TOD - Team Of Destiny ripoff Las Vegas Nevada

Hate to break it to you, but the last three people I just signed up as downline under me, it only cost them around $60 each to sign up and get an IBO # via Quixtar.

There are so many "Teams" out there that inflate the price to get started with "Quixtar & their team" It seems to range from $180 - $300 some. When I sign up people I tell them it's about $60 to sign up with an 'optional intro started pack' that's about $70. So far no one has "opted" for the starter product pack. I don't shun them or not train them because they didn't buy into everything, i.e. products, "tools", meetings, ect.

And I know everyone here is going to tell me that I'm not going to 'grow' a big business because I don't "plug them into a system". Well only time will tell who's making money and who's "investing money" into a "system that you need to have."

Jason

Hate to break it to you, but the last three people I just signed up as downline under me, it only cost them around $60 each to sign up and get an IBO # via Quixtar.

There are so many "Teams" out there that inflate the price to get started with "Quixtar & their team" It seems to range from $180 - $300 some. When I sign up people I tell them it's about $60 to sign up with an 'optional intro started pack' that's about $70. So far no one has "opted" for the starter product pack. I don't shun them or not train them because they didn't buy into everything, i.e. products, "tools", meetings, ect.

And I know everyone here is going to tell me that I'm not going to 'grow' a big business because I don't "plug them into a system". Well only time will tell who's making money and who's "investing money" into a "system that you need to have."

Jason

Hate to break it to you, but the last three people I just signed up as downline under me, it only cost them around $60 each to sign up and get an IBO # via Quixtar.

There are so many "Teams" out there that inflate the price to get started with "Quixtar & their team" It seems to range from $180 - $300 some. When I sign up people I tell them it's about $60 to sign up with an 'optional intro started pack' that's about $70. So far no one has "opted" for the starter product pack. I don't shun them or not train them because they didn't buy into everything, i.e. products, "tools", meetings, ect.

And I know everyone here is going to tell me that I'm not going to 'grow' a big business because I don't "plug them into a system". Well only time will tell who's making money and who's "investing money" into a "system that you need to have."

Jason

Hate to break it to you, but the last three people I just signed up as downline under me, it only cost them around $60 each to sign up and get an IBO # via Quixtar.

There are so many "Teams" out there that inflate the price to get started with "Quixtar & their team" It seems to range from $180 - $300 some. When I sign up people I tell them it's about $60 to sign up with an 'optional intro started pack' that's about $70. So far no one has "opted" for the starter product pack. I don't shun them or not train them because they didn't buy into everything, i.e. products, "tools", meetings, ect.

And I know everyone here is going to tell me that I'm not going to 'grow' a big business because I don't "plug them into a system". Well only time will tell who's making money and who's "investing money" into a "system that you need to have."

Jason

Victor,
Those are some great questions!
I just wanted you to know that the reason that TEAM had trouble marketing their leadership development system was because they were associated with Quixtar (AKA Quixsand). The reason people had trouble in TEAM, and the reason that it was looked on as a tool scam, is because the products that Quixtar sold were WAY overpriced!

TEAM had been fighting the pricing issue for years, but it wasn't working. So on August 9th, the founders tried to resign from Quixtar peacefully. This didn't work, they were fired instead. The following months had thousands of TEAM members resigning also. I believe the number was somewhere between 100-200 thousand members resigning, or letting their membership not renew at the end of the year.

On Feb 9th 2008, the founders will no longer be held by their 6 month non-compete contract. (all this can be found out at various websites now, like freetheibo.com, or other sites) What does this mean???

Well, I'm no expert, but... ;)
-Start to look for the TEAM system to be marketed to corporations for Leadership development. They are now a 'Leadership Development Service Provider.' Start to look for more top selling books sold to the general public, not just internal to TEAM. Much like 'Launching the Leadership Revolution' that hit number 1 on the Wall Street Journals best selling list in the business class. (The authors are donating 100% of the profits of this book to charity - forever!)
-Start to look for a business that sells products that are competitive with Wal-Mart pricing strategy. For prices that you just can't beat.

I'm have no idea what the future will hold, or what direction it will go, but I can tell you to continue to be skeptical, but be honest with yourself. I think you are going to start to like what you see in TEAM.
:)

So Theresa are you saying when you go to a Team meeting they tell you up front that the big money in Team formally (TOD = Team Of Deception) is made from the sale of motivational tools and seminars? It's funny that you mention such companies as Supercuts, AMCO Transmissions, McDonalds business and franchises and how they make money on training. This may be true but what you forget to mention is that the most if not all the profit of these franchises are from selling products to folks outside the franchises. They do the initial training (notice I didn't say neverending continous weekly training) so their employees can produce a product that will make the money! The money is not in the training itself! Here let me write it out for you so you can clearly understand!

AMCO makes most of it's money by selling and working on transmissions to the general public. Team makes most of it's money on selling motivational tools and seminar and functions to people within the Team pyramid"
McDonalds makes most of it's money by selling Hamburgers to the general public. Team makes most of it's money on selling motivational tools and seminar and functions to people within the Team pyramid.
Supercuts makes most of it's money by giving haircuts to the general public. Team makes most of it's money on selling motivational tools and seminar and functions to people within the Team pyramid.

McDonalds would be more like Team if...
"Potential McDonald owners are told the big money comes from the selling of Hamburgers and getting others to sell Hamburgers"
"They only sold burgers to other people who owned McDonalds"
"They had the endless book of the month on how to make a better burger, endless tape or two of the week on how to make a better burger, endless quartery functions lasting till 2:00 a.m. to motivate you to sell and make this better burger, and continous weekly meetings on how to make a better burger as well as how your burger sales are going"
"Make sure you don't listen to any negative information.. may keep you from reaching your dreams where you can have thousands of people below you with McDonalds franchinses so you can sell them tapes about selling and making burgers"
"Become the Burger King (Pun Intended) where you can give speaches for Burger King Wanna Bees on how to sell and make better burgers.. making thousands of dollars in speaking fees."

Remember "Tools may be optional, but so is success!"

Here are two questions for you.
If Team is such a great motivational organization, why don't they sell their product "Motivational Tools and Seminars" to people outside of Team?
Why the deception when attending a Team meeting about the source of the real money?

You have two choices here Theresa.. you can honestly answer my questions or you can attack me like most IBOs do trying to defend this so called business.

Q:What does the WSJ have to say about Team?

A:Team is in an early stage of development and isn't on WSJ's radar yet. Plus, anything that's considered a network marketing business is probably considered "taboo" so I doubt that until Team is generating billions in revenue for its IBOs, will WSJ sigh enough to admit they ought to notice it.

Q: Why does Team try to hide information and stay secret?
A: Good question. Hey, here's a thought. Ask yourself why Coca Cola won't talk about their formula, or why Google won't discuss their search algorithms, or why Intel won't discuss their next generation chip, or why KFC hides their fried chicken recipe? (please)

Q:Why won't Team let me copy my friend's tapes/CDs and help me save money?

A:I can't believe someone actually asked this. But I would suggest to anyone that has a friend or friends that want to join Team together and purchase one set of training materials (to save money), to do this. 1) Call McDonalds corporation. 2) Tell them all of you want to open a McDonalds franchise. 3)Then tell McDonalds that you only want one person to go to Hamburger University training and that the others will just copy his/her notes, and duplicate the tapes/CDs/Videos when he/she gets back and train off of those. 4) Then ask McDonalds to cut you a break on the training costs because you're only sending one person. Let's see how "understanding" McDonalds would be to that.

Q:Isn't Team making money off those training CDs and seminars?

A: Of course! It's a business!! Wake up! Wow, when Supercuts, McDonalds, Aamco Transmissions, and most every other franchise under the sun trains its new partners, guess what? They are making money off the training. Wow, big whoop. It just kills me how when its Quixtar or Team, ooohh it's bad, but for everyone else it's OK. No, Team is a business just like those other business. Oh, and by the way, Quixtar and Team training is OPTIONAL! For those other franchises it's not! But somehow people keep thinking that Quixtar and Team are the bad guys.

Q:How come I didn't make money with Team?

A:Team is a business venture. It's not a job and it's not a self-employed business. By all means, if you have a better way to make money (i.e. job for the rest of your life, or another self-employed type of business) go do it. You'll likely come to the same conclusion. The person responsible for your business success is you. But if it makes you feel better to play "victim" and play the "blame game" that's fine. It's entertaining to watch people ignore the possibility that they're responsible for anything they try.

Q: Why wouldn't the person who contacted me about Team answer all my questions over the phone?

A: Call McDonalds, ask them to tell you everything it takes to start their business over the phone.

Ok, I'm going to stop here because I think I've shown that the answer to most of these questions is based on the same idea. Ask your same question about some other franchise venture out there and you'll likely find that it's a silly question to begin with.

To those considering Team (formerly TOD), all I can say is this. If you were curious about starting a McDonalds, you'd ask a qualified person who is in the McDonalds business your questions and then make your own decision. Team is a business, just like McDonalds or any other reputable business so give them the same courtesy. Always consider the source.

Robert - Rochester, NY writes:

"None of these "100+" companies are "affilated" with Quixtar. Affiliated implies a partnership."

Robert, how long you were a member of Quixtar or the Team? If you were a never a member, please explain why anyone should believe what you write.

Let me explain the relationship between other companies such as Circuit City, Barnes & Noble, etc. and Quixtar. Since I've been a member for several months, I feel I'm qualified to answer this.

If you puchase products from CC, B&N, or another partner, you earn points and at month's end they are mulitplied by your bonus bracket to determine how much money you get from those purchases. Bottom line is that these partners allow Quixtar IBOs to navigate their own sites through the Quixtar portal and for each purchase, pay Quixtar and in turn Quixtar pays the purchasing IBO. Sounds like a partnership to me. No wait, Circuit City just donates the money to Quixtar because they want to be nice. (please).

Robert writes: "These companies sell their products to Quixtar, who inturn, has thier "IBOs" sell them to the unsuspecting public."

Actually, no, that's not what happens at all. If that were the case, then there would be no need for Quixtar to allow navigation to the partner store sites to allow direct IBO purchases.

Robert writes: "Quixtar is nothing more than a Walmart on the net."

Really? Wow. Let's see how similar they are.

- Walmart advertises. Quixtar does not.
- Walmart shares their profits with the Walton family. Quixtar shares it's profits with it's IBOs.
- Walmart must pay to support brick and mortar stores, lighting, shelf space, heating & cooling, store employees, store employee health insurance, attorneys to fight law suits, parking lots, all similar expenses for its Sam Clubs warehouses, and its fleet of Sam's Club/Walmart trucks. Quixtar does not.

Yes, although Walmart "on the net" doesn't have those expenses per se, their online services are subject to an infrastructure that does, and since the bulk of Walmart sales on done offline, their online services will for the foreseeable future play second fiddle to it's industrial world investment.

Robert writes: "TOD is nothing more than a sponsorship line in Quixtar - a motivation organization that sells thier "IBOs" (and one has to wonder just how "independent" these actually are) 50 cent tapes for 7-8 bucks each."

Robert please explain once again how your experience from TOD helps you arrive at this conclusion. Real skeptics ought to be asking you this in the same vain they mercilessly pick at every Quixtar/Team point.

By the way, training tapes/CDs are $6 each and always have been. You must have forgotten from all that time you were a member right?

Yes, Team does make a profit on training materials. PEOPLE, GET OVER IT! Find me a large legitimate business that doesn't have a training system and I'll show you a business that will fail very soon. Show me a business that doesn't make a profit off its training and I'll show you a fictitious business.

None of these "100+" companies are "affilated" with Quixtar. Affiliated implies a partnership. These companies sell their products to Quixtar, who inturn, has thier "IBOs" sell them to the unsuspecting public. Quixtar is nothing more than a Walmart on the net.

TOD is nothing more than a sponsorship line in Quixtar - a motivation organization that sells thier "IBOs" (and one has to wonder just how "independent" these actually are) 50 cent tapes for 7-8 bucks each.

Allow me to start out by saying that, as a Team member for several months, the reason most Team members don't respond to all this rhetoric, is because no matter what you say, or how much validation you offer, some skeptic will always doubt. And it's ok to doubt, but post as though you know things when you couldn't possibly know.

From what I see, the skeptic was never a member themselves, or the skeptic was a member for a month or two and thinks they understand it all. It's usually, like, "Yep I was a member for 3 weeks and saw EVERYTHING about the Team!" Just a word to the wise, doing something for 3 weeks or 10 weeks hardly makes ANYONE knowledgeable enough to know what something is "all about." But see, the problem with most is that few people will ever admit that they just don't know what they don't know. Most people want to project as though they know more from what little they do know. So for the record, I'll admit that I've been involved with the Team closely for several months and know quite a lot, but will only discuss what I know.

But before I continue, I'm writing this to all of those out there who are just looking for facts about an opportunity called the "Team" (formerly Team of Destiny). That's all. And I'm taking time away from my family to do it, so I hope something good comes from this (whether or not you decide that Team is for you).

I can't possibly respond to all the complaints in this thread, but I'll do the three most recent.

To "Chris" from Grand Jnc, CO: "Team of Destiny"? Even the name would make me run!"

Dear Chris,
It appears that you are weighing your opinion of Team (formerly Team of Desinty) heavily on it's name. If you were a stock broker, is this how you would pick stocks? Something tells me that your empahsis on an organization's name is not the brightest way to judge an organization. My guess is that you would pass on Fortune 500 companies like Yahoo!, Google, PepsiCo, Starbucks, Amazon, and Fiserv because, "those names are wierd." I suppose next you'll ask me, "Well, then why did they change their name?" Good question. They changed it to make it harder for people to search online and read lies about the organization from people who "think" they understand Team but don't. Sound familiar?

You wrote, "Mabey they can join up with the Superfriends and help to fight villians. "stop your evil deeds - we are the TEAM OF DESTINY" LOL;"

Please explain to me, how, if you knew very little about the compaines I mentioned above, you'd say "Yahoo! -- Oh yeah, that's a great name because it must be a company that makes money off of people that yell really loud." Or, "Google is an awesome name -- yeah, just from the word 'Google' I can really tell what the company does and it's very conservative and majestic."

You may not get the point of what I'm trying to say. After all, you did complain that an organization's name. Perhaps Amazon sounds "junglish?" But I hope others out there who are intelligent enough to look past a name (given that it's not insulting or vulgar) realize that your argument is a joke at best.

To "James" from Ludington, Michigan: The type of people that fall victim to pyramid schemes: - these folks never recognize the laws of probability and the impossibility of the scheme

Dear James,

You wrote, "However, what was unusual was the fact that whenever I attempted to learn what type of business he was involved with during the phone call, he seemed to avoid giving any details."

A legitimate concern. Since you are an inventor, allow me to ask you one thing. If you invented something that was unprecendented, appeared much like something else, seemed a little too good to be true, do you think you'd have better luck getting someone to understand your new invention by explaining over the phone, or by them seeing it in person? See, the reason why a Team member would rather talk to you in person is because 1) Team is an entrepreneurial venture. It requires one to think like an entreprenuer, not like an employee or self-employed person to have a higher chance at understanding it. It helps to be able to sketch out income vs. time graphs and so forth when explaining these things to someone. Now that's not to say you wouldn't have understood it verbally, but chances are most people won't. The first thing people think is, "What is this guy trying to sell?" Wrong already. That's the first reason why it makes more sense to discuss in person. 2) Most people try to equate something new and unprecedented with something they already know and understand. Hence this huge thread populated with comments about how Team is an MLM scheme when in the traditional understanding of MLMs, it's not. 3) Funny how you complain about it being vague, because even if it were explained in detail, should that be enough to convince you that you should commit to a new business idea? I would hope that regardless of whether the idea is presented vaguely on the phone or not, that you'd give it your due deligence and PREFER to speak to the person face-to-face for at least an hour regarding it. But who knows?

You wrote, "After the small talk is out of the way, the young man I did not know clearly wanted to do all the talking as if setting an example for my friend's son."

The reason for this is that the person who called you was new to the Team. He didn't understand enough about it yet to explain it well enough. At the time he called you, he likely felt that this business is worthwhile and would like present the opportunity to you so you could make your own decision. But at the meeting, he wanted his upline to explain it because his upline could explain it more clearly and likely answer your questions better. It's not much different than how recruiting works at a companies. The HR person may call you from a headhunter list, but when you get to the company to meet, you're likely talking to the person who will be your supervisor. Gee, why doesn't anyone question, "How come this person called me from company XYZ and now I'm talking to someone different?" For some reason, people make full sense of it because it's a company (the company must know what they're doing), but fail to make sense of it when it's the Team.

You wrote, "When I asked him what their business proposition was, I got vague descriptions of how companies like Wal-Mart rip people off, how there are so many middle men making money on the products you buy, and how much money people would save if they joined "TEAM" (as he referred to it). He also starting sketching little diagrams on a sheet of paper as he sat across from me at my desk, and even tried to write upside-down for me as if I were a 3rd grader."

First: If they told you that Wal-Mart tries to rip people off, one of two things happened. Either that Team member said something they shouldn't have. Team standards and ethics do not condone the belittling and libeling of companies or people. Or, you took what that Team member said out of context and can not accurately recall what they truly said about Wal-Mart.

Second: They said there are so many middlemen making money on the products you buy? Well, what do you think James? I'd appreciate to read your response on how that's not true.

Third: They said how much money people would save if they joined "TEAM." I have to laugh. It's OK for stores to tell you, "You'll save money shopping with us!" but if a person comes to your house and tells you that, oh somethings up with that. Please direct me to your post elsewhere on this website where you just HAVE to mention, "Yeah, and the salesman at Wal-Mart said I'd save money. I don't know, somethings fishy here!" Puleeeze.

Fourth: He started to sketch diagrams...and tried to write upside-down for me as if I were a 3rd grader. Well James, you know maybe they just ought to put that guy in jail for trying to be nice so you could better understand his sketches. Yeah, trying to draw something for someone so they can see it better -- oh yeah, he's a scam artist alright. Sorry, but I can't help you here. If you're compelled to feel that someone who tries draw something for you to help you see it better is insulting you, then by all means, believe he's insulting you.

