• Report: #118527

Complaint Review: Optionetics

  • Submitted: Wed, November 17, 2004
  • Updated: Wed, July 09, 2014

  • Reported By:Seattle Washington
Optionetics
255 Shoreline Drive, Suite 100 Redwood City, California U.S.A.

Optionetics - George Fontanills - Tom Gentile ripoff Misleading Advertising, Seminar and course materials OK but certain critical information have been (deliberately?) omitted in their advertisements and promises Redwood City California

*Consumer Comment: Get the course free, save thousands

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: How do you feel?

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: OUCH!!!

*Consumer Comment: What I found beneficial about Optionetics.

*Consumer Comment: What I found beneficial about Optionetics.

*Consumer Comment: What I found beneficial about Optionetics.

*Consumer Comment: What I found beneficial about Optionetics.

*Consumer Comment: Optionetics NOT FOR EVERYONE

*Consumer Comment: I am a student with mixed feelings

*Consumer Comment: Many resources to learn how to trade options

*Consumer Comment: My Experience with Optionetics

*Consumer Comment: If it's too good to be true then it generally is

*Consumer Comment: Late into this thread but 2 cents nonetheless

*Consumer Comment: Frank - great stuff!

*Consumer Comment: Frank - great stuff!

*Consumer Comment: Frank - great stuff!

*Consumer Comment: Frank - great stuff!

*Consumer Comment: disgruntled... post a copy of the DVDs on bittorrent :)

*Consumer Suggestion: ALL THE INFORMATION IN THE OPTIONS COURSE IS AVAILABLE FOR FREE ON INTERNET OR IN A LIBRARY

*Consumer Comment: If optionetics is a scam it failed as it works for me

*Consumer Suggestion: origin of some complaints identified

*Consumer Comment: My 2 cents with Optionetics

*REBUTTAL Individual responds: True FACTS

*Consumer Comment: From someone who has bought into it and wishes he hadn't...

*Consumer Comment: Optionetics

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: Lies or Misdeceptions

*Consumer Comment: My experience with Optionetics has been great

*Consumer Comment: Re: Thanks to Simon

*Consumer Comment: George Fontanills Is a Fraud He can't even manage his own Trading Account

*Consumer Comment: Nonsense

*Consumer Comment: GEORGE FONTANILLS SUED BY FIMAT USA

*UPDATE Employee: Inaccurate Information - the truth is:

*UPDATE Employee: Inaccurate Information - the truth is:

*UPDATE Employee: Inaccurate Information - the truth is:

*UPDATE Employee: Inaccurate Information - the truth is:

*Consumer Comment: George Fontanills Should Practice What he and His Company Preach

*Author of original report: To those considering the Optionetics " investment opportunity"

*UPDATE Employee: Thanks Peter

*UPDATE Employee: Thanks Peter

*UPDATE Employee: Thanks Peter

*UPDATE Employee: Thanks Peter

*Consumer Comment: To Optionetics

*Consumer Suggestion: % Returns

*Consumer Comment: Let's cut to the chase

*Consumer Comment: Optionetics Great Company Great People Great Product

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This is rather long. If you wish not to read through it, here's the main point: It's not that they're telling lies. Rather, it's just that certain critical information have been (deliberately?) omitted in their advertisements and promises

First, the good part:

1) The seminars and course materials offered by Optionetics are not bad. In fact, most stock market speculators could probably benefit from them. The information is presented in an easy-to-understand manner, and does deliver on their promise of "trading with controlled risk". Kudos for bringing this quality information to the public.

2) They do honor their refund if you complete the 36 trades in the 6 month period as required. However, please read on for more on this point.

Here comes the bad part:

1) The 36 "trades" required to get the refund - According to their definition, a "trade" is not used in the conventional sense as we know it (buying OR selling an option). It's the buying AND selling altogether. As you can read from the previous complaints, many people were unpleasantly surprised when they learned this.

Their website clarifies this in the guarantee details. But maybe they can make this clearer to the audience at the free "info" seminars.

2) The wonderful testimonials - OK, maybe everything in the testimonials is true (200% return in one month, blah blah blah). But if one reads critically, the following questions should arise:

a) In what period did these gains occur? For instance, in the 1999-2000 period, practically everybody was making that kind of return, without any assistance from a $3000 course.

b) What about the long term records? In other words, what are the average returns using the system? It's highly unlikely that anyone can sustain 300% returns in 6 months (or whatever) for any period longer than a year. Think about it: Even the best investor in history, Warren Buffett, achieved a career average of "only" 24% compounded annually. Can anyone expect these outrageous (> 100%) returns on a regular basis? This question obviously answers itself.

One might argue that this system uses options to get more leverage, and thus the higher returns. If so, shouldn't pros like Buffett use this all the more, and thus be able to achieve higher returns?

c) How much money is needed, in order to earn the 3 times tuition ($9000) within 6 months? Optionetics says that one can start with very little ($50). But do the math, $50 to $9000 in 6 months equals a 18000% return, or 36000% annualized. Note that commissions or taxes have already been omitted. If we assume a 50% annual return, this still requires an initial investment of ($9000 * 2) / 150% = $12000. This is far from starting with very little.

d) What tools are needed in order to work the system? The expensive software programs used by the instructors in the course are NOT included in the course tuition. It'd be hell if one is to search for the trades manually. However, this is not mentioned in the "info" session.

It would be good if Optionetics would clarify the above points in their advertisements. As mentioned earlier, they are not lying, but misleading. Potential customers would do well if they examine the claims critically and not let their greed cloud their judgement.

Simon
Seattle, Washington
U.S.A.

This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 11/17/2004 07:06 PM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Optionetics/Redwood-City-California-94065/Optionetics-George-Fontanills-Tom-Gentile-ripoff-Misleading-Advertising-Seminar-and-118527. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.

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Updates & Rebuttals

#1 Consumer Comment

Get the course free, save thousands

AUTHOR: onelovenation - ()

All I have to say is that trading in any form (FOREX, options, futures, etc) is 20% education, knowledge , and systems. The other 80% is your own personal psychology.

I trade Forex , quite sucessfully I must add. I tied to teach my system to my brother. He understood it very well and could make money as long as I was there to give him assurance when to trade or not. But, as soon as he tried on his own, he failed and lost his entire account. The reason was because of his attitude regarding risk and reward.

I am now getting into options and ran across optionetcs.

I will say this right now: I never pay for systems! Just about everything you would ever want is available in pirated form! If you lookup forex systems on piratebay , you will have many (too many) to choose from. But, it is the individual person that has to follow the system.

Trading is not for everyone! Just like being a doctor is not for everyone (I vomit at the sight of blood) and nither is farming or whatever (I hate the heat)

My best advice is to get a system for free and try it on a demo account. Use thinkorswim for options, they let you paper trade and have even better features (for free) than the optionetics paid site. If you make money on the demo, then open with the smallest amount of money required and trade the smallest lots for a few months. If you make money, then dive in. If not, then you are not out thousands of dollars in training.

Here is the link to get the optionetics video course free!

http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7978984/optionetics_-_options_trading_strategies_-_9__hrs

If it works for you, PAY FOR IT!

 

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#2 UPDATE EX-employee responds

How do you feel?

AUTHOR: A student - (United States of America)

Did your Karma just bite you in the a*s?  
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#3 UPDATE EX-employee responds

OUCH!!!

AUTHOR: A student - (United States of America)

George's PP got cut by a few inches!!! HEE, HEE, HEE!!!
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#4 Consumer Comment

What I found beneficial about Optionetics.

AUTHOR: Student - (U.S.A.)

I have completed several paid Optionetics courses as well as taking free options classes from the options industry people and have read many options books.

The value of optionetics to me was I obtained a very good idea of my risks in the options market on any particular trade and I learned about controlling risks in my stock trades or replacing stock with options in some situations. I wasn't really able to start visualizing the risk/reward graphs of holdings to the point that I could draw them from scratch before Optionetics.

I believe I gained enough dollars using options as insurance on stock owned to pay for the several classes I have taken.

Regarding options trades overall in other uses, I think I pretty much broke even although I would have stretches of wins. I can't say that using fundamental or technicals that I reliably could count on stock to do what I expected in the relatively short term.

They did do a little on money management if I remember correctly on the videos but I do not think it was in depth like Van Tharp and others get into. There really was a lot of material presented and even after multiple viewings I catch nuances I missed the other times or had forgotten.
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#5 Consumer Comment

What I found beneficial about Optionetics.

AUTHOR: Student - (U.S.A.)

I have completed several paid Optionetics courses as well as taking free options classes from the options industry people and have read many options books.

The value of optionetics to me was I obtained a very good idea of my risks in the options market on any particular trade and I learned about controlling risks in my stock trades or replacing stock with options in some situations. I wasn't really able to start visualizing the risk/reward graphs of holdings to the point that I could draw them from scratch before Optionetics.

I believe I gained enough dollars using options as insurance on stock owned to pay for the several classes I have taken.

Regarding options trades overall in other uses, I think I pretty much broke even although I would have stretches of wins. I can't say that using fundamental or technicals that I reliably could count on stock to do what I expected in the relatively short term.

They did do a little on money management if I remember correctly on the videos but I do not think it was in depth like Van Tharp and others get into. There really was a lot of material presented and even after multiple viewings I catch nuances I missed the other times or had forgotten.
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#6 Consumer Comment

What I found beneficial about Optionetics.

