• Report: #622933

Complaint Review: Mileage Shop and Alternative Gas Solutions

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  • Submitted: Tue, July 13, 2010
  • Updated: Thu, January 31, 2013

  • Reported By: Lab Tech — San Francisco California United States of America
Mileage Shop and Alternative Gas Solutions
Prescott AZ Prescott, Arizona United States of America

Mileage Shop and Alternative Gas Solutions Alternative Gas Solutions mileageshop.com, Hydro Fuel Generator, scammed, hho kits don't work, hydrogen kit scam, no support, ships in 3 weeks Internet Prescott, Arizona

*Consumer Comment: Suggested viewing....

*Consumer Comment: What does the EPA have to do with this?

*Consumer Comment: Screw you EPA report!!!!

*Consumer Comment: But Linda...

*General Comment: response to Stavros

*Consumer Comment: Linda..

*Consumer Comment: Tell my 1999 HHO doesn't work

*Consumer Comment: The Physics

*Consumer Comment: Still Inconsistent

*General Comment: Harmony is found in the middle.

*Consumer Comment: SCAM !!!!

*Consumer Comment: 5 Years Charles

*Consumer Comment: Ronny Ronny

*Consumer Comment: I WANT A FUEL CELL...

*General Comment: Crap, Crap, Crap, and something irrelevant

*Consumer Comment: Oh I see!!!!!

*Consumer Comment: SCAM

*Consumer Comment: A little more for ya!

*Consumer Comment: What do the studies have to say?

*Consumer Comment: Many reports posted here,,,,

*General Comment: Cliff Notes of the previous two post

*Consumer Comment: EPA update!!!!!

*Consumer Comment: This is just one of many kits that do work!

*General Comment: Okay....

*Consumer Comment: Like I said

*General Comment: "How does this translate into 5 years Charles"

*Consumer Comment: Might be why...

*Consumer Comment: Yes, "Lets set the record straight"

*General Comment: Wow...yup fail of the day.

*Consumer Comment: Last post: LINK FAILS

*Consumer Comment: DOT report on HHO! One of many reports!

*Consumer Comment: No one is overwhelmed...

*Consumer Comment: Kevin get a clue

*Consumer Comment: Kindly post links or web addresses...

*Consumer Comment: Hope, wants and needs.

*General Comment: That didn't take long...

*General Comment: Thanks Jeremy!

*General Comment: Charles would never lie....

*Consumer Suggestion: California agency dedicated to HYDROGEN

*Consumer Comment: HAHAHAHA

*UPDATE Employee: Lets set the record straight

*General Comment: Ha!

*General Comment: Mileage Shop Website!

*General Comment: Guys...give it up...you have lost this one.

*Consumer Comment: I tried it on my 1987 Toyota..

*General Comment: Hey everyone, I'm a SMUCK!

*Consumer Comment: Keven's misconceptions

*Consumer Comment: To kevin the expert.

*General Comment: If I'm wrong, show that evidence...

*Consumer Comment: Kevin you are wrong

*Consumer Comment: Focus on the Facts

*General Comment: I study the real physics...not automotive homeopathy.

*General Comment: Kevin What kind of Physics are you studying

*Consumer Comment: This will cure everything....

*Consumer Comment: Physics ??

*Consumer Comment: Suckers..

*Consumer Comment: Sorry but its working for me

*Consumer Comment: The C.A.R.B. # does not mean much..

*Consumer Comment: fraud pure and simple

*General Comment: This technology does wor

*Consumer Comment: Getting your system to work properly

*Consumer Comment: Bought two HHO units from the Mileage Shop

*Consumer Comment: Extremely Satisfied Customer

*Consumer Comment: Results May Vary - In My Case NONE

*Consumer Comment: mileage shop does not stand behind their products

*General Comment: One more thing...

*General Comment: More of the same....

*Consumer Suggestion: To Kevin

*Consumer Comment: More proof that HHO is being used already!

*Consumer Comment: common arguments to HHO answered.

*General Comment: Perfect:)

*General Comment: Still Here...but busy actually WORKING TO SOLVE our energy issues.

*Consumer Comment: Mileage Shop

*Consumer Comment: Thought this was a common Goal?

*Consumer Comment: Company info

*Consumer Suggestion: Do your homework!

*Consumer Suggestion: OKOKOK! EPA/ CARB TESTING RESULTS!!!!

*Consumer Suggestion: **update Renewable energy incentives**

*Consumer Comment: here you go kevin

*General Comment: The Arkansas Physicist (kevin)

*Consumer Suggestion: here you go sorry they blocked this info.

*REBUTTAL Individual responds: HMMM!

*Consumer Comment: MileageShop.com products

*General Comment: From the Arkansas Physicist

*Consumer Suggestion: A constructive outlook.

*General Comment: Reply to Jeremys original reply

*General Comment: Wow... projection..... Yea well my mom can beat up your mom!!!

*Consumer Suggestion: Kevin you need to go to a better collegef

*General Comment: There is very little to respond to here.

*REBUTTAL Individual responds: Conspiracy Theory?

*General Comment: tell the hydrogen bomb that it cant make energy

*REBUTTAL Individual responds: Brother?

*General Comment: Welcome back Jeremy!

*Consumer Comment: LMFAO!

*Consumer Suggestion: Your third party testing is here!

*REBUTTAL Individual responds: Response to your rebuttal

*Consumer Suggestion: Further help to avoid being ripped off!

*Consumer Comment: if it doesn't throttle up its not working

*Consumer Comment: No violation of anything..

*Consumer Comment: Where is that big warehouse?

*Consumer Comment: Speaking of "youranidiot"..No amount of reason, logic, proof, science or common sense seems to matter...

*Consumer Comment: Here it is boys and girls!

*General Comment: ok......

*Consumer Comment: Look, this is the REAL issue...

*General Comment: to ronny g

*Consumer Comment: If you can understand the physics...

*General Comment: please show documentation of 100% combustion efficiency!!!

*Consumer Comment: Combustion efficiency...

*General Comment: flynrider and others

*Consumer Comment: He didn't say "thermodynamic efficiency"

*Consumer Comment: Response to Kevin...

*General Comment: Response to Jeremy

*General Comment: This "smells of scam"

*Consumer Comment: also to note...

*Consumer Comment: Good luck with it.

*General Comment: I am curious as I drive 3000 miles per week

*Consumer Comment: Well the internet has helped the lazy..

*Consumer Comment: Good research job

*Consumer Comment: Don't hold your breath...

*Consumer Comment: Still waiting

*Consumer Comment: Snake oil anyone???

*Consumer Suggestion: HHO systems do work!

*Consumer Comment: Thanx Kevin

*General Comment: The Physicist Responds

*REBUTTAL Owner of company: Response from the Branch Manager of the Mileage Shop!

*Author of original report: More interesting info

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Hello Everyone,

This is my first time doing this. I'm not the type of person to bad mouth someone on the internet. I realize every business has its ups and downs, but sometimes you run into a company that really pushes your buttons.

I would give you the name of the owner if I knew it. The guy called himself Joshua, but I doubt that was his real name. Everything about this business is suspicious. On the website it says you will get you HHO Kit by priority mail. It took over 4 weeks to get my unit. After calling and calling their support line, I finally reached a man named Joshua who said my unit was not in stock and they would send it out to me as soon as it was in stock. Well, I have a question. Why was I not contacted and told this directly, why did I have to wait 2 weeks to hear anything and they didn't even attempt to call me, I had to call them. And then another 2 weeks to get my unit. 

When the unit arrived it was missing some of the accessories showcased in the product detail pictures. When I called in to get a refund for my HHO kit purchase, Joshua or whatever his name is told me they would ship out the additional parts as soon as they received them from their supplier. WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your telling me I'm going to have to wait another 4 weeks. 

I asked them to honor their bs "lifetime warranty" and they told me that I had to have used the system to qualify. This means my money would have been tied up for 2 months while they sort out what they have in stock and what they don't. The guy who answers the phone probably works out of his garage or something, b/c every time I called I heard a dog barking in the background and a lot of background noise. 

This has been a huge waist of my time. I told the guy to keep the extra parts and I would be filing a fraud complaint with my bank.... Their Hydrogen kit is a scam. They sell things they don't have in stock. My bank is currently in the process of getting me my money back. Do yourself a favor and stay away from http://www.mileageshop.com .


This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 07/13/2010 10:22 PM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Mileage-Shop-and-Alternative-Gas-Solutions/Prescott-Arizona-/Mileage-Shop-and-Alternative-Gas-Solutions-Alternative-Gas-Solutions-mileageshopcom-Hyd-622933. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.

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1Author 120Consumer 5Employee/Owner
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#1 Consumer Comment

Suggested viewing....

AUTHOR: Starvros - ()

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=NZ&v=LSnSxAMjXq8&hl=en-GB
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#2 Consumer Comment

What does the EPA have to do with this?

AUTHOR: Starvros - ()

The EPA never did any testing on HHO devices as far as I know. The only thing the EPA had to do with this at all was that the emissions lab used for testing was EPA certified. Any legit agency that has tested these said they did not get positive results. The only reports of positive results seem to be unsubstantiated testimony most likely by those with a vested interest in the scam.
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#3 Consumer Comment

Screw you EPA report!!!!

AUTHOR: chris - (United States of America)

I purchased the HHO kit from mileage shop and installed it on a 1995 Chevrolet 2500 truck. I have been intersted in this for two years and read the good and bad about the kits and made the decision the try one. Well guess what...I am getting results. I have gained hp, my engine runs smoother and last but not least i have 7 mpg gain.

I dont care if the EPA has tested this thing or not, that does not change the fact that it works on my vehicle. I also do not care how it works nor do i care why it works it only matters to me that it does work.

I am not going to try to convince ANYONE to run out and buy one and install it on their own vehicle. Buy one or dont buy one i dont care what other people do and i dont care how many kits mileage shop sells. But i do know that it works on my truck and that is good enough for me.

As for all of you who dont believe all i can say is that you are never going to believe untill you try it and see it for yourself. I also did not believe and took the chance of wasting 500.00$ but i was wrong.

My engine had 9532 miles on it when i installed the HHO kit, mabyr this helps me mabye not, i dont know and again dont care. I only care that it does do what they say it does and i plan to buy two more soon. This was definatley not a waste of money for me
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#4 Consumer Comment

But Linda...

AUTHOR: Starvros - (United States of America)

I did not mean to imply you were storing Hydrogen in your vehicle, I only used it as an example that even if your vehicle was not producing it and you had to get it from a hydrogen filling station it still has serious drawbacks despite any benefits.

If you are truly getting a 3mpg increase using Potassium Hydroxide and distilled water (which sounds kinda toxic and caustic to me) all well and good if we take your word for it but that would still be far from the claims of these HHO scammers make and not convinced one bit, sorry. I only know any and all tests conducted by Canada environment, Popular mechanics, Dateline NBC investigation which are pretty legit all concluded if the HHO generators did anything at all it caused an increase in fuel consumption and is concluded a total scam and waste of money....well that is until PROVEN otherwise. I am open to see any proof conducted by any legit sanctioned testing facility or legit media.
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#5 General Comment

response to Stavros

AUTHOR: Linda - (United States of America)

I am not saying there isn't a cost to produce hydrogen.  I purchase Potassium Hydroxide for about $4 a pound and distilled water @$.88 per gallon, the electricity to produce the hydrogen gas is the hydrogen generator that only produces hydrogen when the engine is running.  There is no hydrogen to store.   A pound of POH lasts a very long time and the distilled water lasts about 3 months.  I don't need to prove that the hydrogen generator works because as I said before,  I know that I know that I know.  3mpg is significant with the price of gas going up.
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#6 Consumer Comment

Linda..

AUTHOR: Starvros - (United States of America)

First I will say it is okay that you did not come here to argue but just to see what others were saying about it.  However you must realize this site is called "ripoff report" and is certainly not a site for reviews of a product but to report ripoffs and give the vendors and consumers an avenue to rebutt and debate.

Now if there is any debate of effeciency be it thermal, mechanical, fuel etc that is best left to the physicists. However some of us with even the most basic understanding of high school physics understand the laws of conservation or in other words energy cannot be created or destroyed, but it can be transformed.

You mention that you know your 2012 Eqinox is not 100% fuel efficient and I would agree. In order for it to be 100% efficient it would need to be creating it's own fuel as you drive. Now if it was more then 100% fuel efficient you would end up with a surplus of fuel after you drive it...make sense? The fuel you burn while driving had to be drilled out of the earth, refined, delivered to the filling station, and then pumped into your vehicle where it is converted from chemical to mechanical energy to move you along. Does not sound very efficient to me at all (granted it is probably a lean burn engine and burns very close to 100% of the air fuel mixture in the combustion chamber). How much of that energy is lost in heat and friction is another story.

That aside I don't think anyone is arguing that there are not some benefits to burning hydrogen. One for example is no dangerous emmisions and that as far as a fuel cell is it certainly more efficient then fossel fuels.
Problem is this...your vehicle does not produce its own fuel...it took a lot of energy to do that. Well it also takes a lot of energy to extract hydrogen from water. So if using your gasoline engine to convert electricity to extract hydrogen there is certainly a cost, has to be. Now let's say you drove a vehicle that runs on only hydrogen but did not make it's own. You need to get it at a hydrogen filling station.

Well consider where the energy comes from to create the electricity to convert to hydrogen. Maybe have to burn coal? Not very good for the air quality is it?

So those that would say "it is the oil companies stopping this" is nonsense. What is stopping it is the cost to convert, and storage since it tends to evaporate and also costs a lot of energy to store a volume of compressed liquid that can be carrried in a car and that energy also costs.

In a nutshell, while there is not much of an argument that running on hydrogen has some advantages it does not change the minds of anyone claiming this HHO system is a ripoff until it is proven that the amount of energy it takes to convert the water to hydrogen somehow manages to break the laws of conservation and give us OVER 100% effeciency, or in simpler terms... more energy out then energy in. That seems to be the claim this company is making with no sanctioned testing or scientific backup whatsoever. No need for any swearing under oath, just show us the proof.
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#7 Consumer Comment

Tell my 1999 HHO doesn't work

AUTHOR: Linda - (United States of America)

I am not here to argue with anyone.  I have a hydrogen generator on my 1999 Chevrolet Silverado 5.3L.  I will tell you we have had a 3mpg increase  and greatly increased power, not that we needed more power, but it sure doesn't hurt.  It is sad to see intelligent people debating whether this is a scam or not.  I know what I know and would swear to this under oath.  I came to this website to see what others are saying about mileage shop and Alternative gas solutions, not to see this debate.    I suggest that the nay-sayers try it before you make your educated uneducated judgements.  You really do not know what you are talking about.  As for our hydrogen generator, we have had some issues and have returned two of them for exchange or repair.  We are currently working with the company to find a solution to these issues.  I highly recommend that you do research and choose a reputable business when you purchase a hydrogen fuel cell.  I also know our 2012 Equinox is not 100% fuel efficient, I don't know where anyone would come to the conclusion that our vehicles are running at 100% efficiency.
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#8 Consumer Comment

The Physics

AUTHOR: Isaiah - (United States of America)

The hydrogen and oxygen that we use in industry and healthcare are generated by electrolysis of water.  Water molecules cannot be easily divided.  It takes a lot of energy to do this.

A machine large enough to make the hydrogen needed to run an auto on water would be approximately the size of that automobile.   The electrical energy required to do this would be more than the energy harvested by burning the hydrogen.  

Letters written to the contrary?  . . . by shills.
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#9 Consumer Comment

Still Inconsistent

AUTHOR: Deceived - (United States of America)

Babaji, I dont think anyone cares any more.  Mileage Shop and Alternative Gas Solutions
have been caught red handed lying several times.  How do you overcome their consistent
deception and the half truths they use to sale their products.   Your comments are late in the game and inconsistent also.

You state in your comments:  So, I'm contacting friends in the Prescott area and I'm giving them the
address stated above, to see if what is actually there coincides with what the good gentlemen stated above, mainly I remember an office, a manufacturing plant, and some car bays to do installation.  If that is there, I'm buying one of these babies,

Based on your comments, why would you contact friends in the Prescott area to see if these people are actually there.  It would appear that you have already been to some location. 

I guess your friends will validate your memory???? 
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#10 General Comment

Harmony is found in the middle.

AUTHOR: Babaji - (United States of America)

I am haven't bought a hydrogen fuel cell, yet, but have been doing a lot of research on the hydrogen fuel cell.  I'm thinking about buying one from AGS Or MileageShop, knowing quite well, as a 38 year old person who holds a B.S. in chemical engineering (along with extensive training in other disciplines as well), that this is possible.  I've read all the chatter and mumbojumbo and chit chat and back forth name calling, useful information spattered here and there (very laborious to read I might add) and have come to the conclusion that you are both right and both wrong and that if you'd all stop fighting each other, and put your heads together, you'd probably make a pretty good hydrogen fuel cell.  It's obvious that in larger vehicles there needs to be more electricty going to the hydrogen unit to make more hydrogen gas.  So the solution lies in getting more electricity into the car from another source besides the alternator or the battery, or improving the alternator or batter so there is enough elecricity available.  I would also like to add that anyone who doesn't focus on the solution, and continues to focus on the problem or overanylyze to the point of belittling, one, is not very intelligent, or two is just a troll/mole for the oil companies.  I'm a scientist myself, and as any good scientist knows, you have to experiment in order to get the results, you have to get your hands on it and try it out to see for sure, and for yourself.  So, I'm contacting friends in the Prescott area and I'm giving them the address stated above, to see if what is actually there coincides with what the good gentlemen stated above, mainly I remember an office, a manufacturing plant, and some car bays to do installation.  If that is there, I'm buying one of these babies, and putting it on this little Geo Metro 3 cylinder I just bought.  Wouldnt that be cool if I got that sucker doing like 70-80 mpg.  I'm going to find out for sure, and for myself, and I will report back, to settle this once and for all.
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#11 Consumer Comment

SCAM !!!!

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

Hydrogen fuel enhancement: From Wikipedia.

This article recently underwent a major revision or rewrite, and may need further review. You can help Wikipedia by assisting in the revision.

Hydrogen fuel enhancement is the process of using a mixture of hydrogen and conventional hydrocarbon fuel in an internal combustion engine, typically in a car or truck, to improve fuel economy,power output, or both. While the term may be used to refer to different ways of implementing this concept, it more commonly refers to the controversial scam of using hydrogen produced through anelectrolysis system on-board the vehicle. Scientifically accepted methods include storing hydrogen on the vehicle as a second fuel, or reforming conventional fuel into hydrogen with a catalyst.There has been a great deal of research into fuel mixtures, such as gasoline and nitrous oxide injection. Mixtures of hydrogen and hydrocarbons are no exception.

These sources suggest that a small efficiency increases is sometimes possible. However in all of these experiments the hydrogen has come from an external source, hydrogen created by electrolysis "on board" must always consume more energy than is saved in order to not violate conservation of energy laws.

Many of these sources also suggest that modifications to the engine's air-fuel ratio, ignition timing, emissions control systems, electronic control systems and possibly other design elements, might be required in order to obtain any significant results. Due to the inherent complexity of these subsystems, a necessity of modern engine design and emissions standards, such claims made by proponents of hydrogen fuel enhancement are difficult to substantiate and always disputed.

To date, Hydrogen fuel enhancement products have not been specifically addressed by the United States Environmental Protection Agency. No research devices or commercial products have reports available as per the "Motor Vehicle Aftermarket Retrofit Device Evaluation Program."

Environment Canada does have a research paper on the subject. In tests done in their laboratory in 2004 they found no improvement in engine efficiency or fuel economy. 
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#12 Consumer Comment

5 Years Charles

AUTHOR: Deceived - (United States of America)

I see Charles couldn't be bothered to respond to "his claim" that he worked for mileage shop for 5 years.  I guess when you get "caught" telling a lie, there's nothing more to say.  It makes you wonder what else this website is "bending" the truth or outright lying.

The ongoing debate whether or not this technology works will likely continue until the end of time. It does work on my car after I traded in the mileage shop junk for a "working" system from www.fuelfromh20.com.  The guys there tell me they have taken in a lot of mileage shop trade-ins that didn't work.

The main issue "skirted" here is the reputation, claims and sale practices made by alternative gas solutions and mileage shop.  They can't get the measurements right on their extreme generator and they have trouble when to start or stop a stopwatch when measuring the gas output and so on.

The point here is mileage shop feels the need to provide only half truths about their generators and a lot of misleading information designed to "sucker" their customers into buying this stuff.  Once the customer realizes they've been hosed, there's no recourse for them to get a refund.  Mileage shop has no accountability.

As I mentioned in an earlier post:
            
            alternativegassolutions.com started in July 2008 (3 years 10 months) 
            mileageshop.com started in April 2010 ( 2 years 1 month)

Oh look, it appears they may have started another website.  This one is called                    

                                                    www.globalenergydevices.com.

Don't know if Charles has been working at this website for 5 years or if they are the same people. However, the "mode of operation" is very similar.  The generators look similar but with a new name.

                                                              Buyer Beware

I see a pattern here.  May this ripoff report is doing some good
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#13 Consumer Comment

Ronny Ronny

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (USA)

I would charge you 500 plus the cost of the equipment you buy on your own. :-)   The site I gave is the governments site you fool. Three is obviously not going to be anything constructive to come out of this bantor back and forth. Just don't slap any old HHO kit in your vehicle consult someone who has done this before with success at least and you too will be successful.

Jeremy
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#14 Consumer Comment

I WANT A FUEL CELL...

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

Can anyone post what that costs to have?
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#15 General Comment

Crap, Crap, Crap, and something irrelevant

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

"http  ://www1   .eere.   energy   .gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/production/electro_processes   .html

Here are some studies done by third party universities and Fuel efficiency testing labs. 
http    ://www    .divshare.    com/download/15625428-3d3
http    ://www    .divshare.    com/direct/11410456-4d2    .doc
http    ://www    .divshare.    com/direct/11412010-3d1    .pdf"

Well, the first link has nothing at all to do with these devices.  We all know fuel cells work.  the next three "papers" don't seem to be in any kind of journal...and the links seem to be bad anyways.  However I would consider wiki a better source than random material some HHO pushing con puts up on the internet which is what I am sure these are.  Well...I mean until someone such as yourself goes and edits wiki and actual scientist and engineers have to clean up the mess you make.

Kevin
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#16 Consumer Comment

Oh I see!!!!!

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (USA)

Oh so I guess you can use a site that has anonymous updates to that information. This information is  obviously flawed since I have provided info that they have been tested and found to increase efficiency in the combustion process for many years now.It must have been you or kevin who updated the wiki file. I'll make sure I correct that info on wiki so people are up to date.
Check out why the EPA doesn't approve fuel economy devices.

http:    //beforeitsnews.    com/story/710/100/Suppressed_Inventions_by_the_EPA.     html


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#17 Consumer Comment

SCAM

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

Hydrogen fuel enhancementFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThis article recently underwent a major revision or rewrite, and may need further review. You can help Wikipedia by assisting in the revision.Hydrogen fuel enhancement is the process of using a mixture of hydrogen and conventional hydrocarbon fuel in an internal combustion engine, typically in a car or truck, to improve fuel economy,power output, or both. While the term may be used to refer to different ways of implementing this concept, it more commonly refers to the controversial scam of using hydrogen produced through anelectrolysis system on-board the vehicle. Scientifically accepted methods include storing hydrogen on the vehicle as a second fuel, or reforming conventional fuel into hydrogen with a catalyst.There has been a great deal of research into fuel mixtures, such as gasoline and nitrous oxide injection. Mixtures of hydrogen and hydrocarbons are no exception.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] These sources suggest that a small efficiency increases is sometimes possible. However in all of these experiments the hydrogen has come from an external source, hydrogen created by electrolysis "on board" must always consume more energy than is saved in order to not violate conservation of energy laws.Many of these sources also suggest that modifications to the engine's air-fuel ratio, ignition timing, emissions control systems, electronic control systems and possibly other design elements, might be required in order to obtain any significant results. Due to the inherent complexity of these subsystems, a necessity of modern engine design and emissions standards, such claims made by proponents of hydrogen fuel enhancement are difficult to substantiate and always disputed.To date, Hydrogen fuel enhancement products have not been specifically addressed by the United States Environmental Protection Agency. No research devices or commercial products have reports available as per the "Motor Vehicle Aftermarket Retrofit Device Evaluation Program."[9] Environment Canada does have a research paper on the subject. In tests done in their laboratory in 2004 they found no improvement in engine efficiency or fuel economy. [10]
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#18 Consumer Comment

A little more for ya!

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (USA)

The science behind HHO is well documented. In 1974, Houseman and Cerini of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), California Institute of Technology (CIT), prepared a report for the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) entitled On-Board Hydrogen Generator for a Partial Hydrogen Injection Internal Combustion Engine.

Also in 1974 at JPL, CIT, Hoehn and Dowy produced a report for the 9th Inter society Energy Conversion Engineering Conference, entitled Feasibility Demonstration of a Road Vehicle Fueled with Hydrogen Enriched Gasoline. The Hoehn and Dowy research included on-board storage tanks to supply the hydrogen enhancement.

There now exists a long history of studies and papers documenting the beneficial affects of HFI. Since the early studies in 1974, there have been ongoing studies and testing of HHO principles and applications. You will find an oft-cited list of these on many HHO web sites. More notable among these is a 1995 study and paper from the University of Birmingham, UK, Fractional addition of hydrogen to internal combustion engines by exhaust gas fuel reforming where the process yielded benefits in improved combustion stability and reduced nitrogen oxides and hydrocarbon emissions.

California Environmental Engineering (CEE) has tested this technology and found reduction on all exhaust emissions. They subsequently stated: CEE feels that the result of this test verifies that this technology is a viable source for reducing emissions and fuel consumption.
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#19 Consumer Comment

What do the studies have to say?

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

 Here is a is a link to the Govenment agency who I have talked to on the phone personally about the subject we are discussing here. They are in charge of the part of the agency that deals with HHO kits like the mileageshop's. You can get paid to produce hydrogen, clean your emissions, and get better fuel economy offsetting the cost of the kit you decide to install.
http  ://www1   .eere.   energy   .gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/production/electro_processes   .html

Here are some studies done by third party universities and Fuel efficiency testing labs.
http    ://www    .divshare.    com/download/15625428-3d3
http    ://www    .divshare.    com/direct/11410456-4d2    .doc
http    ://www    .divshare.    com/direct/11412010-3d1    .pdf

Kevin, Ronny g do your homework!!!!!!!! I and others have shown enough for anybody to get an idea about what it takes to get theses things to work in your vehicles. Including tests, studies, and links to info on this subject from third parties(to include our wonderful government). Thanks Jeremy
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#20 Consumer Comment

Many reports posted here,,,,

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

..are slandering legit companies or just idiots that allow themselves to get ripped off and then try to blame the world.

