• Report: #173038

Complaint Review: Majestic Innovations

  • Submitted: Tue, January 24, 2006
  • Updated: Mon, January 25, 2010

  • Reported By:Grand Rapids Michigan
Majestic Innovations
3680 44th St SE Suite 245 Grand Rapids, Michigan U.S.A.

Majestic Innovations, Symmetry Direct, Pyramid Scheme, Fraudulent Job Opportunities, Scam, Lying Company Ripoff Grand Rapids Michigan

*UPDATE Employee: Oh Amie.....

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: If this is a scam...

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: If this is a scam...

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: If this is a scam...

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: If this is a scam...

*Consumer Comment: I'm on Amie's Side Here

*Consumer Comment: Amie, take some advice...

*Consumer Comment: Amie, take some advice...

*Consumer Comment: Amie, take some advice...

*Consumer Comment: Amie, take some advice...

*Consumer Comment: Video from Symmetry on a video streaming site

*Consumer Comment: I'm a little confused

*Author of original report: I have been contacted again!

*UPDATE Employee: First Class Organization

*Consumer Suggestion: In regards to Symmetry and the people behind them

*Author of original report: Thanks Theresa....

*UPDATE Employee: uninformed opinion

*UPDATE Employee: uninformed opinion

*Author of original report: The REAL Numbers, Wisconsin, and other Info

*Consumer Comment: they tried to get me too!

*Consumer Comment: alrighty

*Author of original report: Mark, Mark, Mark

*Author of original report: Mark, Mark, Mark

*Author of original report: Mark, Mark, Mark

*Author of original report: Mark, Mark, Mark

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: Now we're getting somewhere

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: Now we're getting somewhere

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: Now we're getting somewhere

*Consumer Comment: very close

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: Symmetry's "Hiring" Strategy

*UPDATE Employee: to tell you the truth

*Consumer Comment: Simply amazing

*Consumer Comment: Wow

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: Poor Business

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: Just like other businesses

*Author of original report: You're welcome Molly

*Consumer Comment: Contacted Today

*UPDATE Employee: An Inside View

*Consumer Comment: Other possible names may be InnCareers and Innovation-USA-Careers

*Consumer Comment: I also want to point out a few very obvious things.

*Author of original report: Jeff, glad it's worked for you but....

*Consumer Comment: Well, Gosh! I joined an MLM and

*UPDATE Employee: hey, it really HAS worked for me, and I am not a deceptive jerk about recruiting my underlings..."

*Consumer Comment: Michele

*UPDATE Employee: I was called too!

*Consumer Comment: Uh huh!

*Author of original report: More information from Symmetry Itself

*Consumer Comment: i can see your point

*Consumer Comment: Interesting information and a bit of hatefulness....

*UPDATE Employee: You are a thick-headed stubborn ignaramus

*Consumer Comment: answer

*Consumer Comment: answer

*Consumer Suggestion: Just one answer please...

*UPDATE Employee: Response to false information

*Consumer Comment: Investment Required

*Author of original report: Deceptive "Employment"

*Consumer Comment: corrections

*Consumer Comment: Presented as Employment

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: Distinctive Marketing Solutions Scam

*Author of original report: I was told this in regards to the desk space rental

*Consumer Comment: Lisa from Chicago

*Consumer Comment: A bit more honesty required..

*Author of original report: Ignorance rears its ugly head...

*Consumer Comment: What is Deceptive?

*Consumer Comment: Interesting read....

*Consumer Suggestion: Correction

*Author of original report: Deceptive Employment Ads

*Consumer Comment: Premier Promotions Grand Rapids MI-another name change!!!

*Consumer Comment: Truly intelligent people seek truth; not lies and deception!

*UPDATE Employee: To Intelligent Readers

*Author of original report: Thanxs Heather!

*Author of original report: That's great!

*Author of original report: That's great!

*Author of original report: That's great!

*Author of original report: That's great!

*Consumer Comment: I was contacted exactly like Amie described

*Consumer Comment: It's NOT an interview

*Consumer Comment: I also have a few more observations

*Author of original report: I know what I was told

*Consumer Comment: Good Opportunity

*Consumer Comment: Thanx you for you valuable informatiom

*Author of original report: Multi-Level Marketing

*Consumer Suggestion: Not employment

*Consumer Suggestion: Not employment

*Consumer Comment: Pyramid Scheme

*Consumer Suggestion: Misconception

*Consumer Comment: UPDATE First of all..

*Consumer Suggestion: Sounds like a lot of lack of communication to me

*Consumer Comment: Nothing but a pawn....

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: I use to think it was a scam too but it's legit. I've done much research having worked for the company too.

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Majestic Innovations, aka Symmetry Direct, has contacted me numerous times. This information is posted on my blog,but since the company has filed a complaint to have it removed from search engines, and from blogger (which is censorship, and un-American) I wanted to also share it here:

Majestic Innovations Grand Rapids, MI

This company has repeatedly called and harassed me regarding "full or part time work." However, make no mistake about it, this company is a pyramid scheme. What they will do is call you and ask if you are looking for full or part time employment. ( How they get your name and number, I have no idea, but my guess is Monster.com or something equal.) They then tell you to come in for a "group" interview where they will show more information. All it is is a meeting for you to sell their crap vitamins and other products.

Now, here is my problem with them. They have called me over the past year and a half more than 10 times. Each time, I tell them that I am not interested, and to not call me again. However, they called again yesterday, and I let them have it. I called the guy back, Lewis Martin, or something like that, and told him, I was not interested in their selling scheme, to take me off their list, and to never call me again. He responded that they don't have a list, and asked me if I was interested in employment. I again told him that I wasn't interested and to never call me again. He got angry when I told him I had already been to one of their meetings, and told me that I was talking about the wrong company. I infomed him that I knew d**n well what I was talking about, and that if their company, or anyone from it ever called me again, that I would call the police. After hanging up, I filed a complaint with the BBB of Grand Rapids. I also noticed that they had a website. The website that is listed on the BBB of Grand Rapids, Michigan is http://www.symmetrydirect.com/twoodcox/. Interestingly enough, there is a "contact" page. With an email address for a Tim Woodcox. I emailed him, and told him under no uncertain cirumstances that I was tired of harassment from his company,and that if they ever called me again, I would go to the police for harassment. This is the reply that he sent back:

Amie,
I am sorry to hear that you have been contacted 4 times by one of our independant distributors. We do not use a monster search site or anything of the sort. I don't know who called you. If you were contacted by someone in my office it was because someone else outside of our business referred your name to them. Majestic Innovations opened in March of 2005. Again I am sorry. I have told your name to everyone in my office. I hope that no one will ever accedently call you again. Have a nice day.
~Tim Woodcox
p.s.
Money pyramid schemes are illegal. We operate good ethical business. I take pesonal offense to being called a negative pyramid scheme. I understand you are confused about our company though. Good luck to you.

His email address btw is timwoodcox@yahoo.com.

Now there are a few things that I find wrong with his email. First of all, his name, and his information IS LISTED as being the contact person for the name of the company, the phone number of the company, and the website of the company that is listed and registered with the West Michigan Better Business Bureau. Secondly, no one outside of their "business" would be stupid enough to give MY name, and MY phone number to them. I don't buy that. And if that is the case, then why in the world would they consistently call and ask if I was interested in full or part time employment? (He's a liar is my guess. I have no doubt that they pulled this info off of Monster or something similar.) Majestic Innovations, did NOT open in March of 2005. I know this because I went to a meeting at their company, at the same d**n address listed for the BBB last JULY.... that's JULY of 2004. So for him to claim that their company got its start in March of 2005, is a little suspicious to me! And finally, I am not confused one bit about his company. They sell vitamins to thier "employees" who in turn get other people in to their meetings, and get them to sell vitamins and so on and so forth. No matter what you call it, it IS a pyramid scheme. Give me a freaking break.

So, do me a favor, call, write, and harass this company, and file numerous complaints with RipoffReport. They are unethical, unbusinesslike, and unprofessional, and I think that they shouldn't even be in the "business."

And to those who find this in a search engine, don't fall for it. Majestic Innovations in Grand Rapids Michigan IS a pyramid scheme!!!!!

FOLLOW UP:

So I finally heard back about my complaint with the Better Business Bureau. This guy, Tim Woodcox, is either retarded, or a complete liar who thinks he won't get away with it. This is his response:

BBB PROB
From: Tim Woodcox [timwoodcox@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 11:05 AM
To: bbbprob@iserv.net
Subject: RE: #13005511
Page 1 of 2
10/20/2005
Dear Mr. Bob Morris:
Thank you for your help in resolvong this dispute. I received your notice on Tuesday October 11th. I also
received an email from Ms. Amie XXXXX about this same situation. Both notifications came to a me as a
suprise.
Before this week, I had never heard of her name. From what I understand someone in our business had
contacted her after she was referred to them by someone they had met with. To my knowledge it was the first
time that anyone in our office (Majestic Innovations) had contacted her.
Her complaint says that Majestic Innovations repeatedly contacted her. I know that is not true. Everyone who
chooses to work out of this office is an independant business partner who works on a 1099 income. I guess it
may be possible that someone who was another independant representative with Symmetry could have contacted
her in the past. I think she is confused about all these calls being from Majestic Innovations. I opened Majestic
Innovations on March 1st, 2005. It is an independent training center for independent representatives who choose
to build a part-time or full-time business. She says that she was contacted a year ago. That is not possible for the
call to be from Majestic Innovations. I know she received one call from my office by a gentleman named Louis.
Louis had no way of knowing she had been called before from another company. Her name was given to him
from someone he had met with about our business.
She had mentioned to Louis that someone named Amy had called her or met her in that past. We don't know
who that is. No Amy has ever worked in this office. Symmetry has independant representatives in 15 countries
across the world. It is possible that someone else in that past called her. It wasn't anyone from Majestic
Innovations. We now have her name posted in our office as someone to never call again no matter who might
ever refer her name in the future. We don't recieve names from any sort of name search or data base like Ms. Amie XXXXX had suggested to me in her email. We don't do any telemarketing so there isn't even a list to remove
her name from as she suggested.
I have attached a copy of the email she sent me. We will do everything in our power to make sure she never gets
contacted again. However, we don't have any sort of calling list. We work with INDEPENDENT business
partners who are on a 1099 income building a business for themselves. It is impossible for me to monitor every
single call made over the next 10+ years. Please contact me if you need any furter information or co-operation.
Thank you,
~Tim Woodcox
Tim Woodcox
Independent business partner of Symmetry Direct
www.symmetrydirect.com/twoodcox
Desk: (616) 554-1148 Cell: (616) 334-7921
CLICK HERE!
CARPE DIEM - seize the day; enjoy the present, as opposed to placing all hope in the future.
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
Page 2 of 2
10/20/2005


First of all, I know d**n well that I have been contacted by more than one person at "Majestic Innovations." An Amy, and a Kelly have called me before, and at least one other person in the past six months. Not to mention the people who called last year from "Symmetry."

Here's what my guess is as to what happens.

First, they pull your name from Monster.com, and other job sites. I am 100% positive of this, because they always call and ask the following, "are you still looking for full or part time employment." Now if this was a referral service, why in the hell would they want to know if I am looking for full or part time employment? It's not. They pull your name off of Monster, and Yahoo Hotjobs, and God only knows who else. Like I said already, no one that I know would be stupid enough to give my name in a referral service like this. And to finalize my proof, a lady who was kind enough to post her story previously said that her husband was called and a gentleman TOLD HER that him that he got his name off of Monster.

Secondly, they are constantly changing the name of the company.A lot of pyramid scheme companies do this. The place where I went for my "group interview," was at the SAME d**n ADDRESS that they have listed on their BBB website! Imagine that! Now how could I not know exactly what I was talking about? And I even drove by the address here in town just to make sure that I wasn't crazy. I wasn't, and it was the same d**n building.

Third. If in fact they were a referral service, which I don't think that they are, wouldn't they rely on word of mouth from their "independent contractors?" I mean that's how every other Pyramid scheme works. You go to a group meeting with several higher ups and the people who want you to join, and so on and so forth. In this case, they get your info off of Monster, and do a"group interview." It's no different. Majestic Innovations is a pyramid scheme, plain and simple. If people belive in what they are doing for this "company" then more power to them. But make no mistake about it, it is what the rest of the world calls a pyramid scheme.

Fourth, since the guy is making me out to look like a liar, I have half a mind to go ahead and pull my old phone bills, SHOWING the phone calls from his company and publishing them to the public. Quite frankly, I just want the pyramid scheme people to leave me alone and not to call me again, but if it happens again, they will be notified of it, and the Grand Rapids police will too.

Amie
Grand Rapids, Michigan
U.S.A.

This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 01/24/2006 10:13 AM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Majestic-Innovations/Grand-Rapids-Michigan/Majestic-Innovations-Symmetry-Direct-Pyramid-Scheme-Fraudulent-Job-Opportunities-Scam-173038. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.

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#1 UPDATE Employee

Oh Amie.....

AUTHOR: nicole-dsm - (United States of America)

I couldn't read all this and not defend this company.  Symmetry is one of the most best companies I've ever been involved with.  I was introduced to Symmetry 7 years ago in 2002, and have been involved ever since.  This company has the hardest working people probably in the world!  Considering we are in so many countries.  Do you think a scam would spread that far across the world, and still be a bad thing? And we are continuing to grow this year into the middle east.  This company has the highest respect for it's business partners (aka me) and the customers who take our product.  I mean, who gives their customers a 100% money back guarantee after 100 days if you don't like it? Empty bottle or box and all? Only companies who really care about their customers and believe in their product. There are many, many testimonials of great things that these products have done.  I just had a few things I wanted to address from all these posts.


1. Tim Woodcox is a great man and very intelligent and truthful.  He honestly cares about his business partners and wants them to do well, as well as everyone else in this company.  This is why training centers are set up across the midwest to do just that.  And some may have names, some don't.  That's all up the independent business owner that opens the office.


2. Travis Just, Joe Delisle, and so on that were mentioned, are the best people in the world.  They are the most positive people I know and can train on these aspects of the business because they've had great success and truly want us to be as successful so we can all go on annual trips together, get money towards our cars, etc.  I actually work with Travis personally, and being around him, positivity is contagious. He is a great individual, as well as many other in Symmetry.  Our CEO Rudy has 39 years experience in this business!  You think he doesn't know what he's doing? He even comes to trainings to help us with our businesses.  Do you know of any CEO that comes to trainings in the corporate world, or for that matter, do you ever even SEE your CEO's when you're in the office in the corporate world? Probably not. They are too busy traveling with us on our cruise ships.


3. If you know anything about 1099 incomes, you write off things you use for your business.  This is what all businesses do, small or large.  You get tax advantages for helping your business along, stimulating the economy.  That is why everyone goes to trainings, and rent desks, so on, so forth, because we write all that off at the end of the year.  Ask any company owner, and they will tell you that they write off their rent, phone lines, internet use, etc. It's a great thing.


4. Yes, there are many people that fail at this business because they loose motivation, loose focus, etc, etc.  But there are many, many that succeed, myself included.  There is a reason not everyone is a millionaire.  Everyone isn't cut out for all the hard work it takes.  Anything that is worth anything, takes hard work, but you get to play hard in the end. I think Amie, you need to move on and heck at this point, you could've been making great money with Symmetry at this point, because it's been three years since your first posting! 


5. Symmetry's products are awesome. Which is why you will pay more for them than vitamins you will buy on ebay.  Ebay?


Symmetry is a great company and it's rewards are even sweeter.  Both cash and health wise. I know many people that have been helped by the products, myself included and I continue to help people.  I am a massage therapist also, and most of my clients take these products to help better themselves.  It's so great to know in both my professions, Symmetry and massage therapy, I get to help so many people feel better.  That is what motivates me in this company. The money is a secondary bonus. 


 


- Very Happy with Symmetry!

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#2 UPDATE EX-employee responds

If this is a scam...

AUTHOR: Trinstar - (U.S.A.)

...then what was my job working at the scrap metal yard? Seriously.

You make as much money AS YOU WANT. NO LIMIT. It is all commission: you get paid weekly AND monthly, based on many different factors. Big profits from personal sales, even bigger profits from business partners, huge bonuses, car allowances, vacations, cruises, fancy dinners, big hotels, BEAUTIFUL women... I've been there guys; it's not bad at all. The aforementioned folks are amazing people: Rudy Revak, Travis Just, Joe DeLisle, all really cool people, who can really teach someone how to succeed in their own business, like they did. That's really what this is: Successful people, rather than hogging up all the riches like an average CEO, they give you the same opportunity they had to be entrepreneurs, and run it like your own business.

You can make REAL MONEY by doing this. BIG money. It is a combination of sales and owning a business, and the idea of COMMISSION may sound scary to some people, but some people believe in themselves, believe they can succeed, and would rather work for someone who has a FINANCIALLY VESTED INTEREST in my success, rather than some guy who's gonna give me whatever HE feels I should deserve. You are your own boss, you make your own hours, you make as much money as you want. Your earnings are a direct reflection of your efforts and commitment.

Every job I've ever had is a bigger scam than Symmetry Direct. This is the real deal guys; and if you think you have what it takes, or are willing to learn what it takes to be successful, this is one well paved avenue to the high life. I am not a people person, and I didn't work out in the business, but I can definitely see how one could easily succeed with Network Marketing. Seriously, it takes 4 pages to explain all the different ways you get paid! It's real money too!

I made a pretty small investment, and made about all my money back with absolutely no sales skills, experience, or desire. In just a couple months. I'm just not much of an office guy, or a suit and tie guy, and I don't have hardly any friends or family, or connections, or support. But I learned a lot about nutrition, antioxidants, cancer and heart-disease prevention, stroke prevention, which vitamins are good for what parts of the body... And their products are GUARANTEED! OR YOUR MONEY BACK!!! Who has ever made a money-back guarantee on VITAMINS?!? They do, and they are not joking. If I was a different person, I might be rich!

I'm not saying you should "do it!", I'm just saying that it is FAR from a scam, and it was the "best" job I ever had; I was just the "worst" guy for it. Just know that the amount of money you can make is, quite literally, infinite. No glass ceiling, no corporate politics, no asking your boss for the day off, just YOU, and your OWN business. I've never seen any organization which more appropriately defines, "You get exactly what you give."

Sorry if I wasted your time, but I felt obligated after knowing all these great people, and having so much respect for this company for daring to be different and giving people a chance to have REAL success in their OWN entrepreneurship. They give you all the tools, you make it happen. It's an amazing deal, worth checking out to be sure. Thank you anyway :)

Sincerely,
~Drew~

P.S. The pyramid is the strongest and most durable of all structures in the world, of any era, any civilization. A LOT more durable than a wooden-rung ladder that leads to a glass ceiling!

P.S.S. I'm really starting to talk myself back into investing in myself. Thank you for your post, for it may have sparked a better future for me. :) God Bless
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#3 UPDATE EX-employee responds

If this is a scam...

AUTHOR: Trinstar - (U.S.A.)

...then what was my job working at the scrap metal yard? Seriously.

You make as much money AS YOU WANT. NO LIMIT. It is all commission: you get paid weekly AND monthly, based on many different factors. Big profits from personal sales, even bigger profits from business partners, huge bonuses, car allowances, vacations, cruises, fancy dinners, big hotels, BEAUTIFUL women... I've been there guys; it's not bad at all. The aforementioned folks are amazing people: Rudy Revak, Travis Just, Joe DeLisle, all really cool people, who can really teach someone how to succeed in their own business, like they did. That's really what this is: Successful people, rather than hogging up all the riches like an average CEO, they give you the same opportunity they had to be entrepreneurs, and run it like your own business.

You can make REAL MONEY by doing this. BIG money. It is a combination of sales and owning a business, and the idea of COMMISSION may sound scary to some people, but some people believe in themselves, believe they can succeed, and would rather work for someone who has a FINANCIALLY VESTED INTEREST in my success, rather than some guy who's gonna give me whatever HE feels I should deserve. You are your own boss, you make your own hours, you make as much money as you want. Your earnings are a direct reflection of your efforts and commitment.

Every job I've ever had is a bigger scam than Symmetry Direct. This is the real deal guys; and if you think you have what it takes, or are willing to learn what it takes to be successful, this is one well paved avenue to the high life. I am not a people person, and I didn't work out in the business, but I can definitely see how one could easily succeed with Network Marketing. Seriously, it takes 4 pages to explain all the different ways you get paid! It's real money too!

I made a pretty small investment, and made about all my money back with absolutely no sales skills, experience, or desire. In just a couple months. I'm just not much of an office guy, or a suit and tie guy, and I don't have hardly any friends or family, or connections, or support. But I learned a lot about nutrition, antioxidants, cancer and heart-disease prevention, stroke prevention, which vitamins are good for what parts of the body... And their products are GUARANTEED! OR YOUR MONEY BACK!!! Who has ever made a money-back guarantee on VITAMINS?!? They do, and they are not joking. If I was a different person, I might be rich!

I'm not saying you should "do it!", I'm just saying that it is FAR from a scam, and it was the "best" job I ever had; I was just the "worst" guy for it. Just know that the amount of money you can make is, quite literally, infinite. No glass ceiling, no corporate politics, no asking your boss for the day off, just YOU, and your OWN business. I've never seen any organization which more appropriately defines, "You get exactly what you give."

Sorry if I wasted your time, but I felt obligated after knowing all these great people, and having so much respect for this company for daring to be different and giving people a chance to have REAL success in their OWN entrepreneurship. They give you all the tools, you make it happen. It's an amazing deal, worth checking out to be sure. Thank you anyway :)

Sincerely,
~Drew~

P.S. The pyramid is the strongest and most durable of all structures in the world, of any era, any civilization. A LOT more durable than a wooden-rung ladder that leads to a glass ceiling!

P.S.S. I'm really starting to talk myself back into investing in myself. Thank you for your post, for it may have sparked a better future for me. :) God Bless
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#4 UPDATE EX-employee responds

If this is a scam...

AUTHOR: Trinstar - (U.S.A.)

...then what was my job working at the scrap metal yard? Seriously.

You make as much money AS YOU WANT. NO LIMIT. It is all commission: you get paid weekly AND monthly, based on many different factors. Big profits from personal sales, even bigger profits from business partners, huge bonuses, car allowances, vacations, cruises, fancy dinners, big hotels, BEAUTIFUL women... I've been there guys; it's not bad at all. The aforementioned folks are amazing people: Rudy Revak, Travis Just, Joe DeLisle, all really cool people, who can really teach someone how to succeed in their own business, like they did. That's really what this is: Successful people, rather than hogging up all the riches like an average CEO, they give you the same opportunity they had to be entrepreneurs, and run it like your own business.

You can make REAL MONEY by doing this. BIG money. It is a combination of sales and owning a business, and the idea of COMMISSION may sound scary to some people, but some people believe in themselves, believe they can succeed, and would rather work for someone who has a FINANCIALLY VESTED INTEREST in my success, rather than some guy who's gonna give me whatever HE feels I should deserve. You are your own boss, you make your own hours, you make as much money as you want. Your earnings are a direct reflection of your efforts and commitment.

Every job I've ever had is a bigger scam than Symmetry Direct. This is the real deal guys; and if you think you have what it takes, or are willing to learn what it takes to be successful, this is one well paved avenue to the high life. I am not a people person, and I didn't work out in the business, but I can definitely see how one could easily succeed with Network Marketing. Seriously, it takes 4 pages to explain all the different ways you get paid! It's real money too!

I made a pretty small investment, and made about all my money back with absolutely no sales skills, experience, or desire. In just a couple months. I'm just not much of an office guy, or a suit and tie guy, and I don't have hardly any friends or family, or connections, or support. But I learned a lot about nutrition, antioxidants, cancer and heart-disease prevention, stroke prevention, which vitamins are good for what parts of the body... And their products are GUARANTEED! OR YOUR MONEY BACK!!! Who has ever made a money-back guarantee on VITAMINS?!? They do, and they are not joking. If I was a different person, I might be rich!

I'm not saying you should "do it!", I'm just saying that it is FAR from a scam, and it was the "best" job I ever had; I was just the "worst" guy for it. Just know that the amount of money you can make is, quite literally, infinite. No glass ceiling, no corporate politics, no asking your boss for the day off, just YOU, and your OWN business. I've never seen any organization which more appropriately defines, "You get exactly what you give."