AUTHOR: Student - (U.S.A.)

I have completed several paid Optionetics courses as well as taking free options classes from the options industry people and have read many options books.

The value of optionetics to me was I obtained a very good idea of my risks in the options market on any particular trade and I learned about controlling risks in my stock trades or replacing stock with options in some situations. I wasn't really able to start visualizing the risk/reward graphs of holdings to the point that I could draw them from scratch before Optionetics.

I believe I gained enough dollars using options as insurance on stock owned to pay for the several classes I have taken.

Regarding options trades overall in other uses, I think I pretty much broke even although I would have stretches of wins. I can't say that using fundamental or technicals that I reliably could count on stock to do what I expected in the relatively short term.

They did do a little on money management if I remember correctly on the videos but I do not think it was in depth like Van Tharp and others get into. There really was a lot of material presented and even after multiple viewings I catch nuances I missed the other times or had forgotten.
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#7 Consumer Comment

What I found beneficial about Optionetics.

AUTHOR: Student - (U.S.A.)

I have completed several paid Optionetics courses as well as taking free options classes from the options industry people and have read many options books.

The value of optionetics to me was I obtained a very good idea of my risks in the options market on any particular trade and I learned about controlling risks in my stock trades or replacing stock with options in some situations. I wasn't really able to start visualizing the risk/reward graphs of holdings to the point that I could draw them from scratch before Optionetics.

I believe I gained enough dollars using options as insurance on stock owned to pay for the several classes I have taken.

Regarding options trades overall in other uses, I think I pretty much broke even although I would have stretches of wins. I can't say that using fundamental or technicals that I reliably could count on stock to do what I expected in the relatively short term.

They did do a little on money management if I remember correctly on the videos but I do not think it was in depth like Van Tharp and others get into. There really was a lot of material presented and even after multiple viewings I catch nuances I missed the other times or had forgotten.
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#8 Consumer Comment

Optionetics NOT FOR EVERYONE

AUTHOR: Niranchan - (Canada)

Hello guys
Optionetics is a nice educational system ,but this is not for every one . You can not make money just by taking the course . You must have at least 3 years of experience
in trading options. What the course really does is FINE TUNE your trading strategies. I would say this is like a post secondary education ,to understand and apply you must have a high school education already ( which is the 3-4 years experience). This is not for every one , and this is not a basic level course.

1).If you have solid previous experience in trading options/ stocks

2)Some how your strategies are NOT working well and you do not understand why

3) you know how to identify the trend of the particular stock/s (A MUST)

then the course is for you. otherwise do not waste your money.. Learn on the net and open a trial account with thinkorswim or with any brokerage who offer paper trading account. Try to learn as much as for free about TRADING STOCKS first.Then slowly learn about options. The book written by George Fontanill ( Trade option online ) has a lot of info about options which is more than enough for you . you do not have to take his expensive course at all.

Good Luck

NIRANCHAN NALLARETHANAM
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#9 Consumer Comment

I am a student with mixed feelings

AUTHOR: Anarchist - (U.S.A.)

First, let me say that my sister joined Optionetics back around 2004/05. She couldn't understand a lot of the material on the DVDs, so she got me to watch them with her. I tried to help explain it to her. Well, she paid for me to join her. So, we went to about 4 seminars. I understood the concepts well. They do a pretty good job explaining things and I'm grateful to now have this knowledge.

Now for the things I do not like about the company. You pay for the course (for us it was over $5000), but don't expect that to be your only cost. Then they pressed that you *really* should join the OptionsXpress website. One instructor said he wouldn't even think about trading options without it. So, we tagged on another $700 for the website.

Then on another seminar they were completely hyped up on this "new" ProfitSource software that normally costs $3000 but "if you act today it can be yours for only $1999". The instructor was all giddy about how hard it used to be to find good trades and this one does all the work for you. They showed us on the projector how to use it. It did look extremely simple and easy to use. Well, we didn't have much money at the time, so we had to pass on that.

Our trading experience: we had $1700 at the time to do some trades. We picked out the best that we could find on our own and looked particularly close at the top picks in the OptionsXpress email newsletter. We only bought if both of us thought the trade was good. Well, trade after trade, we were getting a little fed up. The real world is a lot different than the classroom. Here's two things I have come to conclude from trial and error: 1. good trades don't get filled if you bid lower than market value, like they always tell you to do. 2. You have to buy in volume. If the buy/sell transaction costs $35, then investing only $100-200 will never make you any money. So, you do actually have to have a decent amount of money to invest and still not have all your eggs in one basket.

After about 25 trades, I gave up. Well over half my options were losers. I don't blame Optionetics for that. However, I never could quite figure out when to sell. Many of the trades started to go south right after buying them. Do I sell the next day and take a little loss and lose the high transaction fee? Do I hold on to it and hope it comes back?

Anyways, the one thing that kept my trading experience from being a total disaster was one trade that made me about $500. In the end with all losses, profits, and fees, out $1700 end up being about $800. Factor in close to $6000 for Optionetics, I would have to say it didn't work for me.

I really would have liked to have tried the ProfitSource software. Maybe it would have helped. Oh, and after the first year, you have to start paying a subscription fee to keep using the software. It would have been nice if they gave a 30 trial or something. If I'm not mistaken, I think you have 30 days to get your money back, but that means you have to buy it first and after paying for Optionetics, we didn't have enough to buy it.

But while you are in class, they really get you hyped up and feeling like you can't go wrong or make a mistake. Or if something does goes wrong, you losses will be cut to almost nothing. I didn't find that to be the case. I believe you can make money with it. But you also need money for all the classes, software and subscriptions. And don't forget to have some money left over to invest. We would not have signed up for any of this if we knew all that we know now.

I'm not bitter about any of it. It just ended up costing so much more than what my sister originally signed up for. And every seminar did teach you new information or trading ideas, but that was just to get you to come to what was always another sales pitch for some other seminar or product that costs a few grand.
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#10 Consumer Comment

Many resources to learn how to trade options

AUTHOR: Juan - (U.S.A.)

In 2002 and 2003 I attended the basic and advanced course that Optionetics offers. There is no question that the information offered is legitimate. It is shown in an easy to understand manner and once you come out of the courses you DO have the basics to trade options. So in that sense it is not a rip off. You paid for education, and you got it.

The question to me is, would you be able to trade successfully as you come out of the courses? probably not. you require much persistence to stay in the game long enough to make consistent gains. Learning about a certain strategy, say a bull call spread, is not enough to make you a successful trader, you must learn when that strategy is adequate or potentially profitable. Learnings how to contact your broker and place an order does not guarantee success.

I find it problematic that Optionetics does not offer a record of success on their publications or even on the trades that they suggest in their seminars. In fact, if you call them to know what to do with the very trades that they recommend, they quickly dismiss you by saying they do not offer trading advice, which is confusing and ironic.

I fault myself and anyone who took their offer for not asking: what is the success rate of their trades and do they have third party verification to support their claims. Since they don't have that, they are simply teaching what has already been published about options since their creation in the 1070's. In fact there is a lot more to know about options than what Optionetics offers. You do not come out of the courses prepared to make a fortune.

The good thing is that after the Optionetics courses, I was motivated to make it as a trader and I did. I do use the Platinum web site to this day, I think it is the best out there, although The Think or Swim platform offers many of the Platinum features for free.

I found my way and succeeded on creating my own highly and consistently profitable trading approach, which I share for free in my own blog. Optionetics was in some ways a help, in some ways a hindrance. In the end, I think it was all entirely up to me. Those that go to the Optionetics courses thinking that they will be handed the recipe for success will be very disappointed. If I had the choice, would I do it again? probably yes, since I have made many times over the price I paid for the course. However, I have also paid thousands for the McMillan Mentoring program and DVD's which far exceeds the quality and completeness of the material that Optionetics offers. It is all part of my education.

Anyone here would be well served by not expecting too much of the Optionetics courses, and read as many books on options as possible, before spending thousands of dollars in materials and seminars, not only from Optionetics, but from anyone.

Juan Sarmiento
www.stockoftheday.blogspot.com
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#11 Consumer Comment

My Experience with Optionetics

AUTHOR: Clive Hunt - (Australia)

I thought I'd add my experience of Optionetics. I have done most of their courses and spent about AUS$20,000 doing the beginning course, ICT, advanced course, been to OASIS in 2005 (I think!) and bought all their software. I have also joined trading groups in my city as well, so I know quite a few Optionetic student's experience of trading. I have not met one student who has made money from trading, from the course, with a consistent good annual rate of return.

While I appreciate there maybe some students who do make money from trading for a living, they would be very rare like <5% of the people who do the course. In fact it is interesting Optionetics has never researched the success of their thousands of students. If they have, it is obviously not a good figure for marketing! My trading account went down from $10,000 to about $1,500 over a couple of years.

I did ask for a refund for money I paid for their platinum website (around a month after I paid) which I didn't use in the last year of my trading options and they flatly refused to refund me the money which was around AUS$900 from memory. I wasn't happy about that and went right up to their CEO, but he gave me no refund. So I suggest you be very careful before handing over your money.

