Camelback Toyota Phoenix deceptive sales practices fraudulent addendum stickers *CONSUMER ADVOCATE REPORT *Update *EDitor's Comment

in the Eastern part of the USA, right? And don't forget to 'Google' this- CAR SALES: TRICKS OF THE TRADE- CONSUMER ALERT, and watch how Tori was SCAMMED at a Ford dealership owned by the 3rd largest Automotive Dealer Group in the USA. Sonic Automotive owns that Ford dealership.

   The reason most car dealers use market adjustment stickers is because of shrinking profit margins caused by the government restristions with the epa and safety requirments that keep growing every year. Granted most salesman are hard working and honstly care about their customers. Most managers and worse, owners, are lets just say a cut below. There's not any other product in the world where you can walk in a ask for the cost of the product, just try doing that at a jewery store or furniture store. They will escort you out. If you are a "invoice shopper" be prepared to work for it. Work is two things, money or time hence the saying "time is money". It is common that the "grinder customer"  is the one who is never happy and always complaining the whole time, even after the sale. Profit is not a dirty word but: yes ripping people off is. Advise: sum up your sales consultant are they helpful, are they listening to you, are they giving you top notch service. If the answer is yes to all these question then did they not earn your respect and should be paid. If you say no then stay away from a person trying to earn a living and keep going to the "rip off's" use your "gut" in judging a person that is helping you. yes never take the first offer ask to see the invoice, find out exactly what the factory incentives are and keep this in mind most sales consultant are paid 25% commison on the net profit usally this is the difference between the factory sticker price and the invoice price, less dealer packs which is what the dealer pays for upkeep of the cars and service area's. so if your suggested manufactures price is $25,000.00 and the invoice is 23,000.00 and you pay $24,000.00 the sales consultant makes $250.00 this may seem like alot of money but you maybe that person's only sale that week. Not you problem but if they have done a good job for you. If you are a cheap skate. and don't care about anybody else here is some advise for you. Know what you want before you come in offer invoice right off and be prepared to buy right then and there. Not wasting everyone's time and effort for you to go home and "think about it" because the chances of you returning are slim to none and that person trying to "earn your business" really is a tax paying, hard working American just like you

I have been in the car selling industry for only 2 years. I have also bought a few new cars myself. I have sold a car at sticker price before. If a customer is willing to pay sticker because they can and they like me and the car, then am I supposed to say "Oh you don't want to pay that, tell me how much of a discount you want and I will take that back to my manager." No. I simply told her this is the price these are your payment options, which one works best for you? And she said "this one." and that was it. You may all think she must have been an idiot. Well she wasn't. She liked the car, she liked me, she did not want to hagle. She had the money and didn't mind the payment. Who are you to say what people can do with their money? I do agree however with the coment about the pizza. If the pizza place advertised a large pizza for $9.99 you should pay that much. In fact, isn't that truth in advertising? If a car dealer advertises a car for a certain amount the HAVE TO sell it for that, anything else would be illegal. I understand sites like Toyota.com give you a price for a car which is MSRP then you get to a dealer and the price is higher becuase of the addendum. But I am sure that a dealer would take your offer if you offered to pay MSRP. The thing is, people expect a discount off of MSRP. That discount is not on Toyota.com. There is no way to know how much that discount will be. So the addendum is irrelevant. Simply there to show you a bigger discount. To find the fair market value and how much a discount you think you should get, do some research online. Don't be unreasonable. From what I have seen and what I will do in the future is hagle until they kick you out. Then you will know what their best price is. If the dealer is willing to say "no deal" or "final offer" then it is the best offer. I think that is called grinding! :)

i have been reading some of the replies on the price structchers of new toyota automobiles sold in your area. I am in the wisconsin area and find the same here. Remember the m S R P is from the FACTORY not the dealership. stop blaming the dealer . The dealer is the one who has to be there to serve the customer, make a profit ( dirty little word ) and pay expenses.I as a seasoned verteran of this business have seen it "all" and find most dealerships are very credible and above board with the price structures. hell.. it is posted right on the car.from the mfgr who sets the prices both reatil and cost.remember sticker is quicker and gives the dealer a fair profit.where else is the "cost" exposed to the cmsumer? go to the grocer and ask for the "cost" of a loaf of bread and see what happens. Go to your friendly realtor and ask to see his " invoice " on the new home you are to purchase. i have made my point. The auto dealers are in the business to make a living. If sales people find it too hot... thank you.... get out and let some one else do the selling that wants too william grunert

OK James you have me feeling that I must have forget to mow my lawn and post a few things for you.

You say that many are "Most Americans live 90 days from bankruptcy every day" How can you or any car dealer justify a price of say $31,000 for a 4 door full size truck? Come on, you car dealers have a big part in the American being so close to a BK.

