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  • Report: #885538

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  • Submitted: Sun, May 20, 2012
  • Updated: Fri, June 29, 2012

  • Reported By: John P. — westbury New York United States of America
Ebay
2065 Hamilton Avenue San Jose,California 95125 Internet United States of America

Ebay Barry Spital (spital911) Sold Defective Camera, eBay stands by seller!! Internet

*Consumer Comment: I'm sure he did get a refund

*UPDATE Employee: info

*Author of original report: Finally got my money back!

*Consumer Comment: The troll is at work again

*Consumer Comment: The troll is at work again

*Consumer Comment: Team Rebutt at work

*Author of original report: eBay Buyer Protection is a failure

*General Comment: Be Realistic

*Author of original report: Stooping to Personal Attacks

*REBUTTAL Individual responds: buyers credibility

*Author of original report: I've had luck so far with used cameras

*Consumer Comment: It would be nice to have info come out first

*Author of original report: Mind Games

*REBUTTAL Individual responds: intersting

*Author of original report: Proof Barry S. is lying!

*Consumer Comment: More to the story I guess?

*Author of original report: Camera was not damaged by me

*REBUTTAL Individual responds: John C. Michno ( ebay user name tapelova105)

*Consumer Comment: Thats strange

*Author of original report: Update

*Consumer Comment: Questions

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I will never buy anything on eBay again! I bought a Canon Powershot sd4000is digital camera from Barry Spital (spital911) because it was described in the listing (#Item: 290703644697) as and I quote "However, this camera works excellent and if you are not happy you can return it for a full refund ". The seller had a 14 day return policy, so I figured if for any reason I was unhappy with the camera, I could return it for a full refund.
The item arrived very well packaged, and the seller at first was very friendly and kept in contact with me to verify it's arrival. But when I started using the camera, I noticed that quite a few of my pictures outdoors were coming out blurry. When I spoke with the seller about this, he was friendly and gave me suggestions as to improve the image quality. After trying some things with settings I still had trouble getting an acceptable image. I had called Canon Tceh support who confirmed the camera had a problem with the lens (most likely misalignment), causing blurring in parts of images. [continued below]....
.....
On Sunday, May 13, I had decided to return the camera. I let the seller know I wanted to return it, but he avoided the subject. I then filed a dispute with ebay, as a "not as described". But ebay apparently took the seller's side and denied my claim. On May 15 I filed an appeal, only to have it denied once again. The seller apparently can state he takes returns in the listing, but can change his mind and deny the return. And eBay can allow sellers to state that items work excellent when they clearly don't, and allow sellers to refuse returns even when they state returns are accepted.
The seller is spreading lies saying I damaged the camera, even though I have proof in JPG files that were left on the included memory card that the problem existed prior to his sale to me.
I am now out $113 with a camera that only takes acceptable pictures of close up objects and video. This will be my last purchase from ebay as I no longer feel comfortable buying there, since sellers can lie and get away with it. My only mistake was leaving the seller positive feedback before deciding to return the camera, since he was so helpful, I could never imagine he'd scam me in the end.
The URL for the item is at:
http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Canon-PowerShot-SD4000-Digital-ELPH-IXUS-300-HS-10-0-MP-Digital-Camera-Black-/100113441

This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 05/20/2012 11:05 PM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Ebay/internet/Ebay-Barry-Spital-spital911-Sold-Defective-Camera-eBay-stands-by-seller-Internet-885538. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.

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REBUTTALS & REPLIES:
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Updates & Rebuttals

#1 Consumer Comment

I'm sure he did get a refund

AUTHOR: richard - (United States of America)

More than likely if you are really trying to get your voice heard about the issue and since ebay owns Paypal they can process a refund without deducting it from the sellers account. They began to do stuff like this 3 years ago. I do remember receiving an email about policy changes to be more buyer friendly but since they orgionally found the dispute in the sellers favor they cannot go back on it.
So congrats on your refund and now you don't have to spend all that money on court costs.
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#2 UPDATE Employee

info

AUTHOR: barry - (United States of America)

I talked to Paypal and this person never received a refund. Its amazing how much energy from his lies and scam.
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#3 Author of original report

Finally got my money back!