The inherent problem with options, is it is complex with many variables, such as time decay, volatility, and the market maker makes at least 5% and more likely 10%, then you pay commissions, so you have to make around 10% to break even! My suggestion is to trade futures electronically, with the emini's, where you have none of these problems.
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#12 Consumer Comment

If it's too good to be true then it generally is

AUTHOR: Mel - (U.S.A.)

I agree with Simon. The numbers don't add up. It is an easy matter to double up on a $100 investment but a much more significant task to double up on a $1,000,000 investment. You just can't keep up a 200% rate of return. I have a theory or a axiom if you please that goes like this. If you think something is not quiet right extrapolate it out to the absurd and see if it still makes sense. Simon did the complete calculations for you with 250% and we got 93Billion is 15 years. What would happen if you keep it up for another 15 years, how much would you have, well think about it, that is only 30 years of investing, in either a good market or bad market as they said. The answer is more money than there exists in the entire world and probaly some other worlds as well. It is (at 200% rate of return)1,334,000,000,000,000,000. That is 1 million 340 thousand billion dollars. This number proves the power of compounding, not that you will get a 200% rate of return. Of course at 250% rate of return it is even greater, 13,470,000,000,000,000,000 or ten times more. Look at it this way if you had to spend this much money in your life time and you lived to be 100 after you earned this amout then you would have to spend $36,547 Billion every day, no vacations, and that is with the smaller number. Good luck, With the larger number is would be $369,041 Billion per day. You would defintely be better than Warren Buffett. Folks this is too good to be true. Also, if it was that easy to do this why aren't there more warren buffetts out there right now. Investing is hard work, I know, and cornering the capital in the world is not doable.
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#13 Consumer Comment

Late into this thread but 2 cents nonetheless

AUTHOR: Michael - (U.S.A.)

To all concerned on this post;

I may be a little late (or a LOT, rather) in submitting this dialog, (as I see that this has been going on for quite a while), but I felt compelled to do so because I felt that I had something important to contribute.

Keep in mind that I am someone who NEVER posts my opinion on sites like these. I quietly read them and use the info presented to educate myself about whatever it is I am researching. I decided to make my first appearance here.

I am a blackjack dealer in Las Vegas, and I meet tens of thousands of different people every year from every possible walk of life that you can imagine, and some you probably can't. One of the standard questions I ask to get the conversation going on a game is: "What do you do for a living?"

Tonight at work I dealt to two young men who were friends. One was a student, and the other had just turned 21 and was celebrating his birthday in Las Vegas. The 21 year old said he traded Optionetics.

I had never heard of Optionetics specifically, but I am aware of programs like it enough to be at least SOMEWHAT familiar with what it is all about.

Since I seem to be carrying on a little, let me cut to the chase. I asked him if he was making any money. His response was that after attending the instruction course(s), he traded on paper for a while. Then he started with a real account and $10,000 which he borrowed from his father.

He said that he has been trading for two months and so far he has paid back his father the $10k loan, and has another $10k to work with. I am no financial guru or anything, but 100% in two months sounds pretty good to me.

I am a sole breadwinner for a family of myself, a wife, 3 children, and 3 dogs. I have a mortgage, a car payment, and every other normal bill that most people have. I make between $32k and $35k a year as a blackjack dealer, (before taxes), and I am always on the lookout for something better or supplemental.

When this boy talked about Optionetics, I listened. I came home and looked it up on Google. My first stop (even before their own website) has been here.

After everything that has been said, my logical mind tells me that Optionetics is NOT a bad deal, and I am going to consider looking into it further.

I am not an employee, a customer, or anything else affiliated with Optionetics. I am just a bystander giving my 2 cents worth.
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#14 Consumer Comment

Frank - great stuff!

AUTHOR: Therightway - (U.S.A.)

I realize you wrote this in February but maybe you will get this anyway.

Perhaps we could team up and get your product SOLD. Would it be possible to control it via a web interface where people would have to log-in to use it? These days, if you can't protect it, you can't keep profiting from it for long before someone rips off your code and sells their own version.

I give you my word that I do not work for Optionetics and am not partnered with them in any way. I do however, intend on spending money with them.

I could really relate to what you were saying. I have worked in the IT industry for years and constantly come up against it when trying to implement innovative solutions. Companies tend to take the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude. I tend to take the "if you don't fix it, your competitor will" attitude.

I know folks who are making real money with Optionetics but I think you have to be "smart" before spending capital whether on training or in the market. Optionetics does appear to have a system that really works.

That said, the Optionetics DVDs and books fall into one (1) category Training. Tools on the other hand, make up another. Trading publications, software (thiers and those of thier partners), website access, and a myriad of other valuable things make up the Tools category. Personally, I think if Optionetics were to provide training for FREE and focus on providing access to the VERY BEST TOOLS, people would be more successfull and would be able to PAY MORE "AS" THEY PROGRESSED. That approach as opposed to paying so much just to get started seems like common sense to me. Word of mouth sells the product this way creates much less undesired press for what "some" understandably view as empty promises. There is a severe learning curve and they need to make no appologies for that! They have a fantasic system. Let's just be honest with folks about what it takes to be a successfull trader and provide them everything they really need to get started.

Mr. Software - I agree with you and I would love to partner with you! I have an innovative idea for a website that I think might fit hand-in-hand with your product. I own the domain and am ready to discuss it's future development.

One of the first things I noticed about Optionetics is that the "risk graph" the techings are based on isn't telling you everything and without that, you can't REALLY get an accurate picture at a glance. I think that is where you are headed, is that correct?
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#15 Consumer Comment

Frank - great stuff!

AUTHOR: Therightway - (U.S.A.)

I realize you wrote this in February but maybe you will get this anyway.

Perhaps we could team up and get your product SOLD. Would it be possible to control it via a web interface where people would have to log-in to use it? These days, if you can't protect it, you can't keep profiting from it for long before someone rips off your code and sells their own version.

I give you my word that I do not work for Optionetics and am not partnered with them in any way. I do however, intend on spending money with them.

I could really relate to what you were saying. I have worked in the IT industry for years and constantly come up against it when trying to implement innovative solutions. Companies tend to take the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude. I tend to take the "if you don't fix it, your competitor will" attitude.

I know folks who are making real money with Optionetics but I think you have to be "smart" before spending capital whether on training or in the market. Optionetics does appear to have a system that really works.

That said, the Optionetics DVDs and books fall into one (1) category Training. Tools on the other hand, make up another. Trading publications, software (thiers and those of thier partners), website access, and a myriad of other valuable things make up the Tools category. Personally, I think if Optionetics were to provide training for FREE and focus on providing access to the VERY BEST TOOLS, people would be more successfull and would be able to PAY MORE "AS" THEY PROGRESSED. That approach as opposed to paying so much just to get started seems like common sense to me. Word of mouth sells the product this way creates much less undesired press for what "some" understandably view as empty promises. There is a severe learning curve and they need to make no appologies for that! They have a fantasic system. Let's just be honest with folks about what it takes to be a successfull trader and provide them everything they really need to get started.

Mr. Software - I agree with you and I would love to partner with you! I have an innovative idea for a website that I think might fit hand-in-hand with your product. I own the domain and am ready to discuss it's future development.

One of the first things I noticed about Optionetics is that the "risk graph" the techings are based on isn't telling you everything and without that, you can't REALLY get an accurate picture at a glance. I think that is where you are headed, is that correct?
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#16 Consumer Comment

Frank - great stuff!

AUTHOR: Therightway - (U.S.A.)

I realize you wrote this in February but maybe you will get this anyway.

Perhaps we could team up and get your product SOLD. Would it be possible to control it via a web interface where people would have to log-in to use it? These days, if you can't protect it, you can't keep profiting from it for long before someone rips off your code and sells their own version.

I give you my word that I do not work for Optionetics and am not partnered with them in any way. I do however, intend on spending money with them.

I could really relate to what you were saying. I have worked in the IT industry for years and constantly come up against it when trying to implement innovative solutions. Companies tend to take the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude. I tend to take the "if you don't fix it, your competitor will" attitude.

I know folks who are making real money with Optionetics but I think you have to be "smart" before spending capital whether on training or in the market. Optionetics does appear to have a system that really works.

That said, the Optionetics DVDs and books fall into one (1) category Training. Tools on the other hand, make up another. Trading publications, software (thiers and those of thier partners), website access, and a myriad of other valuable things make up the Tools category. Personally, I think if Optionetics were to provide training for FREE and focus on providing access to the VERY BEST TOOLS, people would be more successfull and would be able to PAY MORE "AS" THEY PROGRESSED. That approach as opposed to paying so much just to get started seems like common sense to me. Word of mouth sells the product this way creates much less undesired press for what "some" understandably view as empty promises. There is a severe learning curve and they need to make no appologies for that! They have a fantasic system. Let's just be honest with folks about what it takes to be a successfull trader and provide them everything they really need to get started.

Mr. Software - I agree with you and I would love to partner with you! I have an innovative idea for a website that I think might fit hand-in-hand with your product. I own the domain and am ready to discuss it's future development.

One of the first things I noticed about Optionetics is that the "risk graph" the techings are based on isn't telling you everything and without that, you can't REALLY get an accurate picture at a glance. I think that is where you are headed, is that correct?
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#17 Consumer Comment

Frank - great stuff!

AUTHOR: Therightway - (U.S.A.)

I realize you wrote this in February but maybe you will get this anyway.

