• Report: #161920

Complaint Review: Symmetry Direct - Genesis

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  • Submitted: Mon, October 24, 2005
  • Updated: Fri, March 05, 2010

  • Reported By:Gahanna Ohio
Symmetry Direct - Genesis
4174 Anson Drive Hillard, Ohio U.S.A.

Symmetry Direct - Genesis Recruiting Fraud, Ripoff Hillard Ohio

*Consumer Comment: Rhinos Forever

*Consumer Comment: LOL

*Consumer Suggestion: A little truth

*Consumer Comment: Mark

*Consumer Suggestion: numbers

*Consumer Suggestion: good stuff

*Consumer Suggestion: Right on Amie!

*Consumer Comment: My understanding...

*Consumer Comment: i'm sorry

*Consumer Comment: Deceptive Employment Ads

*Consumer Comment: hopefully I can help

*Consumer Comment: Yes, Mark, Please Explain

*Consumer Comment: Confused

*Consumer Comment: true....but

*Consumer Comment: Interesting....

*Consumer Comment: Good job Thomas

*Consumer Comment: Very well said, Mark. I feel better already.

*Consumer Comment: I have come to realize

*Consumer Comment: I think I know why Donald Trump would start Network Marketing

*Consumer Comment: Churning is the answer!

*UPDATE Employee: hmmmmmmm

*Consumer Comment: What's up!

*Consumer Comment: What's up!

*Consumer Comment: What's up!

*Consumer Comment: What's up!

*Consumer Comment: MLM's and Christianity

*Author of original report: More on Genisis Juice

*Consumer Comment: Not attacking you personally

*Consumer Comment: unbelievable

*Consumer Comment: Employment

*Consumer Comment: response

*Consumer Comment: Sigh....

*Consumer Comment: response to amie and mica

*Consumer Comment: Please be more specific!!!

*Consumer Comment: Ubelievable

*Consumer Comment: Ubelievable

*Consumer Comment: Ubelievable

*Consumer Comment: people

*Consumer Comment: Good job!

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Well, it seems as if I am reporting the first of (what will probably be) many rip off reports on this company. I fealt defrauded because I answered a newspaper add (Columbus Dispatch)for costumer service reps. Now this add had no dollar amount or no big promises (unlike a Ds max type add) this add looked real legit I asked the seceretary questions made sure it wasn't a door to door scam and I made an apointment.

When I got to the place I knew something was up (they had all of those motivational posters on the walls and everyone there was about my age-early twenties). I was ushered into a room to watch a video and hear a speech about the "oppurtunity". I knew it was a scam but I had already driven halfway around the city so I thought that I should get some entertainment some type of way.

They showed us a video about how we can make big bucks pitching are freinds or relatives these health products. They told us that it wouldn't happen immediately, but that in two years time we could make 60,000 dollars a year (or more) of residule income!

I (of course) did not pay the 159 dollars to become a distributor and get a starting pack, but of the 7 college age people duped to watch the video 5 of them did sign up. The fraud of symmetry may not be the products, or that it is a mlm, it is that they advertised these jobs as costumer service and other office type of jobs.

The other girl who did not sign up said she had colled about an office administrator job. They waisted my time (and hers) and for that fradualent act, I am reporting them so that others are not duped.

Mica
Gahanna, Ohio
U.S.A.

This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 10/24/2005 04:08 PM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Symmetry-Direct-Genesis/Hillard-Ohio-43026/Symmetry-Direct-Genesis-Recruiting-Fraud-Ripoff-Hillard-Ohio-161920. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.

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#1 Consumer Comment

Rhinos Forever

AUTHOR: Alvin Mack - (USA)

MrCool and Mark-Bet you too are gonna be job optional, sippin' on some genesis with Jon Barton, Tim Woodcox and Joe Delisle himself when all is said and done huh!

I got sucked in to this scheme.  Let me give you the rundown of how it happened to me.

1) Phone call-"Are you still looking for full or part time employment.  We are West-Mac, a health and wellness company.  We'll do a group interview and then see where you fit best with the company"-this sounded pretty good to me, and since my college just had a career fair, I didn't think it was weird that a company called me, even though I didn't remember them, O well, figured I might as well check it out.

2) The interview/overview or whatever you schemers wanna call it this time.  What a great time this was!  I arrived at the little office located in a small strip mall, and it had no signage indictating the name of the company-just a small window decal.  Walk in, everyones all dressed up, and they sit everyone down in fron of a whiteboard and a tv.  We watched some guy draw the plan on the whiteboard with promises of job optional lives and early retirement.  The same thing with the TV infomercial.

3) I figured- I am a smart kid, if I am dumb enough to do this scheme I can for sure scheme some other people, so I signed up.  Then they get me with the "seeds of success" workshop speech.  Whatever-I figured if I was gonna be a good schemer I had to get training.

4) The Rhino Univeristy- this was awesome.  I loved the part when they turned down the lights and played Tom Petty "Running down a dream".  O ya! Chase that dream of being job-optional making tons of money and taking "nutrition" wth the likes of old Rudy Revak himself.

5) You can even buy post-it notes to plaster all over cars parked in parking lots.  One of my faves was "SPRING FEVER Earn up to $1500 a month working part time"  Shoot, I figured everyone would wanna catch "spring fever" and I'd be job optional in no time!

6) Well, to make a long story short, its a big time commitment, and alot of it involves disregarding personal integrity to trick people into joining.  Most people who need jobs, don't have the extra 200 bucks to splurge on a bunch of vitamins to re-sell to their friends and family.  So it felt wrong making the money off of people who gave the "Business" their last dime

The head guy at the office worked part time delivering pizzas for Hungry Howies!  Either he really liked driving an old clunker that stunk like anchovies, or his 1099 wasn't quite working out for him.

I am literally laughing out loud when I think about Mark walking to his mailbox every month, or should I say walking to his parents mailbox because that's probably who he lives with, and getting his symmetry check (which is actually his credit card bill that he keeps putting his auto-ship order onto because that is the only money he has).

Hey-Run down the dream! Job optional Rhinos helping people with personal finances and health and wellness! 

Rhinos forever!

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#2 Consumer Comment

LOL

AUTHOR: Alvin Mack - (United States of America)

Thanks Mr.Cool for the truth. Ha.

Let me gues Mr.Cool and Mark, you guys are gonna be job optional, sippin' on some genesis with Jon Barton, Brady Madden and all those other RHINOS!

I attended Rhino University, the seeds of success workshop.  I will say that Joe Delisle is one heck of a salesman, he makes it sound awesome.  The guy really knows how to persuade you.

One of my favorite things was when they turned down the lights and flashed strobe lights and played Tom Petty "Running down a dream".  How classic.  Chase that dream of being job optional! 

They gave us scripts to use to try and con our family and friends into joining:--------"Hey Granny,  I just came across this great business opportunity.  I am working for an international health and wellness company.  Perhaps you and Gramps want to join and create a buisness based on residual income!"

You can also buy packs of Post-It notes to plaster all over peoples cars in the parking lots.   Examples included "SPRING FEVER! EARN UP TO $1500 A MONTH WORKING PART TIME" then it gave a number, which had the extension of the "INDEPENDENT" business owner who the post-it note belonged to.  Boy, I wanna catch Spring Fever if I can make a ton of money at an "Athletic" company.

But the "interview" or overview or whatever spinoff you wanna call it is awesome too!  They have this tiny office in a little strip mall with no signage or anything to mark where it is located.  The office I went to was West-MAC- standing for West Michigan Advanced Concept (I guess the advanced concept was tricking people into joining).----Anyways, you sit in front of the TV and they play their infomercial, and then someone presents on how residual income works and how you can retire when you are 25!

One of the best parts of the interview was when, the guy presenting goes, "We have the honor of hearing "Jon Smith" talk at the "Power Hour" tomorow!  ---Like he was some high-up person in the company when in reality he was just another business owner like the guy presenting.  They switched who became the important guy from week to week to spice things up a little.

Bottom line, if you are good at tricking people into thinking they can make money off of this-then you have a good chance at making money for a while off of it. 

But, one more note, the head guy in the office I went to, had a part time job delivering pizza for Hungry Howies!  Guess his 1099 wasn;t working out the way old Rudy Revak had planned huh?

Rhinos forever! LOL

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#3 Consumer Suggestion

A little truth

AUTHOR: MRCOOL - (United States of America)

I'll be honest with you, first learn how to spell and use the correct words before you start judging something and talking trash about it. Second don't act so ignorant.

