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  • Report: #588418

Complaint Review: Ebay - Paypal

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  • Submitted: Thu, April 01, 2010
  • Updated: Thu, May 06, 2010

  • Reported By: Randal — Akron Ohio U.S.A.
Ebay - Paypal
Internet United States of America

Ebay - Paypal PayPal "Pending" payments Internet

*Consumer Comment: The personal attacks against me are ridiculous..

*Consumer Comment: He is a hoot..

*Consumer Comment: The resident "Paypal defender" speaks

*Consumer Comment: Still Ship It

*Consumer Comment: Don't be too hard on the sellers chanon93

*Consumer Comment: Correct, the reason they do this is because of fraud..

*Consumer Comment: pending payments

*Consumer Comment: Oh I totally understand your frustration...

*Author of original report: Good Points...alleged fraud eBay, alleged fraud PayPal

*Consumer Comment: The reason they do this...

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I am a long time eBay/PayPal user and just completed 2 sales withing a week of each other.  I have 60 transactions and 100% feedback.  The first transaction with PayPal was fine. High bidder won, high bidder paid via PayPal, I shipped item.  Good deal.  Second transaction for same type of item (both high -end hand saws), no moving parts, just a saw.  eBay pended the payment within PayPal for 21 days.  My payment terms were "upon receipt of payment, I will ship item (free shipping btw).  After contacting Ebay, a chore in itself, I was told I don't have enough activity as a seller, thus the pend. 

Un frigging believable!  Both the seller, me, and my buyer are inconvenienced as I will not ship until payment is received.  "Pending" ain't 'received' thus I won't ship so my buyer is po'd as well.  Way to eBay -  fine business practice you've got going on.  Thanks for assuming fraud on my part.  After speaking with a 'supervisor' they will lift the pend after 24 hours and I will ship my item.  I am done with eBay/PayPal and will rely on Craigslist or the classified ads.  I spent way too much time and burnt way too many emotional calories on this simple little transaction.  I've have got to assume there is a lot of fraud going on within the eBay community for them to take such confiscatory measures which reinforces my decision to bail out of the on-line auction arena.  I would suggest readers to think twice before using the eBay method to sell/buy items.  The whole thing as an odor about it.  I am trying to be a nice person.


This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 04/01/2010 01:43 PM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Ebay-Paypal/internet/Ebay-Paypal-PayPal-Pending-payments-Internet-588418. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.

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1Author 9Consumer 0Employee/Owner
Updates & Rebuttals

#1 Consumer Comment

The personal attacks against me are ridiculous..

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

First response to "Bigcraig".

I understand your feelings on the matter. But you are already stating incorrect information which may display your lack of experience with ebay.  Have you ever actually used ebay? Have you ever noticed under "shipping" the sellers clearly state their terms...ie: what days they do or do not ship. There is no "3 day" rule I know of.  If there is can you kindly post this as evidence? The only "policies" as far as shipping time with ebay that I know of is sellers must ship within 7 days of cleared payment to obtain Paypal seller protection.  Of course anyone must ship within 30 days according to the FTC. The buyer has 45 days to lodge a dispute if an item is not received. I do not know where you are getting your info from. Most sellers state the buyer will receive the item in 2-3 weeks. I CHOOSE as my terms, to ship in 2 business days max and I stick to it. Hence I have 100% positive feedback on hundreds of transactions. If a seller has problems with shipping times..it will reflect in the feedback. No one has to buy from a seller if they do not like the shipping times..or if the feedback reflects the shipping times are slow.

All that aside, I am not debating whether it is right or wrong for a seller to not ship an item. Of course it is wrong. I am merely stating reality. None of this conversation matters if the seller can not afford to ship the item..since bottom line is it is simply not going to get shipped, period. You can't squeeze blood from a stone. But at least due to the policies set by ebay and paypal with holding the funds, the buyer is GUARANTEED a refund. Would you prefer if the seller kept the money and the item also?

I know it seems like I am defending the seller in this case, I am not. I am just being realistic that this can and does happen with a handful of new sellers, and at least due to the hold, the buyer was protected. Not trying to fight about it. As a matter of fact, if the buyer decides to leave a negative feedback due to this, then that is fair, I will not argue that at all. As long as no one was ripped off financially, everyone can continue on with their lives unfettered.... and get OVER it.

Next on to Flynrider..an easy debunk..

As stated...

