• Report: #27006

Complaint Review: Mormon Church, Mesa Police

  • Submitted: Thu, August 15, 2002
  • Updated: Sat, October 09, 2004

  • Reported By:
Mormon Church, Mesa Police
Arizona Temple Visitor's Center Mesa, Arizona U.S.A.

Mormon Church, Mesa Police Mormons, Mesa Police Mayhem Part 3 of 4 Mesa Arizona

*Consumer Comment: Rebuttal to 'The Saint' about byzantine corruption

*Consumer Comment: Bible bashing

*Consumer Suggestion: Mesa deserves what it has...

*Consumer Comment: If you made any sense, it would be worth arguing

*Consumer Comment: Comparative Religions and Acceptable Behavior in Public

*Consumer Comment: Will Emily from Wichita, KS, ever get the picture about her "true" church?

*UPDATE Employee: So it isn't the Mormons? It is just a group that happens to be...

*UPDATE Employee: So it isn't the Mormons? It is just a group that happens to be...

*Author of original report: Mesa Police, Mormon Church win this round

*Consumer Suggestion: Emily, nobody HATES Mormons...

*Consumer Comment: Here you go again... I can't wait to do this to your children...

*Consumer Suggestion: There are always two choices or more.....

*Consumer Suggestion: Getting rid of useless flab is a good start...Hutchinson is where it begins....

*Consumer Comment: Don't go there! And don't give these filth any money, either.... Criminals=Mesa P.D.=corruption of the lowest order, way beyond ancient Byzantium

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Mormons, Mesa Police, Mayhem (Part 3 of 4)

[See Part One, which has background info.]

If you've been following our story, poor Mr. Craft has suffered twice now at the hands of the Mormons and Mesa Police. It's not over.

On Saturday, March 30, Mr. Craft was standing on the sidewalk, near the corner of a Park, as he had been for 4 days prior. But this was a special night - the last night of the Mormon Easter Pageant. The biggest night, attendance wise, and the last night Mr. Craft planned to be in Arizona. As every street criminal knows, you always target the "out of towner" as he's less likely to travel back and forth from home to fight. From his previous arrest, the Mor . . . er, Mesa Police knew Mr. Craft was from out of town too.

Because they love Mormons, Mr. Craft and his sons were preaching the Bible, warning Mormons that their church is not true, and handing out literature (what Christians call "tracts") to passersby. Perhaps an omen of things to come, Park Rangers came by (they're not sworn police officers - kind of quasi officials) telling him and his boys that they could not hand out literature in the park because there weren't allowed to solicit on private property. Huh?

Mr. Craft read them the sign at the entrance to the park, which read "Public Park." (Guess you don't have to be literate to be a city worker.) And that "soliciting" implies "money." (ditto) The Rangers wanted Mr. Craft to stand on the grass between the street and the sidewalk, claiming the sidewalk was part of the Park. Mr. Craft called his lawyer (thank you, Lord, for cell phones) and reminded the Rangers that public sidewalks had been deemed by the Supreme Court to be public forums, and that he was simply exercising his 1st Amendment Right to free speech and freedom to practice his religion. In turn the Rangers called someone on their cell phone. Fortunately, this time the Law of the Land prevailed, not the law of Mesa. The Rangers hung around for a while and then left, never to be seen again.

There were no problems until 8:15 p.m.. The Pageant had started, Mr. Craft was done preaching until the Pageant was over. He was playing with some of his many kids in the park. (He has 9, although he's a Christian, not a Catholic. ) The next moment, 4 Police Officers are marching toward Mr. Craft. He's under arrest again!

His crime? Preaching while Mormons are praying. That's what they told him! Bet you didn't know that was illegal in Mesa.

Actually, the legal charge was a subset of Disorderly Conduct, "Interfering with a lawful meeting." The claim is that Mr. Craft, who was preaching to some people on their way to the Pageant, from across a 4 lane street, with the attendant vehicular traffic, in a Park, while Mormons are in an open air assembly a few hundred feet away, was intentionally trying to disrupt their meeting.

Mr. Craft was oblivious to the goings on across the street, as was anyone who was in the Park. It's interesting to note that there wasn't a big red flashing light that flashed to alert the world that Mormons were praying, nor did the Police stop traffic on that 4 lane street during Mormon prayer. The claim from Mormon witnesses is that Mr. Craft was preaching during the entirety of the prayer and doing so purposely. (The law requires "intent.") But the videotape shows Mr. Craft unaware of the happenings across the street and he doesn't preach unless someone is walking by. This didn't occur until AFTER the prayer started! (My, what a great testimony these Mormon people have - in more ways than one.)

