• Report: #69346

Complaint Review: National Moving Network And AY Transport

  • Submitted: Thu, October 16, 2003
  • Updated: Fri, June 25, 2010

  • Reported By:Alexandria Virginia
National Moving Network And AY Transport
P.o. Box 630850 (NMN), And 125 Component Dr. (AY) Miami (NMN) And San Jose, CA (AY), Florida U.S.A.

National Moving Network And AY Transport I have them where I want them, hahahahahaha! Don't give in so easily, read how... Miami And San Jose Florida and California

*Consumer Comment: Complaints against Attorneys in violation

*Consumer Suggestion: Look carefully at your tickets

*Consumer Comment: the weight was taken on the same day at the same place

*Author of original report: Weight tickets aren't valid

*Consumer Suggestion: Tickets are the least of the problems

*Consumer Suggestion: The tariff is the movers bible which lists their rates and charges along with any rules and regulations they have for themselves.

*Consumer Suggestion: The tariff is the movers bible which lists their rates and charges along with any rules and regulations they have for themselves.

*Consumer Suggestion: The tariff is the movers bible which lists their rates and charges along with any rules and regulations they have for themselves.

*Consumer Suggestion: The tariff is the movers bible which lists their rates and charges along with any rules and regulations they have for themselves.

*Consumer Suggestion: Tariffs, They may be bluffing

*Consumer Comment: too bad... Sadly, this is not true.

*Author of original report: many forms were blank

*Author of original report: many forms were blank

*Author of original report: many forms were blank

*Consumer Suggestion: This May Help

*Author of original report: found out that some of my advice is flawed legally

*Author of original report: here we go!

*Author of original report: here we go!

*Author of original report: here we go!

*Author of original report: here we go!

*Author of original report: lies from lawyers

*Author of original report: I love this... AY's home page

*Consumer Suggestion: a list of the agencies to whom you sould write or call

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Ok, like so many others who have reported their stories here, we were naive movers who got scammed by slick movers. But, they didn't count on fiesty Mama here with lots of time to research and fight back. As of right now, we have our stuff, we paid only a little more than the original estimate, AY is begging us for more money, and National Moving Network cannot claim they have no liabilty for the actions of the carriers. How did we do this? Read on...

We contracted through National Moving Network to go from Portland, OR, to Alexandra, VA. I received a low rate offer from National via email after an internet request to another company. I spoke with David Lamondin in the deposits department. I described all of our belongings, which was very little furniture, but many boxes of books and CDs. I had no idea what such a load would weigh. We have never used a mover before, and we were both nave about the moving industry.

David Lamondin listened to my description, and said No problem, that sounds like less than 2000 pounds. My quote is $1300. I shopped around a little more, and the next best quote was $2500. I had wanted to use a known name, but we had very little money, and price was a big issue. We went back to National, accepted the bid, and paid a $447 deposit. At no time did he tell us they were not the movers (I had no idea there was such a thing as a broker). When we got the contract a few days later, I read every word. I had a list of questions to ask him when I called. He assured me that if anything seemed out of the ordinary, I could cancel at anytime, up to 7 days before the move.

First, I asked him if there would be any additional charges than the fuel, tolls, and packing listed on the estimate. He said nope, what you see is all that will be charged to you (nothing about extra steps, extra long carry, etc). Then I asked who the actual movers would be. He said We gave (gave') your contract to our best company, Modern Moving, out of Michigan. Look them up with the BBB, and here's their phone number. I looked them up, was impressed with their record, and was satisfied, I signed and returned the contract.

I had contracted the movers for the 30 of July, since my baby and I were flying to VA on the 31st. On Sunday the 27th, I received a call from the drivers of the moving van, asking if they could come the next day, 2 days early. I said there was no way we could be completely packed by then, and anyway, we hired them for the 30th. After a few more times asking, he said we'll have to call some different drivers then. I hope they don't get angry! I took this as a threat to our stuff. I called Modern Moving to ask what had just happened, and they said they didn't have our contract, didn't know why National would have told us that.

Using my caller ID, I called the driver I had just talked with. He told me they were with AY Transport, and gave us the office number. We were furious that we were lied to about who was handling our belongings. Monday, we called National to speak with David Lamondin about the problem. Every time I asked to speak with him, I was either hung up on, or transferred out of the phone system, or sent to the wrong person. Finally, on the 23rd call, I was told I could only speak with my Customer Service Rep, Walter Sanchez. We left several voicemails with him, and got a call back a few hours later. He listened to our story about the threat, put us on hold, then came back and said they'll be there tomorrow (Tuesday).

We stayed up all night frantically finishing packing the last minute items. Tuesday came, and after 6 hours of waiting, we called the drivers. They said they'd be there tomorrow (Wednesday). We went to a hotel. Wednesday came, after 6 hours of waiting, all of this is in an empty, un-air-conditioned apartment, we tried to call the drivers, no answer. The home office told us that National had contracted them for the 31st, they'd be there Thursday, 8-10 am. If they're not there by 10 am, call us, we'll straighten it out.