"Randal,

   Pay no attention to Ronny.   He will write you a novel explaining how it heavily it is raining, while he is peeing on your leg. 

   That he's actually trying to convince you that you should be happy that Paypal decided arbitrarily to hold your money for 21 days is a hoot!
"


It's not arbitrary. EVERY SINGLE SELLER ON EBAY has to go through this process until they PROVE a history of honest ethical selling with fast shipping and fair pricing. I don't think you want to go here with me..because you stand less chance then a balloon in a pin factory.

Now Robert from Irvine..another one who you would think has had enough debunking from me...

"The hypocrisy just continues to scream out.

Millions of transactions per day are conducted via ebay, and only 5% have hold issues.

- Umm does that statement sound familiar to anyone?
"

What are you talking about?  This is not the same as a bank and I know that is what you are trying to get at. The 5% of the hold issues is not to say there is anything wrong with the holds, quite the contrary..but it is to let others know that 95% of the transactions conducted on ebay do not involve holds on the sellers funds. It is a trial period to protect the buyers. No one is getting ripped off, defrauded, deceived, tricked, manipulated, terms undisclosed, or any other of the factors that have landed the banks in all this trouble. It is simply a policy designed to protect buyers. And ebay is a place where the little guy has a chance to compete in business, as long as they prove a history of honest and ethical selling.

Why do I need to defend this ? You guys need to go back to mocking victims of hookers and psychics..you have no place in a legitimate debate with me.

"Our resident "Paypal defender" has several issues when a bank holds deposits. But the difference there is that a bank is allowed by FEDERAL LAW to hold deposits for certain amount of times to verify funds and protect against fraud. Ronny's response is that he has no idea in the day of the electronic age why every check can't be "verified" in one or two days. But when it comes to Paypal he has no problem with them holding funds arbitrarily for 21 days, or if you read some reports 180 days."

Hey, at least I am defending something that is worthy. As far as banks holding deposits...don't you read these ripoff reports? Oh seems to me..the ONLY time they hold deposits EXCESSIVELY..is when it is a legitimate check from a legitimate source. And it seems they all to often do not put excessive holds when the check just so happens to be a FRAUDULENT Nigerian lottery scam. Ever wonder why Robert? it makes me wonder sometimes.

You also like your buddy Flynrider FAIL to understand that the paypal holds are NOT arbitrary. Paypal is not holding the funds excessively or arbitrarily like the banks do. There is no comparison in any way shape or form. Any they are not going to collect any additional fees due to the holds. And the funds are either going to the seller, or back to the buyer it there is an issue.

You know NOTHING of paypal policies so you have no place debating me here. All paypal transaction holds if subjected are a MAXIMUM of 21 days. The only time it is 180 days that you "read reports" of..is if A) the account holder is closing the account voluntarily..or B) Paypal is closing the account due to a terms violation.

Once the seller establishes a history of positive ethical transactions, all funds are instant. As they have been for me for years and years.

"So since our resident "Paypal defender" knows all, I am sure that he will provide us with the similar law that Paypal is using to allow them to do this.  After all let's not hope that they are just relying on the terms that the user AGREED to.  This is in all seriousness, I really would like to know what law they are using as that could help everyone out."

There is no law involved in this respect Robert. It is a measure put in place to protect from fraud. Paypal does not get our direct deposit, they do not have our savings, they are not insured by the FDIC, they do not receive taxpayer bailouts, tarp funds, or corporate welfare. They do not enroll any customer in overdraft protection automatically or undisclosed, the do not re-sequence the times and orders of transactions to compound fees, they do not manipulate online statements to encourage an overdraft..because guess what Robert?...you CAN NOT overdraft with a paypal account under normal use. I wish the banks were that safe from fraud and human error. Paypal does NOT PROFIT off human error or their customers mistakes. They profit by charging a small fee to make sure online transactions are conducted honestly and ethically, and give the buyers some recourse so they do not end up like all the victims of Craigslist we read about here all the time. They are simply a means to make sure anyone who shops online using their company, will be assured of a safe and protected transaction. An honest fee for an honest service rendered..imagine that? Wouldn't America be a better place if all businesses were like that. Imagine if the banks were like that?