Photo below is a shot from the videotape.

The clock on the camcorder is set 5 minutes fast, so this is just before 8 p.m. when the pageant starts. The prayer is in progress. You can hear it from the camcorder in the closed up car, as the prayer was broadcast over a VERY powerful PA system. Also, if Mr. Craft meant to disrupt the prayer, then he should have his cone aimed toward the camera, as that's where the pageant is. But stupid him. His cone is pointed away from the pageant, at the gal on the far left of the photo. Do you think maybe the Mormons doth protest too much?

So another false arrest. This makes 3 for 3. Can you say "massive lawsuit?" Is this the church you want to belong to? (Remember, these are Church higher up's making these decisions. The best of the best Mormonism has to offer.)

Mr. Craft was again carted off to jail. This time, it took the usual amount of time to process him (see Part Two, where they delayed his processing for hours until the people that were going to bail him out went home). They were able to bail him out so he could spend Resurrection Sunday with his family.

The only good news here is that the charges were dismissed at his arraignment on the following Tuesday.


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mormonassault@badbusinessbureau.com

The Saint
Phoenix, Arizona

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This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 08/15/2002 12:43 PM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Mormon-Church-Mesa-Police/Mesa-Arizona/Mormon-Church-Mesa-Police-Mormons-Mesa-Police-Mayhem-Part-3-of-4-Mesa-Arizona-27006. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.

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#1 Consumer Comment

Rebuttal to 'The Saint' about byzantine corruption

AUTHOR: Tracey - (United Kingdom)

If Mr Craft were doing this in Scotland, he would be charged with breach of the peace, harrassment and causing annoyance and alarm to members of the public. Not to mention spreading religious hatred - this happened to a Church of England Minister who decided to preach outside a mormon church in Dundee in a similar manner. The court banned from Scotland except for visiting his solictor and appearing at court. There are no mormons in Dundee's police force or court system. Does that mean Scots law is byzantine as well? Our laws are actually older than the byzantine empire (well, most of them).

What happened to common curteousy and good manners or is the american constitution justification for intolerant and rude behaviour? What sort of example is Mr Craft setting to his (how many?) children??
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#2 Consumer Comment

Bible bashing

AUTHOR: Emily - (U.S.A.)

Garth

I am not interested in debating our doctrine with you. Were you of a pure heart and just interested in a little thoughtful discussion I would consider it... but you are not... you are a hate monger.

There are Christian faiths that don't believe in the trinity, we are one of them. Authority always comes from God, just other churches don't agree it has been given to us, or to each other. Salvation I don't know what you are talking about. We absolutely believe in being "saved by grace", we just believe in showing by our works that we follow Him.

You are also incorrect about the highest glory being reserved for only members of the church in good standing. We do work for the dead, baptisms for the dead so that they too may be saved. There are billions of people who lived on this earth who never got the chance to hear the gospel. They DID NOT reject Him, they never had a chance to know Him. Works for the dead is how they can be redeemed. They can ascend to the highest glory by chosing to accept the gospel, and by being judged of their works, AS FAR AS THEY KNEW OF RIGHT AND WRONG. There is scripture that states that unless a man is born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. This was discussed by Jesus Himself. It makes it clear that baptism is not just a sign of obedience, it is mandatory. You need to read scripture in context, not take one verse and twist it to what you would want. And we don't follow anyone by Christ himself, so His words matter more than anyone's... leader or not. They are but men... as are we all.

What goes on in the temple is sacred, often called secret, but there isn't much difference. The scriptures says that you will know the difference between an evil "secret combination" and one which is not because of their works. We do not commit evil acts. We are actually one of the biggest humanitarian churches in the world. The rest of your drivel in regards to this is just twisting words. And again I will not debate beyond what I have stated. You do not seek understanding... you seek to lead people away.

You ask me how I know, and suggest I should go to my leaders and ask them the "tough questions". I took my questions to a higher authority. I took them to God Himself. I stayed on my knees after asking Him and waited for His response. It came as promised in James 1:5 (?) And if any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not and it shall be given him.

My testimony of my beliefs comes from my relationship with my Father in Heaven, and His son, Jesus Christ. I don't need to have my leaders be perfect. I assure you that yours aren't, no man is.... remember? I KNOW that we are children of God, I KNOW my Eldest brother and His love for all of us. I don't think such hate could exist in your heart if you had the same knowledge. You are one who draws close to Him with your mouth, but your heart is far from Him. Seek Him out yourself, and leave to all of us, Mormon or not, the same priveledge. All salvation is personal.
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#3 Consumer Suggestion

Mesa deserves what it has...