You wrote, "From the little diagrams, arrows, symbols; all arriving by script, within minutes I recognize a pyramid scheme reinforced by religious behavior. I commented that "it looks like Amway," but he denied Amway and that "TEAM" was way better than Amway."

James -- Amway sells products. Team does not sell products. And "religious behavior?" I really fail to see anything in your post that validates "religious" or "cult-like" behavior. A person presents you with a business idea and all of sudden he's part of a cult and acts religiously? You know, I had a gentleman stop by my house and said he was part of some "landscaping cult." Talked about how he could make my lawn look better and promised I'd save money and you know what? He dressed in a flannel shirt and jeans just like his friend was dressed!! Beware!

You wrote, "Everything you need to know about the nature of multi-level marketing and pyramid schemes like "TEAM" and their ilk, is contained in the previous 18 months of comments and rebuttals on both sides in this column. You can definitely see only certain people have the mentality to fall for it, to ignore the overwhelming odds against them, ..."

Hmmm, "mentality to fall for it, to ignore overwhelming odds against them." You know James, I can't help seeing similarities to people that "fall for" trying to invent stuff. I mean, you have to have the "mentality" to "fall for" spending day after day, and night after night trying to come up with something new that could generate money. By the way, how much money do you generate in your first month or two in trying to invent something new? If it's less than what I could earn working a McDonalds, then sounds like it could be a big waste of time. By the way, are the odds pretty easily in your favor that you'll invent something revolutionary every few months? Because, you know, if the odds are against you, sounds like you're just "igoring" the facts and falling for something that's a waste of time.

To "Timothy" from Valparaiso, Indiana: It's just too easy

You wrote, "Rather than expressing the reality, the "as big as you make it" statement is a cop-out, an excuse. Because when you ultimately fail and somebody asks your upline why you failed, he will say "because they didn't put enough work into it" or "he didn't work the system to its fullest potential" or some such garbage."

Timothy, if you failed at a franchise business where others have succeeded, and those who succeeded told you, "you didn't put enough work into it", or "you didn't work the system to its fullest potential", you honestly feel that those responses don't make sense or as you put it, are "garbage?" Sounds like you're just crying "victim." Let's make this simple. Instead of Team, let's say you tried to open a McDonalds.

"Yeah, I open a McDonalds and I'm already $1.3 million dollars in the hole because that's how much they scammed me to open up this burger joint. And they tried to tell me I could be as successful as I wanted to be, but that statement is a cop-out because it didn't work for me. It's all McDonalds fault!"

Gee Timothy, if this business model is successful for so many (and I don't know how many, but I've personally met dozens so don't complain because I don't know the exact number), but it doesn't work for you, then why is Team's fault? Does a business model have to work for 100% of the people for it to be worthy of consideration? If not 100%, then how many? 50%, 75%, 99%? Or is it good only as long as YOU can do it? Please, just grow up.

You wrote, "The problem is that the system is NOT designed for success." This statement is sheer brilliance. The success of Team (as in almost every business) is dependent upon a successful system. If the system didn't work, it would only make sense that those who decide policy, would change the system so that the organization grows. If they didn't do this, then they would actually be allowing their business system to kill their own organization. But since, they are NOT doing this, and the size of the organization is growing (as indicated by the larger numbers of members I see at functions), common sense would tell me that the system is working. Perhaps it just didn't work for you and you decided it best to make a generalization from your sole experience.

You wrote, "Another statement that needs addressing: "You can listen to what the speakers are telling you. They have the results as they are not working." Wipe the fog from your glasses and see what's really going on. Those speakers ARE working. And what's their job? Convincing YOU that THEY actually achieved success by doing what they want you to do. But the whole thing is B.S. NONE of those speakers achieved ANY success by doing what the IBOs are doing. They achieved success by being adept at LYING TO PEOPLE and convincing people to PAY THEM to hear their lies!"

Wow, there's so much ignorance here, I really don't know where to start.

First: "Those speakers ARE working."

Yes Timothy they are. But unless we were to strap a video camera to their butts and watch them like "The Osbournes," nothing will convince you that they really are speaking at Team functions 1) Because they do so by choice 2) That they get paid probably $50-$150 to do so, and 3) They're doing it because they want to help others in the same manner that they were helped. Sounds like because you (or someone you knew) weren't succesful at the business, that those who are, are liars. This is what happens when someone hasn't been a member long enough (a few months at least) to see someone go from not making money to making money. Kind of like if I walked up to Bill Gates just as he was completing DOS and stuck around him for a month. "Yep, that Bill Gates is a scam artist, he told me DOS would lead to other operating systems and he'd one day make all types of money. I could tell after a month he wasn't making squat. He lied to me!"

Second: "So they've convinced you that the people who complain don't know about the program? Believe me, we know. Many of your fellow readers are ex-IBOs. Many of them know somebody who was exploited by this scam."

Read the reply above. Being an ex-IBO doesn't mean much. Oh yeah, and somebody who "knew somebody", yeah that's real knowledge right there. You're the same person that says, "I worked for this company for two months and I know everything about it and I can tell you they stink. Don't go work for them." Yep, that's why the company is still in business and growing because one disgruntled ex-employee is the ONLY person who REALLY knows the deal about that company." What bothers me is not so much that a person can cry victim out of ignorance, but that there's likely people out there that will believe someone because they had a short experience with something and they're not mature enough to point the blame at themselves.

You wrote, "You said it yourself: "They are working with the Teams Co-founder Chris Brady who IS a process engineer" (emphasis added to show absurdity). In other words, the Team's co-founder is still working a 9 to 5 job, right?"

Uh no Timothy, wrong. Chris Brady left his job at GM about 5 years ago. I've met him personally and he is down to earth and polite. He is a real person and he admittedly devotes about 40 hours a month to the Team business out of his volition.

You wrote, "And finally: "I knew lots of people b-4 I got in who were not free and now they are." Nope, you know lots of slaves who've been tricked into thinkng that they're free."

It's obvious that even if what this person said were true, that as long as you couldn't make it work for you in a few weeks time, it was bunk. So I guess it will be just as meaningless to you if I said the same. It appears that you've positioned your mindset to believe that if a business opportunity didn't work for you, that 1) you are a victim, and 2) that it's the business' fault. If you're not a victim, I'd be happy to hear about everything you did according to what they ask you to do and how each thing failed. Please share in detail because I'd really like every one to hear just how much you know about the Team and its system.

Well, I hope this explains why people don't know more about the Team. First, it is very different, and doesn't work like a traditional product selling business. Secondly, when a tiny bit of information gets out, everyone becomes an expert. Third, because it's a business built around generating passive residual income (ie. it's not a job), people that don't make money in their first year who don't understand the business, cry victim and quit. Kind of like how Microsoft, McDonalds, Google, and so forth made TONS of money right away right? I mean didn't they? And fourth, I just spent about 3 1/2 hours typing all of this and I only responded to three people. It's just ridiculous to try and respond to all the disinformation. Most Team members who truly understand how Team works understand that trying to explain Team to everyone is like swimming up current with toothpick for a paddle. Thus, it takes someone like me who's fed up wtih reading all the lies, a willingness to spend hours to try and make some sense to others. For all those who I didn't get to respond to, all I can say is that I understand that Team isn't for everyone, but unless you REALLY know how Team works, you base your motivation to "help" others on what you think, and that's dangerous. Unfortunately, Team is a people business and the members that are in it may not always explain it best. For those who may have been exposed to Team, but an IBO who didn't know best how to explain it, all I can say is sorry, because the structure and system truly do make sense. But to some extent, it's unfortunate that Team is partnered with Quixtar because that makes some people label it an MLM when it's not, that Team is about pushing product when it's not, and that Team is traditional business, when it's not.

In the next rebuttal, I will try to explain more about how the Team works.

These companies you speak of have affiliated with Quixtar, not TOD. TOD is nothing more than a for profit Motivational Organization that gets its profits by sucking the money out of its members. These companies are more than happy to use Quixtar as yet another portal to distribute their goods. None of these companies high power Lawyers are endorsing the business opportunity that Quixtar offers. How many of these Lawyers and CEO's of these companies have hopped on this great opportunity? None! Again, showing all the companies affiliated with Quixtar for distributing its merchandise is just another technique used to try and validate this MLM scheme. Did you know that Amway had teamed up with Enron to market Electricity, and Amway partnered up with MCI/Worldcom to offer telephone services?

You have that right about the Team changing lives everywhere everyday, credit card bills maxed out, lost money, lost time, lost sleep, aggravation, loss of self esteem, strained family relationships, lost friendships, fights with spouses, bankruptcies.

Why would anybody in their right mind get involved with a company called "Team of Destiny"? The name sounds cultish right from the get go. I had to laugh out loud when I first read about it. Mabey they can join up with the Superfriends and help to fight villians. "stop your evil deeds - we are the TEAM OF DESTINY" LOL

Read the postings from the people in the "TEAM" - there are numerous references to writing down they thing you hope to aquire. Business is about finding out what others want and providing it, not spending time pontificating about what you hope to acheive.

Quit dreaming and start working.

The rebuttals are right that mention the optionals. Seminars & meetings & the tapes & CDs & whatever are all optional. It's encouraged, but not required. Any groups who say it is are lying. Also to the one who posted about pyramid schemes & MLMs those are illegal. This however is not. Why? Because anyone who is willing to work hard, and harder than those above them, will make more money than those above them in the so-called upline.

The only thing that has me confused is the $250.35 sign-up fee. Unless they're including a whole lot of things such as tape that you shouldn't be required to pay for when signing up they're charging more than what's required. That's their choice since it's their business but it's not the way to run it since as an IBO you'll likely find out. I paid less than $100 for my IBO sign-up. And considering the samples they send when you sign up & the $40 annual renewal as part of it it was plenty reasonable. So I have no idea where the rest of that $250.35 is going to.

You didn't join them, good for you. You made a choice after looking into it & that's good. It's better than those who cry brainswashing after not doing their homework. But you can't include things that are optional when you go off on something like this. The sign-up seems to be the only possible part that'd belong there.

Okay so that most of the people with negitive comments about TOD/TEAM say in the begining, I am not in yet..well then..if your not in, you have no right to say anything. If you haven't tried it, don't post comments about it. The team and its founders are the best thing that has happened. And lets just pick three out of the now 100+ companies that are affiliated with us, Disney, Office Depot, Nascar. They each have about or around 3000 high powered lawyers, so thats 6000 lawyers that checked team out before signing with us, not only did that NOT find anything wrong, they encouraged their compaines to sign with us because the business plan was so great! So let me ask you, where are your 6000 high powered lawyers to back up your opinion? What, you don't have that many? Ha didn't think so. Before you flap your jaws, take a look deeper into the facts. The Team is changing lives every where every day, and as for the negitive family memeber, leave your family alone, if their want to change their lives and be stay at home parents, and have wonderful things happen to them, let them, they are adults! They don't need you babysitting them. Don't take away a chance of a life time!

THANKS>

A son of a friend of mine called me a couple days ago and asked if he could speak to me about a business opportunity. This would not be unusual since I am a professional inventor and many people seek my advice on all sorts of things. However, what was unusual was the fact that whenever I attempted to learn what type of business he was involved with during the phone call, he seemed to avoid giving any details.

Because I know this young man, and that I am great friends with his father, I agreed to a meeting the next day. When he arrives, he has another young man with him, and they are both very well dressed, well mannered, and obviously prepared for a polite proposal of some sort. After the small talk is out of the way, the young man I did not know clearly wanted to do all the talking as if setting an example for my friend's son. This stilted arrangement was my first clue that I was dealing with an unnatural "cult like" organization of some sort. When I asked him what their business proposition was, I got vague descriptions of how companies like Wal-Mart rip people off, how there are so many middle men making money on the products you buy, and how much money people would save if they joined "TEAM" (as he referred to it). He also starting sketching little diagrams on a sheet of paper as he sat across from me at my desk, and even tried to write upside-down for me as if I were a 3rd grader.

From the little diagrams, arrows, symbols; all arriving by script, within minutes I recognize a pyramid scheme reinforced by religious behavior. I commented that "it looks like Amway," but he denied Amway and that "TEAM" was way better than Amway.

Because I've been self employed for 33 years doing exactly what I love to do, I can see that what he is offering me is a total waste of my time for nickels and dimes and I see through the scheme as easy as window glass, which leads me to the title of my comment, "What type of people fall for pyramid schemes?"

Friends, this is a very interesting study indeed. Everything you need to know about the nature of multi-level marketing and pyramid schemes like "TEAM" and their ilk, is contained in the previous 18 months of comments and rebuttals on both sides in this column. You can definitely see only certain people have the mentality to fall for it, to ignore the overwhelming odds against them, and to incessantly adhere to "scripted" thinking no matter what the facts are.

Of all the previous comments, the ones I enjoyed the most were made by James from Cape Town, Timothy from Valporaiso, Lorranine from Birmingham, and Laslo from Chesterland. They all did a great job of trying to help these obviously "self made victims" of such schemes that only a handful of skilled, top ranking liars ever get rich from. For some reason, these folks never recognize the laws of probability and the impossibility of the scheme. But as Laslo pointed out so authoritatively, the ongoing loss of money can make even the most stubborn dreamer wake up after a few years.

I honestly can't believe what I am reading here!

It's been over twenty years since my wife and I quietly exited our AMWAY business. Reading this thread in its entirety has brought back so many memories. So many memories.

I never heard of either Quixtar or the TOD until yesterday while doing research on this site regarding another, unrelated matter. I was intrigued as I read about this organization the TOD, Team of Destiny, etc, as it looked familiar to me. With each post I read I began to realize the association AMWAY, QUIXTAR, MLM's, hmmmm.

Folks, nothing has changed! The terms (Diamonds, Up-Line, PV, BV, J.O.B's) the Books, tapes, seminars. The over priced products. The dreams and goals of honest, decent people manipulated as a means to an end. The arguments for sticking with it. The logic and shtick used to justify the overwhelming failure. Nothing has changed really except the name(s) and the platform on which it is presented.

I mentioned that we quietly exited our business twenty-plus years ago. We were deeply involved in our organization. We attended the meetings, the weekend festivities, we worked the plan, bought the tapes and books, bought the soap, sold the soap. We were serious as were our family and friends that we involved in our business.

We did it all, and for all intents and purposes we were considered up-and-coming as young Direct Distributors. We were the example; winners and we played the part perfectly. We played along and tried our best to ignore the nagging in the pit of our stomach.

We knew that what we preached and pretended to be was a sham. We could see that the majority of the people we brought into the business (either directly ourselves or in assisting our dedicated down-lines) would never see the success we promised. We knew that if we could continue to fake it we would eventually make it. We could see how our successful up-lines pulled it off and we knew that we could as well.

We could even pretend to be the model Christian young successful couple we were billed as. You see, it was a fun act. It was fun to stand up and motivate, teach and preach. It was a rush and satisfying while we kept our conscience at bay. But eventually the need to be truthful about who and what we were drove us to be honest with ourselves.

The choices we made back then were private choices made for private reasons and had to do with honesty and integrity and our exhaustion over our hypocrisy. As we phased out we were chastised, alienated, ostracized and despised by the believers. When we tried to maintain contact with those that we thought of as friends, we found that we were considered evil stinking-thinking people that needed to be avoided if their own business was to succeed. We didn't want to pretend to be born again. We didn't want to pretend that we cherished our life in the cult.

We wanted to build a REAL business based on REAL business principals and leave the manipulation behind, but we could not. Without it, the model didn't work.

For those of you dead against the TOD, relax. Those that blindly support this model in cult-like zombie brainwashed fashion will nearly ALL come to the same realization as you in time. No matter how logical your argument, no matter how compelling the facts and no matter how overwhelming the truth, the dream burns so strong for now that you cannot shake them. They can only shake themselves, and will do so in time. The intoxication does wear off eventually.

For those of you dedicated to the cause and the model, relax. No amount of shtick will shake the stink'n-thinkers and win them over to your way of thinking.

I still can't believe how this model has evolved.

I really do not know what to make of this.

I have been reading alot of negative remarks about TEAM and alot of positives.

I guess what I'd really like to know is, if this were a scam, why is it still available to those who wish to sign and if it were some type of scam, why hasn't it been shut down??

Yes, I have been approached by this program by a relative and I am really skeptical.

Is there anyone out there that can honestly say that they have been with this group for, let's say, a year or so, that actually is making any money? Sure would like to read it on here!

I really do not know what to make of this.

I have been reading alot of negative remarks about TEAM and alot of positives.

I guess what I'd really like to know is, if this were a scam, why is it still available to those who wish to sign and if it were some type of scam, why hasn't it been shut down??

Yes, I have been approached by this program by a relative and I am really skeptical.

Is there anyone out there that can honestly say that they have been with this group for, let's say, a year or so, that actually is making any money? Sure would like to read it on here!

I really do not know what to make of this.

I have been reading alot of negative remarks about TEAM and alot of positives.

I guess what I'd really like to know is, if this were a scam, why is it still available to those who wish to sign and if it were some type of scam, why hasn't it been shut down??

Yes, I have been approached by this program by a relative and I am really skeptical.

Is there anyone out there that can honestly say that they have been with this group for, let's say, a year or so, that actually is making any money? Sure would like to read it on here!

I really do not know what to make of this.

I have been reading alot of negative remarks about TEAM and alot of positives.

I guess what I'd really like to know is, if this were a scam, why is it still available to those who wish to sign and if it were some type of scam, why hasn't it been shut down??

Yes, I have been approached by this program by a relative and I am really skeptical.

Is there anyone out there that can honestly say that they have been with this group for, let's say, a year or so, that actually is making any money? Sure would like to read it on here!

Quixtar is not a pyramid. It uses the shape of a franchising business. Like McDonald's.

People on top make the most money. Wow! Who'da thunk it? Do you work? Anywhere? Do you have a boss? Does, perhaps, your boss have a boss?

I work at Hy-Vee, a large supermarket chain store in Iowa. I have a boss. He has a boss, and his boss has a boss. I would not be suprised if every generation of work you went up (from boss to boss) the pay increased.

