• Report: #38266

Complaint Review: Bill Heard Chevrolet

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  • Submitted: Sat, December 14, 2002
  • Updated: Mon, October 05, 2009

  • Reported By:Mesa AZ
Bill Heard Chevrolet
7224 E. McDowell Rd Scottsdale, Arizona United States of America

Bill Heard Chevrolet ripoff fraud to consumers Scottsdale Arizona *UPDATE! ..It's not illegal until you get caught! MSRP's removed in violation of Federal Law. *EDitor's investigation see photo's

*Consumer Comment: Your Kidding

*Consumer Comment: Bill Heard R.I.P

*Consumer Comment: All 13 Bill Heard Dealeships Went Out Of Business Today 9-25-08!!

*Consumer Comment: buh bye

*Consumer Comment: Bill Heard Chevrolet in Scottsdale is down for the count. It's over! They are HISTORY! NEWS COVERAGE.

*Consumer Comment: Bill Heard Chevrolet in Scottsdale is down for the count. It's over! They are HISTORY! NEWS COVERAGE.

*Consumer Comment: Bill Heard Chevrolet in Scottsdale is down for the count. It's over! They are HISTORY! NEWS COVERAGE.

*Consumer Comment: Bill Heard Chevrolet in Scottsdale is down for the count. It's over! They are HISTORY! NEWS COVERAGE.

*Consumer Comment: Bill Heard Chevrolet in Scottsdale is HISTORY. GONE. SHUT DOWN!

*Consumer Suggestion: Buyer always beware at car dealerships

*Consumer Comment: This is actually a common practice, unfortunately

*Consumer Comment: Maroney Labels not required on trucks

*Consumer Suggestion: My only question is why does Bill Heard chevrolet wind up in court with their customers so much?

*Consumer Suggestion: My only question is why does Bill Heard chevrolet wind up in court with their customers so much?

*Consumer Suggestion: My only question is why does Bill Heard chevrolet wind up in court with their customers so much?

*Consumer Suggestion: My only question is why does Bill Heard chevrolet wind up in court with their customers so much?

*Consumer Comment: Red McMombs Toyota

*Consumer Suggestion: Arizona does not have a Attorney with balls or the knowledge

*Consumer Suggestion: Arizona does not have a Attorney with balls or the knowledge

*Consumer Suggestion: Arizona does not have a Attorney with balls or the knowledge

*Consumer Comment: You dont need an MSRP

*Consumer Comment: You dont need an MSRP

*Consumer Comment: You dont need an MSRP

*Consumer Comment: You dont need an MSRP

*Consumer Suggestion: Got my car

*Consumer Suggestion: Advice for Jody

*Consumer Comment: USE YOUR CONSUMER POWER

*Consumer Comment: Need some advice please!!

*Consumer Suggestion: Mitigating The Risk To Buyers

*Consumer Comment: How many names do you respond with?

*Consumer Comment: Response to Sarai

*Consumer Suggestion: Ex Dealership Finance Manager

*Consumer Comment: Max aren't you intelligent

*Consumer Comment: No problem with dating

*Consumer Comment: "misplaced" keys

*Consumer Comment: Thats exactly my point

*Consumer Comment: You need to PEEP THIS!

*Consumer Comment: To the BH employee in Scottsdale

*Consumer Comment: Irresponsible rebuttles and updates

*Consumer Comment: several comments

*Consumer Suggestion: The BIG problem is GM looking the other way

*Consumer Comment: Bill Heard is a rip-off all the way around!

*Consumer Comment: DRIVE BEFORE YOU NEGOTIATE!!

*Consumer Comment: ANOTHER BILL HEARD VICTIM

*Consumer Comment: No Excuses for unfair practices!!!

*Consumer Comment: Kenneth the problem with the manufactures is that they DO NOT CARE what the car dealers do to the car buyers.

*Consumer Comment: Real issues

*Consumer Suggestion: The Attorney General DOES care

*Consumer Comment: Some dealerships are catching on

*Consumer Comment: hyundai

*Consumer Comment: Common and similar practices in Arizona (Courtesy Chevrolet, Phoenix, AZ) - Here's why

*Consumer Comment: My two cents

*Consumer Suggestion: BOGUS BILLY needs to be shut down!

*Consumer Comment: Consumers Rip Off?

*Consumer Suggestion: a little advice

*Consumer Comment: Leave us alone? You're too worried about PRICE???

*Consumer Comment: Why the passenger side?

*REBUTTAL Individual responds: Cars and Real Esate are two very different things!

*Consumer Suggestion: To Dave from Mesa, AZ

*Consumer Suggestion: Informed consumers can avoid these pitfalls

*Consumer Comment: Don't cry for the salespeople

*Consumer Comment: Manhattan Lincoln Mercury of Rockville, Maryland. Lincoln Dealer not honoring manroney sticker

*Consumer Comment: Just my 2 cents.....

*Consumer Suggestion: Dealer Markup

*Consumer Suggestion: Dealer Markup

*Consumer Suggestion: To Andrew from Texas

*Consumer Comment: Joe from Houston, Texas

*UPDATE Employee: Wholesale For Wholesale

*Consumer Comment: Bill I need your thinking! PLEASE HELP me with my confused thoughts!

*Consumer Comment: Translation

*Consumer Comment: FYI on how much a dealership/salesman makes

*Consumer Suggestion: Kelly Blue Book pick the vehicle you want

*Consumer Suggestion: fomer new/used car salesman

*Consumer Suggestion: Knowledge is Power

*Consumer Suggestion: Frank many have written books about the auto industry. Now read whatI I write!

*Consumer Suggestion: Follow the money

*Consumer Comment: Good way to start the New Year

*Consumer Suggestion: Dealers don't make money off of car sales.

*Consumer Comment: Response to Jarrod

*Consumer Comment: Response to Jarrod

*Consumer Comment: Response to Jarrod

*Consumer Comment: Response to Jarrod

*Consumer Comment: Auto dealer settles with state over ads in a state investigation of deceptive advertising

*Consumer Comment: Do you know if they put the MSRP stickers back on the windows?

*Consumer Comment: No Sympathy for Car Salesmen/Women! Take responsibility for yourself!

*Consumer Comment: You can' t seal the deal without the feel of the wheel

*Consumer Comment: How to buy a car, not get ripped off and be happy.

*Consumer Comment: Do they take advantage of uninformed buyers? Absolutely! That is their job. Is it right? No, but it will continue to happen until all buyers decide to do their homework.

*Consumer Comment: Do they take advantage of uninformed buyers? Absolutely! That is their job. Is it right? No, but it will continue to happen until all buyers decide to do their homework.

*Consumer Comment: Do they take advantage of uninformed buyers? Absolutely! That is their job. Is it right? No, but it will continue to happen until all buyers decide to do their homework.

*Consumer Comment: Auto Dealer's responses

*Consumer Comment: I see the name of the dealer has changed but nothing else

*Consumer Comment: Just do your homework first...

*Consumer Comment: Many of you are correct...

*Consumer Comment: Go to small claims court

*Consumer Comment: Fullerton Ford's Fault

*Consumer Comment: Fullerton Ford's Fault

*Consumer Comment: Fullerton Ford's Fault

*Consumer Comment: Melissa, I like you

*Consumer Comment: Rudy,,you are not reading right

*Consumer Comment: Melissa have you read your own postings?

*Consumer Comment: Rudy... Here's some advice for any one buying a car

*Consumer Comment: Response to Rudy

*Consumer Comment: I'm sorry your husband was called names

*Consumer Suggestion: They took it upon themselves to modified a car Buyer's credit application!

*Consumer Comment: Response to salesman's wife

*Consumer Comment: Thanks Bob....

*Consumer Comment: Thanks Bob....

*Consumer Comment: Thanks Bob....

*Consumer Comment: Thanks Bob....

*Consumer Comment: Gougers, period.

*Consumer Comment: Just had to comment being the wife of a car salesman...

*Consumer Comment: Ex-car salesmans' take on car dealerships...

*Consumer Suggestion: Hey Robert NONE of the pictures are fabricated!

*Consumer Comment: Something wrong here

*Consumer Comment: I tried to purchase a car there also AD reads $5000 credit for any car running or not, they tried to add and mix up the figures

*Consumer Comment: been to bill heard chev in union city, our society is now more capitalism driven at it's worst

*Consumer Suggestion: STOP SPOT DELIVERY...F T C SAID THAT WHAT THE DEALERSHIPS HAVE BAD BUSINESS PRATICES

*Consumer Comment: The bottom line

*Consumer Comment: Big Mistake, trying to figure out what your objective was by posting your message

*Consumer Comment: RE: "Leave us alone"

*Consumer Suggestion: Dave at B&B F with the BULL get the horn!

*Consumer Comment: LEAVE US ALONE

*Consumer Comment: Additional information...class action suit

*Consumer Comment: This dealership has had legal problems in other states

*UPDATE Employee: NEW MANAGEMENT

*Consumer Comment: Thank you, sir!

*Consumer Comment: Great Job Brandon!!!

*Consumer Comment: they don't display the msrp in some of the cars I bought a 2002 chey silvarado from them that had no sticker

*Consumer Comment: ...wealthiest business owners around ..all the more reason to check in on this site

*Consumer Comment: you are on the money about dealers not caring to do business with the informed buyer

*Consumer Comment: Criticism can make one look ignorant, what does that say about me? The claim that dealers want uniformed customers is misleading

*Consumer Comment: As with any retail business, we must sell at a markup

*Consumer Suggestion: To past guy and to Original Author

*Consumer Comment: Harry what's wrong with Chevy Cavilar?

*Consumer Comment: suggestion!!

*Consumer Suggestion: Car dealer deception MUST BE EXPOSED!

*0: Rip-off Report Investigation ...What is A Monroney Sticker? Federal Law

*0: Got a new car yesterday

*0: It's not illegal until you get caught!

*0: Still no customer service...

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I have pasted a copy of the actual letter that I sent to Bill Heard's corporate offices in regards to a recent encounter with one of their dealerships. For anyone who reads this I would advise that you stay away from their dealerships.

Brandon J. Stone
------------------
Mesa, AZ 85213
------------------

December 14, 2002

Bill Heard Enterprises
200 Brookstone Center Parkway #205
Columbus, GA 31904

To Whom It May Concern:

Bill Heard Chevrolet, 7224 E. McDowell Rd, Scottsdale, AZ 85257, ran an advertisement on a local radio station today that advertised a minimum of $7500.00 for your trade. I am aware of the fine print' of car dealership advertisements but I heard no such conditions after the actual radio ad, so I called the dealership to inquire. I spoke with Ray Mata who said that he was in the sales department. After he went and checked with his manager he came back to the phone and said that yes, in deed, the ad was correct and that there were no stipulations to the ad. [continued below]....
..... I made an appointment to meet with him later that night.

My brother and I arrived at the dealership around 5:00 PM and walked around the lot for a few minutes before Ray was able to meet with us. My brother discussed with Ray that he was a first time buyer and that he wanted to hopefully put no money down and just use his trade towards a new Chevrolet Cavalier. Ray assured us that this should not be a problem and that we need to drive the car first. Before we could drive the car though Ray needed us to go inside and answer a few questions. The questions he asked were basic such as name, address, phone number, etc. However, when he asked my brother to sign the document he also asked for his social security number. Before my brother signed the document I asked Ray if this was to run his credit. Ray said that it was not, that they just asked for the social. So, he signed the document and we went on the test drive.


Picture of the Dealers Market Value adjustment sticker, where Bill Heard wants $1,295 over the manufactures origional MSRP window sticker. This is not the manufactures sticker! See other photo's below.

When we got back to the dealership Ray went up to the tower' to see what he could do for my brother. When he came back he had a credit report in his hand. Now I'm not a car salesman, but I would assume that in order to get a credit report you would have to get a credit application first, so I'm assuming that either Bill Heard lied to my brother and I about what that paper was that he signed (which I unfortunately did not read) or they ran his credit without proper authorization.


Picture of one of GM's top sellers. This dealer does not like MSRP's on their top selling cars, trucks and SUV's, so they can sell them to consumers for more than the manufactures suggested retail price. A clear violation of the Monroney Law. Read Rip-off Report Investigation below


Ray's manager, Ernie, then came into the picture. Ernie came out and talked to my brother and me and explained that my brother, being a first time buyer, could only be financed on about $8,000.00-9,000.00. I said that was great, because after the $7,500.00 trade allowance that would put him at approximately $7,000.00 financed. This is when Ernie explained that the $7,500.00 minimum for your trade only applied to Suburbans. I explained to Ernie that the ad on the radio did not stipulate that and that Ray said there were no such stipulations. Ernie did not want to listen to that; he just said that I was wrong. Ernie then went on to try and push my brother into a used vehicle. My brother told him that if he wanted a used vehicle he would have gone to a dealership that wasn't 25 miles from his house, that he only wanted a new car, and that he was only there because of the ad that Bill Heard was running. Ernie asked what ad? After explaining to Ernie once again the ad, he said no, that I was wrong. We then expressed that we just want the new car, and if he could not do that then we would leave. Ernie said that he would go get the best possible deal' and would be right back.


A violation of Federal Law, ...Another, one of 22 vehicles on the lot with NO Factory Sticker If the car is brand new, it must have the manufactures MSRP Sticker!

Ernie brought back a piece of paper with the deal' written on it. Keep in mind that this particular vehicle had an MSRP of about $14,600.00 with about $1,900.00 in additional dealer add-ons, which should have brought the total price to about $16,500.00. When Ernie showed me the deal I was extremely surprised to say the least. Bill Heard was trying to sell the car for $17,988.00 plus fees! Of course when I objected to the price Ernie started to get defensive and then when I tried to speak in a professional manner Ernie started to get irate.


Even on their popular SUV's, no MSRP's , allowing the dealer to misrepresent the vehicles worth from the factory, a clear violation of Federal Law for this very reason.

I then started to negotiate the deal. I explained to Ernie that we would pay invoice for the vehicle, which was about $13,900.00 and that we were not willing to pay for the additional dealer add-ons (window tint, $299.00; painted pin stripe, $299.00; and market value adjustment, $1,295.00). Ernie said that these were on all of his cars and were not negotiable because that is what he paid for tint and the pin stripe. I then asked about the market value adjustment. Ernie said that it was to help people who were flipped' in their trades. I explained that my brother's car was paid in full, so that should be taken out. I also asked him about the difference. Of course Ernie had no idea what I was talking about. I explained that if you took the MSRP and added all of the dealer ad-ons, including the market value adjustment, that the total price should have only been about $16,500.00, yet he was asking almost $18,000.00. Ernie had no answer for this.



Ernie then said that my brother needed a co-signer. My brother said he wanted to establish his credit on his own and did not want a co-signer. He said that he would deal with the higher interest rate for a couple of years because he planned on selling the vehicle within three years anyway. Ernie didn't like that at all. He then said that he would not sell him a car without a co-signer, or cash down.

Throughout the entire deal I had asked several times to just show us what the payments would be with the deal that we want. Ernie asked Does it look like I do this for practice? So, I looked around the showroom and pointed out that there were no other customers there, so he had nothing better to do. Ernie said he had mush better things to do than deal with customers like us, like watch ESPN; which was on the TV in the showroom.

So, we started to negotiate some more. This time it was about the trade. Ernie, before he took the trade to get it appraised, said that we would get fair market value' for the trade. My brother's trade was a 1985 Nissan 300ZX with about 125,000 miles on it. I understand this is not a vehicle that a dealership can make any money on and would be sold to a wholesaler, however, fair market value in the Phoenix area is still about $2,000.00. So, when Ernie came back with $300.00 I once again was surprised. I expressed this to Ernie and he said would you pay $2,000.00 for that car? As a matter of fact, yes I would! I told Ernie this and he flat out called me a liar! I have never been called a liar, and completely resent that some car salesman, who is trying to screw my brother on his first car, would call me a liar! I had it at that point. I told Ernie that he must be used to selling Chevrolets because he does not know the longevity of a Nissan, or any import for that matter. He then asked why we were there; I once again mentioned the ad! What ad? For the third time, in a very loud voice so the entire showroom could hear, explained the ad. Ernie told me to leave, and actually escorted me to the door.

On the way out the front door, Ernie was in the way, so as I made my way passed him I brushed up against him. Ernie told me that if I ever bumped him again that we would have problems. So, now one of your managers has threatened me with bodily harm. On the way to my car Ernie is still trying to negotiate with my brother and me. I explained that he has already kicked us out of the dealership. He said that he just didn't like my tone. I explained to Ernie, in a professional manner, that if it were his mother or sister going to buy that same car would he let them buy it for that same price? Once again, no answer. At this point I got into my car, but upon doing so Ernie advised me that if he ever saw me on the street that he would wear me out. Is this anyway for you managers to promote business? As we were driving away he proceeded to show his maturity by calling me a punk and giving a hand gesture.

Believe it or not, this is the entire story. I was very calm throughout the entire night and said absolutely nothing to upset Ernie, with the exception of raising my voice in the showroom. There is absolutely no excuse for my brother, myself, or any customer to be treated this way by one of your dealerships, and I will NEVER step foot on a Bill Heard lot again. As far as being threatened by Ernie, you may want to discus this with him, because I would bet that I am not the first person who he has threatened and it's only a matter of time before someone calls him on it. That, of course, would be an ugly legal situation for Bill Heard.

You will note below the other places that I have sent copies of this letter to. One of them is a nationwide web-site dedicated to consumer advocacy, www.ripoffreport.com. If you check out that site and do a search for Bill Heard you will note that there are over two dozen other complaints on that site pertaining to your dealerships, not including mine. So this is not an isolated incident. I understand that Bill Heard is a larger dealership and that there are going to be upset people out there, but what we experienced tonight is not something that any potential customer should endure. If the customer service is like that before the sale, how is it after the sale?

Sincerely,

Brandon J. Stone

CC: Bill Heard Chevrolet
Chevrolet Motor Corporation, Customer Relations Division
Arizona Attorney General's Office
Federal Trade Commission
www.ripoffreport.com

Brandon
Mesa, Arizona
U.S.A.

Click here to read other Rip Off Reports on Bill Heard Auto Dealers

This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 12/14/2002 10:49 PM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Bill-Heard-Chevrolet/Scottsdale-Arizona-85257/Bill-Heard-Chevrolet-ripoff-fraud-to-consumers-Scottsdale-Arizona-UPDATE-Its-not-ille-38266. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.

Ripoff Report has an exclusive license to this report. It may not be copied without the written permission of Ripoff Report.

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#1 Consumer Comment

Your Kidding

AUTHOR: idiotsonparade - (USA)

So you wanted 7500 in trade for a car worth at most 2000 and wanted to pay invoice of 13K on the car u were buying ( allowing a profit of about $390 ) and u can't understand why the dealership wouldn't do it?   What a clown

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#2 Consumer Comment

Bill Heard R.I.P

AUTHOR: Consumerist.com - (U.S.A.)

or maybe, given the pains and trauma that some people have gone through with them:

B.I.H.: Burn in Hell
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#3 Consumer Comment

All 13 Bill Heard Dealeships Went Out Of Business Today 9-25-08!!

AUTHOR: Steve - (U.S.A.)

That's right. All 13 Bill Head dealerships shut down today and 2,700 people just lost their job. Again, I have no pitty for any employees who had anything to do with the defrauding of customers such as managers and scumbag sales reps. To those people I laugh out loud and hope you starve while you look for a job, and give you the finger.

The entire Bill Heard enterprise is officially out of business. Bill Heard has gone down in flames. They are completely finished. DONE!!!

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200809241828DOWJONESDJONLINE000907_FORTUNE5.htm

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/sep/25/na-bill-heard-dealerships-shut-down-operations/

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=7504583&version=4&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1
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#4 Consumer Comment

buh bye

AUTHOR: PuterChick - (U.S.A.)

from the story i heard ALL of Bill Heard is closing down nationwide. we have one here in town and they didnt give much info as to the reason. I have some ideas
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#5 Consumer Comment

Bill Heard Chevrolet in Scottsdale is down for the count. It's over! They are HISTORY! NEWS COVERAGE.

AUTHOR: Steve - (U.S.A.)

So to any Scottsdale Bill Heard employees who have posted here in defense, you have nothing to stand on anymore.

In fact, you don't even have a job. I have no sympathy.

See these YouTube news report videos on Bill Heard Chevrolet.

Absolute trash. They should all be jobless just like the Scottsdale facility.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU8edSsYhVw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ6fwnY2bWo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LItBCG58xE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v_Mjtdx3BA
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#6 Consumer Comment

Bill Heard Chevrolet in Scottsdale is down for the count. It's over! They are HISTORY! NEWS COVERAGE.

AUTHOR: Steve - (U.S.A.)

So to any Scottsdale Bill Heard employees who have posted here in defense, you have nothing to stand on anymore.

In fact, you don't even have a job. I have no sympathy.

See these YouTube news report videos on Bill Heard Chevrolet.

Absolute trash. They should all be jobless just like the Scottsdale facility.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU8edSsYhVw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ6fwnY2bWo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LItBCG58xE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v_Mjtdx3BA
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#7 Consumer Comment

Bill Heard Chevrolet in Scottsdale is down for the count. It's over! They are HISTORY! NEWS COVERAGE.

AUTHOR: Steve - (U.S.A.)

So to any Scottsdale Bill Heard employees who have posted here in defense, you have nothing to stand on anymore.

In fact, you don't even have a job. I have no sympathy.

See these YouTube news report videos on Bill Heard Chevrolet.

Absolute trash. They should all be jobless just like the Scottsdale facility.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU8edSsYhVw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ6fwnY2bWo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LItBCG58xE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v_Mjtdx3BA
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#8 Consumer Comment

Bill Heard Chevrolet in Scottsdale is down for the count. It's over! They are HISTORY! NEWS COVERAGE.

AUTHOR: Steve - (U.S.A.)

So to any Scottsdale Bill Heard employees who have posted here in defense, you have nothing to stand on anymore.

In fact, you don't even have a job. I have no sympathy.

See these YouTube news report videos on Bill Heard Chevrolet.

Absolute trash. They should all be jobless just like the Scottsdale facility.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU8edSsYhVw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ6fwnY2bWo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LItBCG58xE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v_Mjtdx3BA
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#9 Consumer Comment

Bill Heard Chevrolet in Scottsdale is HISTORY. GONE. SHUT DOWN!

AUTHOR: Steve - (U.S.A.)

These dillweeds got what they deserved and just got shut down.

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/125607

"The attorney general said the dealership advertised special discounts that it refused to give customers, pitched super deals on cars it didn't have in stock and promised to pay off money owed on trade-ins but didn't tell customers any negative balance was added to the financed amount for the new"

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/125607
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#10 Consumer Suggestion

Buyer always beware at car dealerships

AUTHOR: Cadreamin74 - (U.S.A.)

I always cringe when I hear of someone who is treated poorly at a car dealership. I spent several years as the internet director for a Lexus dealership, Mercedes dealership and Porsche dealership before finally leaving the car business in disgust. My experience in California may not apply everywhere else, but here's my two cents worth. The point I see is being able to buy a car at a reasonable or fair price (the lowest you can negotiate) in a reasonable amount of time, to be treated with respect and within the law. Unfortunately, real life doesn't always work in your favor. Many/most car dealerships have been owned by the same people for many, many years, and most still govern them as in the "old days," i.e. using any tactics necessary to sell vehicles. There's a lot of pressure in the business to sell and meet sales goals and numbers. Allocation of new vehicles is dependent upon performance. Poor sales = low allocation = no new inventory = no sales. There are many good people working at dealerships now who have more integrity than in the past, but most are not in management positions because most would not last under the dictatorships of the owners. My particular owner was very nice to the floor staff and mid managers, but was absolutely ruthless with his general manager, gsm (general sales mgr) and parts and service directors. Ruthless. And yes, the owner was very wealthy. They make a LOT of money. There's nothing wrong with it, but no one should be fooled into thinking that just because you're getting what you think is a GREAT deal on a car, that the dealership or owner is going to suffer much. There is more profit in a vehicle than most people (except GSMs, GMs, FMs (finance managers)) will ever know. Of course, out of the real profit the dealership must pay for a lot of overhead, which can be overwhelming especially for a luxury dealership. But there is no excuse for deceptive, predatory or unscrupulous business practices. If you experience anything like what Brandon experienced, I would walk out as soon as you become aware of a problem. Definitely if the Monroney label is missing, walk away. I can't image any dealership in California doing this, this being the car capital. There's probably more oversight here than in other states. But it could still happen. If you are treated poorly by a salesperson and a sales manager, walk away. Usually a salesperson has absolutely no power in the sales transaction whatsoever. They are there to sell the features and benefits of the deal, and use their sales techniques to close a deal with you. The decision maker (whether your offer is accepted or not) is usually the sales manager, and usually the salesperson will do nothing more than mimic or regurgitate what a sales manager tells him/her (and I've seen this literally, the manager will tell the salesperson exactly what to say, how to act, what tone to use, etc.). Most of the sales transaction is nothing more than an ACT. I like what a previous poster said about playing the game, and just doing it better than they do it. But many of us don't like to play the game. So it helps to have someone who does go along for the ride (no pun intended). The other option is to use a car broker who can usually get a good (tho not necessarily the BEST) or fair deal on a car price, charge a nominal f4e for services (about $250), and you don't have to deal at all with the dealership. I've also worked for an auto broker that was fantastic, you sign paperwork directly from the dealership that they get the car from, and you don't pay unless they secure a car for you exactly as you have requested. Back to the dealership.... don't sign anything unless you understand what you are signing and you agree to it. They can use it against you later, and they may just do that! Don't agree to sign authorization for credit check until you're ready to apply for the loan. You can and should negotiate the purchase price of the car FIRST and deal with the financing or leasing afterward. If anything is promised to you in the deal, make sure it's in writing (usually in the "Due Bill"), or don't count on it. Don't let the transaction get personal (sales technique 101, build rapport with the customer), it's his/her job to try to "befriend" you which will get your guard down, but keep it professional. I've heard so many salespeople talk about their kids with customers in response to the customer talking about their family, it's funny how one day they have four kids and the next they have two. The stories are just that, stories. Don't release any info that's too personal either. As far as added mark-ups above MSRP, these are usually reserved for vehicles that are in very HIGH demand (basic rule of economics). The new 09 Dodge Challenger, for instance. The sale price is the price that the market will bear, and if you want a car that 100 other people want and that the dealership has only five of, well then you'll probably pay for the privilege. But for more mainstream cars, you should be able to negotiate UP from the invoice. And always ask about rebates or other incentives (they are not required to tell you, so you might want to do some research on these ahead of time, on auto websites like edmunds.com). Consumer Reports always suggests negotiating up from invoice rather than down from MSRP, and from experience that seems to work the best. A word of caution, even if they play games (and you're still around after that), don't back them into a corner they can't get out of (totally humiliate them) because they'll only be forced to bite or attack you. That's never pretty. Car salespeople are on commission only, so it's their livelihood. You'd like to think that they would treat everyone fairly, and build a long-term clientele based on referrals and great service, which is what I tried to do, but most don't do business this way, they're much too short-sighted. Definitely do as much research about the vehicle as possible, making calls in advance is good but Brandon's story proves that even that doesn't always help. You may want to record any conversations you have with the salesperson, on the phone and in person tho they may not like it. Shop around. If you get a salesperson you don't feel comfortable with, ask for another one. Or talk directly to the sales manager and tell them what type of salesperson would make you comfortable. Never hurts to ask. I personally like dealing with women. That's an overstatement, but after being in the business, that's my preference. There really is a lot more to say, but hopefully this helps someone out there.
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#11 Consumer Comment

This is actually a common practice, unfortunately

AUTHOR: Pxcyr - (U.S.A.)

