• Report: #468650

Complaint Review: National Numismatic Certification, LLC

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  • Submitted: Sat, July 11, 2009
  • Updated: Mon, April 07, 2014

  • Reported By:Frazier Park California
National Numismatic Certification, LLC
P.O. Box 701943 St. Cloud, Florida U.S.A.

National Numismatic Certification, LLC Do not buy these coins because they are a scam. They are overgraded and cleaned. St. Cloud Florida

*General Comment: Jeff

*Consumer Comment: Bob Johnson AKA Centsles is a Fraud on ebay

*Consumer Comment: NNC does not sell coins

*Consumer Comment: Resale of NNC Coins

*Consumer Comment: Hopeless self-slabber

*Consumer Comment: No Problems with theCoinVault

*Consumer Comment: I find that all grading Co. Grade wrong!

*General Comment: Talk About Ugly!

*Consumer Comment: LEARN HOW TO GRADE YOUR OWN COINS STUPID

*Consumer Comment: A One Man Band!

*General Comment: gripers, and incapable of grading anything

*Consumer Suggestion: Forget the rant and stick to facts

*General Comment: knolageable collector started in 1950

*Consumer Comment: NNC is definitely a scam and I have the proof

*Consumer Comment: Self-slabber

*Author of original report: The rebuttal to they are an OK coin grading service

*Consumer Comment: NNC Okay in my experience

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I bought one of their coins from this grading service (1926-S Lincoln Cent in MS-64 RED condition). I was not able to place the coin on the auction block through any major coin auction company (Heritage Auctions, Superior, Bowers and Merena and Stack's). I gave the coin to ANACS to recertify - the coin came back as AU-55 CLEANED). I payed approximately $445.00 for the coin. It was placed on a gallery auction at Heritage Auctions and I received only about $10-$20 for the coin.

People please do not buy wrongly certified coins especially rare one's (Morgan's, Lincoln's, Buffalo Nickels and St. Gaudens Double Eagle's). You will probably get burned big time. I also bought some other coins from two other grading companies, but unfortunately they are now out of business.

PS This coin grading company used to have hundreds if not thousands of coins on Ebay under the three initial name of NNC, but there are very few coins by them now on that web site.

Late_bloomer
Frazier Park, California
U.S.A.

This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 07/11/2009 02:33 PM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/National-Numismatic-Certification-LLC/St-Cloud-Florida-34770-1943/National-Numismatic-Certification-LLC-Do-not-buy-these-coins-because-they-are-a-scam-The-468650. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.

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REBUTTALS & REPLIES:
1Author 16Consumer 0Employee/Owner
Updates & Rebuttals

#1 General Comment

Jeff

AUTHOR: suzyq660 - ()

 

 If you get this upset over reports on the internet perhaps you should avoid commenting on internet pages. Calling people names and insulting them is in no way productive, and just makes you out to be an overly-agressive, angry person. If what they have to say is bothering you so much, you should find other, more calming, internet sites to visit. 

You seem to have the view that everyone on here is an idiot but yourself. Your language and insults would suggest otherwise.

Please stick to the matter being discussed and drop the insults and name calling. No one is getting the idea that you occupy a higher plane of intelligence by reading the vitriol that you spew in your remarks.

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#2 Consumer Comment

Bob Johnson AKA Centsles is a Fraud on ebay

AUTHOR: Customer - ()

Not only is Bob Johnson the same as centsles on ebay he also coluded with another ebay seller Nasim Fakhri (scaglietti89) to intentionlly make a extraordinary high bid on my coin and not pay for it. 

 This serves a warning for all EBAY sellers to block CENTSLES and SCAGLIETTI89 AS BOTH OF THESE PEOPLE WILL BID YOUR ITEM UP AND NOT PAY FOR IT AND HAVE A HISTORY OF DOING THIS TO OTHER SELLERS. This happened to me on 10/10/2013. 

 Also if you have any doubt that Bob Johnson and CENTSLES are one and the same, Nasim Fakhri on ebay confirmed this in an email to me. Nasim told me to sell the coin to Bob Johnson who was the under bidder CENTSLES.