Yeah, you have to pay a setup fee. I personally paid $120. It showed me exactly where my money was going. Quixtar is guaranteed for 6 months.

The theory behind it is that companies can pay you for shopping online and promoting online shopping. That is why you have to buy stuff monthly. How did you expect to make money without making money? The companies save money when the majority of consumers transfer their business to the internet. The company no longer has to pay as extensive labor, building, land, etc. fees.

I don't know about you, but I intended on spending my money on most of these products at Wal-Mart anyway. When was the last time Wal-Mart paid you to shop there?

I heard about a QUIXTAR "RIP-OFF" involving Christians. I don't know about this. The site is primarily noted for its business, not its religion. You are your own boss. You do not have to listen to anyone else. Everything is optional.

I am currently at the bottom of the chain right now. I do not mind it, because I know that if I can recruit enough people to do the same thing I am, then I will be good off.

Why hasn't this seemingly perfect business wiped out Wal-Mart? There are currently about 2.1 million IBOs. There are 6-some billion people in the world. The majority of the population has never heard of this type of possibility.

It is a completely fair setup. It is what you make of it. Its primarily negative people, like on this site, who don't try to make it work, who just b***h, who mess it up for the rest of us.

Do some research. In 20 years, when the majority of the population is involved in eCommerce, and the world has resorted to the Internet to base its stores, you'll see. But hey, what can I say? I can't predict the future. If I have to make a guess, I'd say that the downfall of these types of programs are the people who slander and libel it.

Quixtar is as good as you make it.

"Team of Destiny is as big as you make it to be."

That oddly constructed sentence is a good lead-in to a rebuttal filled with nothing but empty rhetoric from a hopeful newbie who is buying into the tales hook, line, and sinker.

Rather than expressing the reality, the "as big as you make it" statement is a cop-out, an excuse. Because when you ultimately fail and somebody asks your upline why you failed, he will say "because they didn't put enough work into it" or "he didn't work the system to its fullest potential" or some such garbage.

The reality is that more than 98% of "team members" will fail out or give up within a short period of time. And not because they didn't "dream big enough." The problem is that the system is NOT designed for success. In fact, it is PERFECTLY designed to suck the money out of YOUR pockets. But hey, at least you made some good friends, right? And you only lost a few hundred dollars and a whole lot of valuable time in the process!

Another statement that needs addressing: "You can listen to what the speakers are telling you. They have the results as they are not working."

Wipe the fog from your glasses and see what's really going on. Those speakers ARE working. And what's their job? Convincing YOU that THEY actually achieved success by doing what they want you to do. But the whole thing is B.S. NONE of those speakers achieved ANY success by doing what the IBOs are doing. They achieved success by being adept at LYING TO PEOPLE and convincing people to PAY THEM to hear their lies!

It would be a beautiful thing if it weren't so d**n ugly.

And finally: "You should not knock something you don't know about."

So they've convinced you that the people who complain don't know about the program? Believe me, we know. Many of your fellow readers are ex-IBOs. Many of them know somebody who was exploited by this scam.

As for me, I spent several months objectively researching Quixtar for an academic article. I read the Kiyosaki. I attended the meetings. I listened to the CDs. I did price comparisons. I saw FIRST HAND that NOBODY was making any money, except for the orchestrators of the "team." And they were only making money by hawking garbage "motivational tools" at the end of every meeting. Even the uplines were still working their 9 to 5 jobs. PLUS they were putting all this time into making $30 a night by selling CDs. So where's the freedom? Where's the time with your family?

You said it yourself: "They are working with the Teams Co-founder Chris Brady who IS a process engineer" (emphasis added to show absurdity). In other words, the Team's co-founder is still working a 9 to 5 job, right? So I ask again, if you're not making enough money to leave your day job, then you're pretty much working two gigs, so WHERE'S THE FREEDOM? WHERE'S ALL THAT FREE TIME?

And finally: "I knew lots of people b-4 I got in who were not free and now they are." Nope, you know lots of slaves who've been tricked into thinkng that they're free.

** Team of Destiny is as big as you make it to be. If you want to make money you can. You can listen to what the speakers are telling you. They have the results as they are not working. You can make as much or as little money as you want. You don't have to buy any of the stuff they offer or go to any of the meetings. It is completely optioinal. Like Jennifer from Michigan puts it you put into it what you want out of it. You can say that what people say on here is what you hear at the meetings or you can check it out for yourself. You should not knock something you don't know about. Even if you don't make money from this business you get great association with great people who have a great outlook on like. The one who posted who posted as team IWIATT. She has great results. That team is doing phenomenal. They are working with the Teams Co-founder Chris Brady who is a process engineer. People left and right from that team are making money and coming home to their families and thier freedom. I am not on that Team but I edify that Team because they are producing results and money. Yes it takes a person of intelligence and a dream to do this business if you have that and you are hungry for freedom then you will do well if not then enjoy your 9-5 job and never seeing your family. As for people who are quoting prices you should get your facts right. It is not much to get in and the people you meet are amazing individuals with a great perspective on life. I knew lots of people b-4 I got in who were not free and now they are.

Love to you all,
You are only as big as your dream!!!
Christina**
Team Gladiator!!

i'm really confused, cuz i looked up for info about mary kay and i run up to this long list of TOD who are these people and what kind of company is this? first i thought it was a team that was created from mary kay cuz i know some unit do name them self but why do they have such a bad rep? and i sure hope they don't represent a part of mary kay. and all these negative stuff, like the news is not negative enough. i'm tired of people being stupid and once they feel on something they don't blame themself for being suck but started to point finger at others, if you're going to be bitter, go complain to your mom, if you really have a real report on the rip off than please post here, not your stupid remark about people's spelling. redicious. grow up people. and keith looks like you did your home work with the 5 pointer, but you sounded like you're just bitter that mary kay are made for women who whats to have fun and enjoy their job, what kind of company would work with you when you're party all the time! so open your mind and enlighen yourself, if you like to find a company that will baby you, and you can just sit back and be babies,,well, good luck finding it cuz i'm sure any company who dare promiss you that, are a gamick

There is a significant difference between a pyramid organizational structure and a pyramid scheme.

Pyramid schemes place the company's loss risk entirely on the bottom levels. Inevitably, the losses are huge, but the company profits regardless, because they have shifted all of that loss to the poor saps that are naive enough to believe people such as yourself.

Think about it, people. In your JOB (chuckle), is your paycheck decreased because your company didn't do so well that week? No. Why not? Because losses are absorbed by the ownership. This is why most employers seek only those employees that will contribute to the overall success of the business.

In a pyramid scheme, on the other hand, the company profits if you sell, but loses nothing if you fail. This is a very dangerous system that allows for mass exploitation, huge cumulative losses that are absorbed entrely by the "little man," and rampant deceptive recruiting.

If you want to sign up with Quixtar, even after reading actual statistics that prove what a losing proposition it is, then do so. If you prefer empty rhetoric over facts, then Quixtar is right for you. Go ahead and spend $140 to start up, pay to attend weekly meetings, waste hundreds of dollars on bogus "motivational materials," and watch as you make zero (or less) net income.

The average Quixtar IBO earns $115 per month. This is Quixtar's statistic, not mine. The FTC mandates that Quixtar inform new IBOs of this number. Why do they require this? Because Amway, the predecessor of Quixtar, was found to be an illegal pyramid scheme.

Considering that a handful of people ARE making good money; that the products are grossly overpriced; that there is a $140 start-up fee; that most IBOs are pushed into spending great deals of money on worthless motivational tools, I will GUARUNTEE you that the average IBO actually has a net LOSS.

And not only are they losing money, but they're wasting an awful lot of time, alienating friends and family, and destroying their self-esteem.

Quixtar's whole recruiting philosophy is based on the notion that JOBs are somehow evil, and that nobody will ever find success working for someone else. The sad truth is that, first of all, you are STILL working for someone else in Quixtar (the notion of business ownership is a fallacy, you don't own squat). Second of all, the average American earns $45,000 working a JOBs and, as I said before, the average IBO LOSES MONEY. So how is it that the JOB is the path to poverty?

There's a simple truth behind all of this, that directly addresses the above rebuttal: organizations that recruit through fear are scams. If you try to make people think that they will NEVER achieve success outside of your organization, then you're entire philosophy is bogus, and nobody should believe a word that you say.

Let me point out something. You can call this what ever you want. But your JOB is a legal pyramid scheme. But all the complainers don't complain about that. They spend their gas money every day to go work for a company that makes money off of their every move. Complainers are conditioned aka brainwashed to be slaves. They drive to Wal-Mart or where ever they go and give their money to that store and then drive back. Anybody ever think about that? No because your conditioned aka brain washed to think that that is the only way that a legitimate business can be done...but you don't even have an idea how to run a business. If your a complainer or of employee mind set please don't bother to respond. I back Quixtar.

I don't ever keep information from people. If they ask and I don't know I simply state I don't know and find the answer for them. Not a complicated task.

I will begin by saying that we were very happy to see that we got every last dime back that we put into it after bailing in just less than 90 days after the fact and even was allowed to keep the products the THEY took the liberty of ordering for us as part of the registration. They were very professional about it all the way around.

However, I still feel it's a crock...and find it very painful to watch the couple that got us into it buying so much overpriced crap chasing this road to riches scheme.

We have had an unspoken pack as to not speak about this since we bailed and have maintained our relationship but can clearly see that they are getting no where and have noticed that they are having financial problems and it's clear that TOD is clearly the culprit.

TOD is just like all the other Marketing schemes. It's amazing to me that people still join these things after so much has been exploited about how over 90% of the participants do not profit from it. I don't doubt that people can make money from this "business venture", but can you look yourself in the mirror each day and feel good about how? Sure a portion is made from the merchandise, and a majority from motivational tapes, etc. The rest is from $$ particpants spend when they are on the "bottom" of the pyramid. You truely do have to spend some money to make some money...but fact of the matter is many of the people claiming success in this business are either:

A. Driven people without regard to how they effect the lives of "underlings" as long as they get their money.

B. Blinded by their desire to get rich quick or without as much effort as they perceive it would be without TOD.

C. People who probably could have been more successful if they had just started a business on their own with integrity.

This stuff isn't business as usual so be careful!

TOD is only one part of the amway branch. I was involved with the Quixtar for one year but left. They not only try to sell on how "you can make money", but they neglect to tell you how you have to spend money each month and how everyone under you has to spend money in order for you to make money. I personally know people that have been involved with these type of programs for awhile now and they are no better off than they were before except they do not have a job with insurance and no stable income per say. Some do not even have permanent homes. They are paying more out to attends meetings in and out of state and also have lost precious time with their children that they will never ever be able to recover. Is it really worth it. I just checked the TOD web site tonight out of curosity when someone asked me about it and the site was not even available. I have also checked out the michigan government web site for pyramid scheme and this would be classified as a pyramids except that amway has a clever way of disguising this. This is probably why there is so many off shoots. I am sure it will not be long before this one will be shot now too. P.S. Even though alot of high name companies are named within the sites does not necessarily mean that you will get it cheaper just because you belong to this group. I found that if you go to the companies web site or store you can get it for the same price or cheaper.

Ace, kudos on your last comment. The funny thing is that the "one literary genius in Indiana" resides here only temporarily and claims Michigan as his state of residence. Didn't mean to be too harsh in the previous rebuttal, it's just that when someone gets down on everybody else's english skills, and then does something like spell grammar with an "e," it must be pointed out (I know that's not what you did, I just think "you need to work on your grammer" is hilarious).

Good to see that you came to your senses per this "opportunity," and that it only took you a month to do so.

You, apparently, were smart enough to realize that the REAL business is the hawking of motivational materials and seminars.

Let me tell you about the "tools":

Robert Kiyosaki was a bum before an Amway rep found a copy of "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" in a bus station bathroom. Rich Dad and Poor Dad are fictional characters. As far as anyone can tell, his real source of wealth is selling his trash to pyramid scheme hopefuls (not real estate investment as he would have you think).

And I'm pretty sure he was a student in the Merchant Marine Academy while he was writing his "why you don't need college book."

And, might I add, in RDPD he claims to have had enough money to retire in 1985 but, in a previous book, he claimed to have been bankrupt and homeless in 1985.

"The Cash Flow Quadrant" is also absolute garbage. Did "The Quadrant" teach you anything you didn't already know? Why is it trumped up like it's the work of Socrates when every kid learns that stuff in 8th grade?

Most people aren't cut out for the B quadrant, and replicating a failed system isn't going to change that. That's why they need jobs, not "opportunities."

And don't let the pyramid scheme promoters try to tell you that there is something wrong with having a job. They're still punching the clocks themselves most of the time. Besides, I'll take working for someone else and bringing home a paycheck over "being my own boss" and living in poverty, thank you very much.

I joined the "Team" about a month ago after being re-introduced to this this so called business when it was the business formally known as "The Team of Destiny" five years ago by friends of ours.

Looking back wondering as to why I did feel it was out of obligation to these friends, curiosity and of course the prospect of making more money. I had the 200 some-odd dollars to burn and take a gamble. I've spent a whole lot more for a whole lot less so I figured, "What the heck!".

After about a week into this and doing some online research discovered allot of disturbing findings, including this blog.
I asked the "team leader/mentor/ibo" I wanted out and my money back. His initial response was, "He didn't know if that was possible and that he would have to talk to his wife". In the mean time I had changed my mind once again and decided to give it a real shot after the urging of my wife (a sucker for children, pets and get-rich-quick schemes).

I own and operate two business's, one of which allows me to further research business's, people and places, which I did and yet uncovered yet more disturbing information. I knew for sure that I wanted out and my money back.

After this news reached this "team leader/mentor/ibo" he called my wife via her cell phone several times over the course of the weekend. We don't normally conduct any business of any kind unless it is pertinent to the two existing business we already own let alone the "Team" business. She finally took his call while out the club and kept her on the phone for almost an hour urging her for us to speak to him and another man that everytime I've met this person referred to me as "Stud" if I may add. Does Alan Greenspan call his associates "Stud" when they meet? Does Donald Trump refer to his colleges as "Stud" during business meetings? I would beg to differ if told so.

I found it funny when he finally spoke to me via my wife's cell phone yesterday that when I simply stated when asked if I thought it over more and or would again meet with him and the other "Team" member about staying in I said all I wanted is to know about getting out and getting my money back he had all the information in the world about doing so and the conversation was over in less than five minutes. The once full of piss-n-vinegar happy-go-lucky guy abruptly dismissed me. The conversation was over faster than as if I was selling cancer or kiddie porn. Hmmm? Where's the love? I said no hard feelings in that lickty-split conversation. I said he was still cool by me in my book? Where is the love? Where is the "positivist" I was once touted to about?

I ask this, which has been asked here before:

Show me financial statements of these big money makers.

Why is it so important that I have to buy the CD's and books, which yes is optional but was frowned upon when I said I found a huge lot of tapes, books and cd's on ebay for sale that I was going to bid on? And why, if you want me to succeed so badly won't lend and or sell me your books, tapes and cd's, you already listened/read them. Remember: "TEAM", stands for Together, Everyone, Achieves More...

Yeah right!

Why do seminars cost money?

They say you can write it off through your "business" Me write it off? No! A CPA told me Mr. Woodward and Mr. Brady could write it off with no problems with the tax bracket they are in for staging these large events. If I want cheerleading/pep rally excitement I'll go to a local high school basketball game.

How about having a seminar with all these big money makers and they bring accountants with their financial statements and I'll be more than happy to jump around for 8 hours over nothing more than that.

Why is when I said I want to make my 238.00 back within 90 days I was told, "You Can", if you sign-up 10 people each month for three months. $238.00 in 90 days?!? Kids at McDonalds knock down more than that in one week working an 8 hour shift each day.

Yaddy ya ya yaaaa...

I can wake-up, check my email in my boxers and make that in one day off of one business. Sure that may not happen everyday but it does sometimes. Those sometimes allows me to keep a roof over my head, utilities on, food on the table and a ton of fun on weekends. Sure I may have created a "job" as they say about self-employed persons in the four corner quadrant but at least I'm still making money and don't really feel "tied" down doing what I do. I get to be home with my family and make money too. So what if I can't have a "passive" income like Mr. Dell or Bill Gates but who wants to be those geeks anyways. Trust me they tired down to some extent and if the baby isn't attended to it will fall ill. There is only one place to go when your number one and that's down.

I truly feel this may work for some but not many. I didn't like what I discovered and many of those who do some simple Simon web searches would find the same. Why would I pull myself away from my business to chase down 30 people in 90 days to make a measly $238.00 back? And if those are the numbers as dictated by this "team leader/mentor/ibo" those aren't nothing to brag about nor retire on. A thousand dollars in one year?!? So you cheerleaders say work harder and chase down more people... Forget it... A retarded Korean kid knows better than that...

Last but not least, pure and simple as to not get negative...It reeks of cult like behaviors, BIG TIME...The excessive cell phone, home calls and "lets meet" said it all not to mention the couple that we joined under was asked by this "team leader/mentor/ibo" not to associate with us any longer for we may "poison" their minds.

Good night nurse...

By the way...

Thanks for correcting my grammar. We all know now there is ONE literary genius in Indiana.

I joined the "Team" about a month ago after being re-introduced to this this so called business when it was the business formally known as "The Team of Destiny" five years ago by friends of ours.

Looking back wondering as to why I did feel it was out of obligation to these friends, curiosity and of course the prospect of making more money. I had the 200 some-odd dollars to burn and take a gamble. I've spent a whole lot more for a whole lot less so I figured, "What the heck!".

After about a week into this and doing some online research discovered allot of disturbing findings, including this blog.
I asked the "team leader/mentor/ibo" I wanted out and my money back. His initial response was, "He didn't know if that was possible and that he would have to talk to his wife". In the mean time I had changed my mind once again and decided to give it a real shot after the urging of my wife (a sucker for children, pets and get-rich-quick schemes).

I own and operate two business's, one of which allows me to further research business's, people and places, which I did and yet uncovered yet more disturbing information. I knew for sure that I wanted out and my money back.