You know you shouldn't go to the grocery store hungry, and you shouldn't buy a new car without information and a buddy. I hate buying a new car by myself, so I make a game of it. I have been in sales and marketing for a while and have found a good system for getting what I want. I really love playing games with sales people and always offer to go with friends and family. I guess the best advice if you can't make'm play fair, play thier game better than they do. I have found that going in everyday for a week at all different hours with different people in accompaniment works well. And never being nice to anyone helps, don't be disrespectful. But don't take part in small talk, only talk business. For instance I got into a payment battle with a "sales manager" and simply kept asking "How much is the car?" (see they didn't have the MSRP sticker either) over and over over. Seems childish, but make sure that you pin him down, not the other way around. And yes threats are fun, just laugh hysterically and don't even address it with the salesperson. It's really a matter of winning the wrestling match. And these people (myself included) are paid to close the deal. Annoying them works really well, just keep it subtle. My favorite is this pen I have that's a really loud clicking ball point by parker, The Jotter. And just click it when the moment seems right. Over and Over, really fast, watch the blood boil. Good fun really. And always look them dead in the eye, even when there isn't anything being said. Test their nerves and you will get what you want. Make sure also to have a cell phone handy with other area dealers programmed in, this will really make them pay attention... interupt their offer with a phone call (never break eye contact) to the guys up the road. And always ask for a list of who they have run your credit through with addresses and phone numbers, BEFORE you consent to the check. When it's my credit, I ask that it be on a conference call with me giving the personal info and the finance mgr. giving the vehicle info. IT'S MY CREDIT. It's common practice to estimate how much to ask for, it's easy. The finance mananger will take your income and multiply it by the desired amount of years for the loan and then take 20% of that as the primary offer. example.
15,000yrly x 6yr loan x 0.2 =$18,000+finance charges+TTL+dealer Add-ons
They will run your credit until it can't be done any more (6 times in one visit) and take the highest answer to the table with you. These guys (myself included) high five each other when a "Good" deal goes through. Especially getting someone to pay 4 or 5 times what I got it for... let's not lie here... it's business. Happy Car Shopping!
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#12 Consumer Comment

Maroney Labels not required on trucks

AUTHOR: Bob H - (U.S.A.)

Sorry, but is is a fact that Federal Law does not require MSRP or Maroney Stickers on new trucks. It applies to cars only. Most dealers do have them but because they choose to or the factory will not allow them to choose.
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#13 Consumer Suggestion

My only question is why does Bill Heard chevrolet wind up in court with their customers so much?

AUTHOR: Stick - (U.S.A.)

My only question is why does Bill Heard chevrolet wind up in court with their customers so much?

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2000-021054

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2003-012676

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2003-024412

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2005-070744

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-091206

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV1998-007273

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-052539

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2000-017418

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2000-021794

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-013683

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-019617

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2001-020244

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2001-022539

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2002-005768

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2002-019943

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-008190

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-008191

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2002-020844

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2001-002707


Please can someone help me understand why this dealer winds up in court with their customers so much! Please help me understand.

I think it's about time I return to this dealership with my camera and take some more pictures to see if they are still breaking the FEDERAL MONRONEY LAW.
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#14 Consumer Suggestion

My only question is why does Bill Heard chevrolet wind up in court with their customers so much?

AUTHOR: Stick - (U.S.A.)

My only question is why does Bill Heard chevrolet wind up in court with their customers so much?

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2000-021054

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2003-012676

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2003-024412

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2005-070744

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-091206

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV1998-007273

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-052539

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2000-017418

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2000-021794

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-013683

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-019617

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2001-020244

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2001-022539

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2002-005768

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2002-019943

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-008190

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-008191

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2002-020844

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2001-002707


Please can someone help me understand why this dealer winds up in court with their customers so much! Please help me understand.

I think it's about time I return to this dealership with my camera and take some more pictures to see if they are still breaking the FEDERAL MONRONEY LAW.
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#15 Consumer Suggestion

My only question is why does Bill Heard chevrolet wind up in court with their customers so much?

AUTHOR: Stick - (U.S.A.)

My only question is why does Bill Heard chevrolet wind up in court with their customers so much?

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2000-021054

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2003-012676

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2003-024412

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2005-070744

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-091206

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV1998-007273

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-052539

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2000-017418

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2000-021794

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-013683

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-019617

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2001-020244

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2001-022539

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2002-005768

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2002-019943

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-008190

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-008191

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2002-020844

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2001-002707


Please can someone help me understand why this dealer winds up in court with their customers so much! Please help me understand.

I think it's about time I return to this dealership with my camera and take some more pictures to see if they are still breaking the FEDERAL MONRONEY LAW.
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#16 Consumer Suggestion

My only question is why does Bill Heard chevrolet wind up in court with their customers so much?

AUTHOR: Stick - (U.S.A.)

My only question is why does Bill Heard chevrolet wind up in court with their customers so much?

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2000-021054

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2003-012676

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2003-024412

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2005-070744

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-091206

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV1998-007273

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-052539

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2000-017418

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2000-021794

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-013683

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-019617

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2001-020244

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2001-022539

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2002-005768

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2002-019943

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-008190

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2006-008191

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2002-020844

www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2001-002707


Please can someone help me understand why this dealer winds up in court with their customers so much! Please help me understand.

I think it's about time I return to this dealership with my camera and take some more pictures to see if they are still breaking the FEDERAL MONRONEY LAW.
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#17 Consumer Comment

Red McMombs Toyota

AUTHOR: Cory - (U.S.A.)

Went to red mccombs toyota this weekend. A good 50 to 75% of the MSRP sticker were off the vehicles. A few had them on them on the dashboard or on the front seat. They might claim they came off when they added THEIR window tint but there were vehicles without tint, without stickers. Heck, there were new vehicles, fresh off the trucks, in the back, that hadn't been touched EXCEPT the stickers were missing. I wonder why? I didn't want to risk taking pictures and getting thrown out.
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#18 Consumer Suggestion

Arizona does not have a Attorney with balls or the knowledge

AUTHOR: Stick - (U.S.A.)

Chris in Euless, Texas you are VERY UNINFORMED! You have no idea what you are talking about. The Monroney law is a "Federal law"

Read the below and research BEFORE you run your lip.

Monroney Window Stickers
15 U.S.C. 1231-1233
Under the federal Monroney Act, every manufacturer of new cars is required to attach to the windshield or side window of the automobile a sticker prior to its delivery to the dealer known as the Monroney sticker.[22] This sticker must contain, among other things, the vehicle's make and model, the final assembly point, its destination, the manufacturer's suggested retail price for the vehicle, and the manufacturer's suggested retail price for each accessory or item of optional equipment.

Willful failure to attach or willful removal of the required label on a new automobile is prohibited by 15 U.S.C. 1233, and subjects the offender to fines and/or imprisonment. Complaints regarding this law should be sent to the following address:

Office of Consumer Litigation
United States Department of Justice
P.O. Box 386
Washington, D.C. 20044

The Act prohibits the sticker from being removed or altered prior to sale to a consumer. Criminal prosecution is possible under 15 U.S.C. 1233, for the willful removal of a label and is punishable as a Class A misdemeanor permitting a fine ($100,000 per violation for an individual and $200,000 per violation for an organization under 18 U.S.C. 3571) as well as imprisonment for not more than one year, or both.

Now, who I say in this state is protecting the consumer? Maybe if some local TV stations and the newspaper had balls and would do stories on scams at auto dealers, JUST MAYBE our state officials would get off of their FAT ASS and DO THEIR JOBS!

I know very well that 3 TV has NO BALLS

I can post many pictures of many local AZ car dealers that are currently breaking the Federal Monroney Law and our AG's office will DO NOTHING to any of them.

Car buyers in this state have NO PROTECTION from dirty car dealers in this state.

Like to see the action of a REAL AG's Office? Go peep all of the below url's

www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/jan/jan26a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/may/may19a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2005/jul/jul27a_05.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/apr/apr26a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/mar/mar31a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2005/may/may20a_05.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2002/nov/nov25a_02.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/may/may21a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/aug/aug31a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2002/apr/apr19b_02.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/jul/jul20c_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2002/nov/nov07b_02.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2006/aug/aug18a_06.html

The state of Arizona does not have a Attorney with balls or the knowledge to find deception in the auto industry Nor does he have the back bone to do anything to them if I hand delivered the Proof of deception to his office.

Nor if he did do anything, like SPANK a deceptive car dealer for ripping off a car buyer he would not have the balls to post it on his web site so Az car buyers would know wich dealers to stay FAR AWAY from.
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#19 Consumer Suggestion

Arizona does not have a Attorney with balls or the knowledge

AUTHOR: Stick - (U.S.A.)

Chris in Euless, Texas you are VERY UNINFORMED! You have no idea what you are talking about. The Monroney law is a "Federal law"

Read the below and research BEFORE you run your lip.

Monroney Window Stickers
15 U.S.C. 1231-1233
Under the federal Monroney Act, every manufacturer of new cars is required to attach to the windshield or side window of the automobile a sticker prior to its delivery to the dealer known as the Monroney sticker.[22] This sticker must contain, among other things, the vehicle's make and model, the final assembly point, its destination, the manufacturer's suggested retail price for the vehicle, and the manufacturer's suggested retail price for each accessory or item of optional equipment.

Willful failure to attach or willful removal of the required label on a new automobile is prohibited by 15 U.S.C. 1233, and subjects the offender to fines and/or imprisonment. Complaints regarding this law should be sent to the following address:

Office of Consumer Litigation
United States Department of Justice
P.O. Box 386
Washington, D.C. 20044

The Act prohibits the sticker from being removed or altered prior to sale to a consumer. Criminal prosecution is possible under 15 U.S.C. 1233, for the willful removal of a label and is punishable as a Class A misdemeanor permitting a fine ($100,000 per violation for an individual and $200,000 per violation for an organization under 18 U.S.C. 3571) as well as imprisonment for not more than one year, or both.

Now, who I say in this state is protecting the consumer? Maybe if some local TV stations and the newspaper had balls and would do stories on scams at auto dealers, JUST MAYBE our state officials would get off of their FAT ASS and DO THEIR JOBS!

I know very well that 3 TV has NO BALLS

I can post many pictures of many local AZ car dealers that are currently breaking the Federal Monroney Law and our AG's office will DO NOTHING to any of them.

Car buyers in this state have NO PROTECTION from dirty car dealers in this state.

Like to see the action of a REAL AG's Office? Go peep all of the below url's

www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/jan/jan26a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/may/may19a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2005/jul/jul27a_05.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/apr/apr26a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/mar/mar31a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2005/may/may20a_05.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2002/nov/nov25a_02.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/may/may21a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/aug/aug31a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2002/apr/apr19b_02.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/jul/jul20c_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2002/nov/nov07b_02.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2006/aug/aug18a_06.html

The state of Arizona does not have a Attorney with balls or the knowledge to find deception in the auto industry Nor does he have the back bone to do anything to them if I hand delivered the Proof of deception to his office.

Nor if he did do anything, like SPANK a deceptive car dealer for ripping off a car buyer he would not have the balls to post it on his web site so Az car buyers would know wich dealers to stay FAR AWAY from.
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#20 Consumer Suggestion

Arizona does not have a Attorney with balls or the knowledge

AUTHOR: Stick - (U.S.A.)

Chris in Euless, Texas you are VERY UNINFORMED! You have no idea what you are talking about. The Monroney law is a "Federal law"

Read the below and research BEFORE you run your lip.

Monroney Window Stickers
15 U.S.C. 1231-1233
Under the federal Monroney Act, every manufacturer of new cars is required to attach to the windshield or side window of the automobile a sticker prior to its delivery to the dealer known as the Monroney sticker.[22] This sticker must contain, among other things, the vehicle's make and model, the final assembly point, its destination, the manufacturer's suggested retail price for the vehicle, and the manufacturer's suggested retail price for each accessory or item of optional equipment.

Willful failure to attach or willful removal of the required label on a new automobile is prohibited by 15 U.S.C. 1233, and subjects the offender to fines and/or imprisonment. Complaints regarding this law should be sent to the following address:

Office of Consumer Litigation
United States Department of Justice
P.O. Box 386
Washington, D.C. 20044

The Act prohibits the sticker from being removed or altered prior to sale to a consumer. Criminal prosecution is possible under 15 U.S.C. 1233, for the willful removal of a label and is punishable as a Class A misdemeanor permitting a fine ($100,000 per violation for an individual and $200,000 per violation for an organization under 18 U.S.C. 3571) as well as imprisonment for not more than one year, or both.

Now, who I say in this state is protecting the consumer? Maybe if some local TV stations and the newspaper had balls and would do stories on scams at auto dealers, JUST MAYBE our state officials would get off of their FAT ASS and DO THEIR JOBS!

I know very well that 3 TV has NO BALLS

I can post many pictures of many local AZ car dealers that are currently breaking the Federal Monroney Law and our AG's office will DO NOTHING to any of them.

Car buyers in this state have NO PROTECTION from dirty car dealers in this state.

Like to see the action of a REAL AG's Office? Go peep all of the below url's

www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/jan/jan26a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/may/may19a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2005/jul/jul27a_05.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/apr/apr26a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/mar/mar31a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2005/may/may20a_05.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2002/nov/nov25a_02.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/may/may21a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/aug/aug31a_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2002/apr/apr19b_02.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2004/jul/jul20c_04.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2002/nov/nov07b_02.html
www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2006/aug/aug18a_06.html

The state of Arizona does not have a Attorney with balls or the knowledge to find deception in the auto industry Nor does he have the back bone to do anything to them if I hand delivered the Proof of deception to his office.

Nor if he did do anything, like SPANK a deceptive car dealer for ripping off a car buyer he would not have the balls to post it on his web site so Az car buyers would know wich dealers to stay FAR AWAY from.
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#21 Consumer Comment

You dont need an MSRP

AUTHOR: Chris - (U.S.A.)

MSRP is not required by anyone and certainly does now have to be followed. I mean try buying the hottest latest sports car when it comes out - you can pay 100% over the MSRP - the only price that counts is the one that someone is willing to pay for a car. They do have to have EPA stuff, but that is different than a made up MSRP sticker

You need to do research well before stepping on a car lot.

There is an ad run here all the time that says "do you want $7500 for your trade?" It DOES NOT say they will give you $7500, it just asks if you want $7500.

Your bro did sign a a doc that said he was willing to have his credit pulled. You should never give out your social #, and you should read what you sign.,
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#22 Consumer Comment

You dont need an MSRP

AUTHOR: Chris - (U.S.A.)

MSRP is not required by anyone and certainly does now have to be followed. I mean try buying the hottest latest sports car when it comes out - you can pay 100% over the MSRP - the only price that counts is the one that someone is willing to pay for a car. They do have to have EPA stuff, but that is different than a made up MSRP sticker

You need to do research well before stepping on a car lot.

There is an ad run here all the time that says "do you want $7500 for your trade?" It DOES NOT say they will give you $7500, it just asks if you want $7500.

Your bro did sign a a doc that said he was willing to have his credit pulled. You should never give out your social #, and you should read what you sign.,
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#23 Consumer Comment

You dont need an MSRP

AUTHOR: Chris - (U.S.A.)

MSRP is not required by anyone and certainly does now have to be followed. I mean try buying the hottest latest sports car when it comes out - you can pay 100% over the MSRP - the only price that counts is the one that someone is willing to pay for a car. They do have to have EPA stuff, but that is different than a made up MSRP sticker

You need to do research well before stepping on a car lot.

There is an ad run here all the time that says "do you want $7500 for your trade?" It DOES NOT say they will give you $7500, it just asks if you want $7500.

Your bro did sign a a doc that said he was willing to have his credit pulled. You should never give out your social #, and you should read what you sign.,
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#24 Consumer Comment

You dont need an MSRP

AUTHOR: Chris - (U.S.A.)

MSRP is not required by anyone and certainly does now have to be followed. I mean try buying the hottest latest sports car when it comes out - you can pay 100% over the MSRP - the only price that counts is the one that someone is willing to pay for a car. They do have to have EPA stuff, but that is different than a made up MSRP sticker

You need to do research well before stepping on a car lot.

There is an ad run here all the time that says "do you want $7500 for your trade?" It DOES NOT say they will give you $7500, it just asks if you want $7500.

Your bro did sign a a doc that said he was willing to have his credit pulled. You should never give out your social #, and you should read what you sign.,
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#25 Consumer Suggestion

Got my car

AUTHOR: Jody - (U.S.A.)

I got my car this week, thanks for the advice. I didn't have to go down that route you suggested, thanks to God!! Thanks again for sharing. Good luck to all of you who are looking for a car. And to those dealers who use misleading business tactics to gain business...just know it all comes back to bite you in one way or another.
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#26 Consumer Suggestion

Advice for Jody

AUTHOR: Vince - (U.S.A.)

Given your circumstances you may to check with organizations in your area who take cars as charitable contributions (perhaps Goodwill or the Salvation Army). Changes in tax laws have made it more likely they will actually give the better cars to people who need them. You need a car to work and seem like a good candidate. Buying a used car with damaged credit from a lot means you will probably be ripped off both in the price and the financing. Your other option is to get a couple of hundred bucks together and buy a really cheap used car from a private party. Use it for a couple of months until your credit has improved. Good luck.
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#27 Consumer Comment

USE YOUR CONSUMER POWER

AUTHOR: Terry - (U.S.A.)

While in the navy, I went to several dealerships to look at luxery cars. I test drove about a dozen different makes and models about six weeks before my re-enlistment, i then went back to redrive and reevaluate four of those after another two weeks.

Approximately one week before i was going to re-enlist I had it narrowed to two vehicles.
when I went to the Lincoln dealership a very pushy salesman kept trying to get me to commit to money down etc, when I informed him I was making my decision to buy today but would have the money in one week, he told me to come back and test drive when I had money.

Well I made the decision to get a Mark 8, not the Eldorado, but when I was starting to sign some of the paperwork the sales manager recognized me and said I had to deal with the salesman of first contact. After explaining to him why I wouldn't talk to this person he said they would still get the commission, I told him no the !@#$%^&*()_ would not. I then pulled a $32000 government check out of my pocket, showed the manager, and told him I had money but I wasn't coming back.

I then drove to the cadillac dealership, bought my first cadillac, and then I drove back to the Lincoln dealership and drove through their lot very slowly, while honking and waving to the manager.

Tht consumer has the ultimate power, the power to say no, exercise that power and your legs when you encounter rude, pushy, unethical treatment.

PS: That dealers actions resulted in my never ever owning a Lincoln. Dealers should realize that customer loyalty means repeat business, and an upset customer will surely tell alot more people about their disatisfaction, than 3 satisfied customers will talk about a decent experience.
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#28 Consumer Comment

Need some advice please!!

AUTHOR: Jody - (U.S.A.)

I found this website while googling "Bill Heard" Chevrolet. I was going to check out their cars this coming weekend but now I am not sure I will do so. I live in Atlanta, Ga and in Feb of this year I was in a car accident. My car was totalled out and now I have to shop for a new one. As a result of this my credit score has gone down. I was injured pretty badly and wasn't able to work and now I am ready to return. I don't have a down payment with being out of work for close to 3 months.

I'm not exactly you ideal car buyer but in order to work again I have to obviously get a car. I don't want to get pushed around or given a "lemon" because of my recent circumstances. my credit score was in the high 700's before this happened but now it's in the low 500's which is pretty rough.

This accident was of no fault of my own and I am simply trying to regain what I have lost since Feb. If anyone has any advice for me in regards to how I can get treated fairly I, would grately appreciate it. Thank you!
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#29 Consumer Suggestion

Mitigating The Risk To Buyers

AUTHOR: Robert - (U.S.A.)

The best way to avoid the hard sell and resulting victimization by a new car dealer and its employees is to avoid them altogether. Either buying online, direct, or through a service. Next best is to buy a used car and dodge the depreciation hit any new car buyer takes. The biggest difficulty there is the fact a used car is more difficult to finance and even the most experienced car enthusiasts sometimes buy a time bomb inadvertently.

Let's face it, the main reason anyone wanders into a dealership is because they don't the cash to buy outright and are looking for financing or have seen an ad that seems to fit their situation, as Sticks' brother did.

A slow moving vehicle may have just enough rebate to equal or come close to 20% down, which should be enough to get just about anyone into the car of their choice. This means the deal plays ball and doesn't pad the sale price to the point where the math doesn't work.

Again, there is nothing wrong with buying a car less than a year old and paying substantially less than what it cost new. It will have the balance of its original factory warranty and one hopes, be in good condition.

I would not suggest buying an auction car or one off eBay unless you're knowledgeable about cars and prepared for what may come your way. Many new-ish cars being auctions off that way are dogs with fleas, which is why they are being so auctioned. The same goes for a dealer's auction. If you're not up for adventure, steer clear. That is not to say there are thousands of great deals to be had along that avenue, but if you're not prepared for the risks, stick to the basics.

It cannot be stressed enough, do your homework. I have encountered salespeople at Jaguar dealerships who knew little or nothing about the products they were selling. They were simple template car sales personnel doing the best they could. High end shops are usually a bit more sensitive to their customers, simply because their customers tend to be a bit cantankerous themselves, but most are not immune to the nonsense that goes on at dealerships.

So, know your product, then get your own financing and insurance, I don't care what you're told by anyone, you will make a better deal on your own and you will be in a far better position to bargain. Not to mention saving yourself a lot of money.

Find a deal that at least indicates their commitment is to customer satisfaction, not with being the largest, busiest, or oldest shop in town. If their advertising is geared toward volume, so will their sales force be. Also beware of any shop running fire sale ads in the middle of the night claiming $19 acquisition sales, credit to anyone, and my all time favorite, every application will be accepted. Any huckster delivering this line really deserves to be shut down. They have to accept your application, anything else would be discrimination. Approval is what you're looking for, and that word is a long way from the dealer's mind when an ad like that is run.

This gem of dealership dishonesty is called tote the note. While not a new car phenomenon, it's when the buyer makes a down payment that covers what the dealer paid for the car at auction or as a trade in. All the other payments are gravy and little if any true credit is extended. If the car is repossessed it's sold again with under the same rotten terms. Don't fall for this scam.

Best bet in this regard, save your money and buy the car you want from a private seller who will let you examine and test drive their car. You will save money and yourself a lot of grief. Just as before, you can arrange financing before you even begin shopping for a new car.

The best sales people, no matter what anyone says, are the ones who don't hard sell, who don't pressure and who amass a loyal following of customers. Hard cases may sell a lot of cars, but they make a lot of enemies in the process. Burning just about every bridge they cross.

Satisfied customer return, they recommend, they sing praises, they create new business. And buyers aren't stupid, they know the dealership didn't build its fancy digs by giving cars away. They also know there are hold backs and an argument over invoice/sticker and best price is senseless. No, you don't ask a druggist what they paid for prescription wholesale, but you have no difficulty finding out, and you are not financing the purchase through the druggist, and no one is telling you your medication won't be available tomorrow, you must buy today, and as it was said above, the druggist charged everyone the same price for the product, it is not a negotiation. Dealers are free to go to a no-haggle format. They don't.