10 am on Thursday came and went. We began to call other movers for last minute emergency moves. United was willing to come look at our stuff, and pick it up the next day (provided my husband could have left one day later, he was driving to a conference). We called the drivers again, and they said they'd be there by noon. They did arrive at that time, only 5 hours before I was supposed to be at the airport. Very pressed for time, I listened to the driver go over the paperwork with me. I knew I needed to read all of it word for word, given what had happened already, but until I signed all the forms, the man was not packing my belongings onto the truck. I skimmed them as best I could, but was not able to read the Rights and Responsibilities book. While they were loading our stuff, I had to repack some of the smaller boxes into large, heavy boxes, plus, I was trying to babysit a toddler while my husband was out getting a flat tire fixed. I have never felt so helpless in my life! They were finally done at 3 pm, 2 hours before the airport. They told me about the extra 3 flights of stairs and 2 times a long carry, adding more money, plus the same charges to unload at the other end (despite David of National having told me NO extra charges), and, now that all our stuff was on the truck, it was more like 3000 pounds, 60 cents a pound, more money, we'll call you with the final total in a few days. I had wanted to witness the weighing myself. Goshen, the driver, told me I would get a certified letter at the unloading showing the 2 weights. They left (after having the gall to ask for a tip!), we took out what trash we could grab, before running back to the hotel to leave for the airport. We did not get to clean up our apartment before leaving, so we've lost our security deposit.

On Monday of the next week, I received a voicemail saying the new total was more then $3800, not including the deposit already paid. The Customer Service rep for AY, Elena, told me the actual weight was 5400 pounds. It didn't matter to her that National had told me it was less than 2000 pounds. At this point, I went online to research the moving laws for all states involved. It was here that I found the two websites about moving scams. I read every word, and realized I was just another statistic. I felt so stupid for having been roped into this scheme, until I remembered that David Lamondin had flat out lied to me to get my contract. I was determined not to let them do this to me. For 3 days, I couldn't sleep. I pored over all the information I could find, including reading the entire Title 49 law to see how we could defend ourselves. I went over all the paperwork for the movers and National again, and found that AY Transport, who's office message calls themselves Your Premium Moving Company, had given me one form stamped with Progressive Van Lines of Miami. That was the connection I needed. I had read all the articles about the base for this scam being in Miami, and knew I was definitely in with a bad crowd.

The next day, I went to see the local police. I knew that many departments would be reluctant to get involved, but both the Fairfax County police (where I lived), and the Alexandria City police (where the movers would drop off our belongings) were more than willing to help. One officer gave me his personal number to call, if the movers were to hold our stuff hostage. I called the FBI Washington Field office, but they did not want to get involved. I'd heard that only a federal officer could arrest movers for holding belongings hostage, but I found a section in Title 49 saying that is true EXCEPT in the hauling of household goods. The local and state police CAN help. I also located the 110% rule, where a person only has to pay 110% of the original estimate, and has 30 days to pay the balance to the movers. In my case, the new balance was over 3 times what the original estimate was, and would have cleaned out our bank account.


Our promised delivery date passed on Monday the 11th. That day, Elena at AY Transport told me our things would be here in three days. Thursday, today, when we hadn't heard anything, I called Goshen, the original driver. He told me our things were no longer on his truck, I had to call the office. Elena tracked down the new driver, but surprise, we could not get Gideon to answer his phone all day. Elena somehow managed to find out that it would be here Tuesday to Thursday of next week. I asked her what was taking so long, and why had she told me on Monday it would be three days. I dunno.

No answer, yet again. I asked why our things had transferred trucks, she said it was their standard policy to bring things to their office in San Jose, CA, where it was put into storage until a cross-country trip could be arranged. I said that we never authorized such a trade, and nobody had told us it would happen. Well, National should have told you. Again, it comes back to a convenient omission by David Lamondin and National.

On Wednesday, August 20th, I had not yet received a notice call. I called the movers. The driver, Gideon, said he did not have our things. I called the home office. After identifying myself, I asked permission to record the conversation. Michelle in Customer service said no, even after I brought up that they record our calls for quality purpose. In an unrecorded conversation, she told me our things were in a storage facility in NC, and they would have a truck bring them to us in 5-7 days (by Mon-Wed of next week).

I told her this is now a breach of contract, we were promised 10-12 days delivery at most, she said I'm sorry, there's nothing we can do. I demanded a single truck be sent to pick up our things, she said We can't. I then called Walter Sanchez at National. He also refused recording, despite the notice that our calls may be recorded. Those are for our records. I told him this was for my record. He still refused. In another unrecorded conversation, I told him the new situation, told him there was a breach of contract, and that despite his insistence, National was indeed liable for the mover's problems. I told him that we had contracted for the 30th, and National hired AY for the 31st (according to Elena at AY, on July 30th). He said We told them the date you wanted, and it's up to them to show up on time.

I told him that AY said specifically that National hired them for the 31st. He said, They're lying. I asked why nobody at National had mentioned that our things would go into storage, he told me there's always a possibility that that might happen, we don't know. I asked if they had used AY before, he said yes, I asked I asked if they had put things into storage before, he said yes, and I again asked why nobody at National had told us this could possibly happen. Putting things in storage guarantees that our belongings would not be delivered in the 10-12 days promised.

Sanchez said the delivery days were an estimate and again, National is not liable for any wrongdoing on the part of the movers. I asked how this much miscommunication could go on between the two companies, and Sanchez told me that as soon as I call him, he calls AY to find out where our things are. I told him that whatever AY is telling him is not what they've just told me 5 minutes ago, so why would they lie to Sanchez? I told him that once we have our belongings, we were initiating legal proceedings against National and AY, he said Fine. Is there anything else I can do to help you?