Perhaps we could team up and get your product SOLD. Would it be possible to control it via a web interface where people would have to log-in to use it? These days, if you can't protect it, you can't keep profiting from it for long before someone rips off your code and sells their own version.

I give you my word that I do not work for Optionetics and am not partnered with them in any way. I do however, intend on spending money with them.

I could really relate to what you were saying. I have worked in the IT industry for years and constantly come up against it when trying to implement innovative solutions. Companies tend to take the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude. I tend to take the "if you don't fix it, your competitor will" attitude.

I know folks who are making real money with Optionetics but I think you have to be "smart" before spending capital whether on training or in the market. Optionetics does appear to have a system that really works.

That said, the Optionetics DVDs and books fall into one (1) category Training. Tools on the other hand, make up another. Trading publications, software (thiers and those of thier partners), website access, and a myriad of other valuable things make up the Tools category. Personally, I think if Optionetics were to provide training for FREE and focus on providing access to the VERY BEST TOOLS, people would be more successfull and would be able to PAY MORE "AS" THEY PROGRESSED. That approach as opposed to paying so much just to get started seems like common sense to me. Word of mouth sells the product this way creates much less undesired press for what "some" understandably view as empty promises. There is a severe learning curve and they need to make no appologies for that! They have a fantasic system. Let's just be honest with folks about what it takes to be a successfull trader and provide them everything they really need to get started.

Mr. Software - I agree with you and I would love to partner with you! I have an innovative idea for a website that I think might fit hand-in-hand with your product. I own the domain and am ready to discuss it's future development.

One of the first things I noticed about Optionetics is that the "risk graph" the techings are based on isn't telling you everything and without that, you can't REALLY get an accurate picture at a glance. I think that is where you are headed, is that correct?
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#18 Consumer Comment

disgruntled... post a copy of the DVDs on bittorrent :)

AUTHOR: Ripoffmagician - (U.S.A.)

I personally would like to see one of those disguntled traders put a copy up on bittorrent (here is the wiki on what this wildly popular sharing system is all about (((ROR REDACTED LINK FOR SECURITY PURPOSES))). If someone posted the learning software on DVD (also sold on eBay) that would be fantastic!

CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.
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#19 Consumer Suggestion

ALL THE INFORMATION IN THE OPTIONS COURSE IS AVAILABLE FOR FREE ON INTERNET OR IN A LIBRARY

AUTHOR: Ed - (U.S.A.)

hI:
I have 3 degrees in finance and still have not made any money in options!( I have never purchased an options contract). I trade stocks.

So I went to an Optionnetics seminar and was amazed to see people paying $3000, for what they
could get for free in the library and on the internet.

1) George Fomtanels has written a good book
on options theory that contains the same information that they present in the seminar.
I read the book for free fron the ny public library.

2)yahoo finance has a free online course
from optionnerics.

3) The CBOE.com options exchange has a free
options course online.(free)and software tools.

4) fidelity has a good active trader order
system and online course (free) and software.

5) CBOE and fidelity both have FREE PRACTICE
OPTIONS ACCOUNTS.(you do not use real money)

6) Many other websites and brokers have free
online courses and free practice accounts.

All the information in the optionnetics course is
in the library or online. It all takes time to
learn trading and HEDGING strategies.

DO NOT USE REAL MONEY WHILE YOU ARE LEARNING
TO TRADE OPTIONS OR STOCKS. USE PRACTICE ACCOUNTS. LEARN FIRST THEN TRADE FOR REAL.

6) I have 3 degrees in finance and all my teachers said the same about options : "stay away from options" just buy stocks." I wish I could get refunds for my $60,000 in student loans for my incomplete finance education.

Colleges do not teach trading or technical
analysis, they teach fundamental analysis.
(I write my own investment computer programs
using financial and statistical theory,
which is now called financial engineering or
quantative finance or financial economics by
my clients.)

I would never risk any money on a new strategy
or program without first experimenting and testing the theory: NOTHING IS GURANTEED TO WORK AND USUALLY NEEDS TESTING AND REVISING.

So learn for FREE AND PRACTICE TRADING FOR FREE
BEFORE YOU RISK YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY.

THANKS,
BILL
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#20 Consumer Comment

If optionetics is a scam it failed as it works for me

AUTHOR: Don - (Australia)

I am a student of optionetics. I attended the 2 hour intro session and then the 2 day course. I do not know George Fontanills, have never met him nor stood within the same country as him (I dont think he has been to Australia and I havent been to the USA). I dont personally know anyone employed by optionetics. AND who cares?

I dont care what George Fontanills does in his private life, if he has or hasent been taken to court, has many cars blah, blah, blah - what I can say is that optionetics works for those that apply the one thing that optionetics or any of their software can't sell you and that is basic common sense!

It works as I have done it and still doing it. The problem is that anyone can pay X$ to attend the course but do they understand it. Optionetics offer that much help after the course its amazing - ask a question - get an answer. Are their seminar presenters professional speakers? well.. I have seen them/heard them and take it from me they dont actually speak that well. They stumble with their words and mispronounce alot but what comes out of their mouths is gold.

George could go and do something wrong or bad right now in relation to anything in this world. How would that impact on the students that are making money following the optionetics rules - it wont and never will. The optionetics system works regardless of anything George has done (obviously excluding the creation of optionetics itself) or indeed may do. I dont have to know anything about, be infulenced by or care at all about Isaac Newton to feel the impact of gravity!

So where are the credibility issues here - with George (maybe, maybe not, as I said I dont know him or much about him at all) or optionetics? I can tell you it is not with optionetics and very much doubt it is with George either.
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#21 Consumer Suggestion

origin of some complaints identified

AUTHOR: Frank - (Australia)

Optionetics is clearly selling the dream of successful trading. I am not a student because my knowledge of and interest in options is beyond the level Optionetics can provide. However I studied the services of Optionetics, and I found that as far as the level of education is concerned they are doing an exceptionally good job in a very difficult field. In spite of that, the success rate of their students is greatly limited by a technological factor most people are unaware of. Optionetics ought to be aware of this factor, and should have addressed it long ago.

I am an option trader who lost a lot of money in spite of having read every book there was before I started trading. I identified that my risk management was non-existent. As a frustrated mathematician I wrote a program that might turn out to be the new standard for financial strategy modelling.

To create this piece of software I had to dig really deep, and I discovered that for risk management nothing substitutes the good old Monte Carlo simulation. The problem is that you need to have a full blown simulation (including margin forecast) for each day, for each possible price of the underlying instrument, and for each possible IMPLIED VOLATILITY scenario throughout the life of your strategy. If you have short positions of American style options, you have to consider early exercise as well.

This is not only laborius to calculate, but the calculations yield millions of numbers that one should fully understand and interpret before trading. Without going through this number crunching, and most of all without comprehending the results, you have no understanding of your risk. Trading without full risk awareness is gambling. This element of gambling branded options risky, and this is why students - especially the ones who want to use Optionetics' strategies as a cook-book recipe - get frustrated.

Option traders and educators alike have been suffering the insufficency of the technology available.

I believe that all Optionetics is missing, is the provision of some sort of protection that would prevent students from losing money after they completed a course. Trading at present is a probability game. A risk management system that is not based on probabilities could be a rock solid insurance against the "unexpected".

Optionetics, the company that claims to be the leader in options education should have identified this technological vacuum, and should have spent some R&D Dollars on developing a solution. I would have paid any amount for such a solution instead of spending 6 years full time on developing one. (Yes it became an obsession, I know.)

I contacted Tony Clemendor at Optionetics 3 times in 2005 trying to introduce him the program that could save millions to traders and eliminate most complaints against Optionetics. He did not even look at my e-mails. For the fourth time I managed to get an answer in which he rejected my software without looking at it, and without visiting my web site. To date he does not know what his company and his students are missing out on.

A lot of Optionetics' marketing money could be saved (and perhaps spent on R&D) if issues adversely affecting the satisfaction rate of students would be addressed.

A little change of attitude could make a lot of difference. Just because a business model seems to work, it does not mean that it cannot be improved. In this case it is a social responsibility issue as well.

Thanks for reading
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#22 Consumer Comment

My 2 cents with Optionetics

AUTHOR: G - (U.S.A.)

1) I am/was a student paid $ 3000 for the basic seminar and $ 3000 for an ict seminar

2) Never made money in Options 30% good trades 70% bad trades

3) Optionetics is as good and as bad as you make it, in my case it was good because I lost much more than $ 6000 in the market, worst case scenario you get a good education


4) they are misleading only because they have such an optimistic view on how rich you can get. Can you make money do well and trade with your laptop from an isolated nice beach, sure you can ! It is easy as they make it sound ? No way! Most people at the seminars will be disappointed of how the real world on option is.

5) No need to blame or to ask George about his personal life it is his biz. If you want an education he is one of the best teacher around if not the best, and yes he makes money with seminars that's what he does, but why are you surprised ?

If you can make money in options would you really have the time to teach it ? No ! The only exception is when you would be working in a financial firm and you get some slave/helper and as he does everything you tell him yet he has a great chance to learn ok? Unfortunately that is a very lucky and rare situation.

If you go to Optionetics you will most likely find teachers and some teachers/traders but all of them are in the first place people with excellent communicating skills, they are teachers and they teach at seminars.