After this news reached this "team leader/mentor/ibo" he called my wife via her cell phone several times over the course of the weekend. We don't normally conduct any business of any kind unless it is pertinent to the two existing business we already own let alone the "Team" business. She finally took his call while out the club and kept her on the phone for almost an hour urging her for us to speak to him and another man that everytime I've met this person referred to me as "Stud" if I may add. Does Alan Greenspan call his associates "Stud" when they meet? Does Donald Trump refer to his colleges as "Stud" during business meetings? I would beg to differ if told so.

I found it funny when he finally spoke to me via my wife's cell phone yesterday that when I simply stated when asked if I thought it over more and or would again meet with him and the other "Team" member about staying in I said all I wanted is to know about getting out and getting my money back he had all the information in the world about doing so and the conversation was over in less than five minutes. The once full of piss-n-vinegar happy-go-lucky guy abruptly dismissed me. The conversation was over faster than as if I was selling cancer or kiddie porn. Hmmm? Where's the love? I said no hard feelings in that lickty-split conversation. I said he was still cool by me in my book? Where is the love? Where is the "positivist" I was once touted to about?

I ask this, which has been asked here before:

Show me financial statements of these big money makers.

Why is it so important that I have to buy the CD's and books, which yes is optional but was frowned upon when I said I found a huge lot of tapes, books and cd's on ebay for sale that I was going to bid on? And why, if you want me to succeed so badly won't lend and or sell me your books, tapes and cd's, you already listened/read them. Remember: "TEAM", stands for Together, Everyone, Achieves More...

Yeah right!

Why do seminars cost money?

They say you can write it off through your "business" Me write it off? No! A CPA told me Mr. Woodward and Mr. Brady could write it off with no problems with the tax bracket they are in for staging these large events. If I want cheerleading/pep rally excitement I'll go to a local high school basketball game.

How about having a seminar with all these big money makers and they bring accountants with their financial statements and I'll be more than happy to jump around for 8 hours over nothing more than that.

Why is when I said I want to make my 238.00 back within 90 days I was told, "You Can", if you sign-up 10 people each month for three months. $238.00 in 90 days?!? Kids at McDonalds knock down more than that in one week working an 8 hour shift each day.

Yaddy ya ya yaaaa...

I can wake-up, check my email in my boxers and make that in one day off of one business. Sure that may not happen everyday but it does sometimes. Those sometimes allows me to keep a roof over my head, utilities on, food on the table and a ton of fun on weekends. Sure I may have created a "job" as they say about self-employed persons in the four corner quadrant but at least I'm still making money and don't really feel "tied" down doing what I do. I get to be home with my family and make money too. So what if I can't have a "passive" income like Mr. Dell or Bill Gates but who wants to be those geeks anyways. Trust me they tired down to some extent and if the baby isn't attended to it will fall ill. There is only one place to go when your number one and that's down.

I truly feel this may work for some but not many. I didn't like what I discovered and many of those who do some simple Simon web searches would find the same. Why would I pull myself away from my business to chase down 30 people in 90 days to make a measly $238.00 back? And if those are the numbers as dictated by this "team leader/mentor/ibo" those aren't nothing to brag about nor retire on. A thousand dollars in one year?!? So you cheerleaders say work harder and chase down more people... Forget it... A retarded Korean kid knows better than that...

Last but not least, pure and simple as to not get negative...It reeks of cult like behaviors, BIG TIME...The excessive cell phone, home calls and "lets meet" said it all not to mention the couple that we joined under was asked by this "team leader/mentor/ibo" not to associate with us any longer for we may "poison" their minds.

Good night nurse...

By the way...

Thanks for correcting my grammar. We all know now there is ONE literary genius in Indiana.

I joined the "Team" about a month ago after being re-introduced to this this so called business when it was the business formally known as "The Team of Destiny" five years ago by friends of ours.

Looking back wondering as to why I did feel it was out of obligation to these friends, curiosity and of course the prospect of making more money. I had the 200 some-odd dollars to burn and take a gamble. I've spent a whole lot more for a whole lot less so I figured, "What the heck!".

After about a week into this and doing some online research discovered allot of disturbing findings, including this blog.
I asked the "team leader/mentor/ibo" I wanted out and my money back. His initial response was, "He didn't know if that was possible and that he would have to talk to his wife". In the mean time I had changed my mind once again and decided to give it a real shot after the urging of my wife (a sucker for children, pets and get-rich-quick schemes).

I own and operate two business's, one of which allows me to further research business's, people and places, which I did and yet uncovered yet more disturbing information. I knew for sure that I wanted out and my money back.

After this news reached this "team leader/mentor/ibo" he called my wife via her cell phone several times over the course of the weekend. We don't normally conduct any business of any kind unless it is pertinent to the two existing business we already own let alone the "Team" business. She finally took his call while out the club and kept her on the phone for almost an hour urging her for us to speak to him and another man that everytime I've met this person referred to me as "Stud" if I may add. Does Alan Greenspan call his associates "Stud" when they meet? Does Donald Trump refer to his colleges as "Stud" during business meetings? I would beg to differ if told so.

I found it funny when he finally spoke to me via my wife's cell phone yesterday that when I simply stated when asked if I thought it over more and or would again meet with him and the other "Team" member about staying in I said all I wanted is to know about getting out and getting my money back he had all the information in the world about doing so and the conversation was over in less than five minutes. The once full of piss-n-vinegar happy-go-lucky guy abruptly dismissed me. The conversation was over faster than as if I was selling cancer or kiddie porn. Hmmm? Where's the love? I said no hard feelings in that lickty-split conversation. I said he was still cool by me in my book? Where is the love? Where is the "positivist" I was once touted to about?

I ask this, which has been asked here before:

Show me financial statements of these big money makers.

Why is it so important that I have to buy the CD's and books, which yes is optional but was frowned upon when I said I found a huge lot of tapes, books and cd's on ebay for sale that I was going to bid on? And why, if you want me to succeed so badly won't lend and or sell me your books, tapes and cd's, you already listened/read them. Remember: "TEAM", stands for Together, Everyone, Achieves More...

Yeah right!

Why do seminars cost money?

They say you can write it off through your "business" Me write it off? No! A CPA told me Mr. Woodward and Mr. Brady could write it off with no problems with the tax bracket they are in for staging these large events. If I want cheerleading/pep rally excitement I'll go to a local high school basketball game.

How about having a seminar with all these big money makers and they bring accountants with their financial statements and I'll be more than happy to jump around for 8 hours over nothing more than that.

Why is when I said I want to make my 238.00 back within 90 days I was told, "You Can", if you sign-up 10 people each month for three months. $238.00 in 90 days?!? Kids at McDonalds knock down more than that in one week working an 8 hour shift each day.

Yaddy ya ya yaaaa...

I can wake-up, check my email in my boxers and make that in one day off of one business. Sure that may not happen everyday but it does sometimes. Those sometimes allows me to keep a roof over my head, utilities on, food on the table and a ton of fun on weekends. Sure I may have created a "job" as they say about self-employed persons in the four corner quadrant but at least I'm still making money and don't really feel "tied" down doing what I do. I get to be home with my family and make money too. So what if I can't have a "passive" income like Mr. Dell or Bill Gates but who wants to be those geeks anyways. Trust me they tired down to some extent and if the baby isn't attended to it will fall ill. There is only one place to go when your number one and that's down.

I truly feel this may work for some but not many. I didn't like what I discovered and many of those who do some simple Simon web searches would find the same. Why would I pull myself away from my business to chase down 30 people in 90 days to make a measly $238.00 back? And if those are the numbers as dictated by this "team leader/mentor/ibo" those aren't nothing to brag about nor retire on. A thousand dollars in one year?!? So you cheerleaders say work harder and chase down more people... Forget it... A retarded Korean kid knows better than that...

Last but not least, pure and simple as to not get negative...It reeks of cult like behaviors, BIG TIME...The excessive cell phone, home calls and "lets meet" said it all not to mention the couple that we joined under was asked by this "team leader/mentor/ibo" not to associate with us any longer for we may "poison" their minds.

Good night nurse...

By the way...

Thanks for correcting my grammar. We all know now there is ONE literary genius in Indiana.

Thanks for the note, Ace, but I think you meant "you're," not "your."

Practice what you preach!

I don't care who's side your on, people, please get a spell checker! Your making both sides look like a bunch of village idiots!

I don't care who's side your on, people, please get a spell checker! Your making both sides look like a bunch of village idiots!

Over the years I have had many opportunities to join various MLM's. The TOD is just what may of the above have stated, it is a just an organized recruitment leg of a Amway/Qixstar distributor. This cat makes mucho money off of all the tapes and meettings. He also makes mucho money off of everyone that signs up for his 'unique' program.

The logistical fact that applies to ALL MLM's is that most WILL NO SUCCEED, if ALL COULD SUCCEED, then there would be total saturation of the market and everyone would be their 'own best customer' and Wal-Mart would be dead....but people still have to manufactor the product, transport it, so if all TOD member succeed, the the world as we know it ends! (just kidding)

In order for a proper IBO to truly succeed in any MLM, they would need to maintain a consistant 1000 members (those that produce sales, or purchase a minimum monthly amount for themselves). Now for those 1000 memeber of the downline to reproduce the same results they would need to each recruit and maintain a 1000 members a piece (that is 1 million people). Do you get the numbers? That means that these folks would need to maintain each a 1000 members (and that is a cool BILLION). If Each of those are coughing up $12.00 a week for tapes and money for meetings, you see where the cash flow is going.

The TOD is not for everyone. It is really for NO ONE. People engrossed in the program get drunk off the kool-aid and blind themselves to the facts: MLMs are systems doomed to fail, and only keep their steam on continually recruiting people. If folks weren't recruited, it would die as no one could possibly sell enough product to keep it alive. It is a pyramid, and it doesn't allow the IBO freedom to market the product or 'system' in any form other than how it is presented.

I am a IBO of my own operation (not a MLM!!!!). I perform services that are in demand and on demand. I recently became a independent distributor of auto and personal GPS tracking equiptment, cost to become an authroized dealer: NOTHING, cost for catalogs detailing the products and services I can offer: NOTHING, cost for tech support and training: NOTHING. Why? Because every system I sell makes them money, and an informed dealer is a profitable dealer. I set my own prices for product and installation, I make a commission on any subscriptions.

I don't have to pay anyone for repetative (i.e. conditioning) information on how I am going to succeed. My success will be gaged on how well I market and sell my services, and with my established base of customers, and my unique ties to various indusitries, I feel I have a go with it.

I don't have to act like everyone is a 'prospect', I can have actual converstaions with people without asking prying questions and trying to offer them a red herring opportunity. I don't have to alienate my friends and family because I joined a "team of destiny" as I have showed all that know me that my destiny is mine to control and make, for fail as I see fit, all without giving a freaking dime to someone brainwashed.

TOD, Qixstar, Pre-Paid Legal, Herbalife, what every, your name it, I've seen and heard of them all. They can't answer your questions about the money they make, because the majority of them don't make any, they can point up and say 'look at so and so, they are sucessful, so i can be' then they pay them some more for a tape or book that says the same sh*t, just on a different page or track.

All of you MLMers that are 'trapped' need to get out of the 'groupspeak' and apply actual logic to the effort you are applying. I once saw gold in a now defunt operation called "Quorum". I was impressed with the technology they were selling (personal alarms, home alarms that worked off pressure) I wasn't impressed how I built a down line quickly, sold much product, then my up line by passed me and was talking to my downline directly (mainly because they bought alot of product for demos, they never made as much money as I did just selling the personal alarms).

I dropped the 'system' when my sponsor was mad because I was recruiting other people, I told him the three people was all i needed on my team, and that we were selling product to make money. He didn't like that...I didn't like him after that, and well all dropped out. The meetings, and the 'rewards and awards' were all too cheesy to me, and I was really interested in the product, not the system. Wal Mart started selling simular products for 1/3 the price, now you can get simullar things for five bucks.

Keep buying retail, Buy American if you can, if you are in business, the captial market system is your key to success. The individual 'direct market' system has been falling to the way side for decades. Most people involved end up working much more than they intended to, Look up reports for Cydor, DS Max, Innovage, Granthan Marketing, they specialize in direct marketing and a very very borderline retail sales that is predatory.

They aren't a direct MLM, but when you check them out, you will see at least the folks in TOD are nice to you (unless you quit, then since you don't make them money or are a part of their system, you are summarily rejected, how Christian of them).

GOD is not a retail sales tool! I have and will never use my religious beliefs in my marketing, as it can and does alienate everyone.

RIP OFF READER, twice a day to keep me regular!

I have studied MLM opportunities in depth in anticipation of an academic article I will be authoring proposing changes to the FTC's current definition of a pyramid scheme.

I have never heard of TOD outside of this site. I know of the general character, however. From what I can gather, TOD may or may not be a leg of the Quixtar pyramid. If it is, then there is a heavy presumption that this is a scam.

I don't need to have been involved in TOD, or to even know anybody who is or was, to see the telltale signs of a scam, to wit:

1) Supportive rebuttals that are devoid of any independent thought, that merely regurgitate the defensive rhetoric employed routinely by pyramid scheme defenders;

2) Patently exaggerated income claims;

3) Quoting Robert Kiyosaki (10 pounds of B.S. in a 5 pound bag);

4) Red herring arguments such as "all successful businesses are pyramids" and "we wouldn't be so successful/the FTC would shut us down if we were a scam";

5) Completely uninformed ideas of what the "B quadrant" is really all about (yes, I have actually read Kiyosaki).

Let me expand on this last point. A previous rebuttalist stated that she spoke with several people in the "B quadrant" and they told her that this was a great idea, but that they wouldn't do it because they were already successful. Pardon my language, but this is absolute BULLSHIT! Not only did these conversations never actually take place, but NO successful enterpreneur (outside of MLMs) would say that a business plan was a great idea based solely on the bare-bones, especially when that plan is a mere replication of an existing scheme.

If I were a successful business owner, and you came to me with a plan and asked me if it would be fruitful, I would abstain from giving you an answer until you could come up with certain fundamental information. What is the success rate of other people in this organization (what is the average income)? Why is this product marketable in the first place? What control do you have over your local market? What are the costs associated with this business? etc.

You see, successful business owners did not become that way by replicating a system with a high failure rate, in an uncontrollable market, with seemingly unecessary (and high) associated costs. And no person with an iota of business sense would recommend doing so. The path to successful business ownership does not begin with buying in to deceptive sales pitches. It begins with a thorough, objective investigation into the likelihood of success.

And, for those who are successful business owners, the path of continued success is NOT paved with copies of "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" and "Household Gold." Smart businessmen do not waste time reading books that will tell them what they already know: that success takes work and desire. Rather, they continuously monitor the operation and the market in which it operates to correct failures and become even more successful. Robert Kiyosaki can't tell you what your business needs. If you need his help, then you are not cut out for the "B quadrant." If you need to pay $12 a week for the privilege of hearing somebody tell you that you're on the right track, then you're probably not on the right track.

Want to be a success? Get yourself an education. Work for someone else if you have to, there's nothing wrong with that. As for me, the decision between working for someone else and living well versus "being my own boss" and living in a cardboard box is an easy one.

I have found proof that TOD is part of Quixtar,and Amway, because Orrin Woodward, Who was elected to the IBOAI Board at AMWAY for 2005, is the President and acting CEO of TOD.

I'm not saying that it is a ripoff, However they are one in the same. You can see the proof for your self.

Just go to www.iboai.com,and click enter web site. See for yourself, and make your own desision. The people that talked to me totally denied any Affiliation with Amway, so my conclusion is, they cannot be trusted.

I joined Mary Kay. I bought the starter pack and armed with testers and a "hell yeah I can do this' attitude, set off to find women who would like a free facial. I asked 29 women and 29 women said "No" The only two people who did get a facial and buy a few products were friends of mine!
Those woman who exclaim that Mary Kay was the answer to their dreams must be very good at the hard sell, something I would not do or a constant thorn in the side of family and friends.
Sure, the products are good but so over-priced I couldn't in good conscience push $25 handcreams on anyone.
For every success story I am convinced that you will find 3, 6 , 10 times as many sad endings, whether it be Mary Kay or any other MLM

Scarlet

This message is to Heidi of Neveda. I read your comments about Mary Kay Cosmetics. I do have to say it is certainly bold and nieve of you to write you rebuttal, if you call that a rebuttal.

Although I am a member of the TEAM, and will always be one, I considered your offer and this is what I came up with. I would have to do various time intensive tasks such as:
1.Being a Mary Kay Representative
2.Customer contacting
3.Home parties to sample Mary Kay products
4.Establish a reorder business
5.Handle customer complaints
5.Stock product samples
(I may have missed a few or be clearer on some)

Items 1-4 are all time requirements you have to do perform. Item 5 is requiring you to spend money on product prior to making any back.

TEAM does not requires us to do all these time consuming tasks or purchase any items. We are asked to contact people to share of how to make extra money part time.

I have some questions though.

Q.What would it take for me to sell Mary Kay products?
A.I could learn the product or gain the skill to sell MK products by mentorship or some other teaching material. I could learn the chemicals used and theories on how it may affect a person's skin. Coloring considerations are there as well.

Q.Am I creditable enough to be taken seriously on the products?
A.Being a man in my 40s would be strange at first but not impossible. I may be influentical with my males friends but I don't think they would wear or use the products, too complicated for men.

Q.How long would it take me to be able to build a customer list and eventually a repeat customer list?
A.Refer back to my previous question and it remains a creditability issue, but not impossible.

Q.What's the best that could happen for me in MK?
A.I am limited to one area of consumables for only 50% of all the population in North America. There is possibilites of success, but not as much as TEAM. Call profit considerations

I say profit because you and I know that is what you represent MK for - Free Enterprize.

Q.Would a bad economy affect my MK business?
A.Yes, not entirely but yes it would be effected.

Q.Is Demographics a concern?
A.Definetley yes. I may have to travel for new clients. I may have to move after a certain period of time.

Q.How much time would I have to spend per month to be considered financially free?
A.Being a business where I could schedule something every single night of the week for parties, customer contact, etc.. Then start it all over again the next week.