 

 

 

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#3 Consumer Comment

NNC does not sell coins

AUTHOR: hazel1centllkwildcatt - ()

 NNC does not sell coins. CHeck them out on there web page http://www.nnccoingrading.com/ . I have bought several NNC graded coins by diffen sellers a diffrent coin shows and I have not had any problems myself. I always look at the coin in he slab and grade it my own self beforre I make the purchase. I have not found NNC to overgrade on there slabs. I do find people on this rip off report to claim they have bought coins from NNC, that is a out right lie, NNC does not sell coins. NNC sells a grading service of coins. I do have several MS70 coins graded by PCGS that have spots on them thus reducing there value to MS69. This made me want to lean to grade my coins better and I discovered if you by your coins and go by the grade the grading company put on a slab, you can be riped off. You have to use your own eyes to grade and not let someone elce tell you your coin is beautiful. YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT IT @ @ with your eyes                                                                                                                                        

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#4 Consumer Comment

Resale of NNC Coins

AUTHOR: ShrNfr - ()

Actually, Stacks will accept NNC coins for resale in their auctions. They will, however, put their own grading on them in the comments. I recently purchased a 3 coin lot of quarter eagles at one of their auctions. 2 of the 3 were NNC. Stacks (correctly) graded them at around AU55-AU58, cleaned. NNC had them at MS62 of course. I examined the coins and graded them in line with Stacks. I got them cheap enough from Stacks so that I paid a more or less correct price. The person who bought them on eBay or whatever probably got hosed.

A bit of history about Mr. Johnson and eBay. He filed suit against them once upon a time and managed to win it when eBay ws blocking his "grades". They do not let other sellers assign numerical grades, but since he won the suit, his "grading company" can hand them out and eBay won't say boo. Bottom line, though, the grades are grossly inflated on almost all counts in any coins I have seen. On occasions, I have seen a coin accidently graded correctly. It is the exception rather than the rule. I have even managed to make a nice buy or two, but again, that is the exception. I do not say do not buy from this individual, but know what you are getting yourself into. Send the coin back if you do not think it is in line with the price you paid and learn how to grade your own coins. Above all, do not pay much for this gentleman's coins, they are usually not worth it.

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#5 Consumer Comment

Hopeless self-slabber

AUTHOR: lapidary2 - (United Kingdom)

For those of you still pinning your hopes on NNC you should be aware that not only are his grades generally a work of fiction, his knowledge is insufficient for him to avoid grading counterfeits.

Take a look at completed listing number 181063453493 on eBay and you will see a lovely fake graded MS-62.

This individual is a shameless self-slabber and cannot be trusted to grade accurately nor can he be trusted to identify counterfeits.
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#6 Consumer Comment

No Problems with theCoinVault

AUTHOR: Jayare60 - (United States of America)

While some may have had problems with theCoinVault, I have not. I have found the coins in the condition offered to be just that. I have never seen any coins graded by NNC sold by them, only from NGC, PGS, ANACS or IGC. Since raw coins are also sold then by all means watch, listen then make up your mind as to buy or not. Remember one thing about grading companies : each one grades slightly different. Also remember that if it 's too good to be true then think seriously before buying. The choice is yours. I am always comparing prices and condition before buying.
Also, all you people that write reports, where did you go to school? There is way too much misspelled words.
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#7 Consumer Comment

I find that all grading Co. Grade wrong!

AUTHOR: ramtag7 - (United States of America)

I have bought from most, and have found all have graded too high,many times.
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#8 General Comment

Talk About Ugly!

AUTHOR: JWILL - (United States of America)

What do the 60's have to do with it? Why the need for all the name calling? If you hired someone to build you a house and they used very wet concrete in the foundation and your house started to crumble would you say thats what I deserve for not doing it myself?

It seems your premise is against Capitalism! Capitalism is having a difficult time due to so many shamless cheats starting around 2000, in my opinion.

I guess you want to go back to being Hunter/gathers? That sounds good to me.
  