I understand that you replied to a news paper ad about a certain position and it wasn't really what you expected. That doesn't mean that it is a scam, maybe they are just looking for people from certain backgrounds. Obviously you had a closed mind about it and you weren't interested in a job.

I've honestly been to quite a few of these "scam" meetings and this one really isn't a "scam". Somethings that they talk about don't seem realistic but if you cut into individual parts and inspect it closely, then you might be able to understand how things work.

This company is a part of a Network Marketing Industry which really is growing rapidly. It's actually suprising.

If anyone is interested in anything Symmetry then I would suggest that you check it out for yourself. You may be like this person who was not interested at all but that is okay. It doesn't mean that this is a "scam"

-MRCOOL

I am simply here to help educate others and shed light on the truth.

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#4 Consumer Comment

Mark

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Again, I ask.

Care to show us your 1099 from last year?

Because everything you just said is BUNK. The true numbers don't lie..
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#5 Consumer Suggestion

numbers

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

One more thing I forgot to mention. In the figures that you provided, Amie, you stated that you had to enroll 100 people per month to break even. That doesn't make any sense at all. I don't think that anyone in the mid-west has over 100 personally enrolled customers or business partners PERIOD. Some of the top business partners might have between 40 and 50 personally enrolled. The figures that are missing from the example are the figures that once you enroll people, they go out and enroll others as customers and business partners. Here is an example that, if you are patient enough to do the math, makes perfect math-matical sense. It sounds simple, but it is very hard. It is a 3 step program.

1) Maintain an autoship of one 4-pack of Genesis
2) Enroll 4 people per month that purchase a 4-pack of Genesis
3) Show one of those 4 each month how to duplicate steps 1 and 2

After 6 months of this, you will be making at least $2,000 a month passive walk-away residual income. After 1 year, you will generate a 6 figure income.

I still don't quite understand everything that was stated, but just to clarify. If someone gets a Basic Pack..their enroller will make $30 on an enrollers bonus. If they order a 4-pack the following month, their enroller will make around $12. You have to remember that the enroller makes $12 every time that product gets ordered again. So, lets break it down. For the sake of math lets say that everyone maintained an order.

Month 1:
- Enroll 8 Basic Packs..$240
Month 2:
- Enroll 8 Basic Packs..$240
- Month 1 business partners re-order..$96
Total: $336
Month 3:
- Enroll 8 Basic Packs..$240
- Month 1 and 2 B/P re-order..$192
Total: $438
Month 4:
- Enroll 8 Basic Packs..$240
- Month1,2,3 B/P re-order..$288
Total: $528
Month 5:
- Enroll 8 Basic Packs..$240
- Month1,2,3,4 B/P re-order..$384
Total: $624
Month 6:
- Enroll 8 Basic Packs..$240
- Month1,2,3,4,5 B/P re-order..$480
Total: $720
Month 7:
- Enroll 8 Basic Packs..$240
- Month1,2,3,4,5,6 B/P re-order..$576
Total: $816
Month 8:
- Enroll 8 Basic Packs...$240
- Month1,2,3,4,5,6,7 B/P re-order..$672
Total: $912
Month 9:
- Enroll 8 Basic Packs..$240
- Month 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 B/P re-order..$768
Total: $1,008
Month 10:
- Enroll 8 Basic Packs..$240
- Month 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 B/P re-order..$864
Total: $1,104
Month 11:
- Enroll 8 Basic Packs..$240
- Month 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 B/P re-order..$960
Total: $1,200
Month 12:
- Enroll 8 Basic Packs..$240
- Month 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11 B/P re-order..$1,056
Total: $1,296

Year One: $9,222..Not even one of your reps enrolled anyone by the way, and at this point you qualify to earn 20% instead of 10% on your personally enrolled people's auto-ships, So, technically at month 12 your income would be $2,592 per month, whether or not you work. Now I understand that not everyone will stick around, but I am sure that your reps would have a couple of customers by now. That is just your monthly residual check. When you get to this point, you are earning car bonuses, achievement bonuses, mentor bonuses, quarterly bonuses, and about 16 more bonuses. The mentor bonus is awesome. It is distributed based on actual company growth. (Wouldn't it be cool if when someone working a job made more money based exactly on the actual company growth). Plus there is a bonus where if you show someone who is bran new how to enroll their first 8, you make an extra $200 for showing them how to start out strong. One more example, then I am done.

If you enroll 5 who enroll 5 down to the seventh level, that would be 78,125 people on your seventh level. If each of those people consumed 1 bottle of Genesis per month, you would make $234,375 per month. (5251256253,12515,62578,125) Listen, I didn't write those figures to slam it in your face, but I just wanted some of the real numbers out there. There are a ton more bonuses out there that I don't feel I need to mention. People will try this business for 6 months, they won't be making $5,000 a month, and they say it doesn't work. How many people do you know of that make that in their job, at entry level, after 6 months? This is a business, and it will take time.

Forget getting wealth for one minute here. What if you worked hard for 5 or 6 years, and you were making $2,500 a month whether or not you work? Most people work on average for 45 50 years at a job, and, on average, make that per month. But when they stop working, there money stops. If they have worked long enough for the same company, they might get a pension, yeah, but that is still only 40% of the 100% of income they had a hard time living off of before.

And social securityplease. My generation wont see a penny of that. There are tons and tons of people who are way past the age of retirement that work at a grocery store, greeting you at the door, I don't say that out of disrespect, but I am sure that that was not their plan for retirement. I am not saying that working a job is bad or wrong, because people need to do those things, all I am saying is that there is a different way, if you are willing to work for it. Most people aren't willing though. I hope that you don't take what I have been saying in any way of disrespect at all, because that is not my goal. I just want the right information out there.
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#6 Consumer Suggestion

good stuff

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

Amie, hats off to you. You, or whoever did that math, spent a lot of time on that. I am not going to lie, math isn't my strong suit. You lost me a little bit. As far as your examples go, they are a bit off, but just for the sake of not arguing about that, let's say that your example was dead on, and you made $13,368 dollars for your whole first year of business. That might be under the poverty level, yeah, but you have to consider since most people cannot live on that amount of money, they would still be working a part time job on the side. Here is the deal, you are building a business. Most businesses don't even profit at all until they are 6-10 YEARS old. So, if you make $13,368 your first year, you are already ahead of the bell curve in business. Plus, since our incomes compound month to month, that is $13,368 that you are going to make whether or not you work! That is awesome! Even one dollar that you make that you didn't have to work for is a good freakin dollar. If you had a regular job that paid you $13,368 a year, that would suck, because you have to keep working to generate that income. Where in a business that deals with consumable products, once you generate that income through satisfied customers, you will continue to make it due to repeat business. Tell me this, if you had a full time job, working 40 hours a week, and you did this business part time and just busted it out for a year, and then after that year went by, you generate a passive walk-away residual income of say $10,000 each and every year, whether or not you ever step foot in an office again, would that be worth it? That is a lifestyle change for a lot of people. If you can honestly say, with no grudge against Symmetry, that a year of working your butt off is not worth it to generate any type of passive income, then this opportunity is definitely not for you. But if you think that that sounds well worth it, then in my opinion, this is the best opportunity out there. The funny thing is, SO many people need some false sense of security, that they never figure out what they could have been. What is more secure than whether or not you work, and check comes in the mail. I remember listening to Robert Kiyosaki (multimillionaire, very successful business owner) a long time ago, and he said a line that I will never forget, he said, "I wanted my freedom so badly, that I didn't want job security." He went on to say, "The more security you need, the weaker you are." I love that. And I have said this repeatedly, if you are not into building a business, then don't. I am building a business and I am happy doing it. Someone wrote in a post something about why doesn't Symmetry do everything online, cut out the middle distributors, and save millions. Where in regular business that would be the norm. Mr. Revak set us this marketing structure for one reason, so that every day people could have the same opportunity that he had years ago. He always says that he doesn't want to be the biggest, fastest growing, most profitable company in the world, he just wants to be the most respected. He puts millions of dollars in profits back into the field for the distributors. That should tell you something about his ethics. Symmetry pays out up to 72% of the money generated from a product out to the field! That is a ton of money that Mr. Revak could be pocketing for himself. I know that every single job that I had ever had was the harder I worked, the nicer car my boss drove. Yeah I might have gotten a raise, but the raise definitely wasn't congruent with the amount of money that I generated the company. Mr. Rudy Revak is the most ethical man that I have ever met in my entire life, and his company, Symmetry Direct, is the most ethical company I have ever seen. Later on this month, we are going to go hang out with him a little bit in Chicago. The beginning of January some of us got to go hang out with him and the executive team and other individuals from all over the world in the Dominican Republic, all expense paid trip. The resort we stayed at for that week cost over $6,000 per person. The cool part is that we didn't have to ask for vacation time, and when we got back our checks were in our mailboxes. That is cool. This is an awesome company, if you have some beef against one or two people, that is one thing, but don't bring this company into it. Thanks.
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#7 Consumer Suggestion

Right on Amie!