5) If George suggested a trade in his newsletters and it didn't go well do not blame him he does not know the future he is only trying to help, that's all he does. If you really knew the future would you write a newsletter for the rest of the world or would you go ahead and make money ?

6) Optionetics called me at the end of Jan 07 with an " amazing program" for $ 8000 you can speak 50 min each week with an expert about options he will teach you everything inside out about options and how to use the software, also as you are about to place your trade you can call the experts on a special hotline so that they can guide you. All for 15 months Very exciting isn't it ? Well when I asked to see the credentials of the " experts" they were not available for whatever reason. At that point I did not enroll in this amazing prgram.

Does it mean optionetics is bad ? Not at all, their first job is to teach, so be f^%$#! realistic about it and look at them as mentors/teachers if you can do better yourself stop blaming others and just do it yourself !

I would reccomend Optionetics to anyone who wants to learn however be ready to invest a great deal of time and money and take the very optimistic 2 day seminar with a grain of salt.

Yes they are out to sell you seminars and tools it is what they do, again, the company is great in providing an education however do not ask for their record because they won't give it to you.

That's how it is and how it should be.

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#23 REBUTTAL Individual responds

True FACTS

AUTHOR: George - (U.S.A.)

To Everyone Interested : Here are the TRUE Facts :

Fact 1 : FIMAT and I have resolved our differences

Fact 2 : I was the Principal of the American Stock Exchange company that located and reported the fraud against the individual who was the issue. He was jailed and I decided to discontinue the floor operations. Once again, another misstatement.

Fact 3 : The problems with websites such as this is that anyone can say anything they want whether it is true or not without repercussions since they are anonymous. I am a big fan of Free Speech, however, if someone has something to say make them accountable. Anonymous postings have no accountability. So show me who you are and then we can dance. Post your real name and contact information. Don't hide if you are correct.

Fact 4 : Optionetics has taught tens of thousands of traders worldwide. You can't make everyone happy no matter how hard you try.

Fact 5 : If you have any questions regarding these postings, I may be reached through Optionetics.

I hope people reading this will see my point. I can say I was the first man to walk on the moon and post it. Does it mean it is accurate ? Of course not !

This is a waste of time when dealing with anonymous individuals. Make yourself known and then we can discuss face to face who is correct. I would be happy to debate any of these claims with a real person and not a "ghost". That is how a debate is done.

No hiding on my part. I just spend my time on more productive matters.

Sincerely,

George
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#24 Consumer Comment

From someone who has bought into it and wishes he hadn't...

AUTHOR: Jonathan - (U.S.A.)

I can tell you right now that I bought into Optionetics, and am on the threshold of wishing I hadn't.

Don't get me wrong. I was not afraid to do this, despite it being such a risk technically. I had been interested in this stuff for a while and almost bought into Trade Secrets (which is now out of business).

It really is an enlightening course on a lot of things. However, they wait until the afternoon (after the first money-back guarantee has expired) to explain that you need to spend thousands of dollars MORE in order to really benefit from it. (Yes, the computer program that can apparently help you better, and that they talk about at the free seminar, costs an ADDITIONAL $3000)

Again, don't get we wrong, I would be willing to buy into this stuff if I had enough money to do so and if I actually made enough capital from my initial options trading. I currently have 5 spreads going, and NONE of them are doing anything. Before you wonder if I bought the wrong ones, these were recommendations from instructors at the initial seminars, and at least one of them was from GEORGE'S personal newsletter...ONE OF HIS OWN RECOMMENDATIONS! When I went to a re-take of the course, I gave them the suggestion from George and it wasn't even evaluated. They claimed it was one of those that "wasn't doing anything". How nice! Also, day two has been proven to be virtually useless to newbies, because all they discuss is stuff that costs more to buy.

I got laid off soon after I took the course, and that $3500 initial investment would be better served in my bank acount where it came from. I just know that, whether I ever get the $3500 back or not under any circumstances, that I am NEVER going to do ANYTHING like this AGAIN!

BTW This seems a bit choppy, and I am willing to elaborate a little more if necessary.
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#25 Consumer Comment

Optionetics

AUTHOR: J - (U.S.A.)

Is there anyone who has cross reference facial photos I can cut and paste of Fontanelli and others in this company, which appears to have a clone called Better Trades???????
Also need all direct links you have to other forums which me and others can post on....Not enough of the general public knows about Ripoff Report. Ripoff Report upsets many scam outfits, as apparently they are sending the "post a positive rebuttal" via shills or brown-nosers......Also using the familiar "consumer doesn't know what they are talking about" approach....

Thanks,
J. Beskin
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#26 UPDATE EX-employee responds

Lies or Misdeceptions

AUTHOR: John - (U.S.A.)

Find some of these comments humorous on both sides - Michael of Chitown and d**k from Optionetics. It's true and common sense that a genuine professsional trader would NOT have the time to teach a course on a regular basis and all over the world but I did hear George Soros and Julian Robertson are considering it (it's a lame attempt at a sarcastic joke so chill, down boy).

However that does not mean that educational content during the various seminars offered by Optionetics is entirely a rip-off. Some can argue that a Yale education at $50k per year is a rip-off as well especially since one of its admitted students is an ex-Taliban spokesman who encouraged 9/11. Sorry I digress. My point is there is some educational merit in Fontanills' classes. But is it worth the money?? Are unethical if not borderline illegal tactics used in getting and keeping students? Are any of the claims substantiated? IMHO, answers are no, yes, and are you kidding me?!

I am certain a state attorney general (Spitzer, Lockyer or Blumenthal) or even the SEC are investigating Optionetics right now.

Optionetics will most likely respond by demanding what is unethical or illegal? And thye should. Optionetics provided customer information (such as names, addresses, email and phone numbers) to another party that was unaffilated with them. I know that Optionetics provided the customer data for a fee and then solicited their customers by offering a related service. It lasted almost 2 years before i guess customer(s) complained louldly to d**k to stop "selling our info to 3rd parties!!" Have hunderds of pages, in computer database to this day of thousands of Optionetics customers. He has denied this both verbally and in writing. This is an outright LIE!! And definitely unethical with idenity theft a major issue. May be illegal in certain states too. The other borderline illegality is the fraudulent advertising Optionetics engages in. Also, the instructors and George himself are trading stocks and options in front of the public and encouraging them to without any licenses. Also take a look at their subscription letters - all without securities licenses. Definitely borderline illegal if not fraudulent.

Also have you noticed at seminars, no one is allowed to record by tape or digital? The last I checked, none of the seminars are in Beijing, Havana or Tehran where that's standard practice. In a free, capitalistic society - isnt that what george is ultimately teaching, to make money in the markets - ANYONE should be allowed to record a session for his/her own use. I know at real estate/scam time share meetings they prohibit recording as well. Just more to chew on
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#27 Consumer Comment

My experience with Optionetics has been great

AUTHOR: Max - (U.S.A.)

I read these posts and it appears obvious that these folks are not even customers. I am.

I have been a student for several years and have met Mr. Fontanills personally on a number of occasions. He has traded live with the class and his teaching has positively influenced my trading profits.

At the seminar I met many students happy with the process and at OASIS 2000 people from all over the world were very vocal with their thanks.

The life time teachings for free once you have paid I have used over and over to learn new ideas and trade with the instructors.

Ryan, people post and say negative things with many agendas. Some love to see the fires burn, maybe the ex-wife that George talked about once, perhaps a competitor trying to getting stronger by trash talking Optionetics. I don't know but that is the power of the internet - people saying whatever they want and sounding authoritive.

I have enjoyed Optionetics and learned some amazing ideas that have translated into money. I find the company and it's staff try hard to get it right with great customer service. Now Optionetics does involve some work on your part but they are always there to help out. The 20 odd strategies are like trading ideas that you have to learn to apply when the time is right.

I am not an employee or connected with the company.
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#28 Consumer Comment

Re: Thanks to Simon

AUTHOR: Ryan - (U.S.A.)

Thanks to Simon's information, my wife and I decided not to take course. Seems like there's too many gray areas about Optionetic's creditibilty. If it was a such a great course and a company, why would someone go to great length to warn consumers about the company. We will just stick with Charles Schwab. Like my mother use to say, "If it sounds too good to be true, it's not true". All those poor people who'll be attending the "Free Seminar" could only see this page.
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#29 Consumer Comment

George Fontanills Is a Fraud He can't even manage his own Trading Account

AUTHOR: Michael - (U.S.A.)

In response to Peter AKA Richard, I don't know what your reference to the ex-wife issue is all about. I have never attended an Optionetics seminar, although, I have attended the free work shop and would not waste my money. They feed you a lot of crap and don't even back it up. I do know individuals who have taken the initial course and they feel they were ripped off. You can't even compare his seminars to a getting a degree much less a PHD.

I have some connections and know individuals who have heard and are aware of the law suit (as we all know that news these days travel much faster than before) and I did some research and that is how I found the information on the law suit.