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#9 Consumer Comment

LEARN HOW TO GRADE YOUR OWN COINS STUPID

AUTHOR: jeff - (USA)

IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT MAKE ARE COUNTRY UGLY!! IF YOU HAD A BRAIN YOU WOULD LEARN HOW TO JUDGE A COIN BEFORE BUYING IT?? THERE ARE TO MANY OF YOU AROUND THAT BLAIM EVERYTHING ON SOMEONE ELSE IDIOT! STAND ON YOUR OWN TWO FEET AND BLAIM YOURSELF FOR YOUR STUPID MUSTAKES, NOT A GRADING CO THAT JUST GIVES THERE OPINION OF THE GRADE OF A COIN. NGC NOR PCGS WILL BACK THERE GRADING EITHER. WE HAVE NOTHING BUT MAMPY PAMBY JERKS IN AMERICA ALL FROM AFTER THE LATE 60s ON. GROW UP JERKS THERE ARE NO GUARENTEES IN THIS WORLD, GO PLAY IN THE STOCK MARKET AND SEE HOW YOU DO?
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#10 Consumer Comment

A One Man Band!

AUTHOR: lapidary2 - (United Kingdom)

I have heard tales of reputable TPGs overgrading coins because they were submitted by an individual who gave them lots of business but have yet to see any actual evidence of this practice. I have certainly seen overgraded coins and at the end of the day, the grade is purely an opinion.

I have seen TPGs make a mistake - I bought a graded coin only to discover two small holes in its rim from a mount, a coin that should not have been graded in the first place!

Genuine and reputable TPGs usually have a number of individuals who are capable of expressing a valid opinion about a coin but centsles is a one-man band, a self-slabber.

Apart from his dubious gradings, the possibility of genuine error - through ignorance - is much higher and that is why we see counterfeits graded by him. We even see reproductions - that's fake to you and me - also being slabbed and graded which is not something a genuine TPG would normally countenance.

Of course, with centsles's ignorance, it is possible to buy well but my advice remains to be extremely cautious before buying anything that has been slabbed by so-called NNC.
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#11 General Comment

gripers, and incapable of grading anything

AUTHOR: jeff - (USA)

To your remarks about 3 party graders, know what you are buying, know the grades, get Sheldonds System on grading, don't accuse any grader, you are just asking for a opinion of some idiot that states he knows the grade of coins. You mention NNC they are just a 3rd party grader like Pcgs and Ngc and if you thing NNC is bad you should look at the grading of PCGS and NGC they grade maybe 1-2% of all coins over MS. 65 the scale goes to 70 isn't that a joke!! if you think you got screwed by NNC wait until you get a bunch of PCGS and NGC coins, I have been in coins sinse I was 10 years old, first pennys in 1950, and now in Gem Dollars. PCGS and NGC have thousands of very badly graded coins out in the field. So use your brains if you have one, there is bad GRADING in all the 3rd party graders. I have better graded coins from NNC than both the bigboys, and I can grade as well as any of them, in fact better, I knew all of these guys when they were nothing, JUST FUNKY DEALERS. Any coin you sell, you won't get near what there PRICE GUIDE states, it's buyers beware!!!!!!!!! lol lol lol good luck guys
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#12 Consumer Suggestion

Forget the rant and stick to facts

AUTHOR: lapidary2 - (United Kingdom)

The facts are that Robert Johnson and centsles are one and the same. In other words, the eBay seller is a shameless self-slabber.

When buying a coin, either rely on a reputable third-party grader or take the risk of a raw coin. In my opinion, anyone buying anything from centsles is a fool, if they have read the stories here.

The seller's reputation among the knowledgeable eBay numismatic community is dreadful but eBay will do nothing about the situation, as long as it makes its profits.

Now, moving on to raw coins, once again everyone should take the utmost care. If the image is poor, don't buy the coin. In fact, if you have any reservations pass on the coin and never buy a coin in a series in which you are not knowledgeable.

Good examples would be trade dollars, where every day, fakes appear on eBay and also Chinese coins, as they are now so heavily faked, they are best left only to the experts.