On Monday, August 25th, I called AY. Elena told us out things would be delivered this weekend. I told her that was later that what she told us last week. I don't know why it's being delayed, but our dispatcher said it'll be there this weekend. I asked to be transferred to the dispatcher, there was no answer. I left a message. Left a second message with Walter Sanchez at National Moving.

On Wednesday, Elena said our things would be picked up by Progressive Van Lines, one of their companies-within-a-company, and delivered this weekend. We got a call on Friday saying they would be there on Saturday, the full amount was due upon delivery. I didn't say anything about the amount, but told them I had a cashier's check all made out to them. They said only a money order would be accepted. I returned to the bank and exchanged the check for a money order. Around 8 pm, the driver, Andre, said they had indeed picked up our stuff and would be in VA in the morning. I told him I had the money order, he said they would not take a bank money order, only a postal money order. I told him they were exactly the same, and was not going out to exchange any more money. He said they would meet us at 11 am on Saturday, so they could call the office and ask about it.

Saturday at 11 am, Andre called and said only a postal money order would be taken, no bank ones. I asked where they were right now, he said in D.C dropping off someone else's things. I asked why, when you told us you'd be here at our place at 11 am, he said I'm not going to waste my time if you don't have the right payment. I called the office, which had just opened, informed them that the post office says their money orders are exactly the same as a bank's, and was told by a woman I had never spoken with that it was company policy to only accept postal money orders. I asked why, she said that's company policy. I again asked why can't they accept a bank's money order if even the post office says they're the same. She said We just don't. I again asked what the difference was. She said they won't accept postal money orders. After about 3 minutes of not receiving a sufficient explanation, I hung up and called the driver again. I told him I was going to go get a postal money order, he said he'd be there at noon. I did get a postal money order, and we met them at the storage place a little after 12.

Andre and his partner arrived at our storage facility in a full size truck and trailer marked AY Transport (not Progressive Van Lines). We went into the office for payment and paperwork. The certified weigh tickets were both from August 1st, a full day after pickup. They were both from the same station in Washington State. If the truck was weighed with our things on it, and later the same day empty, where did our belongings go in the meantime? Was there a third storage facility? Were they loaded onto yet another truck? How do I know that there weren't other loads on the truck at the time of the first weighing? When Andre saw the amount of the money order ($1507), he pointed to the paperwork showing the full amount of $3800. I informed him of the 110% law, and said they were even getting a few cents more than that. He said the amount had to be paid in full before delivery. I pulled out both the printout from the government's Title 49 law and the Rights and Responsibilities book that his own company had given me, he refused to read them. He again asked for the full amount, I said I don't have to pay it, I have 30 days to pay the balance (the owner of the storage facility was sitting behind the desk and piped up that I was correct about the law). He tried to leave, we told him we would call the police if he left because he as violating federal law. With several witnesses there in the office, he kept telling us that we would have to pay the full balance if they were to unload our things. We kept telling him he would be arrested if they left, he finally agreed to go call his office.

The man at AY's office told us we had to pay the full amount. I told him about the same law, he said That's not true. I said not only was it true, but I would not hesitate to call the police if the drivers left with our things. I had already spoken with the police, and they said they would come if the drivers left (my husband was on his phone with the police at the same time, and even though the dispatcher was refusing to send any officers, we didn't let the movers know). The man in AY's office kept refusing to let us get our things for less than the full amount. I told him to look in the book that the moving companies are required by law to give out and read it, the law is plainly stated in it. I also told him that his refusal to follow federal law was only giving us more fuel for our lawsuit. He finally told Andre to release our things if we signed the form saying we would pay in 30 days. I told Andre I would not sign anything to that effect, because that's what the law says I would have to do anyway, and I follow the law. I finally did sign the paperwork saying we would pay in 30 days, because I felt I had gotten our point across, and ultimately wanted to see our belongings on the ground.

Andre and his partner delivered our things. Nothing was missing, although our diplomas were destroyed because their glass was shattered. We noted this on the paperwork, and signed everything. At the end of the delivery, when we had all become civil again, I told both of them that I was not yelling at them, I was mad about their company's business practices. I told them if this pattern continues, then one day, they would be arrested, and they should quit AY rather than set themselves up because their company breaks the law. I told them they were very good workers, and could get a job anywhere. The younger man, whose name I did not know, looked very embarrassed. Andre said nothing.

We hired a lawyer to protect ourselves. He offered a settlement of $440.50, for a total payment of $2,394.50 (the amount of the Changes Reflecting Cost page). They responded by demanding the full amount again. AY claims that my charges being forced to sign forms under duress are both completely fabricated (I have 6 witnesses), and hearsay and objectionable (improper use of those terms). It seems like some overworked secretary is trying to sound like a threatening lawyer. If they are accusing me of lying, I have several witnesses who will swear to the events laid out. They say they will take legal action and foot us with the bill to collect the entire amount. My lawyer advised us to do nothing, since it was most likely a bluff, and we can't be liable for their legal fees, anyway. I have filed complaints against both companies with the NMCSA, the AMSA, the BBB (even though they're not members), my congressman (to support the new proposed bill to regulate the industry), MSN (for signing a deal allowing National to be their moving consultants at their House and Home websites), Yahoo (same), and the two apartment finding websites that allow National to swoop in on unsuspecting customers like me. If AY Transport does try to come after us for the full amount, then not only will we go to court, allowing all of their unscrupulous and criminal acts to be entered into evidence, then National is going to have a big surprise. I did not sign the box on the contract saying I agreed to their terms, so they are indeed liable for any wrongdoings of the movers, and they will all have to travel here to Virginia where it's convenient for me.