Another point in fact is that Mr. Fontanills' claims that he made his money in real estate before starting these seminars (where are the real estate records,I couldn't find any prior to '93)? Another empty claim. Also, instead of blabbing about things that I know nothing about and have nothing to do with his business ethics, stick to the point of my last entry. How can Mr. Fontanills give seminars on trading options and managing money when he can't even manage his own trading account. It's obvious that he makes the bulk of his money on these seminars just as all of the other companies that market this type of crap. Don't only look at my entries,there are many others that fit my description. You say that you are not an employee so what is the reference to the ex-wife issue? Do you happen to know something personlly about Mr. Fontanills? Obviously you do, as you just gave away that you know know something about his personal business. What do you know about FIMAT vs. Fontanills/Pro-vest Capital? It's obvious you must be affiliated with the company. Maybe that's why you scope this site just as Russ Whitney's employees get paid to go on the internet and write favorable things about his company (which is another scam). He's another one that claims so much and it's all crap.

For those of you who happen to read this entry, it's too bad that companies like this get away with charging so much money for crap. Eliot Spitzer should start looking into these companies practices' and investigate their claims (which I believe are all unsubstantiated). These companies make money selling dreams of financial independece when in fact it's the fools who pay for individuals like Mr. Fontanills' finacial freedom. You don't hear claims from Optionetics' students or instructors that they just purchased a Lamborghini or Bently after taking their courses. I have yet to see those claims. How about you Peter? Since you claim to have received a PHD from his seminars have you purchased your Lamborghini yet? Keep me informed. Remember, don't just claim it, back it up with evidence, however, I won't hold my breath for any.
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#30 Consumer Comment

Nonsense

AUTHOR: Peter - (U.S.A.)

Mr.or Mrs. Chicago:

Reading your response I fear you give the game away as you are far too anxious to dig up dirt on Mr. Fontanills. You really have no complaint but just want to try and drag his name into your negative world.

This is your world but please leave me out of it. I posted as an Optionetics student disagreeing with the statements and offering another prospective. Your response was that I must be a scam myself. Then that I am an Optionetics employee.

I am not connected with Optionetics, do not work for them and you try to attack me just because I say something positive. That's sad. I am just a student, satisfied customer and advocate of Optionetics.

Your behaving like an ex-wife with all this desire to raise unrelated matters. In fact your so called knowledge of facts makes me question whether you really are that person ... the infamous ex-wife that can't move on with her life. I sat next to you in a Boston seminar and overheard your conversation. But that's your world not mine so I will leave that one alone. None of my business if you want to spend your life chasing ghosts.

Anyway, I think Optionetics a great organization that has helped my trading. Mr. Fontanills, who I spent last week with in Las Vegas, is an amazing trader. Who cares he collects cars, has a lawsuit, sells a software company - all I care about is him teaching me how to trade. If you were an Optionetics student he talks openly about his role in the company and it is different to how you describe things. But again that's your world - an anxiety to make everyone a bad person, everything not to work and just a reflection of how bad your life must be.

I can speak from personal perspective that the Optionetics crew care about students and their success. The variety of courses all advance your trading just like a degree course leads to a masters and then a PHD. I know the very scope of these Boards is to complain hence the title of them but I just can't ignore a great product be dragged down by anonymous posters.

Yes, Yes I know I too must be everything you claim Mrs. Chicago.

Thanks for reading.
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#31 Consumer Comment

GEORGE FONTANILLS SUED BY FIMAT USA

AUTHOR: Michael - (U.S.A.)

In response to Richard AKA Peter from Los Angeles. I don't know what Richard is talking about when he states that the case was dismissed, but that is not the word on the street. George Fontanills/Pro-Vest CApital is being sued by the brokerage firm FIMAT USA (represented by law firm Proskaur Rose in NY) for 6 million dollars.

Mr. Fontanills (the so called GURU of options) opened the account(with approx 6 million) in June, 2003 and when he did not meet margin calls Fimat filed a suit against him for 6 milliom in November of 2003.

The case was orginally filed in the NY disctrict court (212) 374-4704 case # 603757 2003 but Mr. Fontanills and his lawyers those in Miami and Michael Smith of NY moved the case to the NY Federal court case # O3CV9796.

Although, the case has moved to arbitration Mr. Fontanills is still in jeopardy of losing his 6 million from his account as well as any other claims FIMAT may win against him. As for his counter claim and that he might win a big settlement with FIMAT remains to be seen. The proof is in the pudding.

If any of you are interested or need proof just contact the NY courts the case numbers are provided above; it's all public information. If the case was dismissed as Richard claims (I would like to see some evidence). Maybe Richard could provide it as he claims to know so much.

Also, Optionetics is Fontanills company unlike Richard claims. The company was established by Mr. Fontanills in 1993, he later brought in Richard in 1996 as CEO. For those of you requiring evidence go to www.sunbiz.org and look up the company under Global Investment Research, Corp or under Richard Cawood and you will see through the Annual Reports that Mr. Fontanills was president until November 2003. It can only be assumed that he took his name off the company to prevent Fimat from going after company assets as Fimat filed the law suit on November 23, 2003. How convenient that he now doesn't own the company. I guess he gave it away.

For those of you who may be feeling sorry for Mr. Fontanills, please don't. He recently sold a software company and has plenty of money. Word on the street is he presently looking to buy a 200K Bently to add to his collection of cars including a Dodge Viper and 300K Lamborghini. Just goes to show you the seminar business is very profitable especially when you sell dreams of making lots of money. By the way I wonder if all the Optionetic Instructors/traders drive expensive cars or is it just the officers and owners of the company?

Take my advise before purchasing any courses by Fontanills or otherwise, check out their trading portfolios (including their instructors as well, however, good luck ever getting them) to make sure they really trade as they say they do and to see how profitable they really are at trading.

Also, if these instructors are as good as they claim why are they teaching?(please don't use the excuse that out of the goodness of their hearts they like to share this information with those out there). It can't be for any other reason than making an income.

As the old adage goes "those that can, DO and those that Can't, TEACH". I personally know traders that make money trading and they cannot be bothered with teaching they make enough money trading that they don't have to. Keep in mind teaching people on the theories of trading is very different from actual trading.

You also can't expect to learn options trading in 2 days that's why Optionetics has so many other classes; they capitalize on a lifetime of learning. Also, the spread trades that they teach only cost more in commissions and limit your profits. It's better to keep the trades simple because you trade the option according to where you think the direction of the stock is headed.
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#32 UPDATE Employee

Inaccurate Information - the truth is:

AUTHOR: Richard - (U.S.A.)

Hi:

In case any one is interested in the truth, instead of internet chatter:

* The New York case was dismissed in this matter in favor of George Fontanills.

* An arbitration matter continues with a huge counter claim by Mr. Fontanills.

* Mr. Fontanills is the President Emeritus of Optionetics. It is not a Fontanills company. Just because he engages in litigation over a trading account this remain his private matter to pursue legal options available to him.

Thank you for reading.
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#33 UPDATE Employee

Inaccurate Information - the truth is:

AUTHOR: Richard - (U.S.A.)

Hi:

In case any one is interested in the truth, instead of internet chatter:

* The New York case was dismissed in this matter in favor of George Fontanills.

* An arbitration matter continues with a huge counter claim by Mr. Fontanills.

* Mr. Fontanills is the President Emeritus of Optionetics. It is not a Fontanills company. Just because he engages in litigation over a trading account this remain his private matter to pursue legal options available to him.

Thank you for reading.
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#34 UPDATE Employee

Inaccurate Information - the truth is:

AUTHOR: Richard - (U.S.A.)

Hi:

In case any one is interested in the truth, instead of internet chatter:

* The New York case was dismissed in this matter in favor of George Fontanills.

* An arbitration matter continues with a huge counter claim by Mr. Fontanills.

* Mr. Fontanills is the President Emeritus of Optionetics. It is not a Fontanills company. Just because he engages in litigation over a trading account this remain his private matter to pursue legal options available to him.

Thank you for reading.
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#35 UPDATE Employee

Inaccurate Information - the truth is:

AUTHOR: Richard - (U.S.A.)

Hi:

In case any one is interested in the truth, instead of internet chatter:

* The New York case was dismissed in this matter in favor of George Fontanills.

* An arbitration matter continues with a huge counter claim by Mr. Fontanills.

* Mr. Fontanills is the President Emeritus of Optionetics. It is not a Fontanills company. Just because he engages in litigation over a trading account this remain his private matter to pursue legal options available to him.

Thank you for reading.
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#36 Consumer Comment

George Fontanills Should Practice What he and His Company Preach

AUTHOR: Michael - (U.S.A.)

Simon,

Kudos to you for putting out there your report on Optionetics.

Here's something else you may want to know about George Fontanills/Pro-Vest Capital Corp. George Fontanills is presently being sued by FIMAT USA in the New York Federal Court for 6 Million for not compying with margin calls. Which may be verified if you call the NY Federal Court. This guy should practice what he preaches. Obviously he makes his money through seminars not trading.
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#37 Author of original report

To those considering the Optionetics " investment opportunity"

AUTHOR: Simon - (U.S.A.)

To those considering the Optionetics "investment opportunity": This, and my earlier posts, are specifically written for you. Please consider the following:

1) Take a look at http://www.johntreed.com/BSchecklist.html This is a common sense checklist to protect yourself against misleading marketing. In fact, you'll find that Optionetics hits most of the points on the list.

2) Optionetics brushed off my questions on the rate of return of their instructors. Instead, they alluded to how "good" and "successful" they are, citing that they have been on TV and magazines.

Why would they not answer my question? After all, the % return is the common yardstick to measure how effective an investor is (Imagine being sold a mutual fund that refuses to disclose its return in the past. Only telling you that the fund manager is very "successful". Would you trust him?)