Many car dealers will do anything to sell a person a car. Even bend the truth about a person's income on their credit app so the deal will fly. Most car dealer don't care if they push a consumer deep into debt, They get paid to do just that!

Go to a local Nissan dealer and see how much they want for a 04 Maxima. Car prices have gotten way out of any kind of control.

Hey James on this Rip Off Report below how many cars can you count that do not have MSRP's. HUMMM makes you think that the MSRP system is nothing more then a game.

Now James you can say anything you want about the MSRP games that car dealers play. I say many only use it as an extra way to RIP OFF car buyers.
http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff38266.htm

Here a car dealer wants $3999 over sticker, Whats up with that? No Ford is worth $3999 over MSRP! Some like to call this "Market Value Adjustment".
http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff63225.htm

Go check this one out James, look at all 10 photos. Just maybe this car dealer might have had a shit load of Yanks that back fired!
http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff39348.htm

Next lesson for you James, so pay close attention! In all 50 states of this great country we have what is called an Attorney General. They all have the responsibility do spank businesses that rip off consumers.

Most are doing nothing, doing only what justifies their existence. Makes one think that many AG's might have big, close friends in the auto industry, Because how many times do you read that a AG spanked a dirty car dealer James?

Now I feel that it is time to show you which AG has balls and is willing to defend the car buying public from deception and Rip Offs.

James I do not want you drinking any beer or wine while you read theses, I want you to fully comprehend what you are about to read.

By the way James, do you think any newspapers in your city would ever do any in-depth stories on what you are about to read on car dealer deception?

Also James, How much does your dealership spend a month in newspaper advertisements? Say $25,000 or may $35,000 a month. Will you post the amount?

If you spend $35,000 per month, you are sending $8700 every week to a newspaper. Now I ask would your local newspaper ever take the time to inform car buyers of the following info below?

Most newspapers will not bite the hands that feed them James and you know this. James quick question for you. How much $$$$ do you spend a week in radio advertising?

Eliot Spitzer is a man that all consumers in New York should thank. He has the balls to spank car dealers that are reported to be playing deceptive car buying games. Now James continue to read on. Check out these and post your thoughts!

http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2003/jul/jul11a_03.html

http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2000/oct/oct12a_00.html

http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/1999/sep/sep30e_99.html

http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2002/nov/nov25a_02.html

http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2002/may/may31a_02.html

http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2003/mar/mar12b_03.html

http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2002/feb/feb28a_02.html

http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2003/mar/mar18b_03.html

http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/1999/dec/dec06b_99.html

James do you want me to post more on auto dealer deception for you to read. Can you defend the auto industry like I can expose it?

Let's you and I fire back and forth, let's call it a little war game. "Dealer and Advocate Show down" Let's see who has the biggest GUN!

I think it will be much fun! Who knows, after we are done we will have gotton more consumers to file some Rip Off Reports.

James what do you think of Eliot Spitzer?

I just wanted to make mention of the fact that not ALL dealer installed addendum stickers can go without notice. We do alot of conversions on our 4WD trucks. When we send a truck out to have a 4" lift kit, 34" tires, 20"chrome wheels, dual exhaust system and wheel flares installed by a Professional Upfitter, we need to add the addendum sticker to add the retail price of the "conversion" to the MSRP the manufactorer put on the truck.

Notice I said we add the reatil price, not the COST. Just because a dealership can buy the added items at a bulk price, the reatil price is what the upfitter would charge the customer if they walked through the upfitters doors.

As far as the selling tactics of keeping a customer on payment versus price, that is how it should be. I would live in a million dollar house for $2000 per month, I don't care how long it is financed for.

Most Americans live 90 days from bankruptcy every day, this is the reason to but what makes you feel and look good if it is in your budget, if you are that egotistical.

If you are afraid you are paying too much per month for too long of a time, my suggestion is to lease your vehicle, as long as it fits in your budget, mileage limits and meets your needs.

I am an ex-carsalesman, and I was quite successful at my job.

I think that the consumer loses his or her perspective on the transaction when they are faced with this overwhelming amount 'information,' both from other consumers, and the dealerships themselves.

While it is true that certain dealerships employ ridiculous mark-ups on thier addendum stickers, the fact remains that, unless you paid sticker, you didn't pay what the addendum sticker allowed. Take for example the Toyota truck in question. The brand I sold was Toyota, and for that I can speak quite honestly. The Tacoma truck in question had an original list price of $22,807. Generally speaking, you can figure out the markup on the vehicle by taking the final price on the manufacturer's sticker and multiplying that by .9, or 90%, then add $200 to the adjusted amount. So on the truck in question, invoice was approximately $20,726.30. The total cost on the add-ons was probably around $400 (dealer cost), so that would bring the total invoice to $21,126.30. If the dealership made $500 profit, which is fair, you paid $21,626.30. So, it doesn't matter if the truck stickered for $100,000.00, if you paid $21,626.00, you got a good deal.