Sorry if I wasted your time, but I felt obligated after knowing all these great people, and having so much respect for this company for daring to be different and giving people a chance to have REAL success in their OWN entrepreneurship. They give you all the tools, you make it happen. It's an amazing deal, worth checking out to be sure. Thank you anyway :)

Sincerely,
~Drew~

P.S. The pyramid is the strongest and most durable of all structures in the world, of any era, any civilization. A LOT more durable than a wooden-rung ladder that leads to a glass ceiling!

P.S.S. I'm really starting to talk myself back into investing in myself. Thank you for your post, for it may have sparked a better future for me. :) God Bless
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#5 UPDATE EX-employee responds

If this is a scam...

AUTHOR: Trinstar - (U.S.A.)

...then what was my job working at the scrap metal yard? Seriously.

You make as much money AS YOU WANT. NO LIMIT. It is all commission: you get paid weekly AND monthly, based on many different factors. Big profits from personal sales, even bigger profits from business partners, huge bonuses, car allowances, vacations, cruises, fancy dinners, big hotels, BEAUTIFUL women... I've been there guys; it's not bad at all. The aforementioned folks are amazing people: Rudy Revak, Travis Just, Joe DeLisle, all really cool people, who can really teach someone how to succeed in their own business, like they did. That's really what this is: Successful people, rather than hogging up all the riches like an average CEO, they give you the same opportunity they had to be entrepreneurs, and run it like your own business.

You can make REAL MONEY by doing this. BIG money. It is a combination of sales and owning a business, and the idea of COMMISSION may sound scary to some people, but some people believe in themselves, believe they can succeed, and would rather work for someone who has a FINANCIALLY VESTED INTEREST in my success, rather than some guy who's gonna give me whatever HE feels I should deserve. You are your own boss, you make your own hours, you make as much money as you want. Your earnings are a direct reflection of your efforts and commitment.

Every job I've ever had is a bigger scam than Symmetry Direct. This is the real deal guys; and if you think you have what it takes, or are willing to learn what it takes to be successful, this is one well paved avenue to the high life. I am not a people person, and I didn't work out in the business, but I can definitely see how one could easily succeed with Network Marketing. Seriously, it takes 4 pages to explain all the different ways you get paid! It's real money too!

I made a pretty small investment, and made about all my money back with absolutely no sales skills, experience, or desire. In just a couple months. I'm just not much of an office guy, or a suit and tie guy, and I don't have hardly any friends or family, or connections, or support. But I learned a lot about nutrition, antioxidants, cancer and heart-disease prevention, stroke prevention, which vitamins are good for what parts of the body... And their products are GUARANTEED! OR YOUR MONEY BACK!!! Who has ever made a money-back guarantee on VITAMINS?!? They do, and they are not joking. If I was a different person, I might be rich!

I'm not saying you should "do it!", I'm just saying that it is FAR from a scam, and it was the "best" job I ever had; I was just the "worst" guy for it. Just know that the amount of money you can make is, quite literally, infinite. No glass ceiling, no corporate politics, no asking your boss for the day off, just YOU, and your OWN business. I've never seen any organization which more appropriately defines, "You get exactly what you give."

Sorry if I wasted your time, but I felt obligated after knowing all these great people, and having so much respect for this company for daring to be different and giving people a chance to have REAL success in their OWN entrepreneurship. They give you all the tools, you make it happen. It's an amazing deal, worth checking out to be sure. Thank you anyway :)

Sincerely,
~Drew~

P.S. The pyramid is the strongest and most durable of all structures in the world, of any era, any civilization. A LOT more durable than a wooden-rung ladder that leads to a glass ceiling!

P.S.S. I'm really starting to talk myself back into investing in myself. Thank you for your post, for it may have sparked a better future for me. :) God Bless
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#6 Consumer Comment

I'm on Amie's Side Here

AUTHOR: Anonymous - (U.S.A.)

Just wanted to post this.

According to numerous sources, including the US Bankruptcy Court, Tim Woodcox has filed Chapter 7 Bankruptcy. He has listed his debts to include over $225,000 in debt, and has lost everything. (Except the place he's paying rent on to scam people out of money to join Symmetry Direct.) Many of his debts were for business credit cards, and boy did he have a lot of them. (This is all public information folks.... it's an interesting read too.)

I also want to add this: Tim Woodcox is a scumbag. He has released people's private home addresses and phone numbers and has either himself, or has allowed other people to slander people who file legitimate complaints about being bothered for a job interview that doesn't exist. I have no qualms about telling this guy that he is the lowest of the low.

I wonder if there is a list somewhere to check to see how many other people have had severe financial dififculty for joining Symmetry Direct? And how many of those people are still trying to dig themselves out of the whole that they put themselves in?

You can't continue to lie and lie and lie, and have it not catch up with you. I believe that it has finally caught up with Tim.

And for those who want to claim that people don't call about "full or part time jobs" check 800notes. It's all over the place, and you can read hundreds of posts of people who have been called.

People are getting angry and it's only a matter of time before it catches up with these people.
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#7 Consumer Comment

Amie, take some advice...

AUTHOR: Amber - (U.S.A.)

Is it that hard to hit the erase button on the answering machine or say "no thanks" and hang up? You are getting so worked up about this, I cannot imagine how crazy you get about other things that will invariably go wrong in life. You will end up with a stroke at a very young age if you freak out like this over insignificant things. I get junk mail that I have attempted to unsubscribe from in the past-if it starts coming again, I do not blow my top and waste my time writing to the BBB (they do not care about consumers all that much since businesses are the ones who pay to be members) or leaving messages and writing emails to someone who thinks by now, I'm sure, that you need medication. As for your quote, "No one that I know would be stupid enough to sit through a meeting, let alone stay with the company long enough to give them my phone number. It's not going to happen." Remember that you sat through a meeting. Unless you have actually been harmed in some way, let it go. Do yoga. Take Prozac. Do something besides...this.
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#8 Consumer Comment

Amie, take some advice...

AUTHOR: Amber - (U.S.A.)

Is it that hard to hit the erase button on the answering machine or say "no thanks" and hang up? You are getting so worked up about this, I cannot imagine how crazy you get about other things that will invariably go wrong in life. You will end up with a stroke at a very young age if you freak out like this over insignificant things. I get junk mail that I have attempted to unsubscribe from in the past-if it starts coming again, I do not blow my top and waste my time writing to the BBB (they do not care about consumers all that much since businesses are the ones who pay to be members) or leaving messages and writing emails to someone who thinks by now, I'm sure, that you need medication. As for your quote, "No one that I know would be stupid enough to sit through a meeting, let alone stay with the company long enough to give them my phone number. It's not going to happen." Remember that you sat through a meeting. Unless you have actually been harmed in some way, let it go. Do yoga. Take Prozac. Do something besides...this.
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#9 Consumer Comment

Amie, take some advice...

AUTHOR: Amber - (U.S.A.)

Is it that hard to hit the erase button on the answering machine or say "no thanks" and hang up? You are getting so worked up about this, I cannot imagine how crazy you get about other things that will invariably go wrong in life. You will end up with a stroke at a very young age if you freak out like this over insignificant things. I get junk mail that I have attempted to unsubscribe from in the past-if it starts coming again, I do not blow my top and waste my time writing to the BBB (they do not care about consumers all that much since businesses are the ones who pay to be members) or leaving messages and writing emails to someone who thinks by now, I'm sure, that you need medication. As for your quote, "No one that I know would be stupid enough to sit through a meeting, let alone stay with the company long enough to give them my phone number. It's not going to happen." Remember that you sat through a meeting. Unless you have actually been harmed in some way, let it go. Do yoga. Take Prozac. Do something besides...this.
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#10 Consumer Comment

Amie, take some advice...

AUTHOR: Amber - (U.S.A.)

Is it that hard to hit the erase button on the answering machine or say "no thanks" and hang up? You are getting so worked up about this, I cannot imagine how crazy you get about other things that will invariably go wrong in life. You will end up with a stroke at a very young age if you freak out like this over insignificant things. I get junk mail that I have attempted to unsubscribe from in the past-if it starts coming again, I do not blow my top and waste my time writing to the BBB (they do not care about consumers all that much since businesses are the ones who pay to be members) or leaving messages and writing emails to someone who thinks by now, I'm sure, that you need medication. As for your quote, "No one that I know would be stupid enough to sit through a meeting, let alone stay with the company long enough to give them my phone number. It's not going to happen." Remember that you sat through a meeting. Unless you have actually been harmed in some way, let it go. Do yoga. Take Prozac. Do something besides...this.
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#11 Consumer Comment

Video from Symmetry on a video streaming site

AUTHOR: Steven P. - (U.S.A.)

Check this out, someone uploaded one of the videos Symmetry shows at its group meetings. I can understand using different media to show to different aspects of the business, but to me these videos seem to be a bit on a forceful side - like essentially trying to tell you that every path in life is essentially "not doable," but their way is so easy that everyone who does it will be a millionaire or a billionaire.

In any case, here is the link to the video, to see it you'll need to install Divx on your system.

Video url: http://www.stagehd.com/video/54487254vsbklv0luqs

Divx software (in case you need it): http://www.divx.com
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#12 Consumer Comment

I'm a little confused

AUTHOR: Jim - (U.S.A.)

Amie, may I take just a minute to review some of your previous statements?

First;
"Let's see what the dictionary says about a pyramid scheme shall we?
pyramid scheme
n.
A fraudulent money-making scheme in which people are recruited to make payments to others above them in a hierarchy while expecting to receive payments from people recruited below them. Eventually the number of new recruits fails to sustain the payment structure, and the scheme collapses with most people losing the money they paid in. "

But, later you also state;
"Do you truly believe that people are going to buy $50.00 vitamins from you when [...]"

This means that you have already disproven this as a pyramid scheme with your own words, since you identify this organization as a sales organization. Your opinion of the product does not make the product any less viable. Why would people buy an $80,000 BMW when they can get a $20,000 VW? Does that mean that the BMW is a scam?

Do you consider similar sales organizations, such as Avon and Mary Kay, and Tupperware to be pyramid schemes?

Second;
"Anything that you have to invest money into, is not a "job.""

Well, most people define a "job" as working for a wage or salary. But, the person who pays those salaries ARE investing money, and it is their "job" as an owner/operator. I work for a franchise resturaunt, and the woman who owns the stores certainly works as hard as myself and the other managers, but at the same time had to make a substantial financial investment. I would hardly call resturaunt franchising a pyramid scheme.

That being said, I am sorry to hear that you have been contacted by a company which you have expicitly asked not to contact you. I hope that you can resolve that aspect of your current situation.
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#13 Author of original report

I have been contacted again!

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

It's official!

I was called AGAIN after a year of silence. Thursday April 9th at about 10:00 AM from a "Jeff" at 616-885-1934. However, two things were slightly different. He actually said he was from Symmetry, and he asked if I were looking for full or part time WORK.

He ended up leaving a VERY familiar message, and I called him back. I told him under no uncertain circumstances who I was, and that people from there were NEVER to call me. He apologized, but I was still pissed about it.

I emailed Tim of course, and got some pathetic song and dance about how my last name has changed, and that's why he called. So what?! If my number were posted, as he claims it is, no one should have called me from there.

However, I did file complaints again with the BBB, and the AG, and the FTC. I will catch the stories going out of there too. I am going to DEMAND proof of where my name came from, the date and time it was given to them, and how they came about calling me. He's not "supposed" to lie to the State AG, but we'll see if he does it again.

Anyway, the harassment hasn't stopped, and this further shows me that no one working for this corporation can be trusted.
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#14 UPDATE Employee

First Class Organization

AUTHOR: Casey - (U.S.A.)

When I was first "unethically lured" into this "pyramid scheme", I was very skeptical at first, but truly didn't want to miss out on a golden oppurtunity. I started reading these reports about two weeks ago when I began with Symmetry, and started to feel very uneasy, however I stuck with it and just returned from my first Seeds of Success workshop....all I can say is WOW. I have never been around a more positive, energetic, genuine group of people.

I met some of the people who have been mentioned in this discussion and knew right away that these were fantastic, first class people, ESPECIALLY Tim Woodcox, Travis, and Joe Delisle. It truly was a life changing experience.

Which brings me to this. I understand this oppurtunity isn't for everyone. Some people just don't want to look at the big picture, and would rather act like sheep and be told exactly what to do. Thats OK, but I take real offense to anyone saying these people don't work for their money, or that they are unethical. Please take a look in the mirror, re-evaluate, and stop bashing this fantastic company.
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#15 Consumer Suggestion

In regards to Symmetry and the people behind them

AUTHOR: Michael - (U.S.A.)

I have read much of the ongoing discussion in this report, and I have to honestly say I am quite shocked. I am shocked at the time Amie has wasted in her posts, which has to be undoubtedly hours upon hours of more inconvenience then the calls she may have had and the time she spent in presentations. I don't understand how someone can so arbitrarily ignore all the rationale that has been shown to her by the many intelligent posters in regards to Multi-Level Marketing and the difference between those businesses and pyramid schemes.

As one poster said, Amway, Quixtar, etc, are all owned by Alticore. As this isn't exactly hidden knowledge it is a little bit obscure. I applaud the extent of his intimacy. The owner and founder of Symmetry is Rudy Revak. He is someone I know personally havin grown up since a child surrounded by Multi-Level Marketers. As a matter of fact I know personally many of the Vice Presidents of Symmetry and I have never met more ethical and moral people in my life. I don't want to go too much into this hodge podge mess here, so I just want to give a little background information on Symmetry and some people who participate in it.

Rudy Revak was a former president of the Diamite Corporation which was also a nutritional company. My family began Independent Distributors around 1989 or 1990 I can't remember too well. Anyways, they worked with it for a while always part time. did well. They didn't make lot's of money because they didn't work that much, yet they did well. Well eventually Rudy Revak had disagreements with the owners of Diamite when they wanted to merge with some other companies, they also wanted to pay distributors less and charge more for product. So basically he said forget that and decided to leave and start his own company.

Enter Symmetry founded in 1995. I and my family have been their from the beginning. Even though I haven't been working Symmetry until now, I do know of all the health benefits of the products and how great the business opportunity has been for many people. Many of them who I know personally who have already retired.

I don't want to do all of Amie's research, either way it'd be pointless because as many have pointed out she only believes what she wants. It's ok to be skeptical, it's sad though to be blindly ignorant even when presented with politeness,rationale,an abundance of information and patience.

Sincerely,

Michael St Louis
Rancho Cucamonga, CA
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#16 Author of original report

Thanks Theresa....

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

But yet again, this is a personal attack against me, and something that doesn't address the numbers, the information that I have provided, nor the facts that this company is a pyramid scheme.

I pay for my phone and the phone bill first of all. I don't like being harassed. When someone calls repeatedly, especially, *ahem* AFTER I HAVE BEEN TO AN "INTERVIEW" or "OVERVIEW" as you call it, this is annoying, and it's harassment plain and simple. So yes, I went to my "INTERVIEW" as it was called Theresa. Therefore, I have a very informed opinion of the company. Had you taken the time to actually read my complaint you would have realized this, rather than make yourself look silly.

I guess I don't care if you have been to the Dominican Republic or not. My understanding is that you or your husband would have had to have ripped a lot of people off and out of their money to be able to attend by getting them signed up underneath you as part of the pyramid scheme.

I don't know Joe Delisle or Tim Woodcox personally. However, the Bible, the same Bible that you get your products from (according to Symmetry's own websites) claims that you can know people by the fruit that they bare. Tim Woodcox and Joe Delisle both support lying and deceipt, enethical business practices and attempting tp silence those who disagree with them. Those and that is not the type of people that I would want to be associated with. And btw- appearances can be deceiving, in your case.

Thank you for trying to sell me Symmetry's products by telling the story of your mother in law! Great sales pitch! However, I would rather go to GNC and get something for half the price that I wouldn't have to sell my sould to a pyramid scheme for!

Theresa, while you would make a great sales person, you have failed to do anything but attack me and make claims and sales pitches for Symmetry. I suggest that before you file a rebuttal, you actually go ahead and read what I wrote next time.

I have been to an overview. I have read the numbers. I have read a lot of the books. It simply doesn't add up or make sense. PERIOD.

I am sorry that you are duped into believing in the system, and hope that your husband can find true employment when the pyramid comes crashing down.
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#17 UPDATE Employee

uninformed opinion

AUTHOR: Theresa - (U.S.A.)

I don't know what happened in your life to make you so angry over a couple of phone calls. I know Joe DeLisle, Travis Just and Tim Woodcox personally and hav known them for a few years now and have found them to be sincere and caring people who just want those in Symmetry to succeed.

I myself have just returned from an all expense paid trip with others within this company, including these individuals, that I and my husband worked very hard to earn to the Dominican Republic. I also know of lives that have been changed due the the products available one of those people being my mother in law who has been in bed due to a car accident for almost 6 years now but her health, other than a surgery to fuse the bone of her ankle and a couple of others taht she is waiting for she is in operfect health while others that are in her same cobdition would probably have developed diabetes and other problems from being in bed for so long.

I need to ask have you ever been to an overview or tried Symmetry's products I'm guessing not so how can you even have an infrmed opinion about the company? And as for the investment of products and trainings would you buy something from someone that hasn't used the product they're selling?

I'm guessing not and as for the expense of trainings most people invest in they're careers. It's called COLLEGE and it costs alot more than a weekend training with Symmetry so having been to several of these trainings myself and having been to college I have absolutly no complaints about the costs and your not required to attend if you want to sincerely build a successful business than it's beneficial for a person to attend.

On a side note all the people that get called by these independent business partners get most of their contactrs through referrals of opthers or from ads these individuals run. i also recommend you read THE BUSINESS SCHOOL by Robert Kiosaki which will answer alot of questions for people reading this sight on why we do network marketing.

I also waqnt to say to Amie that I'm truly sorry about whatever happened in your life to make you so bitter and cynical over a couple of phone calls and I pray to God that you will fin peace and joy in your future.

Sincerely,
Theresa
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#18 UPDATE Employee

uninformed opinion

AUTHOR: Theresa - (U.S.A.)

I don't know what happened in your life to make you so angry over a couple of phone calls. I know Joe DeLisle, Travis Just and Tim Woodcox personally and hav known them for a few years now and have found them to be sincere and caring people who just want those in Symmetry to succeed.

I myself have just returned from an all expense paid trip with others within this company, including these individuals, that I and my husband worked very hard to earn to the Dominican Republic. I also know of lives that have been changed due the the products available one of those people being my mother in law who has been in bed due to a car accident for almost 6 years now but her health, other than a surgery to fuse the bone of her ankle and a couple of others taht she is waiting for she is in operfect health while others that are in her same cobdition would probably have developed diabetes and other problems from being in bed for so long.

I need to ask have you ever been to an overview or tried Symmetry's products I'm guessing not so how can you even have an infrmed opinion about the company? And as for the investment of products and trainings would you buy something from someone that hasn't used the product they're selling?

I'm guessing not and as for the expense of trainings most people invest in they're careers. It's called COLLEGE and it costs alot more than a weekend training with Symmetry so having been to several of these trainings myself and having been to college I have absolutly no complaints about the costs and your not required to attend if you want to sincerely build a successful business than it's beneficial for a person to attend.

On a side note all the people that get called by these independent business partners get most of their contactrs through referrals of opthers or from ads these individuals run. i also recommend you read THE BUSINESS SCHOOL by Robert Kiosaki which will answer alot of questions for people reading this sight on why we do network marketing.

I also waqnt to say to Amie that I'm truly sorry about whatever happened in your life to make you so bitter and cynical over a couple of phone calls and I pray to God that you will fin peace and joy in your future.

Sincerely,
Theresa
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#19 Author of original report

The REAL Numbers, Wisconsin, and other Info

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Mark, just to clarify our "misunderstanding." The advertisements that are out there, and not just here in Michigan, but in other parts of the country, are advertising for Customer Service positions, and Administrative Assistant Positions, WITHOUT claiming that they are 1099 or any other type of marketing "jobs." Even the ones locally here are quite deceiving, as we already know.(I've noticed though that after several complaints, they have toned down their deception, of which I am very pleased to see.) I don't think I need to go through this again. Not everyone is aware of what a 1099 "job" is, and not everyone believes that a Fitness Employment opportunity is actually a health company that is wanting you to sell overpriced vitamins for them and recruit other people to do this as well for a large amount of money.

While Symmetry products may be shipped all over the world, I am under the impression that they are not allowed to have their pyramid scheme operating in Wisconsin, thanks to a man that you may know of heard of named Joe Delisle. This is the same man who worked for Trek Alliance, which is also another pyramid scheme, that the FTC shut down for operating under the SAME deceptive tactics that Symmetry Direct now works under. Interestingly enough, if you do a google, you find that Mr. DeLisle operates out of Minneapolis... conveniently RIGHT near the border of Wisconsin. Coincidence? I don't think so. According to Rick Ross dot Com, there are more than enough valid complaints against this man, and what he did during his time at Trek Alliance. Same exact thing the company Symmetry Direct, that you are so proud of does. In fact, this story appears from the state of Wisconsin:


Press Release: State of Wisconsin Department of
Justice/July 16, 2001

Madison -- Attorney General Jim Doyle announced todaythat his office has filed a complaint against a California company, its officers and two sales persons for using misrepresentations and other unlawful practices to sell distributorships for the resale of household products and water treatment devices.

Doyle said that the complaint has been filed in DaneCounty Circuit Court against Trek Alliance, Inc.,Truckee, California. Also named in the state'scomplaint are the firm's officers Harry Flagg, InclineVillage, Nevada, and Richard Vonalvensleben a/k/a/Rich Von, Morgan Hill, California, and two salespersons Joseph Delisle, St. Paul, Minnesota, andTravis Just, Rush City, Minnesota. Trek Alliance is a multilevel marketing company that offers distributorships for consumer products including cleaning products, vitamins, nutritional supplements,
skin care products and water filtration devices. According to the complaint, Trek Alliance made the following deceptive claims to recruit distributors forthe products it offers:misrepresented that clerical and management positionswere available when they were not;failed to disclose that an investment was required to become a distributorship; and
misrepresented income potential for prospective
recruits;failed to disclose that the water treatment devices it promotes could not be lawfully sold in Wisconsin. According to the Department of Justice's complaint, Wisconsin residents have suffered financial loses as a
result of Trek Alliance's practices, and the company will continue to engage in the above violations unless enjoined from doing so. Doyle said that the state is seeking restitution for
Wisconsin residents who were financially harmed by Trek Alliance's practices, civil forfeitures for the alleged violations and an injunction preventing Trek Alliance, its officers and employees from doing business in the state. The complaint was based on an investigation conducted
by the Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection. The case has been assigned to Dane County Circuit Court Judge Stuart A. Schwartz.


Does anyone else find any coincidence here in Trek Alliance and Symmetry? I DO!!! I also want to point out again, that if you do a google on Joe Delisle, he is conveniently deceiving people right across the border in Minnesota now, as he is not allowed to operate in a pyramid scheme in Wisconsin. This is the type of company that Mark is so proud to work for! Again, see Rick Ross's page on Trek Alliance for more information. Mentions of Joe Delisle are all over the place. He is not allowed to operate his pyramid scheme of any kinds in Wisconsin, period. Therefore, his part of Symmetry Direct is inoperable in the State of Wisconsin.

Next I want to address your own statement: "Symmetry products are shipped all over the world." This is great, if the products do what they say they do. Here's my question for you, and it is something that I truly do not understand. If Symmetry Direct were NOT a pyramid scheme, and they were truly a legitimate company, why on God's green earth would they not solely market this product out of their HQ in California, and online, and save millions a year on having to pay their marketing reps? We live in a time and place of Internet sales, NOT MLM. There is no need today for MLM. You can send an email to five people, and have it travel the world in five minutes. However, talking to people on the street, or meeting them at a fake job interview, you are only going to piss people off, and turn them away from what you are talking about by annoying them. Why not let people do a search for "Bible Based Healing Products" or whatever it is you advertise, and let them buy directly from the company and go about thier business? Thereby completely eliminating the middle man! What a genius concept. Why does Symmetry not want their wonderful and fabulous products to compete with those products that are similar? I certainly would want my product too. Imagine how my income would go up, if say, I owned Symmetry products, and sold them out of Walmarts instead of through a pyramid scheme operation.

Why though? Because Symmetry is designed to fail. They are obviously not out there to sell the product, they are out there to RECRUIT! Recruiting is where the money comes from, NOT from the sales of the products. If they truly cared about the product, and cared and what they were supplying to the public, the key ingredients would be customer service, and product marketing. NOT marketing for Marketing! Does that make any sense to anyone?