  But this is one of the few reports that really is a legit rip off in every sense.  Having a well tuned engine will in all logic deliver better fuel economy and performance, that goes without saying.  

Messing with ECU/ECM parameters and leaning out fuel mixtures can of course in some cases give you better mileage, even without a bogus HHO system..but can also destroy the engine and is a federal violation. If there is a magical device that can deliver these kind of mileage increase claims surely there would be a single documented sanctioned test result posted and not just claims from address-less scammers who are trying to make money selling and installing these snake oil machines.
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#21 General Comment

Cliff Notes of the previous two post

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

No for real, this really works.  Really I have installed lots they really work for real.  I have no proof to offer but I taught highschool science for 15 years and carbon dating still doesn't work (oh, sorry...got him confused with someone else for a minute).  Now please call me at this number and give me money cause I can give you gas magic in a box!  For realz!  It works cause I said so...and I have seen it...really....I have...Call me....I'm lonely.
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#22 Consumer Comment

EPA update!!!!!

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

Thanks to Mike for this post :

4/10/12, The EPA has recently revised Alternative fuel certification requirements for small Converters Manufacturers to streamline the process to acquire the emissions tampering exemption for individual and OEM test group/families of vehicles. The rule is effective April 8, 2011.There are three new categories (1) new and nearly new vehicles that are under two years old the certification process is the same prior to revision. (2) Intermediate age that are still within their regulatory useful life and (3) Outside regulatory Useful Life that are more than ten years old. The big requirement to qualify for the exemption will be the detailed description of the conversion being applied and their interpretation of what is sound engineering judgment.

 Go to EPA Alternative Fuel Guidance.

 http:    //www.   epa.   gov/otaq/consumer/fuels/altfuels/420f11006.   htm

 Highlighted information from the document to ignite the Blog Previous EPA regulations required vehicle and engine conversion systems to be covered by a certificate of conformity to gain a regulatory exemption from potential tampering charges. EPA evaluated the requirement and determined that it is appropriate to introduce new flexibilities for all clean alternative fuel converters and to expand the compliance options for certain categories of conversions. EPA is amending the regulatory procedures in 40 CFR part 85 subpart F and part 86 to establish these new compliance options. The new approach builds upon the concept that it is appropriate to treat conversions differently based on the age of the vehicle or engine being converted. Under the new regulations, testing and compliance procedures differ based on the age category of the vehicle or engine that is converted: new and relatively new, intermediate age, or outside useful life. All conversion manufacturers seeking an exemption must demonstrate compliance, but the requirements differ among age categories. EPA expects the streamlined approach to result in a cost savings for many converters.
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#23 Consumer Comment

This is just one of many kits that do work!

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

Since Kevin has forgotten who I am I will reiterate:  Hello my name is Jeremy Dukes I am a certified HHO system installer(I have gone through a number of HHO manufacturers training programs) . I have about 4+yrs experience with this technology so far I have seen negative and positive results. 99% of the negative results have come down to faulty installation, HHO system is not running efficiently enough, the vehicle is not tuned to accept hho into the fuel mixture, and/or the vehicle is not in proper running order. When you have those criteria met you will have positive results every time. Heres a good tip from an experienced HHO installer that I like.

When tuning a vehicle for better fuel economy, the most beneficial tuning offset that has been discovered is the barometric pressure reading. Why? Simplified, higher elevations have air that is less dense. Less air entering the engine means less fuel is required to burn along with it. This simple philosophy was the motivation behind designing many MAP and MAF "enhancers". What these devices do is skew the air pressure readings to the ECU to show lower pressures, and therefore commit the ECU to sending less fuel. On older applications (pre 2000) this approach works pretty consistently. That is, as long as the oxygen sensor readings are also in agreement for less fuel to be sent. This is the major item many experimenters overlook. They believe only the MAP or MAF signal tells the computer to lean out things, but in reality the lowered pressure reading is just a green light, or a "lean limit" that must be checked off before the ECU examines the O2 sensor readings and decides if it should comply. This is why a MAP or MAF sensor enhancer alone doesn't do the job. You need an EFIE as well. On the newer cars it gets much more complicated. A baro reading can be taken at "key on" from the MAP or MAF, from other sensors on the vehicle, and also on the fly under various load conditions. A simple offset on any given sensor is often not enough to get any desired effect. If someone designed a way to produce a universal barometric pressure offset that works on any vehicle it would be key to getting the best tuned economy, but with so many vehicles and so many different baro reading variables to the ECU it becomes a tedious task. We can only hope that with the right software a new baro offset can be flashed directly into the ECU so that the offset sticks. Often a difference in pressure equal to only 1000-2000 feet higher is all that's needed.  
--

Mike Walsh, MPG SUPERTUNER

And Mike Holler:

 So you installed the Acme Fuel Mizer, the Presto Mileage Maestro, Sparky plugs, and a few other devices all claiming up to a 30% increase in mileage, but you are only seeing maybe a 10% gain. There are many devices and technologies on the market and the internet that are based on sound science that cant seem to deliver the goods. It has become painfully obvious by observing my apprentices on the mpgResearch Forum that a comprehensive Guide to Tuning is desperately needed. Simply making combustion more efficient these days isnt enough. The factory ECU is programmed for the factory hardware. Once you deviate from that basic recipe, the ECU is no longer able to deliver optimal results. The fix? Tuning! Tuning a stock vehicle usually wont deliver much of an increase in mileage. Up to 20% gains have been reported, but typically fall into the 10% or less
range. Once you add something to improve combustion efficiency, much larger gains are common. In fact, Ive been seeing over 100 MPG regularly with Browns Gas, fuel heaters, vaporizers, ozone, and other devices, almost always in combination. Lets break the tuning process down into bite-sized steps. A logical format makes the tuning process more like science and less like a mystical black art.

1- Verify the vehicle is in good working condition
2- Install your mileage device(s)
3- Lower your lean-out limits
4- Adjust your air/fuel mixture
5- Adjust your ignition timing
6- Readjust your air/fuel mixture
............... any more and I would overload your mind.

I have personally installed 20+ Alternative gas solutions systems on peoples cars and have had the above mentioned results.  I have installed a AGS/Mileageshop system and got 39% increase (no modification to sensors or ecu) in gas mileage and held strong until the guy totaled his Jeep. I installed a AGS system on a Honda civic 1998 that had 188000 miles on it and it got 50mpg from 33mpg right after I installed it (no modification to the sensors or ecu). I was a part of an installation to a 2006 Suburban that got 62 MPG (extensive tuning to the engine was required). I was a part of an installation of a HHO kit on a Diesel generator at the port of LA and we got a 50% decrease of fuel consumption( tuning of the generator was done as well). That has been just some of my experiences with this technology. I have no financial connection with AGS/Mileage shop I have just helped people install these kits and so far the biggest problem with this technology is all the unsubstantiated negative propaganda on the internet and people presuming what their mpg are going to be.

Just as a maxim in life to remember "An investment in a product is a risk no matter how big or small, how proven or not proven, warrantied or not warrantied". If you need help with your system or just want info on this technology give me a call 619-408-7854 Jeremy :-)
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#24 General Comment

Okay....

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

Nice....Still pathetically trying to defend this company.  So, what is your association with this obviously fraudulent company?  Some average joe would not be investing so much time rallying to their defense.  Hell you wouldn't have even FOUND this exchange if you weren't associated with the "millage shop" in some way.
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#25 Consumer Comment

Like I said

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

Like I said even if I posted till I'm blue in the face there will be no real analysis of this information. To kevin yes I have read this article along with quite a few others but apparently you haven't. Probably couldn't see it with all the egg on your face. Don't believe me here's a little to think about as well.

http   ://www   .youtube.   com/watch?v=lp82dXC7vLI     or    http   ://www  .youtube.   com/watch?v=rxko4jjVMyQ&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL70109D09B18EFAEC
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#26 General Comment

"How does this translate into 5 years Charles"

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

Just run those numbers though the same algorithm he uses to calculate fuel efficiency and you will have your answer:)
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#27 Consumer Comment

Might be why...

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

..these fraudsters have no "about us" link on their website. Because if they did...the public would expect to at least see a date of when they started the business if they clicked the link.

And why no address there either?  If you click "Why us" it has a list of reasons. Reason # 5 states "We're a real company"..."come on by". But I do not find an address ANYWHERE on the "real companies" web site. That is usually the first sign of a scam when you can not easily find the address.

I mean think about it if you were ripping people off you would not want your "victims" to know your address.. right? But if you were not ripping people off, you would have no problem simply posting your address boldly on the TOP of your home page...right?

So...why are they hiding or not disclosing this now on their supposed "real company" website?
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#28 Consumer Comment

Yes, "Lets set the record straight"

AUTHOR: Deceived - (United States of America)

I've been following this discussion from some time now (after acquiring a smaller mileageshop kit last September) and it appears that Charles is mathematically challenged. After doing some research on godaddy.com, the website domain for mileageshop was created on April 28, 2010.  Charles, how could you be working 5 years for a company that started 2 years ago?  But wait, alternativegassolutions.com is part of this equation too.  After another domain search for alternativegassolutions.com, it shows that website was created on July 16, 2008.

Based on this information from GoDaddy, the mileageshop website just had their second (2 years) anniversary... Alternativegassolutions will have the 4th anniversary during July 2012. 

How does this translate into 5 years Charles?

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#29 General Comment

Wow...yup fail of the day.

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

Did you even read that report before you posted it?  I mean not even getting into the fact that it is just a pdf on a website that may or may not be legitimate, did you even READ it?  Because it is not very supportive of your product here.
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#30 Consumer Comment

Last post: LINK FAILS

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

Not good...
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#31 Consumer Comment

DOT report on HHO! One of many reports!

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

This is one of the pieces of information that led me in the beginning to look more into HHO hopefully it will inspire others.   http    ://punchhho. com/banners/Guidelines-H2-Fuel-in-CMVs-Nov2007%5B1%5D.       pdf
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#32 Consumer Comment

No one is overwhelmed...

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

...but quite the contrary. We are extremely underwhelmed by the lack of any type of proof whatsoever or results from a sanctioned testing facility that HHO is anything other then a farce/scam/snake oil/magical/unicorns/ BS.

Anyone can just log onto a website and "claim" anything as the only credentials or prerequisite for that really is nothing more then the ability to type. 
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#33 Consumer Comment

Kevin get a clue

AUTHOR: beej74 - (United States of America)

Let me tell you a little something pal... I have used four of these hydrogen kits on four of my vehicles.  a 86 chevy dually with a 454 big block and saw a 15% increase , a 02 chrysler sebring saw a 10% increase , a 87 fiero 4cylinder that went from an amazing 32 mpg max on premium to 48mpg hyway. and a 97 chev 1500 with a 4.3 v-6 and got a 20% . I have also installed a "double kit" on a dodge  3500 diesel 2001 , I picked this truck up from my attorneys house and drove 20 miles on the hyway and the truck was getting 19.6 mpg by the on board computer upon returning the truck the computer was reading 26.7 mpg. so , just because you quite possibly have a strange vehicle or poor reading or following directions I dont think you can speak for everyone as to the quality or performance of this product. In my experience I have found that even the most arrogant "tech savey educated nerd types" can be overwhelmed by such a simple opperation as this. And as far as how long you have been dragging out your claims on here... in the words of a pirate..." you need to find yourself a girl mate" and find something better to do with your time.   TAH!
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#34 Consumer Comment

Kindly post links or web addresses...

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

..to any third parties or any parties conducting tests so we skeptics can review the results. How do we know it is not just more snake oil and scammers just typing in positive results on a website so they can potentially fool more suckers and sell more snake oil?

The site www . californiahydrogen . org does not seem to contain or lead me to where I can find any legitimate or sanctioning testing of HHO devices..but just more smoke and mirrors or what we all have never disagreed with..the fact that vehicles can certainly run on hydrogen and get hydrogen from a hydrogen filling station if they are rich enough to have a fuel cell or a government agency using it for city buses or whatever taxpayer reamings we all know those too well sadly.. That has NEVER been debated by anyone here that I can notice.

 What some including myself are debating is if it is efficient enough to produce via the vehicles electrical system to extract enough hydrogen from H2O..then inject it into the engine and net any results that conclude any kind of increase in fuel economy and/or performance. Any official sanctioned test results that conclude it works or more snake oil and scammers lying to us?
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#35 Consumer Comment

Hope, wants and needs.

AUTHOR: EDSbrain - (United States of America)

I just wanted to urge 'Kevin' to keep going at this.  I have just read every single word in this two-year discussion. It is impressive to see your stick-to-it-ness on this article and topic.  

To the "MrHydrogenGuy"... I would challenge you to keep going as well if what you sell is truly made of the 'truth' that you speak.

To Kevin: We need people like you to challenge the 'new' things that are sold to us!  So that people do not waste hard earned money.  

To MrHydro:  We need people like yourself to either create things that will better our lives/world/pocketbooks... but we also need you to stick to your guns to change the public perception.  If this is all legitimate.  Do the things that your customers ask.  Prove to them and they will buy.  I urge you to keep inventing, re-inventing and pursuing.  Do not sell out.

I am a want-to-be-consumer.  I currently drive a small car for errands and fun that has a water-methanol injection system in the car.... for purely horsepower reasons.  This car averages about 28mpg on the highway cruising at 70-80mph.  If I am rat-racing around town I will being that down to about 23mpg... the water-meth mixture pumps into the system after 12psi of turbo boost and only then.  It is a fun car.  Not bad on the 'eyes' I might add.  My own opinion of course.

I want something like this product to become a reality for the truck that I own.  A 2500HD crew cab pickup.  It is quite efficient for what it does.  It has an 8.1L gas motor.  It will get about 11mpg when empty (although I always have tools and a diesel tank in there).  I will get 8-9mpg when towing something.  This thing consumes a lot of expensive gas.  I use this truck for work and doing the heavier errands of life.  In the last few years I have had to really 'get tight' with my business  and our family life as it depends on heavy equipment usage and fuel consumption.  My company uses 3/4 ton trucks, generators and heavy equipment in the winter months.  My business has suffered from the rising gas prices.  And the prices of service are being challenged to go lower... all the time.  

I myself, coming from a purely future-possible-consumer perspective of a product such as this... only have a point-of-view that is one of hope.  I hope that this product, or one other like it, will help me and my business to keep a little extra cash in my pocket.  I have a good and regular life... kids, house, dog and all of that jazz.  I just want to enhance my life with a little device that might save some dollars.  I hope.

I would dare to assume that products like these are attractive to others persons that would benefit from the savings in fuel such as myself.  Or... maybe the person looking at these products would like to be 'better' to the environment.  Whatever the tilt.  We need these things.  We want these things.

That is enough about me.  I hope that we will, one day, have devices like this that will assist in transforming the current fueling systems of the world that we now use and pay into.  One day I would like to see our homes and home heating use this hydrogen technology.  Just to be cleaner to the environment.  Just to be able to feel better about 'it all'.  Does anybody out here know what I mean?

I'm just hoping for these things and imagining that someone out there is going to invent and bring this product to the masses.  

I hope sooner than later.
Thanks everyone.
ED 
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#36 General Comment

That didn't take long...

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

Okay well thanks for at least providing SOME assessment of a related device done by someone.  But this is not going to work for me.  First of all, why did they choose Best Environmental Technologies to evaluate an HHO unit?  I can't seem to get a fix on exactly who they are but they certainly are not an automotive facility of any kind.  Also, Paul Thomas is a rather hard guy to find any credentials on.  He certainly has jumped departments rather randomly at some rather unusual locations.  I'm not saying he is can't be legitimate but he doesn't seem to have accomplished much in his career.  If you google my name you will find my work...I can't find much for him.  And why is a Ph.D. at a biology or chemistry department evaluating a fuel saving device anyways?  This is extraordinarily odd.  Just because someone is a scientist doesn't mean they are qualified to conduct such a test...I am not.  Here is a list of suggested EPA certified test sites where one might get such a test conducted.


http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/420b11026.pdf



Here is what a 511 EPA test result would look like:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/devices/pb80140809.pdf

I am HIGHLY suspicious of your source here and I question why this company didn't go with a more mainstream and accepted third party to test their device.  I can't help but notice there is no address for Best Environmental Systems on their website either...this seems to be a trend.

Kevin
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#37 General Comment

Thanks Jeremy!

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

What the hell took you so long?  You know I never would have assumed you were a crook and a liar, at least not right out the gate, if you would have at least ATTEMPTED to provide such documentation.  I will have a look at it and post my response latter.

Kevin
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#38 General Comment

Charles would never lie....

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

Notice how, in that long rambling response, he didn't address the most important issue.  Where is ANY certified test result showing these devices work?  Kinda odd...still evading the question.  Let me get this straight...you TOOK YOUR ADDRESS OFF YOUR WEBSITE because it was BRING TOO MANY PEOPLE BY YOUR LOCATION....right.....

Kevin
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#39 Consumer Suggestion

California agency dedicated to HYDROGEN

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

www . californiahydrogen . org      you wanna know whats going on with Hydrogen in california check it out there is even a HHO specific third party testing company. The concept of using an electrolysis unit on-board a vehicle to improve combustion is almost 100 years old. US Patent 1,262,034, granted in 1918, is one of the first references where the products of electrolysis are added to an engine to improve combustion. The patent states that the electrolysis unit is designed particularly to improve the efficiency and emissions of internal combustion engines. US Patent 1,876,879, granted in 1932, is another early reference to the design of an electrolysis system for improving the performance and efficiency of an internal combustion engine. These patents show that the idea of improving combustion from an electrolysis unit onboard a vehicle is not new and it would be expected that extensive research has be performed on this topic. And there is a massive amount of research is ongoing by many companies and manufacturers of automobiles. So don't be fooled by an egotistical, arrogant, got a C average hillbilly. you know who I'm talking about.;-)

Jeremy
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#40 Consumer Comment

HAHAHAHA

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

Here is another good third party evaluation of HHO by an environmental agency. 

http://www.empirehydrogen.com/docs/ThirdPartyReview-EHES.pdf 

If kevin can read maybe he will see the light if not who cares hes a schmuck anyways.  JEREMY
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#41 UPDATE Employee

Lets set the record straight

AUTHOR: Charles - (United States of America)

My name is Charles, I have worked for the Mileage Shop for the past 5 years. I have already covered the comment about the Mileage Shop not having a real location and working from a trailer park before, but it seems like you just overlook my response so let me try it again. I repeat, the Mileage shop does not work out of a trailer park! I do not know why google map shows our address as a trailer park but I assure you that it is a real office building warehouse.  The address is 2485 N. Great Western Drive. Prescott Valley, AZ. 86314.  We do over 10 installs a week in our installation bay and have at least 50 customers a week stop by for a tour of our facility. I personally welcome you to stop by our address for yourself to put this ridiculous comment to rest. We get so many customers stopping by our location because of this comment that we had to remove the address from the website so that we could get some work done. Do not put faith in a negative response from a person who has obviously never been by our facility himself. Oh yea, one more thing, when you stop by our location be sure to take a photo of our sign on the front and rear of the building so we can stop having to respond to the comment that our sign is photo shopped onto the building and not a real sign. We are a real company, with a real building, and a real tech support department. We shipped over 1200 units around the world last month. Any company that moves that much product is going to have some unhappy customers, we also have thousands of happy customers. Some people you can not make satisfied no matter how hard you try. Your right about the comment we do not offer refunds on a product that has been installed already, what are we supposed to do with it? We do not sell used merchandise. We make our no refund policy very clear to every customer that buys a product from us, No refunds once the product has been installed. If they do not want to buy from us they do not have to, it is their choice. Any company in the business of selling hho units knows that all we can control is what we have control over, which is the quality of the hho cell and the hho gas that it produces. We can not control how an hho unit will react to any certain vehicle, their are too many perimeters that we can not control. We do give a lifetime replacement warranty on our cell if it ever malfunctions we will send you a new one. Make cracks about our warranty all you want but who else stands behind their product line with a life time warranty? Sorry this rebuttal is a little long but I have patiently been reading the negative comments on this site for a while now and just wanted to set the record straight. Stop by our office anytime Monday thru Friday and I will give you a demonstration of our new product line that we are coming out with soon. Thank You, Charles
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#42 General Comment

Ha!

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

They REMOVED THEIR ADDRESS!  OMG!  He got pond when someone looked it up and found it was in a trailer park!  So he REMOVED his business address form his site!  Who would give $700 to a company that doesn't even disclose their location?  Wow....fail guys...fail.
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#43 General Comment

Mileage Shop Website!

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

HA!  I just went back to look at their webpage again!  Remember the TERRIBLE photoshopped sign on the building?  The picture of their building used to have a BIG sign and a orange line that ran down the the ground on the left side.  The orange paint on the building went OVER the bush by the left of that white pickup truck:)  It was so absurd!  After being poned on it here seems old Jeremy (If that is his name) decided he should fix that.  It's still obviously photoshopped if you spend any time looking at it up close however it is at least far less obvious now.  I am going to go see if the address of the business has changed!  It used to be in a trailer park....
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#44 General Comment

Guys...give it up...you have lost this one.

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

"I said  I wasn't going to post anymore since bur since you refuse to believe anything anyone says who has used these generators successfully I feel i must .  I am not Jeremy, nor have any affilliation with ACS.  I don't need an EPA test to validate this product as my car's mileage increase is the only test I need."  

And God spoke to me and told me they do not work.  Now, you see why your assertions can not be counted as evidence?  I don't know who you are.  I have a pretty good idea, but the point is you could be anyone.  Even Jeremy the con artist.  I don't know.  All I have is your assertion that this technology, that has for some reason NOT been picked up by any auto manufacture, has the extraordinary ability to double or triple a car's fuel efficiency.  Why are they messing around with those crazy complicated hybrids?  Why have two drive trains when you can just put a little hydrogen generator on your vehicle.  Damn, are all those engineers just completely inept?  They could make bank on this!  But they don't, because it is a fraud.  And you, my friend, can assert the contrary all you want.  An EPA sanctioned result showing an increase in fuel efficiency with this device is a perfectly reasonable request.  You would be an idiot to give these people money without some minimal demonstration that the device works.  Particularly when you know the company is dishonest from the start as they have a photoshopped picture of their "building" on the website and their address is a TRAILER PARK!!!  Thanks, by the way, to whoever it was that reverse looked up the address.  You know it never even occurred to me to do that.

"I truly hope all those who have posted on this issue read this:  Your flawed science is only surpasses by your ignorance of the action of the HHO in the combustion process."  

My kungfu is superior to your kungfu!  My mom can beat up your mom!  My ignorance of how this device MAY work has little to do with the fact that no one can seem to provide any evidence.  At this point I would accept ONE little report...once test from a legitimate EPA certified mechanic showing an increase in fuel efficiency when this device is turned on over when it is turned off.  A simple, cheap, easy test is all I am asking for.  It is the industry standard.  No one here seems to be denying that.  Certainly before you can even legally market this device with those claims you MUST have these test to support it.  But strangely, no one seems able to pony up.

"I'lL put my 50000 miles of experience against your flawed theoretics  because THIS TECHNOLOGY DOES WORK.  By using this technology I get a 40%  rebate on every gallon of gas used on the highway and a 20% rebate on that used in town.  $4.00 gal gas costs me $2.40 for the highway and $3.20 in town."

Rebates don't count my friend...but I am sure you just don't know what the word "rebate" means.  What theory?  This should be settled experimentally.  I think I made that clear.  I want experimental evidence to support this rather lofty claim.  We COULD argue theory till we are blue in the face.  The proof is in the pudding.  Where are the experimental results?  You understand I can't take your word for this any more than you can take my divine revelation as fact.
 
"Therefore I am the beneficiary of this tecnology  and the winner in discussions about it  in the most important manner possible---ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK!!!!!!"

If you ever bother to provide evidence for these claims, not only will I apologize, I will make you a millionaire.  I would have no problem marketing this device.  I would be glad to split the profits 10/90 where I take only 10%.  No problem at all...we will both be crazy freakin' rich.  I am not a greedy person.  You have lost this one friend.  I suggest you just rely on the fact that few people will ever read this report.  There is a sucker born every minute and few will bother to read a rippoff report.

Kevin
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#45 Consumer Comment

I tried it on my 1987 Toyota..

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

And am now producing more fuel then I burn. I have been selling off the excess back to the oil companies and netting a nice profit. For the nominal fully refundable fee of $149.99 I will tell you all how I do this and sell even you the "kit". If it does not work that means you installed it wrong or did not properly tamper with your emission controls all good..I will show you how step by step with a resistor.

It has all been tested..well, not by the EPA but the EPS. The S" is for "sucker"..or "schmuck" all the same.
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#46 General Comment

Hey everyone, I'm a SMUCK!

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

That is all;)  And I would like someone on here to point out where I have missed a posted EPA test showing these devices to actually increase fuel efficiency.  It is distinctly possible I missed it...but we all know better:)  More assertions.  Well, I guess I gotta smuck my way on back to the real world.  Our work here is done.  At this point I think anyone who reads this exchange and actually gives these people money pretty much deserves the lesson that is coming to them.

Kevin
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#47 Consumer Comment

Keven's misconceptions

AUTHOR: Overjoyed - (United States of America)

Keven:



I said  I wasn't going to post anymore since bur since you refuse to believe anything anyone says who has used these generators successfully I feel i must .  I am not Jeremy, nor have any affilliation with ACS.  I don't need an EPA test to validate this product as my car's mileage increase is the only test I need.  I truly hope all those who have posted on this issue read this:  Your flawed science is only surpasses by your ignorance of the action of the HHO in the combustion process.  I'lL put my 50000 miles of experience against your flawed theoretics  because THIS TECHNOLOGY DOES WORK.  By using this technology I get a 40%  rebate on every gallon of gas used on the highway and a 20% rebate on that used in town.  $4.00 gal gas costs me $2.40 for the highway and $3.20 in town.  Therefore I am the beneficiary of this tecnology  and the winner in discussions about it  in the most important manner possible---ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK!!!!!!
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#48 Consumer Comment

To kevin the expert.