Q.Could I stop working for 6 months and have my MK business making the same amount of money?
A.No, I am the magic that keeps money coming in. My customers could find someone else to order from and I lose some customers.

Mary Kay is a great business in an industrial age way of doing business. You may be experiencing tremendous rewards from MK, but some of us may not be able to.

TEAM is an Information age type of business. Do yourself justice by getting some more information about TEAM and see why this is the BEST business around. You can get all those questions I listed answered if you attend an open meeting in your area.

Good Luck Heidi!

This message is to Heidi of Neveda. I read your comments about Mary Kay Cosmetics. I do have to say it is certainly bold and nieve of you to write you rebuttal, if you call that a rebuttal.

Although I am a member of the TEAM, and will always be one, I considered your offer and this is what I came up with. I would have to do various time intensive tasks such as:
1.Being a Mary Kay Representative
2.Customer contacting
3.Home parties to sample Mary Kay products
4.Establish a reorder business
5.Handle customer complaints
5.Stock product samples
(I may have missed a few or be clearer on some)

Items 1-4 are all time requirements you have to do perform. Item 5 is requiring you to spend money on product prior to making any back.

TEAM does not requires us to do all these time consuming tasks or purchase any items. We are asked to contact people to share of how to make extra money part time.

I have some questions though.

Q.What would it take for me to sell Mary Kay products?
A.I could learn the product or gain the skill to sell MK products by mentorship or some other teaching material. I could learn the chemicals used and theories on how it may affect a person's skin. Coloring considerations are there as well.

Q.Am I creditable enough to be taken seriously on the products?
A.Being a man in my 40s would be strange at first but not impossible. I may be influentical with my males friends but I don't think they would wear or use the products, too complicated for men.

Q.How long would it take me to be able to build a customer list and eventually a repeat customer list?
A.Refer back to my previous question and it remains a creditability issue, but not impossible.

Q.What's the best that could happen for me in MK?
A.I am limited to one area of consumables for only 50% of all the population in North America. There is possibilites of success, but not as much as TEAM. Call profit considerations

I say profit because you and I know that is what you represent MK for - Free Enterprize.

Q.Would a bad economy affect my MK business?
A.Yes, not entirely but yes it would be effected.

Q.Is Demographics a concern?
A.Definetley yes. I may have to travel for new clients. I may have to move after a certain period of time.

Q.How much time would I have to spend per month to be considered financially free?
A.Being a business where I could schedule something every single night of the week for parties, customer contact, etc.. Then start it all over again the next week.

Q.Could I stop working for 6 months and have my MK business making the same amount of money?
A.No, I am the magic that keeps money coming in. My customers could find someone else to order from and I lose some customers.

Mary Kay is a great business in an industrial age way of doing business. You may be experiencing tremendous rewards from MK, but some of us may not be able to.

TEAM is an Information age type of business. Do yourself justice by getting some more information about TEAM and see why this is the BEST business around. You can get all those questions I listed answered if you attend an open meeting in your area.

Good Luck Heidi!

This message is to Heidi of Neveda. I read your comments about Mary Kay Cosmetics. I do have to say it is certainly bold and nieve of you to write you rebuttal, if you call that a rebuttal.

Although I am a member of the TEAM, and will always be one, I considered your offer and this is what I came up with. I would have to do various time intensive tasks such as:
1.Being a Mary Kay Representative
2.Customer contacting
3.Home parties to sample Mary Kay products
4.Establish a reorder business
5.Handle customer complaints
5.Stock product samples
(I may have missed a few or be clearer on some)

Items 1-4 are all time requirements you have to do perform. Item 5 is requiring you to spend money on product prior to making any back.

TEAM does not requires us to do all these time consuming tasks or purchase any items. We are asked to contact people to share of how to make extra money part time.

I have some questions though.

Q.What would it take for me to sell Mary Kay products?
A.I could learn the product or gain the skill to sell MK products by mentorship or some other teaching material. I could learn the chemicals used and theories on how it may affect a person's skin. Coloring considerations are there as well.

Q.Am I creditable enough to be taken seriously on the products?
A.Being a man in my 40s would be strange at first but not impossible. I may be influentical with my males friends but I don't think they would wear or use the products, too complicated for men.

Q.How long would it take me to be able to build a customer list and eventually a repeat customer list?
A.Refer back to my previous question and it remains a creditability issue, but not impossible.

Q.What's the best that could happen for me in MK?
A.I am limited to one area of consumables for only 50% of all the population in North America. There is possibilites of success, but not as much as TEAM. Call profit considerations

I say profit because you and I know that is what you represent MK for - Free Enterprize.

Q.Would a bad economy affect my MK business?
A.Yes, not entirely but yes it would be effected.

Q.Is Demographics a concern?
A.Definetley yes. I may have to travel for new clients. I may have to move after a certain period of time.

Q.How much time would I have to spend per month to be considered financially free?
A.Being a business where I could schedule something every single night of the week for parties, customer contact, etc.. Then start it all over again the next week.

Q.Could I stop working for 6 months and have my MK business making the same amount of money?
A.No, I am the magic that keeps money coming in. My customers could find someone else to order from and I lose some customers.

Mary Kay is a great business in an industrial age way of doing business. You may be experiencing tremendous rewards from MK, but some of us may not be able to.

TEAM is an Information age type of business. Do yourself justice by getting some more information about TEAM and see why this is the BEST business around. You can get all those questions I listed answered if you attend an open meeting in your area.

Good Luck Heidi!

This message is to Heidi of Neveda. I read your comments about Mary Kay Cosmetics. I do have to say it is certainly bold and nieve of you to write you rebuttal, if you call that a rebuttal.

Although I am a member of the TEAM, and will always be one, I considered your offer and this is what I came up with. I would have to do various time intensive tasks such as:
1.Being a Mary Kay Representative
2.Customer contacting
3.Home parties to sample Mary Kay products
4.Establish a reorder business
5.Handle customer complaints
5.Stock product samples
(I may have missed a few or be clearer on some)

Items 1-4 are all time requirements you have to do perform. Item 5 is requiring you to spend money on product prior to making any back.

TEAM does not requires us to do all these time consuming tasks or purchase any items. We are asked to contact people to share of how to make extra money part time.

I have some questions though.

Q.What would it take for me to sell Mary Kay products?
A.I could learn the product or gain the skill to sell MK products by mentorship or some other teaching material. I could learn the chemicals used and theories on how it may affect a person's skin. Coloring considerations are there as well.

Q.Am I creditable enough to be taken seriously on the products?
A.Being a man in my 40s would be strange at first but not impossible. I may be influentical with my males friends but I don't think they would wear or use the products, too complicated for men.

Q.How long would it take me to be able to build a customer list and eventually a repeat customer list?
A.Refer back to my previous question and it remains a creditability issue, but not impossible.

Q.What's the best that could happen for me in MK?
A.I am limited to one area of consumables for only 50% of all the population in North America. There is possibilites of success, but not as much as TEAM. Call profit considerations

I say profit because you and I know that is what you represent MK for - Free Enterprize.

Q.Would a bad economy affect my MK business?
A.Yes, not entirely but yes it would be effected.

Q.Is Demographics a concern?
A.Definetley yes. I may have to travel for new clients. I may have to move after a certain period of time.

Q.How much time would I have to spend per month to be considered financially free?
A.Being a business where I could schedule something every single night of the week for parties, customer contact, etc.. Then start it all over again the next week.

Q.Could I stop working for 6 months and have my MK business making the same amount of money?
A.No, I am the magic that keeps money coming in. My customers could find someone else to order from and I lose some customers.

Mary Kay is a great business in an industrial age way of doing business. You may be experiencing tremendous rewards from MK, but some of us may not be able to.

TEAM is an Information age type of business. Do yourself justice by getting some more information about TEAM and see why this is the BEST business around. You can get all those questions I listed answered if you attend an open meeting in your area.

Good Luck Heidi!

I went to one of Team of Destiny's seminars in Las Vegas and I was not happy with the event. I think I was working too many hours at the time and really didn't want to be there. Anyway, I requested a refund of the two $25 tickets I purchased and received my money back with 2 weeks.

Team of Destiny really does have very good customer service and they honor their refund policies.

If someone is unhappy on the team they should talk to their upline or call Customer Service.

All you negative people out there bashing the TEAM really have no idea what you are talking about. It is so funny when I hear people complaining about the cost of tapes, books and seminars. Please GIVE ME A BREAK. I spend about 12 dollars a week on a few tapes. TWELVE DOLLARS, why are you complaining about such a minimum amount of money, especially that these tapes are the secret to success in a persons life. You know the reason that most of you are negative about this business is that you have the 95% (employee, self-employed) mentality of looking at a B-type Business. Ofcourse its not gonna make sense to you guys, as all you know is how to be an employee or self employed; therefore, if I were you I would go talk to B-type business owners about this subject, and see what kind of responsed they will give you..

You see, I personally talked to a few guys who I know are B-Type business owners(if you don't know what a B-type business is, go buy Cashflow Quadrant by Kiyosaki) and they all told me that this is a genius idea and that there is no reason it won't work if you perservere and work hard (the reason they didn't join is that they are already financially free, and are living the dream lifestyle). This is not a get rich quick scheme, don't even expect to become wealthy in a couple of weeks, that is just STUPID. Kiyosaki says that if you are not willing to build a business for 3 years without making a penny, then you shouldn't own a B-type Business, your better off working for someone else and building their dreams not your own.

One more thing, before you really bash the integrity of the TEAM, find out more. It bothers me so much when people jump to conclusions before knowing the facts. Also, the reason that not everyone makes it in this arena, is merely the fact that they don't give it all they have and they don't perservere. Becoming a millionaire has never been easy and it will never be. It take a load of self-discipline and very very hard work. So if you are not willing to do that, then go work for someone else. okk

Team of Destiny (TOD) has a Customer Service Department and anyone that is an IBO in that team knows the number and can call and get a problem worked out. I'm an IBO in that team and called the Customer Service Department about 6 months ago. They were friendly and helpful. It's a well run department.

I suspect that individuals that have filed complaints on this rip-off website about Team of Destiny are simply people from competitive MLMs making up stories. If, however, one of these complaints is legit, that person should talk to their upline and get their problem resolved. Stewing about it won't help. No business is perfect. That's why it's important to have a good Customer Service Department like TOD.

ANYONE who claims to be making "big" money is simply fabricating. Prove your income and included the costs of the products, shipping the items, buying the books and tapes, attending the seminars.

This is AMWAY folks plain and simple. TOD purposely preys on those in desperate situations with little education. Does anyone think it wise to recommend that a college education is a waste? TOD does that at seminars all the time.

TOD, in short, is a cult. A mindless, lying cult. And I hope it is someday shut down by the authorities. Because it's really a blight on society.

How can people come here and complain about TOD? From what I have read, 1/2 of the people who are complaining are not even IN the TOD. TOD is a fabulous organization where I have made unbelievable money. How much? No one's business. I have made enough to never have to work another day in my life and I am only 26. Not too shabby.

Long live Team of Destiny!!

The "Diamonds" of TOD do pay their speakers at the seminars. That is where part of the money from the ticket goes. Other money goes to pay for the convention center. (You can't get the Dow Events Center in Saginaw for free no matter who you are)

Thank You Jonathan,

you are the first person to give the most honest opinion from both sides of the fence on Amway,Quixtar or the TOD . I am a business owner who is building this business via the TOD and your comments that it's not for everyone are right on. There have been a number of times that I've ended my presentation with people because it wasn't right for them either financially or they were not willing to put even a little effort into building the business. I respect you greatly for placing your coments on this site.I think it's amazing that people still use "It's a Pyramid Scam" because the Pyramid Law's were enacted in the '70's and there has not been a large scale pyamid scheme prosecuted since the mid '80's. You don't float a $3 billion pyramid scam by the FTC. I respect those who have enough BALLS to tell me that it's not for them.They save me time and money.

Also,can someone please tell me why buying for youself is such a foreign consept.I don't think Firestone purchased Goodyear tires.

Another gripe I see on this site is the cost of products.When I started my journey in the TOD My monthly spending on everything from the website, (except milk,eggs,bread & fresh Veggies) was about $20 more then from some other brick and morter store.If you add the check I got the following month that totaled 6% off of those purchases I only paid around $2 more then at Von's. Now I make enough so my purchases are free. It's prosumerism. Let's say you get your products from the site and they cost $50 more per month for everything you buy and over 2 years you will have paid $1200 more for your products. If in that time you built this business to the $1000/month level , does it matter what you paid for the products.In 2 months you've made your return on investment on the extra money out of pocket and you would be left with $800 minus $50 for the current month for a total of $750. I know , not enough to leave your job , thats for sure. However, the next month your business will have grown either by your efforts or the team you are working with and your check might be $1200 minus $50(exess cost of products) totaling $1150. Now, if your putting all profits in the bank and not spending it like a fool you would have $1900 saved. you can continue with the figures if you like .

I know that most of this is going to fuel the majority of you reading this and thats OK . I hope everyone reading finds success one way or another. My point is that everyone should start looking for their own success ,no matter if it's in employment,self-employment,or businesses like amway or TOD. After all we aren't guarenteed tomorrow. If you don't believe me why not ask the Tsunami victims families if tomorrow is guarenteed .

Thanks for listening and thanks Jonathan

I ahve not had any experience with this reincarnation, but have had much experience with Amway in general. Those who say it is a great thing are correct, however it is not for everyone like they lead you to believe. It takes the right kind of person with the right attitude to make this work. They simply tell you everyone can do this because ...well everyone can.

You do have to be willing to spend a great deal of time without being compensated for it. The better off you are financially already (having the money to invest without a return for quite some time) helps a great deal.

Don't let them fool you. It is possible to make great money from this, but it is NOT for eveyone. I myself was involved with Amway on two different occasions totaling about 5 years. The potential was there and I could see it, but I really did not have the drive and ambition requiered to make this work.

I will say however, I do not see why Amway, or even this new incarnation of it, has such a bad name. The products they themselves make cannot be beat. On top of this you have access to the same products you use now at discounted prices with the potential to make some money back byt jsut buying the same stuff you always have.

If people would get over the name stigma and realise there is actually nothing wrong with this type of buisness and never has been. Can anyone give any solid reasons why this company is Bad? Can anyone substantiate the claims that Amyway is/was a bad thing with good solid facts?

As for this being a pyramid scheme, I will tell you why it is not. It is very possible, and happens quite often, for someone you bring in to turn around and be larger and more profitable than you are. There is no celing you hit at the top where you cannot go higher than the person above you. That is why this has not been shut down yet seeing as how pyramid schemes are illegal.

So, let me say again as someone who has been there, It is a great Idea with tons of potential but is not for everyone. If everyone out there got over their preconcieved notions of what this is and all got together to join this thing, you all would be putting normal retail stores out of buisness and making money yourselves hand over fist.

Wow this is really amazing. I really laugh at people who do this business.

I think it's real funny how they brag about a thousand check, claiming it's an income, but it's really expense.

So I do a real background check and a business anaylze about the TOD business model.

TOD is a great business model. But lacks ethics and sucess rate.

The business model is too risky. Base on Statistics 30 percent failed following TOD principles.

Also again people may work 25 hour and may not receive any thing. Attending meetings, and showing the plan, people do not even get paid.
Average that in check.

My question is how many hours would it take an IBO to make a thousand dollar check ?

Here's the answer i been given.

Well it depends you can work whenever. Wow really impress me with this BS.

As of right now this business model is not a great idea for the average person. People need to know the right people, a lot of time is needed to invest in this plan.

If people would be more specific and not give BS
then i would say this business is great.

I have worked at various companies, some small, some extraordinaly large. Not one time was I required to purchase a book, tape, cd, or any training material. Do you know why? The organization KNEW that if I was properly trained then we would both make money! Imagine such a thing!!

I am a licensed stockbroker & investment advisor and have been for quite some time. I only make money when I sell products to my clients so obviously I need to know a lot of different details about a lot of different products. Quixtar isn't quite as complicated as the stock market in my opinion so why are the IBO's asked to attend "training meetings" and buy "training materials" on a weekly and monthly basis?? Once you learn it I would think you'd not need to continue learning it over and over and over? It kind of reminds me of communism... looks great on paper but doesn't really work when put into practice.

Oh yes I have 2 friends that are doing this and have made a whopping $250 dollars over the last year or so. Nevermind the trips to North Carolina, the books, the tapes, the cds,... I figure they're about $500 in the hole after all the hassle.

After talking with my up-line and his up-line who is a "close" contact to Chris Brady and Orrin I was offered this explaination:
TOD was being attacked via the internet by a disgruntled former IBO who became offended by the religious overtones that were being distributed at a monthly seminar. This particular IBO happened to be gay. He then was able to hack into the home page of TOD and redirect surfers to his web site which spoke poorly (to say the least) of TOD. The story I received was that Brady and Woodward then took this IBO to court and settled out of court with him after explaining to him that they didn't mean to offend him. Actually the story continues to say that Brady was able to convince the IBO to resign with TOD.

My question is: how can two supposedly internet geniouses and system engineers that have won multiple awards and pattens let a commoner ruin their web-site? Do you think Bill Gates or D.Trump would have even talked turkey with this so called hacker? I think they would have squashed them under their fingernail.

My take in reading between the lines is that this scenario may be true, I think TOD is using it to hide behind the fact that they are being discovered to be another MLM scheme and only the first-ins are really making money.

Why now. If TOD or whatever they are called now is so great, why change the name of the business. Can somebody in TOD tell me why the name is changed. Is there to much heat on the business that they have to hide behind another name. That's pathetic. They take all these hard working people money, and try to build a business on integrity, and then switch the name. Didn't Amway do the same thing. I was in TOD for two years and didn't make anything close to what my upline said I would. I wonder know with the new name do you actually make money.

Why now. If TOD or whatever they are called now is so great, why change the name of the business. Can somebody in TOD tell me why the name is changed. Is there to much heat on the business that they have to hide behind another name. That's pathetic. They take all these hard working people money, and try to build a business on integrity, and then switch the name. Didn't Amway do the same thing. I was in TOD for two years and didn't make anything close to what my upline said I would. I wonder know with the new name do you actually make money.