AUTHOR: Gordon - (U.S.A.)

Only less than half of Mesa's qualified
citizens vote. The only extent to which
anything "Mormon" has to do with a "conspiracy"
is that they ALL vote, which is why they
control this town.

The BOOK OF MORMON wasn't made up by us
"infidels" (that's what the Bishop in my ward
calls non-LDS people), and Brigham Young
himself used the term "Mormon" to describe
his people. And the meaning of "cult" is
more than you infer. But the thing is,
the problem with the criminals like Hutchinson
and Luster and Donna and Gaffney and Whelen
and the others who keep this little cesspool
operating in the dark isn't that they are LDS--a
fairly high percentage of them ARE NOT, although
they invariably kow-tow to the former city
manager and the former "Deseret Committee's"
descendants; problem is, they are liars,
crooks, and scum. And they do moronic
projects like this stupid ART CENTER downtown.
Judges like Eppich belong behind bars (and he IS
LDS and a total criminal, rotten to the core).

None of this will ever happen as long as
the rest of this community pretends local
politics aren't important, and let these
trash walk on them.

When some s****. /> of your child and claims he did it because
he was "scared" and Nazis like Romley decide
that is fine, well, maybe it will dawn on
you this isn't quite right. That will be ONE
reformer made, the hard way. Unfortunately,
Mesa needs about 75,000 of them to go to the
polls and begin a process of revenge and
cleansing that is more than a century overdue.

And Mesa, frankly, is just a tedious bedroom
community which lacks any guts or any awareness,
and will never begin to make constructive
moves to get rid of the filth it has
inherited.

What do these scum have to do? Murder
ALL you children?
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#4 Consumer Comment

If you made any sense, it would be worth arguing

AUTHOR: Cher - (U.S.A.)

(sigh) Dear Garth

You really need to do better homework before you go spouting off with your mouth. Point in case

1. Christianity vs Mormonism-Mormon is a nickname given years ago, meant to be a slanderous remark. Never offended anyone, so it stuck. The real name of the church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"

2. Definition of Christian-Websters states,"religion derived from Jesus Christ." In otherwords, those who follow Jesus Christ.

Take a look at #1 and # 2. Hello!!! Does anyone else see a connection here?

There is no Christianity vs Mormonism. We both follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Just as there are diffrences among Christian groups, you can expect the LDS church to have some as well.

3. Define Cult-Again, Webster says-"A system of religious beliefs," and goes on to say, "Usually a small group of people characterized by such devotion."

First, it sound to me like any religion could be called an cult, and second, with over 15 million members, would you call that small?

Again, I say...Hello!!!

There is enough flaw in your statement already that its pointless to go on. Your comments are filled with "red herrings" and your deeply entreched bias feelings will not allow you to see logic.

I once had a High school teacher, years ago, who said, "Its pointless to argue religon or politics, no one wins." How very true.

Another saying, "A man convinced agaisnt his will is of the same opinion still."

Nothing you say will ever convince me to change my mind and nothing I say will convince you to alter your views either. Why dont you leave it alone? Why do you find how I worship my God offensive? Am I cramming it down your throat? No. Am I beating your door down? No. If you dont like it, sobeit. Just say, "I dont believe what you believe," and be done with it. What is your obvious obsession with how someone else worships? Dont you think your wasting an awful lot of time dwelling on something you have no control over? I think you just need to get over your self and get on with living your own life. Stop worrying how everyone else is living.

As for these problems down in Mesa, Im very sorry that you all feel your government officals are corrupt. Im not going to dispute anything since I dont live there and dont know of your problems. Although, you certainly can not think that anyone believe that poor little Mr Craft was sweet and innocent in his overwhelming "love for the Mormons." I will say, however, that people are human. Regardless of religion, you are going to have people who make some bad choices. Its everywhere. Not just Mesa. Its every religion, or no religion at all. You ar still a citizen of the Untied States of America. You have rights and yo have a say. Make sure you are voting and maybe you need to request an investigation from a higher level, such as state or even federal agency. Put the blame where it belongs. Your sterotyping and name calling isnt fixing your problems in Mesa any.
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#5 Consumer Comment

Comparative Religions and Acceptable Behavior in Public

AUTHOR: Darren - (U.S.A.)

To any and all,
I would suggest that each person take a look into the history of their respective denominations. Look at them honestly.

Would anyone really want to live in the church and the era of when these churches had their heyday? Would anyone really want to have to defend the behavior of those times?