AND unlike the banks..once a seller establishes trust, an electronic payment is AVAILABLE and USABLE as CASH, in SECONDS. Does the bank ever do that for you Robert? Someone in Germany or China or anywhere can buy an item from me..and in SECONDS I can use the funds. What did it take? A PROVEN history of honest ethical business transactions. And what do we read report after report of here????? Bank customers of years and years and years getting fleeced by their very "loyal" bank..and all they have earned after years and years with the loyal bank..is being told "there is nothing we can do" when a problem arises. Robert..what does a bank customer "earn" after years and years with the same bank? It only took me a few transactions with paypal to earn their trust..and it paid off.

"If there is no such law, I would suspect that Ronny would then lead the charge to no longer allow the funds to be held. Oh wait, what was I thinking. He has a vested interest in Paypal. One might say that he is as close to an employee as you can get without being hired. After all he has given several indications that he uses EBay and PayPal as a means to run a business.
"


I have a vested interest in the USA Robert. I have a vested interest that the average citizen can have a shot at the American dream. I have a vested interest that the banks we once trusted..are now an entity we have to be "defensive" of, since the idea that they protect our best interests is a thing of the past. The idea that "customer loyalty" and ethics and community are all a thing of the past.

Yes it saddens me Robert, and it even maddens me at times Robert...but what is really not doing any good for anyone..is these personal attacks against me when I am trying to do the right thing. I just don't get it. Do you really feel you proved any point here?
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#2 Consumer Comment

He is a hoot..

AUTHOR: Robert - (U.S.A.)

The hypocrisy just continues to scream out.

Millions of transactions per day are conducted via ebay, and only 5% have hold issues.

- Umm does that statement sound familiar to anyone?

Our resident "Paypal defender" has several issues when a bank holds deposits. But the difference there is that a bank is allowed by FEDERAL LAW to hold deposits for certain amount of times to verify funds and protect against fraud. Ronny's response is that he has no idea in the day of the electronic age why every check can't be "verified" in one or two days. But when it comes to Paypal he has no problem with them holding funds arbitrarily for 21 days, or if you read some reports 180 days.

So since our resident "Paypal defender" knows all, I am sure that he will provide us with the similar law that Paypal is using to allow them to do this.  After all let's not hope that they are just relying on the terms that the user AGREED to.  This is in all seriousness, I really would like to know what law they are using as that could help everyone out.

If there is no such law, I would suspect that Ronny would then lead the charge to no longer allow the funds to be held. Oh wait, what was I thinking. He has a vested interest in Paypal. One might say that he is as close to an employee as you can get without being hired. After all he has given several indications that he uses EBay and PayPal as a means to run a business.

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#3 Consumer Comment

The resident "Paypal defender" speaks

AUTHOR: Flynrider - (USA)

Randal,

   Pay no attention to Ronny.   He will write you a novel explaining how it heavily it is raining, while he is peeing on your leg.  

   That he's actually trying to convince you that you should be happy that Paypal decided arbitrarily to hold your money for 21 days is a hoot! 

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#4 Consumer Comment

Still Ship It

AUTHOR: Bigcraig - (U.S.A.)

You still have to ship the item within 3 business days per Paypal policy, not doing so can cause you to be banned from ebay and paypal.

You agreed to these terms when you signed up for both of these services and it is not fair to the buyer that paid you in good faith.

Paypal reserves the right to hold your funds for 180(6 months) days, you agreed to this when you signed up.

If I was the buyer and you did this to me there would be an immediate claim to both ebay and paypal and negative feedback to you, as a seller you cannot negative a buyer so it just doesn't matter.

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#5 Consumer Comment

Don't be too hard on the sellers chanon93

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

There appears to be some kind of strange re-sequencing going on with posts and responses on this site, i hope they are working on it. I responded thinking this was a new post and it ends up it is an older post.

Anyhow, while I agree the seller made a commitment to the buyer if the buyer won the auction or paid a BIN listing, if the seller had all good intent to sell and ship the item, but due to human error or not understanding the policies was unaware paypal was going to hold the funds, it does not nessecarily mean this is a poor merchant.

Many times new sellers think ebay is like a Craigslist (where scams run a muck unfettered BTW), and you can just toss a toaster or lawnmower etc on there and make quick cash.

If someone is mistakenly thinking ebay is like a "worldwide" craigslist, they may be simply cash poor, so they list an item they have laying around. The thing is, they have no money, which is why they are listing household items, and when the item sells and THEN they realize paypal placed a hold, they simply do not have the financial means to ship the item. Everyone involved loses in this case, The buyer does not get the item they want, ebay and paypal do not get their selling fee, and the seller is still cash poor.