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

On behalf of everyone who calls me from this report KEVIN YOUR A SCHMUCK! I have provided all kinds of information including test results from third parties. Beside it doesn't matter what we post on here Kevin you will still call us liars and a con artists. Thank you to everyone for your calls and support. Back to work for now call me if you need help with your installs. JEREMY
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#49 General Comment

If I'm wrong, show that evidence...

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

"You are the one who started calling people who disagree with you cons and liar. "

Nowlet us be fair here.  I have POLITELY asked many times for you or anyone else to provide evidence in the form of a EPA certified test showing an increase in mpg.  This is the industry standard.  This is a fair request.  You not only have FAILED to provide such documentation, you have flat avoided responding to the request.  So yes..this certainly leads me
to believe you are a liar and a fraud.  What am I supposed to make of this refusal to respond to what is a very fair objection?

"Have you ever used these devices and for how long?"

In the spirit of full disclosure, no I have never fallen for this con.  Is it possible that these devices work on some principal I am unaware of?  YES!  However it is an extraordinary claim.  That is why I have requested an EPA certified test indicated the claimed increase in fuel efficiency.  This is a very fair request.  If these devices work why will can you not provide this?  Why do you refuse to even respond to the request?  I think the answer to this is quite clear.

"The U of Arkansas is a great University however, after listening to  you and your claims  one can't help but wonder if you even are a student there"

You could look me up.  It's not that hard.  Someone here looked up the address to the mileage shop and oddly enough that pretty, though poorly photoshopped, building was no where to be seen...the address was smack in the middle of a trailer park.  Odd.....But does it really matter.  Lets say, for the sake of argument, I am a janitor in a Bratislavan brothel.  How does this nullify the fact that you won't provide ANY reasonable evidence to support your non-trivial claims?  Where are the EPA results?  How is it possible someone has a device capable of doubling your fuel efficiency and has not even bother to get these results certified or even tested once?  These test are quite inexpensive.  But they are also quite accurate...and we can't have that, can we Jeremy?

"I'm then first to admit that I am not a scientist but I do understand  empirical evidence when I see it and the indisputable evidence my vehicle shows is that I get a 40& highway and @20% city mpg increase when using the  hydrogen generator."

So you say...

"I believe that one of the most important factors which make the generator work is having a properly maintained and tuned engine.  One time I had a reduction in mpg because my oxygen & map sensors and pvc valve were shot..  After replacing them I went back to the increased mileage.   When ordering this generator the size of your motor will determine the size of the generator required so that the necessary HHO can be delivered for the maximum benefit  Another critical factor is finding the amperage that produces the amount of HHO which gives the maximum benefit.  My motor is a 1.9 cylinder and 14 -17 amps are the sweet spot.  AGS states in their instructions that if you watch the amp meter it will tell you what you what you need to know and my experience with their generator backs this up"

Plenty of stuff to blame it on when the product doesn't deliver...nice:)


"I don't expect to waste any more of my time in rebuttal to you as you are obviously so full of yourself that you are incapable  of believing anything but your own opinion"

Um...I think this is true of everyone.  I mean...if your beliefs change at any point, that new belief is now your new opinion.  By definition one can only believe that which is their opinion.  But I know what you were trying to say.  I don't believe extraordinary claims without supporting evidence.  Do you deny that there are con artist in the world?  Do you deny that they will make any assertion to sell you their fraudulent products?  What am I supposed to think of you?  You refuse to provide any reasonable evidence for your claim.  Hell you haven't even provided UNREASONABLE evidence.  Your assertion is all I have to go on.  How would you react in my position?  

"There are several manufacturers of hydrogen generators on the market.  I cannot speak for any other than AGS.  Some require you to buy special chips and Map sensors, AGS does not.  AGS does instruct you to clear your car's computer before using the generator so that it can adjust to the new conditions.  In my case it takes about 2 days for that adjustment to take place before I receive the full benefit of the generator.  Other than that there is nothing else needed."

You should also step round your car 7 time and on the seventh time, hold your athame high into the air and chant a hymn to the gardians of the watchtowers of the west.  Then you sprinkle the chicken gizzards into the air filter and shake your penis exactly three times.  If you don't have a penis...the car's dipstick will do.

"Finally a word abourt the comments regarding the poor service of the company.  Whenever I have contacted them for any reason they have always givern me a propmp answer or told me they needed to look into my inquiry.  In that instance they asked me when would be a convenient time to call back and did.  I can't say that is true for everyone, and n ot going to call people liars who post otherwise, however.based on my experience, when I read the poor service accounts  it seems they are talking about an other company as i wish all companies i have dealt with had as excellent customer service as AGS."

Of course you get good service, Jeremy!  Why would you fail to answer your own call?

Kevin
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#50 Consumer Comment

Kevin you are wrong

AUTHOR: Overjoyed - (United States of America)

Kevin

You are the one who started calling people who disagree with you cons and liar.  There is a saying that "What goes around comes around"  and your turn has come.  I have used this device for over 50,000 miles and it has performed as advertised.   Have you ever used these devices and for how long?

The U of Arkansas is a great University however, after listening to  you and your claims  one can't help but wonder if you even are a student there

I'm then first to admit that I am not a scientist but I do understand  empirical evidence when I see it and the indisputable evidence my vehicle shows is that I get a 40& highway and @20% city mpg increase when using the  hydrogen generator.

I believe that one of the most important factors which make the generator work is having a properly maintained and tuned engine.  One time I had a reduction in mpg because my oxygen & map sensors and pvc valve were shot..  After replacing them I went back to the increased mileage.   When ordering this generator the size of your motor will determine the size of the generator required so that the necessary HHO can be delivered for the maximum benefit  Another critical factor is finding the amperage that produces the amount of HHO which gives the maximum benefit.  My motor is a 1.9 cylinder and 14 -17 amps are the sweet spot.  AGS states in their instructions that if you watch the amp meter it will tell you what you what you need to know and my experience with their generator backs this up

I don't expect to waste any more of my time in rebuttal to you as you are obviously so full of yourself that you are incapable  of believing anything but your own opinion,  but I can and do without any reservations recommend this technology because when used as instructed IT WORKS.

There are several manufacturers of hydrogen generators on the market.  I cannot speak for any other than AGS.  Some require you to buy special chips and Map sensors, AGS does not.  AGS does instruct you to clear your car's computer before using the generator so that it can adjust to the new conditions.  In my case it takes about 2 days for that adjustment to take place before I receive the full benefit of the generator.  Other than that there is nothing else needed.

Finally a word abourt the comments regarding the poor service of the company.  Whenever I have contacted them for any reason they have always givern me a propmp answer or told me they needed to look into my inquiry.  In that instance they asked me when would be a convenient time to call back and did.  I can't say that is true for everyone, and n ot going to call people liars who post otherwise, however.based on my experience, when I read the poor service accounts  it seems they are talking about an other company as i wish all companies i have dealt with had as excellent customer service as AGS.
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#51 Consumer Comment

Focus on the Facts

AUTHOR: Vcarvis - (United States of America)

I've posted earlier on my results after purchasing 3 units... 2 installed and 1 not due to poor/no results on the others.  See 'Results may vary - in my case NONE' above.

Here's what I have concluded based on my results and those I have seen posted:

  1.  Any unit that appears to be getting results has been placed on at least a V6 or smaller 4-cyl engine.
  2.  Any V8 or diesel engine has NOT shown any significant results.

Why?  The process of HHO enhanced fuel economy is NOT the result of 'burning' HHO as fuel.  It is a fuel enhancer in the burn process ONLY to create a more complete burn of the same gas injected into the cylinders.  As such, it takes a certain amount to hit the 'sweet spot' referred to increase the burn efficiency.  These units can "possibly" do that in the smaller engines... but so does my fuel additive mixture of acetone and xylene without having to modify or add anything.  I have over 350,000 miles of run time to prove this fact.

I don't know if these guys are running a business out of a trailer park or if they have a legitimate physical location.  I do know that they deliver a 'product' as stated and that they have a staff to answer questions.  I also know they are VERY stubborn and non-responsive to constructive criticism... and I know that their 'Branch Manager' is a total A$$.

Argue physics all you want.  Reality is what truly matters, and what matters to me (and I assume any current or potential customer) is results.  So here are my list of points to consider with this whole process and company:

  1. If you have a small engine and want to try it, you 'may' get some increased mileage.
  2. If you are willing to spend at least 40 physical hours of time to install, tweak, and play with this contraption, you 'might' see some results.
  3. If you are a novice and don't have the fortitude or mechanical sense to tinker with your auto... save your money and time and the frustration of this entire process.
  4. If you have a large gas or diesel engine... STAY AWAY FROM THIS ENTIRELY.
  5. If you aren't worried about burning up your alternator, go ahead and get one.  The power necessary to produce HHO with this unit will eventually ruin your alternator on a bigger engine auto.  This could also be one of the reasons V8's and diesels aren't seeing the results:  it takes too much power to make enough HHO thru the generator... and you lose all your benefits of HHO in the tradeoff of making it.
  6. NEVER trust a company who will not listen to constructive criticism... especially one who threatens to sue you in the process of trying to help them.
  7. NEVER trust a company that WILL NOT give you a money back guarantee.  The so called guarantee offered here is worthless for anything except marketing... and should send up a red flag to the observant consumer.
  8. Understand that the inclusion of ethanol in our gasoline now negates most if not all the possible good effects of this add on.
  9. Don't believe anyone selling something or offering advice on a product if they are not willing to give you at least a real name, address, and telephone number for contact... and then you have to filter out the ones like MrHydroGuy, who appears by my observations to work with/for AGS and/or The Mileage Shop.

Read my previous post to better understand the background of all of my position(s)... and I'm not wasting any more time responding to the garbage line of crap I've seen on here.

One last item I'd like to offer, however, is a definition for you to keep in mind, and that is of 'Truth'.

"Truth is when the word and deed become one." 

Apply this definition and you will begin to see where I am coming from.

Victor Carvis
830 370 7565   

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#52 General Comment

I study the real physics...not automotive homeopathy.

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

I wondered when the con artist would start to attack me:)  I really don't understand why you guys persist.  Anyone who reads these threads will never fall for your con.  But I am sure this will not make even the slightest dent in your racket.  Jeremy is a liar.  And so are you.  There is the slight, possible chance that I am mistaken, and you are both just really, really stupid, in which case I do apologize for my assumption of dishonesty, however I think, given that you can figure out how to leave a post on this site, that you are not, in fact, stupid.  I have left enough info on here for people to reach me with their inquires if they need to understand why this device is a con.  However you can chat with any physicist and they will tell you the same thing.  I would like to point out again, however, that you don't need a Ph.d. in physics to recognize this as a fraud.  How many times now have I asked Jeremy or someone else on this forum for an EPA certified test result showing increased fuel efficiency with this device?  How many such results have been posted here?  Oh...right....he just dodges the question.  Jeremy won't put up any such evidence and neither will this clown because they know what such a test would show.  Dateline actually attempted to have such a test run.  It is, after all, a relatively inexpensive and simple procedure.  Surprise surprise the device was "not tuned properly".  Don't get conned.  These people will assert anything to have you send them money to their trailer park (look up the location of "the mileage shop")  Funny stuff.  Yea that pretty building on the web site doesn't exist as if you couldn't tell that from the crapy photoshop job!

Kevin
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#53 General Comment

Kevin What kind of Physics are you studying

AUTHOR: Overjoyed - (United States of America)

I am a customer of Alternative Gas Solutions and have been using the product for 18 mo. and have an mpg gain of 40%.  From your posts I can't assertain whether you are studying the rules of the Universe or the kind of Physic that comes out of a bottle.  However i'm inclined to believe it to be the latter based on your uninformed comments.  You should apologise to Jeremy for calling himn a LIAR because my experience with this device makes the only LIAR in this instance to be you.
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#54 Consumer Comment

This will cure everything....

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

Snake oil.
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#55 Consumer Comment

Physics ??

AUTHOR: Overjoyed - (United States of America)

Sir:







I am not a scientist but I have to question : What kind of physics are you studying?  I have used a Hydrogen Generator for 50,000+ miles and have averaged a 40% increase in mpg at highway speeds and @20% in city driving.  My Saturn went from @35mpg to 50mpg on the highway.  I don't know about your science but I do know about my results and I GET THEM.  From my point of view as a consumer of this product the only Rip off are your comments.
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#56 Consumer Comment

Suckers..

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

....are born every minute.
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#57 Consumer Comment

Sorry but its working for me

AUTHOR: Gutz88 - (United States of America)

Ok i ain't standing up for the Milage Shop or any other company. I'm not on any side. I dont care who's right and who's wrong. All i know its working in my Jeep and Van.

My girl got this for my Birthday from yes the Milage shop.. I didn't believe that it would do anything. I honestly thought it was going be to a waste of my time installing it and look dumb.. After having it sitting in my back seat for 5 weeks my girl was complaining that i wasted her money. So to shut her up i installed it. I drive about 150 miles a day between work and picking up my kids. My Jeep Cherokee is a 97 V6 4.0 with 155,000 miles and sucks on gas. BUT i was wrong! This system is working. I'm not getting 60% more mpg and dont notice more power like the website says i would but i went from 15mpg to 20mpg. For me thats huge! I still dont understand how this hho thing completely works and I really dont care to. All i know is i'm saving money! 5 mpg is alot for me cause I'm driving over 700 miles a week! Plus my Jeep starts WAY better now and sounds better, HOW? Again i dont know how but I'm happy with it. So dont really care how.

I put the same system in her 98 Ford Windstar V6 3.8. But I did it right this time. Had her dad take it to his shop and test the before and after. Went from 18mpg to 25mpg! Better then my Jeep!

Maybe you guys should just try it if you haven't. Only takes couple hours to install. If they stand by that lifetime warranty just return it after. Or just buy a cheap one from ebay for $40..

Oh and when I ordered my girls system i got it in the mail in 4 days!

Thanks,
Chris

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#58 Consumer Comment

The C.A.R.B. # does not mean much..

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

Quote from the California Gov website...

"Exempted parts are add-on or modified parts that have undergone an ARB engineering evaluation. If the part or modification is shown to not increase vehicle emissions, it is granted an exemption to emission control system anti-tampering laws"...

So essentially it could conclude as well that the part does nothing. All the number means is that when you go for inspection if they question the part they can look up the number and see it is exempt so it won't cause you to fail emissions. However if any other "mods" and "adjustments" are done that tamper with the vehicles emissions and control systems, it would not pass. So the kit in itself is legal to install if it has that CARB #..that is all.

There is still no sanctioned test results that prove this device does anything to improve gas mileage or performance.

No one has claimed hydrogen itself can not be used as a fuel. Manufacturers have built hydrogen powered cars but they are really expensive...It cost Honda $300,000 to build each one. So it is not economical enough yet. Rockets use it too. Some cities use hydrogen powered buses.  But using hydrogen as a fuel is not the same thing as extracting if from H2O in your car and then injecting it into the engine and expecting it to do anything.

Hydrogen powered vehicles have to fill up at a hydrogen station. Well if they extracting the hydrogen from water....what source are they using to generate the electricity do do this? Whatever it is I am sure not all of it is good for the environment. It always comes back to physics no matter how you slice it.  I hope one day someone comes up with a way to change physics and give us free clean energy but I do not think this will happen in our lifetimes. Best it seems we are doing is starting to produce electric cars.  Guess hydrogen didn't cut it?
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#59 Consumer Comment

fraud pure and simple

AUTHOR: Ramjet - (U.S.A.)

Mrhydroguy In spite of all your silly rantings, you are indeed a fraud and you know it.

What you are doing here is conning people into discussing this ridiculous product. Just getting people to discuss it tends to give it some validity and it tends to keep it higher in searches.

Of course you know all this and you are playing games with people.

Just wanted to let you know that many of us are familiar with how scam artists operate.

Bottom line is that you are just a common, ordinary, everyday, run of the mill fraud, nothing more.
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#60 General Comment

This technology does wor

AUTHOR: Overjoyed - (United States of America)

I am not a scientist but I have used a hydrogen generator from Alternative Gas Solutions in Az. for 18 mo.  My car is a1999 Saturn SL-1

Having driven @ 50,000 miles sinced installed I have had a 35% highway mileage increase at 60mph.  many of those miles have been up and down a mountain in 2nd & 3rd gears  at  @ 30-40 mph and still i get between 28 -30 mpg.  Whenever i have called for advice and/or information I have always been politely received and the information given. As a result, judging from my experience with the technology and it's manufacturers, I can only conclude that those who consider this a scam or something that does not or cannot work have either never used it, used it improperly, have no idea what they are talking about,  have an axe to grind, or don't understand the meaning of integrity.  I never hesitate to reccommend this technology because it does work!!!!! 



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#61 Consumer Comment

Getting your system to work properly

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

Hello Jeremy here again. It's been awhile I have been busy in another industry (solar) as well as installing HOD systems for customers if you need help getting your system up and running as well as some suggestions on how to tune your engine to perform even better on HHO call me at 619  408  7854 Jeremy glad to help free of charge!
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#62 Consumer Comment

Bought two HHO units from the Mileage Shop

AUTHOR: ObjectiveConsumer - (USA)

In my opinion, well made HHO systems work!

I installed two HHO units bought from the Mileage Shop.  Before I write about my experiences, I want to comment on their customer service.  Both units shipped the day after the purchase and received within 5 days.  The customer service (the tech support) always answered when I called, at least 10 times, for various discussions and support issues.

The first unit was installed in my 2008 Chevy Impala, 3.9L V6.  The first couple of days after the install was the best experience.  In my untrained opinion, I think it's the CO that has been built in the engine boosting the performance as it burns, acting as extra fuel.  The car literally glided.  The car accelerated even on a slight up hill when I had my foot off the accelerator which never happened before the HHO.  Also noticed easy gear shift and quieter engine right off the bat.

Getting hands around the improvement on the MPG came about a bit tougher.  I never precisely measured MPG other than looking at the in-vehicle computer gauge.  In fact, while noticing improved performance, I was not sure about improved mileage other than having a feeling that a full tank of gas lasts a little longer.

In trying to get more precise percentage MPG improvement, I ran the vehicle with the HHO off for 3 days.  I was just busy with my work and did not have time to do any testing for 3 days.  On the 3rd day which was yesterday, I took a series of short run tests.  And the results are as follow;

City Driving (local neighborhood route with no traffic light and 34 stop signs) - topped off my fuel tank and drove 18.4 miles.  When topped off again at the same pump, 0.975 Gallon was used.  18.87MPG.  When completed at 9:28PM, the outside temperature was 55F.

Highway Driving (Set cruse control to 70MPH, and there was 3 traffic lights in the test rout) - 24.4 miles and used 0.872 Gallon.  27.98MPG.  When completed at 9:59PM, the outside temperature was 55F.

Took the car home to reset the O2 sensor before turning on the HHO system.

City Driving - exact same route.  18.4 miles and used 0.710 Gallon.  25.92 MPG (37% improvement).  When completed at 12:33AM, the outside temperature was 50F.  The traffic condition was very similar.

Highway Driving - exact same route - 24.4 miles and used 0.771 Gallon.  (13% improvement).  When completed at 1:01AM, the outside temperature was 50F.  The traffic condition was very similar.

Now, it's extremely difficult (or impossible) to do more than one road tests in exactly the same environments.  Having said that, I am convinced that the improvements in both city and highway tests are enough to offset any environmental factors that may cause to fluctuate MPG.

The second unit is installed in a 1999 Ford Mustang with 3.8L V6 with over 250,000 miles on it.  The initial experiences were identical to that of the Impala.  The engine knock it was experiencing in up hills is drastically reduced.  The similar MPG road tests will be done over the next few weeks.

For now, I am planning to do more tests on Impala this week and next with varying HHO flow rates.  If I find anything different to change my mind in the future test runs, I'll be sure to report it here.

Disclaimer - The reason I have experimented with these HHO units is because I care about the negative environmental impact that we all leave behind us.  Once I am convinced that HHO works beyond any doubt over the next few weeks, I want to help others use HHO systems.  And plan on distributing Mileage Shop HHO systems in Atlanta area.
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#63 Consumer Comment

Extremely Satisfied Customer

AUTHOR: Overjoyed - (United States of America)

Readers

I am amazed reading the claims of fraud, scam, useless, not effective relevant to this product and their consumer Relations as they are completely false and use bad science in my experience.  Let me make it clear that I am in no way affilliated with either The Mileage Shop or Alternative Gas Solutions other than bein an outstanding satisfied customer of both their product and customer service.

I bought my unit from Alternative Gas Solutions (AGS) in Prescot, Az. at their business locatipon  As a result I cannot speak for The Mileage Shop.  I went to the AGS business location in a mall.  It is a legitimate business operation and not in a "garage".  They, AGS, went over all aspects of the unit at the time I bought it including installation time, electrolite ratios, and AMP guage usage.  It did take a longer time to install it but they indicated that given the cramped space in the places where the unit would usually be put it might take longer.  My unit had to be placed under the left front fender which is  not the preferred place in front of the radiator.  The information and installation directions were  in clear, concise, simple language with simple drawings illustrating the written directions.  they also toldf me that it might take awhile to find the most efficient  electrolite and amperage levels for my vehicle and that it could depend on the condition of my motor and that close attention to my AMP guage would tell me what I needed to know.  It did take a few weeks to find those levels and AMP meter does tell  exactly what is required to get maximum efficiency.

The unit was put in my 1999 SL-1 Saturn Sedam with automatic transmission and 150,000 miles on it in Nov. 2011.  They recommended that I  install a K&N air filter for better  performance.  Since I had done that 2 yrs previous it was not necessary.  Prior to the unit's installation I was getting 36 -38 MPG at 60 MPG and 26-28 MPG in city driving.  Once installed I get 48-50 MPG at 60 MPH and 31-34 MPG in the city.  Furthermore I worked this summer driving on a narrow logging road in Idaho where the speeds were between 5 -25  MPH  and got 21-23 MPG while driving mostly in 1st and 2nd gears.  Once my mileage dropped significantly. I discovered that the PVC, Oxygen sensors, and MAP sensor were bad.  Once replaced the good mileage returned.  I should say that with the exception of the PVC valve which was 30,000 miles old the others had not been changed for at least 100,000 miles so I don't believe the generator caused these sensor failures.  Currently my Saturn has 176,000 miles on  it and still producing the increased mileage.

Several times since the unit has been installed I have called customer service with a question.  They have always answered the phone promptly, courteously and patiently.  Once when they could  not give me a definitive answer immediately they made an appointment at my convenience to call back  and they did.  With all due respect the notion that their customer service is inadequate is incredulous to me. 

I find the report from the "Physicist" not only to be totally false as to the value and performance of the injected hydrogen but scientifically questionable.  The hydrogen is extracted from the water by electrolicis a scientific  experiment done in science classes by most middle school students.  Since hydrogen is a much higher energy fuel than gasolne or diesel it promotes a much more complete cumbustion of the fuel. Instead of the fuel going out the tail pipe, as much does even with a catalitic converter, it's used in combustion thereby giving more bang for the amount of fuel

In the end I can't say that everyone will get the results that I have,  Some probably will get better some worse.  I have and will not hesitate recommending this trechnology to anyone because IT DOES WORK.

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#64 Consumer Comment

Results May Vary - In My Case NONE

AUTHOR: Vcarvis - (United States of America)

I have purchased 3 units from The Mileage Shop over 3 months ago. I installed one on a '95 Tahoe with a 350 CI engine.  Installed a dual unit on a '09 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel.  I have yet to install the third unit... because I have seen zero results on the first two installations.

Before some wise crack tells me "Your installation must be the problem", I have contacted 'support' and adjusted over a dozen times in well calculated and measured increments.  I have even contacted MrHydroGuy for tips... and nothing has made a difference in these vehicles using their suggestions... as in ZERO mpg gain, much less the other so-called improvements (ie. smoother shifting, better starting, etc... NOT!  If you feel you got this, I suggest it is the 'feel good' placebo effect and not true changes in your auto.)

I am not a novice in this field.  I have perfected the best and cheapest method without altering or adding any hardware on ANY car or truck, gas or diesel.  My accomplishments with these methods have been proven in 5 vehicles with over 350,000 miles of road testing.  When I tried the HHO generator systems from The Mileage Shop, I was told to stop what I was doing and follow their methods for correctly working their units.  I did so... and immediately lost about 10% fuel efficiency and about 5% HP.  I was told this was normal until the 'break in' period of about 2,500 miles.  I gave it time and saw no better results.

I adjusted the mixtures upward and downward using the amp gauge as a measurement control.  I've tried the units as low as 10 amp and as high as 35 amp... no change.  I now have simply given up, turned off their units, and gone back to my special additive mix that has proven to work.  Side by side, here are the comparisons:

'95 Tahoe as stock:  11.3 mpg city... 15.8 highway
'95 Tahoe w/ HHO:   11.3 mpg city... 16.0 highway [negligible variance]
'95 Tahoe w/Additive blend:  13.5 mpg city... 17.8 highway

'09 Ram 2500 Diesel Stock:  13.5 mpg city... 16.8 highway
'09 Ram 2500 Diesel w/ Dual HHO unit:  14.5 mpg city... 17.2 mpg highway [Negligible IMO]
'09 Ram 2500 Diesel w/ Additive blend:  15.4 mpg city... 19.2 mpg highway

So, whatever you think the physics are, the methods for adjusting EFIE, O2 sensors, the 'tweaks' necessary to make the units work as sold... they are just too much trouble for the average consumer.  I work on my own vehicles and I spent maybe 100 hours in actual time trying to make these things work.  I understand basic principles explained by so-called experts that this process is an ADDITIVE ENHANCER to burn gasoline more efficiently... and so is my purely additive mix that does BETTER for me than what I have tried using these units.  I use a controlled blend of two petrochemicals to get the results I speak of, and I've gone back to those exclusively for now.  I have achieved my best results with a '97 Toyota Camry 2.2L engine that now gets 28 to 31 mpg city and 37.5 mpg highway... using an AC!  My best results with the Camry appear to be 39 mpg AVG in spring and fall with 90% highway and 10% city driving w/o AC.