Fighting over misspelled words, and I note misspell was itself misspelled, doesn't make much sense either. There are no excusing bad sales and service practices by car dealers. There is no justification for a lot of what they do and they have earned the bad reputation they have. Sadly the bad outnumber the good. Buyer beware and protect yourself. Your best defense? Knowledge.

The dealership is not running out of your choice, there are more around unless you're looking at something really exotic or a discontinued model. The dealer will do just about anything to get a new last year's model off their lot. It didn't sell last year, it's killing their floor plan financing, they want it gone, accept no song and dance about how last model years sells for more than this year. DO NOT give your personal information to anyone. Name and phone number is enough for any salesperson at any point before preparing to close the deal, remember, you have your financing ready to go upon arrival at the dealership.

The salesperson is not going to lose their job, hunt you down or even get in trouble if you walk. They will be disappointed, but they will get over it. Don't waste their time, if they're full of it, walk, no sense fighting it out for an hour or more only to leave. He or she needs to move on to the next potential victim and you need to find another salesperson. You aren't doing anything wrong in shopping around.

DO make sure the VIN matches the sticker and the paperwork you're signing. Do not take possession of the car until the deal is closed, the dealership is paid and you have carefully inspected the vehicle you're taking home. DO NOT fall for the old stick number trick in print ads. This is the incredible deal on stock #666 that's $10,000 below any deal you've seen. That car or truck will always have just been sold or be something truly atrocious, stick, no air, instrumentation in ancient Javanese, etc. A dealer pulling this stunt is no better than the fire sale guys. Steer clear.

The best advice when traversing any minefield is to be careful and very, very observant. If you see danger sings, leave. If you aren't happy with your deal, walk. The buyer deserves their best price and financing, the dealer their best profit, the balance stuck is called a bargain, exactly what it should be, neither side abusing the other. Since the deck is stacked in the dealership's favor, much like a casino, it's unlikely the dealership or the salesperson is going to get beaten up too badly. The risk is to the buyer. Best of luck to all.
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#30 Consumer Comment

How many names do you respond with?

AUTHOR: Sarai - (U.S.A.)

It seems curious to me that you use several different names and cities to respond to posts with? To me that show a total lack of credibility. You responded to my first comment as Max from Florida and now you are someone else. I am not attacking you personally and by the way, my friends never ask me if I am on crack. I don't know or really care who you are. My point is simply this.

If a dealer took your keys and you had to call the police to get them back then it should be reported as a new post using that dealership name not the name of a dealership already posted here with an entirely different issue from almost five years ago. Thats it.
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#31 Consumer Comment

Response to Sarai

AUTHOR: Antoine - (U.S.A.)

Sarai,

First, your main problem is not spelling. As I said, I figured out that you meant "juxtaposed." The problem is that that the word makes no sense whatever, the way you used it. In other words you apparently have no idea what it means because you used it in a completely wrong manner. That is why I made the crack comment.

Now, about intelligence, since you seem to want to use a personal attack instead of logic. I would question the intelligence of a person who cannot understand the concept that comments on this site do not always refer to the original post but, rather, refer to previous comments in the thread. Nobody seems to think that these new comments redate the original complaint except for you. You seem to operate in your own world.

I would also question the intelligence of a person who can live in this society and not pick up on the fact that "are you on crack?" is a common idiom to use when you want to someone to know that you don't agree with their assessment, or that they have said something that doesn't make sense. People say that to their best friends. I can see how you might take it more as an insult because we don't know each other, but for you to go off on a rant assuming that I literally meant you might be on crack shows a real lack of intelligence.

My comment about the keys was a response to an earlier post. It was a valid and helpful post because many people who have the lost key routine pulled on them might not think to call the police.

Last, please tell us what your relationship to Bill Hearn Chevrolet is? Of course, I could be wrong, but you seem to get pretty emotional about this like you have some connection to Bill Hearn Chevrolet.
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#32 Consumer Suggestion

Ex Dealership Finance Manager

AUTHOR: Steve - (U.S.A.)

As a finance manager for the past five years, recently left the entire business, it can be very fraudulent and is no place for an honest man as myself. They call the business or F&I dept the "dark side." The training we all get is from hell. ALL dealerships MUST DISPLAY the MSRP stickers period! "MARKET ADJUSTMENTS" are bull! do NOT fall for this!

In the state of CT. ANY vehicle without the MSRP sticker is a 11,000 fine PER VEHICLE. Call your Dept of Motor Vehicles and report this ASAP if you see this practice at any dealership. Watch out for the finance tricks! Just when you think the sale is over and complete...HELLO, time to meet the finance manager! Here is where I would create a value in aftersell products that doesnt exist. Dent warranty, tire and wheel guaranty (BOGUS reimbursement policy!, watch out!)Credit life accident health! (for a car?!, use your own ins co!) The ONLY aftersell products worth the money is AUTHENTIC extended service plans, NOT 3rd PARTY! WATCH OUT!

If you buy a Ford, then buy a Ford warranty, if you buy a Dodge then a Dodge warranty. Dont overbuy in time or mileage, its whatever runs out 1st, please remember that! if you do 20k per year dont buy an 8/80~ it'll expire in 4 years, buy a 4/80, its cheaper. Watch out for powertrain plans! big bucks for the dealership, biggest ripoff ever. Purchase plans that cover steering, AC, front suspension, rear suspension, instrumentation, electrical, power group, ABS system. Negotiate for a 50 dollar deductable for the price of the 100 deductable plan. NEVER DO A 200 dollar deductable, RIPOFF!

Furthermore, GAP insurance is worth it, but dont pay a dime over 359 dollars for it, it cost the dealership 159@ 60 months, and 197@ 72 months. You lenders are now allowing 600 to 700! RIP OFF!

Another thng I was contracted to do is mark up the interest rates, for example, I submitt your app. to the bank, they approve it at 10 percent, I sell it at 12 percent and make BUCKS just on your finance terms! CAREFULL!

Always buy the last week of the month, delaerships have stair-step program incentives IF they reach their quota. Example, if we met our quota the dealership (and me) got paid an additional 500 per new unit retro active from unit #1 that month. And, dont bring your kids! Never rush this investment and have the dealership run a Car Fax on ANY USED VEHICLE! DONT BUY THE previous rentals!

Should anyone reading this want any advice or to know the actual truth of h**l-traps for the consumer before purchasing, feel free to email me (((ROR REDACTED E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR SECURITY PURPOSES))). Dont worry, I dont have a license to steal from consumers anymore. Carefull, your dealer does!

Sincerely,


CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.
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#33 Consumer Comment

Max aren't you intelligent

AUTHOR: Sarai - (U.S.A.)

Max in response to your rebuttal. I suppose that in your opinion anyone who mispells a word must be on crack. Having made that comment it appears to me that you must certainly have more expierence with this drug than most people do. Until now I wasn't aware that a sympton of crack use was mispelling words. Aren't you intelligent. Futhermore, as I pointed out in my other posts. What does someone taking your keys and a MSRP issue from 2002 have to do with each other? There should be a new post such as "Dealership took my keys". It is apparent to me, and probably anyone else that is reading this, that you lack the intellect to see my point and that winning the spelling bee doesn't mean that you are smart. I just want to let you know that ignorant comments don't give people the impression that you have anything of importance to write about. If this site is to be productive, than intelligent comments should be required and screened by the editor.
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#34 Consumer Comment

No problem with dating

AUTHOR: Max - (U.S.A.)

Sarai, with all due respect, what the heck are you talking about? The original post's date remains 12/14/2002. New posts do not "redate" the original post. Oh, and there is no such word as "juxtapost." Even if you mean "juxtaposed," that word does not fit here. Are you on crack, or what?
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#35 Consumer Comment

"misplaced" keys

AUTHOR: Max - (U.S.A.)

In regard to the writer who mentioned the tactic of "misplacing" your keys to keep you at the dealership. I was already well aware of this tactic when it was finally pulled on me a couple of years ago. After about 10 minutes of this, I called the police, who took about 15-20 minutes to respond. The salesman immediately "found" my keys. The police officer called the sales manager over and told him the next time this happened, somebody was going to jail. Score one for the consumer.
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#36 Consumer Comment

Thats exactly my point

AUTHOR: Sarai - (U.S.A.)

As you can see by previous posts and mine for that matter they both redate the original post as new. What does a channel 5 news story in another state have to do with an MSRP issue from 2002? I am certain that there are many justified posts however, as I stated previously, they should be dealt with on a individual case by case basis. Another example is the post "Where's my car? If you read this 2005 complaint you will see that the problem was corrected immediately however whenever a new comment is written the post appears as new giving the consumer the inaccurate belief that it is either new or there is additional information about the original complaint. The Scottsdale store has had only a few complaints in the last four years all of which have been resolved. If you look at the amount of redated complaints that show up it appears that there have been many more complaints. I am sure that any intelligent person whould have to agree that continuing the present posting protocal is not only wrong but also unfair. If this sites purpose is to give consumers information about businesses etc. then it should do all in it's power to report wrong doing accurately.
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#37 Consumer Comment

You need to PEEP THIS!

AUTHOR: Stick - (U.S.A.)

Note to all of you! Go peep the below and you all can be the JUDGE! I know much more then any national or local TV station could ever find about the "CRAZY" things many car dealers do. Problem is that many TV stations to not want to air what I know because many TV stations get most of their BIG ADVERTISING MONEY from car dealers.

http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseSearchResults.asp?lastName=&FirstName=&bName=bill+heard+chevrolet&x=80&y=6

I ask one question. DOES GM just look the other way? If so why? Maybe auto makers DO NOT care what car dealers do. Just so long as the UNITS ARE SOLD!

NOW go be the JUDGE, I can't
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#38 Consumer Comment

To the BH employee in Scottsdale

AUTHOR: Paul - (U.S.A.)

Yesterday, November 12, 2006 Nashville's Channel 5 (WTVF) ran a 5 minute story on the local Bill Heard location. They showed how BH will falsify financial documents to get ANYONE in a new car.

They showed that BH is still doing things on the shady side. This seems to be indicative of their overall operations nationwide as shown by the large number of posts on this website.

Therefore, Sarai, take note. This thread exists to show the ongoing rip-off by BH, the information IS new, and not just an add-on to a six year old post. The content is current.

I would suspect that the results of people's voicing their experiences no matter how old has lost BH a lot of business. So before you moan and groan on the content of the website, wake up and take a look at how they operate!
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#39 Consumer Comment

Irresponsible rebuttles and updates

AUTHOR: Sarai - (U.S.A.)

After reading your report and reading all of the voluminous rebuttles it appears to me that your method of posting your rebuttles is at best irresponsible. You have posted a report from six years ago with recent comments from people that have absolutely nothing to do with the original issue yet the original issue keeps coming up as new. I have found this to be true on many of your reports.

If there is a new complaint then in the interest of correct and responsible reporting it should have a new date. If it is old news that has been corrected or is now invalid then it should be placed by the date it was discoved. Your methods give the incorrect impression that your original story is new. That is extremly unfair and irresponsible in my opinion. I severly doubt that you will post this comment since it is juxtapost to what you are trying to accomplish however if you are going to report these issues it is also your responsibility to be fair and accurate with reference to dates and content.
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#40 Consumer Comment

several comments

AUTHOR: Amarie - (U.S.A.)

First off to the original author, bill heard here in nashville tn are crooks too. They say you're approved. You take the car home. About a month or so later they call back say you're not approved for the car and if you traded a vehicle in you wont get it back because its "already sold".

They then try to put you in a higher priced car and usually come in the middle of the night to reposess your car. To the person who said don't feel sorry for car salesman that's a COMPLETE lie! My husband has sold cars for Team chevrolet for almost a yr and sometimes his month is great and sometimes we get letters from bill collectors saying they want their money that we dont have.

We have a 1014 monthly mortgage and 765 car note that are both waaaay behind. Aand my car was almost reposessed once because he didnt make enough from commision to pay the bills. He even sold us our own car from his dealership and didnt make anything it was a house sale.

So yes heres a lil secret CAR SALES MAN HAVE FAMILIES AND NEED MONEY MADE OF YOU TO SURVIVE AND EAT AND PAY THE BILLS!! But just because they make money off a sell it doesnt mean its a lot! The minimum you make is $100!!! Car dealers jobs are not easy you spend all your time and energy on a person that may or may not buy a car. and if you dont sell a car that week tough luck no money! My husband had to quit and get a nother job for about a month because he wasnt selling any cars.

People want something for nothing in car deals. But that's not reality! It's just like a waitress or a pizza guy you tip them so why cant it be the same for a salesman? I'm not saying all salesman are good and nice but do your research before you go to that dealership. I personally was looking on kelly bluebook and was looking at a mercedes and on kellybluebook it said it was only worth 26,900 but the dealership was selling theirs for 32,000 that's quite a difference!

Yes on used cars dealers don't usually have the price on the car, that's because they can make it whatever price they want because its used. on new cars they cant. New cars don't make money used does.
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#41 Consumer Suggestion

The BIG problem is GM looking the other way

AUTHOR: Stick - Rip Off Report Consumer Advocate - (U.S.A.)

GM at one time could say "The Biggest Auto Maker world wide! They can now only say "the biggest Auto maker in the USA. I believe VERY SOON Toyota will clean GM's CLOCK if GM does not make some serious changes soon. All because the big 3 think they are still the BIG BOYS.

I feel that Ford,GM and Chrysler DO NOT want to hear what car buyers have to say. Nor do they want to hear American car buyers complaints.

Soon if no changes are made they will regret it in a big way. I am willing to bet that Ford and GM will be laying off many of their employees because Toyota is taking over.

BILL Ford, If you EVER READ what I post, DIG the Corp Peanut butter out of your ears and set up a web site called www.fordwantstoknow.com and LISTEN to what American car buyers have to say.

Time to take the tempure of the American car buyers.

If you are willing to listen to what car buyers have to say and do something to make changes, you will see your bottom line go UP.

You get me the top 50 corp guys at Ford, GM and Chrysler in one room and I will show you what it will take to put a stop to the cold fact that soon, Toyota will be come number 1.

Call up Automotive News and get Keith Crain on the phone. Get his reporters in the same room with your top 50 from Ford, GM and Chrysler.

Get me the top 150 combined from all 3 in one room and I can and will make some big changes for all 3 of you.

If you want to get a hold of me, Contact the editor of this site. We will set it up so that all 3 of you have the ability to make BIG CHANGES that will help keep your employees on the time clock and not the unemployment line.

All 3, Ford, GM and Chrysler have one thing that NO IMPORT car maker can provide the American car buyer and NONE of you are taking advantage of this tool. You keep sitting around and doing the same old thing and I can predict your stock value will go down. I have the ability to help you with your trobles!

Now it's your turn!
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#42 Consumer Comment

Bill Heard is a rip-off all the way around!

AUTHOR: Richard - (U.S.A.)

NEVER, EVER HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANY BILL HEARD DEALERSHIP, GARAGE, OR BODY SHOP!

No only do they like to rip off the average Joe Consumer, they also rip off insurance companies too! Here's my story:

My wife had an accident where she hit somebody and needed our 2004 Dodge Neon repaired. Since the accident was her fault, we went thru our insurance company to get it fixed. We were asked where we wanted it to get fixed, which shop in the insurance company's network? We chose Bill Heard Chevrolet of Union City, GA, because it was close to where I work and my wife's former boss had a car repaired there before with no problems. The Neon went into the shop and came back after about a week and a half. That's when the problems started. Right on the same day that we got the car back, we found that the headlights were out. We took it back to Bill Heard and had them fix the headlights. In the ensuing weeks, we found that the ground cable for the alternator was not hooked back up, risking frying the entire electrical system! Also, the motor mounts were broken in the accident and never replaced by Bill Heard, even though they were listed in our claim paperwork that they were replaced! (That was found by another shop in the insurance company's network.) Bill Heard has also screwed the paint job that they performed on the front of the vehicle, which had to be redone by another shop. Numerous things were discovered to be wrong with the vehicle over the next year, to the point that the insurance company finally declared the vehicle a total loss, all of them things that Bill Heard either did not fix when they said that they did or just screwed up entirely. The final dispostion of this situation came when the regional mangaer of the insurance company became involved, as well as the threat of a lawsuit (my wife's current boss is a litigation attorney). In the meantime, the insurance company became fed up with the amount of complaints and the things that Bill Heard that they had to pay for to have corrected at other more competent shops in their network. The desicion to toatal the car came after it got towed to a shop in LaGrange, GA and got a thorough once-over (this was after a hub bearing was replaced, and two days later needed to be replaced again!).

I don't even understand how Bill Heard even finds enough gullible people to stay in business the way they do. After we had this experience, we went back to the dealership we bought the Neon from (Landmark Dodge in Morrow, GA), got approved for financing OVER THE PHONE and then got told to come pick out a car! We got a 2007 Dodge Caliber for right at about invoice price! (Not many incentives available, as the Caliber is a VERY hot seller.) We were always treated with respect at this dealer(not to mention the good deal), and I will buy more cars from them in the future.

Bill Heard, please die in a fire!
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#43 Consumer Comment

DRIVE BEFORE YOU NEGOTIATE!!

AUTHOR: Jake - (U.S.A.)

In response to Ralph in Apache Junction ...

You wrote - "Courtesy Chevrolet does the same thing, and in some cases, sells current model vehicles with thousands of miles...not disclosed until Buyer gets into finance."

There is no excuse for finding out that a vehicle has thousands of miles on it when you are in finance. This is not the dealerships fault. ANYONE who does not drive a vehicle before they start negotiating on it is a fool, and deserves anything and everything bad that could happen in a vehicle transaction. DRIVE before you negotiate! When you're in the car, EVERY car has an odometer that even a trained monkey can access and read. It's stupid to spend that much money on something that you really don't know if you like driving. Each INDIVIDUAL vehicle is mechanical, and can have any number of problems from the factory. To waste time negotiating (by far the most unpleasent part of buying a vehicle) without taking the 5-10 minutes to drive it is STUPID! If the vehicle has too many miles on it and you are not comfortable buying it as "new," PICK OUT a different one, and .... DRIVE IT.

To rely on a manufacture's warranty as reason to not drive the vehicle is foolish. DRIVE it so you know you aren't buying a problem.

Still there is no excuse for the way you were treated by the General Manager at Courtesy.

Also to people going into a dealership. Remember that, although many are sleezy, salespeople are human too. Many people will reciprocate the attitudes that are displayed towards them. If you go in with a chip on your shoulder, chances are the salesperson will be less than polite with you. If you go in, respecting that the salesperson has a difficult, and unpopular job to do, you will be treated with more respect. If you're not ... ask for a different salesperson, or just leave. I've noticed that most people who say they were treated like garbage by a sales person, treated their sales person like a dog to begin with. What do you expect. You treat some one like s*** walking down the street, chances are they'll reciprocate that attitude. It's only human.

To Stick in Phoenix - I appreciate what you're trying to do by informing people of bad business practices and shedding a little light on those practices of bad dealerships. One suggestion - if you're so great at debating people, and if you feel the enforcement agencies that are in place are so ineffectual, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Run for public office ... that's how things get changed in a democratic republic! I'm tire of listening to people B**** and moan about things that they could truly help fix if they weren't too cowardly to run for public office. NUT up man! DO SOMETHING productive! I'm sure the people who visit this site would vote for you and tell everyone they know to as well. Heck I would.

Thank you for your consideration. Keep up the good work of enlightening the public folks.
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#44 Consumer Comment

ANOTHER BILL HEARD VICTIM

AUTHOR: Jeff - (U.S.A.)

I AM ALSO THE VICTIM OF A BILL HEARD, FALSELY ADVERTISED, CLAIM. I, TOO, DROVE SEVERAL MILES (50) TO THE DEALERSHIP ONLY TO BE TOLD THAT THE ACTUAL OFFERS WERE NOT AS ADVERTISED. MOREOVER, THE CORVETTES THAT WERE SUPPOSED TO BE AT THE LOT DIDN'T EVEN EXIST. MY CASE INVOLVED A DEALERSHIP IN NASHVILLE, TN.

TO THE AUTHOR OF THE ORIGINAL COMPLAINT - I UNDERSTAND EXCATLY WHAT YOU WENT THROUGH. NOT ONLY DOES BILL HEARD PRACTICE DECEPTION WITH THE CONTENT OF THEIR ADVERTSIING, BUT THEY ALSO TREAT CUSTOMERS POORLY. IN FACT, I HAD AN APPOINTMENT FOR 11:00 AM WITH A PARTICULAR SALESMAN. I WAS ASSURED THAT HE WOULD BE IN AT THE APPOINTED TIME. IN FACT, ALL THE SALESMEN AND EVEN THE MANAGER TOLD ME THAT HIS TYPICAL SUNDAY START TIME ISN'T UNTIL 1:00 OR 2:00.

THE REST OF THE VISIT WAS QUITE SIMILAR TO THE GENTLEMAN'S WHO WROTE THE ORIGINAL THREAD HERE.

BILL HEARD DEALERSHIPS ARE RIP-OFFS, THEIR STAFF IS CHOCK-FULL OF LIARS, AND THEIR DECEPTIVE ADVERTISING PRACTICES ARE SHAMEFUL.

AFTER WAITING FOR SEVERAL HOURS FOR MY "BEST SALESMAN" I LEARNED THAT THE CORVETTES I WAS INTERESTED IN DIDN'T EVEN EXIST ON THEIR LOT. AS I MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY, SEVERAL OF THE SPECIFCALLY ADVERTISED MODELS WERE NOT EVEN AVAILABLE. THE FACT IS, NONE WERE ON THE LOT!! ...OR ANYWHERE ELSE TO BE FOUND!! THEY DIDN'T EXIST!!

BILL HEARD DEALERSHIPS NEED TO BE INVESTIGATED - IN MY OPINION. I WILL NEVER AGAIN STEP FOOT IN ANY OF THEIR DEALERSHIPS AND OFFER THIS STORY WHENEVER THE OPPORTUNITY PRESENTS ITSELF.
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#45 Consumer Comment

No Excuses for unfair practices!!!

AUTHOR: Kenneth - (U.S.A.)

I do not excuse the unfair practices of Bill Heard, or any other dealer or place of business. I am just offering a solution to the Lions and Hyenas of car sales! I not only think the manufacturer should make stiff penalties upon an institution such as Bill Heard, I think our legal system should impose the fines it has already set forth!!

Unfortunately, we have agents of enforcement that choose to make up their own mind as to which laws will pertain to which entity! I only advocate a reformed system of compensation throughout the auto sales industry so that there will be a truer level of "service" for the consumer and a fair and equitable solution, and development, of a credible salesperson.

I adamantly support the full force of punishment to the "fat cats" behind the scenes that promote unfair and illegal buisiness practices. Once again, there is power of pursuasion in numbers and when most will refrain from going to Bill Heard because of his practices, I am certain you will see reform. It is not only fair to the consumer, but to all the dealerships that operate with integrity in that area!
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#46 Consumer Comment

Kenneth the problem with the manufactures is that they DO NOT CARE what the car dealers do to the car buyers.

AUTHOR: Stick - (U.S.A.)

I have seen MANY RIP OFF REPORTS where the car makers LOOK THE OTHER WAY.

For Christ's sake look how many Rip Off Reports Bill Heard Chevrolet has! I count 154. Now why does GM look the other way?

ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q2=&q3=&q4=&q5=BILL+HEARD&q6=&q7=&searchtype=0&submit2=Search%21


Why is this dealer getting away with REmoving the MSRP's?

www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff38266.htm

Why is this customer upset about her altered credit application BEHIND her back?
ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff52158.htm

GM is crying about their sales numbers. It has been said that Toyota is going to out sell GM to American car buyers. I believe it because GM LOOKS that other way when it comes to how their dealers treat car buyers!

Ford and GM both can look foward to LOWER sales numbers because they DO NOT want to listen to the American car buyers, NOR do they want to SPANK the deceptive car deaLERS THAT THEY CURRENTLY HAVE. They like to look the other way and "Dummy UP'
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#47 Consumer Comment

Real issues

AUTHOR: Kenneth - (U.S.A.)

I apreciate both sides of this debate and would like to inform everyone of what would be a fair and equitable solution for everyone. First of all, a salesman in a dealership is paid based on how many dollars he is able to seperate from the consumer, called a commission. The dealership makes profits not only from the sale of its vehicles but also from the warranty service work, the prep money for making the car "lot ready", the floor plan credits from the manufacturer and they even have dealer "holdback monies beyond the invoice. Unfortunately, the salesman out trying to provide for his family and himself is not paid commission on any of these factors. A Salesman is typically paid around 30% of profits after 3-500 over invioice (this is called "pack").


The consumer goes to a dealership wanting the best price available regardless of the service they receive or the actual product they purchase-PRICE SELLS!!! A sales man and consumer are therefore natural eneies and any semblence of friendship is false! If the customer gets the vehicle for invoice then what was the point of the salesmans time? The hourly rate would be terribly below any minimum wage! However, if the consumer pays $1200.00 over the monroney price then it is unfair to the consumer. Where do we find peace within this business? I may have an answer for this!