I do not go quietly.



Interesting footnote:
While surfing the web tonight, I read a customer's complaint about National Moving Network's shenanigans with another company (http://www.ripoffreport.com/report44918.htm), which mentioned that the supervisor at NMN that responded to the Florida BBB's report was Michelle Oney, the same supervisor that wrote my letter from AY refusing our offer and demanding the full amount. Did Michelle change jobs, or are National Moving Network and AY Transport closer than I thought? (Actually, I believe Michelle is one of the Customer Service reps I spoke with when Alana was not there at AY, refusing to allow me to record our conversation) If this is true, then Nationals' claim of having no part in the carrier's wrongdoings is thrown right out the window. Of course NMN would be responsible for AY's actions, because they have the same employees!

Sharon
Alexandria, Virginia
U.S.A.

Click here to read other Rip Off Reports on AY Transport

This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 10/16/2003 08:24 PM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/National-Moving-Network-And-AY-Transport/Miami-NMN-And-San-Jose-CA-AY-Florida-33163-and-95131/National-Moving-Network-And-AY-Transport-I-have-them-where-I-want-them-hahahahahaha-Don-69346. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.

Ripoff Report has an exclusive license to this report. It may not be copied without the written permission of Ripoff Report.

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#1 Consumer Comment

Complaints against Attorneys in violation

AUTHOR: Susan - (U.S.A.)

Hi Sharon

Have you submitted a complaint to both the FL & CA ABA against Mrs. Haggai & Mr. Garcia's questionable legal behavior. You see YeEla Haggai is married to the owner of AY Transport Amit Ezyoni. And Mr. Garcia runs their CA law office, while Mrs Haggai just passed her FL bar. They are at best in violation of a couple DR's.
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#2 Consumer Suggestion

Look carefully at your tickets

AUTHOR: Sharon - (U.S.A.)

M Chrissy,

Look carefully at your tickets. Read every single requirement listed here:

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rulesregs/fmcsr/regs/375.519.htm

If you only have a photocopy (and they didn't even give it to you), then they did not give you a true copy.

Secondly, does your name or the 6-digit order number for your load appear anywhere on either ticket? If not, then there is no way of knowing if the weights belong to your load. Like what AY did with my weight tickets, I think they have given you two tickets for some load somewhere, but maybe not for your load.

The tickets aren't valid if they do not follow every single regulation listed at that website. If they aren't valid, your weight can't be proven, and if your weight can't be proven, they cannot demand extra money from you.
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#3 Consumer Comment

the weight was taken on the same day at the same place

AUTHOR: M. Chrissy - (U.S.A.)

I only have a photo copy of the weight ticket. Nothing else was ever given to me. And I had to ask to have that info. faxed to me. The info on the weigt ticket is filled out. Nothing is missing. Although, the weight was taken on the same day at the same place. But, there are no times given.

Does this mean anything?
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#4 Author of original report

Weight tickets aren't valid

AUTHOR: Sharon - (U.S.A.)

I stand by my original title to NOT GIVE IN to these scam movers.

Thanks to both Concerned Citizen and Borras, you brought up some good points that I will address. First of all, Concerned, are you aware that Norcross is one of the new Hotbeds of Scam Movers, like Miami, New York, and the Bay Area of CA? If you ever have to move, please be extra careful.

I had asked AY Transport if I could get a copy of the tarriff, they refused. They told me they follow the "government one", and I had to find it myself online. And tha tarriffs will not list if they use Cubic Feet as their method of measuring, since Cubic Feet is not proveable. A weight ticket is the only accurate way to prove the amount of the load, and calculate the price based on weight.

I did get two weight tickets from AY, and now I've found out they aren't valid. According to the "Your Rights and Responsibilites When You Move" book (which movers are by law required to give out, there is a new longer version as of May 5), under Subpart E, "How must my mover determine the weight of my shipment", there are four requirements for the weight tickets, including six specific needs of each ticket:

"Your mover must obtain a separate weight ticket for each weighing. The weigh master must sign each weight ticket. Each weight ticket must contain the following six items:

The complete name and location of the scale.
The date of each weighing.
Identification of the weight entries as being the tare, ross, or net weights.

The company or mover identification of the vehicle.

Your last name as it appears on the Bill of Lading.

Your mover's shipment registration or Bill of Lading number.

Your mover must retain the original weight ticket or tickets relating to the determination of the weight of your shipment as part of its file on your shipment.

When both weighings are performed on the same scale, one weight ticket may be used to record both weighings.

Your mover must present all freight bills with true copies of all weight tickets. If your mover does not present its freight bill with all weight tickets, your mover is in violation of Federal law."