Let's talk about the math now for Symmetry Direct. Since I am lazy (and have a real job to attend to), I have a wonderful friend who was able to put this all into perspective as follows, based on information that Mark, himself has provided. I also want to point out that my friend has done a LOT of research into this too, including being suckered into this for a short time before coming to their senses.

This is what my friend has come up with:

About the $30 for a new enrollee: when someone joins, they've said that the enroller gets 20% (of $150) for the first month and 10% afterwards (making it $15 per 4-pack autoship). This means 1 package of Genesis, Ultra Vitality or NutraPack earns roughly $3 to $4 in commission. And, the 4-pack is the basis of their pyramid/retail plan. The $30 doesn't account for thepeople above the enroller, which is up to 6 levels (depending on the enroller's location in the pyramid). People at the top get 8% of the sale if the enroller is at level 4-7.

Imagine what you get when $4 is split among 7 people(based on their Compensation Plan). Look at their pyramid plan upside down. 57 cents is based on equal amounts from the $4, but the top three levels of the organization the enroller is in gets a bigger share than those closer to the sale. The above calculation is based on the 4-pack cost of $150 divided by 4, which is $37.50, making the commission $3.75, rounded up to $4. This is for the introductory pack. The monthly cost is $122, divided by 4, makes it $3.05
commission at 10%, making the commission lower on a monthly basis. The actual Basic Pack price is $149. (I used $150 because Mark from Cedar Springs used that amount in RifOffReport. Tha actual per-unit commission is between $3 and $4. But that's not all.

30 points = $30 dollars in Symmetry. This means $3 is split amount 7 people, with people closer to the top getting a larger share than the one who made the sale. The amount is about 42 cents. Genesis is $32.30, and this calculation $3.23 commission, rounded down to $3.30 points is the minimum monthly requirement for purchases. The Policies and Procedures mentions buying Points, not Products, too.

The above calculation assumes that 10% of the price is split among 7 people or 1 person. I don't know the actual method of calculating commissions.

30 points divided by 7 people, assuming $30 is itselfsplit among 7 people, based on monthly autoship, not Basic Pack with business materials:

10% is $3.00
10% is $3.00
10% is $3.00
08% is $2.40
08% is $2.40
08% is $2.40
08% is $2.40

Commissions makes of $18.60 is commissions are splitfrom the total price of a $30 product.

If split from 10% of the price of the product,
commissions make up $1.86.

They say the commission is based on the price of theproduct, not on a certain percentage of the price.

A $30 product minus commissions is $11.40 based on the above math. If commissions were based on 10% of the product price split among 7 people, the actual retail price of the $30 product is about $14. Either way,this isn't good. Add business expenses, it becomes worse.

Based on the above calculations, buying the 4-pack,enrolling 8 per month (as promoted), selling 2 of 4 at retail:

---------> Your monthly autoship
$ - 122.00 4-Pack
$ - 10.00 shipping
$ + 50.00 Retailing 1 from 4-Pack
$ + 50.00 Retailing 1 from 4-Pack
This section has a net loss of $32.00.
Selling 1 more pack would make it $18 profit.
Selling 2 more packs would make it $68 profit.
Using and sampling is unprofitable.

---------> Enrollees's Second month of autoship
$ + 2.40 (at level 7) for autoship of 4-Pack
$ + 2.40 (at level 7) for autoship of 4-Pack
$ + 2.40 (at level 7) for autoship of 4-Pack
$ + 2.40 (at level 7) for autoship of 4-Pack
$ + 2.40 (at level 7) for autoship of 4-Pack
$ + 2.40 (at level 7) for autoship of 4-Pack
$ + 2.40 (at level 7) for autoship of 4-Pack
$ + 2.40 (at level 7) for autoship of 4-Pack
This is 8 enrollees second month.
Total is $19.20.


---------> Enrollees's First month of autoship
$ + 20.00 (at level 7) for enrolling 1 4-Pack
$ + 20.00 (at level 7) for enrolling 1 4-Pack
$ + 20.00 (at level 7) for enrolling 1 4-Pack
$ + 20.00 (at level 7) for enrolling 1 4-Pack
$ + 20.00 (at level 7) for enrolling 1 4-Pack
$ + 20.00 (at level 7) for enrolling 1 4-Pack
$ + 20.00 (at level 7) for enrolling 1 4-Pack
$ + 20.00 (at level 7) for enrolling 1 4-Pack
This is 8 enrollees first month.
Total is $160.

This means:

Retail only, after buying 4-pack:
1. $ - 32.00 for following the plan exactly.
2. $ + 18.00 for selling 3 of 4.
3. $ + 68.00 for selling 4 of 4.
4. Agreement says to follow plan, doing (1) only.
5. LOSS of $32 per month. This is Symmetry Success.
6. $68 is just over half of the purchase price.
7. Return on investment is too low in best case.
8. Best case (3) is $-132 + $+68. $64 is actually
lost.

Second month of auto-ship:
1. $19.20, assuming all 8 are active with 4-Pack.
2. Must enroll 100 people per month just to break
even.
3. Also to overcome retail loss.
4. 8 per month is Symmetry's standard for success.

First month of auto-ship:
1. $160 is above the investment, which is good.
2. Doesn't count business expenses.
3. Enrolling 100 per month is impossible.
4. Enrolling 8 is the monthly standard.

The "residual income" comes from adding 8 people per month and retailing 2 boxes per month, and keeping 8 people per previous month at $122/month.

96 people total per year * $122 in 4-packs (month 2)= $+ 11,712

Same people at month 1, assuming all start in JAN
= $+ 1,920 = $20 * 96 people

Retailing 24 packs (2/month) at $50 = $+ 1,200

Approximately $14,832 per year or $1,236/month.

However, add the autoship:

The autoship at $122/month is $1,464/year.

Income is now $13,368/year or $1,114/month.

$1,114/month is under the poverty level.

Add these monthly expenses:
$- 30.00 RhinoCom (similar to Quixtar's CommuniKate)
$- 300.00 Seeds of Success.
$- 98.00 Successprinting.biz flyers

That doesn't include everything that Seeds of Success sells, or the hotel and transportation.


So Mark, if you don't care to discuss emotionally and ethically what is wrong with the company, perhaps you can share what is wrong with these numbers? (Numbers that YOU provided!) I don't think they're wrong however, after looking them over, and doing the math myself, they are probably dead on. Care to show us your 1099 form from last year?
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#20 Consumer Comment

they tried to get me too!

AUTHOR: Toya - (U.S.A.)

i just got called by them on Monday Dec 18th. i went to it, and it was a waste of time! they were so dishonest in what the job was about and how i got referred. i told them i wasn't sure and didn't want to sign up and they kept trying to pressure me. they wanted to people, after showing the video and the quick seminar, to sign up other people who was interested. i guess that's how they call people. i filed a complaint again them, i don't want other people getting taken advantage of. i didn't pay them any money, but i don't want the other people to get hurt.

Toya,
Chicago
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#21 Consumer Comment

alrighty

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

Amie, I honestly don't believe that the people that I work with call this an employment opportunity. I think that this goes back to what Alex said about people's perception of ads; whereas we could say one thing, and people might hear another.

Why would you say that Tim Woodcox is my god? What makes you think that I even know him? Hopefully that is not another assumption.

Amie, the last thing that I want to do is have people come through the doors to make a quick buck. If someone gets a basic pack, there enroller makes $30. WOW! That is not a big deal. The only reason that we talk about a basic pack is for the new person, who is interested, to make the most amount of money right away, not for our own health. There is far more value in showing someone how to make money rather than making $30 dollars one time. If I show someone how to make money, and to keep making money, my organization grows, and I collect residual checks from that. And can I tell you, residual checks are nicer than a one time 30 bucks in my pocket. I have no interest in putting someone out on their butt with no money, because if they don't succeed, than I dont succeed. If somebody gets started and quits, I hardly make any money. I want to show them how to make the most amount of money as they can. It is a long process, but it is very very stable.

Some people will look at this opportunity as a get rich quick deal. I can assure you that it is not. What we do is not easy and it is not quick, but the persistent will prevail, as in any business. Thanks
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#22 Author of original report

Mark, Mark, Mark

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Here we go again.

Why is it that you are having such a hard time beliving that people are using the world "employment" on the phone? As a lady reported above, TIM WOODCOX himself, your god, is personally doing it! Why does this continually surprise you? You're right!! This is NOT a job opportunity, so why are so many of your colleagues still insisting on calling it that?! I don't get it.

This report has been up for nearly a year now, and they are still pulling the same crap!

They are still deceptively placing ads in the Grand Rapids press, although they have stopped with the influx after several people have complained. Now they are even more deceptive.

Alex- your response was very well-thought out, and very much appreciated. Thank you for your insight, even if I didn't agree with all of it.

The problem with ethics, is that too many people have too broad of a view of what "ethics" are. I believe that ethics include honesty. Symmetry believes that ethics, are to do whatever it takes to get people in the door and make a quick buck, and then leave them on their butt when they aren't making money for you anymore, or investing in their "system."

Regardless, people will see the light.
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#23 Author of original report

Mark, Mark, Mark

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Here we go again.

Why is it that you are having such a hard time beliving that people are using the world "employment" on the phone? As a lady reported above, TIM WOODCOX himself, your god, is personally doing it! Why does this continually surprise you? You're right!! This is NOT a job opportunity, so why are so many of your colleagues still insisting on calling it that?! I don't get it.

This report has been up for nearly a year now, and they are still pulling the same crap!

They are still deceptively placing ads in the Grand Rapids press, although they have stopped with the influx after several people have complained. Now they are even more deceptive.

Alex- your response was very well-thought out, and very much appreciated. Thank you for your insight, even if I didn't agree with all of it.

The problem with ethics, is that too many people have too broad of a view of what "ethics" are. I believe that ethics include honesty. Symmetry believes that ethics, are to do whatever it takes to get people in the door and make a quick buck, and then leave them on their butt when they aren't making money for you anymore, or investing in their "system."

Regardless, people will see the light.
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#24 Author of original report

Mark, Mark, Mark

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Here we go again.

Why is it that you are having such a hard time beliving that people are using the world "employment" on the phone? As a lady reported above, TIM WOODCOX himself, your god, is personally doing it! Why does this continually surprise you? You're right!! This is NOT a job opportunity, so why are so many of your colleagues still insisting on calling it that?! I don't get it.

This report has been up for nearly a year now, and they are still pulling the same crap!

They are still deceptively placing ads in the Grand Rapids press, although they have stopped with the influx after several people have complained. Now they are even more deceptive.

Alex- your response was very well-thought out, and very much appreciated. Thank you for your insight, even if I didn't agree with all of it.

The problem with ethics, is that too many people have too broad of a view of what "ethics" are. I believe that ethics include honesty. Symmetry believes that ethics, are to do whatever it takes to get people in the door and make a quick buck, and then leave them on their butt when they aren't making money for you anymore, or investing in their "system."

Regardless, people will see the light.
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#25 Author of original report

Mark, Mark, Mark

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Here we go again.

Why is it that you are having such a hard time beliving that people are using the world "employment" on the phone? As a lady reported above, TIM WOODCOX himself, your god, is personally doing it! Why does this continually surprise you? You're right!! This is NOT a job opportunity, so why are so many of your colleagues still insisting on calling it that?! I don't get it.

This report has been up for nearly a year now, and they are still pulling the same crap!

They are still deceptively placing ads in the Grand Rapids press, although they have stopped with the influx after several people have complained. Now they are even more deceptive.

Alex- your response was very well-thought out, and very much appreciated. Thank you for your insight, even if I didn't agree with all of it.

The problem with ethics, is that too many people have too broad of a view of what "ethics" are. I believe that ethics include honesty. Symmetry believes that ethics, are to do whatever it takes to get people in the door and make a quick buck, and then leave them on their butt when they aren't making money for you anymore, or investing in their "system."

Regardless, people will see the light.
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#26 UPDATE EX-employee responds

Now we're getting somewhere

AUTHOR: Alex - (U.S.A.)

Thank you Mark for participating in this report. Your responses have definately helped to shape this report to accurately reflect the company as a whole. With this in mind, here's what I've come to conclude.

Symmetry Direct is not a bad company. It works on the principle of Multi-Level Marketing, which is not cheating or illegal in any sense. The problem with this strategy is it's vulnerability to corruption. The independent business owners recruited through Symmetry have, in some ways, too much freedom for their own practices. Some can use the good name of Symmetry to conduct their own businesses in an unethical manner, and can also bend the rules to suit themselves as opposed to what Symmetry lays out.

As far as the recruitment tactics go, many people feel that being called on the cell or personal phones is invasive. Whats more, they get the feeling or idea that this is a "job" oppurtunity, and go to the overview session with false hopes about their prospects. As any business owner, you don't want to waste time on people who aren't interested in what you have to offer. So instead of luring them in under false pretexts, I suggest you tell them what they might be doing, and ask that they come in if they are still curious. This allows for the least pressure on the individual so that when they do come in, they feel confident and more willing to listen and learn from the other owners there. Again, this is not the case with all affiliated location of Symmetry. Some do this already, with no pressure and complete honesty. Some do not, and thats the problem.

When at the overview session, don't let the owners or associates there pressure you. It should be an easy talk that allows you to get the information you want or need from the company. If you feel pressured, step back and think of what you might be getting into if you chose to join a sales team. I'm not saying don't do it, but don't jump on just because you wanted them to stop harrassing you. If you want them to stop, just get up and leave. You can definately comment about this on Rip-Off Report, but don't generalize and talk about Symmetry as a whole doing it, talk about only what you know. Talk only about the location you experienced it at.

Don't look through this report and think "wow, Symmetry is a bad, unethical, and deceptive company" when in fact it is the branches and affiliated business owners that make it so. Good people in this company are there, but the bad sticks out more. The bad qualities or experiences of a company always show 100 times more than the good. This is why companies, such as my own personal business as well as notables such as Besy Buy, have what's called 'Customer Centricity'. Everything the business does should be for the customer. Anything that can be done for the benefit of the customer should be done, and the customer should always be treated with patience and respect. Companies know that your prices or selection don't matter if customer's don't like shopping there. One unhappy customer can turn away 20 potential ones.

I still am angry at the Milwaukee office in my case, as I am sure others in this report are angry at theirs. They have that right, and from the comments here, others should be wary of these locations. But these are specific encounters on specific locations. Not all are like this, and I encourage that as you read this report, you will only be more enlightened on what to look out for when contacted by this sort of company. Don't judge it as a whole. That's unfair. Symmetry's founder can't control or be responsible for what his countless spin-off companies do since each owner is essentially free to do as he/she pleases.

If you are an owner affiliated with Symmetry and the company has worked well for you, congratualtions. But, as Mark shas said over and over again, it's not for everyone. Don't approach your team recruitment with pressure and the idea that you need everyone you can get. That will lead to more reports like this being filed, and more pissed-off people telling everyone about how much you and your company sucks.

The title of this report states "Fraudulant Job Opportunities...Lying Company Ripoff". The oppurtunity is real, sure. Anyone willing to invest time and money into these products and their sales can take that oppurtunity. But it is not a job. So please, don't take it as that and absolutely NEVER make it sound like that. I don't care if you claim you never say "job" or "employment" when you call people. You can still make it sound just like that without ever using those words. Make a distinct seperation so they know it is not a job, and aren't thinking it is when they come in.

I hope this has helped, and I thank Amie for bringing this up to the general public as well as Mark, for commenting and refuting as a Symmetry busniess owner and conducting himself with dignified and respectful responses. Without that, this report would have been only opinions and name-calling rather than actual progress.
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#27 UPDATE EX-employee responds

Now we're getting somewhere

AUTHOR: Alex - (U.S.A.)

Thank you Mark for participating in this report. Your responses have definately helped to shape this report to accurately reflect the company as a whole. With this in mind, here's what I've come to conclude.

Symmetry Direct is not a bad company. It works on the principle of Multi-Level Marketing, which is not cheating or illegal in any sense. The problem with this strategy is it's vulnerability to corruption. The independent business owners recruited through Symmetry have, in some ways, too much freedom for their own practices. Some can use the good name of Symmetry to conduct their own businesses in an unethical manner, and can also bend the rules to suit themselves as opposed to what Symmetry lays out.

As far as the recruitment tactics go, many people feel that being called on the cell or personal phones is invasive. Whats more, they get the feeling or idea that this is a "job" oppurtunity, and go to the overview session with false hopes about their prospects. As any business owner, you don't want to waste time on people who aren't interested in what you have to offer. So instead of luring them in under false pretexts, I suggest you tell them what they might be doing, and ask that they come in if they are still curious. This allows for the least pressure on the individual so that when they do come in, they feel confident and more willing to listen and learn from the other owners there. Again, this is not the case with all affiliated location of Symmetry. Some do this already, with no pressure and complete honesty. Some do not, and thats the problem.

When at the overview session, don't let the owners or associates there pressure you. It should be an easy talk that allows you to get the information you want or need from the company. If you feel pressured, step back and think of what you might be getting into if you chose to join a sales team. I'm not saying don't do it, but don't jump on just because you wanted them to stop harrassing you. If you want them to stop, just get up and leave. You can definately comment about this on Rip-Off Report, but don't generalize and talk about Symmetry as a whole doing it, talk about only what you know. Talk only about the location you experienced it at.

Don't look through this report and think "wow, Symmetry is a bad, unethical, and deceptive company" when in fact it is the branches and affiliated business owners that make it so. Good people in this company are there, but the bad sticks out more. The bad qualities or experiences of a company always show 100 times more than the good. This is why companies, such as my own personal business as well as notables such as Besy Buy, have what's called 'Customer Centricity'. Everything the business does should be for the customer. Anything that can be done for the benefit of the customer should be done, and the customer should always be treated with patience and respect. Companies know that your prices or selection don't matter if customer's don't like shopping there. One unhappy customer can turn away 20 potential ones.

I still am angry at the Milwaukee office in my case, as I am sure others in this report are angry at theirs. They have that right, and from the comments here, others should be wary of these locations. But these are specific encounters on specific locations. Not all are like this, and I encourage that as you read this report, you will only be more enlightened on what to look out for when contacted by this sort of company. Don't judge it as a whole. That's unfair. Symmetry's founder can't control or be responsible for what his countless spin-off companies do since each owner is essentially free to do as he/she pleases.

If you are an owner affiliated with Symmetry and the company has worked well for you, congratualtions. But, as Mark shas said over and over again, it's not for everyone. Don't approach your team recruitment with pressure and the idea that you need everyone you can get. That will lead to more reports like this being filed, and more pissed-off people telling everyone about how much you and your company sucks.

The title of this report states "Fraudulant Job Opportunities...Lying Company Ripoff". The oppurtunity is real, sure. Anyone willing to invest time and money into these products and their sales can take that oppurtunity. But it is not a job. So please, don't take it as that and absolutely NEVER make it sound like that. I don't care if you claim you never say "job" or "employment" when you call people. You can still make it sound just like that without ever using those words. Make a distinct seperation so they know it is not a job, and aren't thinking it is when they come in.

I hope this has helped, and I thank Amie for bringing this up to the general public as well as Mark, for commenting and refuting as a Symmetry busniess owner and conducting himself with dignified and respectful responses. Without that, this report would have been only opinions and name-calling rather than actual progress.
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#28 UPDATE EX-employee responds

Now we're getting somewhere

AUTHOR: Alex - (U.S.A.)

Thank you Mark for participating in this report. Your responses have definately helped to shape this report to accurately reflect the company as a whole. With this in mind, here's what I've come to conclude.

Symmetry Direct is not a bad company. It works on the principle of Multi-Level Marketing, which is not cheating or illegal in any sense. The problem with this strategy is it's vulnerability to corruption. The independent business owners recruited through Symmetry have, in some ways, too much freedom for their own practices. Some can use the good name of Symmetry to conduct their own businesses in an unethical manner, and can also bend the rules to suit themselves as opposed to what Symmetry lays out.

As far as the recruitment tactics go, many people feel that being called on the cell or personal phones is invasive. Whats more, they get the feeling or idea that this is a "job" oppurtunity, and go to the overview session with false hopes about their prospects. As any business owner, you don't want to waste time on people who aren't interested in what you have to offer. So instead of luring them in under false pretexts, I suggest you tell them what they might be doing, and ask that they come in if they are still curious. This allows for the least pressure on the individual so that when they do come in, they feel confident and more willing to listen and learn from the other owners there. Again, this is not the case with all affiliated location of Symmetry. Some do this already, with no pressure and complete honesty. Some do not, and thats the problem.

When at the overview session, don't let the owners or associates there pressure you. It should be an easy talk that allows you to get the information you want or need from the company. If you feel pressured, step back and think of what you might be getting into if you chose to join a sales team. I'm not saying don't do it, but don't jump on just because you wanted them to stop harrassing you. If you want them to stop, just get up and leave. You can definately comment about this on Rip-Off Report, but don't generalize and talk about Symmetry as a whole doing it, talk about only what you know. Talk only about the location you experienced it at.

Don't look through this report and think "wow, Symmetry is a bad, unethical, and deceptive company" when in fact it is the branches and affiliated business owners that make it so. Good people in this company are there, but the bad sticks out more. The bad qualities or experiences of a company always show 100 times more than the good. This is why companies, such as my own personal business as well as notables such as Besy Buy, have what's called 'Customer Centricity'. Everything the business does should be for the customer. Anything that can be done for the benefit of the customer should be done, and the customer should always be treated with patience and respect. Companies know that your prices or selection don't matter if customer's don't like shopping there. One unhappy customer can turn away 20 potential ones.

I still am angry at the Milwaukee office in my case, as I am sure others in this report are angry at theirs. They have that right, and from the comments here, others should be wary of these locations. But these are specific encounters on specific locations. Not all are like this, and I encourage that as you read this report, you will only be more enlightened on what to look out for when contacted by this sort of company. Don't judge it as a whole. That's unfair. Symmetry's founder can't control or be responsible for what his countless spin-off companies do since each owner is essentially free to do as he/she pleases.

If you are an owner affiliated with Symmetry and the company has worked well for you, congratualtions. But, as Mark shas said over and over again, it's not for everyone. Don't approach your team recruitment with pressure and the idea that you need everyone you can get. That will lead to more reports like this being filed, and more pissed-off people telling everyone about how much you and your company sucks.

The title of this report states "Fraudulant Job Opportunities...Lying Company Ripoff". The oppurtunity is real, sure. Anyone willing to invest time and money into these products and their sales can take that oppurtunity. But it is not a job. So please, don't take it as that and absolutely NEVER make it sound like that. I don't care if you claim you never say "job" or "employment" when you call people. You can still make it sound just like that without ever using those words. Make a distinct seperation so they know it is not a job, and aren't thinking it is when they come in.

I hope this has helped, and I thank Amie for bringing this up to the general public as well as Mark, for commenting and refuting as a Symmetry busniess owner and conducting himself with dignified and respectful responses. Without that, this report would have been only opinions and name-calling rather than actual progress.
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#29 Consumer Comment

very close

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

Hey Alex, I must say that you have to be the most well-spoken/educated person that has left a post against this company and/or the people that work with it. I mean that.

Are you absolutely positive that the word "employment" was mentioned? The reason that I ask is that since I have been involved with this company, the words "employment" and "job" are uncomfortable for me to say, much less promote to someone else on the phone; and I know that many other people in this business are the same way. Personally, I would be surprised if someone that has been around for longer than 2 months in the business would say that on the phone to a potential business partner. Obviously I wasn't there to hear it first hand, but that is my opinion.

One thing that must be considered. Anyone that starts in this business can outearn the person that enrolled them or anyone else in their upline.

I will elaborate. Alex, you mentioned somewhere along the line the you get paid 10% the first three levels, and 8% for everything below that. That is true to an extent, you get paid 8% on the 4 levels following your first 3, which is a total of 7 levels of business that you earn on. My point of this is: You will always have business that your enroller or upline can't earn on, because it is out of their reach. The only way that multi-level (or this company) would be unethical is if someone at the top collected on every level down as far as it goes. That is the only way.

I know that we have mentioned this time and time again, but as far as the pyramid structure goes, it is the same with every business; it is the same structure that our government is made up with; the same structure that religion (the church) is based on; etc. Any architect will tell you that the pyramid is the strongest formation known to man. I didn't say that because I like geometry, I said that because that is the strongest way to generate income as well. Your boss knows it. That is why they are at the top of their pyramid. Show me one employee that makes more than their boss. It doesn't happen.