What if our manufacturers actually participated in the income of the salesman? What if the dealer remained an independant operator but the manufacturer would supplement the income of the salesman? Add it to the invoice, cost of production, whatever!!! We are overpaying the union based producers and absorbing the cost for them to spend months in rehabs, paying for their holidays off, paying for their shutdown weeks each year. Write to the manufacturers and suggest that for each vehicle a salesman sells at the dealership that they receive the commission the dealer offers and the manufacturer will have a scale payment, depending on the MSRP of the vehicle sold. I think you will find many more salespeople less pushy and stressed and I believe they would be much more eager to satisfy the consumer with product selection, pricing, and personal service!!! What if the manufacturer would pay 200-600 dollars per vehicle? Would that salesperson be more eager to sell volume rather than push some "sucker" into something they can hit a "home run" on?

I wish we had more people on this site that are willing to offer a solution rather than to just critisize. Use this tool provided to make a difference in our economy and personal relationships, not just sit on a pulpit and condemn whoever they see as adverseries. I wish everyone satisfaction in any retail endeavor. In our market either side has the right to say no for any reason, find the reasons to say yes and be pleased!
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#48 Consumer Suggestion

The Attorney General DOES care

AUTHOR: B - (U.S.A.)

In response to an earlier statement, by a car salesman of course, that the AG doesn't care, I fully and completely disagree.
I can give my own "anecdotal" evidence, but I have heard reports like this many times over in the decades I have lived in the Phoenix area.

In my "early" years, I had no credit and bought cars at "buy here, pay here" places. One particular place I had seen had been there for a long time, so I hoped it would be reputable.

The salesman showed me a vehicle, pointing out the odometer - it showed 66,000 miles. Even back then, that isn't much mileage. I asked him pointedly if that was the TRUE odometer reading. He got defensive, yada yada yada.

Long story short, I found out the vehicle had 166,000 miles on it, the engine was not taken care of properly (finding this out by a freeze plug that had rusted through and was leaking water out of the engine block while driving down the freeway only a couple of days after I bought the vehicle), it was an old piece of junk.

I immediately wrote to the AZ Attorney General's office, having had heard that they were very proactive to consumer complaints, that's what they're THERE for. I decided to simply wait on their response, and went into the dealership to make a payment. I was very surprised to find that the AG had sent them a copy of my letter to them, and had given the dealership x amount of time to respond.

The man who handed me the letter? The owner of the dealership. I pointed out the man who had made the claim, the title was also falsified. Yes, the title was also falsified.

He asked me what it would take to make me happy. ALL OF MY MONEY BACK, that's what. He handed me a check for the amount and I walked out. A week later, the place was abandoned. I never checked to find out if it was the AG's doing or what.

To respond to Dave of Brown and Brown Nissan, I also bought a new vehicle from the Brown and Brown in Tempe quite a long time ago. It was a Nissan pickup. Brand new, the engine had some kind of malfunction in it. Of course, paying for a new vehicle, one wants a perfect engine. They had a "fix" for it: take the engine apart and drill a hole in the engine block. The problem was that not enough oil pressure was getting to the upper portion of the engine; ie, the lifters, and was causing lifters to start making the clunking noise you normally associate with 20 year old vehicles whose engines are on their last leg.

I was not satisfied with this approach, the lack of oil surely would have at, the very least, diminished the longevity of the engine, that's a FACT. I was a car repairman for 20 years. Their fix resulted in no loss of engine noise, I had already demanded a new engine. Why would Nissan knowingly send out vehicles with engine defects? But they did, in, I think it was 1993 Nissan pickups.

Brown and Brown, of course, did not treat me right, I ended up getting rid of that truck and getting another vehicle. I wish I knew THEN what I knew now, I would have sued their @$$es, at the very least, made life very difficult for them. I never stepped a foot into a Brown and Brown dealership again, and I never will. And, from this site, I will never step into a Bill Heard dealership, either.

The only real negativity I have seen coming on here is from salesman. The car industry created the tense situation between salesperson and customer, NOT the customer, who is regularly screwed. Whenever I see outrageous stories like the original story in this thread, I avoid that dealership at all costs.
bb
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#49 Consumer Comment

Some dealerships are catching on

AUTHOR: Nichole - (U.S.A.)

Car dealerships are infamous for their number games. You know the whole deal with the writing the price on a slip of paper, is because they don't have to stick with that price. If they don't say it out loud so anyone else can overhear it, then it's the salesman's word against yours as far as what price he told you and he can tack on a bunch of fees. They get real mad if you take a picture of the price with a camera phone, because then they have to give it to you. Or tell them you have a down payment. After you get a number, tell them you changed your mind and want a trade. Probe 'em a little to see if they're trying to play you, if you can't tell at first.

This no MSRP displayed thing is pretty bad, but I think most people can tell when they're being messed with. Just leave. Give them no business. Worst thing you can do to them, really. And tell other people that they suck, which you did. Good job, there.

I went with my friend to buy a Kia. They were great. I guess it's different for cheap cars, but we were out the door for the price they originally said to us. We'd looked up on the internet and the price seemed right. Same thing when I bought my Saturn, albeit my car was used. I told them that I wanted to take it home for the sticker price. They did that. Easy-peasey.

So there, there's two honest companies. They exist.

(I'm glad you like the Hyundai. I guess that makes three.)
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#50 Consumer Comment

hyundai

AUTHOR: Bryan - (U.S.A.)

The only complaint that I have about Hyundai in general is the warranty. They advertise 10 years or 100K miles on the drive train, which they honor. However, the 5 year 60K mile 'bumper to bumper' is not true. Every 12 months or 12K miles items become excluded from the warranty. So, even though it does have a warranty through the entire 5 years or 60K miles, it is very limited after the first couple of years.

factory warranty is 5 year 60 k miles bumper to bumper. the 10 year 100k warranty applies to original owner or immediate family. i work for hyundai and they do not exclude certian things every 12 mo 12k miles except batteries
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#51 Consumer Comment

Common and similar practices in Arizona (Courtesy Chevrolet, Phoenix, AZ) - Here's why

AUTHOR: Ralph - (U.S.A.)

Courtesy Chevrolet does the same thing, and in some cases, sells current model vehicles with thousands of miles...not disclosed until Buyer gets into finance.

In Arizona, the scam dealers get away with it because there are virtually no consumer laws protecting the buyer of an automobile. It is "Caveat Emptor"aka "Buyer Beware. Only one persona handles compalints funneled by a strange agency named "Arizona State Banking Dept." This dept., in turn will forward a complaint to the State Attorney General, and they will both tell you that unless there are a sufficient number of complaints about the same dealer, the consumer is on their own.

I went with a friend to help them buy a new Avalanche at Courtesy. I know the business, and my father had a dealership. The General manager walked by when my friend was in finance, and overheard a comment I made, and then he went crazy - more, like Berzerk.

Mr. Guerro was his name, and then he called my female business associate every bad name you can think of.

Consider this before dealing with Courtesy.
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#52 Consumer Comment

My two cents

AUTHOR: Aafes - (U.S.A.)

This is an interesting, albeit old thread. It seems the OP never updated on his complaints to the manufacturer etc. although the responses if any would be of interest.

Dealers will sell you a car for just over invoice. With millions of dollars in inventory sitting on the lot they are paying interest on a loan to obtain the inventory as long as the car sits there. A car sitting on the lot is not conducive to the bottom line for a dealer.

I have purchased several new cars and have had the opportunity to walk away from inept, dishonest dealers and salesmen. Dealers have a major focus on selling you a payment amount - 8 out of 10 times this will work with the average consumer.

When I decide to purchase a car I do extensive research on the actual cost of the car to the dealer including destination charges. I will go to my credit union get a loan for the car for this amount plus 10%. Note this is not MSRP but invoice plus 10%. I walk into the dealer and ask the salesman questions about the car then when we go to "make the deal" I ask a pointed question - "Do you have the authority to make this deal right now?" It is either a yes or no, if no I ask to speak to someone who does.

When I have someone in "authority" I simply ask a whatif - What if I pay you in full right now $XX,XXX for this car, would we have a deal? The amount offered has never been more than 10% over invoice. I, more often than not, have walked out with keys in hand. On occasion the answer is no and I simply leave and move on to the next dealer, eventually finding a taker to my offer.

As I get a better loan deal with the credit union I find this method to be the best option.

When buying a car CASH speaks the loudest. The dealer won't make as much money, but the inventory moves and that brings in more customers. They don't lose either way.
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#53 Consumer Suggestion

BOGUS BILLY needs to be shut down!

AUTHOR: Douglas - (U.S.A.)

All of you people need to understand (and all of you made some good points). BOGUS BILLY has been in trouble all over the country. In Florida alone, BOGUS BILLY, Mr. Big Volume and to pay a BIG penalty to the Attorney General of over $300,000! And yet GM continues to allow this SLIME to represent them! GM is wallowing in red ink...nearing bankruptcy! TOO BAD...SO SAD!

For going along with the fraud and deception within THEIR GM dealerships, let GM circle the drain and run into the sewer like your worst case of diarehha.

Let Bogus Billy continue to choke on the STENCH of his pond scum operation.
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#54 Consumer Comment

Consumers Rip Off?

AUTHOR: Pam - (U.S.A.)

Car buying is the only retail that allows you to "negotiate" a price. Try buying a house and telling them that you want it 20% lower.

The average "markup" from Invoice to MSRP in the automobile industry is 8%, but if you look at the invoice and then the MSRP and see a whopping $400 difference, who is making money?

Tell me, would you go into a bar and ask how much do you pay for your beer? I will only pau that price, you'd get booted out. Go to a Jewelry store (which averages a 200% markup) and tell them that you will only pay invoice.

Businesses are in business to make money, not give it away to people who feel they are "owed" something.

When buying a car, go to their website, request a quote. You will get 2% UNDER invoice. Why? Because you took the time to do research. Also, if you go to Ford.com, Chrysler.com and so on, you can check the inventory of the dealerships, see the window stickers and find out what rebates there are on each. If you go to every dealership and look up IDENTICAL cars, same features and options, you will pay the same at either. The difference would be, down payment or trade value.

Remember, NEVER ask for a trade amount on the internet. When using KBB.com, unless the car has NO miles and has never been on the road, it is NOT in EXCELLENT condition. Most consumers want MORE for the trade than what it is worth!

Also, just an FYI 86% of people buying a car, buy a different vehicle than what they originally went in for!
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#55 Consumer Suggestion

a little advice

AUTHOR: Chester - (U.S.A.)

My first comment is for "Roy". I just wanted to point out that not all MSRP stickers are placed on the rear driver's side windows. Some companies place them on the passenger side. Some front, and some rear, although I usually only see them on the front passenger side when it is a coupe, convertible, or SUVs & vans with the rear windows tinted. I do see where you're comming from, though.

As for those of you who had these problems, all I can tell you is most of these car salesmen are sizing you up from the second you walk in the door.Think of them as schoolyard bullies. They will try to go as far as they can, if you dont stop them. I dont sell cars and I've never had an issue with a dealer, either, but they sure have tried. The best thing you can do is research BEFORE walking into a dealer. Educate yourself.

Know what you want, what its purpose will be, the specs, features, options, packages, incentives, even available colors before you go in. The internet makes this very easy, and helps you find what other, comparable cars are out there that could suit your needs/wants. The better prepared and knowledgeable you are, the less of a "victim" you stand to be. Next,be realistic. Remember that if there is a car that is selling as fast as they come in, you're NOT going to have much room to negotiate, because there WILL be someone else who comes in, and buys the car without making much of a "stink" about it.

In that situation, you have to remember that the dealer is in this to make money, so, for example, say you're looking into a loaded 2006 Honda Civic and MSRP is 20k. You want it for 17k. It will be very hard for you to get that deal because the dealer knows that someone will walk in right behind you and pay the full 20k. Dont expect the dealer to give it to you because you're a nice guy and the salesman is your friend. WRONG! Money is his/her friend, not you. Next, size up you salesman, as he is doing to you. Ask how long he's been there, see how much he actually knows about the car. Did you ever notice that there are always sales positions open at dealerships, and for many of them you dont even need experience? I have regularly come across salespeople that knew very little about the cars they're selling.

A friend took me with him once because he wanted a Mustang GT. The salesman tried to convince him that the car was a v8 with a TURBO! There is no such mustang! Once you get past all of this and you're ready to make a deal for the car you want, pay attention to EVERYTHING! When your salesman is typing into his computer, dont be afraid to lean over and SEE whats on his screen. I have a relative that went to buy a 2002 Maxima, and called to to ask my opinion because it seemed like a very high payment. At the time, it was 22k for the car and he was puting 5k down. I went down to meet him at the dealer, and saw the salesman entering a financing ammount 7k higher than the actual ammount! He had it as selling price 29k and 5k down!And he had all the paperwork ready for my relative to sign! I caught this because I leaned over and read EVERYTHING on his computer screen. He acted like it was a mistake and thats what he thought the price of the car was. Yea, right! But, if he had agreed to that deal, that would be the end of it. He would have been stuck.

Also, no matter how good your credit is, they will always play it down. This would justify the dealer giving you a higher rate than what you actually qualified for. For example, a bank may approve you for 10%, but, the dealer told you the best he could get you was 13%. If you agreed, now you're stuck. The dealer now made extra money. So, you thought you worked out the deal you wanted, but in the end, the dealer still got the total they wanted for the car by playing with your interest rates. Now, as far as trade-ins, it can be better for you if you work out a deal without ever mentioning you have a trade in. Once you agree on a price, then bring the trade to the negotiating table. Telling them from the start gives them more ways to play with numbers. For example, say you saw/heard/read an advertisement that said "any trade 3,500. Push it, pull it, tow it in", so you do bring a trade. They can tell you that they will give you 3500, but, if you're paying attention and reading everything, you will end up seeing that somehow, between the price of the new car, your interest, etc. you really ended up with the same deal as you would at another dealer that was only giving you wholesale for your trade.

So, was it really 3500 that you got? Its the same for those of you who lease. When the ad says they will "take over your lease", they are NOT taking anything over. The lease must still be paid. What they are doing is puting those remaining payments into your new payments. Technically, you're still responsible for those remaining payments. Of course, you cant expect them to volunteer this piece of information, since it is not in their best interest to do so. You cant say they lied to you, because, they never mentioned it and you never asked.

This is where your reasearch and knowledge comes in. Finally, do not accept delivery before you have been approved by a bank. You just set yourself up. Whatever deal you think you're getting, is probably out the window now. That is the whole idea of letting you take the car home. You're exited about your new car, and you start getting attached to it. A week later, they can say, "Sorry, you didnt get approved. We need you to come back with the car." At this point, you dont want to give up your car, and they know this. You just gave them the upper hand. Not to mention that the car you traded in might be gone already. Now they can say you need more money down, or that the only bank that is approving you is at a higher interest rate. This applies to anybody, but even more if you have less than ideal credit.

Now, I am not a car salesman, or some kind of expert. What I can say is that I have always managed to end up with a good deal. Now, Im like the "go-to" guy for all my friends and relatives when they're in the market for a car. So far, they have all been very happy.
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#56 Consumer Comment

Leave us alone? You're too worried about PRICE???

AUTHOR: Heidi - (U.S.A.)

You people really need to step back and shut up!

The pitiful little poor dealerships are just trying to scrape by on the little markup from the MSRP? Get real!

Why don't you explain how much they mark up all of the extra crap they pile on to your loan in the finance department? They sell extended warrantys for 3-4 times the amount the dealership gets them for, maintenance agreements are marked up, (then discounted when you say you don't want to buy them), and don't even get me started on the rip off Lo Jack, Gap Insurance and Paint Protection. I have actually had finance managers get up and huff out of their office because I didn't want to buy all of their extra crap.

Trust me, with the mark up on all of the "extras" and what they make on labor charges for maintenance work, they are making plenty of money!
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#57 Consumer Comment

Why the passenger side?

AUTHOR: Roy - (U.S.A.)

I would still like an answer from the original poster as to why all of your pictures are taken from the passenger side of the car. The MSRP stickers are on the driver side of the car usually on the rear window. This is done for two reasons:

1) When consumers look at vehicles to purchase they immidiately go to the driver side of the car.

2) When test driving a vehicle the stickers being on the driver side of the vehicle reduce blind spots for drivers.(If they were on the passenger side rear window the blind spot would be terrible and unsafe).

The way the pictures have been taken it seems this consumer is out for a fight any way they can find it even if they have to skue perception in their favor. No I don't work for Bill Heard and never will I work for Bill Heard I just have a problem with people fighting a battle and making things up as they go along.
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#58 REBUTTAL Individual responds

Cars and Real Esate are two very different things!

AUTHOR: B - (U.S.A.)

Ones an asset ones a depreciating asset. I say get the best deal you can cause in two years when you trade it in there going to steal it from you. If you do buy a chev be very very frugal on options and get all the rebates heck im willing to wait 6 months until the better offers come back. Now im considering a cobalt i have seen them advertised for $9200 striped out brand new 2006. Im guessing if i wait another couple months i can save more. Im not cheap just savey and not really willing to loose money on a car purchase unless its a honda. Im the buyer and i wear the pants and am in charge or guess what i walk away with my check book in hand. Now if i was purchasing a new 06 honda civic the dealer wears the pants there selling like hot cakes.
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#59 Consumer Suggestion

To Dave from Mesa, AZ

AUTHOR: Chan - (U.S.A.)

You know that only the seller pays the 6% in real estate, right? The buyer pays for the house and other costs of course, but there is no finder's fee or anything like that.
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#60 Consumer Suggestion

Informed consumers can avoid these pitfalls

AUTHOR: Santos - (U.S.A.)

Just my 2 cents, I've read and glazed over most of the posts and come to the conclusion that the decision I made over 5 years ago never to purchase a new or used vehicle from a dealership has been a sound one. Please READ THIS: If you want a new car you DO NOT HAVE TO GO TO A DEALERSHIP! There a numerous car buying services that will help you purchase the exact vehicle you want. Most of these car buying services will usually charge around 300 dollars for their service. But you get to tell them what you want, how you want it, what color you want, what accessories you want and you'll never have to deal with a single salesman, this alone is worth the fee. The last car I bought from a dealership was in 1998, I've purchased or traded in a total of four vehicles since then and have never had to return to a dealership. My specific go to place is called (((REDACTED))),



sorry, allowing you to give a competitors name would instigate others to just file against their competition, to only come back later to suggest their company your comments on this policy are welcome! CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.



they are directly connected with my Credit Union (I don't do regular banks anymore either) which makes it that much easier. They work directly with my Credit Union but also work with other lenders. Let me give you an example, my last major purchase was a Ford Expedition, I chose the color and options and got all the rebates and incentives plus the lowest price possible because the dealerships know they can't BS these types of car buying services (it's the educated consumer syndrome). When all was said and done a vehicle that invoiced for just under $40,000 before rebates went out the door to me for just under $32,000. You don't have to take my word for it, everyone here has access to the web, research it, do your homework and if you still think that walking into a dealership is a better idea then by all means go ahead. But at least do the one thing you can to give yourself some type of leverage and that is to get PRE-APPROVED before you go. Even if the dealer tells you that they work directly with your bank DON'T FALL FOR IT, get your own financing option in place first. The rates that look so tempting and advertised as such are for people with FICO scores well above the average consumer, usually 740 and above. However individuals with that type of rating usually have it because they are financially savvy and wouldn't be in a dealership in the first place. It's shocking to hear of how often consumers still walk into a dealership (first big mistake) unsure of their credit score or credit standing (second big mistake) without pre-approved financing in place (third and biggest mistake) and then are still surprised when a salesman tries to give them the ol'shaft.
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#61 Consumer Comment

Don't cry for the salespeople

AUTHOR: R - (U.S.A.)

While I understand everthing that has been written so far I have no sympathy for the people who sell cars or the ones who buy them.



I have been fortunate enough to have had friends in the business and do not have to worry about getting ripped off. This is the only way I will buy a new vehicle and would never go to one of the huge dealerships.



I have a friend that works at a NIssan dealership in sales and while he does work long hours usually 12 hours a day 6 days a week he makes over 100,000.00 per year. He has been offered management jobs but he won't take them because it would mean a drop in pay. If I go to him he can give me the best deal on a trade and a car because he is the top salesperson there and he makes them loads of money. He will only make 50.00 on my deal but believe me he makes up for it. He averages 80 cars a month so it evens out.



I have another good friend that is the General Manager at a Honda store. Once again all I need to do is call and I have the best deal upon walking in.



I suppose I am luckly this way but anyone can become friends with a salesperson and get a better deal.



And FYI I sold cars way back in the early 80's at a Lincoln-Mercury dealership. The invoice that the salesmen show is the actual invoice but there are other incentives that the public does not know about. There is the holdback from the manufature and there are also showroom incentives and others that do not have to be offered to the public.



Also where the dealer really makes money is the add on's. We used to sell protection for the cloth seats at 250.00 when our cost was only 25.00. It is the same way on tinting windows, custom rims or anything that can be purchased aftermarket.



Keep this in mind when you buy a car that it is usually cheaper to get a fairly basic car and get the options somewhere else.
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#62 Consumer Comment

Manhattan Lincoln Mercury of Rockville, Maryland. Lincoln Dealer not honoring manroney sticker

AUTHOR: Candice - (U.S.A.)

I purchased a new 2004 Lincoln towncar from Manhattan LM of Rockville, Md. in Sept 2005. The window sticker states as an extra option that the car, an Ultimate model comes with 9 spoke chrome/aluminum wheels. when the car was delivered, it had 14 spoke painted aluminum wheels that come standard on a Signature model. I called the Lincoln div who stated that the car came with chrome wheels. I took the car to our local Columbia, SC Stivers Lincon dealer who checked it out and verified that my car had the wrong wheels on it. I have contacted the Manhattan dealer, spoke and emailed the owner, Jerry Jaffe, a munber of times and just got a runaround and he refused to do anything about it, he keep saying it had to a misbuild and would file a claim. This he never did as I checked with the Lincoln Div of Form Motor Co. I believe the wheels were swithced and my chrome wheels went to another car. I offered a cheap solution, send me four chrome rims plus $280.00 for shipping all rims, changing tires.etc. At First he agreed, then never responded back. I believe a dealer must honor a manroney sticker.
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#63 Consumer Comment

Just my 2 cents.....

AUTHOR: Robert - (U.S.A.)

I usually don't buy new cars... too expensive and I guess I'm cheap.. couple of years ago, I needed a second vehicle and decided to buy a pickup.. Saw a Ford Ranger (which I love BTW). Went to the dealer and worked with a great saleslady.. We just about settled on a truck when the sales manager jumped in with the "ok, what do I have to do to put you in this truck TODAY!!" The hard sell was on..

I got up, walked out and went to another dealer..



The saleslady (I like working with them) came up and ask if I needed help. I told her I wanted to BUY a truck, NOT be sold one..



She smiled, told me to call her if I needed help. I found one I wanted. We sat, negotiated a fair price and I bought a truck from them. Sometimes you find the good ones... most times, though, thier idiots.
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#64 Consumer Suggestion

Dealer Markup

AUTHOR: Jerry - (U.S.A.)

First, the Monroney stickers should be on all vehicles.



People allways want the best deal. If there is only 15% markup, why are Expeditions with $41,000 Monroney stickers sold for $28,500, what we and others I know paid for ours. Much is about the type of car and supply and demand, also look at gas prices. Hot new disigns with good milage command sticker price and no amount of dickering will get you a discount. Gas guzziling SUV's with 300 units on a dealers back lot listing at 35 to 40k, 8 to 10k off in heart beat with more to come off with a little dickering. Remember you also have to negoiotate the interest rate also. Even with good credit many dealers will try to make a little on the back end. Ford may offer 0%, but if your credit score is a little low and they will offer 6.9% or other.

If you are buying a hot selling car they will stick to that. If you are buying a car that they have a huge inventory of and need to move, ask for the 0% or leave, you will most likely get it or a better offer. ( axe murderers can get 0% from Ford

on Expeditions) It all horse trading. If you don't like the deal, leave. A good salesman will call you back if he can do better. But you may not get a good salesman at every dealer.



Remember you have to ask for the deal, whether you are buying or selling. The car will be there later. Don't be afraid to leave. If you make an offer to buy with no conviction on your part, you might as well stay home.



The dealer does not have to make a profit.

Sometimes it is in thier best interest to unload a lot of cars for a loss or a wash.



But remember , look around in your area and talk to people you know about car prices in your area.

To buy the 10% markup idea across the board is dumb.



Also remember: most people, when asked how much did you pay for it, will inflate the price of a house and deflate the price of the car.
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#65 Consumer Suggestion

Dealer Markup

AUTHOR: Jerry - (U.S.A.)

First, the Monroney stickers should be on all vehicles.



People allways want the best deal. If there is only 15% markup, why are Expeditions with $41,000 Monroney stickers sold for $28,500, what we and others I know paid for ours. Much is about the type of car and supply and demand, also look at gas prices. Hot new disigns with good milage command sticker price and no amount of dickering will get you a discount. Gas guzziling SUV's with 300 units on a dealers back lot listing at 35 to 40k, 8 to 10k off in heart beat with more to come off with a little dickering. Remember you also have to negoiotate the interest rate also. Even with good credit many dealers will try to make a little on the back end. Ford may offer 0%, but if your credit score is a little low and they will offer 6.9% or other.

If you are buying a hot selling car they will stick to that. If you are buying a car that they have a huge inventory of and need to move, ask for the 0% or leave, you will most likely get it or a better offer. ( axe murderers can get 0% from Ford

on Expeditions) It all horse trading. If you don't like the deal, leave. A good salesman will call you back if he can do better. But you may not get a good salesman at every dealer.



Remember you have to ask for the deal, whether you are buying or selling. The car will be there later. Don't be afraid to leave. If you make an offer to buy with no conviction on your part, you might as well stay home.