AUTHOR: Brian - (U.S.A.)

Amie, that was awesome, I think everyone should read the figures listed above.

I, too, was mislead into thinking this was an actual job interview. It happened right here in Kansas City. The phone call and appointment set up seemed very professional, but when I arrived at the "interview" in Kansas City, Kansas, I knew something was up.

Since I had driven 20 minutes to the location, I decided not to leave right away; rather, I would stay until I felt extremely uncomfortable or if I were told to leave.

My first instinct something was wrong was the location: I passed by the office building two times because it was kind of "hidden". No sings outside, no mention of company name or business associates. I arrived late, but I walked up the stairs and was asked my name. My name was on a list with about 10 other names. The secretary went around a barrier (to an attached room) and came back 1 minute latter. She crossed me off the list and led me to the other room. It felt like a motivational instruction. Large tv, 15 chairs set up in neat rows, everyone in business attire.

An early aged business guy was at the front talking about opportunity, health, networks, and--of course--money. The weirdest thing was that some people in the "crowd" were very into his "presentation" while others--like me--were not. Some people (during the speech) would chime in replies of, "Yes! ; Oh, that's awesome! ; I wish I could do that! ; This is awesome!" They all seemed a little nutty to me. I assumed that these people were actors and probably already affiliated with the program.

The night continued and things got weirder. The longer you stayed, the better their odds of getting you to sign up and to go to one of the "conferences".

There was also a fake telephone call, you could obviously tell it was previously recorded with people.

I finally left, but decided to stick around and see when these people would leave the building. I entered another business connected to the same one that I was at. The owner of this shop greeted me. He said I was lucky he was there because he's usually gone much earlier, but he decided to come in that night. I asked him if he had noticed anything "fishy" going on in the offices next to him. With certainty he said that he has thought something weird was going on there for quite some time. He said that he always sees new people dressed in business clothes going in there several times during the month. One time he asked one of the persons what was going on in there and they said that they are selling "Health and Wellness Products". I told him my experience, thanked him, and left.

It had been 4 HOURS! since my arrival. After 20 minutes, two people walked out. I approached them (thinking they were just like me) and asked them what they thought of the whole thing. They got excited and said, "Well, actually, we're in the program...and it's going great!"

I couldn't believe it. During the "interviews", these people weren't even sitting next to each other, and now they were getting into the same car?! They must have been acting during the whole thing.

One thing that I found funny, these people acknowledged to me they sold the health products; however, it was so encouraging for me to see the one girl smoking in the car. Come on!

To make things worse, as I was speaking to these people, the man who had been giving the speech walked out of the building. I stiffened up, he asked me some questions, and then I said promptly that I had to leave now.

End of the weirdest night of my life!



Hey Mark, is this how they got you?


Great work Amie! Where's Mark's rebutal of your figures...he doesn't have one!
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#8 Consumer Comment

My understanding...

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Mark, just to clarify our "misunderstanding." The advertisements that are out there, and not just here in Michigan, but in other parts of the country, are advertising for Customer Service positions, and Administrative Assistant Positions, WITHOUT claiming that they are 1099 or any other type of marketing "jobs." Even the ones locally here are quite deceiving, as we already know.(I've noticed though that after several complaints, they have toned down their deception, of which I am very pleased to see.) I don't think I need to go through this again. Not everyone is aware of what a 1099 "job" is, and not everyone believes that a Fitness Employment opportunity is actually a health company that is wanting you to sell overpriced vitamins for them and recruit other people to do this as well for a large amount of money.

While Symmetry products may be shipped all over the world, I am under the impression that they are not allowed to have their pyramid scheme operating in Wisconsin, thanks to a man that you may know of heard of named Joe Delisle. This is the same man who worked for Trek Alliance, which is also another pyramid scheme, that the FTC shut down for operating under the SAME deceptive tactics that Symmetry Direct now works under. Interestingly enough, if you do a google, you find that Mr. DeLisle operates out of Minneapolis... conveniently RIGHT near the border of Wisconsin. Coincidence? I don't think so. According to Rick Ross dot Com, there are more than enough valid complaints against this man, and what he did during his time at Trek Alliance. Same exact thing the company Symmetry Direct, that you are so proud of does. In fact, this story appears from the state of Wisconsin:


Press Release: State of Wisconsin Department of
Justice/July 16, 2001

Madison -- Attorney General Jim Doyle announced todaythat his office has filed a complaint against a California company, its officers and two sales persons for using misrepresentations and other unlawful practices to sell distributorships for the resale of household products and water treatment devices.

Doyle said that the complaint has been filed in DaneCounty Circuit Court against Trek Alliance, Inc.,Truckee, California. Also named in the state'scomplaint are the firm's officers Harry Flagg, InclineVillage, Nevada, and Richard Vonalvensleben a/k/a/Rich Von, Morgan Hill, California, and two salespersons Joseph Delisle, St. Paul, Minnesota, andTravis Just, Rush City, Minnesota. Trek Alliance is a multilevel marketing company that offers distributorships for consumer products including cleaning products, vitamins, nutritional supplements,
skin care products and water filtration devices. According to the complaint, Trek Alliance made the following deceptive claims to recruit distributors forthe products it offers:misrepresented that clerical and management positionswere available when they were not;failed to disclose that an investment was required to become a distributorship; and
misrepresented income potential for prospective
recruits;failed to disclose that the water treatment devices it promotes could not be lawfully sold in Wisconsin. According to the Department of Justice's complaint, Wisconsin residents have suffered financial loses as a
result of Trek Alliance's practices, and the company will continue to engage in the above violations unless enjoined from doing so. Doyle said that the state is seeking restitution for
Wisconsin residents who were financially harmed by Trek Alliance's practices, civil forfeitures for the alleged violations and an injunction preventing Trek Alliance, its officers and employees from doing business in the state. The complaint was based on an investigation conducted
by the Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection. The case has been assigned to Dane County Circuit Court Judge Stuart A. Schwartz.


Does anyone else find any coincidence here in Trek Alliance and Symmetry? I DO!!! I also want to point out again, that if you do a google on Joe Delisle, he is conveniently deceiving people right across the border in Minnesota now, as he is not allowed to operate in a pyramid scheme in Wisconsin. This is the type of company that Mark is so proud to work for! Again, see Rick Ross's page on Trek Alliance for more information. Mentions of Joe Delisle are all over the place. He is not allowed to operate his pyramid scheme of any kinds in Wisconsin, period. Therefore, his part of Symmetry Direct is inoperable in the State of Wisconsin.

Next I want to address your own statement: "Symmetry products are shipped all over the world." This is great, if the products do what they say they do. Here's my question for you, and it is something that I truly do not understand. If Symmetry Direct were NOT a pyramid scheme, and they were truly a legitimate company, why on God's green earth would they not solely market this product out of their HQ in California, and online, and save millions a year on having to pay their marketing reps? We live in a time and place of Internet sales, NOT MLM. There is no need today for MLM. You can send an email to five people, and have it travel the world in five minutes. However, talking to people on the street, or meeting them at a fake job interview, you are only going to piss people off, and turn them away from what you are talking about by annoying them. Why not let people do a search for "Bible Based Healing Products" or whatever it is you advertise, and let them buy directly from the company and go about thier business? Thereby completely eliminating the middle man! What a genius concept. Why does Symmetry not want their wonderful and fabulous products to compete with those products that are similar? I certainly would want my product too. Imagine how my income would go up, if say, I owned Symmetry products, and sold them out of Walmarts instead of through a pyramid scheme operation.

Why though? Because Symmetry is designed to fail. They are obviously not out there to sell the product, they are out there to RECRUIT! Recruiting is where the money comes from, NOT from the sales of the products. If they truly cared about the product, and cared and what they were supplying to the public, the key ingredients would be customer service, and product marketing. NOT marketing for Marketing! Does that make any sense to anyone?