Why now. If TOD or whatever they are called now is so great, why change the name of the business. Can somebody in TOD tell me why the name is changed. Is there to much heat on the business that they have to hide behind another name. That's pathetic. They take all these hard working people money, and try to build a business on integrity, and then switch the name. Didn't Amway do the same thing. I was in TOD for two years and didn't make anything close to what my upline said I would. I wonder know with the new name do you actually make money.

Why now. If TOD or whatever they are called now is so great, why change the name of the business. Can somebody in TOD tell me why the name is changed. Is there to much heat on the business that they have to hide behind another name. That's pathetic. They take all these hard working people money, and try to build a business on integrity, and then switch the name. Didn't Amway do the same thing. I was in TOD for two years and didn't make anything close to what my upline said I would. I wonder know with the new name do you actually make money.

I am finally don reading all the posts. I see that a lot of people try to start a business on there own. I just want to say If your looking to start a legit business,here is one that has worked for me and a lot others. You may research it all you want. The name of my business is Mary Kay. Its a wonderful company that provides you with lots of help.Its cosmetics company. Cosmetics are a commodity, people always need them and will always buy them, unlike clothes.So you always have customers who will buy them. Mary Kay is not a pyramid. We are simply rewarded for good work. What company do you know that actually rewards its employees. You can work as hard as you like or as little as you want. Of course it is a job, you must work at it, to succeed.
check out Mary Kays website if your interested.

Here's the bottom line.

If you had a legitimate way to make your dreams come true, would you let everybody in on the secret? or would you continue to make the cash and put it in your bank account? i think we all know the answer. tod and all these IBO's need you. Why? Because they are taking your money. I look back a couple of years ago at these infomercials about the books you can buy on real estate and how to get rich. The person getting rich is the one selling the books - DUH! Where are all the real estate moguls? Matter of fact, where's the guy selling the books? Put $20 in an envelope and mail it to yourself. It doesn't mean you just made $20

BOTTOM LINE - Please give your brain a chance!

BTW - I have 2 TOD guys I work with trying to recruit me bragging about how they are retiring soon etc... They are still here....I get vague answers, nothing in writing. Show me. Don't take me to a meeting etc... show me what you have made. I haven't seen it yet. I drive a nicer car than they do, own a larger home, even go on better vacations. They make more money than I. Then again my parents tought me to think for myself, work hard, and you will be rewarded. To all TOD fans, I am reaping the reward of a good work ethic and a good education. Why do I need TOD? I don't, Even if I was scratching to make a living I wouldn't spend good money for nothing in return. I forgot about all the good info. What do you learn? How to buy things? How to shop? If that's the case I am already a higher ranking gold member than any IBO. Take the money and time invest in a education if you have the need for learning. As an adult, if you need a mentor to hold your hand and tell you what is right and wrong, go to AA, it's free! I guess I am a firm believer in " If it smells like crap, looks like crap, - it's probably crap"
Face it, the get rich quick schemes of the world are played out. If you belong to TOD and are making money - SWEET! Then again I haven't seen your pics in the paper, on the internet, etc...
Why not? becasue it just is not happening. I dont see them on the nasdaq, stock exchange, nothing. I am writing because like anyone I was curious, but I am not ignorant. If you want to get played for a fool, send me half of what your sending to TOD and I will call you and tell you everythings gonna be alright. We will have a weekly meeting, but you dont have to buy tapes etc...just sit in a pew and listen. We wont even make you pay for the room your sittig in. We are so nice. It's almost insulting, isnt it? They are doing everything but calling you brain dead idiots that can't think for yourselves. Can you see the pyramid? "No" All those bricks are in the way!

A famous man once said "Here's you sign"

BOTTOM LINE - Money talks and BS walks. What do you have in your wallet?

I am currently a participant with the TOD and hold an IBO. I have found out the following about the TOD.

You have to spend an inordinate amount of money for stuff that you can get for less at local stores. The TOD response to this is that these local stores don't pay you to shop there when the partner stores and quixtar do. They only pay you if you amass 100 PV points in one month cumulative and then you get 3% of your BV points. I have spent over $100 in shipping for the last 3 months to earn only a top end of 67 PV points. Therefore, I have yet to receive a check. I can get myself or my wife out of the house to go to Wal-Mart or ohter retailers and save the shipping costs and even save money on the items.

TOD response would be that you are buying from yourself and helping to support your "team" and that you have to have patients. Good things come to those who wait.

I have waited and I fail to see the benefit of TOD. After 3 months of discussing the TOD with other professional intelligent business people, not unlike the people at the weekly meetings, and being scrutinized and rejected by my family members and friends, I will no longer participate with the TOD. Do I think it is a rip-off? I think the underlying premise is solid; but once the wolf is discovered under the sheep skin the Team of Destiny will become the Team of Dispair

I just wanted to say thank you to all of those who have shared what I believed all along to be a terrible mistake to get involved in - TOD. I have several friends, family members and outside acquaintances who have pressured my husband and me to ge involved with this "business". I actually was giving it some thought. I am so glad I listed to my husbands BS detector and my "little voice" telling me that this just doesn't sound right. And reading all of this just confirms what we were both thinking. Anyway, I just wanted to say thank you - I am not 100% POSITIVE I will never become part of this "tragedy".

I just want to clear the statement made by Rich that the TOD is nothing more than Orrin's Line of Sponsership. I am part of the TOD and Orrin does not see one penny from my business and I am no where in his line of sponsership. Orrin is a crossline to me. I have been in the business for a year and I still love the TOD! Check you all later!

An old friend of mine whom I havent spoken to in 10 years called me out of the blue to sell me on the TOD.

He brought over his best friend, and they tried to recruit me.

I was amazed to see how strongly they believed in TOD, even though they have been doing it for a year and still have yet to profit from it.

From my investigations, I've determined that it is a pyramid-like scheme, actually made up of clusters of pyramids. The claims of legality and BBB registration really mean nothing. I say this because if my friends could be so "brainwashed" into this, it's obvious the founders could easily dupe the BBB and/or investigate and exploit loopholes in pyramid-scheme law.

When I declined to sign up (I read the book and listened to part of the CD's they left with me) they seemed apalled, shocked that I did not believe it was sound.

They gave me the impression that I was a fool, and that TOD was the simplest, easiest, cheapest way to become financially indepandant. They spoke of being "locked" to my financial situation and they said "Some people are just happy making what they make and are unwilling to change philosphies". This was insulting to me, because I do not fit in that category.

Basically their sales tactic is this: Join TOD to become rich in 2-5 years. If you don't you MUST be content with what you make now, and do not wish to become Financially Independant. *** BRAINWASH CITY FOLKS! THIS IS NOT THE ONLY WAY TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN LIFE!***

This was hard to believe knowing that these two people haven't yet profitted from this venture (Meaning "useable" quantities of money).

As with any pyramid scheme - the boys at the bottom will have to bite the bullet when the whole thing crumbles. For 2-5 years they must recruit others, and buy good online (law loophole mentioned earlier).

Someone's getting rich on their back.

It was too unethical for me to join, besides I have other business opportunities - Honest ones - that could very well lead me to be an IBO and make me financially independant.

Yes James, you are correct about everything you submitted and more. It does seem that the pro TOD responses are from the uneducated "unwashed masses", but I must tell you about the so-called educated and intelligent people that have been hoodwinked too- namely myself and my husband.

We are business owners who were approached by a former employee about TOD. As our business has been struggling in this terrible economy and we were just plain beat-up by our very tough industry, we decided to take a look at one of the weekly Tuesday meetings. We were told that it was a business meeting, business dress, etc. I thought it very ODD that everyone stood up, clapped and screamed when the speaker was introduced.

The plan show was logical and it looked to us like it could really work, so we gave it some credit. But at the meeting break when we were introduced to the former employees upline, the couple gave both my husband and myself a hug. VERY ODD for a business meeting! Even so, we stayed open minded enough to go to the upcoming convention to check TOD out.

Then convention was out of town and did end up being kind of fun since it was like a pep rally. But it ran so late into the night and was so VERY LONG and VERY TIRING. To wear down your reservations against TOD? And when I saw thousands of tapes and CDS for sale that were recordings of the TOD speakers, I got a real sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. This is how money is made- by selling tapes??!?? After the seminar, we realized that we really didn't learn anything about how this business is run, what is the market, what EXACTLY has to be done to be sucessful, how to really make money- you know, the sort of things that would be explained if you were really buying into a business.

Even with all these strikes against it, we decided to join TOD (remember being told "Just walk by faith, why care about how you make the money, just keep going to meetings, keep on the system, etc." The only one I willing to walk by faith with is God!!) to see if the diamond speakers were telling the truth.

So, yes, we changed our buying habits and started buying whatever we could through Quixtar for 150 PV per month, got on the tape of the week and book of the month system, showed the plan 15 times a month or more, went to the monthly seminars and the 3x per year conventions and built a BIG team. Seems that folks believed us, as we had believed.

Bet you are all waiting with baited breath about all the financial rewards we reaped!! Well, we financially rewarded all our uplines, especially diamonds Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady and Tim Marks and overpaid for products brought from Quixtar. THE LARGEST CHECK WE EVER RECEIVED WAS $75!!!!!

After the umteenth month of paying, paying, paying, we said this was ENOUGH. I found out by mistake (a slip of information) from my gold upline wife (whom I had become friends with), that by FAR, the VAST MAJORITY OF MONEY MADE BY IBOS IS FROM SELLING BOOKS, TAPES AND TICKETS!!!
So much for just changing your shopping habits and getting others to do the same! And I just couldn't pay another $32 for toilet paper that costs $9 at Costco.

So here's the tally of business costs after 14 months:

Weekly Tuesday meetings: $300
Weekly tapes: TOD, PPS, SOL:$1080
Monthly book: $170
Monthly seminar: $250
Monthly 150 PV: $7000
Conventions(tickets, hotels, gas, meals, buying first night tools, etc.): $3200
Gas to run around to show the plan: $4380
Meals on the road: $1500

Grand Total $17,880

What a deal! $75 checks for 17K!

Oh, I almost forgot. TOD leaders call it an "HONOR" for IBOS to work as unpaid labor for seminars and conventions. What, the millionaire diamonds cannot afford to pay for staff for events??

I will keep this short - Firstly I must say I'm a little upset that no-one has commented on my lengthy comment a couple of months ago, but maybe that's because it's true.

Secondly, Megan darling, you can barely construct proper sentences, your posting borders on meaninglessness, how can you even pretend to advise others?

This seems to be a trend in these postings, the vast majority, though not all, posted in favour of these mind-control cults like TOD are written by people who are clearly poorly educated. This is further emphasised by stories in other threads about people being approached by street people trying to sell them insurance from Primerica etc. I submit that these companies should be investigated and shut down for the way that they milk the poor and uneducated of their last few dollars. Sadly though, I suspect, that in the grand USA where the almighty buck rules -this will never happen.

Hey its up to you if you want to
1. Join the TOD
2. If it for you
3. What does your dreams mean to you?
I can tell you that I stand proud to say that Im on TOD and that I am on system. In all of the books that I have read that have nothing to do with TOD say that books, tapes and assocation is what you need. You need to be able to not only help others out but you also have to be willing to change yourself and who you are. If your not willing to see your faults and your not willing to give this a chance then hey thats your choice but dont be bringing your 95% thinking to the rest of us. Cause they way that you think is reason why you are where you are.

Skeptics, people looking for something, and my fellow IBO's:
It is wonderful what this business has done to all of us. It kindled a fire deep inside each and every one of us to dream so much more. "Have Fun, Make Money, and Make a Difference" is our motto.

Yeh it may be kinda wierd to someone on the other side but that is what we do. We have fun by creating friendships with new individuals and taking them along on the journey. We make money by creating a passive income through our business's. (Which is legal, moral, and ethical: otherwise I wouldn't do it) And we make a difference not only by taking to and sharing this wonderful idea with others but we help others who need it most. The Team of Destiny's cornerstone of its' foundation is Integrity.

As to the "Ripoff in LasVegas" quote, there is a single woman in Las Vegas all alone tearing it up!!! She is mopping the floor with some of us back east. My hat is off to her!!!

If you are looking at TOD for the first time trying to find an answer for yourself on the internet, stop. Shut off your computer, get a pencil and paper. Write down everything you want to own and achieve in your life. Everything on that piece of paper can be achieved through this bussiness. Material things or helping the less fortunate it doesn't matter, if you are willing to sacrifice short term pleasure for long term happiness you will live your dreams. This business is 100% duplicatable and 100% predictable, take hold of your dreams with this awsome system and make them a reality.

Go Patriots!!!!!!!
"God put dreams in your heart for a reason you are meant to get them!" Orrin Woodward

I have just recently heard about this TOD. I am curious why my friend told me, I could be a client at no charge and shop the site. ( I wouldn't get the member discount but could still shop there) She gave me a password and said she would recieve credit for my spending. Sounded great to support her. And hey, I thought I could actually compare the prices for products and shipping. (since she of course, could not tell me any actual numbers for this)And maybe it might be a venture worth trying. But I can find nothing on this company that supports their claims. Other then defenders claiming but not proving anything.

I am a believer in the "Show me the money" phrase.

To all these defenders of TOD.. Why is their no monetary statistics? I want to know.. How long you been doing it? How much was your last years worth of checks? How long before you could actually pay for your start up costs? Did you really get everything tax deducted last year when you filed? Ie. clothing, travel, meals, etc. And the most important.. Can you prove it?

I am a person of facts and will only spend money if you can prove there is money to be made. Convince me with your W2's, 1099's and tax returns. Can anyone out here do that?

TOD is one of the biggest con scams I have ever been involved with in my entire life. You pay to become a member a rediculous amount of money, well over $250. You pay for all these expensive meetings that don't cost $5, but cost, $10, $15, $25 and even some bigger events that cost literally hundreds of dollars. Its all chants, cult like stuff, over and over people talking about their lives over and over - and you pay to hear this nonsense. Most of the people are faking it till they making it, which means you are in a meeting room with tons of people faking that they are making money. very very few people ever make it. TOD IS PURE LIES.

When you buy a $6 tape, its someone talking for 30 minutes to 1hr talking about their life or what they did to be successful in the business, which is basically a regurgitation of what everyone else says. TOD is a HARD CORE SCAM! AMWAY and QUIXTAR are plane and simple a MLM scam and destroying the lives of many people such as myself.

Stay away and don't believe all the lies and BS from the other people on here.

Just get down to basics here...
TOD is nothing more than Orrin Woodward's line of sponsorship from Quixtar.
Quixtar is Amway's internet presence. Orrin is one of the 'higher ups' in Quixtar and he started TOD as his downline...
For every penny you spend (or make, etc...) on the Quixtar website, Orrin gets a cut.
When I first heard the TOD spill, they never said anything to me about selling anything. They just said "Buy stuff from yourself and show others how to do the same..."
Well, since Quixtar has been under pressure about this type of business, they have slowly started preaching a little different...
For all you that are in it, I sure hope you do well and I wish you the best of luck, but no amount of your criticizing my "J.O.B." (as you all so eloquently like to demean working folk) will ever convince me that this is nothing more than a glorified and (barely) legalized pyramid (all though it's more of a straight line than a pyramid - I guess it's a more direct route straight down - ha!)
For all you that are thinking about getting in it, my advice to you is make absolutely certain you know what you are getting into. Don't let the 'millionaire' talk get you into something you'll regret.
Check it out before you commit...
Let the bashing begin...I'm outta here...

If all of these individuals who support this scheme are so happy whyt not give the facts? How much did you NET on this adventure? I bet it was much less than the $2000 per month I was quoted. What were your actual overhead costs? How many hours per week/month did you put into this? I will bet it's much more than the 5 hours per week I was quoted.

CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.

Some Points of Information on Team Of Destiny:
1)Orin Woodward & Chris Brady are Diamond members of the Quixtar/Amway family who have branched off into the tools business.
2)The average IBO in this business grosses $111
per month.
3)The FTC considers a business illegal if its main purpose is to buy and sell within it's own ranks.

So what makes Team of Destiny different from Quixtar/Amway? Well, it is the speed at which they recruit members, and the emphasis they put on buying tapes, books, and paying for seminars
(also known to most as the tools business).

And this is what is replayed time and time again, tape after tape, book after book:"to achieve success, you must work within the system".

I ask all TOD members to tell us how much they make off the retail sales of the "wholesale" product they buy. Most of those who are making nothing are too embarrassed to come forward with their plight, and it's sad, because there is another 98% of them going through the same thing.

Have they added up the cost of the "optional" tapes, books, and seminars"? Do ANY of the recruits remain members for more than a year without buying tapes, books, and attending the rallies? They say it's optional, but refusing to buy into the "system" is paramount to sinning, and most "sinners" get cut off from the organization.


Quixtar/Amway allow these "black hats" to function in this way for fear of losing their distribution list, so they are indirectly aiding and abetting. None of these members are thinking for themselves anymore; they sound like a skipping record. True independance and freedom lies in realizing that the obsession with the mighty greenback can convince anybody their way is "THE" way.

I recently listned to about 50 tapes from the team of destiny that I bought off ebay. I grew up around the business and have heard hundreds of tapes and I have never heard a better mix of specific training, leadership skills, and sincere heart. I am very interested in the TOD power player program and thier method of building depth. I would like to find out more. If you are involved and having success, please write me at
[DELETED]. Thanks

Just because your sister is driven by a different dream, it does not mean that dream is somehow non-christian. The TOD orginization is a very christian organization. It is founded in those Christian philophosies. If you had more money,what good things could you accomplish "behind the scenes"? Alot of successful people are those people behind the scenes. I know of successful people in the TOD organization who now dedicate their new found free time to worth while endeavors for the needy such as meals on wheels, the Ronald McDonald house, and mission trips for their church. These people are not in the headlines, and they are exactly those people you are talking about. Your sister sounds like the person who could do a lot of good once she is "financially free". What would you say if your sister is able to leave her current job, and be a teacher for some unfortunate kids in Haiti for a couple of years since she does not have to be to her "normal job"? All I can say is "Good people do good things with Money, Bad people do bad things with money" I know my church is already benefitting from my small new income. They will continue to benefit much more greatly as my sucees continues. So do not lose hope in your sister, she is associated with a great "Christian based system" Which hopefully will allow her to be more help to those people she feels needs her special gifts as a teacher.