If there is a relationship between any government and religous group, then that is wrong and needs to be addressed. Whether it is a judge wanting to put the 10 Commandments in the court or the police wanting to gag dissent.

Who they want to allow into heaven or whatever doesn't matter to me...

A little respect towards a person wishing to worship in their own way is not too much to ask.

If there are questions concerning a relationship between a church and government, then take the dissent somewhere more appropriate.

I find it disturbing that yelling at familes with their children as they go into church seems to be the only venue a person can come up with.

Religion aside, boorish behavior in front of my children is unacceptable.

Thanks,
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#6 Consumer Comment

Will Emily from Wichita, KS, ever get the picture about her "true" church?

AUTHOR: Garth - (U.S.A.)

Emily, it is easier to see the truth when you stop believeing you alrady have it. Really it is, and try it sometime, you might actually like it. And at the risk of repeating myself, and someone else, see if you, Emily, can take Pascal's wager and see if the "true" church as it is called, really is true or not. Once you have the answer, you might find you have had the wool pulled over your eyes, but then again, you might not. Taking the statements below and understanding them requires some free thinking on your part. But then again, most people that are in cults of any name, don't and can't think for themselves, because if they did, the cult they were part of would cease to exist, which would be bad for the people at the top collecting all the money.

1. First, it is possible that the Mormon and the Christian, while sincere, are wrong about Truth. Therefore, both Mormonism and Christianity would be false religions.

2. Second, it is possible that the Mormon is right about Truth and the Christian is wrong. If this is true, then Mormonism as brought forth by Joseph Smith is God's restored gospel. Therefore, the Christian would belong to an apostate faith.

3. Third, it is possible that the Christian is right about Truth and the Mormon is wrong. If this is true, then the historic Christian faith is the only true Gospel. Therefore, the Mormon would belong to an apostate faith.

Despite LDS books such as Stephen E. Robinson's Are Mormons Christian? and other "ecumenical" books which attempt to make Mormonism and Christianity appear to be the same, no fourth possibility ("Both are right") exists because Mormonism and Christianity are in complete opposition to one another.

Some explanation may be needed regarding this last point. It should be noted that there are a number of major doctrines which separate the two faiths. These include: the nature of God (One God or many?), Jesus (God or "a" god?), scripture (The Bible or more?), authority (Where does it come from?), and salvation (Grace or works?). To say both faiths are right is impossible because one belief system invalidates the other.

This point can be made most clear in the idea of salvation. There are two types of salvation in Mormon doctrine: General and Individual. General salvation refers to the resurrection of all souls, both evil and good, which is said to have been made possible when Jesus sweat drops of blood in the Garden of Gethsemane, thus paying for the consequences for all mankind's sins (Mormon Doctrine, pg. 669).

Individual salvation, on the other hand, is reaching the top level of Mormonism's three-leveled heaven. This is known as the celestial kingdom. Within the celestial kingdom, there are three additional levels. True salvation occurs only at the very top of this celestial kingdom (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 116, 117, 669, 670).

According to Mormon teaching, true salvation in Mormonism can only be received by worthy Mormons via the LDS Church. On the other hand, historic Christianity teaches that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that no person can enter God's presence except through a true faith in Christ (John 14:6; Acts 16:31). An inadequate belief in God leads to eternal death (hell). Therefore, the two faiths cannot be made synonymous.

"Now that we have established that there are three choices, let's discuss the implications of each possibility."

1. If the first possibility is correct, then both the Mormon and the Christian are wrong. Perhaps the Hindu, Muslim, or Jehovah's Witness is correct, or maybe the other side of death is nonexistence. If this were true, both parties should explore all avenues since they are in need of Truth.

2. If the second possibility is correct, then the Mormon is right and the Christian is wrong. With individual salvation in mind as explained above, the Mormon would therefore have a chance to make it to the top level of the celestial kingdom if, as 2 Nephi 25:23 states, he is able to do all that he can do.

Interestingly enough, if the Mormon is right, the Christian's eternal destiny appears to be pretty secure. Since I appear to be a good person with good morals and a sincere heart, several Mormons have told me that I probably will make it to the second level of heaven known as the terrestrial kingdom.

Former, as he is dead now, Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie would agree since he said, "Honorable men of the earth who are blinded by the craftiness of men and who therefore do not accept and live the gospel law" will achieve this level (Mormon Doctrine, pg. 784). Bruce McConkie actually became a believer in the true Jesus of the King James Bible, the one that all others are compared to, when he died and had to stand before the God of the Bible, not the mormon god, and give an account of why he rejected Jesus.