Finally, NEVER buy US coins from Chinese sellers or zero-rated sellers with a poor command of English, who claim to be in locations other than China but are really just Chinese crooks. You will get burned. 
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#13 General Comment

knolageable collector started in 1950

AUTHOR: jeff - (USA)

GOOD MORNING COIN COLLECTORS AND OTHERS, THE WORD COMMON SENSE MEANS THAT IF YOU INGAGE IN ANY COLLECTABLE AREA ANTIQUES,COINS, DOLLS, ANYTHING TO DO WITH SPENDING MONEY FOR IT, THE FIRST THING YOU DO IS TO LEARN, RESERCH, AND KNOW HOW THEY GRADE OR DECIDE THAT A ITEM IS REAL OR FAKE. IF EVERYONE WOULD TAKE THE TIME TO LEARN, INSTEAD OF JUST JUMPING INTO COLLECTING THINGS, YOU WOULDN'T NEED THESE THIRD PARTY IDIOTS THAT DON'T KNOW ANYMORE THAN YOU SHOULD. THEY GO THROUGH A 6 MONTH CORCE TO LEARN HOW TO GRADE A COIN AND THINK THERE THE TOP GUY AT GRADING. EXCUSE ME GUYS, YOU CAN BET ON THIS, IF THE COIN IS 50 TO 200 YEARS OLD THEY HAVE ALL BEEN CLEANED AT SOME POINT, THAT'S FACT. ALSO TO STATE THAT ONE GRADER IS BETTER THAN ANOTHER IS HOG WASH, I CAN LOOK AT PCGS GRADERS AND FIND AS MANY BAD GRADED COINS AS NNC,NGC, OR ANY OF THE REST.

NONE OF THEM ARE PERFECT, AND NON OF THEM PLAY THE GAME STRAIGHT. IF YOU ARE KNOLAGEABLE ON COINS, YOU CAN PRETTY MUCH GRADE YOUR OWN COINS IF YOU ARE HONEST??? HONEST???. IN THE 60S THERE WERE NO GRADERS EXCEPT THE DEALERS AND THE PUBLIC COLLECTORS, THINGS WERE JUST FINE, YOU LOOK AT A COIN YOU JUDGE IT AND YOU BUY IT AND WALK AWAY HAPPY???. THE COINS WERE GRADED AT CIRCULATED UP TO 58 THEN UNCIRCULATED 60-70 GRADES NOW BECAUSE OF THESE 3 RD PARTY GRADERS YOU NEVER SEE A COIN PAST 67 AND ONLY 1/2 % ARE OVER 66 ????? WHAT HAPPENED, THE CONTROLERS OF THE 3 RD PARTY GRADERS HAVE CONTROL?? THEY ALL GRADE POORLY I SEE 66S THAT SHOULD BE 63 AND 63S THAT SHOULD BE 65/66 THAT'S NGC AND PCGS, NNC GRADES AS WELL AS THE REST. GET OFF THESE BUSINESS PEOPLE KNOW HOW TO GRADE A COIN YOURSELF AND IF YOU CAN'T WINE TO SOMEONE THAT CARES. IT'S ALL A GAME GUYS, IN THE END YOU LOOSE MONEY, DID ANYONE TLL YOU THAT, O YOU MIGHT MAKE A FEW BUCKS, BUT IT'S THE LOVE OF THE COINS THAT MATTERS NOT MONEY. THE PAPER YOU SELL THE COINS FOR IS WORTHLESS THAT WHY GOLD HIT 1550 OZ AND SILVER HIT A HIGH OF 48.50. IF YOU BUY A FAKE OR CLEANED COIN THAT'S YOUR FAULT IDIOTS RESERCH AND LEARN FIRST. R.R.
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#14 Consumer Comment

NNC is definitely a scam and I have the proof

AUTHOR: Mark - (United States of America)

One individual has commented in defese of the NNC claiming that the coins he bought are correctly graded. First of all, not all coins need cleaning or exaggeration in grading. Secondly, I was the high bidder on a coin from Saudi Arabia graded 67 before I realized the weight of the coin printed on the holder of the coin was totally off and incorrect. I backed out but someone else was suckered. I filed repeated complaints to eBay regading the issue and the eBay seller (centsles) who strictly sells coins graded by NNC and has repeated complaints regarding the grading of his coins on his feedbacks, but eBay for obvious financial reasons ignores the complaints.  How could a seller who has sold over a 100,000 items only use one company to grade their coins and that the least reputable, NNC?