Continue caring,

I was getting depressed at reading all the postings to this site, as I'm sure many are/have been, but from what I read, I didn't sense any responses with the feelings that I have concerning TOD.

I have a sister who is involved in TOD and asked me to come to a meeting so that I could see what they were becoming involved in. There was no pressure from her to join for which I am greatly appreciative. The changes I have seen in her in the few years since her involvement I cannot say have been positive as a whole. What I heard in the meeting that they asked me to attend was a presentation which downgraded my present life choices and encouraged me to live my "dream."

Being a Christian man, my dreams did not line up with the expected "dreams" that the presenter wanted me to say and kept asking for more, which focused on material wealth, and the assumed social status with that wealth. My "dreams" focused more on health, family, and contentment with what God has truely blessed me. My dreams are not to look at my life in the context of my glass being half empty or half full, but to choose the correct glass had live my life to the fullness that it is, which we so often miss because of our race to lofty worldly goals.

What I have seen in my sister and her family since, is an increasing reliance on TOD meetings and less on contact with her family, church, and community. She starts talking about being able to quit her job so she can start doing things that can make a difference in the community, but my experience is that the people who make the difference in the community are the ones who are not in the headlines, but are the ones working behind the scenes in the small ways mostly unnoticed. She is currently a teacher and is very gifted at her job, but that gift has unfortunatly been downgraded by her "mentors" at TOD. Yes, they sell products, but they also seem to sell lifestyle choices, and I'm not so sure I would turn to an organization that is selling products to lead me in making my life better and happier...

I recently moved back home to be closer to my family as we all grow older only to have my sister move further and further away relationally because I have become what one of her tapes I believe referred to as a landmine in her map to success. To be supportive doesn't mean you always have to agree with the person...but to be real and honest. Because I don't agree, I am on the outside. People may become financially free thru TOD, but at what cost... I am disheartened but always have hope.

To anyone who reads this,

How many times have you been told to go to school, get good grades, keep your nose clean, and get a good job and you'll be set? How many of you have followed this formula today and are not in a financially good situation? If your wife is working so the two of you can make a house payment there is something wrong with that picture. Who do you think your children are going to be like when they happen to grow old? They will be like you and live the way you live because that is the only way they know how to live. If you control your thoughts, then you can control your actions. If you can control your actions, you can create habits. When you create habits you have results that reflect your habits. I hope we all can be in agreement that reading material that can help with skills you use everyday is a good thing. Or is reading self-improving material in this country looked down upon in this country? I can proudly say i am involved with then Team of Destiny and that I have learned more in the last three months from books in the system than i have ever learned in high school and college together. I was not a slacker in high school, so don't get the impression I never payed any attention. I was a 3.0 student in high school and college. Three books that greatly influence your everyday affairs with people that i recommend even if you are not affialated with the Team of Destiny are:

How to Win Friends and Influence People
By Dale Carnegie

Personality Plus
By Florence Liteaur

Thinking for a Change
By John Maxwell

These three books will help you beyond your wildest dreams when you sspeak with people daily. Repitition is a key to success. Do you think that most poeple want to remember the Giligan's Island song for the rest of their life. But how do they Know it, reptition. You aren't the best person at your job on the first day. It takes repition of daily routines to acquire the knowledge to perform your job at the highest level. Am I right or Am i Wrong with the things I so far presented in this rebuttal? Ask anything to anyone involved in this business who has taken this with a reasonable timeframe, that being two to five years; the time it normally takes to see if a conventional Self-Employed business if successful or not. Your mind is like a parachute it is no use unless it is opened.

Sorry for those can't believe,

Garrett Huffman

Leonard you are a engineer so you already make good money. People who already have good jobs can last a little bit longer in TOD than people who have normal jobs. Most of the successful people in TOD was already successful before they got in like yourself. I was in TOD for a year and eight months. Just like you at five months I made enough money to cover my books and tapes, but honestly it wasn't covering everything like Jeff said. At the five month mark I was very fired up but the money never increased but the information did. You already know that you have to do 15 plans a month why do you need a seminar to tell you that. At the five month mark you have enough tapes to fill up two garbage bags why do you need anymore. Around the five-six month mark the information starts repeating itself, and I'm not questioning your intelligents because I know your smart if your an engineer, but sometimes you can get so wrapped up in it that you don't realize that your spending out way more than you have coming in. TOD is only around because of people like me and you, well know you because they try to make you feel like your less of a man if you dont do it, when your only doing amway. So leonard be smart if you go to every function why do you have to pay for it over again on a tape, all they do is tape every function and put it on a tape so you can pay for it again, after you already paid to get in the function. Talk to your upline about that. That's not smart!

Well Leonard, I am not sure how far you will go in the "bussiness" since there is no such thing. Before you get to far involved please make sure you know how to spell, that way all your professional documents such as the big money checks will be sent to the correct person.
Good luck in in your business!!

....Just out of curiosity how much did you have to spend to make the pay out you received.
And does it include your time, gas money, seminars, shipping, product cost, lunches to get people involved, tapes, clothes to look sharp in,books and all the other goodies.

Thanks

I have attended several of the Tuesday night meetings. I am a member of the TOD. I am not a millionaire. I would love to be a millionaire. I have a good job as an engineer here in Michigan. We have lots of people in our group that have made money on MLM's. But I have to differ with the person who says that only Platinum and above make money. That is not true at all. I have been involved for 5 monthes now. I have made checks varying from 5 dollars to 150 dollars. The latter more often and most recent. But the one thing I can say is I peronally know someone making about $1200 per month while spending only $300 to $350 per month. Now that is a profit. He invests about 5 to 10 hours a week on this bussiness. Now I know someone that has made nothing. Now what none of the people above have talked about is a major point to me. None of the other Quixtar groups have profit sharing. TOD does. TOD makes a profit on the tickets to seminars they sell(cost is $90 per ticket). They make money on the tapes. (cost is $6 per tape).

But they do share the profits down the Line of sponsership with the successful leaders on the TOD. NO OTHER GROUP IN QUIXTAR SHARES THIS WAY. Those groups the money is kept at the top. These profit sharing goes beyond the Platinum level too. There is an example of effort also. There is a person who got in the TOD just after Orrin did. This person put no effort in. He did not build a team. Now Chris Brady who got in after this person has built teams and has made a good living from this. But the person in between Orrin and Chris Brady only makes $15 to $20 dollars. Again an example that the person at the top does not always make the most money. I make more money than the person 2nd from the top. Also I have never been told that "I HAVE TO BUY TAPES OR BOOKS, OR HAD TO ATTEND A SEMINAR". That is always told to be an option. But in what other bussiness in the world would you get to learn how to do a bussiness (any bussiness) from the most successful person in that bussiness? Would I get to knock on Donald Trumps door and have him tell me how to make money in Real Estate or Casinos?

No I might get arrested for nkocking on his door and asking that. The seminars provide those oppurtunities to the people who want to take those. I will not tell you this bussiness is easy. It is not. It is not a get rich sceam. It takes time and effort. You have to want to put forth that effort, and have people working with you both upline and downline from you who want it as bad as you, and it will work. If you have not heard of the TOD, I can promise you you will hear about it someplace other than here sooner or later. This is a MLM bussiness that works.
P.S. Walmart has just approached us to become a partnered store. We told them no thank you, we already have everything they have for sale on our site.

Just to let you know Mike, peanut butter is $14 for a CASE! I would have to agree with you on your point that "Nothing is free and things come by honest hard work." Well said. If anyone joins the team of destiny and thinks it's an easy money for nothing thing, I'm sorry you thought that. This business requires some time and work. After all, you're dealing with people who just don't know the facts. They think peanut butter is $19 a jar. It's not their fault. They just don't know. The work is going out a finding people who are looking for something else enough to get all the information the need to make an educated decision. To anyone reading this report: Get your information from peope who have the results you're looking for. And just so you know, I don't have the results yet. I've been in since November and I'm at a point where the check I receive covers the cost of the products I buy and the support materials I invest in. So it's definatly worth my while and I am working with someone who does have the results.

Sean no one is bursting peoples bubbles. TOD is step by step taking the money from people like you. You are so brainwashed that you wouldn't no when to quit if Orin hisself told you so. You soung just like them meetings. Sean if you been in TOD for three years and your making money why haven't you done a seminar starring you as a diamond or emerald or at least platinum. You probably make one hundred dollars a month and paying five hundred a month and then try to get somebody to be financially free. Get real and just be honest the only people making money are the people platinum and above. So please respond with more the herd this the masses this. I read that book about the rhino, so I already know what your programmed to say I been there. So Sean I really hate to single you out but you guys kill me because you try to build wealth off telling lies, and by lies I mean you showing the plan and saying with me I can get you free from your job, I can get you your goals and dreams. Please I know you promised some poor guy/gal this dream but surprisingly you cant get this dream for yourself but your going to help somebody else.

Jonathon,

I think that you are right. It is total crap to give people hope in a world where there is such negativity. If you do not think that there is a lot of negative things going on, just watch the national news for a week. I think that you will find only the bad events being reported. The good news doesn't pay to report. The bad is worth more to the public than the good. The masses follow the bad stuff. So here we are again just letting you know what a waste of your time it is trying to burst the bubbles of nice people. Let, me ask you this. Since you are such a good stratagist, why did you even look at this company with all the money that you are making. You know with everyone in the country calling you for advice. Has Steve VanAndel called you to examine his company. Probably not, he is the founders son running a 40+ year old company that has never seen debt, and is still privately held. So, thank you for letting me know that I am stupid for getting into a marketing business that has made me money every month, since the third month that I became involved in Quixtar, that was over 3 years ago. And oh yes, I have had people quit. But, I also have people renew every year. I guess that are aren't the leader that you need to be. If you can't lead a 'herd' how can you lead one person?

CONGRATS ON BEING A Marketing Strategist who is hired by small and mid-sized businesses around this nation. And having businesses from Santa Rosa, California to Williamsburg, Virginia and from Chicago to Omaha hire you to come in, examine their business and its competition, and devise a strategy to make them successful. Who cares what you are? What was the purpose of stating profession in a cocky manner? Where you hoping that you would establish yourself as being the final authority on this subject? NO WAY

With that aside.. What you have to deal with Johnathan is that the majority of people do not succeed. Im sure that someone from TOD has made a fortune. Just as im sure that someone from Amway or one of a hundred differnt marketing scemes has been able to make a furtune. Do you see amway anymore? No beacuse there are more people that fail than there are that succeed. I dont have to deal with anything Johnathan, beacuse I dont disput that 1 out of a billion make it. With those odds maybe ill quit my job and devote all of my time to recruiting suckers. Hey maybe then my odds will be 2 out of a billion.

Another thing Johnathan, Your Law of Social Proof in no way applies to me. I made an independant decision on whether or not to pursue my luck with TOD. Nobody swayed my decision in the slightest. You cant say im part of a herd. What herd? I Know 5 people who even have an opinion about TOD and they are all oppisite of mine. If anyhting I said goodbye to the HERD. Its funny that you bring up The Law of Social Proof, beacuse at the tuesday night meetings that i went to they try to sway people by telling them there is a herd out there and every one of there critics is part of the UNINFORMED HERD. Maybe the herd is right! Maybe there isnt a herd but rather alot of people who agree on the subject of the TOD.

Your tuesday night meeting sounded very differnt from the ones i attended. Nobody ever once said anything about downlines falling apart or the bussiness being hard.

One last thing bfore i go. What is a nattering nabob of negativism? Is that Marketing Strategist talk.

I could have posted this response in any number of mlm ripoff reports...Amway/Quixitar, Primerica etc. My response is valid across the spectrum.

I live in South Africa and I was a part of two mlms, Golden Products (now known as GNLD) - specifically the "Eagle Team" and Herbalife when if first came to South Africa. I left both of these years ago but I have been continually amazed in reading the consumer reports about the above mentioned companies and how their tactics are almost exactly the same, to the point where one wonders if they simply have a common pool of tapes and speeches from which their respective "diamonds" (or various other precious stones) drawn from.

I will relate my experience and may comment on things I have read here and elsewhere. Read my tale about a company that has (surprisingly) not found its way onto ripoffreports and compare your experience and (as stage magicians are wont to say...) be amazed!

In the beginning...
I was taken to a "plan showing" where I sat with a friend I trusted. There were many people - all with a sponsor (you could not come in without a sponsor) but there were also many experienced members who gave "testimonies" and the "plan shower" wove a mystical yarn as he illuminated your mind to the wondrous possibilities this business could bring. As he spoke he showed with the aid of dollar signs the power of multiplication and how with relatively little work you could make a living and with lots of work you could be a millionaire within 5 years. I freely admit that I personally reacted purely out of greed and did not comprehend what lay ahead. I should add that I was very involved in a moderately conservative Baptist Church and my "sponsor" was a member of this church as was her mother. How I got on to them was through my sponsor's brother who was a good friend of mine and a pastor in training. My point is I trusted him and I trusted the family -I also trusted the other members of the team, many of whom were members in my church. They stressed continuously at every opportunity about how Christian based the company is and how God has blessed us with this opportunity. They also had some very un-Christian things to say about those who saw the plan and didn't sign. I will sum up later with a comparison between the Christian religion and Golden products (read...any mlm).

Baby-steps:
I paid my money and my sponsor did a kit-opening with me where the wonders of the products were extolled. Besides this one occasion and a product info slot in the Monday training evening - this was the last I heard about the products except of course being encouraged to buy any and all products for my house as well as the suggestion (almost command) to banish from my house any other products in competition with my mlm. My home was to be a "Golden" home and I was forbidden to use words like "Sunlight" or "Handy-Andy" (very well known consumer brands in South Africa) - these were treated as swear words. The products were very expensive, (they would tell us how concentrated it was, and what good quality it was and how scientific experts had developed them etc) - but despite being so "concentrated" they did not last as long as other "shop" brands and sometimes were not as effective although many of the products were good to very good.

Blind leading the blind:
The involvement with the "Eagle Team" was all encompassing but I did not get the cult feeling until later - I was so enthralled by their Christian faith and my greed that I failed to see the wood for the trees. It was emphasised that everything we discussed and learned about was confidential - and no one outside the "Eagle Team" (even in other Golden Product-GNLD teams)was to known what was taught. Before we even received price lists for the products we got price lists for the "training materials" of which we were encouraged to buy at least one a week. I can hear the squeals of "But they are optional" - yes of course they were optional but you were told in no uncertain terms that if you did not buy the tapes and books and immerse yourself in them (i.e. listen to the tapes from sun-up to sun-down and read the books when you were not listening to the tapes) you would not know how to succeed in the business and you would stay a foot soldier forever. How optional is that? I began to feel the pinch in my wallet before my conscience was twinged.

Friends:
We were told that the secret to "Eagle Team's" success was that our team did not make money by selling products like most other teams - you would make very little money that way - our team made money by signing-up downline and so we were encouraged to make a list of 100 friends and family (no matter how remote) and then we would go our sponsor's house for phoning once a week. No matter where they were in the country or the world, we were given a script and told to phone and encourage them to go to a plan showing. I am sad to say that in doing this I alienated many friends who I had not called in a while and when they did hear from me I was trying to "help them fulfil their dreams" (read "Help them line their pockets...and mine in the process!)I am ashamed that I even got work colleges involved who lost precious money and time in this cult - some may no doubt still be in its web - I hope not and fortunately I did not sign too many people up.

The scales fell from my eyes:
I was involved for almost a year - I attended meetings 5 days (sometimes 6) a week and I slowly became uneasy about the methods used and things I saw. Firstly there was an inordinate emphasis on money (which I suppose I should not have been surprised at) but more than that - the people we were to sign up were a means to an end (those of us sitting there don't draw the logical conclusion that we were a means to their end - and so on). Of course they use terms like, "help them to be financially free, reach their dreams etc" but that is a pretext. They taught us to visualize what we wanted, the car or whatever and to be very specific in terms of colour, model, features etc as this would help us to reach it. It was very close to a New Age view of reality. It became clear that this group as all mlms truly - worshipped money and not God or any deity.

The last straw:
I attended a quarterly rally which was held in different places 4 times a year where everyone in the "Eagle Team" in South Africa comes together under the big names (diamonds etc) to be enthused and trained. Of course you pay your way totally but upline made sure you got there. The days were long and consisted of a time of singing which were essentially worship songs extolling the virtues of riches, Golden Products (GNLD) and the "Eagle Team". They were *extremely* catchy and even had the most conservative old men jiving along by the end of the weekend. The most interesting aspect for me was when the leader of the "Eagle Team" Charlie came to speak to us, it went like this. The senior leaders called for quiet. They played "Eye of the Tiger" over the sound system very loud - we (the audience) stood and clapped rhythmically while Charlie walked down the centre isle to the stage at which time the clapping had reached fever pitch. He raised his hands and we fell silent, he told us to sit, we did and he then proceeded to address us. If that is not cultish behaviour then I don't know what is.

The aftermath:
Shortly after that experience, I realised what was going on and I stopped attending the training. It was then that I experienced the bad side of the team - initially they phoned almost every day asking me why I had not come and what was going on (I made excuses) - It eventually became clear that I was not coming back - Soon I learned that while they called people who did not sign at the plan showing "fools" they had much fouler terms for those that were in the "circle" who had seen the potential and then left - they refused to speak to or even greet me in the street or church. To tell the truth, I was glad for it. I stayed friends with their son until he joined the Eagle Team as well and then he stopped talking to me as well.