While this level is not as desirable as the Celestial Kingdom, the presence of the Son is evident there (D&C 76:77). One returned missionary even told me that I would shoot myself in the head to get there sooner if I had the chance to peek into this glory for merely five seconds.

3. This brings us to the third choice. However, unlike the previous possibility, no good is in store for the person who loses this bet if this possibility is true. If the Christian is right and the Mormon is wrong, it is the difference between heaven and hell. According to the Bible, heaven is the place where believers will abide with God for all eternity in His presence. Only true believers in Christ will be allowed entrance (Hebrews 12:23; John 3:16-21; Rev. 2:11; 20:6).

It should be pointed out how real hell is for unbelievers (Matt. 8:12, 25:41-46). It is eternal separation from God in a painful and final state (Rev. 14:10-11; 2 Thess. 1:9). It is, in actuality, a second death (Rev. 21:8). Those who will belong to this state include every person who did not have a true belief in God (John 3:18). And, despite the faulty interpretation many Mormons have concerning baptism for the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:29, biblical Christianity leaves no room for obtaining salvation after rejecting it in this life.

In other words, if Mormonism is true and Christianity is false, the Christian doesn't have much to lose. True, he or she may not be eligible for exaltation, but then again, it must be admitted that most of the millions of Mormons now living also will NOT be eligible for this state.
This is true because a majority of Mormons do not even possess valid temple recommends--a certain celestial kingdom requirement--let alone "do all they can do." Despite the umpteen requirements it takes to be a Mormon, being a good person appears to "do the job" to make it to the second level. But, not all is lost for all of those who are destined for the terrestrial kingdom; indeed, this populace will be allowed to abide in the glory of Jesus and comfortably exist in an eternal state.
However, if Christianity is true and Mormonism is false, the Mormon has everything to lose. Hell is a real place and every person who does not believe in the true God will go there.

Hopefully, Emily, and other mormons, will see this, and ask their elders some serious questions about the above. And if you want to talk about someone that plagerized a book, knowing fully well they would never get caught, read the original "View of the Hebrews" from 1825, a full 5 years before the first Book of Mormon was ever printed. There is an interesting amount of parallels between the two books. Could they both be from God, or both are from man? When people tell me there are things in the Book of Mormon that have been proven, I wonder if the part of the book of mormon they are referring to happens to have been lifted right out of the King James 1611 Bible, complete with a mispelled word.

Why do mormons have secret handshakes and passwords to get into the temple?

http://utlm.org/navonlineresources.htm is where you can find the following and more. It's all about truth, justice and what made this country what it is, a believe in God, and the freedom of religion, not from religion, or religious persecution as isn't the why the pilgrims came here to begin with?

Now read on Emily.

The Mormon leaders find themselves faced with several embarrassing questions regarding the Temple ritual and Masonry. Many members of the Church wonder how they can believe in a secret Temple ritual, when the Book of Mormon condemns all secret societies, bands and oaths. In fact, it plainly states that "the Lord worketh NOT in secret combinations, . . ." (Ether 8:19)

Then, too, there is the question of why Joseph Smith would become a Mason. Besides all of the statements in the Book of Mormon which condemn secret societies, the reader will remember that Joseph Smith joined four others in stating:

"We further, caution our brethren, against the impropriety of the organization of bands or companies, by covenant, oaths, penalties, or secresies, . . . pure friendship, always becomes weakened, the very moment you undertake to make it stronger by penal oaths and secrecy." (Times and Seasons, Vol. 1, page 133)

Benjamin F. Johnson claims that Joseph Smith told him that "Freemasonry was the APOSTATE ENDOWMENT." Why would Joseph Smith join an organization that was in a state of apostasy?

The Mormon leaders now claim that it is not right for members of the Church to join the Masons or other secret societies. Anthony W. Ivins, who was a member of the First Presidency, made this statement:

"The Mormon Church has no quarrel with Free Masonry or any other organization which is formed for a righteous purpose. It advises its members to refrain from identifying themselves with any secret, oath-bound society. . . . It is difficult to serve two masters and do justice to both. (The Relationship of "Mormonism" and Freemasonry, page 8)

Joseph F. Smith, who became the sixth President of the Mormon Church, made this statement in 1900:

"We have passed a resolution that men who are identified with these secret organizations shall NOT be preferred as bishops, or sought for as counselors; the same when it comes to selecting M.I.A. officers. The men who have done this have disqualified themselves and are NOT FIT to hold these offices." (Provo Enquiror, November 12, 1900, as quoted in Mormonism and Masonry, by S.H. Goodwin, page 76)

The Mormon Apostle John A. Widtsoe stated:

"The activities of the Church, in all departments, are sacred, not secret.