Of the six specific needs to the weight tickets, my tickets have only three. If any ONE of these is missing, the ticket is not considered valid. If the ticket isn't valid, it cannot be used to determine weight. If they can't determine weight, they can't calculate a money amount based on weight. If they can't prove the money amount due... well, you get the picture. Also, AY did not give me true copies of my weight tickets, I got one yellow copy, and the other ticket is a photocopy, because the driver claims he lost his copy of the ticket and needed to keep at least one original. Never mind the fact that I asked to witness the weighings and was refused, it was done one day later in the complete opposite direction of where the load ended up, and both within about an hour of each other.

I write all of this regulatory information so hopefully other victims of AY Transport (and all other scam movers) can realize what they are legally obligated to pay. If the movers cannot be bothered to follow federal law, then they are cheating themselves out of payments. I see at least one other RipOff Report, written just yesterday, in which AY Transport attempted to pass off the wrong weight tickets (showed her the blue top-copy of the ticket for four different weighings, for four different trucks, and tried to tell her that they were all her load). They might have been legal weight tickets of someone's load, but in the format presented to that customer, is is not a valid determination of her load's weight. The tickets must have all six of the regulatins listed above, including the customer's name and address so they know it's their load, to be valid. Anything else is just a piece of paper, and won't hold up in court.
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#5 Consumer Suggestion

Tickets are the least of the problems

AUTHOR: Sharon - (U.S.A.)

Concerned, first of all, thanks for your suggestions! Unfortunately, I have tried them all before and found the sad truth that many of the things that AY Transport have done are at the least sketchy, and at the most, illegal. There were two weigh tickets. While my things were supposed to go east, they went north to Washinton State, where the truck was weighed (but I don't know if my stuff was the only load), and then later the same day, a second, different truck was weighed at the same station. This second ticket does not have an imprinted seal, so it could possibly be a fake. I tried contacting CAT Scales company to find out if it is real, but haven't had a response back yet. Also, AY "lost" the second copy of the second (unimprinted) ticket, made a photocopy, but refused to give me the original.

As for the tarriffs, I don't think they really care about what they should and shouldn't have on file. They haven't cared about the law at any other time, why start now? (and I'm not sure I really want any mover to send me the tarriffs, it's about 600 pages long)

I did contact the FBI before my shipment ever even arrived here, but they didn't want to get involved. Too many "real" bad guys to chase.

I know, it's terribly frustrating. That's why HR-1070 REALLY needs to be passed. Look into that, and send lots of letters to Representatives. But again, thanks for your support.
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#6 Consumer Suggestion

The tariff is the movers bible which lists their rates and charges along with any rules and regulations they have for themselves.

AUTHOR: Borras - (U.S.A.)

Any charge/cost assessed by them must be listed in it. If they charge based on weight or volume (Cuft) it must reference this.

The carrier is required by federal law to make the tariff available for public inspection, but they can keep it a their principal place of business and require you to come there to view it.

Should this mover bring you to court, check the federal regulations and have them to produce their tariff in the proceedings in all likelihood they have not followed their tariff.

If you were being charged based on weight, there is a requirement that 2 seperate weighings be done and that no one be on the truck.

In addition, the tickets must contain the last name of the shipper, shipment identification number if assigned and the transporting vehicle identification information.

If they have no valid weight tickets, there is no way to know the exact weight. And most importantly, if they don't have a valid tariff, they can't justify the charges and would have no legal basis to collect the charges.

Federal Regs:
Tariff 49 CFR 1312
HHG 49 CFR 375
Estimates CFR 375.3
B/L 375.6
Weighing 375.7

This should definitely help!
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#7 Consumer Suggestion

The tariff is the movers bible which lists their rates and charges along with any rules and regulations they have for themselves.

AUTHOR: Borras - (U.S.A.)

Any charge/cost assessed by them must be listed in it. If they charge based on weight or volume (Cuft) it must reference this.

The carrier is required by federal law to make the tariff available for public inspection, but they can keep it a their principal place of business and require you to come there to view it.

Should this mover bring you to court, check the federal regulations and have them to produce their tariff in the proceedings in all likelihood they have not followed their tariff.

If you were being charged based on weight, there is a requirement that 2 seperate weighings be done and that no one be on the truck.

In addition, the tickets must contain the last name of the shipper, shipment identification number if assigned and the transporting vehicle identification information.

If they have no valid weight tickets, there is no way to know the exact weight. And most importantly, if they don't have a valid tariff, they can't justify the charges and would have no legal basis to collect the charges.

Federal Regs:
Tariff 49 CFR 1312
HHG 49 CFR 375
Estimates CFR 375.3
B/L 375.6
Weighing 375.7

This should definitely help!
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#8 Consumer Suggestion

The tariff is the movers bible which lists their rates and charges along with any rules and regulations they have for themselves.

AUTHOR: Borras - (U.S.A.)

Any charge/cost assessed by them must be listed in it. If they charge based on weight or volume (Cuft) it must reference this.

The carrier is required by federal law to make the tariff available for public inspection, but they can keep it a their principal place of business and require you to come there to view it.

Should this mover bring you to court, check the federal regulations and have them to produce their tariff in the proceedings in all likelihood they have not followed their tariff.

If you were being charged based on weight, there is a requirement that 2 seperate weighings be done and that no one be on the truck.

In addition, the tickets must contain the last name of the shipper, shipment identification number if assigned and the transporting vehicle identification information.

If they have no valid weight tickets, there is no way to know the exact weight. And most importantly, if they don't have a valid tariff, they can't justify the charges and would have no legal basis to collect the charges.