As far as the accusation that we dont work for our money; I definitely resent that. The people that build this business are the hardest working people that I have ever met. Building this business is the hardest thing that I have ever done. I think it is only fair that people who work as hard as we do should benefit with things such as early retirement and residual checks. The money that he (the gentleman you spoke with) made, when he was laid up in the hospital, was completely and 100% earned. Just like if Bill Gates got sick right now, and went to the hospital, I am pretty sure that he might still make some money without him doing anything. Same concept.

Down to the Seeds of Success issue. The workshops themselves are held frequently throughout the year, but certain workshops are only done annually. That might have been where there was a little confusion. Plus, if the dates for the workshop were exactly two weeks after the overviews, we would never be able to have workshops because we keep having overviews.

A little FYI; I have been to 3 Seeds of Success Workshops in Milwaukee, WI; but a lot of the time they are held in Chicago, or St. Louis, or many other locations. They pick out the location based on the size of the group projected to attend, and where we can get the best rates on rooms.

That is accurate that our only Wisconsin office, Milwaukee, has been open for 6 months or so. They havent moved or changed name to my knowledge. The office space that they are using is probably leased, so I doubt the owner of the building wants the name on the building. Besides, there is nothing to hide seeing as though we tell you the name of the office on the phone.

On another note, as fas the Basic Pack is concerned. It makes a lot of sense to me for the simple fact that the products you get are your products. If the product we were to provide you with products to go out and sell for us, then we would be your boss. Why would you want to take my products, sell them, and then return the profits to me, less your commissions? That would be a job. Alex, you yourself said that this is a business, not employment. Example, if you owned a shoe store, you would buy shoes from the manufacturer, and then sell them: You will then make money based on your mark-up. You dont get shoes from the manufacturer and then give back what you don't sell. That would be insane.

The only reason that it may feel pushy at the end of the overview is that if I could get someone, that I know would be good at this, to look past a measly $160 to see that there is a different way to make money rather than punching in and punching our for the rest of their lives, that would be worth it. If there is one thing that I know about this business, it is the fact that the only way for me to get the financial results that I am looking for, is to help other people get the financial results that they are looking for, and to help countless others with their health.

In closing. In my personal experience, it took my last dime to get my basic pack and attend a workshop, but in retrospect, that created the value in me making this work. I push harder with my back against the wall. Average people might spend some money to get started, and then instead of trying to make it work, they blame someone else for it not working. I am thankful everyday that I did what I did.

It may not be for you, it is definitely not for everyone. If it were for everyone, this Rip-off Report wouldn't exist. I guess that goes back to blaming someone else for it not working. Thanks.
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#30 UPDATE EX-employee responds

Symmetry's "Hiring" Strategy

AUTHOR: Alex - (U.S.A.)

I was recently involved with Symmetry, and soon recognized it as a fraudulant scheme. I was called on my personal unlisted phone by an individual claiming to offer me "full or part-time employment." As many of you have stated, they don't offer a job. Well, 'employment' implies job or a work-related activity for the business. Becoming a distributor or marketer of their product, and working off commission, is not for the business. Therefore, they cannot say they offer 'employment' since you are, as they so readily claim, working for yourself, "becoming your own boss" as the Symmetry overview boasts. They can say it's a 'full or part-time 'oppurtunity'', but not 'employment'.

This is dishonest and extremely decieving. the Merriam-Webster Dictionary cleary defines 'employment as "an activity or service performed for another".

When the 'owners' decribe the business to you, they show the scheme of how you acquire 'teams', and how you get a certain percentage of each team level's sales. You get, say 10% for the person you recruit, the people they recruit, and the people they recruit, and then 8% or everyone farther down on the totem pole. They even dray you a PYRAMID of teams, showing how the person on the top can get paid from the underling's percentages with zero work and zero product being transferred between the two. As it has been clearly stated here, the product is shipped directly to you, not to your work location. This is done to allow the company to account for you as a consumer or customer of their product, not an employee or sales representative. Now, if this exact system were to exist WITHOUT the percentage of profit going up the totem pole, it would be legitimate. It would also encourage those selling to product to simply run a better sales business as opposed to grabbing telemarketing tactics for acquiring phone numbers to get misled individuals to do their work for them.

I talked personally with the location's owner in Milwaukee, WI about what I could do if I didn't have any time, but might in the future. He continually hit on the fact that if I do a little work, I would get the residual percentage income from others that I could recruit into my team, even if I didn't do anything for months at a time. He boasted how during a spleen operation last year, he had 3 or 4 checks waiting for him in his PO Box even though he was laid-up in the hospital for weeks. This is how pyramid schemes exist, and why people create them. They can get money for doing nothing. As the owner stated in his own words, "You can work part-time to be permanently lazy". Show me how work ethics play fair here.

Symmetry also prides itself on how the founder has written the ethical practices for the company in this field. I don't doubt this, and in fact I would believe him to be an ethical individual if someone told me as such. However, the business below him (that is unregulated due to it's nature) has grown corrupt, and to mask this the owners rely heavily on the founder's ethical standards, using it as leverage to convince you this is legal. If you applied at, say, Best Buy, they would take little if no time convincing you they have high ethical standards because they know and you know that Best Buy is a legitimate retail business. Symmetry is not.

When a group comes in to a Symmetry or affiliate's office for their 'overview', or 'interview' as we tell them on the phone, we tell them of the 'Seeds for Success' conference that will be held yearly, but the dates will always be 2 weekends from the overview date. A potential 'business owner' above stated that she went to an overview conference in Chicago, and was told the 'Seeds for Success' location was to be Milwaukee. Milwaukee, my region that I live and conduct legitimate businesses in, has never hosted any Seeds for Success 'workshops' or 'conferences'. In fact, Symmetry of Milwaukee sends it's new recruits to Chicago for the 'Seeds for Success' workshop every time. They also claim this workshop to cost $300, but a special internet sign-up rate of only $175. Again, you're paying out immediately before even seeing about the business. They also pressure you to 'sign up today', that there's 'no time to waste'. If you don't do it then, you won't make money. No, I'm not summarizing that, they blatantly told us that.

Symmetry has only had a presence in the state of Wisconsin for 6 months. At least under it's current name. We no longer put the specific business name on the outside of our office due to the fact that we constantly changed it. But the address and phone numbers haven't. Also, the 'business owners' at this location have not changed. True, a few new ones unfortunately came on board and some thankfully left, but the bulk has remained unchanged.

Symmetry also pressures you into buying their 'basic package' or similar item that same day. They want you to buy this and sell it on your own, or even keep it for yourself. Nothing wrong with this at all. In fact, if you are going to sell something you should know what you're selling. But pressuring to purchase in bulk beforehand is unethical. Ethical buisinesses sign you on a contract for sales, a contract which roughly states that you are financially responsible to pay back that which you sell. They give you the product, you sell it and return the sale amounts to them. This way, it's the company selling to the consumers, not the company selling to you and you being stuck in the hole until you sell it.

I agree that yes, you should attend their 'overview' session if you are curious, but beware. Should you decide by the end of the presentation that you do not want to do this, they will pressure you from all sides. They will ask you if you enjoy working hourly, if you want more money, anything that draws you in. Should the individual you are talking to feel like they are losing you, he or she will call over anyone unoccupied to surround you and ask you why and how you can't do it. One young man, who was only 19 and in college, was encouraged to borrow all the needed money from his parents to get the basic pack and attend the Seeds for Success workshop.

He continued to state, as he had from the beginning, that he was in no position financially or otherwise to do this. When he said this to the location owner, the owner asked if he had any credit cards. They didn't care how that young man felt, they just wanted his money. They also tried to set up another appointment to discuss the business further, which again I have no opposition to, however when he explained to us his hectic and busy schedule, the owner suggested he find a way to SKIP A COLLEGE CLASS to come in and talk with them. Persuaing a college individual to skip a class for a phishy business deal is definately unethical. After participating in this 'overview' day, I immediately returned all my product, got my money refunded, and left the business completely. I still lost about $300, but was lucky since I never spent the money on the 'Seeds for Success' workshops. It could have been much worse.

One post comments that Donald Trump said he would use MLM to get his fortune back if he ever lost it. You should realize that Trump is a financial genious, and that he understands how easy it is to rip people off in that sort of business and make a fortune fast for himself, leaving the lower levels in the dust. That comment exemplifies exactly how destructive that sort of business is.

I am not attacking MLM businesses as a whole, just Symmetry Direct, Majestic Innovations, and the other affiliated offices. Their high-pressure tactics force people into unfavorable situations, preying on the weakness of the human mind to peer pressure to get individuals to enter into agreements and fork over cash they are not prepared to lose or spend, and force them into situations they do not agree to.

Lastly, if any company claims to have reached you through a reference, you have a legal right to information on that reference.
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#31 UPDATE Employee

to tell you the truth

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

Jason, first of all, did you ask the person you talked to how to spell Symmetry, or did you just assume that you could figure out how to spell Symmetry all by yourself? How could you say that someone was trying to keep you from finding information about the company when he told you the name of the company? That doesn't make sense.

Now down to the real issue. I personally have way more customers than I do business partners. Everyone I know in this company is the same way. Did the guy you talk to say that all he did was "sell pills" to people who were interested in the business? Or did you make another one of your "educated" assumptions about what we do? Apparently you know more about this company than anyone else, seeing as though you are putting up posts about how we run our businesses.

You must have done some serious research in that 5 minutes you spent on the phone. Well, I have to give you some credit, you did spend a good deal of time figuring out how to spell the name first. Props to you. To the next issue. You stated: ...everyone involved in this company who condones its actions claimes that "since you arent part of the business you must have all of your facts messed up, however, everyone in the business must strangely have all of the answers..." Well, this may be coming out of left field, but wouldn't the people who actually build the business know more about the business that they are building than someone who writes posts on Rip-Off Report because they don't even have ambiton enough to give it a try. I could be wrong though. I like this one too: "they ask for money in order for information on how to get more people to get you more money." Are you kidding me? We ask you for money to get you information on how to get more people to get you more money???

First of all, you don't give US money. You buy products to start your own business. That is all. You even said: "When you start a legitimate business you invest time and money at the beginning to provide actual products to people who purchase those items." That is what we do. You get products that you can use, sample, and sell if you choose to. That is wierd, do you mean that a "real" business doesn't use, sample, or sell any products? I guess that makes sense. Tell me this Jason, in your job right now, (assuming that you have one because of all your business sense) did your boss hire you so that he wouldn't make money? No way!

The second you cost more to your boss than you are making him/her, you are gone. So in "real" business, there are no products to use, sample, and sell; and he/she doesn't hire you to expand there organization. OK. Last but certainly not least. There is no way that there will ever be a last person on this earth with no opportunity to do what has been done before him/her. People are born and people die every day.

Besides, there are people who will never get it, and instead of marketing something, they will be buying it. Bottome line, unless you just worded you message very, very poorly, I have to think that you pretty much know nothing about business. Again though, I could be wrong. Good luck with getting a job though. If you start with a restaurant, you might only have to spend $100 on 2 uniforms and shoes. Or maybe you can start with a brand name clothing store, you might only spend $150 on their clothes, because you have to wear them. Or this one, you could become an engineer; that only costs about $40,000 and 2 years of your life in college for your potential employer to look at you. Your right though, $159 is a lot of money to start your own enterprise. Give me a break.
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#32 Consumer Comment

Simply amazing

AUTHOR: Jason - (U.S.A.)

today I got a call from a person by the name of Louis working at Symmetry or however you want to spell it. obviously it is spelt this way so that any research to be done on this company would be hard to come by since by only hearing the name assumed it was spelt semetry (yeah thats why they spelt it symmetry harder to find reports like this one.)

Anyways, I didn't remember calling anyone from any company by this name I decided to ask a few questions and soon afterwards it started to sound familiar.. sounds just like team of destiny and all of those similar pyramid schemes, so I asked him if it was like team of destiny to which he replied "what is that?" assuming that the guy wasnt lieing about this "job opprunity" I decided to ask questions about the company I asked him what they did and he responded that they "help people with fitness" very shady considering they actually sell pills to their own employees and do nothing to help people with fitness at all, the way the guy on the phone was talking he made it sound like I would be telling other people about fitness secrets, not trying to sell pills to other people who first needed to sign up to this business. One thing that ceases to amaze me about all of the postings I have read so far is that everyone involved in this company who condones its actions claimes that "since you arent part of the business you must have all of your facts messed up, however, everyone in the business must strangely have all of the answers... " that is pretty much what they are all hinting at.

I feel that this company is (although nobody involved in it will tell you) part of a pyramid scheme that instead of simply asking for money to get information about how to get more money, they ask for money in order for information on how to get more people to get you more money. Basically they added a step so that it wouldn't classify as the basic definition of a pyramid scheme but that does not change the fact that it is still a pyramid scheme.

One major fact remains, the people involved in this "business" are un truthfull, un ethical, unprovessional and are cheating people out of money. In any situation where you pay money to get more money from another person in time is wrong. When you start a legitimate business you invest time and money at the beginning to provide actual products to people who purchase those items.

this kind of business they are running at Symmetry is spending money in the beginning to get products to help you get someone else to do the same thing untill eventually either everyone has heard of this company and decides they dont want to partake in it or are already involved in it themselves in which case all of the people "on the bottom" who just paid the 200$ to sign up are all screwed out of their money because they can not find someone to sell their "sales pitch" to (which is mroe of a pyramid scam pitch).

It realy makes sense, the whole truth of the matter is that whoever is the very last person to sign up is already out 200$ and the only hopes to make any money is to sign up more people but what happens when there is nobody left? yeah. thats what i thought.
-Jay-
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#33 Consumer Comment

Wow

AUTHOR: Lisa - (U.S.A.)

Hopefully everyone reading AND writing on this site knows that anyone can say anything on this site. There is NO WAY to know who is telling the truth. Its is very easy for someone to exagerate stories to make them sound better. I know who Rachel is and who Nick is in that last post. I watched Nick try to help her. I saw him with my own eyes trying to call her to tell her how to stop her order and get her refund. It is really hard to help someone who wont answer the phone.

I know how SIMPLE it is to stop an order with this compnay. The phone number is available to everyone. They email AND call every sinlge customer and business partner when they are new to make sure they got their stuff and to see if they have any quesitons. Its way way way easier than even changing your cell phone plan or cancelling your cell phone. But you gotta call or write the company itself to cancel.

Heck with cell phones you can't even to that without a penalty!!! Symmetry will let you stop an order when ever. Call and ask them. Rachel you are confused. Don't blame Nick. Pick up your phone and call the company and SAY......I want to cancel my autoship and send my stuff back for a refund. They will be glad to help. They ke word is that its and autoship.

I know you knew that cuz I talked to you when we both got started around the same time. Nick helped me out a lot. Maybe some people just have information go in on ear and out the other. Why don't you do a google search on this website. See what pops up!!!! Wow, lots of people saying bad stuff. Well, who is trlling the truth and who is telling a big story to sound dramatic. I am a single 19 year old dad. Everything works great for me!!! My family loves the products. Even my grandma now does the business part time. It didn't caost any of us $400.
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#34 UPDATE EX-employee responds

Poor Business

AUTHOR: Rachel - (U.S.A.)

I am a 20 year old single mother, who like many others was desperatley looking for a job. I was looking through the paper and found an ad for a fitness place hiring part/full time. I called and left a message saying I was interested. Nick called me back to set up an "interview", he told me to dress nice and bring a resume. I asked him on the phone if i would be paid hourly, and he said "sort of, more on commission". So i go to the "interview" and to my dismay it seems as if it is a pyramid. For some reason I was blinded by the light at the top of the pyramid because they make it sound so attractive, I signed up. It cost me over four hundred dollars just to join!!

So finally I got to my senses and cancelled my membership and sent back the products. I got refunded, and then a few weeks later I got sent another package from symmetry. They billed $150 to my credit card without my confirmation. And I called several times and emailed with out any one getting back to me. A few weeks went by and i got another package sent to my house from symmetry or whoever because they don't even use a company name on the package...wonder why??!

And i got charged another $150 on my credit card. I called again with no response!!The charges put my credit card over the limit and is ruining my good credit because i refuse to pay for something i cancelled several times.
So my advice to anyone looking in to this company is get out before you get screwed!!
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#35 UPDATE EX-employee responds

Just like other businesses

AUTHOR: Kristen - (U.S.A.)

Hi Amie,
I used to work for Symmetry Direct (in Ohio). I just wanted to share with you some insight...I did skip some of the other entries, so I apologize if some of this is repeat, but I also hope some of this gives you just a little more perspective (and maybe makes you feel a little better about your battle).

First of all, YES, they do get names from all sorts of places: referrals, phone books, college directories, and (basically) whatever else they can get thier hands on for free...including any old call sheets (from people who refer other people, or sheets of leads that others have written out for themselves) when business partners leave either the office or the company (yes, the remaining "partners" go through the desks of those who leave and "scavenge" their old call lists). So, this is one of the (many) reasons you may have been called so many times (and NO, I am NOT justifying it!! This is, actually, one of the many reasons I quit...I HATED calling people who didn't want to talk to me!). Oh, and YES, they do place ads in the local papers and hope you call in...oh, and flyers. They stick flyers everywhere.

Second, I do NOT believe that this company is inherently evil. I believe that the founders of the company had nothing but good intentions for it...and still do. They work very hard to make some of the best products on the market and make resources available to all of their business partners. However, there is one individual who has (in my opinion) cast a dark shadow over the Midwest's business: Mr. Joe DeLisle. From my experience, he is money-hungry and bullies people into joining--and persisting--in Symmetry. He is condescending. He will tell you that you are "stupid" if you don't do things his way (please don't dispute this with me, current buisiness partners--I've been to MANY SOS's), and he is the person who--surprise, surprise--sits at the "top" of the Symmetry ladder IN THE MIDWEST. In fact, Mr. DeLisle did NOT work his way to the top, though he'd like everyone to believe he did. He began in a company called Trek. They sold household products (cleaner, shampoo, etc.). Trek went under. He did some research, took his "network" underneath him, and moved to Symmetry; they all followed, signing up underneath him. Now, he is on the top--and making all of the money--and they are doing all of the work. In fact, at one point (long after I had quit "the business") I wanted to order some products. I called the main office, and told them that, under no circumstances, did I want to be signed up under ANYONE in the Midwest, and my reasoning behind it. They enrolled me under a rep in California, instead.

Third. Symmetry has reps all over the country and all over the world who are committed to selling quality products and not harassing others--so please don't discredit the entire company because of a few "bad apples" (who, again, I do NOT support, just want to exemplify the fact that I believe that, deep in Symmetry's--as a company--heart are good intentions).

Finally, my reference to "just like other businesses." Yes, it IS network marketing. However, as was pointed out earlier, there is a product exchange, so it's not, technically, a "scam." YES, there ARE liars and cheats (god knows I met a LOT of them while I was "in the business"), but not everyone who works for Symmetry is intent on scamming people. YES, it can be very hard to make money...and you can spend a LOT of money trying to make money that you will never see back; I did. Additionally, the comment about corporations (as, structurally, like pyramids) is right on...all businesses survive by the lower tiers (yes, tiers) making money for the higher-ups...it's just life.

So, my point is, I am really sorry you had a bad experience with Symmetry. Mine was bittersweet. I made a couple of really good friends (who I still talk with to this day--more than 2 years after quitting the business)...I met a LOT of jerks, liars, and generally bad people. The products were good (and no, you don't have to pay $159+ to start up; you can actually have a monthly shipment of just the multivitamin--about $32--to remain an active business partner/customer--they just don't tell you that ;) ). I spent a LOT of money and time. But I learned a LOT of really great lessons (none of which have to do with scamming people!).

I hope this helped at least a little. Take care, Amie!
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#36 Author of original report

You're welcome Molly

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Molly!

Thank you for sharing your story about how you were contacted by "THE" Tim Woodcox.... the same Tim Woodcox who is claiming that they "don't" offer "employment" and that they are an "honest and ethical" company.

This is certainly NOT an employment opportunity, and there is nothing more here than a scam!

I am so glad that I was able to help another person not be bothered by this company, and to see their true lights shine through.

Good luck with your job search though! I hope something amazing comes through for you!
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#37 Consumer Comment

Contacted Today

AUTHOR: Molly - (U.S.A.)

Wow, so I found this entire rip off report by accident today when I decided to do a search on the company I was contacted by just this morning.

Tim Woodcox was the person who phoned me and asked if I was looking for full or part time employment. I said yes (I have painfully been looking for work for over a month now). He stated he was calling from a company called "Symmetry" and that it deals with Nutrition. Having worked in Nutrition and it being a strong interest of mine, I shared that information with him and he said that I just might be right for the job.

He told me that it starts with a group interview to show me how their company works and that afterwards he would then speak with me one on one.

He also informed me that I was to dress business casual and be a few minutes early. Having never heard of this place, I did the google search only to find Amie's entry.

After reading Amie's experience and reading all the rebuttals and comments added... I am first, thankful to Amie for saying something.

Pyramid Scheme or not, I don't really care. What bothers me is that it was misleading. In no way would I ever have agreed to an 'interview' if I knew this was a commission based job or that I would be first buying from them to sell vitamins to people. I was looking for a job that I went to work at 8 hours a day, 5 days a week and then got a paycheck every 1-2 weeks.

When I asked Tim how he heard of me, he said that he wasn't entirely sure because the "papers weren't with him" but said that I should be flattered because they only call people based off referrals. No one I know referred me.

Needless to say, I will not be attending the interview, because I have no interest in working on commission.
I'm a bit embarassed that I actually got excited about a job interview when they have been hard to come by.
Thank you Amie for sharing your experience. It saves me time and money driving to a pointless 'interview'. Looks like you had to take the brunt of a lot of needless name-calling.
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#38 UPDATE Employee

An Inside View

AUTHOR: James - (U.S.A.)

Hi, I've worked with Symmetry in Grand Rapids, and I just have some information that might help everyone.

I guess anyone who believes it is a "pyramid scheme" has already made up their mind about this style of business, which is a common misconception. "Pyramid schemes", or money pyramids, are in fact completely illegal. They work by someone claiming they can show you how to make, for example, $10,000, but first you have to give them $1,000. After you pay, they basically just explain to you how to convince 10 other people to give you $1,000 by saying you'll show them how to make $10,000. The key here is that their is no good or product being exchanged, just money. This is the kind of business that is truly rediculous. But notice how you've contacted the Better Business Bureau. They have definately reviewed Mr. Tim Woodcox and Symmetry's business and seen that it not at all a type of "pyramid scheme", and that's why their business continues on. It's simply another direct sales, or network marketing company.

Yet I know why people think "pryamid scheme" when they see this company. It's because you have to be, in essence, a customer to work with the company. I don't see why this is a big deal, and actually makes sense in the way the company operates (but then again I work with the company, so I wouldn't, right?). If you don't like the idea of having to be a customer, just don't join. It's that simple. When I joined, I knew I'd be purchasing and consuming the product monthly, made well aware by the representative showing me the company. I guess I don't know what else to say to that one. If you don't like the idea, don't do it. But I don't think it's fair to complain that someone gave you a choice.

One thing I can somewhat sympathize with someone one this is the recruitment tactics that are used. But some things must still be cleared up hear. First, do not bother to take your name off of Monster.com or any other job finding website or service. In all my time with the company, I nor anyone I know of or have worked with have ever used that site or any site like it to find people. I believe that service costs money for the employers to find people, and independent representatives of this company prefer to use methods that don't cost money. Some methods that have been used are looking through a phone book, looking through college online people finders, randomly calling numbers of nearby area codes, calling local business, and getting referal sheets of people who have come through the office. The reason they asked you if you were still looking for work is because that's what they ask everyone they call. There is literally a script that they use when recruiting on the phone. Here's where it gets into stuff that I don't particularly like about the recruiting process. Unless they got a referal sheet from someone who went through the office, they honestly have no idea whether or not you are actually still, or ever was, looking for work. Usually they are calling someone they know nothing about, so to maximize their chance of getting someone to check out the business, they say the same thing to everyone:

"Hi (name), I work with a company that just opened up in the (city) area, and we just had your name referred to us as someone who would be a good fit with our company for part-time or full-time work opportunities, so I was wondering if you were keeping your work options open?" or "still looking for work?"

Some key things here. First, notice the word "job" is not used. This is because being an independent distributor is not an hourly or salaried position, which is what part of a jobs definition is (in a legal sense). I and others have accidently called it a job before, but I think this is mostly a mistake new people make, as after I made the mistake once, the person next to me politely reminded me not to use the word "job", and instead use "work". The same goes for "employment", another no-no. The whole new company thing is debateable. It kind of is, because when the original person left, Tim started his own business in the same place just for convenience sake (it's already set up how he needs it.) Sometimes offices like this do get name changes, but that could be for a number of reasons. I was their once when the name was changed, and it was just because the previous name actually became a copyrighted name for another company. (I suggested the new name be Panda Inc., but that was deemed too "unprofessional" and "rediculous").