"This point of view makes it difficult for Latter-day Saints to look with favor upon secret, oathbound societies. The words of the Prophet Joseph Smith are sufficient answer to the question: (Note especially the last sentence.)

"And again, I would further suggest the impropriety of the organization of bands or companies, by covenant or oaths, by penalties or secrecies; . . . Pure friendship always becomes weakened that very moment you undertake to make it stronger by penal oaths and secrecy (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 146).



". . .we desire to impress upon your minds the sacred character of the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign and penalty, together with that of all the other Tokens of the Holy Priesthood, . . . They are most sacred and are guarded by solemn covenants and obligations OF SECRECY to the effect that under no condition, even at the peril of your life, will you ever divulge them except at a certain place that will be shown you hereafter. The representation of the penalties indicates different ways in which life may be taken."

From this it is obvious that the Temple ritual is a secret, and John A. Widtsoe's statement that "the temple endowment is not secret" is completely false.

So can you put your trust and faith in any organization that will say one thing and do another? It is one thing when a church is involved with government and they are going by principles that are Godly and treat everyone fairly, unlike the mormon church that wouldn't allow blacks into the priesthood until 1978. Hopefully this makes some sense to some people, at least those that can read and figure things out for themselves.
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#7 UPDATE Employee

So it isn't the Mormons? It is just a group that happens to be...

AUTHOR: Emily - (U.S.A.)

So people are just using the term "Mormon church" to discuss corruption that happens to be largely if not entirely of Mormon member orgin.

Okay then... From now one everyone should refer to the Mafia as "the Catholic church". Because they are largely if not entirely made of Catholic members.

I have known members of my church I don't like, I have known some whose business practices I don't agree with. I never thought to limit it to their being Mormon. That is far too much like limiting it to the fact they are white. Which I assume they are, after all of "The Saint" and his ravings.

This seems to me as though a group of people has decided to classify a problem with the name of an entire walk of people. This largely exhibits stereotyping and scapegoating. These are qualities found in bigots and fanatics. It puts people into a separate and lesser class of human. The blacks, the Jews, the mexicans... or in "The Saints" case... the muslims. Not all muslims are terrorist Mr. Saint Bigot. There are muslims in America praying daily that morons like you will quit believing that and see them as people, not as "the muslims". And muslims have never harassed anyone I know about our beliefs...

I do thank you, Jim, for explaining what was meant in these discussions. Yet is almost makes it worse... I am not one of that group. Yet by definition I am grouped in with this conspiracy.

I have been told before I just don't get how it is in Utah, because I am not a "Utah Mormon", and they are different. Now it seems I just don't get how it is in Mesa, because I am not in Mesa... because I don't know "these" people... and they are different.

I don't agree with anyone being harassed because of what race they are, what religion they are, etc. My problem is with Mr. Craft and "The Saint" who seems to think that harassing Mormons at church events is okay.

As to Mesa's corrupt government, law enforcement, etc. that is an entirely different issue. These are corrupt officials and need to be removed from their office. Their religion... as their race, has nothing to do with it.
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#8 UPDATE Employee

So it isn't the Mormons? It is just a group that happens to be...

AUTHOR: Emily - (U.S.A.)

So people are just using the term "Mormon church" to discuss corruption that happens to be largely if not entirely of Mormon member orgin.

Okay then... From now one everyone should refer to the Mafia as "the Catholic church". Because they are largely if not entirely made of Catholic members.

I have known members of my church I don't like, I have known some whose business practices I don't agree with. I never thought to limit it to their being Mormon. That is far too much like limiting it to the fact they are white. Which I assume they are, after all of "The Saint" and his ravings.

This seems to me as though a group of people has decided to classify a problem with the name of an entire walk of people. This largely exhibits stereotyping and scapegoating. These are qualities found in bigots and fanatics. It puts people into a separate and lesser class of human. The blacks, the Jews, the mexicans... or in "The Saints" case... the muslims. Not all muslims are terrorist Mr. Saint Bigot. There are muslims in America praying daily that morons like you will quit believing that and see them as people, not as "the muslims". And muslims have never harassed anyone I know about our beliefs...

I do thank you, Jim, for explaining what was meant in these discussions. Yet is almost makes it worse... I am not one of that group. Yet by definition I am grouped in with this conspiracy.