The dealer does not have to make a profit.

Sometimes it is in thier best interest to unload a lot of cars for a loss or a wash.



But remember , look around in your area and talk to people you know about car prices in your area.

To buy the 10% markup idea across the board is dumb.



Also remember: most people, when asked how much did you pay for it, will inflate the price of a house and deflate the price of the car.
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#66 Consumer Suggestion

To Andrew from Texas

AUTHOR: Jessica - (U.S.A.)

They want "uniformed" customers? Or uninformed?
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#67 Consumer Comment

Joe from Houston, Texas

AUTHOR: R - (U.S.A.)

You're a typical car salesman.



An illiterate, incoherent, rambling piece of dog poop.



Keep working on that GED.



You should have it in just a few more years.
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#68 UPDATE Employee

Wholesale For Wholesale

AUTHOR: Joe - (U.S.A.)

Well gentlemen the author of the original complaint is the typical pain in the ass customer. He wants to get Wholesale for the new car and Retail for the trade in. When they try to hit you where they should have been wholesale for wholsale or retail for retail you flipped out. If you would have bought the trade in for 2000.00 you should have opened your big ass mouth and bought the car for 2000.00 and taken the trade out of the picture. You are the typical think you know it all customer that wants to bitch and complain like a child if you dont get it exactually your way.
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#69 Consumer Comment

Bill I need your thinking! PLEASE HELP me with my confused thoughts!

AUTHOR: Stick - (U.S.A.)

Hey Bill Foley Please can you help me! Whats your thinking on this Bill Heard Chevy Rip Off Report ? Do you think tthis lady got a fair shake? Gotta love the 3 pic's in this Below URL



www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff52158.htm



By the way Bill do all of your new cars have the MSRP still sticking where GM put them or are they missing? A clear violation of the Monroney Law
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#70 Consumer Comment

Translation

AUTHOR: Steve - (U.S.A.)

Original Post:



"NEW MANAGEMENT



Please note that the Management at Bill Heard Scottsdale, AZ has been replaced as of March 2004. This includes the General Manager. Also, the employees mentioned in this report are no longer employed at Bill Heard Scottsdale. We are distressed that the individual consumer is not satisfied with his/her transaction at this location. We ask that we be given another chance to show just how business practices here have changed to the better. Should a prospective customer have opinions or suggestions, we welcome these comments in order to better serve you.



Bill Foley

Internet Director

Bill Heard Chevrolet

Scottsdale, AZ

480-481-6519

bfoley@billheard.com



Bill - Scottsdale, Arizona

U.S.A."



TRANSLATION:



Give us another chance to screw you.
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#71 Consumer Comment

FYI on how much a dealership/salesman makes

AUTHOR: John - (U.S.A.)

I have done a little research on how much a dealaership makes on used cars... IF a car is bought at auction avg profit margin(pm) at time of sale is 2-4K. A sales man makes ~20-~35% of gross pm, meaning how much the delaership made after ALL expenses are taken out. Usually about 1-2K. So the salesman that get beat up by the customer gets a few hundred dollars per car. Usually their are spiffs for different things (last car sold for the day, quickest to a certain # of cars sold) to keep it competitive for the sales"person". I buy cars time to time from the auctions and talk to alot of the dealership guys.



Just FYI
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#72 Consumer Suggestion

Kelly Blue Book pick the vehicle you want

AUTHOR: Glenn - (U.S.A.)

Go to kbb.com, pick the vehicle you want, with all the options you want, print out what the invoice price is and the MSRP. Go to the kbb trade in section to see what you can expect for your trade in. Never give them the keys to your car unless the deal is already done. Walk out if they piss you off in any way. Bring a real big and intimidating friend (or friends) with you, you know, tough guys who stand around and glare at the salesman. Try this trick, it worked for me at a Quicky lube place. Within the hearing of the manager, I placed ficticious calls to my fictisciou job at the Arizona Attorney Generals Office, Consumer Fraud Division (try and look the part. Don't go there in FUBU clothes with your boxers showing). Hey, if they're gonna play games, so can we.
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#73 Consumer Suggestion

fomer new/used car salesman

AUTHOR: Michael - (U.S.A.)

My brief time working for a dealership was a so-so experience. Endless hours and sacraficed weekends working; dealing with a-hole customers, a-hole managers, etc., etc. But it is all part of working in the customer service business.

The dealership I worked for knew that dealerships have a less than honorable reputation and they did what they could to NOT seem like snakes. It worked most of the time but some customers are never happy no matter what you do.

The only way the sales staff makes money is to sell (obviously). These people are on pure commission only and I think if you were on commission only you would try to tell as much as you can. Does it mean be pushy, demeaning and condoscending? Of course not. But if your livelihood depends on someone else it makes you vulnerable and more aggressive. Sad but true.

Mostly, the sales staff are under TREMENDOUS pressure from managment to sell so this might explain some of their irrational behavior and sour attitude. But it is no excuse and it is not professional to take it out on customers. Nevermind the fact that it kill sales and the dealer gets a bad rep.

But at the same time customers shouldn't expect the red carpet treatment either.
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#74 Consumer Suggestion

Knowledge is Power

AUTHOR: Frank - (U.S.A.)

Stick,



You're quite correct in your assertion that some consumer "advocates," especially the ones whose major source of income is selling books, usually aren't telling the whole story. I recommended Sutton's book because it's well researched, fairly accurate and entertaining to read. There's a lot he doesn't tell you, like the things you mentioned, but what he does tell you is pretty valuable. But, I agree, it isn't complete.



My only intention in recommending it was to supplement what you read here on ripoffreport.com. Sutton might know about the Dark Side of the car business but I seriously doubt that he as ever been royally shafted like some of the people who file reports here (although I suspect he did his share of shafting when he was a saleman, sales manager, and F&I clown). If you read the book closely, you get the impression that he's actually apologizing for or trying to downplay some of the car business' sleazy practices.



Sites like this one are the best source of current information on the scams used by the car business that seem to spring up overnight.
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#75 Consumer Suggestion

Frank many have written books about the auto industry. Now read whatI I write!

AUTHOR: Stick Rip-off Consumer Advocate - (U.S.A.)

Frank many have written books about the auto industry. Now read what I write!



Frank you are right about the book. The only big problem I have is that he does not inform car buyers about all of the scams that are kept away from consumers by the Media.



If an Advocate is out there for the consumer he or she must not be holding anything back. Why not TELL ALL?



Let's all review some Rip-off Reports and rethink our thinking, OK?



How about this report below. Do you think this lady got a fair shake? Do you think the car dealer ever told her that they kicked her trade in the last of 4 car buying contracts they had her sign?



Go to this report and scroll down to the picture of 4 contracts.

www.ripoffreport.com/view.asp?id=52158



Do you think she could find an attorney that would go to bat for her? Hell no. No money in that for a legal "Hot Dog"



We also must ask where was the state AG's office in this matter? We as consumers should be very thankful for this web site. If you want to be informed as a consumer you only have one place that truly tries to inform you in an uncensored way.



Unlike the big ugly media TV stations, Newspapers and Talk radio. They reap the big bucks from the very same people that Rip you OFF! So who is on your side you ask? Ripoffreport.com is!



Now let's move to the next report that we should review.



Let's review this Rip-off Report.

www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff123423.htm

Do you think that a car buyer should have to fight a Rolls Royce dealer do get her $11,000 back in her pocket? I think that She should be able to get it back the same day she asks for it. Where is her state's AG?



Next we might have FRAUD! You be the judge

www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff121573.htm



Why is it that banks are UNWILLING to verify info that is placed on a credit application before approving a car loan? Why is it that many car dealers want their sales people to fill out a car Buyer's credit application? What's up with that?



Maybe so they can change things after the buyer goes home and before the F&I department sends the paper to the bank for approval. How can a car buyer dispute what's on an application if they did not use their hand writing to fill it out? Dealers can say "THAT'S what the buyer told us.



Next Rip-off Report that might need reviewing. Go to this Rip-off report and try to count the number of NEW CARS that do NOT have MSRP's on them.



www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff52158.htm



Where is this state's AG? How can a car dealer break the Monroney law and nobody in this state will do anything about it. What's up with that? The Monroney Law states that all new cars shall have a MSRP on them and place where all would be car buyers can read them.



Want info about the Monroney Law? Go Thank Senator Michael Monroney

www.phs-online.com/window%20sticker%20information.htm



Now let's talk about the pre-approval game. It sure seems to me that many businesses use the term pre-approved so much.

www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff117532.htm



Go read the above report and post your thoughts on it. We as consumers have to ask where are the people in our government that have jobs to protect consumers? I mean we pay them to do a job. Where are our tax dollars going if they are not looking into scams?



Next report that needs a few eyeballs on it.

www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff116134.htm

Who's on Richard's side of the fence in this Rip-off Report?



Have any of you Rip-off Report readers ever heard the term "YANK"? Is the word "YANK" in Sutton's book?

www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff115566.htm



I mean let's face it, When you go out and buy a home you don't get a call from the bank a few weeks down the road telling you to get the hell out of the house! How is it that car dealers can drop or slam you in a car deal and a few weeks down the road Yank you back to their Sled lot and kick you out of what you thought was YOUR CAR!



In many cases the car dealers know they will have big troubles getting many car buyers financed. They use this YANK process to keep the would be buyer off of the market until they have their way with the Buyer's credit by slamming it with a bunch of inquires.



I must ask again where are this country's AG's. What the hell are they doing. Why is it OK for car dealers to do what ever they want and NO AG will do anything about it?



Now we get to the word called arbitration. It's a legal loop hole that helps protect car dealers after they have had their way with you as a consumer. Lawyers some where put this crap in place so car dealers can keep you far away from a court of law if you have a strange feeling in your bottom side about your car deal. Read my posting in the below Rip-off Report.



www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff112604.htm

Why is it that some do not want consumers to have copies of what they sign? F&I people not willing to give car buyers copies of what they sign. Why is it that a car dealer would not want a car buyer to have copies of what they sign? Maybe they are only willing to give a car buyer copies after the dealer gets the car buyer LOCKED into a car deal with a bank.

www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff94549.htm



How can a car dealer sell a car Buyer's trade-in before they get the car buyer approved on the new car loan? I do believe it is against the law to do that. But we then have to ask again who is out there for the car buyer? Car dealer selling car buyers trade in before loan on new car gets approved.

www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff93451.htm



Car dealers making car buyers beg for their down payment back after car deal falls apart! What's up with that? Why can't the car dealer just GIVE THE MONEY BACK?

www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff77724.htm



Can we call this Rip-off Report "Car Buyer's trade in falls in a REPO HOLE"?

www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff89397.htm



Where are these so called book writers Now? Why is it that a reader can't find any of the above situations in any of their books?



Next I have a few words about the word "SALE" for all you sale seekers. Let me give you my opinion of the word "SALE



S.A.L.E.

Suckers Are Loose & Easy

In today's business world the word "Sale" does not means nothing anymore. They only use the word to get your attention and make you THINK you are going to get a good deal. When I see the word "sale" I say whoop EE!



For my final word of the day go to this Rip-off Report and read what I posted on it.

www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff117532.htm



Hey frank go email Sutton and ask why is it that you can't find what I write about in his book! His email address right now is rsutton603@aol



Hey Ralph Nader where do you stand on all of this?



If you like what Ripoffreport.com stands for show some apparition and make a donation! I know for a fact that it will be spent to help you and many others! Use the below URL to make a donation.



www.badbusinessbureau.com/donations.asp
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#76 Consumer Suggestion

Follow the money

AUTHOR: Frank - (U.S.A.)

Car dealers do make money from new unit sales, of course, but it's a relatively small contribution to the dealership's overall profit picture.



The dealer makes a lot more profit from parts and service because of the huge markups on both, typically 100% or more (usually more) compared to less than 10%, average, on new car sales (used car sales have a somewhat higher markup).



But the REAL profits are made from the selling of paper extended warranties (almost always pure profit for the dealer), financing, and insurance. Even Detroit admits this.



(((REDACTED, advertisement)))

CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, advertisement, link or e-mail address from this Report. Rip-off Report has a policy of checking out links before allowing them to post for your protection, CLICK AND READ MORE..
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#77 Consumer Comment

Good way to start the New Year

AUTHOR: Bob - (U.S.A.)

For Dayle,



I needed a good laugh to start the New Year. ha ha ha.



"A dealership does not make money off of car sales. "



Ha ha - still laughing, that is the funniest thing I've heard since Richard Nixon said "I am not a crook."



Happy New Year all- anytime you're down, just think of Dayle's quote, it will cheer you up.



Ha ha ha.



Dealership doesn't make money off sales.



ha ha ha
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#78 Consumer Suggestion

Dealers don't make money off of car sales.

AUTHOR: Dayle - (U.S.A.)

Many people are mistaken here. With my dealership experience, let me break things down for you.



A dealership does not make money off of car sales. Or, at least not enough to make a difference. A dealer makes profit in service and parts. The dealer will do anything it can to give you a good buying experience so you'll come back and spend money on service & parts. That's why so many dealers will drop the price so much.
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#79 Consumer Comment

Response to Jarrod

AUTHOR: A - (U.S.A.)

Jarrod, Your letter was solid. The only thing that gave you away (besides your signature) was your advice to only look at 25k cars, if that is what you can afford. That is playing right into the dealer's hands. I go and look at more expensive cars, and try to get them for what I can afford. That is, after all, the name of the game. I don't look at 40k cars and expect to pay 20k. The dealer is still going to make a profit or it won't sell. Why go in and pay what they are asking?

Thanks to all for your comments - I am planning to try bill heard in tampa
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#80 Consumer Comment

Response to Jarrod

AUTHOR: A - (U.S.A.)

Jarrod, Your letter was solid. The only thing that gave you away (besides your signature) was your advice to only look at 25k cars, if that is what you can afford. That is playing right into the dealer's hands. I go and look at more expensive cars, and try to get them for what I can afford. That is, after all, the name of the game. I don't look at 40k cars and expect to pay 20k. The dealer is still going to make a profit or it won't sell. Why go in and pay what they are asking?

Thanks to all for your comments - I am planning to try bill heard in tampa
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#81 Consumer Comment

Response to Jarrod

AUTHOR: A - (U.S.A.)

Jarrod, Your letter was solid. The only thing that gave you away (besides your signature) was your advice to only look at 25k cars, if that is what you can afford. That is playing right into the dealer's hands. I go and look at more expensive cars, and try to get them for what I can afford. That is, after all, the name of the game. I don't look at 40k cars and expect to pay 20k. The dealer is still going to make a profit or it won't sell. Why go in and pay what they are asking?

Thanks to all for your comments - I am planning to try bill heard in tampa
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#82 Consumer Comment

Response to Jarrod

AUTHOR: A - (U.S.A.)

Jarrod, Your letter was solid. The only thing that gave you away (besides your signature) was your advice to only look at 25k cars, if that is what you can afford. That is playing right into the dealer's hands. I go and look at more expensive cars, and try to get them for what I can afford. That is, after all, the name of the game. I don't look at 40k cars and expect to pay 20k. The dealer is still going to make a profit or it won't sell. Why go in and pay what they are asking?

Thanks to all for your comments - I am planning to try bill heard in tampa
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#83 Consumer Comment

Auto dealer settles with state over ads in a state investigation of deceptive advertising

AUTHOR: Jim - (U.S.A.)

From the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, December

29,2004, "A Columbus based auto dealer with metro

Atlanta locations has agreed to pay a settlement in a state investigation of deceptive advertising

practices." The story goes on to say that four local dealerships owned by Bill Heard Enterprises have agreed to pay $188,000 in a settlement with

the Governors office of Consumer affairs. This is the largest fine ever levied against a dealership.

The fine was so large because this is the second time Heard has been involved in a settlement for deceptive advertising. Apparently they agreed to a similar settlement in Dec. of 2003 for $84,000 and promptly violated in within three weeks. According to the AJC, "Practices cited in the settlement included telling customers thay had been 'pre-approved' for auto loans when they had not, and claims that vehicles were available for sale when they were not...They also involved claims that 'all vehicles came with a limited warranty when they did not and that cars were available in 're-possession' sales, when most of the vehcles were not reposessed..."

I went to buy an advertised truck (stock number in the ad) about 2 years ago and although I found the truck on the lot, in the area where all the new trucks were located, I was told that vehicle had been sold. I went back about a week and a half later and the truck was still there. I used to sell cars years ago but couldn't take the deception and outright lies. It's no wonder car salesmen are viewed in the same light as lawyers

and rank at the bottiom of the list for integrity and honesty.
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#84 Consumer Comment

Do you know if they put the MSRP stickers back on the windows?

AUTHOR: Charles - (U.S.A.)

Did your complaints have any effect? Do you know if they put the MSRP stickers back on the windows? We have a Bill Heard Chevy out here in Las Vegas. Makes me curious to see if they have the stickers on or if they have their own special ones instead.
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#85 Consumer Comment

No Sympathy for Car Salesmen/Women! Take responsibility for yourself!

AUTHOR: Jesse - (Germany)

I will keep this short. The responses above concerning the personal needs of carsalesmen/women are a waste of time. Should prospective buyers of any product shed sympathy on the salesperson, and thus, alter the nature of the buyers intended purchase?

NO!

If you are not making enough money for yourself selling cars, it is not the fault of the buyer. It is YOURS! Take responsibility for yourself! Get another or a different higher paying job. Other people do it. Unless, of course, someone is holding a gun to your head saying,"Sell cars here or else." Unbelievable.
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#86 Consumer Comment

You can' t seal the deal without the feel of the wheel

AUTHOR: Rudy - (U.S.A.)

Jarrod, you just pitched everyone that reads these posts. Of course someone should evaulate how much he or she is willing to spend but if he likes a car that is 25,000 and can get it for 22,000 why shouldn't he? What you wrote was what I used to use to reel my customers. (What is this car worth to you? only $15,000? Ok well this car can't be for you but let me show you some fantastic choices that we have here for around $15,000.) Not until that customer is ready to walk out the door does the salesman say well let me see what I can do and goes to to talk to the sales manager. (sir my boss says we can't get to $15k but the price is $20K sir he said if you are willing to do business right now he is willing to meet you half way. $17.5K.) All the while the dealership can really afford to sell it at $13K. Of course this is only an example but this is how the negotiating works.



For everyone else reading buying a car is simple. Do your homework! Like Jarrod said, figure how much money you can afford to spend and shop in that price range. When you find the vehicle that you like find out the invoice price and fight for that price. If the dealership doesn't want to sell it for that price there is another dealership somewhere that will. And it will be the exact same car, color, features etc. Don't forget to add on the rebates. That's on a new car. On a used car find out what LOAN value is on the car and if you pay 500 to 1k over that price then that is a pretty good deal because more than likely the dealership bought the car for loan value. Maybe even a little less. If the dealership is not willing to sell for that price then find another car that you like somewhere else and fight for that price. Don't forget that everything they try and sell you in finance is marked up also and can be negotiated including your interest rate, gap, alarms, etc. Just be aware that every price can come down. At the end of the process the dealership will probably be ready for you just to go but atleast you will know that you got a good deal.



There's a saying You can't seal the deal without the feel of the wheel. This means dealerships are going to try and sell you on the car first and then on the price. If you are in love with the car first then selling you the price is much easier. This is essentially what Jarrod just described.
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#87 Consumer Comment

How to buy a car, not get ripped off and be happy.

AUTHOR: Jarrod - (U.S.A.)

I have been in the automotive industry for six years now and love the business. I started out on the "line" selling cars. After being promoted to assistant manager then manager and now to finance director i have seen every angle in the automotive dealership.



What people don't realize is that a dealership is not a non-profit organization but a for profit company. You WILL pay the dealership some sort of profit if you are going to buy a car. Realize also that you will pay a profit on everything you buy for the rest of your life. Buying a car is very simple.



Here's how:

1. Determine how your going to buy the car. If your going to buy a car cash look at how much you are willing to spend. If your going to be financing look at how much down payment you have and what you can afford on a monthly basis. Then use any payment calculator available on the internet and see how much car you can buy. Factor in tax, license, and interest charges.



2. Once you know how much car you can afford look at what cars fall into that price range and pick the models you want. If you have 25k to spend don't look at 30k dollar cars thinking you can get it for 25k.



3. Drive the cars and decide which one you want.



4. Decide what that car is worth to YOU. People pay three thousand dollars over MSRP for hard to find cars like the Honda S2000 etc. because the car is worth that to them. These people are happy when they buy this type of car.



5. Go make the offer of what the car is worth to YOU. If they don't accept it move on. Do your research and make sure your not offering them rediculous numbers before making your offer.

6. If your financing the vehicle make sure your happy with the interest rate. If you have bad credit you will not get a prime rate and realize this.....



7. Only buy warranties, gap, alarms etc. if the provided price is worth the product or service you are buying.



8. Buy the car, go home, smile and refer friends to the dealership you bought it from.



Conclusion,

In the end it doesn't matter if someone else got a better deal or if the dealer made a big profit. All that matters is you pick the best car for you and the money you are spending for the car is worth it. Trust me dealers would love it if MSRP wasn't the suggested price, but the price everyone paid because we'd all be rich. If you don't like negotiating then pay sticker price. After all the manufacturer suggests that price because they believe their vehicles are worth it. Who are we to tell them they're not?



Respected and professional salesperson
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#88 Consumer Comment

Do they take advantage of uninformed buyers? Absolutely! That is their job. Is it right? No, but it will continue to happen until all buyers decide to do their homework.

AUTHOR: Rudy - (U.S.A.)

Robert, obviously you are not as informed as you think because fair market value is sticker price. If that's what you're satisfied paying then you are making whoever you are buying from very happy. If you really want a good deal on a used car you need to look for loan value because this is what a dealership is usually willing to pay for a car and this is what banks base their loans on. Depending on the age of the vehicle and mileage a bank will loan around 125%. I know you said you wouldn't go to another dealership but just so you know if a dealership is insisting on money down there are one of two things going on. 1. Your credit isn't that great. 2. The sale price is higher than that 125% so they need to cover the rest with cash. Robert, don't be fooled with market value, you more than likely could have gotten a much better deal and yes even from a dealership if you did your homework. I don't know how bright it is to buy a car over the internet that someone has never seen and doesn't have a chance to let their own mechanic look at it before a purchase. Atleast you can do that at a dealership.



If you are buying a new car ask for invoice price. The salesman will fight you but eventually you can always get this price. Don't let them fool you into believing that the dealership won't make money because the dealership makes a percentage of every vehicle even if sold at invoice. INVOICE IS NOT WHAT THE DEALERSHIP PAYS FOR THE VEHICLES!



Let me give you an example, a 2003 used chevy silverado will be purchased by a dealership for around 18,000 depending on the mileage. A brand new silverado has a sticker of 28,000. Big difference until you take off the markup which gets to invoice which would be 25,000. Then take off the rebates which can be up to 4,500. so that gets you to $20,500. Now you are at a $2,500 difference. Now factor in financing. With outstanding credit you can typically get 5 or 6% on a used car. On a new car you can get as low as 1%. With those few percentage points the price of the two vehicles end up being around the same. So what would you rather have a new or a used for the same price?



Robert, the moral of the story is do your homework before you run off and buy another car at fair market value that you have never seen before except on the internet. Also the misconception that buying one or two years old saves you thousands is absolutely not true.



Now in defense of car salesmen their work is hard. six days a week twelve hours a day is rough on anyone. It is an incredibly stressful job. Do they take advantage of uninformed buyers? Absolutely! That is their job. Is it right? No, but it will continue to happen until all buyers decide to do their homework. The sad fact of it is that the people with bad credit are typically the ones taken advantage of because they are desperate just to get a car so they rarely care about the price.
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#89 Consumer Comment

Do they take advantage of uninformed buyers? Absolutely! That is their job. Is it right? No, but it will continue to happen until all buyers decide to do their homework.

AUTHOR: Rudy - (U.S.A.)

Robert, obviously you are not as informed as you think because fair market value is sticker price. If that's what you're satisfied paying then you are making whoever you are buying from very happy. If you really want a good deal on a used car you need to look for loan value because this is what a dealership is usually willing to pay for a car and this is what banks base their loans on. Depending on the age of the vehicle and mileage a bank will loan around 125%. I know you said you wouldn't go to another dealership but just so you know if a dealership is insisting on money down there are one of two things going on. 1. Your credit isn't that great. 2. The sale price is higher than that 125% so they need to cover the rest with cash. Robert, don't be fooled with market value, you more than likely could have gotten a much better deal and yes even from a dealership if you did your homework. I don't know how bright it is to buy a car over the internet that someone has never seen and doesn't have a chance to let their own mechanic look at it before a purchase. Atleast you can do that at a dealership.



If you are buying a new car ask for invoice price. The salesman will fight you but eventually you can always get this price. Don't let them fool you into believing that the dealership won't make money because the dealership makes a percentage of every vehicle even if sold at invoice. INVOICE IS NOT WHAT THE DEALERSHIP PAYS FOR THE VEHICLES!



Let me give you an example, a 2003 used chevy silverado will be purchased by a dealership for around 18,000 depending on the mileage. A brand new silverado has a sticker of 28,000. Big difference until you take off the markup which gets to invoice which would be 25,000. Then take off the rebates which can be up to 4,500. so that gets you to $20,500. Now you are at a $2,500 difference. Now factor in financing. With outstanding credit you can typically get 5 or 6% on a used car. On a new car you can get as low as 1%. With those few percentage points the price of the two vehicles end up being around the same. So what would you rather have a new or a used for the same price?