Federal Regs:
Tariff 49 CFR 1312
HHG 49 CFR 375
Estimates CFR 375.3
B/L 375.6
Weighing 375.7

This should definitely help!
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#9 Consumer Suggestion

The tariff is the movers bible which lists their rates and charges along with any rules and regulations they have for themselves.

AUTHOR: Borras - (U.S.A.)

Any charge/cost assessed by them must be listed in it. If they charge based on weight or volume (Cuft) it must reference this.

The carrier is required by federal law to make the tariff available for public inspection, but they can keep it a their principal place of business and require you to come there to view it.

Should this mover bring you to court, check the federal regulations and have them to produce their tariff in the proceedings in all likelihood they have not followed their tariff.

If you were being charged based on weight, there is a requirement that 2 seperate weighings be done and that no one be on the truck.

In addition, the tickets must contain the last name of the shipper, shipment identification number if assigned and the transporting vehicle identification information.

If they have no valid weight tickets, there is no way to know the exact weight. And most importantly, if they don't have a valid tariff, they can't justify the charges and would have no legal basis to collect the charges.

Federal Regs:
Tariff 49 CFR 1312
HHG 49 CFR 375
Estimates CFR 375.3
B/L 375.6
Weighing 375.7

This should definitely help!
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#10 Consumer Suggestion

Tariffs, They may be bluffing

AUTHOR: Concerned - (U.S.A.)

Go to the federal motor carrier safety registration site do a search for their license. There should be numbers there to call and contact. ASk them where to find their published tariff. Most licensed movers use the "400N" but it is published by not the DOT, but the AMSA. If they are not members, I dont think they could use it as their tariff. Call the local DOT to ask where would this particular company file their published tariff Federal Law requires that they have one published. the reason they do not send you a copy is more than likely because they do not have one.

On the additional weight, did they produce a weight ticket for the truck both empty or before they loaded your shipment, and then again for after it was loaded? By DOT regulations, they must have it on file for over 2 years. The FBI is doing investigations on such rogue movers, and I would contact your field office and ask who is in charge of handling the violations of the laws. They may tell you your claim is civil, but they will want to address the fraudulent tariff I would think? And the non existance of weight tickets. How would you know what the weight is unless, you do like dateline did and rent a truck to weigh it, load your stuff weigh it again, and see if it adds up. They may be bluffing. Without weight tickets, who is to say that you did not actually have less than estimated? Good luck and hope you get settled.
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#11 Consumer Comment

too bad... Sadly, this is not true.

AUTHOR: Sharon - (U.S.A.)

Concerned,

Sadly, this is not true. If it were, then there would be lots of money being shelled out by these guys! Yet, I find it amazing that if WE keep THAM wating even an hour, WE have to pay that kind of money to THEM. Completely bass-ackwards, huh?
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#12 Author of original report

many forms were blank

AUTHOR: Sharon - (U.S.A.)

Concerned,

First of all, do you know where I can find this "delayed shipment payment" in writing? I've never heard of it, but would love to throw it in their faces.

Secondly, they did not fill in a delivery date. The only thing I have with a date on it is my contract with NMN, whch AY was supposed to honor. Many of my forms were blank, which is itself a violation of federal law.

At this point, if there is a suit, I can bring up all the infractions on both companies' parts. I can try to argue to a judge that since both companies have numerous federal law violations, my contract was not carried out as written, and I've already paid 150% of the writen estimate, then I should not be liable for the extra money demanded.

When I called AY for a copy of their tarriffs (which I know could be almost 600 pages, but they are required to produce for me, they told me "We follow the DOT's published tarriffs". I reminded Alana that they were supposed to provide me with them, by law, and she told me to go look them up myself. So, since they never actually gave me their own price list, I suppose it is possible that they could have charged me whatever they want. Scary, isn't it? And not a speck of it illegal.
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#13 Author of original report

many forms were blank

AUTHOR: Sharon - (U.S.A.)

Concerned,

First of all, do you know where I can find this "delayed shipment payment" in writing? I've never heard of it, but would love to throw it in their faces.

Secondly, they did not fill in a delivery date. The only thing I have with a date on it is my contract with NMN, whch AY was supposed to honor. Many of my forms were blank, which is itself a violation of federal law.

At this point, if there is a suit, I can bring up all the infractions on both companies' parts. I can try to argue to a judge that since both companies have numerous federal law violations, my contract was not carried out as written, and I've already paid 150% of the writen estimate, then I should not be liable for the extra money demanded.

When I called AY for a copy of their tarriffs (which I know could be almost 600 pages, but they are required to produce for me, they told me "We follow the DOT's published tarriffs". I reminded Alana that they were supposed to provide me with them, by law, and she told me to go look them up myself. So, since they never actually gave me their own price list, I suppose it is possible that they could have charged me whatever they want. Scary, isn't it? And not a speck of it illegal.
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#14 Author of original report

many forms were blank

AUTHOR: Sharon - (U.S.A.)

Concerned,

First of all, do you know where I can find this "delayed shipment payment" in writing? I've never heard of it, but would love to throw it in their faces.

Secondly, they did not fill in a delivery date. The only thing I have with a date on it is my contract with NMN, whch AY was supposed to honor. Many of my forms were blank, which is itself a violation of federal law.