I have been told before I just don't get how it is in Utah, because I am not a "Utah Mormon", and they are different. Now it seems I just don't get how it is in Mesa, because I am not in Mesa... because I don't know "these" people... and they are different.

I don't agree with anyone being harassed because of what race they are, what religion they are, etc. My problem is with Mr. Craft and "The Saint" who seems to think that harassing Mormons at church events is okay.

As to Mesa's corrupt government, law enforcement, etc. that is an entirely different issue. These are corrupt officials and need to be removed from their office. Their religion... as their race, has nothing to do with it.
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#9 Author of original report

Mesa Police, Mormon Church win this round

AUTHOR: M - (U.S.A.)

First, this is Part 3 of a 4 part series.

Part 1 is here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/view.asp?id=26988
Part 2 is here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/view.asp?id=26994
Part 4 is here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/view.asp?id=27020
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Next, you can see a rebuttal to Emily's rant in Part 4, http://www.ripoffreport.com/view.asp?id=27020

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Now, the end of this story.

Unfortunately, since he's not a lawyer, Mr. Craft didn't know that Arizona has a 180-day deadline for filing a lawsuit against the police. (And none of Mr. Craft's lawyers mentioned this to him, if they knew.) In conjunction with the blatant false arrest told in the story of Part 1, this would have been icing on the cake. It's hard to imagine you can hold someone accountable for interfering with a public meeting when he's in a Public Park, oblivious to what's happening on Church property a few hundred feet away on the other side of a very busy 4-lane street. (You gonna arrest someone for playing football in the park who, while Mormons are praying across the street, shouts Go long! I'll throw it to you! Is that interfering with a public meeting? I don't think so.) Remember too, the law requires intent, and when you look at the photo from the videotape (above) Mr. Craft's cone is turned away from the meeting, because he's preaching to a couple walking along the sidewalk. Hardly the right direction to broadcast if he intended to disrupt Mormon prayer.

But, there's nothing that can be done now. The Morm... er, Mesa cops won this round.

May they receive their reward in full.

The Saint
Phoenix, AZ
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#10 Consumer Suggestion

Emily, nobody HATES Mormons...

AUTHOR: Jim - (U.S.A.)

Emily, you have perhaps crossed into an
area which is more geographic than
religious.

Myself, I am not interested in the LDS
religion, nor am I interested in openly
opposing it. But in Mesa I know LDS
church members who mutter from time-to-time
about "the narrow-minded Mormon IDIOTS
in Mesa city government", and especially
direct that ire at the local police, who
are not only corrupt, liars, incompetent,
and STUPID, but who have show a vast,
chronic, and malignant tendency to, very
literally, cover up crimes committed
by LDS members in good standing, especially
those boasting "temple recommends".

The two most reliable friends I have made
in 17 years in this sewer are BOTH Mormon.
Significantly, both have ALSO left Mesa,
voicing complaints similar to mine.

I don't "hang out" in the Tempe area, which
here is mainly hamstrung by the idiots and
scumbags in local government, who tear up the
streets to "improve" the area, thus making it
impassible most of the time to anyone except
drug dealers and, sometimes, worshippers.

The problem in Mesa is not, in fact, the LDS
religion, but the cadre they began, much of
whose tradition is now carried on by the
corrupt and criminal of other religious
persuasions, and the grossly overpaid morons
who comprise this local police department.

I cannot apologize for those who regard the
LDS religion as heresy, blasphemy, or a
"cult". The only thing I know to a certainty
is that certain members and former members
of this city government ACT as if they were
part of a cult, but in reality, it is
simply a conspiracy, and a vastly criminal one,
from which no good for the PEOPLE of Mesa is
EVER forthcoming. They are thieves, plain
and simple.

I do suspect that a lot of anger among those
of non-LDS religious groups has to do with
the very special status that faith is given
in local schools and local "civil service",
which makes virtually everyone else feel
discriminated against. In fact, they are
probably correct in at least that respect.

More salient, though, a lot of the incompetent
and criminal behavior here--hiding evidence
in criminal cases, suppressing exculpatory
information, downright obvious perjury in
court, false police reports, fraudulent city
money pump projects like their "Art Center"
(perhaps the single stupidest public project
in American history, by the way), malicious
and criminal use of eminent domain, political
hack jobs on those who oppose any of the
preceding, etc., etc., etc.--comes from the
remaining members of what is sometimes
called the "Deseret Conspiracy"...