As far the company itself, I had no problem getting my orders and their customer support was friendly and supposedly knowledgeable... it's just that nothing they told me to do worked!  As for the 'Branch Manager', he can kiss my a$$ as I tried to explain to him some problems that would occur if I became a dealer.  He promptly nullified my partnership to be a dealer and threatened to sue me for nothing more than offering constructive criticism and my actual results.

So there you have it.  My proof is noted above.  I will warn anyone that exceeding 20 amps output from an HHO generator will probably kill your alternator in a much shorter period of time than it was designed to last... and possibly leave you stranded somewhere with a dead battery.  That was something that I immediately noted on my '95 Tahoe.  In less than a week my battery was barely turning over the engine, so be warned.   As for my mixture additive, I will not give that up freely as I took 5 years fine tuning it to the average results of a 10% increase in MPG for ANY vehicle, and about a 5 to 7% increase in HP.  Of course, no one I believe has stated what ethanol has done to all these processes for mpg.  It negates 75% of what I achieved with 100% gasoline, but at least I have maintained mpg on my autos whereas most anyone else will tell you that since ethanol has been mandated they have LOST an average of 10% in mpg and can feel the power loss as well.

Sincerely,

Victor Carvis
830-370-7565

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#65 Consumer Comment

mileage shop does not stand behind their products

AUTHOR: mt arkansas - (United States of America)

We also ordered a hydrogen generator from this company...the generator does not work, has never worked and all they will do is suggest for us to experiment until we find the sweet spot for our vehicle.  we have cleaned and recalibrated and talke to Chris, Skip, and Scott and our unit still does not work. The amp gauge is broken and the generator leaks and They will not refund our money.  
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#66 General Comment

One more thing...

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

Also look through the above responses Jeremy has provided...note the ONE point he will NEVER respond to.  There has not been a single EPA sanctioned test result showing these devices that he sells to bring about any increase in fuel efficiency.  This IS the market standard in this field.  How could one claim to have a device which increases fuel economy upwards of 30% and NOT EXPECT to be asked for an EPA sanctioned result?  There could be some mechanism though which these devices might work that I am just simply unaware of.  I don't know everything...not even within my field.  I could be wrong.  However Jeremy, like a televangelist, just expects you to take his claims on faith.  Where are the EPA sanctioned test results, Jeremy?  Why will you not address this point?  It's because YOU KNOW you are a con artist.

Kevin Lyon
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#67 General Comment

More of the same....

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

I can not keep spending huge amounts of time rebutting the exact same crap all over again.  Unlike Jeremy, I am working diligently to add to the body of knowledge rather than taking advantage of the general publics scientific illiteracy for a buck.  Look through Jeremy's list of "answers" above and then scroll on up an you will see where I have addressed each an every one of them.  If anyone reading this would like to talk to a physicist regarding these devices, you can look me up.  


I can't post contact information on here however my name is Kevin Lyon and you can find me under the student directory on the University of Arkansas web-sight. 



 I am a Ph.D. student in physics.  I am NOT a mechanical engineer however I have lunch with a couple on a regular basis and this crap gets tossed around for S$G's.  Still I would be glad to tell you the other side of this con, why it is a con, and why Jeremy is well aware of it.  It is an interesting story as SOME of what Jeremy says above is actually accurate.  Hydrogen injection HAS been used with positive results in diesel engines to increase efficiency.  I will be glad to explain to you, in layman's terms, what these people were doing and why it has absolutely NOTHING to do with Jeremey's product.  
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#68 Consumer Suggestion

To Kevin

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

It seems Kevin that your attempts to discredit me and this technology has failed by your own hand. That's whats great about truth it screams right in the face of the non-resolute. You have been proven wrong already, but now you hold on to name calling and your ego to save you and it simple will not work brother. The people who work at the company in question are good helpful people who provide a viable product with a warranty that is unmatched by anyone on the market. Thank you ripoff report for having such tools as this website. One by one side by side "We the people" will create the future for ourselves and our posterity. Much love and respect for everyone!

Jeremy
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#69 Consumer Comment

More proof that HHO is being used already!

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

http://www.ronnmotors.com/cms/
 RONN motors built a Super car using this technology. Check it out for yourself.
 

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#70 Consumer Comment

common arguments to HHO answered.

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

I've put together a list of some of the most common arguments against HHO and Hydrogen on Demand and how to defend the technology against them. A=argument R=rebuttal

A. "It doesn't work. It has never been proven to increase economy or decrease emissions by anyone..."

R. Incorrect! The concept was proven to work in a laboratory environment, and documented by the US Dept. of Transportation in a publication called "Guidelines For Use of Hydrogen in Commercial
Vehicles". Reduction in fuel use and emissions was below 8% in the lab test, and it was performed on a diesel engine, but it is proof that the concept of using vehicle power to produce hydroxy and inject it for a net thermodynamic gain is viable.

A. "It violates the laws of thermodynamics/physics. You cannot get more energy out of a system then you put into it. It takes energy from the alternator and horsepower from the car to make the HHO, and you'll never recover all the energy used to make the HHO by burning it in your engine. The system creates a net loss of energy and there's no gains."

R. That argument is absolutely correct when applied to burning the HHO as fuel in the engine, and this is why we don't have cars literally running on water, or even partial water cars yet. However, HHO injection systems are not using the HHO for fuel but rather an enabler for a more thorough extraction of the energy content already contained in the gasoline or diesel, hence better combustion. It does this by interaction with the fuel chemically in the thermal catalytic cracking process within the engine, increasing the volume of extractable fuel, burn rate, flame propagation within the combustion chamber, and intensity of the burn. A net gain in energy is created from recovered thermodynamic losses while using the system properly. The article listed in the previous rebuttal is the proof that what I write is true.

A. "Our modern cars are already (insert really high percentage here) efficient today, so there's no room for improving combustion because the engine is already designed to burn the gasoline as good as it can be burned."

R. Most findings put the average efficiency of today's cars (or engines)under 30%. Efficiency is being referred to as the ability to transform the chemical energy of the gasoline into mechanical energy at the wheels. The gasoline itself is being burned and consumed with great efficiency, but often too late in the combustion cycle to provide all the useful energy potential it can provide. Studies have shown the average fuel economy of a vehicle has changed very little, and in some cases has gone down for the last 30 years, yet technology has emerged that allows advances in fuel economy never before possible. The technology simply is not being implemented. To summarize in the most simple way, gasoline does not fully burn unless it is completely vaporized. Fuel injection systems inject fuel droplets, not vapors. Though droplets are a fine mist that resembles a vapor, it is still liquid fuel. Phase changing the fuel completely from a liquid to a vapor is a relatively easy thing to do, yet the industry circumvents the technologies to do exactly that. While the fuel becomes nearly completely vaporized in the combustion cycle on today's cars, timing is everything, and the gasoline by itself does not release all it's potential at the critical crank angle. The catalytic converter on vehicles would not be needed today if we were burning our fuel as efficient as you say. It is likely you are referring to the efficiency at which both the engine AND the catalytic converter combined can completely burn the gasoline.

A. "If it's so great, how come auto manufacturers haven't done it and aren't starting to do it? Why hasn't it been in the news and highly publicized? Where are the independently confirmed tests?"

R. Auto manufacturers have likely not used HHO technology for the same reasons they have not used many other new technologies in 30 years to phase change the fuel from liquid to vapor, and burn it more completely without pollution. Let's say they built an engine that really was (insert high percentage here) efficient at converting gasoline to kinetic energy. Such high efficiency would present much less carbon deposits, sludge in the engine, and pollution out of the exhaust. If
there was no sludge and carbon buildup in the engine, it is likely the engine would last a very long time and maintain like new performance. Much longer than 150k to 200k we are used to.



There would be less of a need to change the oil also, because the oil would not get dirty or break down as easily due to the lack of negative bi-products from the combustion process. Using synthetic oil would extend oil life possibly for the life of the vehicle. With less need for oil changes and engine replacements/repair/maintenance entire industries would be practically wiped out. It's likely you wouldn't feelthe need to purchase a new car for quite a long time too. The auto industry would ultimately kill itself, and the economy. This is likely why we, the public, are spoon-fed better fuel economy in small steps rather then having GM and Ford roll out a 100MPG car for us to buy. This is likely also the reason we (in the US) are banned from having certain high mileage vehicles, particularly the 50+ MPG diesels that other countries are allowed to have.

HHO has been publicized in the news for both positive and negative publicity on a small scale. It is likely not covered more often because it has not become a mainstream technology. It has not become a mainstream technology because of the reasons mentioned above and below.

Some people claim to have independently confirmed tests confirming performance of HHO injection systems, but no large, well-known organization has taken the initiative to do extensive real-world testing publicly. This is likely because it's not a mainstream technology. It's not a mainstream technology because it's not being tested and confirmed, and because the auto manufacturers are not yet using it in production models. Dismal coverage from mainstream media discourages the
pursuit of more testing as HHO is sometimes negatively portrayed as a scam because of lack of credible evidence. As you can see, the whole thing is a "catch-22" as they say.

A. "If HHO worked, you would be able to install your device, switch it on and measure better MPG and then switch it off and have the mileage revert back to normal."

R. Some people have reportedly done just that, but in reality most of the time there is no way this could occur because of the way the emissions system is engineered on today's modern cars. An increase in combustion efficiency from ANY device (not just HHO) results in less pollution in the exhaust. Less pollution in the exhaust equates to more oxygen content. More oxygen content is detected by the oxygen sensor in the exhaust stream. Oxygen is not allowed to increase by a large amount because of the programming within the ECU (computer), as this would signify a lean burn condition, leaner than the factory tuned AFR (air tofuel ratio) the vehicle is tuned for. The computer adds fuel until the factory set parameters for oxygen content are met. A small increase in economy is usually seen as the computer takes time to adjust to the
increased oxygen content of the exhaust. The increase will dissipate after factory parameters for oxygen content (or lack thereof) are fulfilled by increased fuel consumption.

A. "HHO has been tested by Mythbusters, Dateline NBC, Popular Mechanics, and countless other people, and been proven not to work."

R. That is absolutely correct. It has been proven not to work the way THEY implemented it. Just because someone tests a product and publicizes it does not mean that they are an expert on the technology. Has any of those people done extensive testing in the 100% correct manner? How do we know for sure that they did? The Mythbusters episode clearly showed they made big mistakes. Their unit produced negligible amounts of gas. Their electrodes in their electrolyzer appeared to be shorted electrically. They did not appear to put any electrolyte in the water. Dateline NBC did one test, on one car, with one system, one mechanic, and one EPA lab. Their testing is faulty out of the gate because there were so many possible variables that could effect the outcome of the testing. Did the system fail? Did the mechanic tune it right? Was the car in proper tune for the HOD system when it returned to the EPA lab to be tested again? Did the EPA lab test the system appropriately? Were the modifications tampered with before the test? Having a test with several systems, vehicles, mechanics, and labs would have been acceptable testing. Popular Mechanics editor Mike Allen has clearly stated that he does no adjustment of the ECU's sensor readings during his testing. This is NOT the correct method to test the system, for the reasons described in the previous rebuttal above. I have yet to see anyone do a 100% correct test of an HHO system.

A. "You're not producing nearly enough HHO on demand to make any considerable difference in the combustion process."

R. That would be true if we were trying to use the HHO as a fuel, but that does not apply to the method we are employing to increase the energy yield of the on-board gasoline fuel. To fully understand you must break down a single combustion cycle which lasts a few milliseconds into a step by step analysis of what is actually happening in the combustion chamber. Even my attempts to summarize this in writing will not begin to touch on the complexity of what is actually happening on the molecular level. "Thermal Catalytic Cracking" is the name of this process, which transforms our liquid gasoline into kinetic energy at the wheels.

Gasoline is an incredibly complex chemical comprised of long chains of bonded molecules. A small sampling of these molecules that are bonded together to make gasoline include Methane, Ethane, Propane, Butane, Hexane, and Octane. The process begins as endothermic, requiring heat to start the phase change of the liquid droplets into the burnable vapors that we want. The fuel droplets are injected into the chamber and the spark goes off, providing the energy needed to fracture some of bonds within the gasoline molecules. When the bonds of these molecules are fractured we end up with smaller molecules, many of which are "radicals". That is- they are unstable atomically and want to bond to other molecules to obtain stability.

Often, the only thing that stands in the way from some of these molecules stabilizing into useful fuel instead of becoming wasted, non-combustible pollution is a hydrogen atom, oxygen atom, or a few of both. If we inject an amount of "surplus" monatomic hydrogen and oxygen into the combustion chamber at the precise moment the thermal catalytic cracking is occurring, it stands to reason that more of these molecular radicals will stabilize themselves and become usable fuel. If this
sounds like "pseudo-science" to some, the well respected "Avogadro's Law" can be directly applied to what I'm describing here. If we recover even a small percentage of those molecules in a millisecond with the process, and continue to do the same for the duration we run the engine, we will recover a large amount of usable thermodynamic energy and fuel over time. Even a small amount of HHO can do this at the molecular level. This is what we are doing with an HHO/Hydrogen on demand system. We are effectively "raising the octane level" of the gasoline.

Obviously if the gasoline we already have is being made more "consumable" by being processed this way, it stands to reason that we will not require nearly the same amount of fuel droplets injected into the chamber in the first place to get the same performance and power from the engine. This is why most every HHO system includes the use of a method to reduce the flow of fuel into the engine, or a "leaning" method. Leading me to my next rebuttal....

A."Its not the HHO that's giving people gains in fuel economy, its the EFIEs, MAP enhancers, and various other computer fooling techniques that are causing any gains, and leaning out the fuel is dangerous for the engine. You can burn through valves and pistons if you lean out the fuel mixture. You lose performance as well. "

R.You'll be surprised to see that I actually AGREE with the point that EFIEs, enhancers, and mods are the reasons people are getting better economy. They are! People are leaning out the fuel trim of their vehicles and still claiming good performance with no problems when they run HHO, but HOW are they able to do that? You are also correct about a lean mixture burning through pistons and valves and damaging the engine. Loss of performance is common with lean mixtures too, and emissions actually go up, not down. However, many HHO users are reporting EGT (exhaust gas temperature) readings that are lower than stock or the same as stock at a much higher AFR. Performance stays the same or improves while emissions go down.

This would not be possible if something was not enabling these results to occur. What we are altering in the thermal catalytic cracking processallows us to do this, and how well we alter it determines how much we can "lean out" the fuel mixture but not suffer the usual symptoms of doing so. Lean burn engine testing was done in the 70's by NASA and is often touted as evidence that HHO works even though it was much different. While NASA used pure hydrogen for the testing and injected larger amounts, the primary principle remains the same for HHO users. We alter the T.C.C. process, which provides a larger ratio of combustible fuel to non-combustible fuel particulates. With monatomic oxygen and hydrogen, we intensify the conversion of chemical to kinetic energy in our usable fuel molecules and ensure it's done more completely as the
flamespread propagates completely through the combustion chamber.

A."Leaning out of the fuel trims is not necessary. If HHO really worked it would work without having to do that."

R.To a certain point, many HHO experimenters are not "leaning out" the fuel trim at all. We are in essence, "creating a more powerful gasoline"that does not require the same quantity to be used. You must take into consideration that if you would only put an HHO device on your vehicle you would likely raise the oxygen level of the exhaust as better combustion begins to take place from this "more powerful gasoline" and pollution is reduced. This oxygen is detected in the exhaust and compensated for, by the ECU adding more fuel until the o2 sensor readings look as they were programmed to look for typical non-enhanced gasoline. The only way to see any MPG gains is to stop the ECU from "seeing" the added oxygen you are creating by doing things better, and the only way to do that is to alter the o2 sensor readings, or lessen the amount of fuel going in manually because the ECU would otherwise want to add fuel for no good reason. So, we are actually just trying to get the balance back where the ECU is content with it's readings and is not adding unnecessary fuel to the engine. We can also tune (based on personal preference) beyond that point and begin taking even more fuel away based on how well we are altering the thermal catalytic cracking process with our system.

A. "Using a catalytic cracking process to break down gasoline molecules is bogus theory, you end up with smaller molecules that contain less energy than the original long-chain gasoline molecules, so there's no benefit to be gained from the process."

R. This is the mainstream concensus that is perpetuated by highly educated combustion engineers and physicists all over the world. This probably is the primary core of why this technology is not fully understood and is easily dismissed. They are not taking into account howhydroxy gas is able to enhance and allow the process, which would not work otherwise because the reformed fuel would take too long to burn without hydroxy. I will simplify my explanation by saying that our focus with an HOD system is to perform a better catalytic cracking of the fuel, and to expedite the burn of that fuel within the combustion chamber. It is true that the smaller cracked molecules yield less joule per mole potential energy than the potential of the original gasoline molecule, but the key word here is POTENTIAL. What is the biggest source of energy loss in internal combustion engines? Heat. When we refer to time in the combustion process, we're referring to tiny fractions of a second or milliseconds. A normal unmodified engine will take more time to extract the potential energy of the gasoline, because it's bonded molecules are more complex and take longer to break down to usable energy to slingshot the piston down the chamber. More time= more heat released to the cylinder walls, and more wasted energy not being utilized to push the piston down on the stroke. Now some of you are scratching your heads here because you equate heat with the explosion inside the chamber and assume that's what we want to happen. Sure. But it's really the expansion of the various gasses in the combustion chamber, not the explosion itself that pushes the piston down at the critical crank angle. By the time the explosion completely occurs the piston is usually out-running the flame front. Therefore it is advantageous to focus as much of the usable fuel's energy as early in the cycle as possible. When we exploit the power of an HOD system to improve the combustion process, the reformed molecules we've made are easier to "tap" for their BTU energy potential, and thus, with the assistance of hydroxy, faster to burn. Faster=less heat loss, more extracted energy. So even though they contain less joules per mole we are able to actually extract a higher percentage of the energy they do have and focus it to do useful work, to push down the piston. Keep in mind this shaves off a few fractions of a second, and a fraction of the heat that would've been lost otherwise. Your engine isn't going to run cold because of it, but once again over time those gains of energy in fractions of a second add up to recovered thermodynamic losses. This could also be why so many Hydroxy experimenters have reported a cooler running engine while using such a system.
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#71 General Comment

Perfect:)

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

"I see you asking for research and proof, you're a physicist, why dont you challenge your teachings and open your mind to the possibility that you don't know everything."

This is so classic stupid I had to respond.  This statement sums up the entire argument these people put forward, reworded, over and over again.  How DARE I ask for PROOF of a claim which violates fundamental laws of known physics.  How DARE I ask for an EPA sanctioned test before spending a very large sum of money on a device which presumably will increase my gas mileage by leaps and bounds but the physical principals of how it works are beyond the knowledge of the designer.  How DARE I not open my mind to the POSSIBILITY that this device MIGHT work by some yet not understood means and just drop several hundred dollars to find out for sure?  In fact, why don't I just send 1000 bucks to peter popov and have him pray my car into better fuel efficiency?  I think this entire post shows the idiocy of the author and exposes this con better than anything I could ever post.  Thank you.
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#72 General Comment

Still Here...but busy actually WORKING TO SOLVE our energy issues.

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

***************************************
Jeremy and his kind like to bury any response which exposes their con rather than make transparent and pathetic attempts to actually respond to points they know they can not defend themselves against.  The idea is to continue to post crap without substance over and over again until one simply cannot devote the time to respond to all the ridiculous assertions.  I will take time to respond to his "studies" posted above, none of which serve to legitimize these mileage shop devices.  However I am a graduate student and I don't have eons of time to devote to this as jeremy and the milage shop do...hey...do a reverse lookup of the mileage shops address...funny...that pretty building isn't there... unless it is hidden somewhere in a trailer park.  At any rate, for the time being, I am just going to repost my previous post, to which Jeremy might respond if he grows a pair.
**************************************
First of all, I would like to ask a moderator to remove or re-crop the images that Jeremy seems to feel the need to post which overlap all of the text on this forum.  This is little more than spam and I don't understand how posting pictures of rather shoddy automotive work helps his case.  One to Jeremy's response:
  
Jeremy Wrote:
"Well as we can see Kevin doesn't even know how "these devices" violate conservation of energy laws and has yet to provide a detailed explanation as to his claim."
  
Response:
These devices, specifically the one from the mileage shop, claims to create hydrogen and oxygen gas from water, at the expense of energy obtained from burning gasoline, and reintroduce this mixture of hydrogen and oxygen back into the engine to be used as fuel.  The conservation of energy issue should be clear.  If every process along the way is 100% efficient, these devices could at best only hope to break even.  As the processes by which they function are far from
100% efficient these devices actually cause a net decrease in vehicle efficiency (though we are talking about very small amounts of energy relative to the average vehicle's power...thus the decrease in efficiency should be exceedingly small...i.e. these devices do a whole lot of nothing)  This is exactly what is found when these devices are put through an EPA sanctioned test for efficiency.  Dateline actually did a marvelous investigation of one such company selling these devices.  Here is a link: 
  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv9vMzXJbho
  
Jeremy Wrote:
"Not only that but here is a customer telling you they also have installed one on there vehicle and received an increase in gas mileage."
  
It has taken me almost 30 years to realize that people just say things.  And some people lie...about anything... particularly if there is money involved.  Every moment of my training as a professional scientist has also lead me to a clear understanding that anecdotal evidence is as unreliable as it is ever present.
  
Jeremy Wrote:
"Kevin you have yet to say anything intelligent you have only been spouting propaganda you heard from someone else."
 I will leave the veracity of my responses to be judged by those who happen to read them.  After all, I am here to convince them to seek actual professional advice before falling for a scam.  I'm not here to convince you as you are a con
artist.  I am here to convince everyone else, not to take my word for it (as they don't know that I am a physicist...here I am just some guy on the internet who CLAIMS to be a ph.d. student in physics as a small arkansas university) but rather to call a local physics or engineering department, and sit down and ask someone's opinion of these devices.  You will find they pretty much unanimously agree with my assertion that these devices are a fraud.
  
Jeremy Wrote:

"And your only support  to your claim is that Autozone doesn't have these on there shelves (But they do have the Tornado) or to call the physics department to get your proof. "
  
I will look up this tornado.  Granted this is a pretty weak argument on my part.  The point that I was trying to make is that I am SHOCKED that auto-zone does not carry such devices even though they are a fraud.  There is money to be made.
 The only reason I could conceive of that they would not carry these devices is that they fear the inevitable lawsuits.  However this does not stop Walgreens from carrying homeopathic "medications" in their shelves right next to real medications.  This is also a blatantly fraudulent industry and yet...there it is on the shelves of a major pharmaceutical chain.  None the less I will have a look at this "Tornado" device.
  
Jeremy Wrote:
"Lets just look at that for a minute Autozone as far as I can tell isn't the pinnacle of automotive products."

  Response:
I can't discern a point here....Are you saying they would not sell a product that could increase fuel efficiency by over 100%?  Besides, I have seen pictures of YOUR work as you have posted it all over this forum and frankly, autozone parts certainly
look less....rigged.
  
Jeremy Wrote:
"Consulting your local physics department would be good if they have done experiments on Hydroxy gas then they would have an educated opinion at least. But like I have said in earlier rebuttals you can do 5 minutes of searching to find students and educators doing experiments in this field and getting good results. "
  
Response:
I have tested the concept of conservation of energy countless times in countless experiments.  It always seems to hold true to as great a precision as one cares to measure.  These devices purport to violate one of the most sacred axioms
of physics.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  This is where the EPA sanctioned test results come in....funny...you have yet to provide any...from any such device obtained by anyone.  Why is that Jeremy?

Jeremy Wrote:
"Enough with this Kevin guy he is obviously non-constructive."

  Response:
Cast away the opinion of the physicist.  That seems like a good idea.  But please, do get ample advice from actual authorities on this matter before being conned out of your cash.  If such devices worked OF COURSE they would be on these new hybrid vehicles and frankly every vehicle that rolls of the lot.  Companies would be adopting every possible rendition of these devices in an attempt to maintain competitive marketability.  But they are not...are they.  Keep this in mind, the guy who works on your transmission is probably a smart guy, but he is not a scientist nor an engineer.  The
ENGINEERS working for these automotive companies know these devices are crap...I would respect their expert opinions if I were you.

Jeremy Wrote
"P.S. Not only does HHO increase MPG but it drastically reduces emissions as well. Check out the book "Fuel from Water". In there you can see and read about auto manufacturers who have had these devices on their vehicles. As well as all the
physics you can stand [KEVIN]. It is a good question "Why haven't these devices been implemented already?". Only way we can get that answer is from the manufacturers themselves. Just go ahead and do that and see how far you get! "
  
Yet you can not produce a single EPA certified test result showing an increase in MPG rating with one of these devices turned on.  Why is the Jeremy?
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#73 Consumer Comment

Mileage Shop

AUTHOR: Wayne - (United States of America)





Ive now bought my 4th Hydrogen Kit from the Mileage

Shop. Ive just started installing the 4th one.

Im really pleased how quickly they were delivered. The quality

 and completeness of the kits are top notch.  The advice I got from the Technical

Department was right on every time. What a neat company. Thank you Mileage Shop



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#74 Consumer Comment

Thought this was a common Goal?

AUTHOR: Drivefast - (United States of America)

I am a customer of this company, and have been very happy with the product. It's not a miracle device that can double or triple your mileage, but it does work and I am saving money using it. Also i received the product, no problems, everything was contained in the box, and it shipped the day after I ordered it. I have seen a few other consumers that have posted the same thing, and truly that is the reason for this post. Actually, I found this researching other companies that see the same type of product, http://www.ripoffreport.com/motor-vehicle/hydro-fuel-generator/hydro-fuel-generator-hydrofue-e3c88.htm   look familiar? And the day that it was rebutted, this post started. But that was just me doing my own research on a technology that I have now proven to myself.  I use, and recommend this system to people who ask, I received a 30-35% gain in my economy on my car, and thats something to be happy about.

  To Kevin the Physicist, saying that something is not possible limits possibility. You mean to tell us, with all of your knowledge, that we understand everything? On a molecular, physical, and every other level the books have been written? To protect your "laws" you are preaching that we know and understand all. That what you were taught, is all that can be true because the laws of science protect what you know. Last time I checked we were a forward moving society which challenges that of popular belief to more forward in our existence. "Laws" are only "laws" until they are broken. And for you to "know" that the possibility of hydrogen, working in the very inefficient platform of the internal combustion engine, could help to every so slightly increase the ability of that engine to make power, or reacts in a way that allows the motor to be more efficient in the combustion process, and allow for better economy is ignorant. I see you asking for research and proof, you're a physicist, why dont you challenge your teachings and open your mind to the possibility that you don't know everything. Prove it to yourself, I did, and I may not know why it works on a physical and mathematical level, but I also am not so educated, that I cant think for myself.
 
