - ()

Can anyone really expect the media to do anything for consumers when the bulk of their advertising revenue comes from multi-million dollar corporations. In effect they are no different form the political hacks that dominate the legislature. strange how the people who can least afford these products are the ones who are ripped off the most. Can anyone remember seeing an expose on Car dealerships?



There is nothing wrong with the profit motive or capitalism per se. But government should provide a level playing field for business and consumers. Sadly big bucks have corrupted the system and the so called media is in it up to its' neck but is too dishonest to acknowledge it.
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#27 0

Rip-off Report Investigation: ...The Real Story

AUTHOR: - ()

The following is the results of an on-going Rip-off Report Investigation:

There are two aspects of this report upon which we intend on following up; the unethical business practices of Bell Road Toyota and the mistreatment at the Veteran's Administration.

The first issue is a source of major corruption in the state of Arizona. There are more vehicles sold in the greater Phoenix area than in any other region in the United States. When dealerships say they sell more cars than anywhere else in the WORLD, that is no lie.

With that degree of income comes a great deal of power and influence. The reader proposed legislation in the comments above, but it is doubtful that it would ever pass in Arizona because the car sales lobby wields so much power.

I have spoken to cops in various municipalities in the Valley who have been warned about citing dealerships and their employees for traffic infractions, since "they own the town" by virtue of their revenue contributions. The implication is that the mayors and city managers kow-tow to the car sales industry.

As pointed out above, there is no "Buyers' Remorse" statute, however, in this case, Mr. Callan had an oral contract to convert his lease to a clear purchase. This is something very different, and would have been enforceable if Bell Road Toyota had been honorable.

Informed sources tell us that there is an alternative condition, however, which effectively creates a "buyers' remorse" situation: in the case of cold-call sales, if a salesman were to call you, at your home, for instance,

..let's say you have no transportation, and they bring a vehicle to you and the papers were signed in your home, then you DO have 72 hours to renegotiate or dissolve that contract.

Next, the issue of mistreatment at the Veteran's Administration is a separate matter, which we are also continuing to investigate. So far, we have had no comment from them, but this is a serious matter which needs to be addressed at the Federal level. Appropriately, Senator McCain and Mr. JD Hayworth, a member of the House of Representatives from Arizona are being contacted for response. We will keep you posted on the results of these inquiries.

ED Magedson
EDitor@RipoffReport.com
badbusinessbureau.com
www.ripoffreport.com

We are not lawyers.
We are not a collection agency.

We are Consumer Advocates.
...the victims' advocate

WE are Civil and Human Rights Activists

We are a Nationwide Consumer Reporting News Agency
...by consumers, for consumers
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#28 Consumer Comment

No Buyers Remorse Law in Arizona

AUTHOR: Mike - ()

This story is truly is an American tragedy. The attacks on the VA and weapons laws miss the point. If the state of Arizona had a buyers remorse law none of this would have happened. The sales people know this and is why they act with impunity and disregard. Once you've signed on the dotted line the customer service has ended.



The family is taking a frontal attack on the car dealor and manufacturer which they will never win. If the family wants to make a profound difference, try a flanking move. Contact the state representatives and lobby for a buyers' remorse law in the state of Arizona. This will do more to effect the practice of car sales in Arizona than any law suit.



The proposed legislation should be called Brians' Law. This is an incredible opportunity for the family of Brian Callan to make a difference in Arizona for all consumers. Car dealers will prey on the young, elderly and disabled, as long as law permits.
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#29 Consumer Comment

No Buyers Remorse Law in Arizona

AUTHOR: Mike - ()

This story is truly is an American tragedy. The attacks on the VA and weapons laws miss the point. If the state of Arizona had a buyers remorse law none of this would have happened. The sales people know this and is why they act with impunity and disregard. Once you've signed on the dotted line the customer service has ended.



The family is taking a frontal attack on the car dealor and manufacturer which they will never win. If the family wants to make a profound difference, try a flanking move. Contact the state representatives and lobby for a buyers' remorse law in the state of Arizona. This will do more to effect the practice of car sales in Arizona than any law suit.



The proposed legislation should be called Brians' Law. This is an incredible opportunity for the family of Brian Callan to make a difference in Arizona for all consumers. Car dealers will prey on the young, elderly and disabled, as long as law permits.
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#30 Consumer Comment

No Buyers Remorse Law in Arizona

AUTHOR: Mike - ()

This story is truly is an American tragedy. The attacks on the VA and weapons laws miss the point. If the state of Arizona had a buyers remorse law none of this would have happened. The sales people know this and is why they act with impunity and disregard. Once you've signed on the dotted line the customer service has ended.



The family is taking a frontal attack on the car dealor and manufacturer which they will never win. If the family wants to make a profound difference, try a flanking move. Contact the state representatives and lobby for a buyers' remorse law in the state of Arizona. This will do more to effect the practice of car sales in Arizona than any law suit.



The proposed legislation should be called Brians' Law. This is an incredible opportunity for the family of Brian Callan to make a difference in Arizona for all consumers. Car dealers will prey on the young, elderly and disabled, as long as law permits.
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#31 Consumer Comment

Get Real !!!!

AUTHOR: Mark - ()

So you brother goes Nuts & kills himself & you want to blame a Business for Leasing him a vehicle. GET REAL!!! It isn't the dealerships responsibility to conduct a Psychatric Exam on him before leasing a vehicle. Also you trying to play the VET routine makes me sick. Yes it is GOOD he served his county, I also served in the Military & did my part. But I dont beg for favors or want people to feel sorry for me forever & give me everything for FREE like you seem to expect. You need to realize your Brother was SICK & shouldnt have been out of the hospotal. If you want to blame someone, blame the Dr's & Hospitals that maybe didnt help him when he sought treatment. But a Car Dealership didnt kill him. He Killed Himself!!! So quit whining & moaning & get real!!!
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#32 Consumer Comment

Bob we must not forget about the extreme sales pressure car dealers use.

AUTHOR: Jim - ()

The extreme sales pressure that most all car dealers use is enough to send just about any sain soul over the edge.



The Problem I see is that your mainstreem media will never help expose car dealer dirt and deception to help protect the consumers.



This DEARER COULD HAVE SAID to the truck buyer Mr CWO II L. Brian Callan " Hey we know that there can be misunderstandings during the sale of any product or service. At this point and time How can we mend the fence and move on? BUT NO they can't do that, ..it's just not in their vocabulary.
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#33 Consumer Comment

A Most Sad Story

AUTHOR: Bob - ()

Let me start by expressing sincere sympathy for the loss of this dedicated veteran. We always need to appreciate the sacrifices made by those who preserve freedom by defending the country.



Unfortunately, it appears that the medical condition of the deceased was more of a factor than the apparent precipitating event, his dealings regarding the truck.



Someone in that state of agitation riding around with a loaded weapon is a ticking time bomb. It might just have been a rude driver cutting him off that would have set the same process in motion.



The finger should be pointed instead at the health care system that failed to recognize and treat this veteran's service-connected medical problems.



A truly sad story in my opinion.
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