AUTHOR: John P. - (United States of America)

After contacting the BBB and the Attorney General, I finally got a response from eBay's Office of the President. After they reviewed the photos they agreed there was something wrong with the camera and had Paypal refund my money. I'm so glad I never gave up the fight!
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#4 Consumer Comment

The troll is at work again

AUTHOR: richard - (United States of America)

The truth hurts many. But why are we talking about taking ebay to court again? You agreed as well as I did that if we get screwed we can't hold them responsible. You're better off going through the courts but don't plan on getting a penny from ebay.
Team rebutt sounds pretty catchy by the way. I think I like it.
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#5 Consumer Comment

The troll is at work again

AUTHOR: richard - (United States of America)

The truth hurts many. But why are we talking about taking ebay to court again? You agreed as well as I did that if we get screwed we can't hold them responsible. You're better off going through the courts but don't plan on getting a penny from ebay.
Team rebutt sounds pretty catchy by the way. I think I like it.
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#6 Consumer Comment

Team Rebutt at work

AUTHOR: The Outlaw Josey Wales - (United States of America)

 Richard is a troll of Team Rebutt
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#7 Author of original report

eBay Buyer Protection is a failure

AUTHOR: John P. - (United States of America)

The photos I've posted clearly show an issue with the camera. I've had several photographers look at the camera and they say there is a lens issue. The seller keeps coming back by saying "buyers remorse". Well guess what, the buyer protection is supposed to cover "Buyer's Remorse" as well.
The seller keeps stating that he thinks the camera works properly, when all of my analysis concludes it doesn't. Basically he has gotten away with tricking me into selling my a defective camera by lying about the condition and about his return policy. eBay comes in and defends his lies as well as showing how useless the buyer protection program is.
I was baited by lies and then screwed over by the seller and ebay. Sorry but $113 is alot of money to me and I will fight tooth and nail to get my money back. Full documentation has been sent to the Office of the State Attorney General here in NY who will be conducting an investigation, they have been given the contact information for eBay and the seller.
The seller has even stooped to posting insults on here as well. I will not be intimidated. What happened to me is just what Attorney Generals and Consumer Affairs offices deal with, merchants who sell faulty items and refuse to honor return policies. There's plenty of other complaints of similar practices on eBay. I want others to know to stay away from eBay, you're better off buying from trusted retailers, because eBay does not stand by their own policies.
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#8 General Comment

Be Realistic

AUTHOR: ObjectiveObserver - (United States of America)

After going over this report I see underlying anger and self righteousness by the purchaser over a petty disagreement over an ebay purchase.  First it is an used item and you yet to prove it was defective & not just usual wear & tear.  Second it appears you received with the purchase extra batteries & other accessories actually worth more than you payed.  Your still ahead cash wise on that. 

Third it was in poor taste and judgement to show pictures the seller forgot to erase on the memory card.  Fourth ebay/paypal sided with the seller, this is very rare but it does not mean it is a conspiracy.  Fifth after reading your last response it appears you have an unrealistic view of the legal system & real life.  Do you really think a DA, LE agencies, Lawyers would even give this the time of day?

Those people have more important issues to deal with.  Who do you think you fooling with your self righteous attitude.  Your not a superhero and the seller is not a supervillian.  I can not believe you wasted this much time & energy over a non essential & low level purchase.  Take a step back & get back to reality.  Also to note it has been observed that your responses tend to be emotional, defensive, & you take other responses out of context.
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#9 Author of original report

Stooping to Personal Attacks

AUTHOR: John P. - (United States of America)

The seller sure seems to be quite juvenile in his last message. He's trying to say the sd4000is is an entry level camera. Well that's far from the truth. He's saying the camera has gotten bad reviews. Well not according to the trusted, reputable photography sites I browse.
http://www.steves-digicams.com/camera-reviews/canon/powershot-sd4000-is/canon-powershot-sd4000-is-review.html

Steve's Digicams says "Speaking of image quality, the SD4000 IS does deliver quite well in the IQ department for an ultra-compact camera. The first ever Digital ELPH model to use Canon's new HS System (High Sensitivity), the SD4000's 10-megapixel back-illuminated CMOS imager was able to produce nice clear images that show pleasing sharpness and contras"

Test photos can be viewed here, and show none of the problems the camera spital911 sold me.
http://www.steves-digicams.com/camera-reviews/canon/powershot-sd4000-is/sample-photos-80.html

Another trusted site that reviewed this camera is Imaging Resource.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/SD4000IS/SD4000ISA.HTM

"In lab testing, the lens got solid scores all around. Though the wide-angle end of the Canon PowerShot SD4000's zoom showed some blurring in the corners of the frame compared to the center, it didn't go far into the image area. At telephoto, performance was even better, with only mild softening in the corners."