Another thing, holdback is used to pay what is called 'floorplan.' Most dealerships do not own thier stock, they finance it. When the car is sold, they pay it off. The holdback alotment is used to make the monthly payment on the stock, and this payment is often in the 6 digit range. So, in other words, this is NOT dealer profit, and the consumer should take that into account.

Also, if you feel you are not getting a fair deal, DON'T BUY IT. There are plenty of dealerships around, no matter what make or model you are looking for, so don't be suckered by the first one you run accross. Go in with as much information as you can. After all, you wouldn't buy a house without first consulting with the previous owner, talking to the bank, etc. If, after all this, you STILL get victimized, it is your own fault. The salesmen are there to make money, and give you good service. I personally will pay slightly more for something if I know that I'm going to get good service after the sale. The salesmen need to make money too. For most of them, this wasn't the job they dreamed of having, they had to do it because it normally pays well. Treat them with cautious respect, and they will return the favor.

Also, be upfront and honest with your salesman. Don't EVER lie about credit history, payoff, your desired payment, or anything else. If I had lied TO customers one tenth the amount that I got lied to BY customers, the whole dealership would have went out of business. Don't waste all day 'kicking tires' or 'getting a price' if you don't intend to buy a car that day. Have your research done BEFORE you go to the car lot, so you don't waste the time of some guy that only gets paid on commission and who could've had other customers while you were there.

If you have any questions on car buying tactics, feel free to contact me, as I can help you save a lot of money. After all, who better to catch a salesman than another salesman?

That was a classic new car addon invented in the late 70s. You basically paid $250 extra for a wax job. The warranty was pretty worthless.

I was always under the assumption that auto dealerships made the bulk of their profits on used cars and service, not new cars. Ever see a service managers face light up when a woman comes in? Even better, an elderly woman. Face it, auto dealerships feed on the uninformed and the uneducated.

I've noticed it's always the struggling dealerships that use the 'pump' stickers on new cars. The same dealers that offer '$3000 for anything that's towed in' types. It's always for blatantly overpriced junk. I recommend always passing on these 'pumps'. The odds are that only the pinstriping is applied since it can be verified rather quickly. Other items that involve body finish treatments or fabric treatments usually aren't. I usually make a small offer for the pinstriping only. Considering the low cost of the tape and the relative quickness of the application I'd keep the offer to around $50-$75 depending on the size of the car. Is a dealership going to risk you buying the same car (minus the pump) down the road? I doubt it. It's too easy finding dealerships that don't resort to this desperate tactic.

Hey Rudolph it you do not want to get paid a $100 bucks for what is called a mini, go to the Nissan dealer right down the street. I am told that their mini's are $250.

Car buyers should never pay sticker, nor should they eat your Adendom sticker scams.

Hey Rudolph it you do not want to get paid a $100 bucks for what is called a mini, go to the Nissan dealer right down the street. I am told that their mini's are $250.

Car buyers should never pay sticker, nor should they eat your Adendom sticker scams.

Hey Rudolph it you do not want to get paid a $100 bucks for what is called a mini, go to the Nissan dealer right down the street. I am told that their mini's are $250.

Car buyers should never pay sticker, nor should they eat your Adendom sticker scams.

Hey Rudolph it you do not want to get paid a $100 bucks for what is called a mini, go to the Nissan dealer right down the street. I am told that their mini's are $250.

Car buyers should never pay sticker, nor should they eat your Adendom sticker scams.

bottom line is, there is not enough mark up in the car from the manufacturer, and "cheap" people like you still only want to pay about $500 over our cost, well guess what, this way we DO NOT MAKE ANY MONEY, i as a salesman who spends about 3 hours with a cheap annoying mooch of a customer then only make $100 flat after spending hours in the 115 degree sun!! NO i am not for that, as a matter afact i just bought a vehicle my self from a different dealrship and allowed them $1450 over their cost, so people can make money and get paid, i even allowed the finance manager to make a measley $600 on my contract which realy isn't much....PEOPLE WE ARE HERE TO MAKE MONEY AND FEED OUR FAMILIES....

MSRP stands for manufacturers suggested retail price the key word is suggested. In az desert protection packages are pretty much on every new vehicle, as a consumer tell the salesperson that you are not going to pay for any false mark up.If they refuse go someplace else and buy a car. I have seen dealers add market adjustments for hard to get vehicles or the really popular ones like the ford t-bird, mr2 spyders, etc. If you do not like the price do not buy the car its that simple.

John,
I'm right with on the issue of auto dealerships being in business to make money.

However, you are way off base when you try to justify allowing dealerships to inflate MSRP by adding their own addendum stickers with dealer added options.