Obviously this type of seller is not looking to make ebay a home business, and in all honesty, should have used Craigslist or some other local ad to sell the item. A human error is forgivable...we are all human, but there is no reason to blame ebay or paypal because they are trying to prevent scams. If more businesses were like this, we would be seeing a lot less reports on this site.

Granted no "system" or business can be 100% perfect and please everyone, or be 100% impervious to scammers but..you have to give credit for any system that is trying to protect buyers, and making it possible for anyone to be a seller, provided they can abide by the strict policies, and remain honest and ethical for a substancial length of time. To get the kind of information buyers have at their fingertips about a seller on a retail level..they would literally have to stand outside of the store for 12 months, and interview EVERY SINGLE customer that walked out. This is much easier if you ask me.


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#6 Consumer Comment

Correct, the reason they do this is because of fraud..

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

or should I say, fraud "prevention"

Millions of transactions per day are conducted via ebay, and only 5% have hold issues.

I hated it myself when I first started has I went through the same issue. Actually I could not afford to ship the item at all because paypal was holding the shipping fees as well. I was furious but got over it.

But now that I have conducted enough transactions with 100% positive feedback, all paypal transactions are instant cash. This is something every seller has to go through to "earn" trust.  They are not assuming you are a fraud, they are assuming "anyone" can be a fraud, and this measure is a way to protect buyers from a scam. I think you understand but are angry and annoyed at the policy, and I can't blame you for that.

There is no less expensive way to run a home business. You get worldwide exposure, the buyers get protection, and you don't have to compete with the Walmarts out there, which have made it virtually impossible to open a retail store. This is the way of the future for most entrepreneurs, and a way to reach the American dream..which has really been a nightmare the last few years for the "little" guy.

As far as this policy...what is to stop someone from opening a ebay seller account, conduct a few transactions..then decide to post an item, get paid and just not send it and close the account? Where would the money come from to refund the buyer..which ebay/Paypal has to guarantee?

If you don't wish to sell through ebay that is your choice, but don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Like starting ANY business, it takes some investment, but at least with ebay there is little to no overhead or risk. Make sure you have enough funds to ship items and wait the 21 days...actually the hold will be less once to prove you shipped it and the buyer leaves a positive feedback. And in time you will have instant access to every transaction, it was worth the wait for me.

And in reality, the better the buyers are protected, the better it is for the sellers, as if buyers have more confidence and understand how it works in real life..not from disgruntled complaint blogs...everyone can be happy.

Hope you understand and did not take any offense or insult, I am trying to help you and others understand why they do this. Do not take it personal, it is for the good of the whole. If every human was honest and ethical, we would not even need this site..would we? Unfortunately, the few bads ones also hurt the many good ones.
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#7 Consumer Comment

pending payments

AUTHOR: chaon93 - (USA)

A pending payment is being held by PayPal to make sure the item is received, various things can happen to make the payment go into this state but it is NOT fair to the buyer for you not to ship the item, as the buyer has already paid, you just don't have access to the money yet. Money is released upon positive feed back or a few days of the items arrival. the PayPal terms state that they can place a hold to ensure buyer safety, which you agreed to when you signed up for PayPal. I myself have had 300 dollars tied up in pending before, while inconvenient for me, was no reason not to ship the item to my customer. All you did is prove that you are a poor merchant and I will avoid doing business with you.
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#8 Consumer Comment

Oh I totally understand your frustration...

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

As a matter of fact, I only had to issue a refund twice. Once was because I listed an item wrong as it was an antique pen and I used a model number I found from an identical picture of a pen online, but it was not exact size so was a different model, it was impossible to tell from the picture and it was rare so there was not much info available, i did the best i could. The buyer was very understanding, I issued a full refund as soon as it was returned, and was not left a bad feedback. However if I want my final sale fee refunded, ebay forces you to lodge a dispute, and the buyer must respond.

With another refund was just like what happened to you, I was a new seller and paypal would not release the funds. I could not afford at the time to ship the item and paypal wanted proof I shipped it, and THEN to wait 21 days before they release the payment. So I was forced to request to the buyer I refund the money and sell it locally. I did not get a bad feedback luckily from it, but in the dispute with ebay forces us to fill out, the buyer left innuendo that he felt it was a scam. Meanwhile, I issued a full refund, there was no scam, it was this policy that made myself and the buyer angry. I wanted to sell, he wanted to buy, and paypal wanted to keep the money for 21 days which included the shipping fees. Didn't seem fair to anyone, so trust me, I understand.