Come on guys, Dont we want this to work, don't we want to save money on fuel? Why are there so many people who have never even seen a product like this trying to say it doesnt work? It worked for me, I see other posters where it works for them. There are thousands of people on line showing the same thing, That it works
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#75 Consumer Comment

Company info

AUTHOR: togoodtobetrue - (United States of America)

http://www2.sos.state.oh.us/pls/bsqry/f?p=100:7:1392495765436530::NO:7:P7_CHARTER_NUM:1854479
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#76 Consumer Suggestion

Do your homework!

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

READ http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Hydroxy%20Boosters.pdf  READ

That's all for now.
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#77 Consumer Suggestion

OKOKOK! EPA/ CARB TESTING RESULTS!!!!

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

http://www.gogogreenworld.com/EPA-CARB.html    This company is the first to get a CARB number as far as I know. They use a pressurized HHO system.  EO # D-681
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#78 Consumer Suggestion

**update Renewable energy incentives**

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2009/01/15/usa-stimulus-energy-idUKN1553218220090115

Here is more  for you guys to check out!

http://energyshowandtell.wetpaint.com/page/MileageSeekersHHO%27s+presentation+at+Cleveland%27s+%22Ohio+Technical+College%22

www.hydrogen.energy.gov

www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/incentives_laws.htm

http://www.youtube.com/user/MSMTruther#p/u/33/ZJrxXYZhZPE
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#79 Consumer Comment

here you go kevin

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

Here is a video of the same companies HHO kit that is getting better gas mileage.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucKuyOAt3D0&NR=1      

And here go kevin all the info you can ask for.

Studies of Supplemental Hydrogen Effects on Vehicle

The technology of using hydrogen as a combustion enhancement in internal combustion engines has been researched and proven for many years. The  benefits are factual and well documented. Our own utilization of this technology. i.e. hydrogen injection system, has also been tested and proven both by institutions and in hundreds of practical applications in road vehicles.

Here is a synopsis of a sampling of the research that has been done:

1766
Hydrogen was first identified as a distinct element by British scientist Henry Cavendish after he separated hydrogen gas by reacting zinc metal with hydrochloric acid. In a demonstration to the Royal Society of London, Cavendish applied a spark to hydrogen gas yielding water. This discovery led to his later finding that water (H2O) is made of hydrogen and oxygen.

1783
Jacques Alexander Cesar Charles, I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable.

1788
Building on the discoveries of Cavendish, French chemist Antoine Lavoisier gave hydrogen its name, which was derived from the Greek words - hydro and genes, meaning water and born of.

1800
English scientists William Nicholson and Sir Anthony Carlisle discovered that applying electric current to water produced hydrogen and oxygen gases. This process was later termed electrolysis.

1839
The fuel cell effect, combining hydrogen and oxygen gases to produce water and an electric current, was discovered by Swiss chemist Christian Friedrich Schoenbein

1845
English scientist and Judge Sir William Grove demonstrated Schoenbeins discovery on a practical scale by creating a gas battery. For his achievement he earned the title Father of the Fuel Cell.

1920
German engineer Rudolf Erren converted the internal combustion engines of trucks, buses and submarines to use hydrogen or hydrogen mixtures. British scientist and Marxist writer J.B.S. Haldane introduced the concept of renewable hydrogen in his paper. Science and the Futuree, by proposing that there will be great power stations where during windy weather the surplus power will be used for the electrolytic decomposition of water into oxygen and hydrogen."

1937
After ten successful tarns-Atlantic flights from Germany to the United States, the Hindenburg, a dirigible inflated with hydrogen gas, erupted into flames while landing in Lakewood, New Jersey. See 1997. I believe that water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitutes it, used singly or together, will furnish an exhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable. Jules Verne, The Mysterious Island (1874)

1958
The United States formed the National Aeronautics and Space (NASA). NASAs space program currently uses the most liquid hydrogen worldwide, primarily for rocket propulsion and as a fuel for fuel cells.

1959
Francis T. Bacon of Cambridge University in England built the first practical hydrogen-air fuel cell. The 5-kilowatt (kW) system powered a welding machine. He named his fuel cell design the Bacon Cell. Later that year, Harry Karl Ihrig, an engineer for the Allis - Chalmers Manufacturing Company demonstrated the first fuel cell vehicle: a 20 horsepower tractor. Hydrogen fuel cells, based upon Bacons design, have been used to generate on-board electricity, heat and water for astronauts aboard the famous Apollo spacecraft and all subsequent space shuttle missions.

1970
Electro chemist John OM. Bockris coined the term hydrogen economy. He later published Energy: the Solar-Hydrogen Alternative, describing his envisioned hydrogen economy where cities in the United States could be supplied with solar energy

1972
A 1972 Gremlin, modified by The University of California at Los Angeles, entered the 1972 Urban Vehicle Design Competition and won first prize for the lowest tailpipe emissions. Students converted the Gremlins internal combustion engine to run on hydrogen supplied from an onboard tank.

1973
The OPEC oil embargo and the resulting supply shock suggested that the era of cheap petroleum had ended and that the world needed alternative fuels. The development of hydrogen fuel cells for conventional commercial applications began.

1974
John Houseman and D.J/Cerini of the Jet Propulsion Lab, California Institute of Technology produced a report for the Society of Automotive Engineers entitled "On-Board Hydrogen Generator for a Partial Hydrogen Injection Internal Combustion Engine". In 1974 F.W. Hoehn and M.W. Dowy of the Jet Propulsion Lab, prepared a report for the 9th Inter society Energy Conversion Engineering Conference, entitled "Feasibility Demonstration of a Road Vehicle Fueled with Hydrogen Enriched Gasoline."

1974
Professor T. Nejat Veziroglu of the University of Miami, FL, The Hydrogen Economy Miami Energy Conference (THEME), the first international conference held to discuss hydrogen energy.

1977
International Energy Agency (IEA) was established in response to global oil market disruptions. IEA activities included the research and development of hydrogen energy technologies. The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) was also created.

1978
National Science Foundation transferred the Federal Hydrogen R&D Program to the U.S. DOE

1988
The Soviet Union Tupolev Design Bureau successfully converted a 164-passenger TU-154 commercial jet to operate one of the jets three engines on liquid hydrogen. The maiden flight lasted 21 minutes.

1989
The National Hydrogen Association (NHA) formed in the United States with ten members. Today, the NHA has nearly 100 members, including representatives from the automobile and aerospace industries, federal, state and local governments, universities, researchers, utilities and energy providers. The International Organization for Standardizations Technical Committee for Hydrogen Technologies was also created.

1990
The world s first solar powered hydrogen production plant at Solar-Wasserstoff-Bayern, a research and testing facility in southern Germany, became operational. The U.S. Congress passed the Spark Matsunaga Hydrogen, Research, Development and Demonstration Act (PL 101-566), which prescribed the formulation of a 5-year management and implementation plan for hydrogen research and development in the United States. The Hydrogen Technical Advisory Panel (HTAP) was mandated by the Matsunaga Act to ensure consultation on and coordination of hydrogen research.

1991 
Georgetown University in Washington, D.C. begins development of three 30-foot Fuel Cell Test Bed Buses (TBB) as part of their Generation I Bus Program. In 2001, Georgetown finished their second Generation II bus, which uses hydrogen from ethanol to power a 100kW fuel cell engine. development of new vehicles technologies and alternative fuels, including hydrogen.

1994
Daimler Benz demonstrated the NECAR I (New Electric CAR), its first hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, at a press conference in Ulm, Germany.

1995
The Chicago Transit Authority unveiled the first of their three hydrogen fuel cell buses. The small pilot fleet began operation the following year

In the early eighties George Vosper P. Eng., ex-professor of Dynamics and Canadian inventor, designed and patented a device to transform internal combustion engines to run on hydrogen. He later affirms: "A small amount of hydrogen added to the air intake of a gasoline engine would enhance the flame velocity and thus permit the engine to operate with leaner air to gasoline mixture than otherwise possible. The result, far less pollution with more power and better mileage." In 1995, Wagner, Jamal and Wyszynski, at the Birmingham University of Engineering, Mechanical and Manufacturing, demonstrated the advantages of "Fractional addition of hydrogen to internal combustion engines by exhaust gas fuel reforming." The process yielded benefits in improved combustion stability and reduced nitrogen oxides and hydrocarbon emissions.

Roy MacAlister, PE of the American Hydrogen Association states "The use of mixtures of hydrogen in small quantities and conventional fuels offers significant reductions in exhaust emissions" and that "Using hydrogen as a combustion stimulant it is possible for other fuels to meet future requirements for lower exhaust emissions in California and an increasing number of additional states. Relatively small amounts of hydrogen can dramatically increase horsepower and reduce exhaust emissions."

At the HYPOTHESIS Conference, University of Cassino, Italy, June 26-29, 1995, a group of scientists from the University of Birmingham, UK, presented a study about hydrogen as a fraction of the fuel. In the abstract of that study it stated: "Hydrogen, when used as a fractional additive at extreme lean engine operation, yields benefits in improved combustion stability and reduced nitrogen oxides and hydrocarbon emissions."

In the Spring of 1997, at an international conference held by the University of Calgary, a team of scientists representing the Department of Energy Engineering, Zhejiang University, China, presented a mathematical model for the process of formation and restraint of toxic emissions in hydrogen-gasoline mixture fueled engines. Using the theory of chemical dynamics of combustion, the group elaborated an explanation of the mechanism of forming toxic emissions in spark ignition engines. The results of their experimental investigation conclude that because ofthe characteristics of hydrogen, the mixture can rapidly burn in hydrogen-gasoline mixture fueled engines, thus toxic emissions are restrained. These studies and other research on hydrogen as a fuel supplement generated big efforts in trying to develop practical systems to enhance internal combustion engine performance. A few of them materialized in patented devices that didn't't reach the level of performance, safety or feasibility that would allow them to reach marketing stages.



1997
Retired NASA engineer Addison Bain challenged the belief that hydrogen caused the Hindenburg accident. The hydrogen, Bain demonstrated, did not cause the catastrophic fire but rather it was the combination of static electricity and highly flammable material on the skin of the airship. For more information, view the Hydrogen Safety fact sheet.

1999
Europe first hydrogen fueling stations were opened in the German cities of Hamburg and Munich. The Royal Dutch/Shell Company committed to a hydrogen future by forming a hydrogen division. Also, a consortium of Icelandic institutions, headed by the financial group New Business Venture Fund, partnered with Royal Dutch/Shell Group, Daimler Chrysler (a merger of Daimler Benz and Chrysler) Norsk Hydro to form the Icelandic Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Company Ltd to further the Hydrogen economy in Iceland.

2001
Ballard Power Systems launched the world s first volume produced proton exchange membrane (PEM) fuel cell system designed for integration into a wide variety of industrial and consumer end-product applications

2002
Executives from Daimler Chrysler Corporation, Ford Motor Company and General Motors Corporation, along with Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham, announced a new cooperative automotive research (CAR) partnership between the U.S. Department of Energy and the U.S. Council for Automotive Research (USCAR). The program, Freedom CAR, focuses on developing enabling technologies, such as hydrogen fuel cells, for petroleum-free cars and light trucks.

2003
Starting in 2003, the first electrolytic hydrogen production, compression, and fueling station was inaugurated in Reykjavk, Iceland. The refueling station is designed to be open to public services. The hydrogen delivery station is to be tested within the project ECTOS, (Ecological City Transport System), a fuel cell bus demonstration running between 2003 and 2005. A socioeconomic and environmental research methodology was established and followed for three years.

2003
President George W. Bush announced in his 2003 State of the Union Address a $1.2 billion hydrogen fuel initiative to develop the technology for commercially viable hydrogen powered fuel cells.

2004
U.S. Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham announced over $350-million devoted to hydrogen research and vehicle demonstration projects, nearly one-third of President Bush's commitment. The funding encompasses over 30 lead and more than 100 partners selected through a competitive review process.

California Environmental Engineering (CEE) has tested this technology and found reduction on all exhaust emissions. They subsequently stated:

"CEE feels that the result of this test verifies that this technology is a viable source for reducing emissions and fuel consumption on large diesel engines."

The American Hydrogen Association Test Lab tested this technology and proved that: "Emissions test results indicate that a decrease of toxic emissions was realized." Again, zero emissions were observed on CO. Northern Alberta Institute of Technology. Vehicle subjected to dynamometer loading in controlled conditions showed drastic reduction of emissions and improved horsepower.

Corrections, Canada tested several systems and concluded, "The hydrogen system is a valuable tool in helping Corrections, Canada meet the overall Green Plan by: reducing vehicle emissions down to an acceptable level and meeting the stringent emissions standard set out by California and British Columbia; reducing the amount of fuel consumed by increased mileage."

Additionally, their analysis pointed out that this solution is the most cost effective. For their research they were granted the C.S.C. Environmental Award.

Hydrogen Combustion as a Stimulant

Hydrogen burns more rapidly than hydrocarbon fuels because it is smaller and enters combustion reactions at higher velocity, has lower activation energy, and incurs more molecular collisions than heavier molecules. These characteristics make it possible to use mixtures of hydrogen with conventional hydrocarbon fuels such as gasoline, diesel and propane to reduce emissions of unburned hydrocarbons. Transition from fossil fuels to renewable hydrogen by use of mixtures of hydrogen in small quantities with conventional fuels offers significant reductions in exhaust emissions. Using hydrogen as a combustion stimulant makes it possible for other fuels to meet future requirements for lower exhaust emissions in California and an increasing number of additional States. Mixing hydrogen with hydrocarbon fuels provides combustion stimulation by increasing the rate of molecular-cracking processes in which large hydrocarbons are broken into smaller fragments. Expediting production of smaller molecular fragments is beneficial in increasing the surface-to-volume ratio and consequent exposure to oxygen for completion of the combustion process. Relatively small amount of hydrogen can dramatically increase horsepower and reduce emissions of atmospheric pollutants.

5 minutes of research online and you can find this information.

A brief Overview of Tax Credits.

(Also see below for Grant information)

http://www.waterfuel123.com/resources/IRS_Chapter_12.pdf 

The IRS info on getting your tax rebate on Hydrogen supplemental fuel devices.

There are more tax credits available, See your tax accountant for how these apply to you.

IRS TAX CREDITS AND REBATES -

Uncle Sam has decided to subsidize the production and use of Clean-Fuel Vehicles and Alternative fuels. Here's how many people are getting their Hydrogen Fuel System for free and making money by getting a 50 cents per gallon tax credit for the hydrogen in the Alternative Fuel Mixture that a hydrogen fuel system produces and a credit or rebate of 18.3 cents per gallon for the petroleum fuel in the mixture purchased at the pump which has a Fed. Excise tax on it. Alternative Fuel Mixtures are exempt from Excise tax. A tax credit is generally more valuable than an equivalent tax deduction because a tax credit reduces tax dollar-for-dollar, while a deduction only removes a percentage of the tax that is owed. Consumers can itemize purchases on their federal income tax form, which will lower the total amount of tax they owe the government. If you do not owe tax, the excise tax will be rebated in cash by Uncle Sam.
                                                         **Disclaimer**
While I can make no assertions about how your personal tax situation may be affected. I present this information for your tax professional to consider during your tax preperations.

HYDROGEN FUEL SYSTEM FOR FREE - CLEAN-FUEL VEHICLE

PROPERTY MOTOR VEHICLE RETROFIT CONVERSION COST TAX CREDIT

Installing a hydrogen fuel system converts your vehicle to an IRS recognized "clean-fuel" vehicle.To get a tax credit for the cost (up to $2,000) for the installation of your Hydrogen Fuel System:

A)Use IRS Form 8910 - On line 16, deduct the cost of the system including installation cost;

B)Use IRS Form 1040 - On line 54, deduct up to $2,000 for the cost of the unit.

Note: For businesses, use Form 3800, Line R. Per IRS Bulletin 11-13-06, page 5, the deduction is $5,000 per truck or van with a gross vehicle weight of 10,000 to 26,000 lbs. and $50,000 per truck or van with a gross vehicle weight of over 26,000 lbs. and at least 20 seats.

MAKING MONEY USING A HYDROGEN FUEL SYSTEM

ALTERNATIVE FUEL MIXTURE PRODUCTION AND USE TAX CREDIT

When you install a retrofit hydrogen fuel system on your vehicle you convert your vehicle to burn a mixture of hydrogen and a petroleum fuel. This is an IRS recognized Qualified Alternative Fuel Motor Fuel Vehicle using an Alternative Fuel Mixture. To get a tax credit of 50 cents per gasoline gallon equivalent (GGE-See DOE calculations) of Hydrogen made and used in the Alternative Fuel Mixture and a credit or cash refund of 18.4 cents per gallon of taxed gasoline or 24.4 cents per gallon of taxed diesel fuel bought at the pump and used in your Alternative Fuel Mixture, use:

A)IRS Form 637 to register with the IRS;

B)IRS Form 8849 to claim a refund of excise tax of 18.4 cents per taxed gallon of gasoline or 24.4 cents per gallon of diesel fuel used

C)IRS Form 4136, Sec. 12 for individuals and companies and Form 8849 for tax exempt entities.

D)IRS Form 1040, lines 54 and 68 to claim the deductions of 50 cents per gallon of hydrogen and a credit or rebate of 18.4 cents per gallon of taxed gasoline or 24.4 cents per gallon of diesel fuel used. Municipalities get the 18.4 cents per gallon of gasoline or 24.4 cents per gallon of diesel fuel used in the mixture even though they do not pay this tax to begin with!

Uncle Sam says there will be Clean Fuel; Alternative Fuel Mixtures; Clean Air, and Clean Cities. Farm tractors, Bulldozers and Road Graders qualify for Alternative Fuel Mixture Tax Credits.There are many, many, many more cash and tax credit incentives than I can show you here. You maycheck for yourself. Here are a few places to get you started in the right direction:

hydrogen.energy.gov (This is the official DOE site for the U.S. govt. hydrogen program)

www.afdc.energgy.gov/afdc/progs/fed_summary.php/afdc/US/0

http:/governmentgrant.com/green-grants

U.S. DOE Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy information center: Phone 877-337-3463 (Fleet Q&A)

http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/index

- Alternative Fuels and Advanced Vehicles Data Center

See: DOE Clean Cities initiative; Clean Air Act; Alternative Motor Fuels Act; Economic Stimulus-Energy.

TAX CONSEQUENCES: Typical for an individual for the purchase of a Hydrogen Fuel System

(See also tax consequences for an over the road trucker, for heavy trucking, and for a municipality.)

For actual IRS forms see "Tax Incentives" at www.hydrogenfuelco.com
or www.irs.gov/forms)

 Vehicles which have been repowered by an aftermarket installer to use an Alternative Fuel Mixture of hydrogen and a petroleum fuel are Qualified Alternative Fuel Motor Vehicles (QAFMV) and are eligible for 4 separate credits. One includes the cost and installation of a hydrogen fuel system.

 Mixing hydrogen with gasoline or diesel fuel produces an "Alternative Fuel Mixture". "Alternative Fuel Mixtures" are tax exempt. There are two parts to our Alternative Fuel Mixture. One is hydrogen and the other is either gasoline or diesel fuel. For the portion of the alternative fuel mixture that is hydrogen, we take a tax credit of 50 cents per gallon (gasoline gallon equivalent or GGE) for every gallon of hydrogen we produce and use in the fuel mixture. For the portion of the alternative fuel mixture that is gasoline or diesel, we take a tax credit (or apply for an excise tax refund) of 18.4 cents per gallon of gasoline or diesel fuel we bought at the pump with excise tax added on and used to make our alternative fuel mixture. This refund of these excise taxes paid for this part of our Alternative Fuel Mixture may be applied for weekly and is suppose to be processed by the IRS within 20 days. You cannot Claim both credits for one part of the fuel mixture. One is for the hydrogen and one is for the petroleum.

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Solutions currently offers various sizes of automotive hydrogen-on-demand aftermarket retrofit systems which converts your vehicle to run on an Alternative Fuel Mixture of Hydrogen and a petroleum fuel. A trained local mechanic may install it with our instruction.

The following hypothetical situation is presented after research and consultation with other vendors in the hydrogen fuel industry, with the Department of Energy and with the IRS. One should consult his attorney and C.P.A. for advice on how such a transaction would affect his personal tax situation. See also IRS Forms 720, line 14 and other tax forms and information on IRS and HFC websites.

TYPICAL ASSUMPTIONS FOR AN INDIVIDUAL:

1.The buyer has had withheld, paid or owes at least $2,000 income taxes.

2.The buyer drives an average of 20,000 miles per year.

3.The buyer gets an average of 20 miles per gallon.

4.The buyer pays an average of $2.80 per gallon of fuel.

5.The buyer purchased and installed a 4 liter per minute hydrogen system costing $1,950 on Jan. 1st.

6.The buyer has registered with the IRS with Form 637 as an activity M producer and user of an Alternative Fuel Mixture of hydrogen and petroleum.

TYPICAL RESULTS FOR AN INDIVIDUAL:

1.)The buyer claims a clean-fuel vehicle conversion cost tax-credit of the $1,950 he paid for the system using IRS Form 8910 at line 16 and Form 1040 at line 53.

2.)The buyer claims an Alternative Fuel Mixture production and use tax credit for $125 which is 50 cents per Gasoline Gallon Equivalent (GGE) of hydrogen on forms 4136, Sec. 12, and 1040, line 70.

3.)The buyer claims an excise tax credit or refund of $184 (18.4 cents per gallon) for the Fed. Excise tax paid on the petroleum portion of the fuel mixture using IRS Form 8849, Schedule 3.

4.)The buyer gets a 25% to 50% mileage increase saving $700 to $1,400 at $2.80/gallon fuel prices.

NET CONSEQUENCES: $2,959 to $3,659 return on the $1,950 Hydrogen Fuel System the first year.

5.)If this individual receives no mpg increase, he gets $2,259 in tax credits and rebates for installing this $1,950 hydrogen unit. This is a $359 net profit with no mpg increase.

6.)Additionally, this buyer's vehicle oil and spark plugs will stay cleaner longer and his engine will run cooler with much lower harmful emissions. His engine will run better and will last longer.

There you go Kevin I guess all these studies were all following a scam, right? Put that in your physics pipe and smoke it, but dont inhale you might learn something.

Thank
you everyone that has called me. I hope this has been a help to you.

I hope to see some of your own results up here soon too.

Thanks
Jeremy
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#80 General Comment

The Arkansas Physicist (kevin)

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

First of all, I would like to ask a moderator to remove or re-crop the images that Jeremy seems to feel the need to post which overlap all of the text on this forum.  This is little more than spam and I don't understand how posting pictures of rather shoddy automotive work helps his case.  One to Jeremy's response:
 
Jeremy Wrote:
"Well as we can see Kevin doesn't even know how "these devices" violate conservation of energy laws and has yet to provide a detailed explanation as to his claim."
 
Response:
These devices, specifically the one from the mileage shop, claims to create hydrogen and oxygen gas from water, at the expense of energy obtained from burning gasoline, and reintroduce this mixture of hydrogen and oxygen back into the engine to be used as fuel.  The conservation of energy issue should be clear.  If every process along the way is 100% efficient, these devices could at best only hope to break even.  As the processes by which they function are far from
100% efficient these devices actually cause a net decrease in vehicle efficiency (though we are talking about very small amounts of energy relative to the average vehicle's power...thus the decrease in efficiency should be exceedingly small...i.e. these devices do a whole lot of nothing)  This is exactly what is found when these devices are put through an EPA sanctioned test for efficiency.  Dateline actually did a marvelous investigation of one such company selling these devices.  Here is a link:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv9vMzXJbho
 
Jeremy Wrote:
"Not only that but here is a customer telling you they also have installed one on there vehicle and received an increase in gas mileage."
 
It has taken me almost 30 years to realize that people just say things.  And some people lie...about anything... particularly if there is money involved.  Every moment of my training as a professional scientist has also lead me to a clear understanding that anecdotal evidence is as unreliable as it is ever present.
 
Jeremy Wrote:
"Kevin you have yet to say anything intelligent you have only been spouting propaganda you heard from someone else."
 I will leave the veracity of my responses to be judged by those who happen to read them.  After all, I am here to convince them to seek actual professional advice before falling for a scam.  I'm not here to convince you as you are a con
artist.  I am here to convince everyone else, not to take my word for it (as they don't know that I am a physicist...here I am just some guy on the internet who CLAIMS to be a ph.d. student in physics as a small arkansas university) but rather to call a local physics or engineering department, and sit down and ask someone's opinion of these devices.  You will find they pretty much unanimously agree with my assertion that these devices are a fraud.
 
Jeremy Wrote:

"And your only support  to your claim is that Autozone doesn't have these on there shelves (But they do have the Tornado) or to call the physics department to get your proof. "
 
I will look up this tornado.  Granted this is a pretty weak argument on my part.  The point that I was trying to make is that I am SHOCKED that auto-zone does not carry such devices even though they are a fraud.  There is money to be made.
 The only reason I could conceive of that they would not carry these devices is that they fear the inevitable lawsuits.  However this does not stop Walgreens from carrying homeopathic "medications" in their shelves right next to real medications.  This is also a blatantly fraudulent industry and yet...there it is on the shelves of a major pharmaceutical chain.  None the less I will have a look at this "Tornado" device.
 
Jeremy Wrote:
"Lets just look at that for a minute Autozone as far as I can tell isn't the pinnacle of automotive products."

  Response:
I can't discern a point here....Are you saying they would not sell a product that could increase fuel efficiency by over 100%?  Besides, I have seen pictures of YOUR work as you have posted it all over this forum and frankly, autozone parts certainly
look less....rigged.
 
Jeremy Wrote:
"Consulting your local physics department would be good if they have done experiments on Hydroxy gas then they would have an educated opinion at least. But like I have said in earlier rebuttals you can do 5 minutes of searching to find students and educators doing experiments in this field and getting good results. "
 
Response:
I have tested the concept of conservation of energy countless times in countless experiments.  It always seems to hold true to as great a precision as one cares to measure.  These devices purport to violate one of the most sacred axioms
of physics.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  This is where the EPA sanctioned test results come in....funny...you have yet to provide any...from any such device obtained by anyone.  Why is that Jeremy?