But no matter how it's worded, I know that fact that one is being called at all can be annoying enough. But keep in mind that with so many different new people coming into the office, it can't be helped that you might be called more than once. More than 10 is quite a bit, but I can almost guarantee that no one would call you on purpose if they knew you had such a dislike for the company: it'd be a waste of their time they could use to call someone who might be interested. Besides, many people do appreciate being called, and although the business is not for everyone, I know people who it has really helped make a reliable income for them.

I think someone mentioned about renting workspace in the office. This is something that confused me at first, but now I understand. One must first understand that every single distributor is legally his or hers own business. Symmetry does make, house, and ship the products, but it is the distributor's responsibility to pay for any marketing, advertising, or business tools they wish to use. That is why many people run these types of businesses out of their homes, so they can reduce their business overhead. Someone in the midwest, however, started opening offices for the distributors to use and benefit from. But, when a distributor opens up his or her own office, the office is owned by him or her, not Symmetry. So this puts all the financial burdens of leasing an entire office onto one independent person. The way the lease-holder of the office can alleviate some of these costs is by renting out space within the office to other representatives looking to build their own space. Mr. Tim Woodcox is the lease-holder in Grand Rapids. The office I worked in had room for around 12-18 people, and there weren't always someone on every desk. I realized that some months Tim probably lost money on the office and some months he gained, but he certainly wasn't renting out space to make a profit, he just did it because it was necessary to keep the office running. If there was extra money at the end of the month (after he had to pay for computer ink, paper, and other supplies everyone was free to use), he'd give it out as a bonus to whoever performed the best that month (I won this my first month and had a $100 dinner at Judson's Steakhouse downtown. Delicious and free.) In fact, when I first came to the office and was offered a spot at a desk, I was essentially given a 1/3 discount for 3 months, which was supposed to allow me to build my business enough to cover my expenses after I had to start paying regular rent.
But make no mistake, I was never forced to get on a desk. Yet I would be stupid not to, as running my business with the desk and the rest of the people in the office, including Tim, supporting me was definately easier than figuring things out on my own. I know all the other deskholders hold similar feelings, or they wouldn't be on a desk.

About the books and other "success" materials that many distributors are encouraged to buy, all of the books I've seen and some purchased are completely third party. This means the company makes no money when a book is purchased. Besides, I've found the books to be useful in all aspects of life anyways. For instance, I'm in a band, and when I read I can just replace the word "busines" with "band", and it's really helped the success of my band. And once again, no one is forcing anyone to buy the books. Their are product catalogs and such the distributors can order from Symmety, but only the cost to make the products is paid; the company is not reaping a profit from these small items. And you don't have to get them if you don't want to.

In general, my advice to someone looking at a company is this: If you don't like it, don't do it. The minute you sign up, you are purchasing product from Symmetry, but are also given the opportunity to make a lot of money, and it becomes your responsibility to ensure your success. The company, office, and others will help with what they can, but as the saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink". There have been months where I really sucked, and made very little. But I'm not blaming anyone but myself for those months, because that's when I didn't do any work. In a worst case scenario, you can send back you're starter kit and get a full refund within the first 120 days. When I first started out, after a day of signing on I freaked out and had the guy who signed me up stop my shipment. Luckily it was a weekend. Then a couple days later I saw the money I spent back in my checking when I checked online. This made me realize that I could try the business for almost 4 months, and then if I wanted, get a full refund (even on empty packages of stuff I've already used). It works just like being a customer. So in my opinion, there is no excuse for anyone who joins Symmetry and loses money. You either try it out and it works for you so you stick with it, or it doesn't work for you and you get a refund.

Amie, it looks like the thing you really don't like about this company is the way in which they recruit people. Fair enough. I think it's a little underhanded too. But at most all this costs people is the trip out, and however long they stay during the overview. And because all appointments are made over the phone, that's where many problems are. But that is also up to the person being called to make sure they have a good idea of what type of work they're going to check out. On the phone, I and other reps I know (like Tim), are encouraged to be completely honest with people in telling them about how the position is in sales, paid by 1099 or commission, and that workers must also be customers. This is done specifically to wade through people who wouldn't work well with the company anyways. Why would a rep waste his or her time bringing someone into the office that didn't seem like a good fit anyways? Granted, some people probably try to cut corners, but you could get that at any business. Verizon Wireless told me I'd save money with a different plan, which actually ended costing me more. Big deal. That representative was a moron, and I'm sure there are a couple bad eggs working with Symmetry also. My understanding is that you actually haven't even worked with the company, so you're complaint is really just that they call you a lot somehow. Big deal. Whether or not you like how Symmetry or other companies like it operate, they are completely %100 legal and have the BBB to stand behind them. I think you're wasting your time complaining about being called a lot by putting your complaint on this website. All you're doing is defaming a business and the people that work with it over phone calls. I can completely understand you disliking direct sales or whatever you call it, but unbiased people will read, and have already read what you've said, and it has been enough to make them never have enough trust in companies to ever give it a shot. Your report title is enough to slander this businesses name without any merit. I really do sympathize with annoying phone calls, and even some time you might have spent coming to the office. But it's just like looking for any other job. At least when you came in they were ready for you. Try applying and getting a hold of a manager at a restaurant; I've wasted hours coming back to one store to find they weren't even actually hiring. Did I report them as a ripoff? No. It's just another crappy part of life. I got over it. And I honestly mean no disrespect, but maybe you should just move on to a brighter future ahead. I'm sure you have better things to do than complain about one of the many little annoyances in life.

Good luck in the future
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#39 Consumer Comment

Other possible names may be InnCareers and Innovation-USA-Careers

AUTHOR: Stuart - (U.S.A.)

I received the following email yesterday and one other time. Both the name and the interest in who I interviewed with relate to Majestic Innovations and may be the same.

Here's the email:


"Dear Stuart _______, www.innCareers.com

Whatever we learn during the "interview follow up", we share with you. Sometimes we are able to right a wrong, or get you another "bite at the apple" or uncover a different opportunity for you with that company. Companies tell us things they would not tell you directly.

You are never under any obligation to us. The feedback we give you is valuable but free. If we can help you, we do.

We will find out if they have filled the job or are still deciding. Did they tell you they hired someone else? If so, did that person actually come on board as planned?

After investigating your last interview we will be able to recommend a similar job to you with a different company.

In addition to sending us your resume, we need to know:

1. What company interviewed you?
2. What was the job title?
3. What were you told was the reason you were not hired?
4. How did you hear about this job?
5. Most important, who interviewed you? (Specific names required. Any contact info is also very helpful)

If you have not had an interview yet, just save this invitation and notify us after you do.

We do not accept candidates before they have had at least one interview. Our approach is unusual, but unusually effective. Our website InnCareers.com will explain why we operate this way.

We are always company paid. We do not accept money from candidates.

We have top tier executive access at over 1000 companies. We have a very effective placement service that involves featuring one person to top management instead of 5 or 10 resumes to human resources. This research is an essential part of the process that makes us successful.

Sincerely,
Robert Kaufman
Innovation/ USA / Careers

Main Office: 631-862-4612

Western Regional Office: 760-650-1102

www.innCareers.com

robert@innovation-usa-careers.com

robertkkaufman@mac.com

Innovation is a research company that does career placements. We seek out special situations and special people.

__________________________
Your resume was on one of the career resume sites. We are responding to your request for help.

If you put "I do not wish to be contacted" or "remove me" in the subject line, we will permanently block your email address. If you have multiple email accounts you have to notify us for each one.

mailing address: Robert Kaufman 9 Clime Court Saint James NY, 11780
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#40 Consumer Comment

I also want to point out a few very obvious things.

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

1.) Symmetry gives its customers "loyalty checks." So does Quixtar. Another pyramid scheme. Same difference, don't you think? I certainly do.

2.) You claim that you would have done the same thing that I have done here, being in my shoes. However, in a few sentences down, you claim that I shouldn't be doing this because I am harming people like you. Well what about the harm that these people are causing other people by harassing them on the phone, and giving them hopes of false employment? Or people who get lured in to making phone calls 10 hours a day to have one person show up at a MLM presentation, and have people get ticked off at you for it?

3.) After seeing the type of behavior, just in this thread alone, from people who consider themslves "Associates" of Symmetry Direct, would YOU want anything to do with this company and people who handle themselves like this? I certainly wouldn't. And in fact, if this were a legitimate business, any manager, (ahem! Tim Woodcox) would have stepped in long ago to perform damage control. At least, I would have.

4.) Aside from everything else, making someone pay to get involved with a business may be a good idea. However, to me, it just reeks of fraud and scandal that is normally associated with any type of a pyramid scheme.

5.) Sitting at a desk all day, calling people to offer "full or part time employment" and having them show up to a MLM presentation is not my idea of a good time. Especially when these same people are encouraged to spend thousands of dollars on seminars, advertising (with false and misleading information on it) and wracking up a major phone bill, and being encouraged to "be a high roller..." this seems to happen a lot in MLM...
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#41 Author of original report

Jeff, glad it's worked for you but....

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Until my local offices here chose to act and behave responsibly, I will continue to have a VERY poor and VERY strong defense against Symmetry Direct. In fact, other people all over the country have responded to their very unethical and deceptive recruiting practices, not just myself in my local market, which is why I have such a very hard time "believing in this system." (Another MLM statement there... nice one!)

I have every reason to believe that Symmetry (my local offices especially) are a pyramid scheme. I am currently and presently in contact with several former employees (or insiders, if you will) who have nothing but nasty to say about this company and what it did to them, not for them. (Including harassment, bankruptcy filings, and severe financial difficulty!) In fact, I'd say, other than the people posting here, I have heard very little good about this company itself. I don't even know for sure that you are who you say you are. The Internet is a strange and deceptive place as well.

Ebay has so many Symmetry sellers that it's scary. And interestingly enough, each of them sell their vitamins and "God-inspired" health products at various and different prices. Now you say that this simply can't be, but it IS.

Here are the reasons that I believe that Symmetry is a pyramid scheme.

1.) You have to pay a fee to sign up to become an "Independent Distributor."
2.) Over-hyped marketing to lure people in to sign up with the company.
3.) Deceptive advertising practices that tell whole truths and half lies.
4.) Paying to go to over-hyped conferences to "believe in the system."
5.) Paying for desk space, advertising procedures and the like.
6.) Creating and maintaining an "upline." Or, pyramid, if you will. (This keeps the money coming in and going out....)

I guess what no one seems to get, is that aside from everything else, this company is not practicing what it preaches. It's own website, CLEARLY states that you MUST positively identify who you are, who you're with, and what you're doing. When you are calling people advertising "full or part time employment" this is most definitely unethical, and not at all what this company claims it promotes. I have a serious issue with this.

I am all for, and totally belive in an all natural lifestyle. However, not an over-hyped one who uses false and deceptive advertising and recruiting practices.

If I can save one person from being lured into this, then I have done my job here.

That's great that it's worked for you and Michele, but there are hundreds of thousands out there that it hasn't worked, and who feel completely ripped off by this company. It's no different than any other pyramid scheme.

For others reading this. Do a google on "Symmetry Direct." Other websites warn you against this company, and it is included on MANY pyramid scheme sites.
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#42 Consumer Comment

Well, Gosh! I joined an MLM and

AUTHOR: Thomas - (U.S.A.)

it cost me $80 to belong for 5 years as a Preferred Customer. Joining as a Dealer would have cost me $120 for 5 years. Pretty steep, no? When the 5 years are up I must 'rejoin'.

* I get to buy the company's products at an average of 25% discount from retail.
* The company makes products that ARE proven to be the best.
* Various clothes with logos as well as marketing posters, signs, pamphlets, and so forth with modest prices are available in my catalogue for those who want to be 'dealers'.

The company is called AMSOIL.

* Their 20W-50 High Performance Synthetic is the ONLY 20W-50 Cat 3 synthetic oil that does not have viscostiy index improvers.
* This 20W-50 High Performance Synthetic is a 300 hour marine rated oil, which is very unusual, and I use it in our big block speedboat. [These big block marine engines run $12,000 each, so using the very best oil makes wicked good sense, no?]
* Their oil filters have also proven to be the best.
* Just read about all this AMSOIL stuff at a gearhead site called (ROR redacted).

What is my point?

There are a few good MLM companies.

But I would emphasize the word "few", as in "very few". Maybe "one". And that one doesn't charge you a lot to join, and they do set up a business account for you.

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#43 UPDATE Employee

hey, it really HAS worked for me, and I am not a deceptive jerk about recruiting my underlings..."

AUTHOR: Jeff - (U.S.A.)

Amie,

I am Michele's brother. I completely understand the course of action that you took and if I was you and felt the same way. I would have probably done the same thing. I'm just hoping that you understand although you may have had negative experiences with some people in the company, it is not a scam.

A pyramid scam is the exchange of money with out a good or service. What you described is a pyramid scam. However, it is NOT Symmetry. People pay for products. When you give Symmetry money you get products shipped to you in return, that's call commerce. When you go to the grocery store you pay for your food. In Symmetry you're paying for nutrition. I don't collect a $200 fee from anyone. No one ever pays me directly. I get a commission check from Symmetry every month based on the people order products. Not a fee.

As far as, our customers going somewhere else for our products. Its impossible. For one Symmetry manufactures their own products and ships them directly to the customer. Someone could only get the products from the company it self and it's already whole sale price, so it wouldn't make sense for some one to buy it for $32.30 and then re-sell it for $15. They wouldn't make any money.

And the advances in technology are exactly why our company is growing so fast. We actually grew by 400% last year and every month this year has been a record month. People are looking for more ways to go direct, so they can get a high quality product at a discounted price. That is what we do Amie.

The second reason is that Symmetry gives its customers loyalty checks. For example someone could be using $100 in nutrition every month but be receiving a check for $60 or be using $30 and receiving a check for $50. Customer can recieve up to $300 in loyalty checks. Most customers don't even know about the business side. Symmetry just rewards them for being loyal. That is one of the reasons we have over a 90% re-buy rate, which means out of every 100 people over 90 re-order the next month. The other reason is our products increase their quality of life.

Network Marketing is far from a dead industry or soon to be dead industry. It has grown by 91% over the past 10yrs.To date it does 100billion per year and is on pace 700 billion per year industry by the year 2010. Harvard business school teaches network marketing.
Network marketing is on a tear, outpacing retail sales by an average of 1% a year over the past ten years. Alan Farnham, The Party that Crashed Retailing, Forbes Magazine Nov 2004

David Letterman, October28, 1997

David Letterman talking to Donald Trump
David asked Donald Trump: "Donald, if you lost everything - and I mean EVERTYTHING - what would you do to get it all back?"
Donald Trump responed quickly, without hesitation: "Network Marketing!"
Assuming that Trump must have been joking, the audience laughed at the remark.
Trump turned to the audience and said: "Well, that's why you're sitting THERE and I'm sitting HERE."

"Network marketing is the business world's but kept secret" Fortune Magazine

Even "Fortune 500" companies take advantage of the successful network marketing business methods. Coca-Cola, Colgate-Palmolive, Texas Instruments, Nextel/Sprint, AT&T, and Citigroup are just some of those giant corporations that have been reaping the benefits of network marketing.*Warren Buffet, who is ranked second in this year's "Forbes List of World Billionaires," believes in the power of network marketing. In fact, one of the biggest addition to his roster of businesses was actually a network marketing company --- Pampered Chef.

This isn't the world according to Jeff. These are all facts that you can find yourself. If you choose to look for the positive.

I notice you believe that only the higher ups make the most money in Symmetry. I just wanted to point out that you missed the fact that Michele told you that I make more than the person above me. I actually make a lot more than the person above me. Everyone has the same opportunity, to make whatever they feel is success for them. This business is what supports my family. I can't help but to take it personal offense when you attack it and call it a scam. By doing that you're calling me a scammer.

I am apart of Symmetry because it is the most ethical company I have ever come across. And is changing people's lives. The products saved my sister's life. I feel great when I help people to start using products and I know they won't get cancer or heart disease down the road or to help with their arthritis or help their child with ADD or ADHD focus so they wont have to put them on drug like Ritalin, which is a class 3 narcotic by the way.

Or when I get someone involved in the business and help them make an extra $1000/mo so they don't have to send their kids to day care and they can spend more time with them. If you call helping people with their health and finances a scam, then so be it. But SYMMETRY WORKS FOR ME! And my family and hundreds of thousands of other people that are involved in our company across the world.

I thank God every day that I was introduced to this company. Its given my family a life style I could have only dreamed of. I look at my son everyday and know he will never have to worry about the things(financially) I did growing up because of Symmetry. He will never have to watch my wife and I fight over money or stressed because we can't figure out how to pay next month bills. He be raised by us and not a day care and we will be able to go to all his school events, sporting events, etc because of this business. I encourage you to take a closer non-bias look at the company. At least the product side of things.

For once, talk to people that have benefited from Symmetry because there are a lot of us out there. Please don't put a bad name to the company that saved my sister's life and gave me and my family the financially freedom that most people dream of. I know you wouldn't want me to do it if you were in my shoes. I hope you can understand that.

If you have questions and have a sincere interest in getting more FACTS about the company from someone who knows. Just reply. I will even be willing to give you my email so we can communicate more directly
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#44 Consumer Comment

Michele

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Michele,
While I appreciate your mature and well-thought our response, I have just a few comments.

Multi-level marketing, is a soon to be dead way to do business. More and more people are able to get what they want via technology, and through means that weren't available 10 years ago. What is going to happen when these $50.00 vitamins that your brother is selling is now being touted on several other websites for $15.00, and his customers go that route instead? It is a guarantee that this will happen.

The reason that Symmetry Direct operates as a Pyramid Scheme is because they REQUIRE an investment, or "start up" packet if you will. This is clearly a screamer and a smoking gun for something being a pyramid scheme. All the major ones do it. (Mary Kay, Amway, and so on and so forth...) Any company that wants you to invest in, before you ever go to work for them should be a MAJOR heads up. This is the reason also that only 5% of people stay in a pyramid scheme... they recruit other people to keep the $200 (or more!!) fee coming in to suppor the higher ups. I am curious to know how many people your brother has under him that is handing over that $200 fee every week, and is keeping his pockets full. I can't believe that a tiny commission off of selling "God-inspired" health products, is what is really keeping him financially stable...

Michele, I have yet to read, other than Mark from Cedar Springs who has posted here, of this pyramid scheme working for anyone except, that it is through a "friend of a friend" type thing. I would love for someone to say "hey, it really HAS worked for me, and I am not a deceptive jerk about recruiting my underlings..." Mark seems to be the only one. I have so many emails and posts on my blog about people who have gotten royally screwed from Symmetry. They are no different, as far as I am concerned, than Quixtar, or anything else.

I also want to say, that while they are calling to ask if you are "keeping your work options open," could still be deceptive in some ways. Although this is much better than coming right out, and asking if you are looking for "full or part-time employment." However, they are also still posting "help wanted ads" at Aquinas College, Calvin College, and in the paper, which I find to be extremely deceptive and unethical. This is not a job. Some poor person who really needs a REAL job could be duped into going to this "interview," or "overview" as you put it, and get scammed out a couple hundred dollars that they don't have to lose. And I am not the only person (as you can clearly see here) that has been contacted about "full or part time employment."

If the company that is based here in Grand Rapids wasn't so deceptive, and was more honest about what they do, I never would have taken this route. (Not to mention, I was tired of getting weekly phone calls from these people... how annoying!) However, I wanted to protect more people from having their phone minutes, and their time wasted from this company. The company based out of Grand Rapids, is nothing more than a deceptive call center. In my opinion the people out of this office are worse than used car salesmen.....

I don't know what happens in the rest of the country, but here in Grand Rapids, there is a lot of half truths and whole lies being told.
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#45 UPDATE Employee

I was called too!

AUTHOR: Michele - (U.S.A.)

Amie,

First of all I really feel what you are going through. It seems as though this whole situation has caused you a lot drama in your life. I was contact by Majestic Innovations as well. However, the person I talked to, did tell me who referred me to the company. When I first got a message for them, they asked me if i was keeping my work options open. No one ever spoke of employment or job, which of course we know it isn't. Obivously someone did mess lead you or else you wouldn't have taken this type of action.

However its not EVERYONE saying that. Anyway I came saw the briefing. I didn't get started with the person I came to see because my brother already does Symmetry in Nebraska. I didn't feel as if they were mis leading in my situation because the first thing they say in the overview is that the name of the office is Majestic Innovations and that their service company is Symmetry. They even told me on the phone it would be an overview not an interview. My brother doesn't work in a training center he actually built his businss out of his home. He started about 5 years ago and my whole family gave him a lot of crap for it, called it a scam, pyramid scheme, etc. It was a good thing he didn't listen to us though because he just retired our parents.

He makes more money than anyone in our family and he doesn't have to work anymore. He just had his first child, has a great wife, and is able to spend all the time he wants with his family, he's only 23. It pisses me off because he asked me to start with me but i was one of those negative people. I noticed that you mentioned all the money goes to the top but I know for a fact the he actually makes more money than the person above him because he built a bigger organization.

A pyramid is exactly what you said giving money to a person without exchange of good or service. People pay Symmetry and the company gives them products, thats called commerce. Just as if we bought something on Amazon. We pay for the product then they send it to you. If we started a clothing store, no one would give us free clothes and wait for us to sell the clothes then pay them. We have to buy the clothes first. Just realize the people who do this own their business, so of course they have to invest. Trust me the 150 my brother used to start paid of. He's made thousands of dollars with this company and helped tons of other people make a lot of money and achieve their goals.

On a more pesonal not I was dignosed with breast cancer 4 years ago. Chemotherapy almost killed me because it doesn't just kill the cancer cells. It literally burns the inside of your body and kills everything good or bad. After my treatment where done I was told I was in recession. 6 months later it was full blown again. They wanted to have my breast removed but After my brother pleading with me I started using Symmetry's nutrition, instead. Today I am completely cancer free and healthier than i've ever been. The ingredients in their products saved my life. You can't tell me that aren't the best in the world or that it comes a dime a dozen. Everything that is in their products is documented, scientifically. Do some research on resveratrol, it proven to stop cancer in every phase and that's one of the ingredients in their product.

Of course their isn't a cancer receipt cure in the bible. But it does talk about different foods that they ate back then, that has healing properties. Because of technology we've been able to study those foods and figure out exactly why it was those healing properties and isolate those molecules. Symmetry is a VERY ethical company. I don't know how any one can lose money when they have a money back guarantee on everything. You can even send back empty bottles and they will refund your money! Obivously the people who say they lost money did not know that, which tells me that didn't know too much about the company. Amie, it just seems like you've dealt with the wrong people.

I just don't want you to base your opinion of this company on 5-10people. It is a lot bigger than that. The company is comprised of thousands of business partners who build their business ethically and are up front about everything, like my brother. Just because of a few peoples mistakes doesn't mean the entire company is scam. I know people who do some unethical things at my job, that doesn't mean the company i work for is unethical.

My suggestion is that instead of asking people it didn't work for ask people it DID work for. To me and family its the best thing in the world. Its the reason I am alive today. If you want success in something why would you ever ask a failure. I wouldn't get marriage advice from someone who has been divorced 3 times becaus they probably have a negative opinion about marriage. By the way I just started doing the business with my brother 4mo ago, I've made $10,000 in that time. Works for me. And just like you can tell stories of hundreds it didn't work for. I can show you thousands it has worked for, business or product side.

IF you have any questions feel free to respond. I'm a open book. I'll stand up for Symmetry any time, any day of the week. The company is absolutely AMAZING.
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#46 Consumer Comment

Uh huh!

AUTHOR: Mike - (U.S.A.)

Yep, Amie you have to pay for the your own desk and phone line. So you have been researching about the business too. That's good!

There so called 6 figure money earners probably don't even make $10,000 or over $10,000 a month!

Like what I calculated they are suppose to have at LEAST 625 teams of people. 7 people are considered as a team. 7 times 625 is about 3000 people. There are about 6 to 7 so called 6 figure money earners and 6 so called six figure money earners times 3000 people in their team is about 18,000 people. The're not even as much people in the business as close to 18,000.

I believe that the business wants you to believe that you can make ALOT of money so that you can invest in their business to make their business have more money!