The answer to the above question is very simple. Telling you thru the "testimonials" that their "customers" have achieved 200 or 300% annual return is one thing. Saying that they themselves have achieved such returns is another. Once they admit to such claims, anyone who manages to get hold of their trading records can expose them.

Still not convinced? Let's examine the numbers critically. Since their customer testimonials all claim 200+% returns, let's assume an average of 250% annual return for the Optionetics instructors:

a) 250% is more than 10 times better than the career record of Warren Buffet (24%), arguably the best investor in history.

b) The instructors, since they are so "successful", must have at least $10000 in their trading accounts. $10000 compounded at 250% per year over 10 years equals 95.36 million (a return of 953674%). In 15 years, 9.3 billion. Taxes and commissions have been omitted for simplicity, but you get the point.

So most of the instructors must be billionaires?! I haven't checked Forbes' billionaires list, but I suspect they're not there.

Using a bit of common sense, one can see that 3 digit returns are unrealistic. YET, all the Optionetics testimonials claim such returns.

If Optionetics is not lying, just tell us the numbers and prove me wrong.

3) If you're still not convinced after the above analysis, do yourself a favor and start with inexpensive materials first. There're lots of good books and free information on the web. As a general rule, it's always better to start with a small sum.

That's all I have to say. Thanks for reading.
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#38 UPDATE Employee

Thanks Peter

AUTHOR: Richard - (U.S.A.)

Peter: Thanks for the supportive comments you made. I hope to meet you at OASIS in 2005. You obviously know us well and thanks for taking the time to answer Simon. It is students like you that we work for every day to provide a better service and raise our game.

Bravo, Peter you nailed the comment about "success" and I am pleased to have people like you as part of the Optionetics family. Thanks again. Richard

Simon:

Moving back to your comments, we do not know who you are or if you are even a customer.

Let me address some of your observations:

1. Peter's comments are accurate and I am happy to endorse them so there is no need to repeat them.

2. Sorry, we do not have employ anyone named Peter and it is a leap of error on your part just because someone says something supportive/kind makes them an employee. In fact it is a sad image of the life that you make such a statement. Could not it just be that we did not answer you as we simply do not read these websites often. Actually, a customer upset at your post told me about your comments (and - no - not Peter).

3. My colleagues pedigrees as teachers, traders and as an authority in the subject of option trading are well known industry wide and this forum is not appropriate to justify them to you. Rather than repeat the obvious read the dust cover of any of our best selling books to read about their history. Or if you ever went to a seminar and asked them they would be happy to tell you their background, rates of return and successes. George and Tom have told their story enough on TV, radio and in books. Mike Wade is a great trader and speaks in his seminars of his background and success/failures. In fact all the instructors comment with humility about their failures aswell as their successes so you can learn from those too.

4. I should warn you that as my colleagues are very experienced traders you should not set your expectations on their level of success and hence why their track records could distort your view. Hence I believe that a students experience is a better indication of what you may achieve and so we use students as testimonials not George, Tom or any other instructor's track record. I caveat these statements with your individual trading results will vary and you should consult your licensed trading advisor about your expectations and trades before option or stock trading.

5. No matter what I say in these Reports the anonymous voice shouts down or spins the truth about our company. Or falsely accuses me of doing the same. We have no idea if the posters are even customers (we have 40,000+ customers across the globe). But we care enough to take the time to respond and explain why your statements are unjustified or incorrect. We invite you to call so we can offer solutions to you and that is great customer service.

6. So I will reiterate that you Simon, or any other student, does not need ANY tools to trade Optionetics successfully (although they make help), our guarantee is honored and clear in the contract that you sign (we do not move the goal posts after purchase), the 36 trades open and closed has been our policy for 12 years to allow us to test effort application and success, we give all product out in advance with a full money back immediate guarantee and our student testimonials are genuine and come frequently.

7. Please do not take my word for these things - arrange an appointment with me and fly down to our office and read the original testimonials yourself.

8. Again, Simon please contact me and I will be happy to go over your points in person. If you are a customer you will know how to get hold of me as my name is printed in your manuals or in DVD 1.

All that matters here Simon, is that I am genuinely sorry that we let you down some how that you felt it necessary to post your message in the first place. We will try to make it up to you when you contact our office and we can look up your customer file for your specifics. Please ask for Sean Stoney who will arrange a convenient time for you and I to speak.

Kind regards
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#39 UPDATE Employee

Thanks Peter

AUTHOR: Richard - (U.S.A.)

Peter: Thanks for the supportive comments you made. I hope to meet you at OASIS in 2005. You obviously know us well and thanks for taking the time to answer Simon. It is students like you that we work for every day to provide a better service and raise our game.

Bravo, Peter you nailed the comment about "success" and I am pleased to have people like you as part of the Optionetics family. Thanks again. Richard

Simon:

Moving back to your comments, we do not know who you are or if you are even a customer.

Let me address some of your observations:

1. Peter's comments are accurate and I am happy to endorse them so there is no need to repeat them.

2. Sorry, we do not have employ anyone named Peter and it is a leap of error on your part just because someone says something supportive/kind makes them an employee. In fact it is a sad image of the life that you make such a statement. Could not it just be that we did not answer you as we simply do not read these websites often. Actually, a customer upset at your post told me about your comments (and - no - not Peter).

3. My colleagues pedigrees as teachers, traders and as an authority in the subject of option trading are well known industry wide and this forum is not appropriate to justify them to you. Rather than repeat the obvious read the dust cover of any of our best selling books to read about their history. Or if you ever went to a seminar and asked them they would be happy to tell you their background, rates of return and successes. George and Tom have told their story enough on TV, radio and in books. Mike Wade is a great trader and speaks in his seminars of his background and success/failures. In fact all the instructors comment with humility about their failures aswell as their successes so you can learn from those too.

4. I should warn you that as my colleagues are very experienced traders you should not set your expectations on their level of success and hence why their track records could distort your view. Hence I believe that a students experience is a better indication of what you may achieve and so we use students as testimonials not George, Tom or any other instructor's track record. I caveat these statements with your individual trading results will vary and you should consult your licensed trading advisor about your expectations and trades before option or stock trading.

5. No matter what I say in these Reports the anonymous voice shouts down or spins the truth about our company. Or falsely accuses me of doing the same. We have no idea if the posters are even customers (we have 40,000+ customers across the globe). But we care enough to take the time to respond and explain why your statements are unjustified or incorrect. We invite you to call so we can offer solutions to you and that is great customer service.

6. So I will reiterate that you Simon, or any other student, does not need ANY tools to trade Optionetics successfully (although they make help), our guarantee is honored and clear in the contract that you sign (we do not move the goal posts after purchase), the 36 trades open and closed has been our policy for 12 years to allow us to test effort application and success, we give all product out in advance with a full money back immediate guarantee and our student testimonials are genuine and come frequently.

7. Please do not take my word for these things - arrange an appointment with me and fly down to our office and read the original testimonials yourself.

8. Again, Simon please contact me and I will be happy to go over your points in person. If you are a customer you will know how to get hold of me as my name is printed in your manuals or in DVD 1.

All that matters here Simon, is that I am genuinely sorry that we let you down some how that you felt it necessary to post your message in the first place. We will try to make it up to you when you contact our office and we can look up your customer file for your specifics. Please ask for Sean Stoney who will arrange a convenient time for you and I to speak.

Kind regards
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#40 UPDATE Employee

Thanks Peter

AUTHOR: Richard - (U.S.A.)

Peter: Thanks for the supportive comments you made. I hope to meet you at OASIS in 2005. You obviously know us well and thanks for taking the time to answer Simon. It is students like you that we work for every day to provide a better service and raise our game.

Bravo, Peter you nailed the comment about "success" and I am pleased to have people like you as part of the Optionetics family. Thanks again. Richard

Simon:

Moving back to your comments, we do not know who you are or if you are even a customer.

Let me address some of your observations:

1. Peter's comments are accurate and I am happy to endorse them so there is no need to repeat them.

2. Sorry, we do not have employ anyone named Peter and it is a leap of error on your part just because someone says something supportive/kind makes them an employee. In fact it is a sad image of the life that you make such a statement. Could not it just be that we did not answer you as we simply do not read these websites often. Actually, a customer upset at your post told me about your comments (and - no - not Peter).

3. My colleagues pedigrees as teachers, traders and as an authority in the subject of option trading are well known industry wide and this forum is not appropriate to justify them to you. Rather than repeat the obvious read the dust cover of any of our best selling books to read about their history. Or if you ever went to a seminar and asked them they would be happy to tell you their background, rates of return and successes. George and Tom have told their story enough on TV, radio and in books. Mike Wade is a great trader and speaks in his seminars of his background and success/failures. In fact all the instructors comment with humility about their failures aswell as their successes so you can learn from those too.

4. I should warn you that as my colleagues are very experienced traders you should not set your expectations on their level of success and hence why their track records could distort your view. Hence I believe that a students experience is a better indication of what you may achieve and so we use students as testimonials not George, Tom or any other instructor's track record. I caveat these statements with your individual trading results will vary and you should consult your licensed trading advisor about your expectations and trades before option or stock trading.