Jeremy Wrote:
"Enough with this Kevin guy he is obviously non-constructive."

  Response:
Cast away the opinion of the physicist.  That seems like a good idea.  But please, do get ample advice from actual authorities on this matter before being conned out of your cash.  If such devices worked OF COURSE they would be on these new hybrid vehicles and frankly every vehicle that rolls of the lot.  Companies would be adopting every possible rendition of these devices in an attempt to maintain competitive marketability.  But they are not...are they.  Keep this in mind, the guy who works on your transmission is probably a smart guy, but he is not a scientist nor an engineer.  The
ENGINEERS working for these automotive companies know these devices are crap...I would respect their expert opinions if I were you.

Jeremy Wrote
"P.S. Not only does HHO increase MPG but it drastically reduces emissions as well. Check out the book "Fuel from Water". In there you can see and read about auto manufacturers who have had these devices on their vehicles. As well as all the
physics you can stand [KEVIN]. It is a good question "Why haven't these devices been implemented already?". Only way we can get that answer is from the manufacturers themselves. Just go ahead and do that and see how far you get! "
 
Yet you can not produce a single EPA certified test result showing an increase in MPG rating with one of these devices turned on.  Why is the Jeremy?

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#81 Consumer Suggestion

here you go sorry they blocked this info.

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

... jimcoinc  ...   net    check them out they got HHO systems on their Trucks.  and here is why you havent seen this technology already. http:   //www.ripoffreport.com/federal-government/senator-arlen-specte/senator-arlen-specter-a-genera-x424a   .htm
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#82 REBUTTAL Individual responds

HMMM!

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

Well as we can see Kevin doesn't even know how "these devices" violate conservation of energy laws and has yet to provide a detailed explanation as to his claim. Not only that but here is a customer telling you they also have installed one on there vehicle and received an increase in gas mileage. Kevin you have yet to say anything intelligent you have only been spouting propaganda you heard from someone else. And your only support  to your claim is that Autozone doesn't have these on there shelves (But they do have the Tornado) or to call the physics department to get your proof.

Lets just look at that for a minute Autozone as far as I can tell isn't the pinnacle of automotive products. Consulting your local physics department would be good if they have done experiments on Hydroxy gas then they would have an educated opinion at least. But like I have said in earlier rebuttals you can do 5 minutes of searching to find students and educators doing experiments in this field and getting good results.

Enough with this Kevin guy he is obviously non-constructive.
 
Jeremy

P.S. Not only does HHO increase MPG but it drastically reduces emissions as well. Check out the book "Fuel from Water". In there you can see and read about auto manufacturers who have had these devices on their vehicles. As well as all the physics you can stand [KEVIN]. It is a good question "Why haven't these devices been implemented already?". Only way we can get that answer is from the manufacturers themselves. Just go ahead and do that and see how far you get!
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#83 Consumer Comment

MileageShop.com products

AUTHOR: john kelly - (United States of America)

about 3 months ago, i purchased a hydrogen kit from a gentleman in las vegas. i had it installed in my 2003 pontiac montana mini van & my gas mileage went from 19 miles per gallon to about 26 miles per gallon. i have had no problems with unit & just today i had my vehicle smogged & it passed with flying colors.

since purchasing my 1st unit,  i have ordered a second unit directly from the company & it came in perfect condition in about 5 business days. every time i call the company, i get through to the person i wish to speak with & have all of my questions & concerns answered. this company gets my endorsement for product & service after the sale.

john kelly
imperial beach, ca
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#84 General Comment

From the Arkansas Physicist

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

What jeremy is trying to convey here is that he just got his as* handed to him by a physicist, he is well aware that he is a con artist, and he is sticking to his story hoping that someone is daft enough to buy his tired lines as well as his fraudulent product.  I agree with him on one thing...don't take MY word at face value...email a faculty member of the physics department at your local university and ask them if these devices do not constitute a blatant violation of the most fundamental physical principal--the conservation of energy.  Take note of the fact these devices are not on the shelf at any autozone...or standard on any model of automobile.  Again, please don't be duped by this con.  Jeremy, shame on you.
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#85 Consumer Suggestion

A constructive outlook.

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

WOW 1. So far kevin has not shown any evidence that i am a fraud. 2. He continues to try to bait me into a childish name calling contests. I have better things to do than to argue with children. 3. Any one wishing to contact a trucking company whose vehicles are getting better gas mileage and have also been EPA certified SMOG exempt using HHO Gas generator system, which i was a part of installing, go ahead and check it out for yourself.   (((Redacted)))  They'll be happy to tell you about their results as first hand customers. 4. This is evidence that this is real and works well in fact but most of you will just sit back and do nothing. It takes leaders to make changes not sheeple. 5. I will not be responding to this kevin fellow anymore it appears he is not being constructive and a waste of my time I have given plenty of information for people to take a look at so they can draw their own conclusions. And he has failed to show any evidence that that HHO is a "con". Mere declarations of a broad nature prove nothing.
Thanks Jeremy


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#86 General Comment

Reply to Jeremys original reply

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)



Jeremy wrote

“hydrogen.energy.gov (This is the official DOE
site for the U.S. govt. hydrogen program)”

 

Yes. 
This is the official sight, maintained by the department of energy,
regarding potential hydrogen technologies that may help to meet, at least in part,
or future energy needs.  You will
note that there are no devices even remotely similar to the product this
rippoff report is responding to presented on this sight.  The issue with hydrogen, however, is
that it is more of an energy storage medium than an actual energy source.  The one exception is when the hydrogen
comes from a higher energy source such as natural gas—though this certainly
does not help us move away from fossil fuels.  Most hydrogen production in the country today is obtained
from natural gas.  As it turns out,
this process is far cheaper and immensely less energy intensive than cracking
it from water.

 

Jeremy wrote

“I accept what you are saying under the condition
that you can not get that information with a little research online. I also
accept that I am "transparent, pathetic and attempting to profit from this
con" under the condition you can provide a link or a pdf of any evidence
which supports your claim.”

 

Seriously? 
You honestly accept the fact that you are profiting from a con?  I mean…okay.  Usually it is much more difficult to get someone to admit to
this…thanks….for being honest about your dishonesty.

 

Jeremy wrote

“You are right I have not provided any EPA
sanctioned test because they cost in the neighborhood of $250,000.00 to
conduct. And since I don't have "millions" I cannot provide such
tests. But as i stated previously you can find that information for yourself.”

 

Two hundred grand would not be hard to come by if
your device does what it claims. 
Certainly you could patent the idea and a major auto manufacturer would
he hellafast to pick it up and make it standard on their new vehicles thus
quickly taking hold of the economy market.  If you could show me a vehicle with substantially improved
overall fuel efficiency due to your system, I can get you $250,000.  However this really is a moot
point.   Efficiency test do
not run anywhere NEAR this amount of money!  Many garages are set up to run these test (for emissions
testing typically) and the cost is relatively cheap—usually about 60
bucks.  You would need to go to an
EPA sanctioned testing facility so expect to pay more along the line of 150
bucks.  You will need a handful
(less than ten) of these test from independent facilities to obtain your EPA
certification.  This will run you a
little in excess of a kilobuck—about two orders of magnitude less than your
stated cost above and well within reach.

 

Jeremy wrote:

“And the one of the many news reports shows that
"these devices" are not "nonsense"”

 

Um…you are relying on NEWS REPORTS as evidence
that these devices function as claimed? 
Seriously?

 

Jeremy wrote:

“I also agree that many of these claims do
violate conservation of energy laws. So now we have to rewrite them!”

 

Translation—so we have to make something else
up!  From a man who blatantly
admitted to perpetrating a fraud I am not surprised…but yet…somehow…I am.

 
Jeremy wrote:
“Also, are you sure that modern engine combustion
efficiencies are pretty darn near 100%?”

 

Already addressed this.  Absolutely sure. 
You apparently are not…this is…rather clear evidence that you are not an
expert in this area…in fact you are horrifically ignorant.

 
Jeremy wrote:
“I accept that this is a "con" and that
I am an "idiot" under the condition that you have any proof what so
ever that the claims I have made are misleading and incorrect.”

 

You have claimed to have witnessed a device which
produces hydrogen from energy produced by a vehicle, reintroduces this hydrogen
into the same engine, and in so doing increases fuel efficiency.  This claim is in direct contradiction
to the very basic universal physical law of conservation of energy.  You cannot get more energy out of that
hydrogen bond than you originally expended to break the bonds in the first
place.  These devices have NEVER
been shown, in any EPA sanctioned test, to increase fuel efficiency…ever…not
once.  You are the one making an
absurd positive claim.  The burden
of proof rest squarely on your shoulders. 
You have failed to provide any evidence for YOUR claim…I am not making a
claim.  I am simply rejecting yours
and calling your hand on a blatant fraud.

 
Jeremy wrote:
“Yes I am offering my cell phone number out of
the goodness of my heart. I haven't charged anyone for my advice nor have I
received any compensation for what I have stated. Jeremy (((ROR
redacted))) call me anytime!”

 

You are perpetrating a fraud.  And it seems clear you are aware of
it.  If not you simply lack any
critical thinking skills and are trying to convince people  to dump money into a fraudulent
technology.  I think it is a little
of both, frankly.

 


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#87 General Comment

Wow... projection..... Yea well my mom can beat up your mom!!!

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

Seriously...I don't know why I bother to respond.  I am not about to get dragged into a pecker measuring contest with you over alma mater.  I think it is evident that a physicist graduating from a university such as University of Arkansas is FAR more qualified to discuss claims of blatant violations to energy conservation than one who graduated from Ohio Technical College.  Not to say there is anything WRONG with this institution, though I doubt they have a physics program.  If, however, it is true that they are offering a course over this product/technology and do not explain the rather evident reasons why it is a scam, they are the automotive equivalent to liberty university who reportedly has fossils of dinosaurs on display in their biology department label to be on the order of 4 thousand years of age.

Again, this is a SCAM.  The means by which these devices purport to work constitute blatant violations of the most fundamental physical laws.  If anyone would like more detail regarding why this is a scam, particularly if you are thinking of giving these people money, I would highly suggest you email myself or a physicist/engineer at your local university.  Please don't be duped by this rather evident fraud.  Go to this companies webpage and take a gander at the image of their building for god's sake.  That is the most pathetic photoshop work I have ever seen!  Reverse lookup their phone number...notice the building is not present at that location.  Take note of the fact that no auto manufacturer has bothered to include these on their new vehicles despite the fact that this "technology" has been around for a very long time.  This is a scam...it is homeopathy for your automobile.  Please do not be taken in.  I cannot place my contact info on here as it will likely be removed.  Hell lookup ANY physics faculty or graduate student at my University and send them a link to this page and ask them their opinion...you will get the same advice.  It is not my OPINION that these devices do not work...it is just solid fact.  This is a scam.  Please don't be duped.
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#88 Consumer Suggestion

Kevin you need to go to a better collegef

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

 Maybe! OHIO TECHNICAL COLLEGE where they teach and install HOD/HHO systems. go to Youtube type in OTC day1 part 1 there you can take a introductory course in HHO. The world is not flat people but, there were some who held on to the belief that it was with ridicule and sometimes even violence. Much like this Kevin is displaying here. P.S. It is recognized that in any new field, without proper standards and some way for the public to know if a product is professionally manufactured, that abuses can occur. It is one of the purposes of this website to help bring professional standards to the industry, and to help it expand in an ethical manner. I encourage you to visit the www.ihhoi.org, and to join us as a member.
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#89 General Comment

There is very little to respond to here.

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

I am currently pursuing a Ph.d. in physics at the University of Arkansas.  I think I am quite a bit more educated regarding this tripe than you give me credit for.  This is a scam.  The fact that you can create hydrogen gas from water through electrolytic breakdown does not imply that this device is not in violation of several basic physical principals.  These devices do not work.  All you need to know to come to this conclusion is that they can not be found on the shelf at autozone.  They are not standard on any new vehicle...despite the fact that it would give an overwhelming advantage to the company who implemented them first.  It is a con.  Any engineer or physicist will tell you as much.  Please don't be duped by this.

Kevin
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#90 REBUTTAL Individual responds

Conspiracy Theory?

AUTHOR: woodtelg - (United States of America)

Well I have read "most" of the rebuttals above and have not seen some obvious mentions.   Now I am not big on Conspiracy Theory's nor I am a Physicist, but I have been following the HHO craze for about 3 years and am currently debating on buying and trying one for myself.  Still sorting thru some the bs companies out there.

But after reading all the arguments above, I felt compelled to say something. First off, anyone who thinks that hydrogen will and does not work needs to tell NASA to quite hurdling their space shuttles into the atmosphere will this gas!  I am not saying that the technology for car conversion is here yet, but what I do know is that IT DOES WORK as fuel source.

Secondly, whoever thinks that the EPA and any government loves this idea of using hydrogen to power our future, does not live in the real world.  FACT: In the US alone, we spend over 700 BILLION PER YEAR, IN WHICH OUR GOVERNMENT MAKES A HUGE PROFIT OFF OF!! Car companies are just as bad, vehicle MPG gains have crawled, despite all the new technology(no doubt the US government had a hand in that). So quite acting like any government or any large car company is going to pave the way for this technology. Hydrogen is free, free does not make anybody/company/government a profit, unless you sell the systems that produce hydrogen, huh, kinda like what you see on the internet with hydro generators.  Can anyone explain why the new commercials about car and oil companies investing in Hydrogen technologies? WOW, took them long enough. Maybe cuz anyone with a moderate knowledge can produce hydrogen in their garage.  Make no mistake about it, our energy needs will change from oil, when and how is still undetermined.

So like MRHYDROGUY above, I want to know for myself, so I am buying a kit and will report back shortly on my findings.
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#91 General Comment

tell the hydrogen bomb that it cant make energy

AUTHOR: nicolle - (United States of America)

It just amazes me that one individual could be soooooo sure that its a scam in every brand sold online without ever even testing the product out. and that his disbelievers can refute hard core science and state it as fact.
 
If you know nothing about chemistry than its a real plausible argument to make. if you have even a low low low key high school chemistry education then you should be well aware that water is exactly hydrogen and oxygen....if you separate the two (via electrical current), then you have pure hydrogen. this is possible. if truly impossible as previously claimed, then i suppose that you could also argue that nuclear fusion  is not real and it really does not create energy capable of creating an explosion. and that Hydroelectricity, like 2000 yrs old, is not real and that todays power generators are really just a facade right?
  
How dare individuals report that it is "physic"ally impossible to create energy with only water  unless he has tried and tested every product he rebuts...this statement defies hundreds of years of research, in chemistry (hard science), not physics (theory), and frankly bothers me that some one would dare claim so certainly that this technology is "Impossible", much less dozens of folks claim its a scam without testing their " knowledge" of such products for accuracy.

My husband and i made a  hydrogen cell in my kitchen with very rudimentary tools in a plastic bowl in our kitchen at the counter... fine tuning the tools and materials we could isolate the hydrogen before our eyes, and yes ignite the stored hydrogen (aka energy) ... thats all with out a factory made HHO cell of any brand, totally hand made.

just because i can not wrap my head around an idea, does not make it false, untrue, bogus, a ripoff, scam, impossible, or even implausible. it means that i must research it and learn about it, and test it and retest it before i can make a definite declaration and state as a matter of fact that it is a scam or not true. otherwise i sit and keep my uneducated mouth shut until i am positive it is not possible. all these guys want to say prove it- prove it- prove it....yet haven't looked up HHO cell on YouTube or they'd see guy after guy after guy etc... after guy "proving" it by making hydrogen energy from water in their garage...

please do yourselves a favor and  educate yourself:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydropower
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fusion
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#92 REBUTTAL Individual responds

Brother?

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

How is it that the report we are talking about is brought about by an individual who lacks the free will to find out for himself the truth? And, when presented with another individual who has first hand knowledge of the subject, the best they can do is reduce to ridicule? Maybe they are trying to compensate for something? But, so as to not sink to that level, here is some more info people can learn for themselves. Because we must be the change we wish to see in the world. ;-) Jeremy  P.S. I anxiously await your ridicul(ous) Response Kevin?
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#93 General Comment

Welcome back Jeremy!

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

I will have time to write a proper rebuttal in a week or two.  I must say I am impressed that you had the nerve to respond to my original post--I am sure you were operating under the assumption I would not respond.  At any rate, for the time being I will make only this short reply as I have an annual review due this monday and a deadline to meet on wed.

You stated above "Also, are you sure that modern engine combustion efficiencies are pretty darn near 100%?"

Absolutely.  If you had ANY IDEA AT ALL what you were talking about, as someone who purports to understand these devices and their operation should, you would know this to be an accurate statement.  Your being unaware of the typical combustion efficiencies of a modern automobile is a damn good indication that one should not place much weight on your opinion regarding any aspect of automotive engineering.

You are a con artist Jeremy.  You are aware of your con.  You will receive a proper rebuttal latter, however the above ridiculous comment of yours should serve as its own rebuttal.

Kevin
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#94 Consumer Comment

LMFAO!

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

Its so funny that my phone number would get censored on here. I can't imagine why! HMMM! Somebody doesn't want this info out there? Well guess what! It's to late. The change in consciousness is here! You can't stop the truth. Jeremy (((ROR redacted)))

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#95 Consumer Suggestion

Your third party testing is here!

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

http://www.ihhoi.org/ to test the cell system you are using. To test your vehicle it is really simple, go to any smog shop and ask them to just check out your emissions with your HHO system connected and activated.
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#96 REBUTTAL Individual responds

Response to your rebuttal

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

Kevin    As to your first point: "I have yet to see ANY positive results and I have looked.  The people selling the tripe invariably have little to no understanding of exactly how these devices are supposed to work and when you ask them for any EPA test results they, for whatever reason, never seem able to provide."
 
I accept what you are saying under the condition that the this technology isn't already well understood and documented i.e. "Water for Fuel". Although, I would agree that very few people have enough knowledge about the application of this technology to comment to any questions with any validity.

If you wish to learn about what the EPA and the government has to say about it you should go right to the horses mouth...You maycheck for yourself. Here are a few places to get you started in the right direction: hydrogen.energy.gov (This is the official DOE site for the U.S. govt. hydrogen program)www.afdc.energgy.gov/afdc/progs/fed_summary.php/afdc/US/0http:/governmentgrant.com/green-grantsU.S. DOE Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy information center: Phone 877-337-3463 (Fleet Q&A)http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/index - Alternative Fuels and Advanced Vehicles Data CenterSee: DOE Clean Cities initiative; Clean Air Act; Alternative Motor Fuels Act; Economic Stimulus-Energy.

As to your second point: "I am just going to be frank here Jeremy.  You are a liar.  Provide a link or pdf of any EPA test result which supports your claim here and I will apologize profusely.  However we both know this won't be necessary as you have never actually installed one of these systems and obtained any increase in fuel efficiency.  You should be ashamed of yourself.  And dropping your phone number is a transparent and pathetic attempt to profit from this con.

I accept what you are saying under the condition that you can not get that information with a little research online. I also accept that I am "transparent, pathetic and attempting to profit from this con" under the condition you can provide a link or a pdf of any evidence which supports your claim.

Since you like links so much here are a few for you to ponder:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTkuWzUjspc&feature=player_embedded
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rebuttal
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ridicule

As to your third point: "You had such great results and failed to have these results verified via an independent, EPA sanctioned test?  Such a result would certainly have made you millions!  Except you know you are making these numbers up, don't you."

You are right I have not provided any EPA sanctioned test because they cost in the neighborhood of $250,000.00 to conduct. And since I don't have "millions" I cannot provide such tests. But as i stated previously you can find that information for yourself.

As to your fourth point: "Why don't you provide EPA sanctioned test results and shut them up?  These devices, from a physics standpoint, are utter nonsense.  Most of the claims invoke blatant violations of conservation of energy and the rest put forward the ignorant misconception that adding hydrogen to the fuel mix can increase your mileage via increasing the combustion efficiency of your engine--the problem of course being that modern engines' combustion efficiencies are pretty darn near 100%."

Well I have already addressed the EPA tests. And the one of the many news reports shows that "these devices" are not "nonsense". I also agree that many of these claims do violate conservation of energy laws. So now we have to rewrite them! I accept that mixing hydrogen with your fuel doesn't make a more efficiently burning fuel under the condition that it hasn't already been well known and documented for the past 30 or more. Also, are you sure that modern engine combustion efficiencies are pretty darn near 100%?

As to your fifth point: "This, however, is a con, and Jeremy is certainly aware of it...that or he is an idiot.  But I think the first option is more likely.  Thus he drops his number on here..you know, to offer his assistance...out of the goodness in his heart."

I accept that this is a "con" and that I am an "idiot" under the condition that you have any proof what so ever that the claims I have made are misleading and incorrect. Yes I am offering my cell phone number out of the goodness of my heart. I haven't charged anyone for my advice nor have I received any compensation for what I have stated. Jeremy (((ROR redacted))) call me anytime!

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#97 Consumer Suggestion

Further help to avoid being ripped off!

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

Hello, Jeremy here again, Just wanted to update my report to help others who, as a result of my report, have called me. This is a website if you are serious about this technology, that you should checkout and utilize there service.....http://www.ihhoi.org/.... Also if you wish to check out what is the latest and greatest tech out there for HHO.... http://hhoinformation.com/#axzz1E9A89HQ2.... Also there are GOVERNMENT incentives that encourage this technology as well as pay you to purchase and run these devices....http://www.waterfuel123.com/resources/IRS_Chapter_12.pdf....http://hydrogenfuelco.com/tax.html....Just as a side note as well. To people who say to provide an EPA report to prove this technology it cost's around $250,000.00 to get that done and that is non refundable and they take your device to there own testing labs and do what ever they want to your device and then they provide there certification or deny it. That's how it works. Essentially when you ask these manufacturers to provide a EPA report you are asking to provide a third party certification of the product. Which is completely reasonable to ask. Always remember, "If you are to accuse someone of something as being false you better have proof before hand. Otherwise you are giving false testament and become the one liable."
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#98 Consumer Comment

if it doesn't throttle up its not working

AUTHOR: Alex - (United States of America)

when you add 4 to 6 litres oh hho to a 4.2 litre motor the first thing you will notice when the switch is turned on yor engine idle will jump from 750 rpm to about 2000 and will bebin surging as the motor pulls the hho into a small vacum from the bubbler tank. flippping a switch with no difference. so if your hho is active and producing it would be like having a stuck throttle.

it takes 6 litres at 4 psi to gain a fuel reduction you could see

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#99 Consumer Comment

No violation of anything..

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

You can post anything you want here. If you post something willingly that you know is false, of course that is a form of slander.

However, if you are posting info based on your research which you disclosed, there is no violation of anything on your part.

Any website can post a picture of anything to imply they are a legit business and have a warehouse. Websites are nothing more then a "virtual" illusion. Facts however, stand on their own. And the more facts that are exposed, the better it may prevent others from being ripped off.

And when that happens, this site has done it's job. There is not anything preventing a business from rebutting, replying, or stating it's side. But words are cheap. Physical evidence and actions speak volumes. Sometimes the lack of response speaks volumes as well.
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#100 Consumer Comment

Where is that big warehouse?

AUTHOR: Phil - (United States of America)

This is my first time to post on this forum, and I am NOT a physicist, nor am I in any way involved with the company that is the subject of this thread. I AM, however, very interested in things mechanical, and have made a fairly decent living as an automobile technician for several years in the past (until I had to change occupations due to injuries from a serious auto accident). The whole concept of the HHO systems has intrigued me and I came to this forum in the process of investigating the feasibility of using such a system in my own vehicles.

I do not intend to address the physics of operation, and I DO understand that most "mileage improvement" devices are strictly gimmicks. Some, I believe, will actually "improve" the mileage a person may get from his or her vehicle, but the "improvement" comes from a change in driving habits or something that will increase the efficiency of an "out of tune" engine. I, myself try to keep my engine in a good state of tune (much easier now than it used to be in the "points and condenser" days), keep my tires properly inflated, and drive in a manner that gets the most miles per gallon. Therefore, the few devices that I have actually tried could do nothing to improve on that.

Enough of my background. As I said, I began investigating the possibility of HHO and ran across The Mileage Shop. Their website shows quite an impressive warehouse type building, and I am familiar with the Prescott area in Arizona, so I was curious. I traced the phone number to see if I could locate this "business". I will not post personal names or addresses, but anyone with a reverse telephone directory can find the information the same way I did, and you will find that the directory listing appears to be a personal name, as opposed to a business listing, and it corresponds with a space in a mobile home park. I hope that this does not violate the TOS of this website, and I don't believe it does, but it just seemed to me that people would be interested in this information.
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#101 Consumer Comment

Speaking of "youranidiot"..No amount of reason, logic, proof, science or common sense seems to matter...

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

If it was not true that these systems are a rip off..surely someone..ANYONE who is qualified, can leave some documentation to prove the claims? If someone can prove the claims are true..and it is not a rip off..that is fine..that is as WELL what this site is for. That is why no posts are ever edited or removed by the site..so rebuttals can be posted.

I never stated anyone does not have a right to rebut a report or reply...but if some can documented evidence of a SCAM...and those rebutting it can document no evidence of anything but unsubstantiated gum flapping..then the site has served it's purpose well.

There are NO moderators on this site..only open debate. Regardless of topic.

According to my research...and regardless of semantics...I stated that HHO has been around for 92 years. You state it is B.S...okay...then click the following link to the US Patent issued on April 9, 1918 for a Hydro-Oxygen Generator for use on internal combustion engines. And whether it is 92 years..or 50 years..it still proves MY point..that this is nothing new...nothing has been proven to work as claimed, and many who have sold this idea to investors...have been sued or JAILED for FRAUD. Am I lying??

View Frazer's US Patent #1,262,034 here.

As far as Pacheco...did you see me dispute him? He has a Patent for a way to separate hydrogen from seawater, and can run engines from it. Did I ever dispute the fact that engines can run on hydrogen? Have you read all my posts? I left plenty of examples of vehicles that run on hydrogen. This does not violate any laws of physics at all. What does...is these claims of 20,30,40,50% and more increases in fuel economy from adding an HHO system to a conventional gasoline or diesel engine. Big difference.