Let's talk about the math now for Symmetry Direct. Since I am lazy (and have a real job to attend to), I have a wonderful friend who was able to put this all into perspective as follows, based on information that Mark, himself has provided. I also want to point out that my friend has done a LOT of research into this too, including being suckered into this for a short time before coming to their senses.

This is what my friend has come up with:

About the $30 for a new enrollee: when someone joins, they've said that the enroller gets 20% (of $150) for the first month and 10% afterwards (making it $15 per 4-pack autoship). This means 1 package of Genesis, Ultra Vitality or NutraPack earns roughly $3 to $4 in commission. And, the 4-pack is the basis of their pyramid/retail plan. The $30 doesn't account for thepeople above the enroller, which is up to 6 levels (depending on the enroller's location in the pyramid). People at the top get 8% of the sale if the enroller is at level 4-7.

Imagine what you get when $4 is split among 7 people(based on their Compensation Plan). Look at their pyramid plan upside down. 57 cents is based on equal amounts from the $4, but the top three levels of the organization the enroller is in gets a bigger share than those closer to the sale. The above calculation is based on the 4-pack cost of $150 divided by 4, which is $37.50, making the commission $3.75, rounded up to $4. This is for the introductory pack. The monthly cost is $122, divided by 4, makes it $3.05
commission at 10%, making the commission lower on a monthly basis. The actual Basic Pack price is $149. (I used $150 because Mark from Cedar Springs used that amount in RifOffReport. Tha actual per-unit commission is between $3 and $4. But that's not all.

30 points = $30 dollars in Symmetry. This means $3 is split amount 7 people, with people closer to the top getting a larger share than the one who made the sale. The amount is about 42 cents. Genesis is $32.30, and this calculation $3.23 commission, rounded down to $3.30 points is the minimum monthly requirement for purchases. The Policies and Procedures mentions buying Points, not Products, too.

The above calculation assumes that 10% of the price is split among 7 people or 1 person. I don't know the actual method of calculating commissions.

30 points divided by 7 people, assuming $30 is itselfsplit among 7 people, based on monthly autoship, not Basic Pack with business materials:

10% is $3.00
10% is $3.00
10% is $3.00
08% is $2.40
08% is $2.40
08% is $2.40
08% is $2.40

Commissions makes of $18.60 is commissions are splitfrom the total price of a $30 product.

If split from 10% of the price of the product,
commissions make up $1.86.

They say the commission is based on the price of theproduct, not on a certain percentage of the price.

A $30 product minus commissions is $11.40 based on the above math. If commissions were based on 10% of the product price split among 7 people, the actual retail price of the $30 product is about $14. Either way,this isn't good. Add business expenses, it becomes worse.

Based on the above calculations, buying the 4-pack,enrolling 8 per month (as promoted), selling 2 of 4 at retail:

---------> Your monthly autoship
$ - 122.00 4-Pack
$ - 10.00 shipping
$ + 50.00 Retailing 1 from 4-Pack
$ + 50.00 Retailing 1 from 4-Pack
This section has a net loss of $32.00.
Selling 1 more pack would make it $18 profit.
Selling 2 more packs would make it $68 profit.
Using and sampling is unprofitable.

---------> Enrollees's Second month of autoship
$ + 2.40 (at level 7) for autoship of 4-Pack
$ + 2.40 (at level 7) for autoship of 4-Pack
$ + 2.40 (at level 7) for autoship of 4-Pack
$ + 2.40 (at level 7) for autoship of 4-Pack
$ + 2.40 (at level 7) for autoship of 4-Pack
$ + 2.40 (at level 7) for autoship of 4-Pack
$ + 2.40 (at level 7) for autoship of 4-Pack
$ + 2.40 (at level 7) for autoship of 4-Pack
This is 8 enrollees second month.
Total is $19.20.


---------> Enrollees's First month of autoship
$ + 20.00 (at level 7) for enrolling 1 4-Pack
$ + 20.00 (at level 7) for enrolling 1 4-Pack
$ + 20.00 (at level 7) for enrolling 1 4-Pack
$ + 20.00 (at level 7) for enrolling 1 4-Pack
$ + 20.00 (at level 7) for enrolling 1 4-Pack
$ + 20.00 (at level 7) for enrolling 1 4-Pack
$ + 20.00 (at level 7) for enrolling 1 4-Pack
$ + 20.00 (at level 7) for enrolling 1 4-Pack
This is 8 enrollees first month.
Total is $160.

This means:

Retail only, after buying 4-pack:
1. $ - 32.00 for following the plan exactly.
2. $ + 18.00 for selling 3 of 4.
3. $ + 68.00 for selling 4 of 4.
4. Agreement says to follow plan, doing (1) only.
5. LOSS of $32 per month. This is Symmetry Success.
6. $68 is just over half of the purchase price.
7. Return on investment is too low in best case.
8. Best case (3) is $-132 + $+68. $64 is actually
lost.

Second month of auto-ship:
1. $19.20, assuming all 8 are active with 4-Pack.
2. Must enroll 100 people per month just to break
even.
3. Also to overcome retail loss.
4. 8 per month is Symmetry's standard for success.

First month of auto-ship:
1. $160 is above the investment, which is good.
2. Doesn't count business expenses.
3. Enrolling 100 per month is impossible.
4. Enrolling 8 is the monthly standard.

The "residual income" comes from adding 8 people per month and retailing 2 boxes per month, and keeping 8 people per previous month at $122/month.

96 people total per year * $122 in 4-packs (month 2)= $+ 11,712

Same people at month 1, assuming all start in JAN
= $+ 1,920 = $20 * 96 people

Retailing 24 packs (2/month) at $50 = $+ 1,200

Approximately $14,832 per year or $1,236/month.

However, add the autoship:

The autoship at $122/month is $1,464/year.

Income is now $13,368/year or $1,114/month.

$1,114/month is under the poverty level.

Add these monthly expenses:
$- 30.00 RhinoCom (similar to Quixtar's CommuniKate)
$- 300.00 Seeds of Success.
$- 98.00 Successprinting.biz flyers

That doesn't include everything that Seeds of Success sells, or the hotel and transportation.


So Mark, if you don't care to discuss emotionally and ethically what is wrong with the company, perhaps you can share what is wrong with these numbers? (Numbers that YOU provided!) I don't think they're wrong however, after looking them over, and doing the math myself, they are probably dead on. Care to show us your 1099 form from last year?
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#9 Consumer Comment

i'm sorry

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

Amie, I am going to be completely honest with you and tell you that I dont have any idea about those ads that you just mentioned. I really have no idea about that, so I am sorry that I can't be of anymore help to you than I have.

As far as being a little off the deep end, although I am sure you meant it in a way that is derogatory towards myself, I might have to agree with you a little. Anybody that does something that the majority of people dont do, is perhaps a little off the deep end.

Out of curiosity, where did the information that was brought to your attention come from, because I don't believe that there is a state in the United States that doesn't have Symmetry's products mailed to them every month. That doesn't really make sense. Plus Symmetry has corporate offices in 14 different countries and our products are in somewhere around 24 markets around the world, so if Symmetry were doing something wrong, I am sure that the issue would be brought to the international level first. But hey, I could be wrong. I seriously would like to know where that information came from, because I would like to view it for myself. Thanks
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#10 Consumer Comment

Deceptive Employment Ads

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Mark, those are not the ads that people are talking about, and you know it!

The ones that advertise "Customer Service position at Fitness Company" or "Administrative Help wanted at International Health Company," that are put in all the local papers. You've seen them, I've seen them, and a few people have had the misfortunate experience of answering a few of them hoping for employment!

The worst part about this is, is that some people actually go to the "interviews" in hopes of landing a job, and walk out either with $250 less in their pockets, or exceptionally pissed off.

That you are willing to support a company that condones this, does speak about your character. While I have enjoyed our dialogue, I also believe that you are a little off in the deep end in supporting unethical, and what should be, illegal behavior on behalf of Symmetry Direct.

I won't even get started on the phone calls asking if people are looking for "full or part time employment." These people ought to be ashamed.

However, it has also come to my attention that they are not allowed to operate in a couple of states because Symmetry Direct has been classified as a Pyramid Scheme there. Hats off to them! I can't wait to see that happen here in Michigan.
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#11 Consumer Comment

hopefully I can help

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

First of all, I would like to thank both of you, Mica and Juliet, for not bashing this company and making false claims. It is nice to have someone ask for answers rather than think they know them and then write about them.