5. No matter what I say in these Reports the anonymous voice shouts down or spins the truth about our company. Or falsely accuses me of doing the same. We have no idea if the posters are even customers (we have 40,000+ customers across the globe). But we care enough to take the time to respond and explain why your statements are unjustified or incorrect. We invite you to call so we can offer solutions to you and that is great customer service.

6. So I will reiterate that you Simon, or any other student, does not need ANY tools to trade Optionetics successfully (although they make help), our guarantee is honored and clear in the contract that you sign (we do not move the goal posts after purchase), the 36 trades open and closed has been our policy for 12 years to allow us to test effort application and success, we give all product out in advance with a full money back immediate guarantee and our student testimonials are genuine and come frequently.

7. Please do not take my word for these things - arrange an appointment with me and fly down to our office and read the original testimonials yourself.

8. Again, Simon please contact me and I will be happy to go over your points in person. If you are a customer you will know how to get hold of me as my name is printed in your manuals or in DVD 1.

All that matters here Simon, is that I am genuinely sorry that we let you down some how that you felt it necessary to post your message in the first place. We will try to make it up to you when you contact our office and we can look up your customer file for your specifics. Please ask for Sean Stoney who will arrange a convenient time for you and I to speak.

Kind regards
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#41 UPDATE Employee

Thanks Peter

AUTHOR: Richard - (U.S.A.)

Peter: Thanks for the supportive comments you made. I hope to meet you at OASIS in 2005. You obviously know us well and thanks for taking the time to answer Simon. It is students like you that we work for every day to provide a better service and raise our game.

Bravo, Peter you nailed the comment about "success" and I am pleased to have people like you as part of the Optionetics family. Thanks again. Richard

Simon:

Moving back to your comments, we do not know who you are or if you are even a customer.

Let me address some of your observations:

1. Peter's comments are accurate and I am happy to endorse them so there is no need to repeat them.

2. Sorry, we do not have employ anyone named Peter and it is a leap of error on your part just because someone says something supportive/kind makes them an employee. In fact it is a sad image of the life that you make such a statement. Could not it just be that we did not answer you as we simply do not read these websites often. Actually, a customer upset at your post told me about your comments (and - no - not Peter).

3. My colleagues pedigrees as teachers, traders and as an authority in the subject of option trading are well known industry wide and this forum is not appropriate to justify them to you. Rather than repeat the obvious read the dust cover of any of our best selling books to read about their history. Or if you ever went to a seminar and asked them they would be happy to tell you their background, rates of return and successes. George and Tom have told their story enough on TV, radio and in books. Mike Wade is a great trader and speaks in his seminars of his background and success/failures. In fact all the instructors comment with humility about their failures aswell as their successes so you can learn from those too.

4. I should warn you that as my colleagues are very experienced traders you should not set your expectations on their level of success and hence why their track records could distort your view. Hence I believe that a students experience is a better indication of what you may achieve and so we use students as testimonials not George, Tom or any other instructor's track record. I caveat these statements with your individual trading results will vary and you should consult your licensed trading advisor about your expectations and trades before option or stock trading.

5. No matter what I say in these Reports the anonymous voice shouts down or spins the truth about our company. Or falsely accuses me of doing the same. We have no idea if the posters are even customers (we have 40,000+ customers across the globe). But we care enough to take the time to respond and explain why your statements are unjustified or incorrect. We invite you to call so we can offer solutions to you and that is great customer service.

6. So I will reiterate that you Simon, or any other student, does not need ANY tools to trade Optionetics successfully (although they make help), our guarantee is honored and clear in the contract that you sign (we do not move the goal posts after purchase), the 36 trades open and closed has been our policy for 12 years to allow us to test effort application and success, we give all product out in advance with a full money back immediate guarantee and our student testimonials are genuine and come frequently.

7. Please do not take my word for these things - arrange an appointment with me and fly down to our office and read the original testimonials yourself.

8. Again, Simon please contact me and I will be happy to go over your points in person. If you are a customer you will know how to get hold of me as my name is printed in your manuals or in DVD 1.

All that matters here Simon, is that I am genuinely sorry that we let you down some how that you felt it necessary to post your message in the first place. We will try to make it up to you when you contact our office and we can look up your customer file for your specifics. Please ask for Sean Stoney who will arrange a convenient time for you and I to speak.

Kind regards
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#42 Consumer Comment

To Optionetics

AUTHOR: Simon - (U.S.A.)

Why hasn't Optionetics responded to this complaint? Afterall, this complaint is about them. Two possible reasons: 1)Having a "customer" (who sounds suspiciously like an Optionetics employee) answer the questions allows the company to not be accountible for anything said. Or 2) the company doesn't care about the complaints.

Let's hear directly from Optionetics.

The following questions are to be answered by the SEMINAR INSTRUCTORS of Optionetics (ie. George Fontanills, Tom Gentile, Mike Wade, etc):

1) What is the AVERAGE ANNUAL RATE OF RETURN on your Optionetics investments? In other words, what is the % difference between your trading account balance at the beginning of the year and the end? Of course, any withdrawals or deposits should be treated appropriately.

Please don't give us a range (ie. 50 to 500%). That hardly means anything. Give us the AVERAGE. A single number.

2) On AVERAGE, how many trades do you make in a year?

3) How many years have you been trading?

Please give us answers to the above questions for at least 3 instructors.

If Optionetics is everything it claims to be, there is no sound reason for them not to answer. In fact, if the answers are favorable, it would be great publicity for the company.

The students are paying a hefty price, and they deserve to know the credentials of the instructors. Otherwise, it's like going to a university where the professors can't show you their PHD certificates.
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#43 Consumer Suggestion

% Returns

AUTHOR: Peter - (U.S.A.)

"Success" means different things to different people. It could be a successful part time job, hobby, telling your wife she can quit her job or quitting yours, taking more vacations, buying a new car or becoming a full time trader.

For me it was quitting my job and trading for a living. I make a 6 figure income from my trading exclusively Optionetics strategies net of broker fees. My taxes are none of your business. My losses are limited by the managed risk strategies, losers are adjusted also to minimise risk or exit quickly. % losses vary from month to month as do winners. I look at my annual returns which have varied from 50% - 458% (best year). My first 3 months were terrible until I suddenly found my error of not following the Optionetics rules. I started with little $ and have traded up carefully so we are very comfortable. I quit work when I was convinced that I could do this for a living. What a gift it has been - my wife no longer works and I have paid for my kids college. That for me is "my" success.

Also to help you some, I trade through OptionsXpress. They are fantastic and well versed on Optionetics strategies.

Perhaps your doubts or negative outlook on life (no disrespect intended to you, just the way you write) clouded your ability to trade well and you gave up too quickly. You learn more from your losers than your winner as the emotion of pain of money loss clouds your decision. Your trade diary is the most vital thing as you look back and see your decision tree. If you are not successful move back to paper trading and try try again. Once you have a strategy working go back into the market.

Good luck I hope you find the "success" you are looking for. I found mine with Optionetics. But don't blame the teacher just because the student can't work out the solution. Don't give up, it works.

Your more than welcome.

God Bless.
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#44 Consumer Comment

Let's cut to the chase

AUTHOR: Simon - (U.S.A.)

Peter, and a number of other Optionetics traders, have repeatedly used the word "successful" in their comments. It's time for them to clear up the meaning of this ambiguous word.

Please answer the following simple question:

What is your ANNUAL RATE OF RETURN on your investments, using the Optionetics system? Net of trading expenses such as commissions, taxes, and most important of all your LOSSES on unprofitable trades. In other words, what is your NET annual rate of return, trading the Optionetics system exclusively?

Please don't run around this question. It's worded clearly and anyone who knows a bit of math should be able to answer.
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#45 Consumer Comment

Optionetics Great Company Great People Great Product

AUTHOR: Peter - (U.S.A.)

I am a customer of Optionetics and have been for 5 years. I can speak from my personal experience and the people that I have met. I have attended over 15 events put on by Optionetics. I am making a living trading Optionetics.

So instead of hype lets talk specifics:

* When you buy Optionetics you sign a contract. That contract contains the terms of purchase and the money back guarantees. It is not misleading. It is clear. If you don't read what you sign don't blame anyone but yourself.

* In the same contract it states "other tools may be needed". Again read.

* At their annual convention this year I met hundreds of current successful students. Not from the 90's but from 2004. At seminars I meet the same. I am another such testimonial.

* For 5 years I have been coming back for free education and new updated materials. It is fantastic.

* I started out trading using FREE tools on the internet. Like Yahoo.com. I did not buy anything else until I had made money. Then I invested my profits back in more tools.

* Optionetics does not mislead it's customers in my personal experience nor leave out material facts. What I was sold was exactly what I got - the best life time pass to free education. Cutting edge instructors with the latest techniques.

* Optionetics does not say turn $50 into $9000. That comment alone shows you no nothing about the company or trading. What they say is you can risk as little as $50 or $500 on a trade so that if you are 100% wrong you don't lose any more.

* To be able to make money you have to open and close a trade. That is what the Optionetics guarantee says, their website states and they have not altered this policy at least the last 5 years since I have been a customer.

* Warren Buffett extensively uses options to protect his investments. Again fact. He invests differently to a trader. The really great traders remain private John Henry, John Lampert, George Fontanills and retire quietly.

Any way my take on Optionetics is great people, company with fine integrity, polite, professional and the real deal. I have been to many other programs and they all stand in the shadow of Optionetics.
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