I am not saying the idea doesn't work because the mainstream or the EPA have not published results. I am saying it does not work because it is impossible.  I am asking to those who claim it does work..to simply post any test results from the EPA...or request a sanctioned test and post the results?

And..after the bashing of this site..here comes the old conspiracy theories. I do NOT care what would happen to retail, the economy, stocks, bonds, rice, wheat, or any of that. All I want to see..is proof this works. Since I say with physics as evidence, and testing done by PM, Dateline NBC, EPA facilities, and the list of people who report they were ripped off, that it is concluded a FAIL.

NOW comes the fun part..you are entering MY territory..car stereo. I will quote you..and then PROVE you WRONG..again..

"I also like the part about needing to produce 5000watts of power to match airflow intake, first of all, find me a teenage bass head who hasnt already added 3000-6000 watts to a stock system with his annoying subwoofers and dvd tvs and whatever else they like these days. "


First of all...you can not really say or determine ANYTHING by 3000watt-6000watt stereo system in a car. What you do..is LOOK at the size of the fuse or fuses that are on the amplifier. What those tell you..is that the amplifier CAN NOT draw more current then those fuses can handle..or the fuses will blow. Now I know you are not too swift on ohms law..but I will try.

To determine the POWER..you multiply the amperage times the voltage. Now to keep things simple..we will use simple numbers, and not compensate for efficiency losses. So some douche just came from the flea market with his Humpwood amplifier,,it says 1000 watts on the casing. But there is a 30 amp fuse on the amp. P=IxE. P=30amps x 12 volts. P=360 watts. This is the MOST this amplifier can draw before blowing the fuse. If you minus for efficiency..this amplifier is probably closer to 300 watts PEAK. Realisitaclly maybe...MAYBE 150 watts RMS..or "continuous" rating. Now..is this amp going to be used at full power every time this idiot drives around? Probably not. Factor that plus efficiency losses..and you are more realistically at 50-75 watts. Yes, most cars can handle that.

Now for a more serious audio enthusiast who has money..might actually use a real 3000 watt RMS system. Wells lets see how much current this will draw, and if a stock alternator could survive it very long. Lets determine current using ohms law.

I= p/e  I =  3000w/12v = 250 amps. So...even if this vehicle had a heavy duty alternator from the factory..lets say rated at 120 amps...now..not only does this alternator have to run everything electrical in this vehicle..and keep the battery charged..but it has to be able to supply an ADDITIONAL 250 amps on demand on top of that? How long do you think it would last if this clown cranks it all day? I would imagine quite a problem with the headlights dimming at night. Remember simple physics..nothing is free. If the alternator can not meet the demands..it fails. Now do you think perhaps the engine..which has to spin this alternator with all this drag is going to use some gas to do so? Well it better..or we have more energy out then in..I would love to see this for myself. These systems REQUIRE high output alternators...which are expensive..and CERTAINLY if the operator is cranking it all the time..gas usage will increase..it HAS to..NO way around the FACTS and PHYSICS. Again.


Also, you said to MATCH airflow consumption, the goal of hydrogen gas being added is not to replace the air going into the motor, obviously the airflow is needed still to allow combustion and the more air the less fuel you need, all hydrogen does when introduced to the system in help ignite smaller amounts of fuel but still give off desired energy which then relates to your vehicles computer saying that it is getting the results it desires with less fuel therefore it saves gas consumptions


We have covered this. It is documented here that COMBUSTION efficiency is close to 100%. Now unless this system can increase the compression ration..it is doing NOTHING..expect perhaps leaning out the mixture which can damage the rings and valves.


Now go back to your reality.

But if you get a chance..can you kindly post any documentation from a reliable source that does not just sell these devices to prove or conclude in any way shape or form it works? As I stated, if you can, I will buy these systems to install and sell. So far all I have is reports of fraud and bad science to work with. And your logic based on nonsense..this is not really working too well in your favor.





 



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#102 Consumer Comment

Here it is boys and girls!

AUTHOR: W. - (USA)

I think what nobody has mentioned here is that this little tank cannot produce enough hydrogen to have any effect whatsoever. The amount of air that an engine ingests at idle, let alone at WOT, or any amount in between is staggering to someone that is unfamiliar with it. The Mileageshop.com site lists that it can produce 2-3 liters per minute of a Hydrogen-Oxygen mix, but lets say for the sake of argument that it were to produce 2-3 liters of pure hydrogen per minute (which would of course deplete the cup of water much quicker than 1000 miles). Hydrogen has a density of ~ 0.09 grams/liter, whereas gasoline has ~0.75 grams/liter which means that it would take more than 8 times the amount of hyrdrogen to equal the amount of gasoline. Now, gasoline packs ~35 megajoules/liter of energy, whereas hydrogen packs a whallop at 120 megajoules/liter, but remember it takes nearly 8 times the VOLUME of hydrogen gas to equal the volume of gasoline to equal the raw energy content. Now, hydrogen is much more powerful (~2.5 times as much), so it takes less of it to achieve an optimized burn, so the stoichiometric ratio is only 34:1, so 34 parts air to 1 part hydrogen. Now, let's assume we are using an average engine, a Ford 5.0L (302 ci) w/ a VE (volumetric efficiency) of 80% (0.8), so using the formula to calcuate raw air intake of CFM = (CID x RPM x VE) / 3456, and entering 302 CID, at 1000 RPM at 0.8 VE we arrive at a 87 CFM, or a staggering 2474 liter/minute. So using 34:1 ratio we need 2474 / 34 = 72 LITERS PER MINUTE OF HYDROGEN JUST AT IDLE TO EQUAL THE SAME AMOUNT OF ENERGY

This Mileageshop.com thing only makes 2-3 liters per minute, and even THAT I highly, highly doubt. Here is the real science for anyone to read, and this is only at idle so there is no way in hell this would have ANY actual effect, as Popular Mechanics proved as well. I am not a chemistry or physics grad student or anything, this can all be figured out by basic high school knowledge of chemistry and the raw numbers, then working the problem out. For some nagging reason, I don't think this will at all affect the people who are blindingly defending this useless product, but at least it might help someone who is on the fence to not buy this piece of crap.

If you want to increase your mileage, do basic maintenance on your car all the time, use the lightest oil you can for your area, check tires religiously, DRIVE CORRECTLY, etc.

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#103 General Comment

ok......

AUTHOR: youranidiot - (United States of America)

so because this site is called RIPOFFREPORT, there should only be comments as to things being a ripoff even when its not true?

I must apologize, i thought this site was created to inform buyers of scams and potential hazards, but i just assumed that went both ways. If someone posts on here and says SCAM SCAM SCAM!! That must be the proof right there right?

Its quite clear that there are those of you who moderate whats allowable and unallowable to post on certain topics.

Your claim that HHO has been around for 92 years is BS, While the idea of using hydrogen has been around for 92 years and probably even longer, the ideas on using it for automobiles has been tossed for about 50 years.

do a little homework on francisco pacheco and then tell me that no one has tried to post positive results for this idea.

just because mainstream corporate america tends to not allow advertisements of things that will have a very negative effect on not only our economy but also our political stances as a country, doesnt mean that just because you say no and the EPA hasnt published test results doesnt mean this idea does not work.

Do you know the negative effects that would come from the wide retailed business aspect of mass producing a energy alternative like hydrogen?

Lets think about this on a larger scale...... Gas consumption goes down, economic spending decreased due to one of the largest revenues our country has is no longer neccessary. Stock markets crash due to dramatic decrease in oil company stocks which inturn have a ripple effect across all of american spending.

Military actions currently in progress suddenly lose purpose, although im sure that you probably believe that the military is REALLY over there just trying to rebuild right?? HAHA, foreign trade commission suddenly has a crisis on its hands due to the middle east no longer having a major source of income besides heroin plants. So the middle east looks for ways to start financing their not so public agendas, which can be done by a number of different things, selling nuclear weapons, more kidnappings of american citizens, ect. ect.

Please dont waste the time to tell me that this thought process is just paranoia and that things like that dont really happen in the world, ever since oil has become the pridominant economical source, small time people with revolutionary ideas have been snuffed out since the 50's do a little homework on it. There was a man that invented a 100% electrically powered car in the early 60's only to have the patent bought for 10million by none other than the oil industry!

Ronny G, my hat goes off to you for sticking to your guns, unfortunately your claims are unbacked and you leave the proof that this couldnt and does not work is somehow proven because you cant google EPA reports on it! Well my friend, if you are going to wait for the EPA before you do a little homework yourself and just buy into the fact that if the EPA doesnt say it works then by god it doesnt work, then you really dont have a verifiable objective opinion on the subject.

But it really doesnt matter because like always, there will be people who refuse to believe it until they go to buy a new car one day and the only kind of car they can buy is one that uses a hydrogen source of energy. Some people just find comfort in being stubborn to a point of ignorance and trying to get others to join them in an incompetant viewpoint.

I also like the part about needing to produce 5000watts of power to match airflow intake, first of all, find me a teenage bass head who hasnt already added 3000-6000 watts to a stock system with his annoying subwoofers and dvd tvs and whatever else they like these days. Also, you said to MATCH airflow consumption, the goal of hydrogen gas being added is not to replace the air going into the motor, obviously the airflow is needed still to allow combustion and the more air the less fuel you need, all hydrogen does when introduced to the system in help ignite smaller amounts of fuel but still give off desired energy which then relates to your vehicles computer saying that it is getting the results it desires with less fuel therefore it saves gas consumptions

 

but anywho, enjoy ignorance and trying to convince others that you have any type of clue about what your talking about and i will go back to living in reality.

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#104 Consumer Comment

Look, this is the REAL issue...

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

..This site is called RIP OFF REPORT. Myself and others firmly believe that the claims made by the sellers of HHO systems, and the books on how to build your own, are a fraud, swindle, con,scam... and rip off. The reason we feel this way, is because any legitimate testing done has concluded no positive results, and yes..has much as you hate to read this..the "science" aka physics conclude the claims are impossible and ludicrous.

I am EXTREMELY open to any inventions that can get us off of, or decrease our dependency on oil. But when claims are based on bad science, and people are getting scammed and ripped off, why should it go undisputed?

You are acting like this HHO is some kind of new revolutionary idea. The first Hydrogen/Oxygen Generator was invented and patented in 1918, by Charles Frazer. So it is 92 years later and not a SINGLE legitimate test result from a qualified expert that proves it can do anything for an ICE?

Perhaps this is because it does not change the compression ration of an engine..only leans the mixture which can cause damage and increase deadly emissions?

The fact that it would require over 5000 watts to produce enough hydrogen to keep up with the intake airflow?

The fact that the power required to generate this much current from the alternator would offset any potential gains (not even taking efficiency LOSSES into consideration)?

The fact that Popular Mechanics which spent a lot of money to have tests done at the EPA testing facilities proved the system did nothing..and possibly hurt fuel economy a little by consuming extra current from the alternator?

The fact that as long as these systems have been around..been "enhanced"..been "improved"..not a SINGLE qualified expert has been able to show any HHO device actually improving fuel economy for motorists?

What is it that you would like me to say? Okay?..you are right? These systems must work just because YOU say so?? I just can't do that.

If anyone can show me documentation from a QUALIFIED expert (I am sure there must be one who is not in "cahoots" with big oil), then I myself will buy a franchise and start installing and selling these myself. You have my WORD on that if it means anything. I patiently await the test results. Or will it take another 92 years and more "inventors" getting sued and locked up for FRAUD?
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#105 General Comment

to ronny g

AUTHOR: youranidiot - (United States of America)

I enjoy how many people who try to discredit the possibility of hydrogen as a fuel catalyst always throw out phrases like "if you can beat the science" or you would win the nobel prize"

ronny g - apparrently you believe that by focusing on the combustion efficiency that it lays to be said that there is no room for improvement, but please elaborate for all of us who obviosly arent as knowledgable as you. Even if an engine is 100% combustion efficent --Which by the way only relates to the fact that it IGNITES 100% of the fuel introduced into the engine, has no relationship with the fact that it burns off at only 20-45% usuable engery. Therefore if you take a motor that has 100% combustion efficency and you introduce a means to slow the burn process and increase the temprature of the burn process.. i.e. kind of like higher octane levels burn hotter, then you can improve the power and gas mileage quite easily. You however seem to think that throwing out terms and relating links to articles that are 2 years old or more is somehow relevant to the fact that alternative fuel solutions is much more advanced than it was 2 years ago. Your links that you posted, if you read in depth only mention introducing about 1 LITER of hydrogen per minute which is far less than any current system on the market can produce at this time. There are probably 95% scam products out there for purchase right now, but i have found a few that are very close to giving the desired results that started all of this in the first place. It seems to me that you will post anything in hopes to discredit the possibilities which can usually result from 1 of 2 things, 1 - you are ignorant, or 2 - its your job to post all over the internet to incite doubt into todays buyer market.

To use a term like "if you can beat the science" is almost laughable because anyone who is involved in a scientific field will explain to you that the ultimate goal of science itself is to BEAT THE SCIENCE. If we as scientists never question the things that have supposedly been proven thus far, then we would be at a stalemate in advancement technologies. It is always the goal of science to take what we have learned thus far and then try to improve and elaborate on the topics more completely. I am not sure what exactly it is that you are specifiying when you say "If you can beat the science" because that is such a broad statement that it leaves more than a little to be desired. Are you trying to say that it is impossible to improve on the current conditions of fuel consumption and sources? Are you saying that from a view point of where technology is now that we will never be able to use hydrogen as a added fuel substitue? Becasue im pretty sure most hybrids now use a hydrogen cell as opposed to these less technical applications of HHO generators, but nevertheless its more than a little bias to try and say that its not possible nor will it ever be. So if your going to try and discredit such things then atleast give an educated answer as to why becuase all i hear when i read your post's are that you have vague knowledge of engines and an attitude towards hydrogen advancements and you want to try and persuade people against the possibilities by using motor jargon and backing it up with old tech reports and advanced terminology of engine characteristics.

To those who may be doing your homework because you are interested in such systems, here is my advice to you. If you know someone or have seen some improvements with a particular companies product and are wanting to get it, then get it. Be wary of the shady companies because there are more scams out there than legit products, but there are legit products out there right now that use this technology. Dont search the internet for answers because you will find an infinite number of people saying yes and people saying no. This originial complaint that started this is posted word for word on about a dozen other web sites and so for someone who claims he doesnt slam people and this is his first time complaining, he sure did know how and where to post, i personally have never seen someone post so many diffrerent sites based off of one claimed experience which in itself leads me to be curious.

ronny g- im not trying to personally attack you, but i do know that your information is viewed by many many people on a daily basis who find a link to view this thread because they are doing their homework on HHO. If someone else wants to risk the chance of getting a good product instead of being ripped off by all the crap companies, then i believe that its a persons job to not tell them no, but to guide them if they do choose to make that choice. The tech info on this page so far is very incomplete and misleading. HHO is possible, it will be beneficial even at small amounts and down the road in the future, science will find a way to fine tune, optimize the benefits and market this in a more standard and reputable way than it is now.

 

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#106 Consumer Comment

If you can understand the physics...

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

Here it is...proof unless you can dispute the physics. I copied this section from comments on Electrorheology Leads to Efficient Combustion by
Tao et al. Omer L. Gulder*
Institute for Aerospace Studies, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario M3H 5T6, Canada. Revised Manuscript Received November 9, 2008

If you understand the physics, and know how to research the sources to rebut any of this..I will be mighty impressed.

"In both modern gasoline and diesel engines, built within the last 10-20 years,
combustion efficiency is about 98-99%, if not better. That is,
less than 1-2% of the fuel may survive combustion and show
up in the exhaust stream as unburned hydrocarbons (HCs) and
carbon monoxide (CO). In diesel engines, also present in the
exhaust is the particulate matter (PM).

There seems to be a confusion about the thermodynamic
efficiency and the combustion efficiency in the paper
. The
former is defined by the first and second laws (of thermodynamics),
whereas the latter is a measure of the percentage of fuels
enthalpy of combustion (heating value) that is released as heat.

The basic claim of the authors is that the finer atomization
provides more efficient combustion. If the combustion efficiency
in IC engines is about 98-99% and only a few percent of the
fuel may make it to the exhaust, which can be found documented
in numerous sources on engines,(4-9 )where does the improvement
come from to enhance mileage by 20%?

Combustion efficiency ?c can be formally defined as (5)
?c)
m[ S
i,reactants
ni?h j f,i- S
i,products
ni?h j f,i]
mfQHV
where m and mf are the mass flow rates of reactants (fuel air
mixture) and fuel, respectively. ni is the number of moles of
species i in the reactants or products per mass of working fluid,
and ?h jf,i is the standard enthalpy of formation of species i at
the standard temperature at which QHV, lower heating value of
the fuel (same absolute value as the enthalpy of combustion),
has been determined. For practical calculations based on exhaust
gas analysis, eq 1 can be expressed as follows:(9)
?c)
QHV-[mCO?hf,CO+mHC?hf,HC+mPM?hf,PM+mNO?hf,NO]
QHV


(1) Tao, R.; Huang, K.; Tang, H.; Bell, D. Electrorheology leads to
efficient combustion. Energy Fuels 2008, 22, 3785-3788.
(2) Heywood, J. B. Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals; McGraw-
Hill: New York, 1988; pp 15-25.
(3) Heywood, J. B. Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals; McGraw-
Hill: New York, 1988; pp 25-37.
(4) Stone, R. Introduction to Internal Combustion Engines, 3rd ed.;
Society of Automotive Engineers: Warrendale, PA, 1999; p 37, 107.
(5) Heywood, J. B. Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals; McGraw-
Hill: New York, 1988; pp 81-82.
(6) Borman, G. L.; Ragland, K. W. Combustion Engineering; McGraw-
Hill: New York, 1998; p 252.
(7) Hochgreb, S. In Handbook of Air Pollution from Internal Combustion
Engines; Sher, E., Ed.; Academic Press: New York, 1998; pp 118-170.
(8) Siewert, R. M. In A New Generation of Engine Combustion; Duret,
P., Ed.; Technip: Paris, France, 2002; p 12.
(9) Cakmakci, M.; Sayin, C.; Gumus, M. Exhaust emissions and
combustion characteristics of a direct injection (DI) diesel engine fueled
with methanol-diesel fuel blends at different injection timings. Energy Fuels
2008, 22, 3709-3723.
Energy & Fuels 2009, 23, 591592 591
10.1021/ef800829v CCC: $40.75 ? 2009 American Chemical Society


If this is too confusing..click the link and rebut this...It is easy to understand.

Why Water Won't Improve Your MPG: A PM and Dateline NBC ...






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#107 General Comment

please show documentation of 100% combustion efficiency!!!

AUTHOR: youranidiot - (United States of America)

Please show me documentation that says that current engine combustion efficiency is almost 100% because that is flat wrong and to claim it makes serious doubt in the validity of anything you are saying due to the fact you claim to be knowledgable on the subject.  20% energy extraction is typical of an ICE but note when reading some of the HHO sites that they claim an efficiency increase in the energy extraction process and there's the critical difference.
 
It is very possible (and indeed proven) that the percentage of energy converted into mechanical energy can be increased by slowing the flame propagation in the combustion chamber causing a reduction in irreversible thermal loses, resulting in shorter injector pulses and therefore better fuel economy. Incidentally the current max values for high efficiency Otto cycle engines running on conventional fuels is around 32% conversion of energy into mechanical energy, whereas the max for Diesels is presently around 52% so I'm sorry but there is no 'have to'. Theoretical maximum hovers around 59% based on the Carnot cycle between the adibatic combustion temperature of pump gas (about 2300 degrees Kelvin) and the admitted max working temperature of steel (about 925 degrees Kelvin, and note we're limiting it based on steel, not any exotic ceramics). Some of us in the petrochemical engineering field have worked on hydrated alcohol mixes in steel Otto cycle motors and achieved between 35% and 38% extraction efficiency as a result, I suspect we can achieve more too so don't throw all hope of increased fuel economy away. Think about it this way - the O2 sensors in your injection system prevent very much variation in the fuel exiting your exhaust system and yet you can radically change the mechanical efficiency of your motor by being gentle (or not) with your accelerator despite the pumping losses actually decreasing when you open it all the way up... Most of that difference is in the thermal losses because the expansion rate of the burning fuel mixture is limited, which is why your exhaust temperatures increases. 
 
There is a large potential for improvement in most ICE motors presently for sale. I therefore remain open minded about the possibility of devices which will help to improve the energy extraction efficiency of Otto cycle engines and await results from HHO system manufacturers with bated breath - until then I'll continue working on the fuel development.
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#108 Consumer Comment

Combustion efficiency...

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

Flynrider..you are correct. But looking at the whole picture you are left with 80% waste. Lets assume 98% of the energy in the chemical bonds of the fuel from the combustion process... roughly 30% is realized at the flywheel. The rest is shed as heat from the radiator and exhaust and used in overcoming engine friction, etc. About 30% of the usable energy produced by the engine is used to overcome friction in the transmission, differential, wheel bearings and tires, leaving us about 20% of the energy of the fuel being used to move the car forward.

But I agree completely. There would really be no point in using an HHO system into an engine that is already at close to a 100% "combustion" efficiency.

Now on an older vehicle that is not burning nearly as efficiently, you could realize some gains in MPG and HP by this type of means, or any type then can improve burn. The problem is...and those that do not understand this never will it seems, it that to get the hydrogen from the water in any amount that would yield an improvement in combustion efficiency, would require current to be drawn from the alternator, and this uses up power and burns more fuel. The calculations do not lie..it takes a lot of current to extract hydrogen from water..well at least enough to do any good. Why don't the manufacturers already do this if it could help anything? Oh..that's right..because it is physically and theoretically impossible for it to do any good.

If anyone can beat the physics, as I have stated before..there is a Nobel Prize waiting for you, don't waste your time defending it here or scamming people on the web. Go get your prize. Then document the results, have independent testing and the EPA sanction some tests...and you will be a billionaire. And THEN you can say "I told you so" to us "naysayers". BTW...

Popular Mechanics did testing, I would say Popular mechanics is a reasonably legitimate and trustworthy source...they claimed no improvement...it did nothing and improved nothing.
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#109 General Comment

flynrider and others

AUTHOR: youranidiot - (United States of America)

First of all i would like to state that i am not a promoter of this product nor do i claim its validity, but i do wish to address that for all the slamming on this idea and claims of showing proof, we have posts from people such as claiming to be advanced chemists and have degree's in mechanical engineering! well that's great, but just because you claim to have this supreme knowledge doesn't mean you actually have any idea about what your stating. I have seen alot of people throw out thermaldynamics and violating laws of the universe about energy production being equal or less to what was put into creating it. Thats great and all but it doesnt really apply here. we are not talking about running a vehicle off of just hydrogen, its being used as a catalyst to improve the efficency of the fuel already being used which like was stated earlier - only about 25-45% depending on vehicles and types of fuel. Thus comes into play the fact that circumventing electricity from your vehicle to seperate elements of water to their originial broken down composition which happens to be a flamable gas has nothing to do with thermo dynamics in the sense you claim. I am drawn to seriously question why someone who paid for such a prominent education would be scoping out the internet scams anyways? nitpicking the word usage really is pointless when your nitpicking at nonsense. If I say that i am a proffessor of theoretical astronomy and physics does that mean that every word i have written thus far should be taken as pure fact by anyone reading these statements who doesnt know any better? Out of all the comments left i find it amusing that all of the ones who are claimed to be written by men of great knowledge all made an error about one of their facts at least once in each statement.


With all of the things that people can do today with alternative fuel sources such as the used vegetable oil that was mentioned, i have seen prototypes of cars that use garbage fertilizer to run off methane, i have seen solar cars, i have seen cars that are purely electrical that can go from 0-60mph in 2 seconds! Technology is at a peak and it is propelling our eagerness and drive to accomplish these wonderful contributions of alternative fuel sources so that we dont pollute our planet so much as we are currently doing. copernicus was highly regarded as a mathmatician and astronomer and had people convinced that the earth was the center of the universe, which basically sums up my views on this subject. First - those who are trying to argue the validity of the possibilities needs to go back for another degree in not being an ignorant idiot, Second - Just because something isnt EPA documented and certified does not mean that it MUST be a scam, solar powered cars were not EPA certified for 20 years while they were playing with the ideas of making it cost effective and marketable. So to all the Nay Sayers, please show me the evidence of the test you have personally performed with similar set ups and how they achieved no results and actually lowered HP.

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#110 Consumer Comment

He didn't say "thermodynamic efficiency"

AUTHOR: Flynrider - (USA)

"This is not accurate. Diesel engines are around 45% efficient vs. around 20- 30% for gasoline. Although further advances are possible which can yield 55-63% for a diesel..which is impressive by todays standards."

  He specifically said "combustion efficiency" which is an entirely different thing.   Modern engines with closed loop ECUs do approach 100% combustion efficiency.   The point that the poster was (correctly) trying to make is that adding some goofy hydrogen generator is not going to improve something that does not need improvement.

  If you're going to question someone's accuracy, please get your facts straight. 

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#111 Consumer Comment

Response to Kevin...

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

You obviously have the credentials to rebut Jeremy...but I feel you are being too generous.

You are correct that you will see no positive results. Because as you state, there has been NO EPA testing on these HHO systems. The sellers of these systems know if they requested the EPA to do any sanctioned testing, it would conclude a fail. As a physics major you are aware that physics and math do not lie..only people do. Not to say mankind knows everything...but what little we do know..is undisputed. If anyone can beat physics as we know it..they are up for a Nobel prize..not peddling kits online.

However, you state "the problem of course being that modern engines' combustion efficiencies are pretty darn near 100%."

This is not accurate. Diesel engines are around 45% efficient vs. around 20- 30% for gasoline. Although further advances are possible which can yield 55-63% for a diesel..which is impressive by todays standards.

Unfortunately even with todays modern internal combustion engines..and all of the electronics systems used to monitor air/fuel ratios, oxygen sensors, air flow rate etc..still can not beat the physics. Appox 38% of power is lost through exhaust heat. 36% through water heating, and around 6% from friction. So any modern engine that is averaging 20%-25% efficiency is considered normal. With a highly modified engine such as an expensive race engine, it is possible the THERMAL efficiency may reach in the area of 35%.