Robert, the moral of the story is do your homework before you run off and buy another car at fair market value that you have never seen before except on the internet. Also the misconception that buying one or two years old saves you thousands is absolutely not true.



Now in defense of car salesmen their work is hard. six days a week twelve hours a day is rough on anyone. It is an incredibly stressful job. Do they take advantage of uninformed buyers? Absolutely! That is their job. Is it right? No, but it will continue to happen until all buyers decide to do their homework. The sad fact of it is that the people with bad credit are typically the ones taken advantage of because they are desperate just to get a car so they rarely care about the price.
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#90 Consumer Comment

Do they take advantage of uninformed buyers? Absolutely! That is their job. Is it right? No, but it will continue to happen until all buyers decide to do their homework.

AUTHOR: Rudy - (U.S.A.)

Robert, obviously you are not as informed as you think because fair market value is sticker price. If that's what you're satisfied paying then you are making whoever you are buying from very happy. If you really want a good deal on a used car you need to look for loan value because this is what a dealership is usually willing to pay for a car and this is what banks base their loans on. Depending on the age of the vehicle and mileage a bank will loan around 125%. I know you said you wouldn't go to another dealership but just so you know if a dealership is insisting on money down there are one of two things going on. 1. Your credit isn't that great. 2. The sale price is higher than that 125% so they need to cover the rest with cash. Robert, don't be fooled with market value, you more than likely could have gotten a much better deal and yes even from a dealership if you did your homework. I don't know how bright it is to buy a car over the internet that someone has never seen and doesn't have a chance to let their own mechanic look at it before a purchase. Atleast you can do that at a dealership.



If you are buying a new car ask for invoice price. The salesman will fight you but eventually you can always get this price. Don't let them fool you into believing that the dealership won't make money because the dealership makes a percentage of every vehicle even if sold at invoice. INVOICE IS NOT WHAT THE DEALERSHIP PAYS FOR THE VEHICLES!



Let me give you an example, a 2003 used chevy silverado will be purchased by a dealership for around 18,000 depending on the mileage. A brand new silverado has a sticker of 28,000. Big difference until you take off the markup which gets to invoice which would be 25,000. Then take off the rebates which can be up to 4,500. so that gets you to $20,500. Now you are at a $2,500 difference. Now factor in financing. With outstanding credit you can typically get 5 or 6% on a used car. On a new car you can get as low as 1%. With those few percentage points the price of the two vehicles end up being around the same. So what would you rather have a new or a used for the same price?



Robert, the moral of the story is do your homework before you run off and buy another car at fair market value that you have never seen before except on the internet. Also the misconception that buying one or two years old saves you thousands is absolutely not true.



Now in defense of car salesmen their work is hard. six days a week twelve hours a day is rough on anyone. It is an incredibly stressful job. Do they take advantage of uninformed buyers? Absolutely! That is their job. Is it right? No, but it will continue to happen until all buyers decide to do their homework. The sad fact of it is that the people with bad credit are typically the ones taken advantage of because they are desperate just to get a car so they rarely care about the price.
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#91 Consumer Comment

Auto Dealer's responses

AUTHOR: Robert - (U.S.A.)

Well you see the typical response from car salesman, grousing about how hard their job is...



well, after getting ripped off on my last car, I thought about all these issues.



Just bought a car today....at auction, on e-bay.



I'm not going to sit around and fight unscrupulous car dealers, and especially salespeople who have absolutely convinced themselves its OK to take 6,000 from someone, even if the markup is usually 3,000 (as an example). To them, its all fair....they hate informed consumers, but to be honest, they must hate uninformed consumers even more, cause its the uninformed they are taking so much money from.



To the car salesman out there...I don't need you to be my friend, and, you'll never got another sale from me again...its all auction, let the market price prevail....



now go back to work, sales boy
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#92 Consumer Comment

I see the name of the dealer has changed but nothing else

AUTHOR: Gordon Grimes - (U.S.A.)

It would appear that nothing to do with General Motors dealerships has changed over the years. I remember the dealship via the photo's in the post. My memory is a bit old as I left Phoenix 11 years ago, just before moving I attempted to purchase a vehicle from this very same location which then had another name. I was driving a pristine 1974 Vette and was looking for a second cheaper ride for work. I liked the looks of the S-10 small trucks so I went to look at one.



Several items happened the moment I pulled on the lot: I was surrounded by dealship personnel, they attempted to take my Vette for a checkup and evaluation to see how much I would receive as trade-in and a teenager (valet) wanted my keys to take my car out of my sight. It took considerable effort and time to convince these people the Vette was not for sale and they needed to keep their hands off! I was finally allowed to park my own car....



I was then ushered inside, had my keys and my driver's licence taken from me for safekeeping while I enjoyed my shipping expierence. I explained too "my" salesman that I was looking for a low buck S-10 truck with a V-6, manual trans and A/C for a daily driver. I made it clear that I already owned the Vette (which he had seen) plus a very heavly modified GMC 1/2 ton truck which served as a serious off-road vehicle and what I needed was an economical truck for daily drive. Given that info I was promptly shown the high end small Blazer which I had no want or desire to own. I said I needed a truck, so I was then shown only the most fully optioned S-10's on the lot. NOTE: none of the vehicles on the lot had MSRP stickers anywhere on the vehicle. Buyer Beware? This banter continued for about an hour before I finally snapped that they had no intention of selling me a cheap truck so I decided it was time to pass. I told "my" salesman I was tired of talking and now had no intention of buying a vehicle from them and that I would now be leaving. I asked for my keys and licence back so I could go, not it get better.



Instead of getting my keys and licence he goes and get the "Sales Manager" whom proceeds to continue trying to sell me a truck for another 45 minutes. I am not out of patience and asked again for my keys and licence so I can go. Instead I get the "Sales Manager's Boss" so I now have 3 people trying too pressure me into buying a truck. I have not been at the dealer's for almost 3 hours and have been verbally abused, asked to sign contracts and have been unable to obtain my own keys and licence. The salesman now tells me they have "lost" my keys and licence and it will take some time to find.



I have not reached saturation and walk out into the sales area now being trailed by these three sales people, I am not in the middle of the showroom and starting to get very loud about the fact they cannot find my keys and licence. I'm told by them to get back into the office and calm down or they will call the police, I said fine lets talk to the cops since I cannot leave in my own car. I ask to use the phone so I can call them if that is what they desire. All of a sudden my keys and licence appear and I am asked to leave their dealership at once!!! I try and comply but find a new problem. My Vette is not surrounded by new dealer vehicles which they not cannot find the keys too!!! These guys start making jokes about how I should buy a new truck or I might just have to walk home tonight since they won't be able to find any keys till the next day. I am now as you can imagine totally off my nut, and ready to start causing big problems.



Anyway as luck would have it a couple of my co-workers showed back up at the lot trying to figure out what was taking me so long as we should be having a beer long ago. Talking with me and seeing my problems one stayed to talk with me and the other went off to get help, as luck would have it he knows a couple of Scottsdale's finest who showed up within 20 minutes. Once they showed up everything became much more friendly and I was able to leave but, not invited to return and I was also "banned"



As an aside this same dealership was found to be selling totaled vehicles that have been repaired. These were being offered to the public as lease or dealer demo cars. They were really cars which had been so badly damaged as to be written off by insurance companies. I think this is when the dealer name was changed.



If you think the BBB or General Motors will help you think again. Neither will do anything to prevent these types of dealerships from continuing in business. The only way to fix this situation so shop elsewhere and do not buy their supplier's brand of products. I also keep telling other's of the problems and never, never, never let up.



It's been a long time since that happened but it appears nothing has changed in Scottsdale. I long ago relocated to Albuquerque, NM and have been through many cars/trucks since. Please note however that besides the Vette I have not driven a single Chevy product since. I now drive a Custom Ford F350 purchased from a quality dealership (Don Chalmers) of Albuquerque. In addition, I drive an expensive BMW M3 instead of a new Vette. If enough people do the same thing and quit buying from poor dealerships the message will finally get through.



I got through engineering college (ASU) in Phoenix by working as a mechanic. I'm now a senior electrical engineer with a large firm, people know I still fix cars from time to time and ask for advice on what they should buy. I never recommend a Chevy over the years I figure I've cost them the purchase of at least 50 vehicles; that does give me some satification.



Regards,
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#93 Consumer Comment

Just do your homework first...

AUTHOR: Don - (U.S.A.)

I have read most of these responses here today and everyone has good points. But it comes down to the plain and simple solution of checking with the BBB prior to buying a car or any high ticket item. Most people check with the BBB prior to buying a pool, roof, etc., so why wouldn't you do the same prior to spending such a large sum of money prior to buying a new or used car? I have a chevy dealer that I buy a new car from every 3-4 months for the past several years. I get a good deal, never been taken advantage of, and always been treated with respect. This is not because I now buy so many cars, this is how I was treated even the first time I walked into the dealership. But I had done my home work first and foremost prior to going to the dealership and I only deal with the sales manager one to one, since the manager is the one who will okay the deal anyway. So people, DO YOU HOMEWORK FIRST and you should have no problems............
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#94 Consumer Comment

Many of you are correct...

AUTHOR: Kirk - (U.S.A.)

I have read all the comments here about Bill Heard Chevrolet and many of you are right...some are full of it...As we all know, for a business to survive, they must make a profit. Back in the 80's when the imports dominated car sales, the domestic manufacturers were forced to come up with dealer incentives for their dealers to have any chance of selling cars and surviving in the wake of the import car flood.



They started offering various "incentives" to their dealers in the way of discounts. A manufacturer would give a certain amount off one car and a certain amount off another that the dealer could pass on the savings to thier customers.



Then, the 3 big automakers rolled out their own finance companies to aid dealers with financing and offered incentives with that as well.



Banks caught on and started giving "rebates" to the dealers for "selling" thier customers loans to them. Have you ever heard the term "kickbacks"? This is just what it is.



In the beginning, dealers would give and few still do, give you their "factory to dealer incentives". The manufacturer may also give you (the consumer) a rebate but that rebate is usually built into the price anyway so it's not really "free money" as it is made to appear.



If you allow the dealer to finance you, chances are, especially if you have less than perfect credit, they will sell your contract to a bank or finance company that actually pays them a small percentage of the contract price. Chances are, the dealer will increase the percentage rate by whatever the bank allows them to and then rebates the actual difference back to the dealer.



Now, I'm not saying that is deceptive, it is business between the bank/finance company and the dealer at the consumers expense. Best to get your financing BEFORE you step foot onto a dealership. That dealer markup sticker...if you find yourself on the lot of a dealer that practices this....leave.



Find a dealer that is willing to sell to you at (or preferly) below sticker. Market adjustment; etc. is BULL PUCKY!

Added Dealer Options: Unless you really want those options...don't pay for them. Find another vehicle that doesn't have them. If you can't. Negotiate! It's all "big" profit for the dealer. How do I know all this you ask?



Well, my father was part owner in a car dealership when I was a teenager and learned all this from him and his business partner. These were tactics their compeditors were using. They had the philosophy that if you treat every customer with the utmost care and respect; give them a fair deal and they will not only be back in 3, 4 or 5 years but they will refer countless business to you.



In many cases there were 2 or 3 generations from the same family that bought from my fathers dealership. My father never marked up cars or put "worthless dealer options" (like undercoating in California)on them then charged an arm and a leg for it.



He sold at or below sticker and sold thousands of vehicles over a 20 year period. He had sales and service people with him for 15+ years and made his money on volume...although he or his partner never became millionaires, they made a comfortable living and provided a comfortable living to the people that worked for him while giving their customers a fair deal.



So, with all the resources and the internet available to everyone....RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH what you plan on purchasing, get your financing in order BEFORE you go and stick to your plan. If one dealer won't make you a fair deal there are many more to choose from that will. Don't fall in love with the first car you see or sit in' that is a recipe for disaster.



There are plenty of them like it out there. Don't get Ripped Off! A fair deal is all you can ask for! If it doesn't feel right...WALK!



The best way to buy a car today is via the internet as most dealerships have internet sales. Check the manufacturers website for the model you are interested in, price it out with the options you want via their website (most have this capability). Good luck!
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#95 Consumer Comment

Go to small claims court

AUTHOR: Bob - (U.S.A.)

You do NOT need a lawyer. Check with your county or city's small claims court. Many will take cases where you present the evidence - no lawyer involved. Then see if you can get your engine replaced or paid for by the dealership who did the shoddy work.
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#96 Consumer Comment

Fullerton Ford's Fault

AUTHOR: David - (U.S.A.)

Fullerton Ford performed an oil change to my new 2002 Ford Windstar and as a result of their rushing a job to get out of work because it had stopped snowing a hour earlier, my engine seized.



When I tried to get them to even so much as take a look at it, they wouldn't. They wouldn't have it towed to their dealership nor would they pay for their obvious mistake. I don't have enough money to take them to court and because of the amount involved, I would need a lawyer to go to court for me.



Since I needed my vehicle to get to work and home, I HAD to take it to another dealership of which it costed me $5,000+ for a brand new engine.
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#97 Consumer Comment

Fullerton Ford's Fault

AUTHOR: David - (U.S.A.)

Fullerton Ford performed an oil change to my new 2002 Ford Windstar and as a result of their rushing a job to get out of work because it had stopped snowing a hour earlier, my engine seized.



When I tried to get them to even so much as take a look at it, they wouldn't. They wouldn't have it towed to their dealership nor would they pay for their obvious mistake. I don't have enough money to take them to court and because of the amount involved, I would need a lawyer to go to court for me.



Since I needed my vehicle to get to work and home, I HAD to take it to another dealership of which it costed me $5,000+ for a brand new engine.
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#98 Consumer Comment

Fullerton Ford's Fault

AUTHOR: David - (U.S.A.)

Fullerton Ford performed an oil change to my new 2002 Ford Windstar and as a result of their rushing a job to get out of work because it had stopped snowing a hour earlier, my engine seized.



When I tried to get them to even so much as take a look at it, they wouldn't. They wouldn't have it towed to their dealership nor would they pay for their obvious mistake. I don't have enough money to take them to court and because of the amount involved, I would need a lawyer to go to court for me.



Since I needed my vehicle to get to work and home, I HAD to take it to another dealership of which it costed me $5,000+ for a brand new engine.
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#99 Consumer Comment

Melissa, I like you

AUTHOR: Rudy - (U.S.A.)

Melissa, you are right in everything you have stated. No you did not state what I have put but it does certainly come off that way. You are right in that it is sad that your husband has had to leave the business but like everything else the business has evolved and it is a world of minnies now. Is this why I left? No. I have always worked in theme parks and this is what I love. I am the operations manager for a well known park here and this is what I love. I sold cars to hold me over between jobs and you are right it is not fast money but if someone busts their butt the money is definetly there. I too am sorry it took me a year to get out!
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#100 Consumer Comment

Rudy,,you are not reading right

AUTHOR: Melissa - (U.S.A.)

LOL-yeah, i'm telling the consumers to lay back and take whatever the salesman hands to them. Here is what I said, "I just wanted to point out that some customer's out there expect way too much, and then if you gave them the world it still wouldn't be enough." And, no, car sales is not rocket science but I have seen a lot of salesmen and saleswomen come and go because they thought it was going to be very easy and they could make quick money, WRONG!I'm saying that it is one of the few industries where you can bargain like this, besides flea markets, and it has a bad reputation, which is understandable. Yes, I know about big gross on cars and you are right, they are rare. Also, I did admit that my husband has taken advantage of customers, did he feel bad, yes, but he is the breadwinner in our family so he did what he had to do. Just like corporate america scams the consumers, just in a slightly different manner. I never stated to trust salesmen also, but I can tell that you were one since you like to put words into peoples mouths. You have pretty much taken everything I have said and twisted it. I admitted that I was taught the in's and out's on how they can lower deals, etc...I'm not denying anything. I'm glad you were in the industry a year, sorry it took so long to get out.
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#101 Consumer Comment

Melissa have you read your own postings?

AUTHOR: Rudy - (U.S.A.)

So then what is your message hear? In your first posting you were saying poor husband he had to leave the busness because it isn't the same and they aren't making the money they used to. Now let's analize that. In the last 20 years the internet has exploded and now if you don't know how to do what we are doing now on these computers you are behind your times. This one tool at the other end of my finger tips is what has impowered the consumer in the auto industry. They can find out what that vehicle really is worth and they can go to a dealership well informed and educated on the purchase they desire to make. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Does it suck for the salesmen? Sure it does because they can't take advantage of everyone anymore. In your first posting you basically said consumers stop asking for the world and take what the salesman tells you the vehicle is worth! That is a true salesman speaking.



As for the 0 down guy what is wrong with that? If his credit supported him giving 0 down then he has every right to ask for it. Same payment? You know your husband could've probably gotten there. What I see in this situation is an old school salesman refusing to let go of his commission. Take the minnie! If you don't like minnies get out of the industry because that's all that's left are minnies! Oh wait he did get out of the industry, good for him.

On the other hand if the car was used your husband was pushing for the down payment because depending on the age of the vehicle and specs of it the bank will only finance 125% of the loan value of the vehicle. Dealerships usually buy used at or below loan so lets do the math.

20k loan value vehicle can be financed at 25k. 5k mark up. Should a consumer have to pay 5k mark up? I wouldn't want to pay that much. And don't tell me these grosses don't exist because I grossed 8k on one vehicle. Is it rare? of course it is. Am I proud of it sort of yes because that was my month right there in that one deal. Now let's stop for a second you are calling me a hypocrite right now. No I'm not because unlike you I do recognize that this is taking advantage of someone. Am I proud of that part? Of course not. The reason I responded to your posting is because you were making a plea for the consumers of this country to stop doing their homework and start trusting the salesmen. That absolutely should not happen.



I was only in the business for one year your husband was in it for 20. In my one year I learned how to sell a car how to work the deals from the managers desk I learned how to appraise used vehicles and I learned what goes on in the finance office. I even learned what goes on in payables where they find any little thing to take away some of the gross to pay the salesman less and put more in the pocket of the dealership. Let's not kid ourselves car sales is not rocket science and if you have half a brain you can learn the business. One year is plenty of time to know what is going on.
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#102 Consumer Comment

Rudy... Here's some advice for any one buying a car

AUTHOR: Melissa - (U.S.A.)

I sense your sarcasm and it makes me laugh very hard. I never stated my husband was perfect, did he take advantage of clients, at times yes, did I like, when I saw those paychecks I did, but you stated that you only worked in the industry for a year, he's been in it over 20 yrs. There's a lot more to know than just one years worth. He's worked in every angle of the buisiness. As far as the story with the customer who called him a racial slur, he didn't want to put a down payment down. There's a difference there, he wanted no money down, not even for tags, etc, but wanted the same payment. This was with Toyota not Chevy. Also, for consumers, remember, you get what you pay for. Don't be too shocked when those Kia and Dodges start breaking down so soon, there is a reason that they have really good warranties. Just something to think about. If you want quality, you have to pay for it. That goes with a lot of things in life, not just the auto industry. Also, these dealerships that I am hearing about, I've heard some stories but not like this. There is one dealership though in the area that I live that are true crooks also. I worked there and they lie, cheat and steal, more than normal for this industry, every which way they can and also treat their employees like crap. Here's some advice for any one buying a car also, if you hear the word Baby Seal mentioned around you, run! They are really getting over on you then. Yes, Rudy, 20 yrs in the buisiness, has my husband taken advantage of customers, yes, that's just the nature of the buisiness, but there are other industries that work the same way, they just aren't exposed like the auto industry is.
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#103 Consumer Comment

Response to Rudy

AUTHOR: Melissa - (U.S.A.)

Rudy,



First, the expenses that I am talking about, came out of our own pocket,yes, dealerships have soda's and chips, I know that but the things at my husband's desk and sending customers to dinner were on us. I'm not saying, poor salesmen, everyone is sooo mean to them boo hoo, I'm just trying to point out that not all customers know exactly what they (the salesmen) have to go through on a day to day basis and basically, some expect way too much. Just because the dealership brings in the money doesn't alway's mean that the salesman make the money also. I do know about mini deals,($50 was a mini deal where my husband worked.) and the draw process. For those of you who don't know what a draw means in the auto industry, let me explain. If a salesman doesn't sell anything for a week they still by law have to have a paycheck, the dealership will give them $250.00, tax that (which with everything my husband took out for 401K etc..) would come to 120.00 for the week. Now, when they finally make a decent paycheck or they might wait until the end of the month for their bonus, if they have had 1 draw or 3-4 draws, the dealership takes that money back. The $250.00 per each draw. I understand the auto industry is shady but every industry is shady. Look at all the electronic stores out there. It is almost the same thing. The auto industry just has been around so long and they do have a bad reputation and some are very crooked. I know one dealership where I am from that I wouldn't let my worst enemy buy a car from. They are horrible, treat their employees horrible and keep getting busted by the FBI. I do know about "ignorant" customers also, did I like when he got them, to be quite honest yes, because I knew it meant a nice paycheck. There aren't that many "ignorant" customers out there these days. My husband has been selling cars for over 20 years and has seen a lot of changes over the years. You can't lie that much anymore since there is so much information on the internet, even with Dealer kick backs, etc...I just wanted to point out that some customer's out there expect way too much, and then if you gave them the world it still wouldn't be enough.
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#104 Consumer Comment

I'm sorry your husband was called names

AUTHOR: Rudy - (U.S.A.)

It's unfortunate that a racial slur was used against your husband and that customer was out of line but on the same hand if the lease was up on the four year old vehicle then this means the customer did not owe any money on it. If the new vehicle was similar in price and down payment was the same there is no reason why the customer couldn't have gotten the same payment. As far as inflation goes vehicles have not gone up much in four years unless it is a new model. Look at Chevy silverados. With rebates and discounts you can get an extended cab for 21000. Four years ago the trucks were the same if not higher. A two year old used silverado will be sold at 20000. Are you telling me the mark up isn't significant to were every customer should be concerned?



By the way in the car business if a salesman knocks someone's head off or rapes them or eats them alive whatever you want to call it salesmen gloat and celebrate. I'm sure your husband took part in this when he sold cars. If he "hit a homerun" on someone I'm sure he was very proud of himself. After working in the industry for a year I now know how it works and have gained a wealth full of knowledge and I know that a salesman will take advantage of you every chance he get's. Including your husband. You said it in your first response. Your husband quit because he wasn't making money like salesmen used to. Why is that? Because buyers are now more informed and are smarter when entering a dealership. Your husband quit because he making to many mini's and not enough home run's. I'm sorry he couldn't take advantage of more people the way he would've liked to.
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#105 Consumer Suggestion

They took it upon themselves to modified a car Buyer's credit application!

AUTHOR: Stick Rip Off Consumer Advocate - (U.S.A.)

Rudy,Bob, Melissa, Bill Now I will put my 2 cents in. First we need to get the word out of all of the deceptive ways that car dealers have. I am right now involved in a law suit with a local Kia dealer. They took it upon themselves to modify a car Buyer's credit application so the bank would approve the car loan. They did this behind the car buyer's back.



I explained to the Victim/car buyer what they did to him and now he might get the car for FREE after all is said and done.



Go read this Report:

Dealer breaking the "Monroney law"

www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff38266.htm



Go read this Rip Off Report. Car dealer had car buyer sign 4 contracts, they kicked the Buyer's trade on the last contract and NEVER TOLD her. Look at the last pic of the 4 contracts they had her sign. I have all 4 of them in my files.



www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff52158.htm



Go read this car Buyer's Rip Off Report.

www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff102374.htm



Go read what this RV buyer is going through. Read his Rip Off Report. Look at all of the pic's he has posted.



www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff108736.htm



The Problem is that our government does not have enough AG's that are willing to bend the deceptive car dealers over and give it to them GOOD for their dirty actions.



We also have to blame the media, being Talk Radio, Newspapers and your "On your side" programs at local TV stations. They all love the big advertising money they get from the car dealers. They do NOT want to bite the big hands that feed them.



If you want to take a challenge and want me to prove it to you post a request for a challenge to take my test.



That being said, Rip Off Report is a very good thing for consumers. Consumers get to read up on current scams. We must also not forget about the credit industry. Many consumers are having their clocks cleaned because the credit industry does not tell you everything about how it all works so big fat bankers and car dealers any credit card companies can bend the consumer over and whack them with higher interest rates.



It's all about how much of your money can they take, NOT MAKE!



It is my labor of love to help just as the Editor here at ripoffreport.com to be there for YOU THE CONSUMER!
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#106 Consumer Comment

Response to salesman's wife

AUTHOR: Rudy - (U.S.A.)

In an industry built on negotiation the consumer has every right to look for the best deal. This means trying to get the lowest price possible. Salesman, by the way, do not go hungry. Work hours are long and stressful but if they aren't making commission they are atleast making minimum wage. Salesmen at most dealerships also get what is called a "mini" on a car sold at invoice or sometimes even lower. What this means is that regardless the selling price the salesman will make money on the sale. Most dealerships also have a bonus structure that supports selling several vehicles so if the salesman sells say six vehicles he or she will get a one thousand dollar bonus. This is true at most dealerships. To say that salesman struggle to survive this can only be true if his lifestyle is above his means.