First and foremost, I am not surprised that it requires a degree to become an engineer, I was merely just saying that to make a point. Don't get me wrong, we need people to do certain things; we need doctors, teachers, construction workers, engineers, etc. That is a given. Without those people busting it out, day in and day out, this world wouldn't even function. The only thing that I meant when I said that was people, that are interested, will let $160 dollars stand in their way of getting started, when it is so generally accepted that someone can sign thousands of dollars in student loans and nobody will think twice. That was my point.

I am very happy that your family and friends and other enginerds are doing so well, and much more importantly doing what they love to do on a daily basis. That is really cool. Before I found this business, I had no direction in my life and no passion to pursue. This business is my 3rd biggest passion in my life. (God, family, and Symmetry)

I get up every day, knowing that I might be able to help someone with their health issues, or with their financial issues. In my personal opinion, there is nothing greater. So hopefully that answers your question about if this is what I really want to do, and where I want to be at this stage in my life. It means a lot to me. That is why I take it so personal when people slander this awesome company that has made such an impact on my life.

As far as your statistics about the percentage of people obtaining a degree; that is probably accurate. But, I know that out of all the people that begin to pursue a degree, somewhere around half don't make it. I will be honest, I dont have the exact numbers or percentages, but I am pretty sure that we can agree that that must be close.

I completely agree with your statement that money should not prevent you from doing the things that you really want to do, I believe that whole heartedly. If you feel in your life that there is enough value, moneywise, to go to college and get a degree, by all means do it. I personally didn't see the value. I see people every day leave the overviews that have a strong desire to do what we do, but let the money stand in the way. Believe me when I say that I agree that money shouldn't prevent you from doing the things that you want to do.

As far as the ads in the newspaper go, to be honest, I have no idea what people put in there. Ads are organized by the individuals in the offices who want to run them. The ads have nothing to do with Symmetry, and what I mean by that is Symmetry doesn't have people go out and put ads in the paper. Whatever day individuals want to put an ad in the paper, they call up the newspaper headquarters and pay for some ad space. So please, please don't call Symmetry unethical. That is giving a great company a bad name. I have personally ran one ad since I have been with the company. And personally, I dont think that it is misleading at all:

International Health and Wellness Company expanding locally. Seeking a few sharp, motivated individuals with good people skills. Will train, flexible hours. 1099 income. Contact Mark at: xxx-xxx-xxxx.

I dont think that that is misleading in any way shape or form. Now I can see maybe how someone would view that as a job, but by the same token, my ad talks about exactly what I am looking for in my organization. (sharp, motivated individuals with good people skills) That is all. I want to say this one last time, and it might be a bit redundant but please don't link Symmetry's name with anything that is unethical. There may be some individuals that are business partners with the company running there own business the way they feel it should be ran. Symmetry is an international company, and there are only a couple of offices in the midwest area of the United States. The offices are independently opened by business partners, not Symmetry, as a place to do business rather than out of people's homes. The rest of the world of Symmetry, outside the midwest, builds this business out of there homes. So it is a huge claim to say something bad about this company.

Most people reading this didn't even realize the information that I just wrote about. So you can understand that when someone makes an uneducated claim, it can get under my skin a little bit. But again, I do appreciate your aksing me questions. Good luck finding what you want to do, and if you think that helping people with health and finances, while generating income because of it, sounds good, I say the juice is worth the squeeze. Thanks for your time.
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#12 Consumer Comment

Yes, Mark, Please Explain

AUTHOR: Juliet - (U.S.A.)

Mica writes:
" why would a company need to advertise one type of job and then offer something totally different. Please Mark answer that one question."

I would really like to know the answer, too. What kind of ETHICAL company posts ads for jobs that do not exist?
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#13 Consumer Comment

Confused

AUTHOR: Mica - (U.S.A.)

Okay Mark, I am very confused by your post. You seemed surprised that you would need an associates degree to become an engineer. Why wouldn't you? You are not born w/that type of knowledge. That is why people go to college to learn, or to learn how to learn (more of a liberal arts approach.

Okay, most of my cousins are enginerds (he he he), in fact one is a nuclear engineer, of course they had to go to college and even grad school. Now do you think they did this just to get a job, or to gain a career and also a sense of accomplishment. There is something to be said when one can state that they are the eminent authority in their field.

One of my husband's friends just obtained an engineering degree got a good job (in a horrible job market) making 45k, and bought a house. The most important thing to know about him, is that he is doing what he loves. Now, I don't think he incurred any debt, because he did have a college fund, but I know that everyone is not that fortunate.

The economic woes that you speak of are comprehensive and require a comprehensive solution. However, I will state that when I was working on my thesis I found out that only a small percent of Americans get a bachelors degree (or even an associates).The number fluctuates but is below 30 percent

Now, my original plan was always to a become a lawyer (international contracts/then international human rights). Due to health issues, and my marriage I took two years off so because of my location, the tight job market, and the fact that I have a liberal arts degree there weren't many job available.

So that is why the 2 hours I spent at Genesis Symmetry or what have you was a colossal waste of my time (not to mention gas). Look the point is Mark that money should not prevent you from doing what it is you really want to do. I hope that your goal in life is not to obtain money, but to do something great. We all have a purpose in life.

Mark, I do not know what your purpose is in life, all I can do is tell you what it is not. Your purpose is not to strive day end and day out to make a buck. Your purpose is not to cause anyone harm. Your purpose is not to sacrifice any of your dreams for things.

Oprah once said that if you do what you love, you'll eventually make money. It's a good thought (though it does work in every example like priest, and aid workers). There's another saying that I couple w/that. Make the that money, don't let the money make you (from the movie Player Club). That something that I think people often forget.

Again, Mark, I will mention my previous post where I spoke about the people that I had known who made lots of money w/Amway. There are a few things I think that need to be answered. Mark, are you doing what you really want to be doing at this point in your life? Two, why would a company need to advertise one type of job and then offer something totally different. Please Mark answer that one question.

Oh and you can't say it was a one time thing. Every week I see newspaper ads for that company and other MlM'S. They don't use their names of course, or tell you outright that they are an MLM, but I can tell the type of ads now.

Also, they will call you from your resume on Monster and Careerbuilder. Why would a legitimate business do that? Why wouldn't someone just post in the newspaper what they were really about? Moreover,, if it's so great why do they need to attract people at all? It seems like your family and friends would be lining up to join after seeing some of your successes.

Okay, I know I've had a pretty verbose rant, but seriously follow your dreams, not some company that puts misleading adds in newspapers.
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#14 Consumer Comment

true....but

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

Amie, the statement that you made about not being able to retire is somewhat true. What they mean by that you just still need to use products. That is the only thing. You just have to use the products that you choose each month, and then your organizational check comes in. That is my favorite day of the month. Going to my mailbox and getting my check for the month prior. Hopefully that clears that up for you.
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#15 Consumer Comment

Interesting....

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

I believe that "lies on this side of the line.." is fairly accuarate when describing Symmetry.

Lies are told there each and every day. Especially the one about retirement. Their own website says there is no retirement, so for Mark to claim that he will be able to retire in his twenties is more than false information!

I strongly suggest applying to college and getting an education before this pyramid collapses.

You might learn something about ethics while you're at it.
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#16 Consumer Comment

Good job Thomas

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

Great job on your retirement. I am not joking, I mean that. You are fortunate to be living the life that many others would like to live (others meaning people who work jobs as well as people who build businesses). I am pretty sure that we can all agree, no matter what your view or financial standing, that it is becoming harder and harder to make ends meet for the average person.

In reality, the average person is slowly getting cut out of the picture, where the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. That gap between rich and poor is getting bigger. Honestly Thomas, how many people do you know that are living the lifestyle that you do? If so, they are probably people that are about your age group. I am in my early 20's.

People are no longer having a midlife crisis. They are having a quarter life crisis. People my age are coming out of college with more debt than ever before in history, less jobs available, and we are getting paid less based on inflation than any other generation before us. With all due respect for what you have accomplished in life, my generation doesn't have those same options that you did. Job security, today, is pretty much a joke. We can all agree that finding a safe, secure, steady job is getting harder and harder.

My options were not very many. That is why I am doing something different. Whether or not you agree, it costs money to get any good job today. I was going to get into engineering, and all the companies said that they wouldn't even look at me without an associates degree. For my field, that was $40,000 and two years of my life. Doctors and lawyers have do spend so much on school, and so much of their lives studying. That is fine, we need people to do that. So when I looked at $159 dollars to get products and start working with the company, I pretty much laughed.