Which is a far cry from what the camera I bought has, blurring that extends far into the frame and completely unusable results at telephoto.

The seller keeps changing his story, first saying I damaged the camera, now saying thats the way the camera is supposed to work. Meanwhile what I've been saying is consistent, the camera has a lens defect that results in blurring of large parts of the images outdoors of more distant objects.

I've used plenty of cameras and have yet to experience a camera with this problem until this sd4000is. The seller seems to be angry and have a chip on his shoulder, even while he has my money and I'm stuck with a lemon camera. Certified letters have gone out from myself and my lawyer, and further legal action may take place. I will also be in contact with the Attorney General and the Authorities who are looking over my case.

eBay defends sellers like spital911, which is why I would never, ever recommend buying any items there, since they continue to refuse to realize the error in their judement against me, despite a mountain of evidence that says the camera is faulty. He and eBay could just settle this now, but their stubborn-ness may result in a lawsuit that will cost them more than just giving me back my $113.
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#10 REBUTTAL Individual responds

buyers credibility

AUTHOR: barry - (United States of America)

After watching that video I had some of these observations.
 
He never actually showed himself using the camera outside, he just said he did.  
 
How do we know he just did not import the photo from some where else?
 
He never showed himself taking any pictures in the video.
 
What proof do he give of actually calling canon customer service & that was the response they gave him.
 
If he was so savvy to contact canon why not read all the internet reviews before buying the camera as many people have
this problem.
 
Amazon rating of only 3.5 star after 128 reviews which described his same issue which is common in all the sd4000
camera when taking zoomed pictures.
 
The resolution of a digital camera is often limited.
 
Oh 3.8x zoom on an camera for an Experienced cameraman is this guy serious.

Oh 10MP on an camera for an Experienced cameraman is this guy serious.  What does he expect from 10MP.
 
A high end $8000 digital camera at 24MP equals an high quality 35mm film picture.
 
Film has a better dynamic range for pictures.
 
First consumer-level market that worked with a home computers was about 1995 & those sucked.
 
He keeps talking about his Camera Experience. and well if he is so Experienced. then why is he buying this camera as it is considered an entry level camera.
 
It is a pocket camera not a fully adjustable camera for super awesome pictures.
 
How experienced is this guy?
 
Obviously he is not Experienced at making videos because his was terrible.  I guess that experience did not carry over.
 
I thought all Camera experienced. people would have a tripod.
 
He could have used a tripod for a better video, after all tripods can mount either camera or video cams.
 
Why is he showing the photos left on the card by you, he is violating the privacy of the people in those pictures.
 
Great Pocket Camera for regular folks at a great price.

Buyer bought 11 different cameras on ebay in 2 years!
 
Its is a used camera duh.
 
Oh yeah those creepy nails tell me he is trustworthy.
 
 
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#11 Author of original report

I've had luck so far with used cameras

AUTHOR: John P. - (United States of America)

Richard, the thing is I've bought used cameras in the past without any problems. Obviously there's going to be some wear and tear, but regular use should not cause a lens to be out of alignment like that. Also realize the photos were resized, for some reason Flickr wont let me upload the full resolution sample, but you see the crops in the earlier posts. And that is the best result I can get from the camera, many are far worse. OK the only court that would be appropriate for this would be small claims. And it would have be the seller who would be the defendent.
Obviously after this experience I dont think I'll be buying used again anywhere, eBay or anywhere else. since people aren't trustworthy anymore. I must take better care of my cameras than most people as I've never had a lens go out of alignment. I have a feeling the seller probably dropped it and never mentioned that in his listing because it appeared to work properly.
I've been taking pictures for 10 years so I know when a camera is defective. Even Canon agreed the lens is messed up. Perhaps I can get a letter from a store  or Canon as evidence to prove there is something wrong with the camera, since the seller doesn't seem to believe anything I say. I'm just not the kind of person who takes it lightly when I'm ripped off, that's all. I will continue to persue any means possible for a refund.
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#12 Consumer Comment

It would be nice to have info come out first

AUTHOR: richard - (United States of America)