The fraud that I mention however, is not really a major problem, due to the fact that these policies are in place. Not to say fraud and complaints do not happen, but paypal usually is a good protection, especially for the buyer. There are probably no more complaints about ebay transactions these days, then any business, But when you consider how much buying and selling is going on world wide with ebay, overall it is a very safe way to buy and sell in most cases, and if the feedback is good any buyer/seller should have a good experience.

Whether you buy something at a store, or Craiglists (which is scam central) or ebay, there are always going to be unscrupulous people, that is not ebays fault, all they can do is put in safeguards to help prevent and combat it, which due to these individuals that conduct poor business, good people like us are sometimes inconvenienced. If everyone was honest, there would be no need to hold any transactions by paypal. By the way if you didn't know, Paypal and ebay are essentially one in the same.

But if you are going to blame anyone for these conditions, I would say it would be people who can not conduct honest business, and if paypal let people without a history sell stuff and have instant access to the funds before they were established and proven trustworthy, i would bet then there would be a ton of fraud.

I just read recently someone was selling a car on CRAIGSLIST...met with someone who gave a deposit, and then found out the car was stolen, it did not belong to the person who took a deposit, They had forged documents. Something like that could not happen on ebay if the money is in "escrow" or hold and the buyer is therefore protected from any fraud.
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#9 Author of original report

Good Points...alleged fraud eBay, alleged fraud PayPal

AUTHOR: Randal - (U.S.A.)

Ronny you made some good points and eBay is working for you.  However I am not a 'power seller' , probably won't be.  I come across or have an item to sell and I just want to sell it on eBay.  Can you appreciate the frustion of having this happen out of no where...it really is maddening???  Neither "I" nor my buyer caused any problems ebay is having with the fraud issue which you referred to.  Is the alleged fraud situation with eBay as bad as you mentioned???  I had no idea eBay had an alleged fraud issue unitl you mentioned it - now it makes sense.  Now, I am not only disgusted by eBay's toxic business practices but skeptical (read "afraid") of using them again due to their alleged fraud issues which you mentioned.  Thank you for mentioning the alleged eBay fraud issue which I would allegedly assume is tied into PayPal fraud.  So eBay and PayPal are alledgedly experiencing fraud issues, hmmmm alleged fraud with eBay and PayPal, so disappointing.  I see why eBay and Paypal (same company I believe) are, due to the alleged fraud issues you related to, are causing so many alleged problems with those that use eBay and PayPal - I wonder if their issues with alleged fraud have been litigated??  Thanks for the alleged rebuttal pal. I was hoping someone would do what you did.
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#10 Consumer Comment

The reason they do this...

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

Is not so much that there is too much fraud happening, but that there was at one time to much fraud happening, and this has cut down. It is simply a measure to prevent fraud until a seller proves trustworthy.

So it's not they they are accusing you of fraud or getting any pleasure out of pending transactions, it is simply a preventative measure.

It protects the buyers, and when buyers feel protected, they are more apt to purchase, especially from a seller who does not have a substantial selling history.

For example, what is to stop someone from opening an ebay/paypal account, advertising an item. Item sells, seller spends payment and never ships item, then closes account?

When I started as an ebay seller it was very inconvenient as the money for shipping from the sale of the items was needed to pay for the shipping, and these were items that cost $100.00 or more to ship. It did anger me, but now that I am an established seller with hundreds of transactions and %100 positive feedback, anything I sell up to $10,000 I believe is "instant".

And the nice thing is with ebay, for literally a fraction of the cost to do business worldwide, it really is a great way to make extra income or start a business these days, you just have to earn trust by conducting fair ethical selling/ honest description, and fast shipping, and then they will stop holding the payments. It's worth it in the long run to cut down on scammers, which if ebay truly had so many scams then it would ruin it for others like myself who are doing very well with ebay.

Craigslist on the other hand, although I reluctantly use them for some local selling on occasion, is a scam fest. The buyers AND the sellers need to be extremely weary as meeting a stranger for a cash transaction does not offer the protection of a paypal transaction done on ebay where you can read feedback and comments about who you are doing business with.
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