I know that not everyone will see my opinion, and that is fine. I am just trying to shed some light on the situation. I dont have to justify what I do. I know it works. Things are different today Thomas. And I am not saying that everyone that works a job will be broke, I am just saying that my chances to generate the income I am looking for lies on this side of the line. Thanks for your time.
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#17 Consumer Comment

Very well said, Mark. I feel better already.

AUTHOR: Thomas - (U.S.A.)

I was getting very queasy, but then I reached the end of your post.

I was going to hammer the OP for posting "costumer service reps" instead of CUSTOMER Service Reps until I realized that OP was discussing a really big Bad Act. So I agree with OP that "costumer service reps" is correct but I suggest she write Costumer Service Reps.

Oh, yea, Mark, I was one of those 9-5 wage slaves but I made it to retirement and in grand style. My work was very interesting and I had wide latitude and authority over some very pricy decisions. But all came out well. We will have to see how you do.

P.S. If you were to advertise a position in a misleading way at the company I retired from [or if you did anything else that brought the company disrepute] you would be 'gone' in two heartbeats- if you heart beats really fast. There were NO second chances.
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#18 Consumer Comment

I have come to realize

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

This message goes out to Amie, Inuyahsa, Mica and everyone else out there who has a bad opinion or has had a bad eperience with some multi level company. In my time with Symmetry, I have met some of the most hard working, positive, and goal-driven people of my life. I like to think that I am one of them as well, and that other people view me that way. I have also found in my trials of understanding people is that there are always two ways of looking at everything. I stress the word "everything" in the hope that people understand the magnitude of this statement. There is a positive way, and then the average way. The average way assumes the negative all the time; let's find the bad in something. This is what the majority of our population does. The positive way is obviously the opposite where they look for the good in things. A very small portion of our population thinks this way.

I am not trying to be philisophical, I am just trying to prove a point. Some people will never change how they look at things, and never change their opinion about things; myself included. When I was introduced to Symmetry, I saw a way that I just might be able to change where I am going financially; change my life. I grasped onto it not knowing if I could, but knowing that it was possible. That was WAY more of a guarentee than I had when I was trying to find a 9 - 5 job that I could work at for the next 50 years of my life, hoping not to get "let go", building someone else's dream for them. I made a decision that it was my time to do something for myself.


Yeah, its costs money, and time, and blood, sweat, and tears; but so did your bosses company when he started it. Fortunate for you, he thought that he might be worth a chance in himself, just like I think I am worth a chance in myself. Bottom line, every business in the entire world is structured the exact same; from Corporate America to Multi-level Marketing to Religion to Government to whatever. Obviously you hate multi-level marketing with a passion, that is fine, it is probably just not going to be for you. But please dont tear apart my dream because you are stuck in your reality. There are two ways to the top, you can run faster, or you can cut people's legs out from under them. One is positive, and one is average.

I am not going to post a rip-off report about my dad's company, who after 35 years of him working, laid him off because they outsourced. I do this for my family, so that they don't have to worry about that happening. I am not a rock star in Symmetry; even if for some reason I never get the results I am out to achieve, I am having the best time of my life with the best people I have ever met. At least I shot for something, instead of justifying reasons not to.
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#19 Consumer Comment

I think I know why Donald Trump would start Network Marketing

AUTHOR: Juliet - (U.S.A.)

Donald Trump would probably start in Network Marketing because HE'D BE AT THE TOP.

That's the one point I've never seen disputed on any of these reports - the people at the top, yeah, they make money.

Would Donald Trump buy into Amway, Quixtar, Melaleuca, Herbalife, and so on??? Doubt it. Would he START a business such as that? Wouldn't be at all surprised, the man does know how to make money FOR HIMSELF.

As far as those flat-out lying ads wanting administrative support personnel, when what they really want are salespeople, or recruiters, or whatever you wish to call them, they ARE lying. Those jobs are NOT available, and it is absolute deception to place an ad for a job that doesn't exist.

Is that a crime? Probably not. Is it immoral, unethical, unfair? You better believe it. Misleading people who are already stressed from trying to find jobs they are qualified for, and then it turns out, THERE'S NO SUCH JOB - it ought to be a crime. Another hope/prayer dashed. Thanks a lot.
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#20 Consumer Comment

Churning is the answer!

AUTHOR: Tim - (U.S.A.)

Companies like Amway and Mary Kay don't collapse becuase they "churn." The people at the bottom (who make up about 98% of the people involved) are constantly coming in and going out at a turnover rate that would make your head spin.

The churning prevents the pyramid from getting so "tall" that it can't support its own commission struture.

If you can maintain a bottom downline of, say, 100,000 people, you can support a few levels of uplines. But if the people in that 100,000 are actually successful and recruit their own downlines, you're in trouble.

When a pyramid doesn't churn, it's either because nobody's coming in, or nobody's leaving, or both. If nobody new is coming in, the bottom downlines have no chance at having their own downlines and leave the business. The process repeats itself up through the lines, and the pyramid "collapses."

If nobody's leaving, then the pyramid swells, and new levels have to form. But if you understand the mathematics of pyramid-scheme commission sharing, you understand that only a few levels can be supported. Thus, when nobody leaves, the commission structure fails and the pyramid "collapses."

So as long as you can keep a fresh flow of suckers coming in to your pyramid, you'll do just fine as a business. Of course, those suckers will not be doing so fine.
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#21 UPDATE Employee

hmmmmmmm

AUTHOR: James - (U.S.A.)

Hey Aimee, if "the pyramid will collapse" because "it is a certainty", why has both Amway and Mary Kay each been around for almost half a century?
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#22 Consumer Comment

What's up!

AUTHOR: Mike - (U.S.A.)

Yeah this is Inuyahsa! So how long have you've been in the business Mark? Just wondering!

Do you think that you can retire soon in a couple of years or so? I also thought so too, but you should know that not everything will happen the way you want it.

Think about it Mark, what if your network falls? What if everybody in your team quits due to some selfish, greedy, lying, people. What would you do?

I know that in training they probably thought you to be positive. How can you be so positive with so many negative posibilities?

I've known some people that claimed that they've been in the business for 2 years or so but it seems like they're not even going no were. What I mean by not going anywhere is that when I looked at the board in the office they are only in the bronze medallion ( Business people who only enrolled 8 to about 14 people)! Don't you think that's pathetic? It might be because they are not committed, but think about, what if that was you!

So do you really believe that Joe Desile, Stephnie Versteg, Matt, Gregg, Shawn, and etc. are 6 figure money earners? So tell me where are there 3000 enrollees. 625 teams times 7 people is 3000 something. Which I mean where are 3000 people of each of these so called 6 figure money earners. I named about 5 so called 6 figure money earners but there are about 6 so called 6 figure money earners. 6, six figure money earners times 3000 is 18,000 people. Where are they? They are not even in the business.


Mark, they make you believe that you can become like then but you got to have a reality check. Stop living in fantasies! I don't mean to say this to offend you but just think about it.

Maybe rich people want you to join Net work marketing because they want to make money from you. Don't be so gullible! You got to be more skeptic. They're sure are alot of schemes and scams out there and MAYBE Symmetry Direct is one of them. I believe so!


I use to believe in the business but noe anymore. Sure MAYBE Paul Zane Pilzer MIGHT be right about the next trillion dollars in nutrition, but maybe it might not happen in Symmetry!

I do honestly think Network Marketing is bad because there are ALOT of people competing with you! Do you think that you have a chance?
I don't know but MAYBE Symmetry Direct is a pyramind scheme.

I just want to educate people about this business so that they wouldn't fall in my footstep. People have the right to know. It's justice to be right.

Well thanks for your time!
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#23 Consumer Comment

What's up!

AUTHOR: Mike - (U.S.A.)

Yeah this is Inuyahsa! So how long have you've been in the business Mark? Just wondering!

Do you think that you can retire soon in a couple of years or so? I also thought so too, but you should know that not everything will happen the way you want it.

Think about it Mark, what if your network falls? What if everybody in your team quits due to some selfish, greedy, lying, people. What would you do?

I know that in training they probably thought you to be positive. How can you be so positive with so many negative posibilities?

I've known some people that claimed that they've been in the business for 2 years or so but it seems like they're not even going no were. What I mean by not going anywhere is that when I looked at the board in the office they are only in the bronze medallion ( Business people who only enrolled 8 to about 14 people)! Don't you think that's pathetic? It might be because they are not committed, but think about, what if that was you!