Its interesting that more and more info comes out with every update. The fact that this purchase was for a used product changes things and it makes perfect sense to me. Used cameras simply do not function like a spiffed up new one and after seeing the example of the picture I would say that its not a bad picture from a used camera. The problem with makeing a purchase like this is that you're expecting perfection from a used product. If I go to a yard sale and if someone sells me something like this I know there are going to be issues and thats why there is a saying "you get what you pay for when you buy used stuff".
Now lets get to this issue of talking about going to court. Why would you file suit against ebay? They did nothing wrong and had nothing to do with the transaction. And why in the heck would you even think about adding extra for emotional stress to your lawsuit? If this is true then I would think that there is a mental
Issue at work. You may need a happy pill from a doctor. If this is not so I would say that you are blowing everything out of proportion.
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#13 Author of original report

Mind Games

AUTHOR: John P. - (United States of America)

As you can see the seller continues to deny that there is something wrong with the camera. My evidence is hardly circumstantial, EXIF data inbedded in the photographs shows the time and camera used. He claims I'm expecting too much, but I've bought cheaper cameras that take better photos than this one! Compare these two images! I've used all kinds of low end Canons like the a1200 and a570is, with much better results!

SD4000is - notice blurring in trees
canon a620 sharp across the frame

Remember Canon themselves told me that is not normal. Even if I had "Buyer's Remorse" the seller is liar as he said in his listing (and I quote for the umpteenth time) "if you are not happy you can return it for a full refund". Well as you can see I am not happy!
ebay listing

I have bought and sold cameras. So what does that have to do with this? As I've said before I like to buy older discontinued models by Canon because of their features. And not once have I had a problem with any of them! I have sold cameras because I wanted to upgrade. Now you're asking me to sell the camera to another unsuspecting buyer who will be dissapointed with the image quality? I'm not that kind of seller. I'm honest and state any problems it may have in the listing, unlike you.
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#14 REBUTTAL Individual responds

intersting

AUTHOR: barry - (United States of America)

Hello. As you can see the buyer has "buyers remorse". The photo shows a forest which is a nice photo.  In light of his circumstantial evidence, it is clearly hearsay which the buyer is using the actual camera indicated. In addition, the buyer left positive feedback and positive messages which indicated that he was happy. For a $100 used camera why would he change his mind and want the camera to take photos like a brand new expensive camera?

I believe that the buyer wants the photos to look like a $20,000 camera which this camera is used and is in excellent condition. Considering the model and the year of the camera the camera takes excellent photos. For the buyer to show the video and the actual photos shows that the photos look good.

The buyer has a record of buying and selling cameras and he clearly has "buyers remorse". If he wants to have a camera to take professional photos I suggest he purchase he purchase a better camera like Canon EOS-1Ds Mark IIIEOS Digital SLR Camera.

Now he is threatening a "chargeback" which PayPal would violate his account and lock his account because #1 he already received the item and #2 he would be in violation as disputing an item that is falsely regarded in his care, custody, and control in excellent condition. I have discussed this with Paypal and they are ready for his chargeback and have noted this for action in regards to his account.

I suggest you resell the camera to someone else and buy another camera to make you happy.

B. 
 
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#15 Author of original report

Proof Barry S. is lying!

AUTHOR: John P. - (United States of America)

No, Ebay did not "get it right". What happened here was the seller was able to fool them into thinking I damaged the camera. My only mistake was prematurely thinking I had the camera working properly, leaving that message and the positive feedback, before checking images taken with taller objects such as trees. But I don't think that should cost me $113.

The camera is in the same working condition I recieved it in. I took a video demonstrating that which was shared with the seller to which I have yet to recieve a response.

Video demonstrating function of sd4000is

I am waiting to hear a response from the eBay customer service dept after sharing all the details with them via telephone. I may also be retaining a lawyer for legal action against eBay and Barry S., and if I go that route I will be suing for more than the original amount, due to the stress and emotional strain of this whole fiasco.

Anyone should be pissed spending $113 on a camera when it's photos look like this!

May 11 shortly after recieved Taken prior to sale, same problem
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#16 Consumer Comment

More to the story I guess?