In order for you to be a in the business you have to buy a Basic Pack, it's about $170. After you buy the Basic pack you'll be called a Marketing Rep. You have to invest in at about $100 a month to get your full commission. The least is about $30, if you invest in about $30 you won't get your full commission. People don't have that kind a money these days to invest in a business about $30 to $100 a month. People got bills to pay.

Well thanks for you time Amie! Just want to educate people about the business.
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#47 Author of original report

More information from Symmetry Itself

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Symmetry has some more information that I personally don't believe that it's "independent distributors" are following:

"Code of Ethics

I will deal with others honestly and fairly at all times.

I will be truthful in my representation of Symmetry products, making no medical or exaggerated claims, clearly stating all terms of sale.

I will uphold Symmetry's customer guarantee.
I will be respectful of each and every person I meet while doing my Symmetry business conducting myself in a professional, courteous and considerate manner.

I will correctly represent the Symmetry business plan in a manner that is consistent with Symmetry's prescribed materials and the income potential represented therein.

I will abide by Symmetry's rules concerning the transfer of enrollment, cross selling and cross enrolling.

I will provide training, motivation and support to all of those that I can in my organization. "


Now I don't know about you, but I find that Majestic Innovations has NOT been honest about Symmetry and what it pertains to in joining with their business. Their own websites exclaim that their products "comr from the Bible..." (I have read the Bible front to back many times, and don't remember coming across any secret cancer curing recipes....)

"Becoming an Active Marketing Representative

In order to build a business unit and begin to earn on more than 2 cells in the organization, you must buy a Business Literature kit and personally enroll a minimum of 2 Preferred Customers."

There IS an investment required to build a business..... Symmetry's Own website admits to this.

"Independent Status

When an application is accepted by Symmetry, the Business Partner is recognized as an Independent Contractor of Symmetry. All applications must be completed and signed or if filled out via the website the enrollee must click the acceptance button indicating agreement to adhere to these Policies and Procedures. U.S. residents must include a Social Security number if they wish to earn over $600 per year. No Business will ever be recognized as an agent or employee of Symmetry."

This is NOT an employment offer. Symmetry's own website states that you are an "independent business owner." So these offers of "employment" and "job opportunities" are deceptive and false, and in fact, they are breaking the law by doing so!


"Independent Contractors

As an Independent contractor you must:

Conform to all of the federal, state and local laws governing the running and maintenance of a small business.

Obtain any necessary licenses or file any pertinent reports as required by the laws in your area.

Be responsible for any federal, state, local or general taxes and fees due in your area.
Supply all necessary tools and equipment required to operate your business including but not limited to telephone, photocopies, office equipment and transportation
Determine your own work hours and establish a place of business. "

Guess what?! You DO have to pay for desk space, phone usage, and other means of being able to operate your "business." Symmetry supplies this information on it's website too. So much for me NOT being accurate with my information.

And these are just a few of the deceptive postings and lies that are again debunked by Symmetry itself.

Good luck if you join this business. You're going to need it!

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#48 Consumer Comment

i can see your point

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

Amie, I am glad that we can start having a mature conversation about this matter. I understand why you are upset and I agree with you as far as it is deceptive to say employment, or offer jobs, and I am sorry for that. I can only control what I do with my business. I have a pretty extensive sorting process when it comes to new people. I dont book everyone I talk to, because if there is a person that is close minded and very irritatable, why would I want to waste my time on them. I want good people in my business. I realize that this business probably isn't for you. By sayin that, I am not trying to say that you can't do it, you may just not want to. Either way, it's cool. If you ever are looking for something else though, you can be in my team ;). Anyways if I can come over any more objections, then please, don't be afraid to ask. Thanks for your time, and God Bless.
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#49 Consumer Comment

Interesting information and a bit of hatefulness....

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Liz from Omaha- To correct YOUR spelling, since you aren't past a 4th grade level, the word that you intended to use is IGNORAMUS. I am a college graduate with a degree in Business Management who was harassed by this company one too many a time. With your attitude and hate speech, it is a wonder that anyone goes to work in this business only to be around people like that. What an awful representation you are for the company! Shame on you! The information that I have about this company IS FROM FORMER "BUSINESS OWNERS." What about that is so hard to grasp?

Mark from Cedar- Thank you for your honest and thoughtful answer. While I don't agree with what you said, and while it sounds like most "start your own business" speeches I have heard before, if it is working for you that's great; I personally couldn't and wouldn't do it. Can you answer at all why people WOULD choose to call and offer employment or a job? Do you personally find that deceptive? I certainly do. I also appreciate your mature and grown up responses compared to most that I have read. You are the type of person that I would want to work with, if I chose to go into an opportunity like this.

However, until Majestic Innovations/Symmetry Direct/Premier Promotions, quits calling people to ask if they are looking for full or part time employment, and continue to advertise for Customer Service positions and the like, I can only do what they are doing and call it "employment" and a "job." (Note the quotation marks!)It is misleading of them to do so, but since that's what they call it, it's what I am going to call it!
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#50 UPDATE Employee

You are a thick-headed stubborn ignaramus

AUTHOR: Liz - (U.S.A.)

Maybe it is finally time for someone to let you know how much you dont know and what a complete idiot you realy are.

Thousands and thousands of people world wide are making tons of money in this buisness.
Only one week in I have doubled the money that I spent to get in....AND THEY SEND YOU PRODUCTS AND TOOLS TO START FLIERS AND THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE GIVING THEM MONEY FOR!!!!!!

I have never heard of someone as thick as you are. You have gotten a lot of questiions answered but people might as well have not responded because you are too retarded to grasp the concept of how it works and how it is NOT a pyramid scheme, Why there are several names and so on and so on and fricken so on.
THERE COULD BE AS MANY NAMES AS THERE ARE EMPLOYEES BECAUSE EVERYONE IS SELF CONTRACTED!!!
IT IS IN 15 COUNTRIES WORLD WIDE!!!!

You know nothing of the buisness, you obviously never went to colege and you probably, by the sounds of it never got past the 4th grade level in reading comprehension.

You OBVIOUSLY dont know or understand what it means to be self contracted or what a pyramid scheme realy is and it is obviosly pointless to try to explain those because they pretty much have been already and like a stuborn idiot you have not grasped it thus far.
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#51 Consumer Comment

answer

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

I personally dont say anything that has to do with the word "employment". Like I said before, anyone can enroll in the company, and everyone has their own way of doing things.

I dont mislead on the phone. The last thing that I want is someone that gets all bent out of shape when it is not what they expect. That is not only wasting their time, but mine as well. By the way, this is not a typical small business, so although the statement that 95% of small businesses fail their first year may be true, it is not the acurate statistic for this business.

Reguardless of whether that is the right statistic or not, just because 95% fail their first year, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't try, if it is something that you believe in. Over 50% of marriages end up in divorce, does that mean that you shouldn't get married. Almost half of all college students drop out of school before getting their degree, does that mean that we shouldn't go to college.

You may have heard of Michael Dell, owner of Dell Corporation. He started Dell computers in his college dormroom. I am kind of glad that he took a chance in himself. 5 years from the day he started he became a billionaire. The actual federal government statistic for THIS industry is 60% fail their first year. But out of the other 40%, 90% of them become financially independent.

Here is another statistic, over 90% of people that work a job will, by the age of retirement, either be dead, or dead broke. Also, over 90% of the people that own their own business, will be able to retire well before the age of retirement. The way I see it, my chances are way better on this side of the line as far as being able to retire before I die. And check this out.

One thing that sucks about traditional small businesses is that you have to invest 10's of thousands to 100's of thousands of dollars just to get started, and then you wont see any profits for generally at least 5 years. That is why most businesses fail in their first year. There is hardly any financial commitment at all to start with this company, (as little as $32), so if you fail, big deal, at least you gave it a shot. How are you ever supposed to know if anything works if you dont give it a try. All I know is that you miss 100% of the shots you never take.

One last thing. Could you please quit misleading people with words like "employees", "jobs", etc. I am not an employee and I dont work a job. Thanks.
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#52 Consumer Comment

answer

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

I personally dont say anything that has to do with the word "employment". Like I said before, anyone can enroll in the company, and everyone has their own way of doing things.

I dont mislead on the phone. The last thing that I want is someone that gets all bent out of shape when it is not what they expect. That is not only wasting their time, but mine as well. By the way, this is not a typical small business, so although the statement that 95% of small businesses fail their first year may be true, it is not the acurate statistic for this business.

Reguardless of whether that is the right statistic or not, just because 95% fail their first year, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't try, if it is something that you believe in. Over 50% of marriages end up in divorce, does that mean that you shouldn't get married. Almost half of all college students drop out of school before getting their degree, does that mean that we shouldn't go to college.

You may have heard of Michael Dell, owner of Dell Corporation. He started Dell computers in his college dormroom. I am kind of glad that he took a chance in himself. 5 years from the day he started he became a billionaire. The actual federal government statistic for THIS industry is 60% fail their first year. But out of the other 40%, 90% of them become financially independent.

Here is another statistic, over 90% of people that work a job will, by the age of retirement, either be dead, or dead broke. Also, over 90% of the people that own their own business, will be able to retire well before the age of retirement. The way I see it, my chances are way better on this side of the line as far as being able to retire before I die. And check this out.

One thing that sucks about traditional small businesses is that you have to invest 10's of thousands to 100's of thousands of dollars just to get started, and then you wont see any profits for generally at least 5 years. That is why most businesses fail in their first year. There is hardly any financial commitment at all to start with this company, (as little as $32), so if you fail, big deal, at least you gave it a shot. How are you ever supposed to know if anything works if you dont give it a try. All I know is that you miss 100% of the shots you never take.

One last thing. Could you please quit misleading people with words like "employees", "jobs", etc. I am not an employee and I dont work a job. Thanks.
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#53 Consumer Suggestion

Just one answer please...

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Mark from Cedar Springs:

Why do you, and others from Symmetry/Majestic Innovations/Premier Promotions, call people and ask "ARE YOU LOOKING FOR FULL OR PART TIME EMPLOYMENT/JOB?"

And then go on to offer a "business" that they can start if they come to the "interview?"

Can you answer this? Can you realize how people would look at this as being deceptive? And then with that, why would people want to join this business when right off the bat they are deceptive and dishonest?

Heather made a wise choice to not waste her time OR her money.

95% of all new businesses FAIL in the first five years. That's quite a number.
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#54 UPDATE Employee

Response to false information

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

Heather, the girl that you spoke to probably wasn't reluctant to use the word "commission". Everyone that I know in this business is proud of how we get paid, we make very good money. Symmetry pays out more to its reps than any other company in the industry. There are about 22,000 companies in this industry. Also, we dont have interviews, we have overviews, and there is a big difference. The overview is not a sales pitch, it is a business pitch. Symmetry doesn't hire sales people, that is not what this industry is about. Symmetry allows independent business partners to become distributors, paid on commission and bonuses. That is how people truly find out what they are actually worth, based on a work ethic. Aren't you guys sick of somebody else telling you how much money you are going to make, what time you have to be at your job, when you can or can't take time off. Since I started this business, I have not looked back. I have become unemployable. When you try it and start seeing the freedom that you get, you will wonder how you ever worked for someone else. Needless to say, Symmetry doesn't offer "jobs" to their reps, they offer them an opportunity to make what they want of this business. Furthurmore, there are no "start-up fees," that is a common misconception. All you need to do is get some product for yourself, (as little as $32), just to be placed in the system, so that you can start building an organization under you. Symmetry feels that the people representing the product should at least have there own conviction in the products, so that they can believe in them. Personally, Symmetry's products have changed my life, but I am not going to write about that, because it will probably be disreguarded anyways. Also, the conferences are not mandatory, and neither are the materials. When I went to my first conference because they were going to teach me how to build this business, and overcome obstacles that I might not have been able to by myself. A lot of people fail in this industry, sometimes because they just cant handle it, but more often than not, the reason people quit, is just because they dont have the proper education and support. But on the flip side, this industry creates more millionaires than any other industry in the whole world. On another note: Heather, do you even know what the "conference bucks" are? Conference bucks are rewards for people who work hard; you do certain things and you will get cash money as a bonus, key word cash. It's perfect. Conference bucks are completely optional, and the money goes to those who earn it. It is just an added incentive to work hard. I dont understand how you can say that we try to hide our conferences, nothing makes me prouder, and I talk about them to all of my new people, and present them the opportunity to go, if they choose. And to touch a little about what you said about our products with "Biblical" secrets, we have one out of our entire arsenal of products that has references to the Bible. We don't use that to exploit anything, it is just where the idea for the ingredients were derived from. Scientists were trying to figure out why people used to live so long, and that obviously isn't the case today. So, they wrote down everything that was written in the Bible that had any healing references, and made a product out of it. And it works, again I am not going to go into that, because it would be meaningless to start talking about our products. Finally, if you have any interest in nutritional supplements, I would say check it out for yourself, clearly the people that are talking badly about this company dont know much about it. For example, just saying "ten-ninety-nine" job, is a contradiction of terms. So, please only listen to the people who have a relative clue about what they are talking about. As was mentioned before, these are just a couple of people who didn't even start with the company, telling people all about it. Heather, you didn't even come in to check it out. How does your opinion have any weightat all? Thanks for your time.
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#55 Consumer Comment

Investment Required

AUTHOR: Heather - (U.S.A.)

To follow up on my previous report:

I talked to the girl at Magestic Innovations a few days after I filed my first comment, and asked her if the pay was salary, hourly or commission. She responded, "We get paid on a ten-ninety-nine basis." I wanted to force a straight answer so I asked, "What does that mean?" She said, "It's a commission."

Now why would they be reluctant to use the word "commission"?

I then asked if the position would require an investment and she confirmed that it would. I said, "I'm sorry, I want a job where I go, do the work, get a paycheck and go home." And I cancelled my "interview" which was actually a sales pitch.

Businesses that believe in their products are not afraid to hire people on an hourly basis because they are confident they will sell enough product to cover overhead expenses, such as paychecks for sales people, and still make excellent profits. Businesses that believe the jobs they offer are good jobs do not have to obscure or delay revealing pertinent details because they know the jobs will be attractive to prospective employees. Finally, if a business believes it will succeed as it skims off the tops of its "employee's" sales, why would that business CHARGE those employees "start-up fees," conference fees, material fees, and on and on? Would it not be in their best interest to find good salespeople and GIVE them everything they need to be successful, believing that ultimately they will make more money through their salespeople's success than through the sale of Business Paraphernalia to its own employees?

I hope that those who read all these diatribes and rebuttals will just go to the websites indicated and look for themselves. They are not always easy to find on one's own. Majestic Innovations wants to keep the details of all the conferences, "conference bucks" you must earn, and training sessions obscure until they've hooked you with their big sales pitch. You will also see that they make vague claims about their products somehow tapping into "Biblical" secrets. They exploit people's beliefs to sell products that cannot have any Biblical basis because the Bible was not written as a dietary guide.

Finally, I hope people don't waste too much more time on this. If someone WANTS to try to start a business of selling supplements to thier friends and family, handing out fliers and calling job-seekers with offers for "interviews" for "ten-ninety-nine" jobs, then this is certainly the place to go. I think most people who peruse this page will more than get the picture and move quickly on.
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#56 Author of original report

Deceptive "Employment"

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

The information that I have provided, and have received has come from numerous former employees, who have shared this information with me. I have not "twisted it" or "revised" it in any way, but have simply shared, what has been passed on to me.

There is no reason, whatsoever, to offer employment to someone when it is not an employment option. Majestic Innovations is continuing to do this, and this is unethical, and unprofessional. It is also deceptive, no matter who you are.

I also don't believe that anyone in the "upline" is willing to "help" you, other than for the sole purpose of fattening their own pocket book, just like any other pyramid scheme.
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#57 Consumer Comment

corrections

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

There is no requirements to be a desk holder. The office lease holder makes the decision on whether or not someone can become a desk holder, based on maturity, and if they could be an asset to the office. You can put whatever number you want to on the flyers, they SUGGEST you put your upline desk holder's number on there, with an extension number on it, so that someone can answer the phone when you cant be in the office.

And also, if you put out a flyer, your upline doesn't get the sales or the bonuses from the person that comes in, that is your person. You get the enroller's bonus and that person is placed on your front level. When it comes to the quote Amie made, "Tools are optional, but so is success", what is shady about that; it is the truth. The trainers at SOS know how to have success. They suggest those tools to you, to help you build your business better, because they know what works and what doesn't. They dont make money off of you buying books or anything. Nothing is required, it is just suggested for you to have an easier time building your business. On another note, you do not need to be a deskholder to enroll people under you.

The office lease holders dont want you to run an ad until you reach a level, because it costs money to run an ad, and they want you to have some success, so that you can afford to run an ad. But there are many other ways of reaching people without doing ads. Remember, you are in your own business, so you can do whatever you want, your upline suggests things that make it easier to build your business, because they have made the mistakes already. They want you to reach success as fast as you can because that helps them out. They woulnd't try to mislead you, there is no reason. If it doesn't help, they wont suggest it. Also, those of you who have read all of these posts, please realize that obviously this business isn't for everyone, but at least check it out for yourself, other than listening to one or two people's opinions about a company that has changed my life and the lives of many others. This is not an unethical business. A couple of people take the facts and twist them to make this business sound bad. Notice the people who have made negative comments about this company have either not got involved, or were in the business for a very short time, please take that in mind. Thanks
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#58 Consumer Comment

Presented as Employment

AUTHOR: J - (U.S.A.)

I recieved a call from Paula Lopez the week of April 17th from Majestic Innovations. The voice mail stated that "I was referred to you by a friend" and asked if I was "still looking for employment". When I returned her call it was obvious in the first 2 minutes that it was a similar organization to alticor (Amway) in the way that it operates. I immediatley asked who gave her my number and she said "I lost the piece of paper".

While this may or may not be a bad thing, anyone who has been involved in sales/business for more then a week will take it at face value rather quickly. With any business you get what you put into it and while some may feel it is a "scam" the fact is that if it were illegal it would have been addressed by authorities.

note: any business that asks you for an "interview" after regular business hours is more then likely not a conventional business model.
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#59 UPDATE EX-employee responds

Distinctive Marketing Solutions Scam

AUTHOR: Danielle - (U.S.A.)

Don't Forget Distinctive Marketing Solutions!!! It is a branch of Cydcor which is a branch of DS Max. It is straight commission, there is no health care and training is not paid. Also, suspiciously my pay check was never what it was suppose to be. There was always some reason that an application didn't go through, and I was missing money! Don't be fooled, this is not a good job for anyone who went to college! They prey on the naive, don't be one of them! You also are required to work atleast 12 hour days sometimes more, use your own car for traveling to your territory, and you pay for gas. It is almost cult(ish). Beware the people seem nice, but they are using you.
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#60 Author of original report

I was told this in regards to the desk space rental

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

You must recruit 2 people in order to rent a desk.

Seeds of Success is a weekend of high-pressure salesfor the tools. They offer specials, but you still have to put your upline's phone number on the flyers you have to buy. Your upline gets the sales from those flyers because they answer the phone.

"The tools are optional, but so is success."

They, do, however, explain why they made the overviewand power hour the way they did.

The emphasis is on recruiting at SOS.
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#61 Consumer Comment

Lisa from Chicago

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

I have been told by former "employees" that before you can advertise, or even recruit people under you, that you MUST rent desk space, to even be at that "level" to do so.

If you go to the Seeds of Success Seminar, please let us know what happens.

My biggest issue, as you can tell, is the deceptive advertising and recruiting techniques.... Good luck with whatever decision you make!
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#62 Consumer Comment

A bit more honesty required..

AUTHOR: Lisa - (U.S.A.)

I must say that you have all done a good job of discussing this issue. I am not necessarily on any one side, but I do have my issues with Symmetry's tactics.

I was contacted last thursday by Jenn, 'because my resume came across her desk', to see if my 'work options' were still open. I was of course sceptical because I hadn't applied to more than 10 jobs in the last month, and 'Chicago Premier' certainly wasn't one of them. So, I asked what kind of company it was, and she said a 'health and wellness educational' company. I knew it was a MLM kinda thing but I went ahead to set up an 'interview'. I was asked to 'dress nice' and 'be on time'. The instructions puzzled me, and they puzzled me enough to think it could somehow be a normal job, so I showed up to the training last night.

I showed up early, about 5:45pm (interview was at 6:30pm) and I was asked to wait outside in the cold because Jenn was in a meeting. I would have walked away if not for the distance I had covered to get there, and the girl who came after me that also was asked to wait outside.

The presentation was nice. But, of course, we were asked to pay $149 for a starter pack. We were encouraged to come for tomorrow's 'power hour' for free, but if we knew we wanted to take this business to the next level, we had to grab the opportunity of the 'Seeds of success' (equivalent to 6 months of 'power hours') this weekend (21st-23rd in Milwaukee). Cost? $300 with a special discount of $105 for a total of $195. We had 3 options to start a)Seeds of success + starter pack b)Seeds of success c)Starter pack or preferred customer. The office owner also gave a money back guarantee for this weekend.

Now, I have an issue with luring me into "an interview", only to end up getting a high pressure sales talk, AND a request for my money ON THE SPOT.

Network marketing may not be bad, but it becomes suspicious when vital info is left out, and more importantly, when I am not allowed to research BEFORE commiting my money.
Why was it not specified that 5 teams fetching you $300 a month, was actually 35 people? (5 people 7 levels down)

Why was I told that there was no clue when the next Seeds of sucess was going to be held? I don't believe that.

Why am I expected to drop $294 on the SPOT without going home to research and think a bit? Am I some kind of idiot? If I work $10/hr, it would take me nearly 30 hours of work to pay for that....when I am even LOOKING for the work to begin with. They really need to be more upfront, and warn people of an investment somehow, not waste people's time and make them look stupid.

I was thinking of going for the Seeds of success just out of curiosity, but I don't know if losing $200 from work, skipping a fundraiser I am volunteering at, AND paying $195 is worth it.

BTW, is it really true that they rent the tables?
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#63 Author of original report

Ignorance rears its ugly head...

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Lisa, how many people understand what "1099" in an employment ad means? Not very many. Especially when it is advertising for full/part-time. This is deceptive. Especially calling itself a "fitness" company. Last I checked, fitness wasn't overpriced vitamins that you can buy anywhere anytime. Fitness was exercise, work out equipment, etc. Advertising? This is a lot different than stating "independent distrubutor." Enjoy $$$, fun and travel? For whom? Tim Woodcox? Travel that you have to pay several hundred dollars for at a time? Money that you may or may not earn? Please.....Career? Not hardly... a way to be taught how to lie, steal, and cheat your way around life. You didn't even respond to the other employment ad that was posted....

It is deceptive, and unethical to call someone, and ask if they are "looking for full or part time employment" and then to imply that they will be doing customer service and using their graphic design skills. Do you disagree? One girl, Heather, posted this very same story!

I am very pleased to hear that my posts here have caused dialogue and discussion.I hope it does. As you can see, I have encouraged people to check this pyramid scheme out for themselves.

You have done absolutely nothing but run me into the ground. I have done my research, and have not personally attached anyone but the ethics and behavior of this "company" and the owner, Tim Woodcox. I feel that this "company" is deceptive and harmful to potentional "employees."

I don't know if you are aware or not, but I don't trust Amway, Quixtar, Team of Destiny or their leader any farther than I can throw them. While Grand Rapids was built around this pyramid scheme, I believe that it will potentially collapse once the pyramid does. There are only so many people left in the world. And it is widely reported that d**k Devos, and his family are completely broke. (I am not originally from Michigan even so I could care less how a city came about!)

I encourage those reading Lisa's bitter diatribes to look a little more closely. This is a person who is attacking me personally, and has not even addressed anything or any of the factual information that I have provided here to potential "independent distributors."

Your parents have every right to be concerned about your brother; especially if he is working for Majestic Innovations. He will be encouraged to lie to people, to lie to himself, and to be involved with very unethical business practices. I highly encourage them to do more research before your brother wastes more of his time and money than he probably already has.

Forgive me for being an honest, hard-working person, who doesn't believe in "getting rich fast" or "believing in the system." I believe in busting butt to get to the top, and for working for everything I have. Not lying to people, or harming people and taking money from them that they don't have in the first place. I believe in an ethical business practice and for treating people the way that I would want to be treated. I don't support lying, or stealing, so if that makes me a bad person to judge character and make comments on, so be it. I am one person with an informed decision and proud of that. I believe that anyone making a decision based on ignorant attacks and diatribes like the ones you have provided is perfect material for Majestic Innovations though. It seems to help the place stay in operation!