At this point, if there is a suit, I can bring up all the infractions on both companies' parts. I can try to argue to a judge that since both companies have numerous federal law violations, my contract was not carried out as written, and I've already paid 150% of the writen estimate, then I should not be liable for the extra money demanded.

When I called AY for a copy of their tarriffs (which I know could be almost 600 pages, but they are required to produce for me, they told me "We follow the DOT's published tarriffs". I reminded Alana that they were supposed to provide me with them, by law, and she told me to go look them up myself. So, since they never actually gave me their own price list, I suppose it is possible that they could have charged me whatever they want. Scary, isn't it? And not a speck of it illegal.
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#15 Consumer Suggestion

This May Help

AUTHOR: Concerned Citizen - (U.S.A.)

Check your bill of lading. Did they write in the expected delivery date? I am not sure if they did not write it if it could help. By law, the movers must have a published "tariff" for their rates and charges. Check with the Federal Motor Carrier Safety to see if you can see their tariff. Most movers offer, and legally must pay you $125 per day for delay. As your report shows, it seems as if you have a well documented account of calls, conversations and who they were held with. If they go ahead with the lawsuit, you can tell the presiding judge that you were never informed of this and have yet to receive any "credit" or payment to you for the extreme delay. Hope this helps
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#16 Author of original report

found out that some of my advice is flawed legally

AUTHOR: Sharon - (U.S.A.)

Ok, I have recently found out that some of my advice is flawed legally, so I hope there isn't anyone out there trying to recreate my ending.

I cannot file countersuits for fraud and extortion (thanks, Carmack Agreement!). I can, however, wait to see if AY does file a suit against me for the $2000 balance. I suppose I can always argue that I should not have to pay the amount because they did not follow the contract and broke several federal laws. While that doesn't get me any great satisfaction, it might keep me from paying more. That is, if AY wants to file suit and have their business practices aired in court, which may not happen.

I am also told that the company can go to court wherever they want, and I would have to file for a change of venue to my home. This would not work for everyone, because clauses on the back of contracts state that lawsuits have to take place in the home state of the business, or the complete absence of a contract means the movers can do whatever they want (I wiggled out of that by not signing the "agree with clauses" box, and NMN didn't notice). However, since AY has passed the case on to their Agent for Service (lawyer) here in VA, I assume that means that any suit would take place here.

SO, we're just waiting to see what happens. Hopefully nothing. Even though we got our stuff for half the ransom price, I still feel royally screwed.

Since I live only 10 minutes from DC, I have written all the Representatives that are supporting the new House Bill to protect consumers. While I doubt anything will come from it, I am offering to meet or speak over the phone in support of their bill, and to pass on stories from people like us. At least they'll get a real idea of what the bill means to everyday people!
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#17 Author of original report

here we go!

AUTHOR: Sharon - (U.S.A.)

Michael A. Garcia is indeed AY's General Counsel.

He says that our case is indeed scheduled for litigation, but we have not been served yet. The new lawyer is preparing his case, after AY "ended the relationship" with the previous lawyer (I'd love to know why that happened!)

I am SOOOOOOOO looking forward to any court action. I know I can prove violation of federal laws, and extortion.

I asked if Mr. Garcia was aware of AY's complaint history (28 letters on this website, 167 at the BBB in three years, etc). He says the "represents a small portion of their total business. I am also aware of AY Transport's success rate in court" (smug!)

Believe me, this is not a case that AY is going to win. And help from Big Sister National Moving Network will not get them anywhere, since I intend on including them in the coutersuit for fraud. NMN, AY, and Progressive Van Lines are all owned by the same people, share addresses and phone numbers, and share employees. If NMN claims they are not responsible for AY's actions, I think they can share the lawsuit, too.
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#18 Author of original report

here we go!

AUTHOR: Sharon - (U.S.A.)

Michael A. Garcia is indeed AY's General Counsel.

He says that our case is indeed scheduled for litigation, but we have not been served yet. The new lawyer is preparing his case, after AY "ended the relationship" with the previous lawyer (I'd love to know why that happened!)

I am SOOOOOOOO looking forward to any court action. I know I can prove violation of federal laws, and extortion.

I asked if Mr. Garcia was aware of AY's complaint history (28 letters on this website, 167 at the BBB in three years, etc). He says the "represents a small portion of their total business. I am also aware of AY Transport's success rate in court" (smug!)

Believe me, this is not a case that AY is going to win. And help from Big Sister National Moving Network will not get them anywhere, since I intend on including them in the coutersuit for fraud. NMN, AY, and Progressive Van Lines are all owned by the same people, share addresses and phone numbers, and share employees. If NMN claims they are not responsible for AY's actions, I think they can share the lawsuit, too.
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#19 Author of original report

here we go!

AUTHOR: Sharon - (U.S.A.)

Michael A. Garcia is indeed AY's General Counsel.

He says that our case is indeed scheduled for litigation, but we have not been served yet. The new lawyer is preparing his case, after AY "ended the relationship" with the previous lawyer (I'd love to know why that happened!)

I am SOOOOOOOO looking forward to any court action. I know I can prove violation of federal laws, and extortion.

I asked if Mr. Garcia was aware of AY's complaint history (28 letters on this website, 167 at the BBB in three years, etc). He says the "represents a small portion of their total business. I am also aware of AY Transport's success rate in court" (smug!)