You brought up the point about only paying what the dealership payed for the vehicle. I'm sure this is news to you but invoice is NOT what the dealership payed for the vehicle. The dealership will always make a percentage of each vehicle it sells. If a dealership makes only 3% on a $20,000 vehicle that would be $600. Multiply that by 300 vehicles and that is $180,000. This does not include all of the profit the dealership makes on financing, selling warranties and many other side costs. Not to mention the vehicles that are sold higher than invoice and vehicles that cost 40, 50 ,or 60 thousand dollars.



I have lived in the shoes of a carsalesman and like I said the hours are long and stressful but the money can be very good. You are basically trying to say poor salesmen leave them alone and don't hassle them about price. Give me a break! If that were the case everyone would be taken advantage of. As a salesman, honestly, it was nice to get an ignorant customer because that is more money in the salesman's pocket but a well informed buyer worked just as well because it was another sell and a little more money for the month.



As for the customer that wanted everything payed for he probably realized that if he couldn't get the bottom line lowered then he might as well get discounts in some form. This does not come out of the salesman's pocket. If it did at your dealership I strongly recommend that you don't work there anymore. Many dealerships will offer lunch drinks or whatever to keep the customer in the building. This does not come out of the salesman's pocket. You mentioned that these expenses "came out of our pockets" do you mean your families or the dealerships? If you meant the dealerships then what is wrong with them doing these things? That is actually called good customer service.
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#107 Consumer Comment

Thanks Bob....

AUTHOR: Melissa - (U.S.A.)

Hello Bob,



I appreciate your response on this issue and understand that the auto industry has a very bad reputation. Like I said, I was taught on the in's and out's of the buisiness but there are also other industries that are very competitive also but the auto industry has had it's reputation for so long that consumer's will slam them no matter what. I just wish that someone who complains would have switched places with my husband for one day to see what really goes on and what they have to deal with on their end also. I know there is a lot of hassle with the customers when buying a vehicle. It's not a fun proccess but being on my end, I just wanted to point out that I have seen some customers expect way too much. My husband had one customer who was coming off a 4 yr. lease, wanted the same car in a newer model, with no money down and wanted to pay the same price as the 4 year old car. When my husband tried to explain about inflation, etc. he called my husband a F****** Dego (He's all italian) and started to insult him some more. In my eyes, the customer is not alway's right and that was one of the few times at that dealership where my husband was working that they asked a customer to leave. But, yes, we were very customer oriented and liked to take care of the customer so that they would remember.
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#108 Consumer Comment

Thanks Bob....

AUTHOR: Melissa - (U.S.A.)

Hello Bob,



I appreciate your response on this issue and understand that the auto industry has a very bad reputation. Like I said, I was taught on the in's and out's of the buisiness but there are also other industries that are very competitive also but the auto industry has had it's reputation for so long that consumer's will slam them no matter what. I just wish that someone who complains would have switched places with my husband for one day to see what really goes on and what they have to deal with on their end also. I know there is a lot of hassle with the customers when buying a vehicle. It's not a fun proccess but being on my end, I just wanted to point out that I have seen some customers expect way too much. My husband had one customer who was coming off a 4 yr. lease, wanted the same car in a newer model, with no money down and wanted to pay the same price as the 4 year old car. When my husband tried to explain about inflation, etc. he called my husband a F****** Dego (He's all italian) and started to insult him some more. In my eyes, the customer is not alway's right and that was one of the few times at that dealership where my husband was working that they asked a customer to leave. But, yes, we were very customer oriented and liked to take care of the customer so that they would remember.
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#109 Consumer Comment

Thanks Bob....

AUTHOR: Melissa - (U.S.A.)

Hello Bob,



I appreciate your response on this issue and understand that the auto industry has a very bad reputation. Like I said, I was taught on the in's and out's of the buisiness but there are also other industries that are very competitive also but the auto industry has had it's reputation for so long that consumer's will slam them no matter what. I just wish that someone who complains would have switched places with my husband for one day to see what really goes on and what they have to deal with on their end also. I know there is a lot of hassle with the customers when buying a vehicle. It's not a fun proccess but being on my end, I just wanted to point out that I have seen some customers expect way too much. My husband had one customer who was coming off a 4 yr. lease, wanted the same car in a newer model, with no money down and wanted to pay the same price as the 4 year old car. When my husband tried to explain about inflation, etc. he called my husband a F****** Dego (He's all italian) and started to insult him some more. In my eyes, the customer is not alway's right and that was one of the few times at that dealership where my husband was working that they asked a customer to leave. But, yes, we were very customer oriented and liked to take care of the customer so that they would remember.
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#110 Consumer Comment

Thanks Bob....

AUTHOR: Melissa - (U.S.A.)

Hello Bob,



I appreciate your response on this issue and understand that the auto industry has a very bad reputation. Like I said, I was taught on the in's and out's of the buisiness but there are also other industries that are very competitive also but the auto industry has had it's reputation for so long that consumer's will slam them no matter what. I just wish that someone who complains would have switched places with my husband for one day to see what really goes on and what they have to deal with on their end also. I know there is a lot of hassle with the customers when buying a vehicle. It's not a fun proccess but being on my end, I just wanted to point out that I have seen some customers expect way too much. My husband had one customer who was coming off a 4 yr. lease, wanted the same car in a newer model, with no money down and wanted to pay the same price as the 4 year old car. When my husband tried to explain about inflation, etc. he called my husband a F****** Dego (He's all italian) and started to insult him some more. In my eyes, the customer is not alway's right and that was one of the few times at that dealership where my husband was working that they asked a customer to leave. But, yes, we were very customer oriented and liked to take care of the customer so that they would remember.
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#111 Consumer Comment

Gougers, period.

AUTHOR: Bob - (U.S.A.)

The difference between a car dealership and a pharmacy where I go in to buy a bottle of aspirin:



- there is not an MSRP on the bottle of aspirin that is only a suggested price, so I don't have to haggle over the price.



- the person who bought a bottle of apirin before me and the person who bought a bottle of apirin after me all paid the same.



- the pharmicist doesn't take my car keys and hide them until I buy something.



- the pharmicist doesn't automatically run a credit check on me.



- if I can't make up my mind whether or not to buy the aspirin I don't have 2 or 3 or 4 other pharmacists or the General Pharmacist) bullying me into purchasing it.



- when I go into a pharmacy I am not kept waiting hours while the pharmacist runs into a backroom to check the price.



Melissa, I know not every salesman and not every car dealership is bad. However, the nature of the business makes it so the dealer has to try to get as much money from each consumer as they can and they cannot do this if they are totally upfront about the final cost of a car and/or financing - this would make it too easy to comparison shop.



I only have to look at car ads to see the deception, "dealer fees" are in the small print. If I buy a bottle of apirin I don't expect to have to pay 5 or 10% as a pharmacy fee. In your repsonse you sounded very customer oriented and when I buy my next new car I hope I do deal with someone like you or your husband. (Amazing what impression a few words make).
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#112 Consumer Comment

Just had to comment being the wife of a car salesman...

AUTHOR: Melissa - (U.S.A.)

Hello to you all,



I have been reading the responses from the consumers and just wanted to let the public know what really goes on in the auto sales industry. I have worked at a dealership which is where I met my husband. I've seen what goes on behind the scene and have been taught some way's on how the salesmen make their profit on deals but just let me remind everyone, can you get an invoice from your insurance company on how much your medication really was at the pharmacy and demand that price, or at a clothing store and insist that you don't want to pay the price on the tag but the price as to what it cost to make the pair of pants that you want. Not all dealerships are honest, no, but salesman are people and most have families. I know for a fact that if it weren't for a lot of the wives making a lot of money, they wouldn't even be able to live on a day to day basis. Try switching for one day and see what it's really like to be in their shoes. I've personally witnessed some first hand experiences with customers that I just wanted to punch in the face. Some people are just rude and expect something for nothing and that is not right either. My husband had one customer that expected the dealership to pay to have his trade towed in and then have all of his tags swiched on all of his car, which he expected the dealership to pay also. My husband got out because 1.The salemen really don't make what they used to a long time ago, and 2. People are out of controll anymore. You make an appointment to go to the doctors to get checked which you probably pay a co-pay of about $20 at the most but deal with a salesman a couple times, use his time up then pop in and make a deal with whoever is available for a $30,000 (hypothetical) vehicle? It does sound like the original post was dealing with a shady dealership, I will admit that but try and think that some salemen are decent and really do want to satisfy the customer. Hundreds of dollars have come out of our pocket to keep the customers happy, like paying for their first oil change, and making sure that when they returned to pick it up it was detailed and cleaned, coloring books and crayons, and candy for the kids. If the customer had to wait to long for finance, paying for them to go to dinner. Just something to think about. Also, and let me say first that I have 2 young children, but, parents with children that bring them along please remember that salesmen are not babysitters and the cars in the showroom are not toys!
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#113 Consumer Comment

Ex-car salesmans' take on car dealerships...

AUTHOR: Bill - (U.S.A.)

In the first case discussed, you said your brother signed a paper when the salesperson took his basic info...name,address, phone number and social security number. What he signed was a "five-liner",not a credit application, but an authorization to pull his credit history. The salesman was not truthful with you, he did not tell you he was going to pull his credit and did so under very questionable circumstances. Not illegal...but, when he showed up toting a credit bureau report,you should have made a major issue out of it. At that point you should have asked to speak with the General Manager or General Sales Manager of the dealership and exposed that practice.



As for the missing MSRPs or window stickers...it is common for them to be in glove box, under seats or in the trunk. Alot of "new" cars have been spot delivered or cleaned as sold and put back into inventory when the deal falls through. It is the responsibility of the dealership to have them on the cars in plain view. You should also check the VIN# on the window sticker against the VIN# on the car and make sure it matches!



As for "spot delivery"...reject it. Tell the salesman that when the loan has been approved by a lender you will take delivery AFTER full disclosure of the terms of the car deal and the finance contract. Don't fall for this tactic. The dealership is hoping you will take mental ownership of the vehicle...show all of your friends and family the car and take you out of the market. They know you are much more apt to pay more in payment or term after you have driven the car for some short period of time. They can also take control of your trade in and make it very difficult for you to shop the deal elsewhere.



If it sounds to good to be true...it is. There is no magic trick, numbers don't lie. It's still buyer-be-ware. Do your homework. Know what you should pay, what the market is on your trade-in, what your interest rate should be, how much you should pay for a warranty, what your credit score is...all of this you can easily find out before you set a foot on a car lot. It will help you save time and money. The manufactures make millions of cars every year, and most are ordered with packaged equipment...so if you don't have the right deal at one dealship, you can bet that another dealership has the same color and equipment elsewhere. Your main goal should be to get the best deal you can.



The buyer has not given car dealers a bad name...the salesman is not responsible for the bad name either. He is just doing what he is told to do...out of fear that if he doesn't, he won't have a job.The blame lies with management and ultimately with the ownership of the dealerships. They set policy. They determine how customers are treated and what will and will not be allowed. Just because a dealership fires all of the managers...the same policies are generally in effect, unless the ownership changes.



Thankfully, the manufacturers have been stressing good customer service, and tracking this rewarding and penalizing dealers accordingly. However, it is hard for them to crack down on a dealer that is doing a massive amount of business. Therefore, it really is up to the consumer to research where they do business. We can and do "vote with our dollars". That is to say...we are free to choose who gets our business and this is the only sure way to get their attention.



p.s. I am an Ex-carsalesman because of all the stress put into what should be a simple sale. Couple that with greedy dealers that are out as much from customers as they can and pay there employees the least amount that they can get by with. Don't feel any remorse for wanting the best deal...it's your right and you are a fool if you don't spend the time needed to save as much as possible. Car dealers brag about how much they make on car deals...I personally have seen deals where they netted over $10,000.00 on a single deal! Ten thousand on one car deal...and not as uncommon as you may think.
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#114 Consumer Suggestion

Hey Robert NONE of the pictures are fabricated!

AUTHOR: Reporter - (U.S.A.)

Hey Robert you need to put your train on the right track. I am a consumer advocate reporting here on www.ripoffreport.com I took all of the above pic's and Not one of the cars that I took pictures of had a MSRP on them.



I only took pic's of cars that had no MSRP. Did you look at the VERY First pic that is posted? What side of the white truck do you see? NONE of the pic's are fabricated!



Want me to get more pic's and have them posted?

Many car dealers like to remove the MSRP and have window tint put on, then they like to hide the MSRP's. Maybe many car dealers hope that they can get the buyer to pay over MSRP if the MSRP is not where it should be by law!



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#115 Consumer Comment

Something wrong here

AUTHOR: Robert - (U.S.A.)

I caught this when I first looked at the pics. All of them show the cars/trucks from the passenger side. Here's the problem. All MSRP and addon/warranty sheets are stuck to the DRIVER side window. This is in all states and all dealerships, new or used. They put them there because 100% of the buying public goes to the driver side when they look at a car or truck. I think your entire report is a crock. Try showing the vehicles from the driver side where the sheets actually are.
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#116 Consumer Comment

I tried to purchase a car there also AD reads $5000 credit for any car running or not, they tried to add and mix up the figures

AUTHOR: Joe - (Afghanistan)

I went in there to purchase a new 2003 cavalier advertised for $8999 cool no problem. My trade is a rare low mile 85 325e BMW prolly a better car than the new chev.



When it came right down to it they tried to add and mix up the figures i mean how stupid had the pink slip to mine paid for and cash for there's. Mine was prolly worth the 5k so i mean whats going on.



It turned out to be a total waist of time for everyone. Infact i read the lower clauses below and there was nothing mentioned that should have changed the deal like one ad, non combined you know garbage.



All in all i see why this dealer is getting the bad rap and i blame chev 2 as most extra price reductions only qualify a very very small percentage of buyers like college grad rebate, military rebate. Lets sue Chev for these deceptive practices.



By the way Chevs have the lowest resale and plan on many problems with there cars. My dad purchased a 99malibu 18k and sold 2 years latter for $4500 barely, i say stay away.
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#117 Consumer Comment

been to bill heard chev in union city, our society is now more capitalism driven at it's worst

AUTHOR: C - (U.S.A.)

I want everyone to remember about this generation. our society is now more capitalism driven at it's worst. everybody want your money by any means necessary. and they will get it, if you give it to them.



I say to you, read everything before you sign, ask meaningful questions. you should even window shop and come back with a list of questions such as warranties, get quotes, and other information in writing, even if you have to write it out and have the sales person sign it. If he doesnt sign it then he is lying. . when you sign those papers make sure you get clear copies. when signing documents, look over them ALL before you put your john hancock on it. they may say we need you to sign each page as you get them now, however it is you under control. do not get intimidated. read each page until you get to the last one then sign it if YOU ARE IN AGREEMENT OF THE TERMS of the DOCUMENT and items you are purchasing. dont take any promises . THIS IS THE TIME TO THINK LOGICALLY AND NOT EMOTIONAL. an emotional decision will cause you to take 24% rate for a loan. If you decide to go head and make that purchase, and you are alone in your purchase, Call someone you know from your cell phone, or ask to use the phone, tell them what you are doing. " I'm here purchasing a car for $xx,xxx.00. it is loaded with........

remember that car salesman is just trying to get a sale. do accept anything up the front first time



You can even wait a day before you agree, ask for a copy of the contract take it home and read it. If you just cannot do this, then act like you are reading it. the sales man will always say something stupid to distract you. if he doesnt, move in slow motion to the door look at the vehicle again and tell him you will be back.

desperate people make desparate decisions.

here is my story about bill heard.



I took my vehicle to bill heard for main. there cost is half of what i would have paid at my gmc dealer.



I was referred by a tow truck driver who use them for his own personal use. I have a gmc sonoma truck 2002 that I am having alot of problems with. I love my truck. bought it with no interest, lots of discounts. i took it to them because the s10 is the same. I am needing some reprieve with my issues in which i will address on my own format at this website.



I have made several major purchases and have been lied to in some format during the transaction.

living room set- material cracking tearing b4 year was up 1)bought a new built home, defective 15 problems with entire transaction the appraiser lied, loan officer and builder lied



2)bought a used vehicle, oil stick too short, engine blew. had to fight for replacement



3)bought new truck, on 3rd radio, 02 sensor, battery, abs brakes head lights, dimmer lights, all under warranty,



4) rented an apartment, lied on several occsions to get me to sign the lease.



5)even at my job, was put in a position of lies being told on me, was suspended from work.



I could go on and on. If you cannot read, then you are screwed. I'm not a stupid person, but I am a decent person who want to be treated the same as I am treating other people, however society doesnt allow it when someone is trying to get your money.



my point is that every instance above, I had to fight., I lost with the furniture issue. Since then I read and read and reread all of my information and had them correct the issues. keep in mind it was not easy to deal with or easily corrected . fighting battles can wear you down and interfere with your life. sometimes you have to pick and choose the battles. but be prepared. document everything. dont let your warranty run out. and when you make your very first complaint. you can make a verbal complaint, and get a verbal response. but send a follow up letter acknowledging your visit complaint, etc etc



I plan on taking my vehicle back to bill heard because my maint work was fine (FUEL FILTER REPLACEMENT). I dont trust the gmc dealer (who just went thru an employee change in the sales department. they also rotate from service to sales)I purchase my vehicle from. because they just lie and try to cover up. so what do you do. you have to trust someone. You can only be alert to what is happening, document everything and take your chances. Remember, It is not always the company but the people who manage.



If you can not fight them then just know what you are doing. and make your concern heard in writing. remember this. if you dont complain then everything must be all right!



p.s. about my house. it took 15 months to get out, but the builder bought it back. and sold it to some unsuspecting soul.



the dealer replaced the used vehicle with a like vehicle after engine blew.



my truck, taking my truck back everytime something happens, contacting gm everytime i go for documentation my apartment. required them to do the work wil be contacting the corporate office.



my job, after my suspension went to manager to find out criteria for suspension. My name was placed intentionally(i was set up by my immediate mgr) we are union so I was able to clear myself.



you cannot sit on your hands, DO NOT let the warranty run out and MAKE SURE IT EXIST BEFORE YOU USE IT. CALL THE 800. check everything. check everything, check everything, because once you sign for it. it belongs to you.



I HOPE MY MESSAGE HELPS ANYONE WHO HAS READ IT.

IF YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MONEY. YOU HAVE TO THINK LIKE A SALESMAN TO KEEP ONE STEP AHEAD OF THEM.

c- from the atl
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#118 Consumer Suggestion

STOP SPOT DELIVERY...F T C SAID THAT WHAT THE DEALERSHIPS HAVE BAD BUSINESS PRATICES

AUTHOR: WAYNE - (U.S.A.)

THE F T C SAID THAT WHAT THE DEALERSHIPS ARE DOING IS BAD BUSINESS PRATICES, MISLEADING ADS AND DEFRAUDING THE PUBLIC. I DON'T KNOW THE LAW ON SPOT DELIVERY BUT IT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED NO VEHICLE SHOULD BE GIVEN TO A BUYER UNTILL THE FINANCING IS APPROVED, THIS WAY THEY CAN'T USE THE BATE AND SWITCH THEY USE GIVING PEOPLE THE VEHICLES THEN CALLING THEM BACK ASKING FOR MORE MONEY OR BRING THE CAR BACK. THE GUY IS WRONG IN REALESTATE EVERYTHING IS DISCLOSED UPFRONT IT'S THE LAW AND YOU DON'T GO TO CLOSING UNTILL EVERYTHING IS APPROVED AND THAT IS THE THE WAY AUTO DEALER SHOULD BE MADE TO DO BUSINESS
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#119 Consumer Comment

The bottom line

AUTHOR: Jim - (U.S.A.)

First let me say that to the person who started this with your letter to this site, good for you. To those who responded, except for the idiot and you know who you are, it has been very informative.



I am in sales, and have been quite fortunate in that I have been with the same company for 5 years now. No I'm not in car sales. I'm actually in mortgages. I do have a friend who has worked for one of the chevy dealers in the valley for about 10 years. 8 or 9 of those years in sales, and the last 1 to 2 years in finance. Her own words are, that is were the money is.



Mark up, or MSRP, on new cars is minimul at best. Even if that mark up is more than the MSRP. As one of the other rebutles mention, everyone needs to make a living, and each business, a profit. While this is true, remeber this.



1)With every detail of your purchase, over and above the actuall price of the vehicle, they bank on you.

2)Educate yourself before you shop. If you can read, and get to a computer, you can really better your odd's of getting shafted.

3)An old but true statement. If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is. Trust your gut.

4)no one works for free. The business will make some sort of profit on you, as well they should. Do you work for free? I don't.

5) Most important. Be in control. You don't have to buy. You can walk away. If they want your business, they will work with you to make a deal that both can live with. If they don't, it's there loss. Someone will. Some would rather keep a reputation of quality customer service and make less per deal, but have more deals. After all, and as I said before, I work in sales, some is better than none.



One other tactic I learned about from my friend. In order to keep you in the dealership, your key's seem to get "missplaced" while they are trying to sell you a bad deal. It's a tactic to keep you there while they come up with every lie they can think of to get you to agree to there terms and buy the vehicle.



Ultimately, when you buy a car, be sure you are ok with the payments, and the term, and read the fine print on every page you sign BEFORE you sign it. If you have questions, ask. If you don't understand, or get a bad feeling with the answer, trust your gut. Get up and leave!! Don't sign anything until you read each page and highlight each question you have so you don't forget to ask.



As for the guy planning to picket the dealership, RIGHT ON!!!! Consumer can make or break any business.
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#120 Consumer Comment

Big Mistake, trying to figure out what your objective was by posting your message

AUTHOR: Gwendolyn - (U.S.A.)

Dave, I am sorry for what is about to happen to you. You can just sit back and wait for the attack. I have been trying to figure out what your objective was by posting your message, but if you were trying to extract sympathy from the public, you just blew it. I do realize you are trying to do a job, but if your demeanor is similar to the many car salemen I have encountered over the years, you cannot possibly be very successful.



I envision you to be a person who meets a customer at the entrance of the dealership where you work and treat that person as if you are doing them a big favor by just speaking to them. If you haven't noticed, the bulk of the cars on the road right now are SUV's, specifically Navigators and Expeditions. It is my opinion they sell themselves. The only reason I haven't even gone to shop for one yet is because of people like you. I don't want to deal with the crap of hackling a price and the back and forth bullsh__ with an arrogant management staff.



The last time I visited a dealership, I actually turned around and walked out the door because of the saleman's demeanor. My reason for going was because I had received a solicitation inviting me to attend an event. My attitude as a "customer" was that if I am going to purchase an item that cost the equivalent of the monthly expense of a house, you had better damn well treat me with the respect that money like that demands. Since customers like me gives the car industry such a bad name, why don't you (salesmen) do a personal assessment and come up with ways to make customers know you really do want their business? It is obvious you do not. You just want to roll a car off your lot as fast as possible and you don't want a customer to question the sales activity in any way. Unfortunately for you, I do beleive the gentleman who extended that challenge to you is about to become your worst enemy in your city.



I am willing to wager that he is going to start his own crusade against car dealerships such as the one you are affiliated with and make you the poster child of bad business practices. I am going to also assume that you are young and just don't know any better. You should never tell your viewing public, your potential customers that they are the cause of the corruption that exists in the car industry. You made a big mistake printing your message. But there is a way out for you. McDonald's is always hiring.
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#121 Consumer Comment

RE: "Leave us alone"

AUTHOR: Brad - (U.S.A.)

Dave, a car salesman, left a post entitled "Leave us alone." Well, Dave, that's what we consumers will do to underhanded, rip-off car dealers. We will "leave you alone" and go to a reputable dealer.



Your ranting was totally irrational, illogical, and off base. Unintelligible, too. (What in the world are you talking about in referring to "hand soap," anyway?) And comparing the car dealer industry to the real estate industry? That's like comparing apples with rocks.



Customers are not the problem, sir. Any good salesman will tell you that the problem to be solved are the customers' NEEDS. Blaming customers for what car dealerships are today? Let's see, how is it that customers created this wonderful system where they are in a dealership for sometimes 6 to 8 to 10 hours negotiating, signing papers, bartering, and waiting on countless trips by the salesman to the "manager" to see what he would approve? We created that? How?



Your simpleton rebuttal should be an embarrassment to your employer, I would think.
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#122 Consumer Suggestion

Dave at B&B F with the BULL get the horn!

AUTHOR: Stick - (U.S.A.)

OK DAVEinMESA who woks for Brown and Brown. Now It is my turn.



I am not saying that B&B is a bad car dealer. But look what I found on the net. Maybe you can tell the 9,000,000 hits a day viewers here at ripoffreport.com what this is all about.



Trust me. I am sure that the B&B's don't want YOU stirring up a RATS nest on this web site. You might get a BULLET! You know what I mean, FIRED if you make any ruckus.



How about the law suit I heard about. You know the suit I am talking about. the one where a FELON took many car buyers to the CLEANERS. Do I need to go fetch more info about it and post it for ALL to read?



Don't come here and try to bash car buyers or try to fetch a few Internet UP's. Car buyers are sick and tired of DECEPTION in the auto industry and you know it.



If you have a set of big ones and you want to debate me on TV 3, TV 5, TV 10, TV 12, TV 15 or in the AZ republic. I say Lets ROCK right NOW!



Contact Bruce Jacobs at KFYI and see if he has he balls to let you and me debate LIVE on KFYI for all to hear. Call him up. 602-258-5394 and ask him. Trust me I will kick BUTT.