Cars come from the manufacturer equipped with only the standard and optional features listed on the manufacturer's window sticker. Items like "underbody coating" and "desert protection package" are added by the dealer. Supposedly.
Desert protection packages, if added at all, are usually some guy dusting the interior of your car with the contents of a $3.00 dollar stain protectant.

Is this worth a $900 dollar mark up?
I'm shopping for a new car now and have seen these dealer add-ons. I've also asked every dealer if they could show me the product and how they apply it. I've been turned down every time.
Furthermore, if dealers were interested in honesty they would give you the choice of having these products applied after the purchase.

To use your pizza analogy; how would you like it if you saw a Papa John's add for a large cheese pizza for $9.99 but when you show up at the locally owned franchise you find out they automatically add pepperoni, onions and anchovies and are making you pay $14.99 for it?

We do not edit reports or rebuttals, and we do not changing the "Relationship." Please understand that you may have done it, or sometimes "things" just happen. You must have done this yourself by mistake when selecting the differnet choices! If you think about how far we have come with the Internet, it is a miracle that we do as much as we do.



And by the way, don't be so paranoid! We ARE the victims' advocate, but encourage open discussion of the problems. As such, we also require logical reasoning and critical thought in attacks on the victim. You make several illogical leaps, some based on a misunderstanding of the facts.



First, I would point out that "non profit" is a misnomer. The correct term is "not for profit" which does not discourage profit making or taking by these enterprises, but the manner in which those profits are distributed is controlled.



Next, you mistakenly confuse making profit from making profit ethically. Just as you were offended by the confusion about the relationship, when a dealer misrepresents and lies about a deal, don't you think that the victim should be even more concerned? C'mon John, do you eagerly wish to pay top dollar for your transportation?



Finally, the point I wish to make is that the single-most devastating threat to our economy is not the foreign policy, but unprincipled business. Big brains spend hours trying to figure out how to scam and devise financial shell games rather than developing trust by a standard of principled business. Call me old fashioned, but the old values instill trust, and car dealer ain't got it.



ED Magedson

EDitor@ripoffreport.com

Your titled me as an employee of the dealership in question. I am not an employee of that dealership or any dealership for that matter. I feel that you added "employee rebuttal" to my rebuttal to take away from the content. I understand it is your website, but if you are to have an open and honest forum, please don't edit someones rebuttal to make yourselves look better.

Stick, I was wondering what you charge to advertise on your website and whether you make any profit from it? Are you completely non-profit? What kind of business do you do to make money? When you look at the $22807 sticker on a Toyota, how much profit do you think they have in that vehicle?? The dealer invoice price on a $22807 truck is is $21017. Granted there is a dealer holdback of 2%, about $420. so the total profit on the vehicle is less than 10% of the vehicle price. Look down at the shirt you are wearing, the profit margin on that is 200% plus, have you ever asked to negotiate off the invoice on that? How about the 300% markup on pizza or any other takeout food? Back to the car, with a profit of $2210 the dealership is supposed to pay for shipping to get the car to the dealership, pay for advertising the car, pay to gas and wash the car, pay the salesman to stand out all day hoping for a sale, pay all the people in the back offices for taking care of your paperwork, pay the power bill to keep the dealership open all day and night so you can buy a car at YOUR convenience. I applaud the dealer for putting a few extras on the car to make a few bucks. Hopefully the Salesman and the dealership made some money on this guy. It is a FOR PROFIT business and nowhere in any dealership have I seen a Non Profit Agency sign. No wonder the economy is so bad when we have consumers like you who want everything and want to Pay Nothing for it. Next time you go buy a used car, think about that salesman in Phoenix standing outside on the pavement in 115 degree weather just hoping for the chance to talk to a customer and perhaps sell a car so he can put food on his family's table. Now back to you Stick, since you are so against profit, would you would let me advertise my company on your website for free for a few years.

Since we reported to you on deceptive window stickers, I have returned to this dealership a few times. We found that they continue to use deceptive window stickers to make the car buyer think that the MSRP price from the car maker is not enough.



This rip-off report shows that car dealers like to create inflated prices for things such as window etching, Auto Appearance Package, ...what a joke !! They charge a price of $179 for what they call "Signature Finish Protectorant.Then on an another car made by Toyota they charge $1,179 for their "Signature Finish Portectorant! ...There is no such word!



Yes, they have this word spelled PROTECTORANT. We had to also ask what the heck is Perma-Plate for $279? On one of their cars they are charging $1,499.00 for what they named Protection Moldings & Pinstripe, WHAT A RIP-OFF!! I can't understand why Toyota Motor Corp. does not stop their car franchises from putting these deceptive stickers on their cars.



Stick Bogart

badbusinessbureau.com

Auto Buyers Advocate