So do you really believe that Joe Desile, Stephnie Versteg, Matt, Gregg, Shawn, and etc. are 6 figure money earners? So tell me where are there 3000 enrollees. 625 teams times 7 people is 3000 something. Which I mean where are 3000 people of each of these so called 6 figure money earners. I named about 5 so called 6 figure money earners but there are about 6 so called 6 figure money earners. 6, six figure money earners times 3000 is 18,000 people. Where are they? They are not even in the business.


Mark, they make you believe that you can become like then but you got to have a reality check. Stop living in fantasies! I don't mean to say this to offend you but just think about it.

Maybe rich people want you to join Net work marketing because they want to make money from you. Don't be so gullible! You got to be more skeptic. They're sure are alot of schemes and scams out there and MAYBE Symmetry Direct is one of them. I believe so!


I use to believe in the business but noe anymore. Sure MAYBE Paul Zane Pilzer MIGHT be right about the next trillion dollars in nutrition, but maybe it might not happen in Symmetry!

I do honestly think Network Marketing is bad because there are ALOT of people competing with you! Do you think that you have a chance?
I don't know but MAYBE Symmetry Direct is a pyramind scheme.

I just want to educate people about this business so that they wouldn't fall in my footstep. People have the right to know. It's justice to be right.

Well thanks for your time!
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#24 Consumer Comment

What's up!

AUTHOR: Mike - (U.S.A.)

Yeah this is Inuyahsa! So how long have you've been in the business Mark? Just wondering!

Do you think that you can retire soon in a couple of years or so? I also thought so too, but you should know that not everything will happen the way you want it.

Think about it Mark, what if your network falls? What if everybody in your team quits due to some selfish, greedy, lying, people. What would you do?

I know that in training they probably thought you to be positive. How can you be so positive with so many negative posibilities?

I've known some people that claimed that they've been in the business for 2 years or so but it seems like they're not even going no were. What I mean by not going anywhere is that when I looked at the board in the office they are only in the bronze medallion ( Business people who only enrolled 8 to about 14 people)! Don't you think that's pathetic? It might be because they are not committed, but think about, what if that was you!

So do you really believe that Joe Desile, Stephnie Versteg, Matt, Gregg, Shawn, and etc. are 6 figure money earners? So tell me where are there 3000 enrollees. 625 teams times 7 people is 3000 something. Which I mean where are 3000 people of each of these so called 6 figure money earners. I named about 5 so called 6 figure money earners but there are about 6 so called 6 figure money earners. 6, six figure money earners times 3000 is 18,000 people. Where are they? They are not even in the business.


Mark, they make you believe that you can become like then but you got to have a reality check. Stop living in fantasies! I don't mean to say this to offend you but just think about it.

Maybe rich people want you to join Net work marketing because they want to make money from you. Don't be so gullible! You got to be more skeptic. They're sure are alot of schemes and scams out there and MAYBE Symmetry Direct is one of them. I believe so!


I use to believe in the business but noe anymore. Sure MAYBE Paul Zane Pilzer MIGHT be right about the next trillion dollars in nutrition, but maybe it might not happen in Symmetry!

I do honestly think Network Marketing is bad because there are ALOT of people competing with you! Do you think that you have a chance?
I don't know but MAYBE Symmetry Direct is a pyramind scheme.

I just want to educate people about this business so that they wouldn't fall in my footstep. People have the right to know. It's justice to be right.

Well thanks for your time!
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#25 Consumer Comment

What's up!

AUTHOR: Mike - (U.S.A.)

Yeah this is Inuyahsa! So how long have you've been in the business Mark? Just wondering!

Do you think that you can retire soon in a couple of years or so? I also thought so too, but you should know that not everything will happen the way you want it.

Think about it Mark, what if your network falls? What if everybody in your team quits due to some selfish, greedy, lying, people. What would you do?

I know that in training they probably thought you to be positive. How can you be so positive with so many negative posibilities?

I've known some people that claimed that they've been in the business for 2 years or so but it seems like they're not even going no were. What I mean by not going anywhere is that when I looked at the board in the office they are only in the bronze medallion ( Business people who only enrolled 8 to about 14 people)! Don't you think that's pathetic? It might be because they are not committed, but think about, what if that was you!

So do you really believe that Joe Desile, Stephnie Versteg, Matt, Gregg, Shawn, and etc. are 6 figure money earners? So tell me where are there 3000 enrollees. 625 teams times 7 people is 3000 something. Which I mean where are 3000 people of each of these so called 6 figure money earners. I named about 5 so called 6 figure money earners but there are about 6 so called 6 figure money earners. 6, six figure money earners times 3000 is 18,000 people. Where are they? They are not even in the business.


Mark, they make you believe that you can become like then but you got to have a reality check. Stop living in fantasies! I don't mean to say this to offend you but just think about it.

Maybe rich people want you to join Net work marketing because they want to make money from you. Don't be so gullible! You got to be more skeptic. They're sure are alot of schemes and scams out there and MAYBE Symmetry Direct is one of them. I believe so!


I use to believe in the business but noe anymore. Sure MAYBE Paul Zane Pilzer MIGHT be right about the next trillion dollars in nutrition, but maybe it might not happen in Symmetry!

I do honestly think Network Marketing is bad because there are ALOT of people competing with you! Do you think that you have a chance?
I don't know but MAYBE Symmetry Direct is a pyramind scheme.

I just want to educate people about this business so that they wouldn't fall in my footstep. People have the right to know. It's justice to be right.

Well thanks for your time!
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#26 Consumer Comment

MLM's and Christianity

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Hey Mica, I am all for having beliefs and faith, but these MLM's are freakishly weird about it. I believe the reason that they are so successful in many places (especially small Christian communities) is because they push this cult-like atmosphere about their products, and claim God is involved in it all. (Even their literature brags about this!) Last time I remembered, God said that he "hates a lying tongue" and that "an honest answer is like a kiss on the lips." How many MLM's are completely honest about what they do?

The reason that I am personally so upset is because our local branch of Symmetry called me one too many times asking if I were seeking "full or part time employment" on a phone line that about 5-6 people have. (And after I was stupid enough to waste an hour at one of their "interviews....) With that said, not one of them would have been dumb enough to give my number to these people, and therefore, I don't believe thier song and dance about "referrals" either. They also advertise in our local paper for "employment" opportunities, but they have none to offer. They are deceptive, dishonest, and they need to go. The more people can find these sites and this information, the better and more educated that they can make themselves, and not waste a few hours of their lives. Or, if they were not bright enough to figure out what was going on, they might actually waste a few thousand dollars, and not make a dime before finally deciding that this isn't for them.

After doing research, and talking with former employees, I have only began to touch the tip of the iceberg with what this company is really about and what their "message" and focus is.....it's a wee bit scary!

Either way, the job market right now is tough. People don't need to be given false hope and offers of "employment" for a pyramid scheme.
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#27 Author of original report

More on Genisis Juice

AUTHOR: Mica - (U.S.A.)

So...
I went to my uncle's funeral in OKC this weekend, and the sign for the funeral home stated"Symmetry Direct Genisis is here!". Does anyone think that is a little odd for a funeral home.

Oh and Mark we already know you are not an "employee". I am very aware of how mlm's work. The point of this post (and others like it) is to atleast not let peole waste their day (or 2 hrs of it) going to an interview that they think is just going to be for office assistant work (1099 was no where on the ad). I also know a lot about work ethic. Moreover, what I really loathe about mlm's right now is how they try to tie their message into Christanity. Jesus was not about so called finacial freedom, or about getting more friends so you can be their upline and work to another level, we are all trying to get to another level, but it should not have anthing to do about building a bussiness (on earth). Hey Amie, watch how this comment I made brings out a lot of misquotes from the bible, and false doctrine.
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#28 Consumer Comment

Not attacking you personally

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Mark, I am not attacking you personally, and I thought we had also gotten past that. I am attacking the deceptive and dishonest recruitment that you and others KNOWINGLY admit to, when it comes to getting new people into this pyramid scheme. While you may not personally offer employment, many of your associates DO, and that is simply WRONG, and DISHONEST. What abou that is so hard to comprehend?

Have you thought yet about what you are going to do once this plan collapses? What will you do for work then? These "multi-level marketing" schemes will only work for so long. People have had homes foreclosed on, and have lost thousands in debt and have filed bankruptcy for these plans. According to Symmetry's own website, there is no chance at retirement. You claim that at 20 years old you will be retired soon. How is this possible when Symmetry doesn't allow it?