Believe me, this is not a case that AY is going to win. And help from Big Sister National Moving Network will not get them anywhere, since I intend on including them in the coutersuit for fraud. NMN, AY, and Progressive Van Lines are all owned by the same people, share addresses and phone numbers, and share employees. If NMN claims they are not responsible for AY's actions, I think they can share the lawsuit, too.
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#20 Author of original report

here we go!

AUTHOR: Sharon - (U.S.A.)

Michael A. Garcia is indeed AY's General Counsel.

He says that our case is indeed scheduled for litigation, but we have not been served yet. The new lawyer is preparing his case, after AY "ended the relationship" with the previous lawyer (I'd love to know why that happened!)

I am SOOOOOOOO looking forward to any court action. I know I can prove violation of federal laws, and extortion.

I asked if Mr. Garcia was aware of AY's complaint history (28 letters on this website, 167 at the BBB in three years, etc). He says the "represents a small portion of their total business. I am also aware of AY Transport's success rate in court" (smug!)

Believe me, this is not a case that AY is going to win. And help from Big Sister National Moving Network will not get them anywhere, since I intend on including them in the coutersuit for fraud. NMN, AY, and Progressive Van Lines are all owned by the same people, share addresses and phone numbers, and share employees. If NMN claims they are not responsible for AY's actions, I think they can share the lawsuit, too.
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#21 Author of original report

lies from lawyers

AUTHOR: Sharon - (U.S.A.)

Update:

I wrote a letter to the California BBB (among others), and even though I know AY is not a member, I wanted my complaint added to the 167 others they have received against AY Transport in their 3 year history. They sent my complaint on to the movers, who replied with a letter from a Michael A. Garcia, lawyer for AY Transport. The letter was typed on AY Transport letterhead, not the lawyer's own. It includes the following:

"It is my understanding that this matter is currently scheduled for litigation... AY Transport has retained outside counsel in VA to represent our interest. I have been in contact with our Virginia Counsel and have been informed that this case will be in active litigation...However, I can tell you that we remain willing to discuss settlement options...AY Transport hopes this matter may be resolved amicably."

HA!!

Ok, FIRST of all, we made them an offer at the beginning, for a grand total of just under $2400 (the quote was for $1350, and they were demanding $4320). They flat out refused.

Secondly, the unnamed "outside counsel in Virginia" has never contacted me or my lawyer, and it's going on two months since this letter was written.

Third, if the case was scheduled for active litigation, wouldn't I have been involved in the scheduling?

And lastly, "resolved amicably"? OK...

I've done research on this Michael A. Garcia, who only passed the bar on November 28, 2003, going straight on to be AY's lawyer. No phone number is listed on the California Bar directory, only address and email. San Fransisco information gave me his number, but the voice mail said "Mike Missoulu", not Micheal A. Garcia. Possibly a wrong number.

Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I would think that lying in an official letter would be a big no-no.

Perhaps anyone having involvment with AY in the past should write to this lawyer with multiple-page complaints. If we flood his desk with our rantings, he'll realize what scum he now works for.

Help me out here!

LAWYER INFO BELOW FOR National Moving Network And AY Transport ..E-mail & Fax them your complaints!

Michael A. Garcia
2483 40th Avenue
San Fransisco, CA 94116
michaelgarcia@msn.com
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#22 Author of original report

I love this... AY's home page

AUTHOR: Sharon - (U.S.A.)

I went to AY's home page (which must be new, I couldn't find a website when we hired them), which is www.aymoving.com. Go there, and look at the picture right in the middle of the page. What's sad is that their advertising picture shows a couple mattresses and a loveseat strapped to the back of the trailer on a rainy day. Hope the owner likes mold!
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#23 Consumer Suggestion

a list of the agencies to whom you sould write or call

AUTHOR: Sharon - (U.S.A.)

I have spent a lot of time complaining lately. Here is a list of the agencies to whom you sould write or call if you are in the same boat.

Dept. of Transportation
http://www.1-888-dot-saft.com/CC_Info.htm
Since the online complaint form only allows 12 lines for a complaint, I had to fill out 9 consecutive forms to get all my 17 complaints in.

AMSA (couldnt help, they arent members)

Office of the Attorney General
Public Inquiry Unit
P.O. Box 944255
Sacramento, CA 94244-2550
I sent a letter and a copy of this story outlining my complaints, and hopes that they would initiate a formal investigation.

Florida Attorney General Economic Crimes
Division
Ft. Lauderdale Office
954-712-4600
Robert Julian
Still waiting for a return call.

San Jose Sub Offices
Attn: Investigations
1887 Monterey Rd.
San Jose, CA 95112
This is what used to be the INS. I told them that AY was populated by probable illegals, or at least legals who are violating federal law.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/

Internal Revenue Service
Report Suspected Tax Fraud , Call 1-800-829-
0433
They were VERY interested in the fact that AY was a "cash or postal money order only" business. That fact that they would not accept a bank M.O. means they don't want their payments traced. They are probably not paying taxes. I expect they'll be audited soon.

If you have also been a victim of this company, or any others that follow similar practices, call all of these listed agencies, write letters, get under the company's skin. The more people the fight back, the less others can be defrauded, too.

Plus, it feels d**n good to know one person can cause so much irritation to the companies that try to steal their money!
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