AUTHOR: richard - (United States of America)

You can get a better idea as to why ebay and paypal decided to rule in the sellers favor. As I said before it takes a massive ammount of proof for them to not rule in favor of the buyer and thats what did not make sense to me. 99% of the time this is a slam dunk for the buyer but I now see why. The seller is normally asked to submit all of your emails and based on the content and conversations it allowed them to rule in the sellers favor. Ebay has to protect both buyer and seller and by the way it looks they got it right.
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#17 Author of original report

Camera was not damaged by me

AUTHOR: John P. - (United States of America)

I appreciate the seller's response. However he does not seem to understand what has transpired. The messages he includes are myself trying to work with him and trying to find every reason NOT to return the camera. I took some photos which looked fine but had not many trees, so I didn't realize at the time the top of the pictures were still blurry. Remember I didn't want to return the camera and wanted to make sure I tried every setting possible. But in the end I just decided to return the camera. Buyer's remorse???Hardly. It's a camera model I love, because of it's fast lens, manual control, and CMOS sensor. I really didn't want to return it, and searched for every possible reason not to. But after I spoke with Canon Tech support and they said that the softness in the top and sides of the images is not normal, I decided to return the camera. Barry, you claim the camera worked fine when you had it, then how come some of the photos you left on the card showed the same exact problem I experienced?
Camera photo prior to sale

The camera still works the same as when I got it, I did not damage or drop it in any way. I have also taken a video to show you the camera functions the same way as when I recieved it.
Video showing camera OK

I did leave the positive feedback prematurely, before calling Canon or taking more pics under the new settings. That was my mistake, but I didn't want to leave the seller a negative either. I have bought cameras in the past on eBay and never had a problem. I've bought them on eBay as it's the only venue for older Canon Powershot models which often have more features and better image quality than newer ones.

I appreciate your response Barry and I still hope I can work with you in resolving this matter. I am not out to scam anybody.
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#18 REBUTTAL Individual responds

John C. Michno ( ebay user name tapelova105)

AUTHOR: barry - (United States of America)

To Whom It May Concern, I have been very communicative with John C. Michno ( eBay user name tapelova105) and have communicated with him via messages from the start. It appears that John C. Michno could have damaged the camera. On 5/11/12 buyer wrote, "The video and close up shots are very good, but I'm having a problem getting clear landscape photos." If he had problems getting landscape photos that appears to be a problem with the user and not the camera. The camera took good photos as he said. However, on May 12, 2012, the buyer left positive feedback "Well packaged, great camera, highly recommended! A+++" In fact after we have sent several eBay messages back and forth the issue was resolved with his camera and even wrote on May 12 "I figured it out. I am used to holding the shutter button halfway before taking the photo, since that is what I have to do my other cameras. However, with this one it focuses when the button is pressed all the way. Now the photos are in focus. You're right it's very fast!" Therefore, the camera was in good working condition on May 12. In addition, it could appear to be a training issue that the buyer does not know how to use the camera properly. At this juncture, the buyer was satisfied with the camera, left positive feedback and was happy ("Well packaged, great camera, highly recommended! A+++"). Now, the buyer has decided to return it. The buyer could have damaged the camera. When a camera is used, it does accumulate wear and tear like a car. For example, if a car puts 5000 miles on a car the car is less value. In this case, this could be the same for a camera and I am not sure what happened to the camera. Therefore, I am denying the return of the item. In the emails I have been more then cooperative with the buyer and it appears that he wants a $20,000 camera and needless to say this is not a $20,000 camera. If you look up the buyers record everyone under " tapelova105" you can clearly see that John C. Michno has purchased at least 11 cameras in the year. Furthermore, EBay verified the emails back and forth and they told me that the buyer indicated that he was happy several times. So why did he try to change his mind? This is obviously someone with buyers remorse. Again, if Mr. Michno said he was happy and left me positive feedback why would he change his story and make artificial claims.  Thank you for letting me reply to this transaction. 

 
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#19 Consumer Comment

Thats strange

AUTHOR: richard - (United States of America)

That sounds really weird. I think in more ways than one ebayof is more buyer friendly than it was 6 years ago but the only thing that sticks out to me is that in your report you saidto the seller claimed to have proof that you were the one who broke the camera. In the past i have heard of ebay seller who take pictures of their products before they ship them and then use those pictures in case a dispute comes up. So if thats the case then it may have swayed the rep who handled the dispute. The only other reason why ebay would pitch it aside is if it exceeded the ammount of time to file a claim however this is not the case in this situation. You can allways use the court system where I beleive you can get your money back but as little money thats involved it be a waste of time and money.
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#20 Author of original report

Update

AUTHOR: John P. - (United States of America)

Paypal also closed my claim as well. No reason was given either, just like with ebay. I'm also now getting harassed by moderators on the ebay forum sending me messages on my email, calling me a fraud. The intimidation won't work!
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#21 Consumer Comment

Questions

AUTHOR: richard - (United States of America)

Did ebay say why they decided to side with the seller and did you file a claim through paypal?
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