I have heard the same song and dance hundreds of thousands of times from Nikken, Amway, and Mary Kay and so on and so forth.

The pyramid will collapse. It is a certainty, and it is only a matter of time.
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#29 Consumer Comment

unbelievable

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

Amie, try and think about this. How long would a company last without customer service, without scientists that formulate and make the products. As a DISTRIBUTOR, I dont have to deal with all those hassels. That is where the company comes into play. The people that are employees of the company dont build the business, they are people who work a job. They allow what I do to be easy. I dont do any of those things. Can you not comprehend that? And as I mentioned before, I dont offer "employment". I thought that we already discussed this on the other post. If you are reading this post for the first time, and have come into an office or are going to go into an office, please realize that what they are offering you is to build a business for yourself rather than work a job. If you would like a JOB with this company, you will have to move to florida and get behind a desk and do customer service or be part of field services. Come on, Amie. Please think before you write. I thought that we got past this already.
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#30 Consumer Comment

Employment

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Mark says he is not an employee....

However, he admittedly works for a company that offers Customer Service positions, calls and asks people if they are looking for full or part time employment, and puts newspaper ads in that ask for Administrative Help, etc.

Now if I didn't know any better, I would definitely call Mark an employee...

BUT, then again, this company doesn't have employment to offer anyone, so how can he be an employee when there is no employment to be gained....

Confusing AND deceptive if you ask me!
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#31 Consumer Comment

response

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

Mica, when I was talking about Trump, I wasn't trying to make a claim of his net worth, I was just trying to make a point. Although the definition of multi is "many, multiple, more than one or two". So technically he is a multi billionaire. But I am not trying to get caught up on details. The only employees that Symmetry has are the costumer service people, as well as some of the scientists.

This is the last time I am going to say this.

I AM NOT AN EMPLOYEE.

Employees trade hours for dollars. I am paid on production. Did you know that once you build your business to your desired level, you can walk away from it and continue getting paid. I am only 20 years old, and I am on track to retire within 3 years, never having to work again if I dont want to. My monthly organizational check will come in because of what I built. What job can do that for you. I have no boss. It is awesome. I am sorry, but how does your opinion of this company matter anyway, you didn't even get involved. So, you know about other companies in this industry, that's great. Did you know that Symmetry pays out more to its reps than any other company in the industry. There are around 22,000 companies. We have an entirely different pay structure, plus more bonuses.

The Network Marketing Business Journal named Symmetry company of the month throughout the whole world. This company is is absolutely exploding right now. The only reason I wrote all of that is so that people that read this can see some actual facts about this company, versus listening to someone's opinion who didn't even get involved. On another note, you don't have to use your friends and family, that is your choice. I started by asking for their support, that gave me confidence to talk to people that i dont know. Today, 98% of my organization are people that I didn't know whatsoever. Virtually, the only way to get rich in the USA today, is to utilize the efforts of other people. Now, if I dont explain that, I know how you are going to take it. Think about a typical owner of a company, say Bill Gates for example. He is rich because he has built a team of people, employees and partners and things. You think that he has to be there to make money, HELL NO! He utilizes the efforts of other people. This is the same concept that we use. But instead of having employees to utilize, you have people who are motivated because they have the same opportunity that you do. Anyone can out-earn anyone in this company.

Finally, I am not legally able to say that Genesis cures cancer or anything else. But what I can say is that the ingredients inside of our Genesis have killed cancer in all 3 stages of its development. So to answer your question, there are reports about the ingredients and what they have been known to do. I can send you all of this information if you want me to. In conclusion, if anyone wants more information about this from someone who knows what they are talking about, I would be more than happy to help out. There is a saying, "the empty can rattles the loudest". That is all I can say about people who complain about something they know nothing about. Thanks
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#32 Consumer Comment

Sigh....

AUTHOR: Mica - (U.S.A.)

Mark
Why do I have to do this. Okay Trump is not a multi billonaire. Does he have more money than I do (well yes). In 2005 Forbe's magazine listed his worth at 2.9. bil dollars (go to goole and type world's richest people) you can find those results.

Why is this important? It is important, because it speaks to how these people (mlm's work). They give you claims and quotes that are either taken out of context or out right.... If a company wants to grow (ethicaly) they would try to police their employees and branches. This company (and others like it) hide behind the the thought that everyone is an owner operator, and therefore cannot be controlled. They wink,or even promote these types of actions. Is it any wonder that DS-Max, this company, and many others out, use this employment scam. Come on people! This is a pattern out there it is not anything random.

Now look I do know some people who have gone like emerald in the oldie but goodie quixtar/amway thing. Believe me when I say it has taken a huge cost (on their morals). To make money in these things you have to start using your friends and family members, even when (eventually) you find out that using people is the "key" to the buss.

One more thing Mark, has there been any published studies on the benifits of the genesis juice the Symmety tries to get people to buy at 56 dollars a bottle?
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#33 Consumer Comment

response to amie and mica

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

Amie, I cant believe how thick you are, you choose which parts of what I say to talk about, then blow it way out of proportion. When I said, "you may have been mislead", I wasn't saying that is what we do, I said that there might be some people who might do that, key word might. You just dont get it, we are all independent, everyone is different in how we reach people. I am not even leaving these rebuttals to argue with you because I know that is pointless, i am leaving these rebuttals so maybe some OPEN-MINDED people will hear the real information.

Mica, all I did was watch the Letterman show one night, I didn't pay attention to the information on the show. I wish I would have now, because I could use that. I know that it is hard to take my word for it, but I did see it. Also, I wasn't trying to say that Mr. Trump was the end all/know all, I just figured since he is a multi-BILLIONAIRE, he might know a little bit on how to make money. Thanks.
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#34 Consumer Comment

Please be more specific!!!

AUTHOR: Mica - (U.S.A.)

Mark, you had said that on the Letterman show, Donald Trump stated that he would be involved in this type (meaning MLM) marketing. If you could, please, give me post the show number/date and time, so that I may get a transcript (or video) to see if the incident really happened/ and the context it was spoken in. Moreover, is Trump really the end all/know all of business knowledge?
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#35 Consumer Comment

Ubelievable

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Mark from Cedar Springs ADMITS to the fact that they are deceptive in their advertisements, but still encourages people to join in this "business."

Give me a break.

This is a scam, a pyramid scheme, and is a waste of time, money and effort. Don't waste your time with this dishonest and deceptive company!
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#36 Consumer Comment

Ubelievable

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Mark from Cedar Springs ADMITS to the fact that they are deceptive in their advertisements, but still encourages people to join in this "business."

Give me a break.

This is a scam, a pyramid scheme, and is a waste of time, money and effort. Don't waste your time with this dishonest and deceptive company!
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#37 Consumer Comment

Ubelievable

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

Mark from Cedar Springs ADMITS to the fact that they are deceptive in their advertisements, but still encourages people to join in this "business."

Give me a break.

This is a scam, a pyramid scheme, and is a waste of time, money and effort. Don't waste your time with this dishonest and deceptive company!
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#38 Consumer Comment

people

AUTHOR: Mark - (U.S.A.)

My name is Mark, and I work with symmetry. What you said in your post about misleading in the ads may be true, but please try to remember that anyone can enroll in the company. Good people as well as bad people. Some people will do some questionable things. I apologize that you felt mislead, because I understand that that can very well happen, but please dont bash Symmetry over it. Symmetry is an awesome company. Just try not to confuse the fact that the people distribute the companies products, they might not always be as ethical as the company is.

I am sorry that you had a bad experience though. It really isn't a scam though. I can see how through not understanding the industry, someone could view it negatively, but if you really look into it, Multi-level Marketing is the best way for the average person, with a good work ethic, to get ahead financially. Donald Trump, when he was on the Letterman show, said that if he lost everything, that he would start over by getting involved in Network Marketing. After he said that, everyone in the crowd started laughing. Mr. Trump then went on to say, "that is why I am up here and you guys are out there". Obviously Mr. Trump knows how to build a business. Sorry, I kind of went off point.

Bottom line, i am sorry you had a bad experience, but before you start bashing, just try to figure out who to bash, before jumping to conclusions. Thanks
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#39 Consumer Comment

Good job!

AUTHOR: Amie - (U.S.A.)

This company needs every complaint in the world about them. One of the branches here in Michigan, "Majestic Innovations" calls people and asks if they are interested in full or part time employment.

File complaints with your State Attorney General, and the local BBB that the company is in!

This is the most deceitful and dishonest company in the world.
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