Maybe you want to email him. Go ahead, make my day. Email him at brucejacobs@KFYI.com and ask him if he has the balls to let you and me rock LIVE on the air about car buyers and car dealers. You want to expose? Take my challenge NOW! Trust me I will come out on top.



You talk about 6% when a home buyer buys a home. Let's talk about that for a sec. You and I know that the real estate industry is very well regulated. Unlike the auto industry. We, you and I both know GOD DAMN good and well that many car dealers F the car buyers every chance they get.



Don't ask me to post proof. The real-estate industry does NOT do Spot deliveries and you know it. They also do not kick the buyers trade and not tell them. They also do not run a consumer's credit through the F ING MUDD and RIP the buyer a NEW CORN HOLE!



Tell US all about what I found. tell us about these below. Explain it to the 9,000,000 hits a day as to what the below is all about.



http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2004-009294



http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2003-014659



I wonder what SusanL Bostock is upset about. maybe she will find this Rip Off Report and tell us all what she feels!



http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2003-014659



Next we have

http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2000-091234



I wonder what ThomasE Collett the Plaintiff has to say!



Dave don't F with the BULL you might get the HORN. Why don't you go to the below and tell us that you think. Tell US all what these are about.



http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/civil/caseSearchResults.asp?lastName=&FirstName=&bName=Brown+and+brown&x=24&y=7



Again, I am not saying that the B&B's are bad. I am saying I would like to know more. Maybe you can inform us all what the above and below is all about! By the way contact KFYI's Bruce Jacobs and see if you and I can debate LIVE for all of the valley to hear you and ME!



Contact Bruce Jacobs at KFYI and see if he has he balls to let you and me debate LIVE on KFYI for all to hear. Call him up. 602-258-5394 and ask him. Trust me I will kick BUTT.



Maybe you want to email him. Go ahead, make my day. Email him at brucejacobs@KFYI.com and ask him if he has the balls to let you and me rock LIVE on the air about car buyers and car dealers. If you want to defend the auto industry, Let's do it LIVE for the Valley to hear.



You also say "THE CUSTOMERS HAVE CREATED WHAT A CAR DEALERSHIP IS TODAY "



You are wrong, and you know it. Car dealers are the ones that have been bending the car buyers over for way too long. You and I know that the state of AZ has a AG that has no back bone or no money go after the deception in the auto industry.



Terry Gottard if you ever read this, I will help you go after deception in the auto industry for FREE just ask the Editor for my contact info. Yes, I said FOR FREE! I will help you any way I can. Just ask Ed the Editor here at Ripoffreport.com for my contact info.



DAVE I have been keeping a close eye in deception in the auto industry for sometime now. Please don't come on this web site and try to make car buyers out to be the bad guys. It will backfire .



I am sure that you do not want me to post more on this issue for people to read. Your boss will not like the outcome.



Dave you willing to debate me LIVE? If so take my challenge and find local media that will let me and you kick butt. Want me to post all the local media's contact info?
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#123 Consumer Comment

LEAVE US ALONE

AUTHOR: DAVE - (U.S.A.)

I SELL CARS IN THE VALLEY FOR BBROWN AND BROWN CHEVY SUPERSTITION SPRINGS AND EVERY DAY I SEE THE EXACT SAME THINGS FROM OUR CUSTOMERS. THEY ARE SO WORRIED WITH THE PRICE NOW DAYS THAT THEY DONT EVEN CONCENTRATE ON THE PRODUCT THAT THEY ARE BUYING.



MY FAVORITE CUSTOMERS ARE THE INTERNET CUSTOMERS.T HESE ARE THE CUSTOMERS THAT HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.



FOR EXAMPLE: UNDERSTAND FOLKS THAT IF YOU ARE GOING TO BUY A HOUSE IN THIS MARKET THAT YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO PAY A 6% FEE JUST FOR THE REALTORS TO HANDLE THE TRANSACTION.



PLEASE ALSO DON'T FORGET ABOUT THE FINANCING OR ANY APPRECIATION TO THE SELLER. IN MY OPINION , THE CUSTOMERS HAVE CREATED WHAT A CAR DEALERSHIP IS TODAY .



WE HAVE TO CONSTANTLY ADAPT TO THE EVER-CHANGING INFORMATION THAT IS NOW PROVIDED TO OUR CONSUMERS.WE ARE JUST ANOTHER TRADE THAT IS TRYING TO BE SUCCESSFULL. THE NEXT TIME YOU THINK ABOUT WALKING IN TO A DEALERSHIP UNDERSTAND THAT OUR PROFITS ARE NO WHERE CLOSE TO THAT OF A (HAND SOAP )COMPANY BASED ON TRUE PROFIT PER SALE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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#124 Consumer Comment

Additional information...class action suit

AUTHOR: Brad - (U.S.A.)

In my previous post, the EDitor deleted a link, which apparently was to an attorney's office. I didn't realize that when I viewed it until I read Rip-Off Report's policies about links and why the link was deleted.



So let it suffice to say that at least one lawyer's office in Florida realizes that this very shady dealership has caused enough problems to enough people in Florida that s/he thinks there could be a class action suit brought against Bill Heard Chevrolet.
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#125 Consumer Comment

This dealership has had legal problems in other states

AUTHOR: Brad - (U.S.A.)

If you do a Google search on "Bill Heard Chevrolet," you will find that they have had other legal problems.



Sued by an individual in Florida: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/11th/0311384p.pdf



CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.



In Tennesee: www.state.tn.us/consumer/pdf/actions/AirportChevy2.pdf



And an enlightening story on the Tennessee BBB with additional allegations of identity theft by the dealership: http://www.nashscene.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?story=Back_Issues:2003:February_13-19_2003:News:City_Limits
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#126 UPDATE Employee

NEW MANAGEMENT

AUTHOR: Bill - (U.S.A.)

Please note that the Management at Bill Heard Scottsdale, AZ has been replaced as of March 2004. This includes the General Manager. Also, the employees mentioned in this report are no longer employed at Bill Heard Scottsdale. We are distressed that the individual consumer is not satisfied with his/her transaction at this location. We ask that we be given another chance to show just how business practices here have changed to the better. Should a prospective customer have opinions or suggestions, we welcome these comments in order to better serve you.



Bill Foley

Internet Director

Bill Heard Chevrolet

Scottsdale, AZ

480-481-6519

bfoley@billheard.com
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#127 Consumer Comment

Thank you, sir!

AUTHOR: Gwendolyn - (U.S.A.)

I am in the market for a car. I see Bill Heard ads all the time and I was recently inspired to there and discuss a sale. I just read your report. Please, don't give up. Because of your report, I will not be going to Bill Heard's to even get the car I have washed. They were very cruel to you.
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#128 Consumer Comment

Great Job Brandon!!!

AUTHOR: Mad As Hell In MO - (U.S.A.)

I am so glad to hear that you have put this company on the line. There is a similiar one here that I have been fighting for almost 8 months.( search Bud Shell for the story) Im writing to ask, how you go about picketing a car dealership? And do you have any tips? That is next on my list of surprises for Mr. Shell.
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#129 Consumer Comment

they don't display the msrp in some of the cars I bought a 2002 chey silvarado from them that had no sticker

AUTHOR: WAYNE - (U.S.A.)

The first guy said about Bill Heard Chevy, they are out to commit fraud and deception if they can get away with it.they don't display the msrp in some of the cars I bought a 2002 chey silvarado from them that had no sticker. the truck had 2000 miles on the speedometer on 8/31/2002 when we signed the papers for the truck the sales man said don't worry this is a unwind meaning that the truck was a deal that did not go through and I will get a discount I said fine they told that the truck was never titled so they could still sell it as new I said okay,I also requested a extended warranty and we signed all the forms and I took the truck home after giving them 4250.00 dollars down. On 12/28/03 my transmission stop working I called chevy roadside and they said yes you have a 60,000 mile extended warranty and they sent a tow truck to pick up my truck and take it to Bill Heard when we got to the dealership and service writer entered my vin he told me I had no extended warranty,I went to the manager who sent me to the finance man who wrote the deal he tells me the bank had put a cap on your loan so we had to drop your extended warranty to close the deal and that he had told me that when we resigned the paper work I said no if you had told me that I would not have bought the truck he said I am not going to get into a pissing contest with you only thing I can do for you is get you into a 2004 I then asked him about the fact that the truck had 2000 miles when he sold it to me he said so what i have sold cars 5000 miles on them as new as long as it was not titled before.they told me i will have to 500.00 to have the trans fix and rent my own car i paid the money. I was so upset that got online started checking to see if Bill Heard had ripped off other people, I found a lot,next I ran a Carfacts report on my truck to see if it was lemmon and that is when I found out that my truck was titled before in Ga.and on top that they reported the miles on speedometer as only 141 miles I went to the DMV and obtained a history report on my truck that confirmed that the truck was in fact titled before and when they sold it to me it should have beened sold as a used vehicle and dealership infact ingaged in fraud and deception. I have all my documents to prove my case. don't buy from Bill Heard they will cheat you. and I caught them red handed.
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#130 Consumer Comment

...wealthiest business owners around ..all the more reason to check in on this site

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

Automobile dealerships are owned by very wealthy people, typically. Yes, wealthy. Auto dealers are among the wealthiest people in this country. Money is made mostly on unsuspecting or uninformed individuals paying too much for new cars and even more for "previously owned" cars and light trucks. This is still the land of opportunity and in a time when information is so prevalent, I think that it is practically absurd to know that people are still "ripped off" at the car dealership. Are consumer advocacy groups and lawmakers that powerless to make sure we are not protected? Are current consumers still foolish enough with their money to be "taken" at the wallet? Yes on all accounts, and all the more reason to check in on this site as often as possible for the human drama and entertaining stories of the gullible US public being used and abused! Buyer, that's right, YOU!!!! BEWARE!!!
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#131 Consumer Comment

you are on the money about dealers not caring to do business with the informed buyer

AUTHOR: Michael - (U.S.A.)

In response to the car salesman's response above... you are on the money about dealers not caring to do business with the informed buyer.

I live in Columbus Georgia (home of Bill Heard) & grew up in the same neighborhood as the Heard's & have known them all of my life.



They aren't interested in anything but profit, any informed buyer or someone who wants a "good" price will not shop there.



They want to do business with people who believe advertising or people who aren't really interested in what the car costs, i.e. low payments, tax benefits, etc.



All others can shop somewhere else. If you think about it this is the basic definition of profit & businesses have thrived for centuries doing business this way.



The bottom line is to do what you are doing, as informing people of these practices & shop somewhere else. You are naive if you think you can change it. These guys pay a lot of taxes, provide jobs, giving a boost to economic stability of every community they have a dealership. The gov't. isn't going to fight this & GM is certainly not going to fight one of the largest dealers in the nation of their products & if they did it would only change the name to Bill Heard Ford...
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#132 Consumer Comment

Criticism can make one look ignorant, what does that say about me? The claim that dealers want uniformed customers is misleading

AUTHOR: Andrew - (U.S.A.)

What I find amusing is that Clifford of Cottonwood, Arizona criticizes the respondant who felt this is unreasonable, for the use of poor spelling, yet spells respondent' incorrectly, and goes on to spell cocaine without it's e.' If anything, I think brute language skills should be a strong indicator of legitimacy. However, I have a brother that sells cars and makes a decent living in such a career. I agree and confirm his claims that there is a low margin of profit on new vehicles. The claim that dealers want uniformed customers is misleading. True, they don't want you to know their cut-off for the lowest available price. Although, my brother will enlighten you in the annoyance of customers under the impression that financing and rebates are together available. My hope is that a public notice such as this has deterred sales for the dealership, and that the dealership understands why sales have ceased and corrects their detrimental error.
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#133 Consumer Comment

As with any retail business, we must sell at a markup

AUTHOR: Clifford - (U.S.A.)

I work in a car dealership. As with any retail business, we must sell at a markup. Having been in some sort of retail business my entire life(starting at age 7), I was amazed at how narrow the profit margins in new cars are when I first got into the business. I am still amazed at how little consumers know about the car business even after years of being told how it works by "consumer advocates" everywhere. So, I thought I might respond to some of the less informed statements made in this report and help a few people learn something.



First, the advertising you responded to is horribly expensive. A full page in the newspaper is over $30,000; sixty seconds on the radio can easily cost over $300 (how many times, on how many stations, did you hear this ad?). You don't need a degree in math to figure out that the dealer who advertises the most (a monthly advertising budget of a quarter million or more is not unheard of for a metropolitan car dealership), and claims to have the best prices, must pay for all this advertising, plus all the other overhead expenses, with money he gets from customers like YOU. And he's not getting it at a hundred dollars per car...there aren't enough cars to make that work. These guys are paying their bills. So, if you respond to a low-ball ad, you fall into the same category of folk who actually think their lottery ticket is a winner. If you heard an advertiser claiming to be paying a hundred dollars for twenty dollar bills, would you even call to see if the ad is real? Of course not! Why would you think you might actually get 7500 for a car you believed was worth only 2000? These dealers COUNT on ignorance from consumers...they aren't interested in doing business with informed buyers. They don't care if they make you mad. That just means you'll go away and not bother them any more.



Second, the comment made by the sales manager about not being caught is equivalent to not breaking the law is pretty much on target. The FTC has no time for your problem, the AG doesn't care, the police can't help with a civil problem, and no attorney will take a case he can't make money on. Rip-off car dealerships thrive, especially in this state, because there is no enforcement. Zip. Zero.



Your experience is very common. Remember, the more they advertise, the higher their prices, and the greater the chance that their advertising is deceptive. But, a dealer that does almost no advertising also does almost no business, and the guy foolish enough to to try telling you the truth in his advertising probably won't see you until AFTER you've visited one or more stores who lied to you in their advertising. In other words, the folk foolish enough to stick arround and buy from a dealership like this (the Bill Heard group is HUGE)pay his bills, and the others go somewhere else and buy a car at INVOICE.



Third, the respondant who felt this is unreasonable is also ignorant (and a very poor speller). Very few cars, especially lower priced cars, have 15% markup. Even with holdback (3%), the dealer's total markup is usually below 10% at window sticker; I show cars that sticker for $25,000 that have only $800 from invoice to sticker (those of you who think this is not the real invoice are also ignorant). However, most factories kick back a few hundred per car if the dealer sells his objective for the month, the dealer usually participates in the interest charged on the retail contract, and the service contract, Gap, etc. all have profit in them. Many dealers literally lose money on new cars just to get this other business. Make no mistake, there is markup somewhere in nearly every transaction. The Hyundai transaction, however, seems like a much more reasonable one (if you ignore the depreciation of these cars, which, come to think of it, isn't much worse than a Cavalier).



This website is a great start on culling the bad guys. Public opinion will hurt almost any bad business. Be aware, however, that many businesses, when puhed into a corner, simply play chameleon and change their name. SS/DD.



The only way to solve this kind of problem is to go after the REAL culprits, that being the enforcers. If our legal protectors can't prevent billions of dollars worth of cocain from crossing our borders every year, what are the chances they have the time to deal with bad car dealers? An Auto Nation store in sourthern California paid MILLIONS in fines last year for this type of practice, and several employees went to jail. Yet, no owner or share-holder was ever held responsible. Let's tell our legislators to MANDATE putting OWNERS in jail. (What are the chances? The senators belong to the same country club as the car dealers!) After all, they are the ones profiting the most from these types of practices. THEY know what's going on...THEY see the financial statements. THEY know how business is conducted to post huge profit margins and keep a store like this in business. THEY are not ignorant. THEY are also multi-millionairs and can fight prosecution. But, if one or two of them actually went to jail, I guarantee the others would pay attention.



We, as consumers, need to force our governments to get tough. Period.



By the way, the dealership I work for has no additional dealer markup, never advertises a guaranteed trade allowance (this practice is illegal), never refuses to honor an ad price, etc. We, on the other hand, sell way fewer cars than Bill Heard Chevrolet.
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#134 Consumer Suggestion

To past guy and to Original Author

AUTHOR: Matt - (U.S.A.)

To the past author, the dealer recieves their cars and trucks for around 15% less then the MSRP and that is where they make the money. You are claiming that this guy is a moron for not paying the extra 10% more then the msrp the dealership wanted? That is totally unfair business practice and should not be accepted. To the original author, I would personally call the owner of GM if possible as that almost always has a great effect.
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#135 Consumer Comment

Harry what's wrong with Chevy Cavilar?

AUTHOR: Joe - (U.S.A.)

I was interested in one in 1997 and a saleman said I should buy a different car. So what problems does the chevy have? In your experience what truck the same size as a Ford Ranger would be a good buy?
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#136 Consumer Comment

suggestion!!

AUTHOR: Harry - (U.S.A.)

my suggestion to the author is to GET A LIFE,(this has nothing to do with bill heard) your a very cheap cheap person, you think paying invoice minus rebate is a good deal, well no its not, to you it may be, but not for the dealer, you wasted their time, grinded them and still didn't allow them to make any money!! you truely a cheap cheap consumer...how could you only pay invoice, do you understand that the dealer deserves to make money on the car, i guess not, i can't wait to come to your place of business and take up your time then pay you no profit!!



(concerning bill heard) as for the no MSRP sticker, well thats a big big problem, every dealer knows they must have those stickers in hte vehicle, bill heard chevy is in for a world of hurt for not having those stickers i'm sure!!they are morons, but abviousley anyone trying to buy a chevy cavalier is also a moron!!
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#137 Consumer Suggestion

Car dealer deception MUST BE EXPOSED!

AUTHOR: The Great Thorn - (U.S.A.)

It is so obvious to me that this car dealer likes to play games with consumers and ignore the law.



I will see to it that GM gets a copy of this Rip Off Report and I will also send a courtesy copy to the Federal Trade Commission.



Chevrolet Motor Division, General Motors Corp.

PO Box 33170

Detroit, MI 48232-5170

Toll free: 1-800-222-1020

Toll free: 1-800-243-8872 (roadside assistance)

TDD toll free: 1-800-833-2438

Fax: 313-556-5108

Web site: www.chevrolet.com



Federal Trade Commission (FTC)

Consumer Response Center

Federal Trade Commission (FTC)

600 Pennsylvania Ave., NW

Washington, DC 20580

Fax: 202-326-3197

Toll free: 1-877-FTC-HELP (877-382-4357)

TDD/TTY: 202-326-2502

Web site: www.ftc.gov



Note to all car buyers:

If you have plans to buy a new car and the new car dealer you visit has some of their new cars that have had the MSRP also known as the Monroney sticker removed, think REAL HARD about doing business with them. They just might have big plans to play some deceptive games with you.



If you feel that a business of anykind has played some deceptive games with you, File your Rip Off Report today!
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#138 0

Rip-off Report Investigation ...What is A Monroney Sticker? Federal Law

AUTHOR: - ()

Rip-off Report Staff found the following information:



[KS] Although prices can sometimes be negotiable, automobiles are the only consumer items required by law to carry manufacturer suggested retail price stickers. This sticker, also called a Monroney label, is attached to a window of the vehicle. It shows the base price of that model, including all standard equipment; manufacturer-installed options and their retail prices; transportation or freight charges (also known as destination or delivery charges); and the total manufacturer's suggested retail price. Details about the average fuel economy for the vehicle are required on all cars and light trucks; this information is usually included on the Monroney label, but will sometimes be found on a separate sticker, the EPA [Environmental Protection Agency] Fuel Economy Label. The Monroney label may not be removed by anyone other than the purchaser.



The legislation requiring the sticker is commonly known as the Monroney Law, named after its sponsor in Congress, Almer Stillwell "Mike" Monroney (1902-1980): Born in Oklahoma; U.S. Representative from Oklahoma, 1939-51; U.S. Senator from Oklahoma, 1951-69.
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#139 0

Got a new car yesterday

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Yesterday my brother and I went to Hyundai of Tempe to look at a car for him.



He settled on a 2003 Hyundai Accent, which he bought.



The funny thing is that Bill Heard said that he would need a co-signer or money down. Aaron didn't need either at Hyundai. He also received $1000 for his trade and they sold him the vehicle for invoice minus rebates. To top it all off, he got an interest rate of 12% on his first car loan! I even got shafted at like 23% on my first loan.



For anybody looking to buy a new car in the Phoneix area I would recommend Hyundai of Tempe.



The only complaint that I have about Hyundai in general is the warranty. They advertise 10 years or 100K miles on the drivetrain, which they honor. However, the 5 year 60K mile 'bumper to bumper' is not true. Every 12 months or 12K miles items become excluded from the warranty. So, even though it does have a warranty through the entire 5 years or 60K miles, it is very limited after the first couple of years.



But, Huyndai of Tempe did give my brother a GREAT deal on the warranty. He got an extended FULL B2B warranty for 6 years or 75K miles, an alarm with keyless entry, a CD player, spoiler, and gap protection on his loan for $1600.



Still waiting for Bill Heard's response. I'm trying to get time away from my business to picket, I think that'll happen the weekend after Christmas, should be pretty busy in Scottsdale that weekend!


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#140 0

It's not illegal until you get caught!

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Reporter from RipOffReport.com returned to Bill Heard Chevy in Scottsdale one week after this report was filed and again hand delivered a copy of this Rip-off Report to Bill Heard employees, ..and what did we find? Many more new cars with no MSRP's. Read this update below..





I went up to Bill Heard Chevrolet today with two copies of the Rip-Off Report in hand. One of those copies I gave to Karen who is the secretary of the General Manager of the dealership, Steve Napa. The other copy I gave too Carlos who is the head of the customer relations department.



Karen took me into her office and then left to give Jeff, the General Sales Manager, her copy of the report. This is also the person who was supposed to call me back within 15 minutes. Jeff did say that he tried to call me back, but my cell phone never rang nor did it show up on Caller ID that he tried to call. Jeff also said that it's an old habit' to not leave messages. I would think that if there was a pissed off customer that I would leave a message and try everything in my power to contact them ASAP.



As Carlos was reading his copy he asked Karen who Ernie was. Apparently the sales and management staff is so new that even the higher-ups in the dealership have no idea who they are. Carlos and Karen had to speak with the human resources department to find out who Ernie was.



Jeff then came out of the GM's office to meet with me. He took me into his office and asked me what the problem was. I explained the situation to him, but I didn't really need to because he had already read the report. He then told me that Ernie said exactly the opposite, that I threatened Ernie. I expected that, and told Jeff that if my job was on the line I'd probably lie too. The witness that Jeff had to back-up Ernie's story was Ray, who I'm sure was told what to say.



I made it clear to Jeff that the reason for this wasn't to sue the dealership or in any way obtain ANYTHING from him or his dealership, but more so to expose car dealerships unscrupulous sales tactics and the way they treat consumers when things don't go perfect for the dealership.



Jeff explained that the ad that I heard does in-fact say that the $7,500.00 minimum was only good on select Suburbans. I explained that it did not. Unfortunately this is one of those situations where neither party can prove the other wrong; until I get the tape from the local radio station!



Jeff told me a story at this point. He told me that he was driving a Chevrolet Tahoe Z71 and was talking on his cell phone on the interstate. He said that he looked down and noticed that he was doing 85 MPH. I asked him what the point of the story was and he said that it wasn't illegal until he got caught. I told him that the dealership had just been caught.



He also knew that I owned my own business, an automotive glass repair company. He asked me if there was anyway that I would want business from his dealership. I declined. I assume that this was his way of trying to make things go away.'



Jeff told me that most car salespeople aren't that smart, that's why they are in the business. He also said that most consumers aren't that smart, and that is good for him. He said that most consumers don't listen to what is being said and that allows his dealership to sell the car for whatever they want, all consumers care about is the payment not the sales price.



Then the GM, Steve, came into the office. He said that he was just there to listen. Nothing different was said after this. I made it clear once again that I wasn't in this for any money and that I just want to put an end to the way dealerships operate.



Jeff then started to say something and I could tell by the way he was talking that it was going to be some type of a deal.' Unfortunately I cut him off and didn't hear what he was going to ask. I told him that nothing was going to make this go away.' At this point Steve told me that we were done and told me to leave the dealership, and once again escorted me out. This time he went a step further and told me that I was banned from the property. Well, I see where Ernie received his training!



Also, I called Chevrolet today and they told me that there would be an internal investigation and that I may or may not hear from them, but they did give me a Service Request Number so that I can call them back in the future and find out what the outcome was.



I really don't have the time, but I think that in a couple of Saturdays I may be at their front driveway picketing. If anyone else has been screwed by this dealership, or any dealership for that matter, and would like to join me please e-mail the editor at EDitor@ripoffreport.com to get in touch with me. Please refer to Rip-off Report #38266.
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#141 0

Still no customer service...

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Today I spoke with the General Sales Manager, Jeff, and advised him of the encounter that I had yesterday. Jeff told me that the entire management staff was replaced on November 27, 2002 and that they were still trying to figure out how everyone worked. Jeff said that he does not condone the actions of Ernie and that he would talk to him.



I then enlightened Jeff on Rip-Off Report.com and the letters that I had written. At this point the entire conversation changed. He wanted to know what he could do to make me change my mind as far as mailing out the letters. I'm assuming that Jeff does not want the FTC or the Arizona AG's office investigating Bill Heard, and I'm sure if Chevrolet receives enough of these complaints they'll look into it as well.



I explained to Jeff that the letters were already mailed and that even if they were not, there would be no way for him to stop me from mailing them.



At this point Jeff told me that he was going to go get the paperwork from the night before and would call me back in about 15 minutes. It sure has been a long 15 minutes...
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