Violence over religion ought never to happen.
But this is an insane community, run by the
stupidest and most dishonest gang of crooks
any of us has ever even heard of. And
I CAN apologize for the backlash to that
monstrous conglomerate of filth, which more
than 80% of this community would like to
see DESTROYED.
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#11 Consumer Comment

Here you go again... I can't wait to do this to your children...

AUTHOR: Emily - (U.S.A.)

This Sunday I am going to stand in front of your church and tell your children that your beliefs are garbage and that you lie to them.

I am going to tell them all sorts of sick things like that you have multiple wives, entire other families, because maybe your ancestors come from a country that practices that, even though you don't.

I am going to tell them that your religion is a cult. I am going to tell them lots of fun rumors, like that you hate minorities and cook and eat their babies. I am going to tell them that you worship a graven image, how about the cross, the instrument of Christ's death because you hate Jesus. Then I will tell them that you don't even believe in Jesus, you just say you do. Them I am going to tell them that they are going to burn forever in hell. Because they don't belong to the church I think they should.

Do you like that? Neither do we. We go to the temple to worship. We don't like hate mongers screaming these things at our children.

Where does your right to bad mouth us to anyone, and our right to raise our children by our faith begin?

We don't go to your churchs and worship places and do these things? Why do you do them to us?

I wanted to punch out protesters at a circus I took my children to because they were following me down the sidewalk telling my young children that I hate the earth and animals because I was taking them to a circus... for the first time in their young lives. I was mad enough to do it too.

They are my children... I will raise them in my beliefs... as you raise your children in yours. I fully believe you can defend your family in whatever means you deem necessary. I am sorry my Brother in the church attacked the man protesting. But I do not blame him... did not Christ himself turn the moneychangers out of his temple?

Mock us as we go to worship, badger our families as we go to our sacred places. You forgot your white sheets and burning crosses... I guess the KKK doesn't accept people who only hate Mormons though, huh? Never misunderstand, your hatred makes you bigots in spite of that...
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#12 Consumer Suggestion

There are always two choices or more.....

AUTHOR: The Fist - ()

This is Mesa. It is a dishonest, corrupt, and
criminal community, with too much drug traffic and too many police officers who not only do nothing about it, but who move to cover up reality.

So there are some choices to be made by every
individual.

(1. Leave;
(2. ignore the whole mess;
(3. become a Mormon and learn to enjoy
it;
(4. fight like hell, and seek a
vicious attorney with a
national reputation and no ties to
the local slimeoids.

One and four seem the most sensible way
to proceed.
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#13 Consumer Suggestion

Getting rid of useless flab is a good start...Hutchinson is where it begins....

AUTHOR: Edna - ()

Elimate LDS filth and the battle is won. Hutchinson, his toadies and lackies, and the flake scum of Mesa P.D., need to try car washes or

pizza delivery as a trade.



They sure as hell cannot do law enforcement or anything responsible!
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#14 Consumer Comment

Don't go there! And don't give these filth any money, either.... Criminals=Mesa P.D.=corruption of the lowest order, way beyond ancient Byzantium

AUTHOR: Patrick - ()

Isn't it cute? The lowlife slugs of Mesa P.D. so brazen about their bias, in public YET, and up to their necks in kickbacks and bribery and discrimination, and they PRETEND to be in law enforcement???? If you wrote this as a novel

or film screenplay, nobody would believe it.



And yet, Mesa residents see it every day!



Cut the pursestrings. Let these scum and

their criminal coherts wither on the vine!



It is no accident this rotten pile of crap

town is the crystal meth and crack capitol of the planet. These rotten, bogus "cops" are the driving force behind this town's decline, decay, and putrification. And the city manager and his flunkies need to be incarcerated, along with most of the judges and prosecutors.



Ask yourself: why has this town been in a cycle of deep nosedive, accelerating crime, massive "coyote" activity with illegals, growing overall ugliness, disappearing jobs, for some ten+ years? And why has this ridiculous, sick joke of a police department prospered and grown at the same time? Think it's a coincidence? Is somebody out there REALLY THAT STUPID???? It's cause and effect.



Cause=corrupt city administration, led by the bogus toads, Luster, and now his lap dog, Hutchinson, and their lackie police scum. Effect=rot everywhere, as visible as a boil on a baby's butt. Solution=get rid of the scum, once and forever, and close their offices and get rid of their scumbag associates.



Freedom is just a word here. So is honesty. I am not religious, but I become very annoyed when someone's religious or secular freedom is interfered with by this low order of pukefaced weasels. Too bad nobody in this third-fourth rate hole has the decency and vigor to treat these CRIMINALS in the offhand manner they treat decent folks.
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