Lisa, I suggest that you do your research into pyramid schemes. I also suggest that you research this company. Talk with former "employees" as I have. I also suggest that if you can't provide a rebuttal to anything that I have researched and spent time putting here, that you not waste your time anymore. You are doing nothing more than attacking someone's hard research and character that you don't even know!

How much money do you make working this pyramid scheme yourself? If you've made a fortune, I'd love to know about it, other than ramblings and rantings that you have provided. Everyone I have talked to, has lost thousands of dollars... but there is always an exception to every rule. Perhaps you are it!

And you're right about one thing, nothing on this earth is guaranteed at anytime, or any day.
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#64 Consumer Comment

What is Deceptive?

AUTHOR: Lisa - (U.S.A.)

The ads Amie complains about read like this...

Job Description: Advertising FITNESS Hard working, ambitious individuals who are seeking people-oriented career. Enjoy $$$, travel and fun! Full/part time. No experience necessary. 616-554-**** (1099)

I don't understand what is deceptive. It even states 1099 income. THAT MEANS COMMISSION based in some way. That means it is not hourly or salary. Most likely means if you call the ad, don't expect to be an employee. You will probably be an independent rep of some kind. Again, what is deceptive? If you don't like the sound of it don't call! If it is a type of 1099 that means you could possible make really good money if you are a really self-motivated person?

I bet the ad reads that way so that people like Amie don't call! Lol. Amie should be a writer for the National Enquirer. A professional critic who twists every bit of information she can get her hands on. Are you serious? Lol ha ha ha. It's hopeless to debate with this lady. If you have anything to say that is positive or supporting any type of Network marketing business she will slam it. But if you bash something or some one in a MLM business or anyone by the name of Tim Woodcox then what ever you say is gospel. Ha ha ha. CRAZY! If you live in Grand Rapids Michigan and you deny the success of the Network Marketing industry you are crazy! This city was build largely in part from the success of that industry!

Amie what do have to say about people who invest their entire lives into big strong companies to only be late down when they get laid off or fired because the company strugglesGM, Steel case, Pfizer? Nothing is perfect. Why don't you just worry about yourself and get your self a GOOD J.O.B. If someone else wants to go and take a chance in them selves and build a MLM business, then let them. Many people have failed. many have made some very decent incomes. It should just like anything else in life to me. Marriage is what 50-50 odds? College degree comes with what guarantee? Job security today is Most people who go out and start their own traditional business will not make it. And they have to invest Hundreds of thousand of dollars usually. Are you going to call that a scam too?

You need to realize that if no one ever took chance to build a business then most people would not have a job. Someone has to build the business for the rest of the people to have a job. So it's VERY obvious that you will NEVER be building any type of business. That's ok but I think it is VERY sad to see someone like you try to ruin the opportunity for someone else who may try to take a look at the industry. Or for that matter someone who may already be building this business.

My little brother is building a business in the Network Marketing industry and he is doing very well. He is a nice kid. But after my parents read your entries they freaked out and gave him a very, very hard time. After taking the time to really look into the company and its services they are now very big supporters of what he is doing. Because of you though, there were some very intense and unnecessary conversations in our family house. You are not the judge of what is right or wrong, or good or bad. You are ONLY ONE person with one lousy opinion. I think anyone who would make an uneducated decision based just on your personal opinion should seriously consider the source.

Amie is causing way more harm than good by positng things like this. Just look at what she is really saying. Complain complian complain. Not the middle man I would want making my decisions. Just my free opinion.
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#65 Consumer Comment

Interesting read....

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

So Lisa, you admit, that Majestic Innovations, is AKA Premier Promtions, Michigan Premier, and a host of other names, and that they DO in fact change their name. Great. Someone can finally admit to this. What a relief! (PS you said yourself that Tim Woodcox signed the contract with his then company name of Premier Promtions. If this is in fact correct, then you are freely admitting this, because he ALSO owns Majestic Innovations.... coincidence?)

I don't feel that my comments are misconceptions. The information that I have gathered, and am confident about has been gathered from wesbites, former "employees" and my own personal experiences with the "company" and people with the "company." I must admit... the people that have posted here have certainly not impressed me that this would be a "company" that I would want to be a part of. Yourself included.

I also want to ad that I am a college grad who is wonderfully employed by a real company, with a real job, and a real pay check every two weeks with full benefits. I am fed up and pissed off at Tim Woodcox's "company" for lying to the public, and for claiming to offer employment when they clearly do not. What part about this do you folks not understand?! You seem to think I am personally attacking Tim Woodcox. I don't know the guy. However, I know that himself, and others like him lie to people every single day offering full or part time employment. And I am not the only one specifically searching for these ads on the weekends. I have many friends and helpers and former "employees" to help me out.I also have a blog that I maintain faithfully. I am not bored, I just hate this "company" and what it stands for. It is a rip off, and it is a fraudulent company.

However, I will address a few of your comments.

First of all, Shouldn't business and personal ads
be separate? Would you answer a "puppies for sale" ad by "Premier Promotions" for under the owner's name? Would you answer a "free puppies" ad? This is MLM, you would end of buying the puppy. Interesting that he allows this for his "friends."

Only deskholders (ie those who pay RENT to Symmetry) are even allowed to put in an ad. Funny that Tim Woodcox monitors like this....but with the statement that you made, it certainly gives him free reign and the access to do so.

Different offices opening their own locations huh? The office was presented as a co-op and training center. This page[symmetrydirect.com/
company/EventMap_Michigan.htm] only shows three locations in Michigan - Canton, Lansing, and Grand Rapids. They never mentioned opening your own location, except that products are to be delivered to your home or P.O. box, not the office/training center (Symmetry rule). That kind of throws that lie right out the window huh?

Normally franchises require you to start your own business using their name. What does "Symmetry" have to hide that they won't allow their "business owners" to do this?

I did go into the office. I was told "Majestic Innovations" on the phone, and Symmetry Direct when I got there. How is this truth telling?

If the products are the "best in the industry" where is the proof? I don't see Consumer Reports or the FDA, or anyone else for that matter reporting on Symmetry's "God-invented" products. Mary Kay claims their makeup is the best... Quixtar and TOD claims their products are the best... I am sure that with Majestic Innovations, Premier Promotions, Symemtry Direct, or whatever they want to call themselves are going to claim that their products are the best too. Give me a break on this please. A pyramid scheme ALWAYS has the best of everything....

Lisa, you claim that I have too much time on your hands, but you yourself replied to my post, and spent more time insulting me than you did defending the great "company" that you are with.

I will end this with two points.

1.) No one has yet to refute the fact that Tim Woodcox, Majestic Innovations, Premier Promotions, Symmetry Direct and the "employees" are bold faced lying by offering full or part time employment and placing deceptive employment ads in the local papers, and on college campuses. Can someone explain why this is ok and acceptable? Not to mention "ethical?" Because I don't think it is!

2.) The comparison to corporations is irrelevant.
Symmetry's sales force titles are similar[
symmetrydirect.com/
company/Recognition.htm- Choose "Achievement levels"] to the corporate titles[symmetrydirect.com/
company/biographies.htm]. Like Quixtar, pins are given based on number of people enrolled and points earned. Executive Field Vice President is the highest level. You're not the president of your own company when your title is Marketing Rep. or even V.P. There is one president of Symmetry Direct, Milpitas, CA. So stop with the comparisons already....

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#66 Consumer Suggestion

Correction

AUTHOR: Lisa - (U.S.A.)

Premier Promotions is not a name change. It was an GR Press account name set up by Mr. Woodcox five years or so ago for something else. Incase you have never ran an ad for anything in the GR Press it cost MONEY. It costs a lot less if you sign a contract and set up a company/account name. The people at the GR Press tell ya to just pick something to have a name so they can get you to sign a contract. If you end up starting a new business down the road OR change your name or anything they don't let you change your account name to run ads unless you are willing to pay the NEW prices. So if you started an account YEARS ago they will lock you in at that price if you keep that same account. Why would anyone change the name on their account if they were going to have to pay WAY more to run a simple ad? I used to do some business with Tim and he let me use his account to run my ads for my separate business as a favor so I wouldn't have to sign a contract and pay more. He saved me a lot of money. You are so incredible! Amy, find something better to do. Give the poor guy a break!

He lets other INDEPENTENT reps and his friends use his account to save money on their own PERSONAL and business ads!!! You are clueless. Get a job. Still looking in the classified ads for a job? Obviously you are still looking for a career while other people are going out and building one! I can't believe how many times I have read people on this website who explain your misconceptions so clearly yet you totally take them all WAY out of context.


The different office names that are out there ARE NOT COMPANY NAME CHANGES!!!! It is DIFFERENT reps opening their own locations! Are you saying that if you opened your own retail store you wouldn't give it your own name? Isn't it your money and time invested into opening it? Why would you use someone else's name? New name, fresh start. I know that the company these offices are working with IS a good company! If you ask them on the phone they will tell you what company they are with! If you go in to the office the first thing they tell you about is what company they are with! They are proud of it!!!!!! And the products are the best in the industry! I will say it again. YOU ARE CLUELESS about half the stuff you comment on! If you are so bored why don't you go write about the drug industry or politics? That should really keep you busy. Go complain about gas prices or college tuition cost or something!! I hope that anyone who reads this realizes this lady has way too much time on her hands. GOOD LUCK!
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#67 Author of original report

Deceptive Employment Ads

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

This one traces right back to Tim Woodcox's number that he listed in his emails and on the BBB site: This was posted in the Grand Rapids press!

Job Title: Advertising FITNESS
Source: The Grand Rapids Press Employment Ads

Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Date: 04-09-2006

Job Description
Description: Advertising FITNESS Hard working, ambitious individuals who are seeking people-oriented career. Enjoy $$$, travel and fun! Full/part time. No experience necessary. 616-554-1148 (1099)

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#68 Consumer Comment

Premier Promotions Grand Rapids MI-another name change!!!

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Well well well.

It looks like this "company" has undergone yet ANOTHER name change. How many does this make now?

According to an "EMPLOYMENT" ad on mlive.com, the company AKA Majestic Innovations is now calling itself "Premier Promotions."

Oh but wait! They don't continually change their name do they?

Interestingly enough, Premier Pormotions has the exact same address as Majestic Innovations! What a coincidence. And they also are involved in "health and fitness" products. Another coincidence! My goodness. More fraud is being committed day after day for this pyramid scheme.

If you see an add like this in the paper, rest assured it is from Symmetry Direct:

"Job Description
Description: OFFICE. PEOPLE PERSON. Expanding company in health and fitness industry looking for 3 motivated people. Part/Full time. (1099). 616-xxx-1057. "

The above was posted in the Grand Rapids Press April 16th, 2006. The "company" name was Premier Promotions. Upon doing a google on this new name, I got back the same address and information for Majestic Innovations.

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#69 Consumer Comment

Truly intelligent people seek truth; not lies and deception!

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Unfortunately, this company is showing it's true colors.

As you can see, regardless of what myself, and other people say,that we can provide proof of, people are going to defend an unethical and un-truthful "business." This is also, unfortunately, another sad and sorry side effect of pyramid schemes.

While Amanda took the time to personally attack me, she did not however, take the time to respond to Heather's story of what happened to her. She was offered a part time job at this place. Was told that she could help with desiging, and was told to dress nice for her "interview." And was even encouraged to bring her interview, when apparently, you don't even have to have a high school diploma to do this type of "work". This is unethical, and in any other part of the world where I come from, it's called.... LYING. Everytime they call someone asking if they are looking for full or part time employment, it is LYING.

I also want to respond to a few of Amanda's comments and point out the obvious:

They can't even use Symmetry's own name when they are calling people. What does that tell you right there? Amway does this with their "multi-level marketing." Quixtar, Team of Destiny, and others also use this. It is a way for them to continue what they are doing, and being sneaky and deceptive about it!

This particular office has gone by at least four different names in the past five years. Don't believe me? Contact the State Attorney General's office.

While it's true that I have not "talked" with Tim Woodcox, he is very much aware of who I am and why I am upset.(Aside from email, I have filed NUMEROUS complaints with local and state wide government affiliations.) Apparently, while Amanda obviously has internet access, she hasn't quite reached up with the 20th century in understanding that email is one of the best forms of contact with people. I emailed Tim Woodcox with my complaints. And I got a response. A form letter. Now, that is just not good business. If someone is that upset, you do everything in your power to help them and calm them down. I am also aware that members of Majestic Innovations believes in censorship because my blog has been censored SPECIFICALLY because of "complaints" of my Majestic Innovations writings.

Vitamins and health products are a dime a dozen. Anyone anywhere can package something all natural and call it the next best thing. Majestic Innovations is no different. In fact, the key ingredient in their products is aloe. Aloe, as any doctor or nurse will tell you is nothing more than a laxative when used internally.

I am very sorry for those who are defending this "company." I also hope that you feel good about yourself preying on people who truly need a job, and need a source of income. Shame on you!

If you have been contacted by this company, rest assured, that you will probably NOT make money. You have to "rent" desk space a month, you have to pay for your cell phone, handle overhead costs (ie flyers, business cards, etc) all by yourself. Even any awards that this company gives out (Seeds of Success) you HAVE to pay for! Imagine just to get started in this thing is going to cost you several hundred dollars. Most people, especially in todays society, don't have that kind of cash just laying around somewhere. How do I know all of this? Because this is what former "employees" have told me!! They fell for it, and you can too.

But again, don't believe me. Go to a meeting yourself. (NOT an interview as they will have you believe.) See what this "business" is all about.....
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#70 UPDATE Employee

To Intelligent Readers

AUTHOR: Amanda - (U.S.A.)

So I actually work with Symmetry Direct, and I just wanted to point out a few important aspects of things i noticed on this thread. The first is that the major purpose of this thread is to accuse a legitmate, ethical business of scamming people simply because it is not done in the exact format as another business. These types of criticisms typically come from a lack of understanding about the concept or from unanswered questions. I recommend to Amie and to anyone who reads this who would like to know more about the industry and make an INFORMED decision to read The Business School for People who Like Helping People by Robert Kiyosoki, although I am sure that Amie won't actually do it. While I don't mean to attack her specifically, it seems that no matter what she is told, she will believe what she wants.

Second, I want to point out that the discerning reader will find answer to many of the questions posed on this report embedded within the responses. For example one primary contention of Amie's argument is that the company changes it's name all the time. The response to that question was given and ignored (We don't change our name, but we are not allowed to use Symmetry as an office name because Symmetry does not run the offices - individual business partners do).

Finally, my response to this thread is that it is essentially unwarranted and insulting. The UNited States was built on small business and that's what this is: a network of small businesses. If it wasn't for you, then fine. If you were called more than once, then I'm sorry because I understand that can be annoying. However, being called more than once does not mean that we're dishonest, unethical, scamming people. It's just honest people trying to build their business by HELPING others achieve the success they desire, or benefit their health in order to combat the rising costs of medical care and incidences of disease. If we didn't truly believe we were helping people, we wouldn't do it. As such, I take personal offense to the attack on Tim Woodcox, who is a very good business partner and good person. Amie, you did not contact him or talk with him directly. You emailed him and there's a difference so when he says he doesn't know you, but vaguely knows that you exist, that's true. When he says he didn't call you and has no control over who other people call, that's true. Perhaps you should consider the often-repeated phrase "Your mind is like a parachute. It works best when its open," and consider that it takes all kinds of people to make the world, and just because you don't like one of them doesn't mean you need to badmouth them all over the internet. This is, in fact the reason I am posting a rebuttal at all. I am a little ashamed to even dignify this uninformed blather with a response, but he and his office do not deserve this kind of attack. Let bygones be bygones.
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#71 Author of original report

Thanxs Heather!

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Heather, Thanks for sharing your story! I am sorry and disappointed to hear that Majestic Innovations is still up to its old tricks, and have been adding a few more. How pathetic, and disturbing. I encourage you to also file a complaint with the BBB about their deceptive practices in recruiting. It certainly wouldn't hurt!

I am beginning to wonder, if Brandy got the nice, polite speech from Tim because he thought she was me doing some investigative work? It would be interesting to look into that further.

Let us know what happens when they respond to your questions, and thanks again for posting your story. Don't waste your time, going to the interview! Call Adecco or some other employment staffing for part time work. You'll do better, and won't lose out on a ton of money.
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#72 Author of original report

That's great!

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

That is wonderful that Majestic Innovations has turned its employment offers, into a more reasonable explanation of what they do to prospective "independent distributors." I can only hope that they work to improve on that in the future so that people who are in need of true employment aren't misled or misguided on what the company is/does. However, when they have called me, I have been offered "full or part time employment" comments, so I hope that they aren't still doing this.

I have contacted Tim Woodcox directly. Through email. I received a form letter back from him, and realizing that it wasn't the response that I was needing, I then began filing complaints realizing that I probably wouldn't get very far through him without him defending his company and me not getting the answers that I wanted regarding the "referrals," and the fact that I had previously been there, and everything else. Tim has my phone number, and email address, and I would be more than happy to discuss anything with him. I tried to contact him before, and didn't like the response that I received. I want answers, not a form letter and polite brush off.
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#73 Author of original report

That's great!

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

That is wonderful that Majestic Innovations has turned its employment offers, into a more reasonable explanation of what they do to prospective "independent distributors." I can only hope that they work to improve on that in the future so that people who are in need of true employment aren't misled or misguided on what the company is/does. However, when they have called me, I have been offered "full or part time employment" comments, so I hope that they aren't still doing this.

I have contacted Tim Woodcox directly. Through email. I received a form letter back from him, and realizing that it wasn't the response that I was needing, I then began filing complaints realizing that I probably wouldn't get very far through him without him defending his company and me not getting the answers that I wanted regarding the "referrals," and the fact that I had previously been there, and everything else. Tim has my phone number, and email address, and I would be more than happy to discuss anything with him. I tried to contact him before, and didn't like the response that I received. I want answers, not a form letter and polite brush off.
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#74 Author of original report

That's great!

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

That is wonderful that Majestic Innovations has turned its employment offers, into a more reasonable explanation of what they do to prospective "independent distributors." I can only hope that they work to improve on that in the future so that people who are in need of true employment aren't misled or misguided on what the company is/does. However, when they have called me, I have been offered "full or part time employment" comments, so I hope that they aren't still doing this.

I have contacted Tim Woodcox directly. Through email. I received a form letter back from him, and realizing that it wasn't the response that I was needing, I then began filing complaints realizing that I probably wouldn't get very far through him without him defending his company and me not getting the answers that I wanted regarding the "referrals," and the fact that I had previously been there, and everything else. Tim has my phone number, and email address, and I would be more than happy to discuss anything with him. I tried to contact him before, and didn't like the response that I received. I want answers, not a form letter and polite brush off.
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#75 Author of original report

That's great!

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

That is wonderful that Majestic Innovations has turned its employment offers, into a more reasonable explanation of what they do to prospective "independent distributors." I can only hope that they work to improve on that in the future so that people who are in need of true employment aren't misled or misguided on what the company is/does. However, when they have called me, I have been offered "full or part time employment" comments, so I hope that they aren't still doing this.

I have contacted Tim Woodcox directly. Through email. I received a form letter back from him, and realizing that it wasn't the response that I was needing, I then began filing complaints realizing that I probably wouldn't get very far through him without him defending his company and me not getting the answers that I wanted regarding the "referrals," and the fact that I had previously been there, and everything else. Tim has my phone number, and email address, and I would be more than happy to discuss anything with him. I tried to contact him before, and didn't like the response that I received. I want answers, not a form letter and polite brush off.
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#76 Consumer Comment

I was contacted exactly like Amie described

AUTHOR: Heather - (U.S.A.)

Yesterday I was contacted by Laura from Majestic Innovations. She said, "We heard you were looking for part-time work?" I was really excited because I have, indeed, been trying to find a part-time job while I finish up college.

I asked her how she got my number, thinking a friend referred me, and she said she didn't know where they obtained my name and phone number.

She said the company dealt with "health" products, giving the impression it was a healt/fitness organization. She asked if I was going to college and what my major was, which is Art, graphic design emphasis. She asked if I enjoyed interacting with many kinds of people. She said my job would include office work, answering phones, helping customers, and perhaps some design work. I was curious as to why she set-up an interview (she told me to "dress nice") and was about to end the conversation before asking for a resume. I interrupted her and inquired if I should bring it, and she said, "Oh, yeah, bring that with you."

Upon querying my friends as to whether any of them had given Majestic Innovations my phone number, I discovered no one had. Thus, I did an internet search to get more information about them and happened upon this Rip-Off Report.

I also checked the Better Business Bureau's website, which only confirmed that a complaint had been filed, but stated that the business was otherwise in "satisfactory standing."

But the company's own website is what finally caused me to call Laura back to ask a few questions. Anyone curious as to what kind of business they are considering interviewing for should go to this page on their own website: http://www.symmetrydirect.com/twoodcox/

Laura did not answer, so I left a message stating I had some questions and asking her to call. Among my questions are:
1. Does the position involve sales? (Different from "assisting customers," as it was put.)
2. Does the position involve gaining new customers?
3. Is the position salary, hourly or commission?
4. I would like to know who referred me to them.
5. Will the position require an investment?

Needless to say, I doubt I will be making the interview appointment I made.

I'd like to thank Amie, who is obviously very upset over being manipulated. I'm mad too; I was excited to have a job opportunity, and now I feel like Laura's questions about my major, suggestion that I may do some design work for them, and directive to "dress nice" were completely insincere, and I feel foolish for having been excited.

A note to those supplying definitions of "pyramid schemes," etc.: A company can be technically legal and still be a Rip Off. See the "cash your paycheck in advance" businesses, and the "we give loans to anyone" businesses. Apparently, taking advantage of low-income and single-parent families in desperate situations is, technically, legal.
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#77 Consumer Comment

It's NOT an interview

AUTHOR: Brandy - (U.S.A.)

I called Tim Woodcox directly from the phone number that is on the BBB website. I told him I was someone else and I asked him if I could come in for an interview. He said that they "don't do" interviews. He said the only thing I could do was set up an appointment to come and see a company overview to get an idea of what the company does.

When I asked him how I would be paid he said it was a 1099 income & based on certain types of commissions and bonuses. He said that a lot of people do it part-time, spare-time to earn extra cash while others put more time into it to earn a lot more. He also told me it was sales and marketing with health wellness/ nutrtional products. He told me that if I came in that it would take about an hour and that a few other people would be there for the overview of the company when I first got there. NONE OF THAT WAS MISLEADING TO ME! He never said "interview", "job", or "employment".

I went on to ask a few other questions and he nicely answered all of them up front. I also asked him if he knew who Amie Thompson was. He said he knew of her but not exaclty who she was. I had just read Amie's entry where she says she contacted him directly so I asked him again! He said he has never talked to her in person or on the phone. He even asked me if I was her! I told him about what I had read that she wrote. He said he had gotten one eamil from her once but that he never got to talk to her directly. When I asked him about her he didn't really say much. He said if people want to beleive what she wants to write they can. Or they can find out for themselves.

Personaly I encourage someone reading entries on this website to go and get their answer for themselves. I would call Mr. Woodcox yourself. He is a good person. He has a great sense of humor!
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#78 Consumer Comment

I also have a few more observations

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

1.) Tim Woodcox admits in his letters, to myself, the BBB, and the Michigan State Attorney General that in fact, Majestic Innovations IS a branch off of Symmetry Direct. (So is Team of Destiny off of Quixtar, and Alticor....Many "multi-level marketing" companies do this.)

2.) I have personally gone out of my way to not attack anyone, except Tim Woodcox's treatment of myself, and (what I feel) his blatant misrepresentation of his company to the State of Michigan and to the local BBB. I feel personally that he has lied, and has misrepresented his company, and therefore am speaking out against this. I value honesty, and don't like being lied to or about. I have contacted Tim Woodcox directly, and it got me absolutely no where.

3.) Majestic Innovations has also been called Michigan Premiere, Symmetry Direct, Seeds of Success, Michigan Premiere Traning Center, and so on and so forth. All of these companies are/were located at the same address as Majestic Innovations. I also want to reiterate the fact that Quixtar also does this, and keeps changing its "multi-level marketing" names, and presenting a package that is esentially the same package of Amway from the 70's, just a new name and different format. This is a "company" that doesn't really know what it's name is! (While Alticor may employ many people, many more people have lost thousands of dollars investing in their "multi-level marketing".)