Granted the MECHANICAL efficiency can average 94%...since average frictional losses can be around 6%..once you consider the effectivness of the fuel combustion..it is really only around 20% effective. We just can not beat the physics of volumetric efficiency under normal atmospheric pressure without superchargers or turbochargers. But even taking into account their efficiency..it takes MORE fuel consumption to realize any power gains. It is not defying physics...as the artificial aspiration requires more fuel to make more power.

Now these HHO systems are seemingly using current from the alternator (which I would best estimate at around 60% efficient in itself for an alternator), for the hydrogen conversion..and then what needs to be taken into consideration is how efficient is the conversion itself? Even at 80% which is generous...it already becomes apparent that there could be no real gain in overall efficiency in a modern engine from this system. The only way possible..would be if the conversion yielded more power then it requires due to the parasitic draw of the physical resistance required to turn the alternator, and lugging the additional weight of the system itself (parts and liquids). In other words...the system would need to be more then 100% efficient to yield any positive results as far as power gains/fuel consumption...it is simply not possible from a physics standpoint as we understand it today,

 Even if you used a separate power source that did not run off the alternator of the vehicle..then you have to consider the additional power requirements (aka fuel consumption) to lug around a power source(s) that can produce the required current and wattage to sustain the conversion for normal daily driving. And one way or the other..you would have to charge these power sources,,which always has a cost.

No matter how you slice it..the numbers prove it wrong. The lack of ANY EPA testing does not help. It only concludes there is a con going on. However, I am open minded, and like Kevin would apologize profusely if any sanctioned EPA test results are posted in a PDF for us to witness the claims are proven. If not...then we con only conclude shenanigans.

Testimonials in themselves are suspect. ... just ask anyone who was ripped off by a psychic.
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#112 General Comment

Response to Jeremy

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

"Hello my name is Jeremy I am a certified HHO system installer."

Hello Jeremy, I am a graduate student of physics at the University of arkansas.

"I have about 3yrs experience with this technology so far I have seen negative and positive results. 99% of the negative results have come down to faulty installation, HHO system is not efficient enough, and/or the vehicle is not in proper running order."

I have yet to see ANY positive results and I have looked.  The people selling the tripe invariably have little to no understanding of exactly how these devices are supposed to work and when you ask them for any EPA test results they, for whatever reason, never seem able to provide.

"When you have those criteria met you will have positive results. I have personally installed 5 Alternative gas solutions systems on peoples carsand have had all positive results."

I am just going to be frank here Jeremy.  You are a liar.  Provide a link or pdf of any EPA test result which supports your claim here and I will apologize profusely.  However we both know this won't be necessary as you have never actually installed one of these systems and obtained any increase in fuel efficiency.  You should be ashamed of yourself.  And dropping your phone number is a transparent and pathetic attempt to profit from this con.

"One time I installed a system and it was bad it had a crack in the casing. Sent it back and received a new one within a week. AGS system got us 39% increase (no modification to sensors or ecu) in gas mileage and held strong until the guy totaled his Jeep. I installed a AGS system on a Honda civic 1998 that had 188000 miles on it and it got 50mpg from 33mpg right after I installed it (no modification to the sensors or ecu). That system has held strong since I installed it a year and a half ago."

You had such great results and failed to have these results verified via an independent, EPA sanctioned test?  Such a result would certainly have made you millions!  Except you know you are making these numbers up, don't you. 

"So far the biggest problem with this technology is all the unsubstantiated negative propaganda on the internet and people presuming what their mpg are going to be."

Why don't you provide EPA sanctioned test results and shut them up?  These devices, from a physics standpoint, are utter nonsense.  Most of the claims invoke blatant violations of conservation of energy and the rest put forward the ignorant misconception that adding hydrogen to the fuel mix can increase your mileage via increasing the combustion efficiency of your engine--the problem of course being that modern engines' combustion efficiencies are pretty darn near 100%.  


"Just as a maxim in life to remember "an investment in a product is a risk no matter how big or small, how proven or not proven, warrantied or not warrantied". If you need help with your system or just want info on this technology give me a call 619-929-9316 Jeremy :-)"

This, however, is a con, and Jeremy is certainly aware of it...that or he is an idiot.  But I think the first option is more likely.  Thus he drops his number on here..you know, to offer his assistance...out of the goodness in his heart.
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#113 General Comment

This "smells of scam"

AUTHOR: Damian666 - (USA)

I was interested in the product - after reading through the site I became suspicious for 2 reasons.

1. I did not believe the technical details
2. It didn't feel right

I then did a search on the net and became even more concerned.

Here are some observations
1. No company Address
2. No Company Contact names
3. I am convinced from pixel analysis that the company logo with the vertical orange stripe  has been added in photoshop - I challenge them to  put up a hi def image and prove me wrong.
4. I don't believe the photographs are form their workshop.
5. The branch manager did not give his name.

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#114 Consumer Comment

also to note...

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

you state..."I run a 750 watt inverter to charge my gps and cell phone and it doesn't effect that volt guage at all."

Again..you are flaunting your lack of knowledge of electronic principles. First of all why do you need an inverter when these devices are designed for 12 volt DC operation and charging? Regardless....

The 750 watt inverter does not mean it constantly uses or demands 750 watts. That is only the max rating of the inverter. As I stated previously, it is CURRENT DRAW that taxes the charging system.

 Now..honestly..how much current do you think charging a cell phone and GPS draw? A few milliamps? And even if it drew a few amps..of course you would not notice it on your voltage gauge..since the regulator would increase the voltage. The regulator is designed with intent..on just about every vehicle made..to limit the voltage output of the alternator to approx 13.8 volts. 14.5 would be optimum to charge the vehicles battery..but 14.7v or above can cause the acid in the battery to boil..and that can't be a good thing..as the gas produced is explosive..and no one wants a melted battery or an explosion..we can all agree?

Next you state "unless the hydrogen booster/generator is using 2000 or more watts I think I'd still be safe"

It is not a matter of "think"..you must KNOW the precise amount of current the booster/generator will draw..plus know it's efficiency to really accurately determine how much current it is drawing, and if the vehicles charging system is up to task. Plus "knowing" these numbers and not "thinking"..can help you predict if you will actually yield any benefits.

I don't want to overwhelm or bore anyone to death with the formulas and physics..but according to my calculations, even if the conversion were 100% efficient which is not yet possible, it would require approx 6000 watts, or if using ohms law to convert...6000 watt/12v to make around 20 Horse power. The math tells us this is closer to 500 amperes of current. Since the typical automotive alternator is pretty much maxed out after 120 amps or so...I do not see how it is physically possible to yield any significant gains by this process.

At half the projected increase assuming an impossible 100% efficiency..would require 250 amps for 10 HP. half that assuming 100% efficiency..is 125 amps for 5hp. So even to gain 5hp assuming an impossible 100% efficiency..would require an upgraded alternator..which is not cheap. And then...it would STILL require using more power from the engine to run it.

Do you get the point? Physics? They do not lie. If they do and you can prove it..stand in line with Albert Einstein for a noble prize.






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#115 Consumer Comment

Good luck with it.

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

You still have to be careful with any conversions. A 1993 vehicle still has an OBDII and is subject to emissions standards. And it does have computer codes. As long has the conversion or additive does not mess with any of the emission controls...it would probably go unnoticed. As well, if your state does not have emissions testing, you get a free pass.


Now by displacing the diesel with something that cost less, you may save on fuel costs..unless it hurts the efficiency..then it could cost more...or break even, As well..what good is saving a little on gas but you lean out the mixture and destroy the piston rings or injectors. Will this additive pay for an engine job or replacement if it destroys it?


Why do you only get 7-10MPG?..I think a semi gets better mileage then that. Is the vehicle well tuned or do you lug a lot of weight?


Now as far as saying your truck is producing 14v so you have 2 extra volts to make hydrogen is not scientifically accurate. I don't expect you to understand ohms law or the principles of electricity unless you went to school for it..but it is not that simple. There is no "extra" volts. EVERY electrical item in your vehicle that is in parallel with the battery and alternator...is all getting the same voltage..minus any voltage drop in the wiring. It is the CURRENT demands the tax the alternator..and ANYTHING electrical connected to the charging system..will draw current and work the alternator harder. Simple physics..nothing is free..energy is neither created or destroyed, only converted. When the alternator works harder it uses horse power. This horsepower is provided by what??? Yep..the engine that is burning fuel. There is NO WAY around the physics..period.


However, if it works and actually does increase efficiency/power even by a very small amount by providing a cleaner burn and denser mixture...and causes no ill effects..it can save you a little. So if the experiment does not cost you too much..try it. Driving 3000 a week as you claim..you will certainly notice any savings. No one has documented any real savings by doing this so perhaps you will be the first?


On the truck and car we converted to veggie..this was in south Florida which was a help. The year round sun help keep it thin. We used tank heaters, heated filters, and always refined the veggie. And only used good stuff..no McDonalds oil. Funny..we consume it in food..but it is not good enough for the fuel tank..lol. But this way the engines and injectors were safe from coking and we could run 100% veggie. We would prime with diesel and then run a minute or so with diesel before shutting down as a precaution. The truck had a huge tank in the bed, the VW had one that fits in the spare tire well. It really works but it is a mess, a lot of work, and inconvenient. At the time when gas prices were way up though..it seemed very worth it and really did pay itself back and then some.

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#116 General Comment

I am curious as I drive 3000 miles per week

AUTHOR: Joe - (U.S.A.)

 I will do some research myself and feel confident I will find a system that will "boost" my efficiency in my 93 Isuzu diesel truck. Since its a 93 diesel, I don't have to worry about computer codes to mess with the engines running ability. it will be a system that acts as a booster, bringing the hydrogen gas in through my air intake between the air filter and turbocharger. This is where the much acclaimed and proven propane boosters are installed. The propane boosters claim to increase combustion efficiency and thus the need to 'floor it' to get up a hill is reduced. I will be installing one of these as well and since LPG can be bought for under $2/gallon and diesel is over $3/gallon, my cost per mile will decrease, even if there is NO increase in power or efficiency.

  Concerning hydrogen boosters, since I drive 3000 plus miles per week  and get only 7-10mpg and thus spend $1000-$1400/wk on diesel fuel, any amount I spend to decrease my cost per mile is huge to me. My truck is always producing 14 volts so I believe I have 2 extra volts to make Hydrogen. I run a 750 watt inverter to charge my gps and cell phone and it doesn't effect that volt guage at all. so unless the hydrogen booster/generator is using 2000 or more watts I think I'd still be safe. Furthermore if it only increases my mpg by 1/4 (.25)mpg instead of the claimed 30%-40% it would still save me (based on 8mpg avg.) almost $40/wk or $2000/yr. Is that just chump-change?

  As to using Vegy oil in your diesel...you go dude. I am a proud believer and user myself. Except I mix 50%diesel X 50%waste vegy oil. Sometimes I don't even filter it, if it looks really clean. I have two filters on my stock truck now and a water separator. Not a good practice every day but when you're about broke, and have 20 gallons of WVO, Motor oil, tranny fluid,etc. I don't let it go to waste. I get miles out of it. My goal: the amount I "SAVE" on fuel I can buy a new one every 8yrs

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#117 Consumer Comment

Well the internet has helped the lazy..

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

..Certainly before the internet we only had books to rely on..or mail order. Or the news media.

Now in a few clicks of a mouse, more information then one could ever use in a lifetime is available free of charge..other then a little time.

This topic is of extreme concern to me being in the automotive industry. As a matter of fact..when fuel prices began to soar a few years ago...my colleges and I were hell bent on finding a way to shaft the Government (who essentially and as USUAL sat on their hands while the wall street hedgers were literally fleecing retirement finds), and to end this dependence on foreign oil which we all know full well a part of the proceeds are going to the enemies of this country. Today being 9/11, it has a very special meaning to me, as I was living in NYC in 2001.

What we did, was extensive research of alternative fuel sources. At the time..it seemed that the answer may be in converting diesel engines (which by no coincidence were DESIGNED to run on vegetable and waste oil), to actually run on waste vegetable oil.

And we were quite successful. Now for these scammers to claim unsubstantiated and impossible to prove physics benders that you can save money by converting water to hydrogen and that will be the answer..we had two vehicles, a Ford truck and a Volkswagen running on just about 100% waste vegetable oil..which at the time we were able to get all we needed for free from restaurants. So we did not need to claim 40% improvement or 10% improvement or any improvement. We went from paying almost 5 bucks a gallon..to ZERO.

And these vehicles still to this day..are basically running on egg-rolls, pizza and french fry waste oils.

Now we did not try to become millionaires or scam people. We simply invested in a home refinery and did what we needed to prove this could be done. And there is more then enough testing done to prove this system works. However, price of gas has dropped to the point where it is not yet economically feasible...to expect a large amount of motorists to spend a few thousand to convert to vegetable oil. Or to buy an old diesel car or truck to convert. Or to expect anyone used to the convenience of just pulling up to a gas pump and swiping a card...vs dealing with collecting and refining disgusting used restaurant oil to be used to get to work or take a vacation.

The truck was driven from South Florida to New Orleans and back on ONE tank of FREE used vegetable oil...not "bio fuel" or "bio diesel" etc mind you..but 100% free crap that was going to be disposed of anyhow.
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#118 Consumer Comment

Good research job

AUTHOR: Ramjet - (U.S.A.)

I was actually too lazy to look all this information up.  I have read some of these kind of reviews over the years but couldn't cite them.

What I was really getting at I guess, is that if there actually were properly controlled studies showing these things worked as stated, they would be proudly displayed on their web site.

That's what I'm really waiting for.


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#119 Consumer Comment

Don't hold your breath...

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

There actually are some "independent" tests...these are the legitimate testimonies from those who reported the product did nothing..or it was not able to be used effectively or installed as simply as implied... "plug and play, no modifications required".

As well there are some that do claim better performance and fuel savings. Unfortunately, none of these results have been substantiated, hence the positive results claimed could be a "placebo" effect, caused by other factors such as simply driving more conservatively or leaning out the fuel mixture (which can cause mechanical problems and worse emissions), or the person is biased because they are selling the system and/or installing them.

Now as far as the EPA doing any testing...they only do testing if the company who makes the product requests a test. I don't think any of these companies are about to do that...or certainly it would have been done already. As well I don't think the EPA would take lightly any device that could or may require tampering and fooling the ECM, timing, oxygen sensors or any other systems and devices mandated by the EPA/ federal law and standards to reduce emissions and increase fuel efficiency. They certainly would be more then willing to test any device that would help in this area...as I am sure would the manufacturers who spend millions and millions in any attempt to increase power and efficiency even by a fraction of a percent, while reducing emissions. I would hope they would take note if there was a more economical way to do this..especially if it just required adding water and electricity.

I mean it is apparent the EPA has done plenty of testing with "actual" fuel cells, and I know some mass transit systems use buses that run on hydrogen, and the car manufacturers have certainly been working on and producing these...

"Ford Motor Company recently

introduced the P2000, a new car with a hydrogen internal combustion engine

(ICE) that "could help bridge the gap between gasoline vehicles and

the fuel cell vehicles of the future."

"Honda

has introduced the FCX, a car utilizing a fuel cell instead of an ICE.
[3]

This gives an overall efficiency of 45%. A fuel cell turns hydrogen into

electricity which drives the wheels through electric motors."

"The BMW Hydrogen 7 is the world's first production-ready hydrogen vehicle. It's already proving itself in the real world too: we're putting 100 of them to the test as loan cars for leading figures from the worlds of culture, politics, business and the media, including Oscar-winning film director Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck and Erich Sixt, chairman of rental car company Sixt AG."


So there is no way anyone can claim some conspiracy against using hydrogen as an alternative fuel source. The difference is a real fuel cell does not violate any laws of physics. It is just simply too expensive to mass produce or replace internal combustion engines at this point in time. But there is a huge difference between a fuel cell...and claiming massive or any gas mileage improvements by converting water to hydrogen and piping it into the engine of an everyday gas burning motor vehicle.

Here is some documentation that can be investigated if anyone has a further interest or wishes to defend this "science" or claims made..all underlined words, sentences and numbers are links to the sources of information.

Fringe science and fraud

Oxyhydrogen is often mentioned in conjunction with devices that claim to operate a vehicle using water as a fuel, or that burn the gas in torches for welding and cutting at extreme temperatures, sometimes under the name "Brown's Gas" after Yull Brown who advocated such devices, or "HHO gas" after the claims of fringe physicist Ruggero Santilli.

The most common and decisive counter-argument against using the gas as a fuel is that the energy required to split water molecules exceeds the energy recouped by burning it, and these devices reduce, rather than improve fuel efficiency.[10]


Many of these sources also suggest that modifications to the engine's air-fuel ratio, ignition timing, emissions control systems, electronic control systems and possibly other design elements, might be required in order to obtain any significant results. Due to the inherent complexity of these subsystems, a necessity of modern engine design and emissions standards, claims made by proponents of hydrogen fuel enhancement are not only difficult to substantiate, but often disputed.

To date, Hydrogen fuel enhancement products have not been specifically addressed by the United States Environmental Protection Agency. No research devices or commercial products have reports available as per the "Motor Vehicle Aftermarket Retrofit Device Evaluation Program."[9]


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#120 Consumer Comment

Still waiting

AUTHOR: Ramjet - (U.S.A.)

And we are still waiting for published results of tests conducted by independent testing labs including the EPA and others.  The only things you ever see are stories, anecdotes and testimonials.  None of these comprise any sort of proof at all.

Believe me, if you could actually achieve these results, the world would be beating a path to your door.

The old saw about the oil companies suppressing these thing doesn't cut it.  There are many companies and governments all over the world who would LOVE to have this technology if it worked and the oil companies cannot stifle everyone.
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#121 Consumer Comment

Snake oil anyone???

AUTHOR: Ronny g - (USA)

Honestly...if the claims these scam companies made we anywhere near the truth, these inventors would be applying for the Nobel prize..not messing around with these rinky dink website claiming huge gas savings.

Now I was not a major in thermodynamics or physics for that matter, but did go to college for electrical engineering and had to take a few physics courses. And I do remember there are a few elementary laws regarding physics and thermodynamics that have not been broken yet by anyone who has claimed so...here is an example of a few who have "claimed" so in the past...

Stanley Meyer
water fuel cell
  Meyer's claims were never independently verified, and in 1996 he was found guilty of fraud in an Ohio court. He died of an aneurysm in 1998, and conspiracy theories persist in claiming that he was poisoned.

Charles H. Garrett  Charles H. Garrett allegedly demonstrated a water-fuelled car "for several minutes", which was reported on September 8, 1935
Garrett's patent fails to identify a new source of energy

Genepax Water Energy System    On the company's website the energy source is explained only with the words "Chemical reaction". The science and technology magazine Popular Mechanics has described Genepax's claims as "Rubbish."

Genepax's web site has been offline since February 2009.

Also in 2008, Sri Lankan news sources reported that Thushara Priyamal Edirisinghe claimed to drive a water-fuelled car about 300 kilometers on three liters of water.  Thushara was arrested a few months later on suspicion of investment fraud

Daniel Dingel, a Filipino inventor, has been claiming since 1969 to have developed technology allowing water to be used as fuel   In 2008, Formosa Plastics successfully sued Dingel for fraud, with the 82-year-old Dingel being sentenced to 20 years imprisonment
.

Now some of these "HHO" kit scams are not saying your car will run on water..but that it is a fuel enhancer...

Main article: Hydrogen fuel enhancement

In addition to claims of cars that run exclusively on water, there have also been claims that burning hydrogen or oxyhydrogen in addition to petrol or diesel fuel increases mileage. Around 1970, Yull Brown developed technology which allegedly allows cars to burn fuel more efficiently while improving emissions. In Brown's design, a hydrogen oxygen mixture (so-called "Brown's Gas") is generated by the electrolysis of water, and then fed into the engine through the air intake system. Whether the system actually improves emissions or fuel efficiency is debated.

A common fallacy found in connection with this type of modification is the mistaken assumption that cars generate excess electricity via their alternators that normally goes to waste and therefore is available for electrolysis. The amount of force required to turn an alternator or generator depends strictly on the electrical resistance of the circuits it is supplying, and residual heat lost due to friction. If an electrolysis unit is added to a car, the amperage it draws from the car's electrical system will make the alternator harder to turn, which will put additional drag on the engine. As a result more fuel will be required to maintain the same rotational speed (RPM.)

A number of websites exist promoting the use of oxyhydrogen (often called "HHO"), selling plans for do-it-yourself electrolysers or entire kits with the promise of large improvements in fuel efficiency. According to a spokesman for the American Automobile Association, "All of these devices look like they could probably work for you, but let me tell you they don't.


(Sources wikipedia)

In a nutshell, gasoline engines are on average around 25% efficient, which means 75% is wasted energy...this is bad granted. But in order to make the electricity required to dissociate water, requires burning gasoline. If you were actually getting more energy from the alternator to split hydrogen and oxygen then energy being used to power the vehicle overall, it would be violating the 2nd law of thermodynamics and you would have a perpetual motion machine.

While it is not theoretically impossible for any additive to give a very slight measurable increase in fuel economy..it is the outrageous and impossible claims most of these companies make which are false, and a scam. Do you really need to spend nearly 1000 dollars to save a tiny bit of fuel? (if it even works at all?)...or just keep the vehicle well tuned and maintained, proper air pressure in the tires, and drive a bit slower?




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#122 Consumer Suggestion

HHO systems do work!

AUTHOR: MrHydroguy - (United States of America)

Hello my name is Jeremy I am a certified HHO system installer. I have about 3yrs experience with this technology so far I have seen negative and positive results. 99% of the negative results have come down to faulty installation, HHO system is not efficient enough, and/or the vehicle is not in proper running order. When you have those criteria met you will have positive results. I have personally installed 5 Alternative gas solutions systems on peoples cars and have had all positive results. One time I installed a system and it was bad it had a crack in the casing. Sent it back and received a new one within a week. AGS system got us 39% increase (no modification to sensors or ecu) in gas mileage and held strong until the guy totaled his Jeep. I installed a AGS system on a Honda civic 1998 that had 188000 miles on it and it got 50mpg from 33mpg right after I installed it (no modification to the sensors or ecu). That system has held strong since I installed it a year and a half ago. So far the biggest problem with this technology is all the unsubstantiated negative propaganda on the internet and people presuming what their mpg are going to be. Just as a maxim in life to remember "an investment in a product is a risk no matter how big or small, how proven or not proven, warrantied or not warrantied". If you need help with your system or just want info on this technology give me a call 619-929-9316 Jeremy :-)
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#123 Consumer Comment

Thanx Kevin

AUTHOR: Ramjet - (U.S.A.)

Thanks for challenging these fraudulent claims.  They are, indeed, as bad as homeopathy if not worse.

All you will find on any of their sites are testimonials.  I know, and they know, that testimonials are proof of nothing.  Until they provide proper official testing result by a recognized lab. they have nothing.

Please don't spend your money one these things, they have been around in various forms for decades and they still don't work.

 

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#124 General Comment

The Physicist Responds

AUTHOR: Kevin - (USA)

I would like to request that, rather than accuse this customer of a random act of dishonesty, the owner of this company provide evidence for the validity of his company's product claims.  These devices ARE fraudulent.  The way in which they supposedly work doesn't even make physical since.  They absolutely do not increase your fuel efficiency.  The truth is they do mostly a whole lotta nothing however they do tax the electrical system of your vehicle to a slight extent and thus will REDUCE your fuel efficiency slightly--though likely imperceptibly.  This company is trying to sell you the automotive equivalent of homeopathic sleeping pills.  There are consumer protection laws to deal with this kind of fraud, however the internet simply makes it too easy to simply open another company or disappear into the shadows of cyberspace.  There just are not enough resources to deal with these people.  And even then, like the homeopathic market, they have found that, through careful wording of their product claims, they and avoid legal responsibility.  

I would like to point out that you can not buy any such product from Auto Zone.  The reason is because Auto Zone would be easily taken to task for selling a product that boast 40% and up increase in fuel efficiency and fails to deliver.  It should certainly bother you that these devices only exist on the internet.  There is a VERY good reason for this.

So, to the man who responded on behalf of this company, rather than asking this individual to PROVE that he bought your product, which I'm sure he did as I don't see why someone would lie about such an embarrassing lapse of judgment, why don't YOU provide an EPA test result confirming that your device has increased the fuel efficiency of any vehicle up to your claimed 40 to 60%.  Obviously you would have obtained these test results BEFORE you marketed this device and made these claims.  You should have no problem uploading an image of the results or providing us with information sufficient to obtain the results from the EPA ourselves.
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#125 REBUTTAL Owner of company

Response from the Branch Manager of the Mileage Shop!

AUTHOR: Calob - (United States of America)

Hello,

I'm the Branch Manager of Mileage Shop and I'm writing to address this complaint. I want to start off by saying that this complaint is 100% not true. Every HHO kit and/or accessory we sell is shipped the very same day it is ordered unless it is ordered after business hours; for-which, it is then shipped the very next morning. Every kit we sell goes through a double check inspection, this is where we have our kits double checked by two separate shipping employees for completeness before it is shipped out. As a company, it is more expensive to be careless and as a result ship out
multiple packages. We operate and build our patent pending Hydrogen Cells at our state of the art facility with a warehouse and a full time customer support staff. If you still question this, stop by our facility and we will gladly offer you a tour or you can call 928-772-6613 and you will be helped by one of our friendly customer service representatives. We take the time to ensure all of our HHO kits are made with the best quality materials in the market, we demonstrate this with a before and after picture comparing our steel against our competitors steel. This comparison image can be found on everyone of our complete kit detail pages. We are so confident in the quality and durability of our HHO Kits, that we back up every kit sold with a lifetime warranty.

We have never received a complaint that we have ignored and/or not addressed
to the satisfaction of the customer. With that said, we would like the
author of this complaint to post a scanned copy of his/her invoice
notating the order number and we will gladly provide evidence that will
prove the illegitimacy of this complaint.

Thank you to all who care enough about their decision to purchase a
quality unit, who in turn will take the time to research the ethical
nature and quality customer support that we here at the Mileage Shop are
so proud of.

Branch Manager,
Mileage Shop

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#126 Author of original report

More interesting info

AUTHOR: Lab Tech - (United States of America)

So I also came across some more interesting information. 

Check out these two sites:


and


No wonder they can't get their ordering straight. I bet both their businesses are scams! Buyer Beware! 

Hope this helps everyone out! Be Careful of these people!
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