If anyone doubts my claim I have the picture of the coin with bogus info on it.
I just learned that I can add picture to this report. So I am going to.
The eBay Item number: 380317765807
Seller: centsles
The sale date:


SAUDI ARABIA AH1370 .917 GOLD GUINEA SUPERB GEM UNC

Item condition:
-

Ended:
Feb 22, 201117:49:40 PST

Bid history: 15


NNC is in Florida
Seller also in Florida
I wonder if they are one and the same!

The weight of the coin in question is 0.02355 AGW Krause #36 Guina
The coin holder shows: 0.354 AGW

That should say it all.
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#15 Consumer Comment

Self-slabber

AUTHOR: lapidary2 - (United Kingdom)

National Numismatic Certification sounds very prestigious doesn't it?

Actually, this is the brainchild of one man, Robert Johnson and so the grades are the opinion of one man who trades on eBay as centsles and world coinz. He is nothing more than a self-slabber.

Many of the coins that are slabbed are over-graded and NNC has no credibility whatsoever with experienced and professional collectors and dealers.

If there was a problem with a coin graded by one of the recognised third-party graders, you might expect the possibility of remedial action but what recourse would you have with this self-slabber?

He has a considerable rap sheet on the coin community watch group on eBay for too many stunts pulled to mention.

Here is an interesting link but a bit of Googling will give you more:

http://reviews.ebay.com/NNC-NCGS-and-TRUGRADE-JUNK-coin-grading-services_W0QQugidZ10000000001328446

All in all, do net ever buy an NNC slabbed coin because the risks of over-grading and of the coin being damaged are too great and too easy to conceal behind plastic!

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#16 Author of original report

The rebuttal to they are an OK coin grading service

AUTHOR: Late_bloomer - (USA)

I am sorry but I have to disagree with you on this one big time. Even though I only bought one coin from them, they are an unacceptable coin grading company to me and so many other coin geniuses. Here is the rebuttal to your disagreement. Number 1 - They are not accepted by any of the seven major coin auction houses in America (Heritage, Bowers & Merena  and Superior, etc.). Number 2 - They are not on the two televised coin shows in America (AANTV and the Coin Vault). Number 3 - They are not bought and sold at the bigger coin dealer's (Pinnacle Rarities, Park Avenue numismatics and Legend Numismatics).
Number 4 - They are not accepted by the CAC intercept shield (only two coin grading companies are:NGC and PCGS). Which I personally disagree with. Number 5 - They are not E Bay approved (the big four are:NGC, PCGS, ANACS and ICG). And finally number 6 - The PNG/ICTA survey listed five unacceptable coin grading companies on their last survey (two of them are now out of business (Accugrade of Longwood, Florida and Hallmark of Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada). One of the poor coin grading companies also went out of business about three months ago (Dominion Grading Service of Virginia Beach, Virginia - formerly PCI). They were bought out by David Lawrence Rare Coins in 2008. They even invented the industry's first Visual Population Report and even described their VAM Morgans.
Here are the weaknesses with the coin grading company NNC: 1) No population report period; 2) Poor at attributes/varieties (Breen, VAM's, Faviz Stanton, Sheldon, Overton, CONECA, Snow, Judd, etc.); 3) Terrible non-detailed web site with a coin number look up that does not work right now; 4)Poor holders and tacky labels; 5)Probably does not use ANA grading standards and 6) Cannot do crossovers (coins in other services holders, for the bias and because they might damage the coins). This is true it is right on their website under FAQ's.
I deeply regret buying that one a fore-mentioned Lincoln Cent. You can respond to me if you dare.
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#17 Consumer Comment

NNC Okay in my experience

AUTHOR: Old Time Collector - (United States of America)

I must say that I disagree with the views in this post. I have been a coin collector for many years and have owned countless coins evaluated by National Numismatic Certification, as well as several other grading companies The coins weren't cleaned and the assigned grades were appropriate. In the view of many who know even more about coins than I do, my Morgan Dollars graded by NNC are some of the highest quality pieces in my entire collection.
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