4.) Upon being greeted for my "group interview" in July of 2004, I was ushered into another part of the "office" where a mini-theatre was set up. There were supplemental products on a huge display table, and posters all over the place. The group that was there, about 25-30 people, were given a speech (by a very well spoken)by a motivational speaker, who spoke about "believing in the system" at least a half a dozen times. At that point, I wasn't quite sure what the heck was going on. From there, we were shown a motivational video, about... you guessed it. Selling the supplmental products. After the video, it was more talk about "the system," and then came the kicker, about having to purchase the supplements yourself, and then sell them to other people, and to recruit people under you to sell them. At that point, I got up and walked out, because I realized what I was in there for, and that it wasn't for me. It was a "multi-level marketing" "plan" very similiar to others I had been shown countless times before.

5.) Don't believe me. I am a complete stranger. Go to a "group interview" yourself. See what this is all about, and then post your own experience. I highly encourage it. Perhaps you will make hundreds of thousands of dollars. Or, perhaps like many others, you will lose a few thousand, and then wake up one day and realize that it is definitely not for you, and you have wasted a lot of time, money, and effort for nothing.
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#79 Author of original report

I know what I was told

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Brandy,

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt what I was told. I was asked SPECIFICALLY, if "I were looking for full or part time EMPLOYMENT." And I wasn't just asked this once. I was asked at least five times by people from Symmetry, Majestic Innovations, and by the company. Never at any time was I asked if "I was keeping my options open." In fact, he left a message stating this, and I had to call Louis back! He was not happy and tried to argue with me a few times when I explained that I wasn't interested, to take me off the list, and that I had already been to a meeting.

I agree with you 100%. I too encourage everyone to go to a "group interview." (Not employment though, right Brandy?) See what they are offering you. See how much money they want you to "invest" and to "believe in the system." (Brandy even has now admitted to following a script! Keep that in mind folks when Majestic Innovations calls you regarding full or part time employment.)

I am also going to ask you to not make assumptions about me. You don't know me, you only know what you have been told by your boss, and other "co-workers." I wouldn't be making such a big deal about this if I hadn't felt that I have been wronged by this "company." I feel it is important to share with other people that I feel that this is a scam, and that I don't personally think it's such a hot deal. I think it is a multi level marketing, or pyramid scheme, and I stand by that statement. I also don't like being lied about or too, and I feel that Tim Woodcox has done that. If in fact my name was "referred," I feel that he could have released that information to me, so that I could take care to see that that never happens in the future. A very select number of people have my phone number, (CELL PHONE, that is...) and that is why I am so incredulous to believe that someone would refer me to this company without my permission or knowledge. I just don't believe that.

Brandy, if this is such a great opportunity, why have I gotten contacted by so many former employees of this company who have lost so much money from it? Even those who invested a lot of time and effort? I can't believe that this is that great of an opportunity when too many other people say otherwise. I also have been to so many Amway, Mary Kay, and other Marketing Plan meetings, that my interest was peaked at Majestic Innovations. TO me, it was the same type of meeting. Same style... everything. Perhaps they should take a different approach upon luring people in to be "independent distributors."

I am not crazy, psycho, or whatever names you want to call me. I am pleased to hear that this program has worked for someone, because I can list 10 people that it has not.
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#80 Consumer Comment

Good Opportunity

AUTHOR: Brandy - (U.S.A.)

Amelia Thompson is wrong! I was in that office when Tim Woodcox got your complaint Amie. My cousin had brought me into the office to checkout the products the company had. Everything Amie is saying is exaggerated and not accurate!

People who read this who have been contacted by Majestic Innovations should go in to get their OWN opinion of the company. I find this true of any company. My cousin is a VERY honest ethical girl who does fairly well working with Symmetry and their great products! She doesn't work out of the local training centers that much because she just likes sharing the products for part-time income. Is Amie saying that she is BAD too? Come on, get a clue!

Amelia's opinion is a joke. It is obviously bias and an uneducated guess of what the company really does. Tim Woodcox has no idea who she is! I watched him ask everyone in his office if they had called her. A guy named Louis told him he had called Amie to see if she was keeping her work options open. NOT EMPLOYMENT options.
Everyone in that office goes out of their way to tell people that it is NOT a job! I have a copy of the outline that they use on the phone. It says exactly what the BBB.com website states. I sat there in that office for a whole day and watched what they do. The crap Amie is saying is flat out wrong! How can you possibly comment on a company that you have never worked with? Is it possible that some person some day might be new and say the wrong thing? Yes. I hope that it is still only human to make mistakes! I saw Tim Woodcox and other people in that office helping new people to build a successful business just like they did with my cousin. Correcting people when they are wrong, helping to explain and answer questions.

I take personal offense to your comments AMIE THOMPSON. When you say some of those inaccurate comments, you are putting down a great company that has helped my family in so many ways! The products have helped my grand parents to my own children!

That's not to say that it is not in a controversial industry. I don't care what Amway and Mary Kay did. Some people love it some hate it. We know what Amelia Thompson thinks! Did you know that Amway, Quixtar, TEAM, and Brit World Wide ARE the same company with in a company under ALTICORE. Alticore, which employees a ton of Grand Rapids people! As well as offer a business opportunity to those who choose to get involved! If you don't like the idea then DON'T DO IT!

Symmetry is in no way part of that company. Majestic Innovations is just a local office that one person in Symmetry opened! Who cares if it is in the same building as an old office? It can still be different people working there! You have no idea who has worked with who! Again who cares! You weren't lied too. You just MAYBE talked to one person who didn't know how to answer your questions. From the looks of it you where probably going crazy on the phone!! Or are just one of those people who is really nice on the phone and in person so you can go home, hide behind a computer and post web blogs slamming people and dragging their name through the mud? Boy, I'm sure glad you don't know the first and last name of anyone in my family!

Think about what you are saying. Why don't just go to the source and try and SOLVE the situation instead of bad mouthing individuals whom you have never met, publicly? Every person I ever saw in Tim Woodcox's office was setting appointment with people who answer different types of advertisements or people who got referred by someone who came into the office. I can see why Amie says none of her friends or family would be stupid enough to ever refer her?. she sounds crazy!! Even if someone saw the name on a referral program or one of those resume deals?who cares? Ask questions on the phone and either go in or don't go in to see if it's a good fit for you!

I hope anyone who reads this will realize the obvious...Amelia Thompson is nuts! Majestic Innovations or any other office that works with Symmetry may not be for everyone...but it is GREAT COMPANY for people who want a chance to live healthier, longer and earn some EXTRA income while doing it!

Sorry for being so angry, but people like Amelia Thompson upset me. They are the same people who drive waitresses crazy! Just like those parents that always gossip at our kid's school functions! ha ha haha.
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#81 Consumer Comment

Thanx you for you valuable informatiom

AUTHOR: Sarah - (U.S.A.)

I just wanted to thank everyone who has commented on here ands for the site info. I called and add in the paper today and was oddered an interivew ( referred to as a "company overview session") tomorrow evening.
I moved to the USA last year and this is my first interview since getting work permission. We are newly wed and short on money so I am very please that i found this info and were able to cancel instead of wasting my time and money on travel.
I have called the person Iwas dealing with a Mr Brent Chalko (i love the USA having caller ID) and left a message, he called back. When he asked why i cancelled I informed him i had researched and decided it was not for me. He mentioned this site and AMie and started to try and rebute the information but I cut him short and told him that he was wasting his time.
So again Thank you so much.
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#82 Author of original report

Multi-Level Marketing

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Amway. AKA, Quixtar, Team of Destiny, The Team.... and so on and so forth. (aka pyramid teams, schemes, multi-level marketing... whatever.)

Matt, I have no questions about pyramid schemes... excuse me "multi-level marketing."

I understand the concept. I also understand that hundreds of thousands of people have been ripped off, lied to, cheated out of hundreds, if not thousands of dollars, all because of "multi-level marketing schemes," aka pyramid schemes.

Amway, like Majestic Innovations, Symmetry Direct and others alike require that you pay a large lump sum to even be an "independent distributor."

They then ask you spend hundreds to thousands more on "inspirational books," conferences, tapes, and so on and so forth.

You can defend this all you want. If it has worked for you, that's great. However, I can point you in the directions of thousands more that it HASN'T worked for, and have been hurt and harmed by these marketing schemes. My best friend and her husband are having their home foreclosed on right now because of "Team of Destiny."

And your right. It's not employment. And I again, direct anyone back to Symmetry's own code of ethics, and Majestic Innovations is breaking this by referring to this as "full or part time employment."
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#83 Consumer Suggestion

Not employment

AUTHOR: Matt - (U.S.A.)

In multi-level marketing, you work with a company as an independent distributor, you dont work for them. I dont know much about the company you are complaining about or the people that work with them, but what I do know is that this industry is the very best way for ANY average individual, with a good work ethic, to get ahead financially.

If you look at traditional business, it can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars just to get started. In a lot of multi-level marketing companies it might only cost a couple hundred dollars to be in business for yourself; be your own boss. Amie, you wrote something about conferences that costed money to attend, and I was just wondering if they were mandatory to go. It sounds to me like some kind of a training seminar on how to effectively run your business. It seems like it would be something that you could choose whether or not to go to. Did you actually get involved with this company that you are writing about?

The reason I ask is because I get the Network Marketing Business Journal, and a couple of months ago, Symmetry was named company of the month throughout the whole world, so it sounds ligitiment to me. Like I stated before, I am not trying to argue or get on anyone's nerves, but it just upsets me when Multi-level marketing businesses get bashed by people. This business definitely works. Amie, you live in or near Grand Rapids, MI. One of the biggest businesses in Grand Rapids is Amway.

That is Multi-level marketing. Some people in Amway make like 1 million dollars in 12 hours, or some rediculous number like that. Just average people plugging into an above average system getting ahead. If you have any questions about the industry or anything of the sort, just ask and I will answer to the best of my knowledge. Have a great day.
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#84 Consumer Suggestion

Not employment

AUTHOR: Matt - (U.S.A.)

In multi-level marketing, you work with a company as an independent distributor, you dont work for them. I dont know much about the company you are complaining about or the people that work with them, but what I do know is that this industry is the very best way for ANY average individual, with a good work ethic, to get ahead financially.

If you look at traditional business, it can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars just to get started. In a lot of multi-level marketing companies it might only cost a couple hundred dollars to be in business for yourself; be your own boss. Amie, you wrote something about conferences that costed money to attend, and I was just wondering if they were mandatory to go. It sounds to me like some kind of a training seminar on how to effectively run your business. It seems like it would be something that you could choose whether or not to go to. Did you actually get involved with this company that you are writing about?

The reason I ask is because I get the Network Marketing Business Journal, and a couple of months ago, Symmetry was named company of the month throughout the whole world, so it sounds ligitiment to me. Like I stated before, I am not trying to argue or get on anyone's nerves, but it just upsets me when Multi-level marketing businesses get bashed by people. This business definitely works. Amie, you live in or near Grand Rapids, MI. One of the biggest businesses in Grand Rapids is Amway.

That is Multi-level marketing. Some people in Amway make like 1 million dollars in 12 hours, or some rediculous number like that. Just average people plugging into an above average system getting ahead. If you have any questions about the industry or anything of the sort, just ask and I will answer to the best of my knowledge. Have a great day.
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#85 Consumer Comment

Pyramid Scheme

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

This particular company, like Quixtar, Amway, and others, requires you to invest money (a large sum) initially, and then build your "client base underneat you." 90% of the former and/or current employers of Majestic Innovations that have contacted me, have in fact informed me, that they have lost thousands of dollars while trying to sell their "nutritional products." They are encouraged, as in any pyramid scheme, to sell their products and get return customers, and to GET PEOPLE TO SELL THE PRODUCT.... They are told to "believe in the system" and it will "work for them." They are encouraged to spend thousands of dollars for conferences, books, training materials, all while having to work full time hours, with no income.

Now I don't know about you, but this describes to me, a pyramid scheme. You are not told where you get your "referrals" from, you aren't told where your "start up money" goes to, and exactly what it is used for. You are giving money to someone, trying to get people under you to give you money too, and so on and so forth. It is a pyramid scheme.

My biggest issue with this company is the lies, decepit, and harm that it is causing to innocent people. Not to mention the fact that Tim Woodcox, not knowing that I don't stop until I have all my ducks in a row, thought he would be cute and lie to the State Attorney General's office. As of right now he, Symmetry Direct, Michigan Premiere, and who knows what other names they use, are under investigation.

Tim Woodcox will not tell where his "referrals" come from. I have it on good authority that they are coming from Monster, Careerbuilder, and other search sites. Including call lists generated by those not on the "Do Not Call" list. Tim Woodcox claims that an "Amy" has ever worked in his office. Why did myself and a few others meet with an Amy, and why did one of my sources work with her for several MONTHS, if she doesn't in fact work for this company? In fact, on Symmetry's on website, there is a link for an Amy, at the GRAND RAPIDS OFFICE! Why does this company keep changing its name? I have been called by several of them, all at the same place (the phone numbers all trace back to the same address) and many of them have used different names when calling to see if I "were interested in full or part time employment?"

Employment is someone paying you to do a job for them. It is not "investing" money and "believing in the system."
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#86 Consumer Suggestion

Misconception

AUTHOR: Matt - (U.S.A.)

Hey, my name is Matt and I work with a Network Marketing company. I was just curious what exactly your definition of a "pyramid scheme" is. I hear this now and then from people and what I generally hear from them is, "it's one of those things where the people at the top make all the money, and all the people at the bottom are doing all the work." If you think about that, you can compare that statement to any other business in the world.

Here is an example. In corporate America there is generally a CEO followed by a President, then a COUPLE of Vice Presidents, then MORE Upper Management than VP's, the MORE Middle Management than Upper Management, then MORE Lower Management than Upper Management, and finally MORE employees than Lower Management. If you think about it, all the money is at the top with the CEO, President, etc. It would be all screwed up if the employees made more than the CEO.

On another note, when you start with any Multi-level marketing business, you start at the top and build a business underneath you. The awesome part is that the person that enrolled you, and the people above them, want you to succeed because the more money you make, the more money they make. So they are going to help you, teach you, and train you so that you can build a successful business. When is the last time your boss taught you and trained you everything that they know. If they did that , you would be a threat to their position.

Bottom line, what you are referring to as a "pyramid scheme" is illegal. Where it all started was some guy named Panzi (sp) started a money scheme where you give him X amount of money, and then he will show you how to get 10 people to give you X amount of money. It is illegal because there is no good or service exchanged. It is just a money scheme. Don't get me wrong, there are some bad companys in the Multi-level Marketing industry just like any other industry, but there are also many good ones. There are thousands of companys out there. You should learn all about any company with an open mind before you make your decision to bash them. I am not trying to step on any toes, I just wanted to try to clear a few things up.
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#87 Consumer Comment

UPDATE First of all..

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

First of all, my name is "Amie."

Secondly, Majestic Innovations did call too much. And again, no one that I know would be stupid enough to sit through a meeting, let alone stay with the company long enough to give them my phone number. It's not going to happen. And not more than 10 times.... I don't buy that. (in sput

Third, they are a pyramid scheme.

Fourth, I didn't and would never lose a dime to a scheme setup like this. Anything that you have to invest money into, is not a "job." It's called investing in a higher up, aka pyramid scheme, mulit level marketing, whatever you want to call it, take your pick.

I find it interesting that there have been two rebuttals to my complaint, yet no one can even defend or comment what I am saying other than saying how great Symmetry Direct and Majestic Innovations are. This company is nothin more than a pyramid scheme, and is harming people with their "are you looking for full or part time employment,?" garbage.
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#88 Consumer Suggestion

Sounds like a lot of lack of communication to me

AUTHOR: Mike - (U.S.A.)

Amy what happened to you to make ya so mad? Did you lose money over this? Did someone physically hurt you? Sounds like you just got called a few to many times.
I used to have the same attitude as you did before I got my questions anwered. I will say this though, I have never been a part of any business like that or a pyramid deal thing or what ever you called them. I don't even know if I know what that really means anymore. All I know is that my ex-girl friend used to work with Symmetry for a while before we broke up. I remember when she first started how pissed I was. I thought it was a scam. Even though I knew there were legit companies like that...my Grand Rapids blood came out and I said "scam". That was before I even knew what they did. I sounded a lot like Amy. All though that type a business is not for me...I have to say most of the people in the office were my ex was introduced were pretty cool. I met Tim Woodcox personally three years ago.
Recently my roommate was called by Majestic innovations. From the little he could explain to me after they called him, it sounded a lot like what my ex had done so we searched Majestic Innovaitons on the bbb.com and google to see what it was. Just like Amy says, its is in the same building with a different name were my ex went three years ago. When I say Tim Woodcox's name I recognised it. His name and phone number was on the bbb website so I thought I would call him to see if he knew what was up. I was really confused because I met him when my ex worked with Symmetry in that same building. Tim was cool, he let me ask him any question I had. He told me how that old office was ran by someone else who doesn't live in Michigan anymore and that when there lease was up he opened his own so that there would still be an office in this area. He stayed in the same building but moved to a smaller practical suite. As for the name change I think he said he named it Majestic Innovations because the old name was the name that some one else gave to their office. Since everyone who is part of Symmetry is indepent he had to name it something and Tim's place was taken! lol Really he said it was like people back in the day used to work out of their homes they didn't call their house the name of the parent company.
To me it reminds me of when my aunt did Mary Kay. Now that not something I would not do either because I am a guy, but I know some people say that is a pyramid thing too! I thought it was just ladies sharing make-up. But she did that out of her home and I think they had meetings at the mall once a month or something.??. If I remember right Tim said it's kinda similar but instead of working out of a home or resturaunt, sometimes people will open a local training center where more people can work out of. After talking with him on the phone, and seeing how much they helped my ex back when I was with her, I thought they were all really cool nice people. Of coarse just like ANYTHING else there are going to be some wierdos involed who try to cut corners but where isn't that? My job has a lot of idiots that screw up everyday and mis-inform people.
I guess I am not on either side of the line, I just felt bad when I saw Amy's Rip off report deal and she was slamming a guy that I thought was cool when I met him three years ago and even when I called him recently. It makes me wonder if Amy even has met or talked to Tim Woodcox or if she is just venting all of her anger/frustration at him because he was the only one willing to respond trying to give some sort of explination to what ever upset her. It doesn't sound like he was even the one who ever called her? Either way I guess it doen't matter. I guess if I was someone who had questions about what it is that they do at Majestic Innovations / Symmetry or what ever any of their other offices may be named...just do what I did, pick up the phone and ask him directly, his number is public. He doesn't seem to be hiding.
Also...Tim found out who referred my rommate to someone in the office. It was his girlfriends friend form work. We confirmed it.lol I thought it was funny. My roommate went in and said it was cool, just not for him right now.
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#89 Consumer Comment

Nothing but a pawn....

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

I find it interesting for someone who didn't have much time to invest in a "business" that you would defend it so blatantly. Why is that? Have you made a small fortune doing this pyramid scheme..... excuse me, marketing plan, or are you a pawn for the company who has fallen into the trap of believing what it tells you?

A pyramid scheme does nothing but make it's higher ups money. Do you truly believe that people are going to buy $50.00 vitamins from you when they can order them on eBay for $5.00? And do you truly believe that by paying $2500 for a conference that you are going to learn something from it? (Probably nothing more than to hear speeches of the higher ups telling you that "you can do it!" Of course you can. If you were one of them.

From Symmetry's own website, code of ethics, and I quote: "No member company of the Association shall engage in any deceptive, unlawful or unethical consumer or recruiting practice. Member companies shall ensure that no statements, promises or testimonials are made which are likely to mislead consumers or prospective salespeople." OH REALLY?! Then why in the HELL does the marketing scammers, I mean workers, call and ask if you are "searching for full or part time employment?" That seems deceptive to me... and overtly so. That's breaking rule number one of the "code of ethics." (Which are crap.)

And then we have this little bit: "Sellers shall truthfully identify themselves, their company, their products and the purposes of their solicitation to the prospective customer. Contact with the consumer shall be made in a reasonable manner and during reasonable hours to avoid intrusiveness. A demonstration or sales presentation shall discontinue upon the request of the consumer." Truthfully identify themselves huh? That's interesting. Do they also tell people and are they required to tell people that when they purchase the vitamins that they are joining a pyramid scheme, excuse me again... there's that word coming back, marketing plan similar to Quixtar, Team of Destiny, and Amway?

And what do you know? They even have a section on PYRAMID SCHEMES: "For the purpose of this Code, pyramid or endless chain schemes shall be considered consumer transactions actionable under this Code. The Code Administrator shall determine whether such pyramid or endless chain schemes constitute a violation of this Code in accordance with applicable federal, state and/or local law or regulation."

Let's see what the dictionary says about a pyramid scheme shall we?
pyramid scheme
n.
A fraudulent money-making scheme in which people are recruited to make payments to others above them in a hierarchy while expecting to receive payments from people recruited below them. Eventually the number of new recruits fails to sustain the payment structure, and the scheme collapses with most people losing the money they paid in.

Does this sound familiar? It sure does to me!

And they leave it up to the Administrator to decide what is a pyramid scheme and what isn't? Awfully suspicious!

If I could, I would tell you, Tim Woodcox, and others like him to give it, get real jobs, and that they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for knowingly and willingly participating in pyramid schemes and ripping real people off who truly need jobs and income.

Go ahead and read the Code of Ethics yourself. I also encourage you to do more research on pyramid schemes. You might just change your mind. Symmetry, Majestic Innovations, and whatever else they are calling themselves these days are nothing but pyramid schemes, and you my friend are nothing more than a pawn.
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#90 UPDATE EX-employee responds

I use to think it was a scam too but it's legit. I've done much research having worked for the company too.

AUTHOR: James - (U.S.A.)

I wanted to address the issue about the different company names first. Yes, it's true that a lot of pyramid schemes have different company names, but the reason why the Symmetry Corporation has several names is because the company is consisted of INDEPENDENT distributors, working on a 1099 income (which is basically comission). This means that anyone can sign up with Symmetry and become an Independent seller of its products. Symmetry teaches them how to collaborate and create an office and training center for themselves and prospective distributors of Symmetry products.

Symmetry does not provide money for these distributors to open or operate the offices nor can they use the Symmetry name as the name of their office. This is because: 1) Since these are independent distributors, it is hard for Symmetry to know how many offices are being opened everyday, thus Symmetry can't keep track of the offices unless they're reported back to Symmetry that a new office has been opned. So Symmetry doesn't want the offices to use the Symmetry name just in case an office is running on a bad code of ethics, which Symmetry does not condone. So when people open different offices selling Symmetry products, they have to come up with their own name. 2) An office is the distributor's own business. All Symmetry is doing is providing the distributor with the products and the distributor is running his/her own business.

Symmetry does as much as it can to teach these distributors how to do business properly and ethically. Symmetry is a member of the Better Business Bureau and the Direct Selling Association. It's code of ethics can be found on its website www.symmetrydirect.com. The offices are also training centers. At my old office, we had Power Hour on Tuesdays and Thursdays to train new business partners. These office trainings were free and they taught you how to sell your products both ethically and efficiently.

They were really nice people and my supervisor did as much as she can to help me, but I just didn't have time to do this business cuz I'm a first year college student and school takes up a lot of my time. However, I do think that this is a good opportunity for people who are tired of what they're doing right now and want to find something that can possibly be better for them. I think this business is good for people who have time to spend on it. I mean you have to work really hard in the beginning to build your network of clients, but then in the end, it's worth it because you get residual income. This means that if you get a client to buy $50 worth of products per month and you get $5 from it, then you'd get that $5 every month as long as you keep that client, which is easy if you know how to treat your customers right.

But the real way to make money in this business is not to get as many customers as you can, instead it is more beneficial to get as many business partners as you can who will help you get more clients. It's easier to sell 10 products if you have 10 people who sell 1 product each than if you had to sell 10 products yourself. Like I said, I do believe this is a good way for some people to make money, possibly even $100,000, that is if you build a steady network of clients and business partners for about 5 years. For some people, they can make $100,000 in 2 years, for others it takes almost 10 years. It jsut depends. There are no garauntees and these people let you know that. It's just an opportunity and you choose not to take it. There are a lot of good incentives in this company, you just know what you're doing in this business. A lot of people fail and quit and then call it a scam. I'm not working for Symmetry now b/c I'm too busy but I plan on getting back into the business in a couple of years.

If this helped anyone, then I'm glad. If there are still any other questions, please feel free to write a rebuttal to this post. Thanks!
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