Analysis:
Before I draw a conclusion - ask yourself (if you have been involved in any mlms) just how similar was your experience to mine? From reading the experiences of others I suspect it may be very similar. I concluded that Golden Products (GNLD) but specifically the "Eagle Team" and other mlms is a cult bordering on a independent religion with money as its god. Take a look at the parallels:

ESSENTIAL
*Mondays* - Training, Encouragement (Church Service - Preaching, Prayer)
*Tuesdays* - Product/Process Training (Bible Study)
*Wednesdays* - Plan Showing (Evangelism)
*Thursdays* - Phoning (Evangelism)
*Fridays* - Kit Opening (Discipleship)
*Saturdays* (once a month) - Avo Rally - Cheques handed out (Testimonies)
*Sundays* - Free (attend "normal" church but not essential)

Quarterly Events - (Crusades for the converted)

Treatment of those who reject "the plan" = fools destined for a dull, slavish existence (their hell)

Treatment of those who leave the movement = traitors, possibly a threat to them and subjected to "excommunication" by being ostracised from their community etc. (See how Jehovah's Witnesses treat those who leave the movement)

Closing Comments:
It's very sad to see how people are being deluded and brain washed (there is no other way around explaining having to listen to tapes, read books and attend seminars all day everyday - where do you have time to do anything else and think clearly) and they promise financial freedom but all they deliver is bondage. If you are in a mlm, they show you yachts and fast cars - do you really think your extremely rich up line (who do exist but are very few) have time to take round the world trips? They are bound to their down line, if they take 2 months off what will happen to their business? They cannot afford to and neither will you if, on the statistically insignificant chance, you make to where they are. When I read the comments from some of the supporters of among others TOD, they simply repeat the tag line of the latest talk or tape they have listened to - its so obvious and doubly sad. Remember for every diamond (or whatever your equivalent is) there must be thousands of foot soldiers and that must always be the case - most people sadly will stay foot soldiers while they plough their last few dollars into the coffers of a man/woman who knows in order for them (the diamond) to stay where they are, the foot soldier must stay where they are.

If you argue that even conceding the point above, "Why shouldn't I be one of those few diamonds?" The answer is that (unless you don't care), their money is made off the backs of countless suckers who fork out for tapes and books to better their miserable lives instead of pulling themselves up and getting an education and a real job that depends on sweat and dedication not a subservient and ever multiplying down line. The money is immoral money and you must also realise that (and there are many websites to back this up) the mlm model is mathematically unsustainable, so the mlm ironically depends for its survival on the untruth that it perpetuates throughout its organisation, that everyone can realise their dream because patently, they can't.

I realise for some people mlms represent a life line and hope - unfortunately this a concrete life ring and hopeless chatter. I'm sorry but my advice is get out while you still have some dollars in your pocket. Sadly there will always be suckers - and there will always be mlms - You have been warned.

PS I am no longer in the church, but for completely different reasons but all the above took place while I was actively involved.

I believe that everything with TOD doesn't workout like suggested. I was with TOD for 1year and 8 months and didn't make any money. My team all never renewed. That's just my experience but I wont bash the concept and say that it flat out doesn't work. Maybe I wasn't the leader I needed to be to make it work. But Honestly, It gets kind of old spending more money than you have coming in just to pay for your leaders vacation. It also gets kind of old quoting all the leaders when you recieve a six dollar check after doing 150pv. Sometimes I felt brain washed because at times when I knew I should stop spending money I kept spending to meet my business needs. I almost had to file bankruptcy before I snapped out of my trance. So be real to yourself and know when enough is enough. If this Business is working for you keep pluggin away and get free. But dont think TOD is the only vehicle. I found another vehicle that works for me. Theirs such things like delayed gratification but having to wait until your platinum just to get kick backs on tapes and seminar tickets is simply not wise. Now I know why my upline Platinums wanted me and my wife at every seminar( in his words buts in the seats). Trust me they dont love you that much. Dont do the optional things because you dont have the money and see how much they care about you. You'll never hear from them when you're not spending money. In fact I only heard from my upline at the end of the month when they reminded me to do 150pv for surprise 150pv parties. Let me stop here because I know I'm hitting home with alot of the believers, but to be honest I was one of those fired up guys in the back hoping I would get free from this concept but ended up broke. TOD is honestly Amway on the internet. Just like most people is bitter with Amway TOD has left that bitter Amway feeling with me. I was so fired up at one time I didn't even know I was doing Amway. The information is good don't get me wrong, but I needed to make money. So if you like information, TOD is the way to go, But if you want to earn real money without doing Scamway, you must find a different vehicle.

No one can think for himself? Then how do you explain my response just a few posts ago, Mike? After throughly examining this business, I decided to leave. NOT because I think it's a bad business model, but because of my not appreciating the religious emotion injected into the major seminars.

Can't think for myself? I am a Marketing Strategist who is hired by small and mid-sized businesses around this nation. That's right, I live in Michigan, but businesses from Santa Rosa, California to Williamsburg, Virginia and from Chicago to Omaha hire me to come in, examine their business and its competition, and devise a strategy to make them successful.

No, TOD/Quixtar does not fit into the model of business to which you are accustomed. Yes, some individuals might decide to introduce you to the business by whetting your appetite with pictures of a successful future. But guess what? That's exactly what sales organizations all over the world do. It's a simple selling tactic: Find out what people want, show them how others reached such goals, then point the way toward this success with what you're offering. The fact that TOD makes such introductions makes them NO DIFFERENT than any other sales organization on the planet.

What you have to deal with, Mike, is this: lots and lots of people really HAVE realized their dreams. They HAVE quit their jobs. Now my experience was that these individuals did not softsell how hard it was to achieve what they did. They spoke of building downlines--only to have them fall apart and then have to virtually start all over again. They were NOT hiding the hard work that needed to be done.

Again, I'm not in TOD, and I'm not necessarily encouraging or discouraging anyone from getting into TOD. But when I hear people like you spouting the same old baloney, I have to shine the spotlight on what you really are: a full fledged member of the herd. A nattering nabob of negativism. And I leave you with this message... "MOOOOOOO!!!"

All of the comments made by the Pro-TOD are the same ones made at every tuesday night meeting. Nobody has a mind of there own, they only know what they have been told to tell. I went to 3 meetings and at first thought it was a great idea. They always talk about walmart and the steps of distrubtion. It sounds good the way they present it. There presentation sounds something like this " WE have taken Sam Walton's idea one step further. We have totally removed the distribution chain and we save tons by removing the middle men. It gets even better you can get rich and have everything you ever wanted." That sounds good, but once you sign up and are finally allowed to look at the website, you find that peanut butter is 19 dollars a jar. Stop and think about this... They say they save all this money on the distribution, then why in the world is peanut butter 19 freaking dollars. The answer somebody is getting rich and its not me.
Another thing that bothered me about these meetings is they dont try and sell you the bussiness, what they do instead is try to sell you the idea that this is the answer to your dreams. Litterally at one meeting they had us write on paper things that you would love to have. What they do is build up excitement through materialistic dreams, and then tell you that you can have these things, without working. To the average idiot that sounds great. Sign me up!!

And to respond to the people that say they dont make money on the optional books and tapes. HOG WASH! The books and tapes are optional but ESSENTIAL. That doesn't sound optional now does it! IT is optional if you want to fail. They have ways of wording things and getting around the truth. Think about this. I listen to a tape telling how to answer objections people had... the tape gave word for word answers. Like i stated before nobody knows how to respond other than what they have been told say. You hear the same things all the time. BRAINWASHED I SAY
.

I have alot more to say about this TOD. I hope I have helped some people to realize this well crafted play on peoples dreams.
remember these two things and you will be ok
1. Nothing is free and things come by hard honest work 2. Peanut butter is only 1.95 at Walmrt

TOD brainwashed my brother, now every time I talk to him or whenever he talks to others in my family all he talks about is "the business" He goes on and on about not having to work in a year and having all these things, all this while he spirals deeper and deeper into debt buying books and tapes and going to seminars. Thank you TOD for ruining relationships with family and friends all across the nation.

The team of destiny is now recognized by the Better Business Bureau and the logo is seen on their website. Not a rip-off. Every one has an opinion, and I agree with researching something fully before jumping in. I personally believe in the system. It has made a fantastic change in my life.

Don't worry about "bursting my bubble," Dave. You didn't. You simply confirmed my position. I would never suggest that everyone should be compelled to delve into an opportunity like TOD. But those who jump to the conclusion that it is a "rip-off" are just succumbing to the herd mentality; what sociologists call The Law of Social Proof. It basically states that the masses prefer moving in herds and will choose to involve themselves in something not so much based on its merits--but more on whether enough of the herd is involved. Your comments reveal that you are firmly ensconced in the herd.

Joy, I appreciate your comments. My commitment to Christianity is actually the reason I did not continue with TOD. You should understand that I do not say this to color anyone else's thinking. It's my opinion. I don't have any problem with working intelligently (rather than long and stupidly) in order to provide well for my family. I just didn't like the way they tried so passionately to attach a form of Christian emotionalism to the business itself. Suffice it to say that I recognize the theme of Jesus' ministry as being "The Kingdom of God"--not "The Kingdom of Financial Freedom." Far from reminding us of the Biblical admonition to beware the trap of materialism, they held out the hope of a life of riches, lavish vacations and expensive cars in one hand--and tried to fuse it with Jesus.

That said, please remember my point: TOD is a perfectly viable business opportunity. Just because I could not abide the above does NOT mean that it was a "rip-off."

Don't worry about "bursting my bubble," Dave. You didn't. You simply confirmed my position. I would never suggest that everyone should be compelled to delve into an opportunity like TOD. But those who jump to the conclusion that it is a "rip-off" are just succumbing to the herd mentality; what sociologists call The Law of Social Proof. It basically states that the masses prefer moving in herds and will choose to involve themselves in something not so much based on its merits--but more on whether enough of the herd is involved. Your comments reveal that you are firmly ensconced in the herd.

Joy, I appreciate your comments. My commitment to Christianity is actually the reason I did not continue with TOD. You should understand that I do not say this to color anyone else's thinking. It's my opinion. I don't have any problem with working intelligently (rather than long and stupidly) in order to provide well for my family. I just didn't like the way they tried so passionately to attach a form of Christian emotionalism to the business itself. Suffice it to say that I recognize the theme of Jesus' ministry as being "The Kingdom of God"--not "The Kingdom of Financial Freedom." Far from reminding us of the Biblical admonition to beware the trap of materialism, they held out the hope of a life of riches, lavish vacations and expensive cars in one hand--and tried to fuse it with Jesus.

That said, please remember my point: TOD is a perfectly viable business opportunity. Just because I could not abide the above does NOT mean that it was a "rip-off."

Don't worry about "bursting my bubble," Dave. You didn't. You simply confirmed my position. I would never suggest that everyone should be compelled to delve into an opportunity like TOD. But those who jump to the conclusion that it is a "rip-off" are just succumbing to the herd mentality; what sociologists call The Law of Social Proof. It basically states that the masses prefer moving in herds and will choose to involve themselves in something not so much based on its merits--but more on whether enough of the herd is involved. Your comments reveal that you are firmly ensconced in the herd.

Joy, I appreciate your comments. My commitment to Christianity is actually the reason I did not continue with TOD. You should understand that I do not say this to color anyone else's thinking. It's my opinion. I don't have any problem with working intelligently (rather than long and stupidly) in order to provide well for my family. I just didn't like the way they tried so passionately to attach a form of Christian emotionalism to the business itself. Suffice it to say that I recognize the theme of Jesus' ministry as being "The Kingdom of God"--not "The Kingdom of Financial Freedom." Far from reminding us of the Biblical admonition to beware the trap of materialism, they held out the hope of a life of riches, lavish vacations and expensive cars in one hand--and tried to fuse it with Jesus.

That said, please remember my point: TOD is a perfectly viable business opportunity. Just because I could not abide the above does NOT mean that it was a "rip-off."

Don't worry about "bursting my bubble," Dave. You didn't. You simply confirmed my position. I would never suggest that everyone should be compelled to delve into an opportunity like TOD. But those who jump to the conclusion that it is a "rip-off" are just succumbing to the herd mentality; what sociologists call The Law of Social Proof. It basically states that the masses prefer moving in herds and will choose to involve themselves in something not so much based on its merits--but more on whether enough of the herd is involved. Your comments reveal that you are firmly ensconced in the herd.

Joy, I appreciate your comments. My commitment to Christianity is actually the reason I did not continue with TOD. You should understand that I do not say this to color anyone else's thinking. It's my opinion. I don't have any problem with working intelligently (rather than long and stupidly) in order to provide well for my family. I just didn't like the way they tried so passionately to attach a form of Christian emotionalism to the business itself. Suffice it to say that I recognize the theme of Jesus' ministry as being "The Kingdom of God"--not "The Kingdom of Financial Freedom." Far from reminding us of the Biblical admonition to beware the trap of materialism, they held out the hope of a life of riches, lavish vacations and expensive cars in one hand--and tried to fuse it with Jesus.

That said, please remember my point: TOD is a perfectly viable business opportunity. Just because I could not abide the above does NOT mean that it was a "rip-off."

I'm confusesd as to why your quit TOD because of it's religious foundation?

They are pretty much a Christianity based business, but then again 85% of Americans are of Christian faith.

Of course theirs nothing wrong if you have an entirely different religious belief, but to quit something because the foundation is of Christian faith, when that's what America was built on?

Either way... the business provides a great opportunity. I will agree that most people don't join and claim it's a rip off because they aren't very well informed.

And for everyone's information ANY AND ALL money spent on TOD is OPTIONAL!!!

paying thousands of dollars for college to earn the right to interview if you can even get a job with this economy.... is OPTIONAL.

You don't have to spend one penny if you don't want to, but you spend money if you would like money in return.

"The greater the Contribution, the greater the reward"

Sorry to burst your bubble Jonathan, but I'm in no way (especially by your standards) unintelligent. I won't argue the 'lazy' jab since I like to sit on my fat butt in front of the computer most days.

The 'too good to be true' adage applies to 99% of the cult crap that is out there today trying to present themseleves as some miracle money making garbage. So I will disagree with you and state that those who use that particular saying are NOT lazy (except in my case ;)) or unintelligent, but rather the opposite and just choose NOT to waste their time and effort in researching some fanatical cult-like business entity that will ONLY prove successful at taking good, hard-working people's money.

You, yourself indicate that you decided NOT to join due to the religious foundation of the business...gee sounds cultish to me.

Again (and for the final time). If TOD is the be all, end all of money making and/or business structures WHY isn't it seen ANYWHERE but on the ripoff report website? According to previous rebuttals, prominent business CEOs are implementing this...WHERE? Can anyone post an article or other newsworthy evidence that TOD is just so super, gosh darn, terrific that everyone should be doing it? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Just a little humor to lighten the mood. I'm not out to make the PEOPLE that work under/for TOD as the bad guys just the business model itself.

And I won't post any more on this topic...a guy can beat his head against the wall only so much (and I wouldn't want Jonathan's stereotypical opinion to come true).

"If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is." Where does this thinking come from? From people who are either too unintelligent or too lazy to find out something for themselves.

A better motto: "If something sounds too good to be true, you'd better examine it carefully before getting involved."

Let me make this clear: I had gotten involved with TOD for quite a few months. I had examined it thoroughly and attended about a dozen events, including a major event in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I decided NOT to continue with it. This has to do with personal reasons regarding the religious foundation of the group--and NOT because "it sounded too good to be true."

Anyone who says these people claim you'll get a whole lot without doing too much is either uninformed or just plain lying. When you hear their stories, it is very clear: they worked incredibly hard. Can you do what they did? Of course you can. Problem is YOU have to work hard too. And I will suggest that most people who are faced with making a choice...

1) Work incredibly hard.
2) Find some fault with it, and claim it's a rip-off.

...will usually end up going with option number 2. Why? It makes them feel better about not following through with the hard work. In their minds, if they can skewer it, then it means they aren't a failure.

Look, no one is offering a pipe dream to you. Listen to them. They've worked hard and consistently. If you commit yourself to it, without harboring reservations, you can do it too. If you don't want to commit yourself to it, fine. Just be honest with yourself and others. Admit it's because you don't want to work that hard for something.

"If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is." Where does this thinking come from? From people who are either too unintelligent or too lazy to find out something for themselves.

A better motto: "If something sounds too good to be true, you'd better examine it carefully before getting involved."

Let me make this clear: I had gotten involved with TOD for quite a few months. I had examined it thoroughly and attended about a dozen events, including a major event in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I decided NOT to continue with it. This has to do with personal reasons regarding the religious foundation of the group--and NOT because "it sounded too good to be true."

Anyone who says these people claim you'll get a whole lot without doing too much is either uninformed or just plain lying. When you hear their stories, it is very clear: they worked incredibly hard. Can you do what they did? Of course you can. Problem is YOU have to work hard too. And I will suggest that most people who are faced with making a choice...

1) Work incredibly hard.
2) Find some fault with it, and claim it's a rip-off.

...will usually end up going with option number 2. Why? It makes them feel better about not following through with the hard work. In their minds, if they can skewer it, then it means they aren't a failure.

Look, no one is offering a pipe dream to you. Listen to them. They've worked hard and consistently. If you commit yourself to it, without harboring reservations, you can do it too. If you don't want to commit yourself to it, fine. Just be honest with yourself and others. Admit it's because you don't want to work that hard for something.

"If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is." Where does this thinking come from? From people who are either too unintelligent or too lazy to find out something for themselves.

A better motto: "If something sounds too good to be true, you'd better examine it carefully before getting involved."

Let me make this clear: I had gotten involved with TOD for quite a few months. I had examined it thoroughly and attended about a dozen events, including a major event in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I decided NOT to continue with it. This has to do with personal reasons regarding the religious foundation of the group--and NOT because "it sounded too good to be true."

Anyone who says these people claim you'll get a whole lot without doing too much is either uninformed or just plain lying. When you hear their stories, it is very clear: they worked incredibly hard. Can you do what they did? Of course you can. Problem is YOU have to work hard too. And I will suggest that most people who are faced with making a choice...

1) Work incredibly hard.
2) Find some fault with it, and claim it's a rip-off.

...will usually end up going with option number 2. Why? It makes them feel better about not following through with the hard work. In their minds, if they can skewer it, then it means they aren't a failure.

Look, no one is offering a pipe dream to you. Listen to them. They've worked hard and consistently. If you commit yourself to it, without harboring reservations, you can do it too. If you don't want to commit yourself to it, fine. Just be honest with yourself and others. Admit it's because you don't want to work that hard for something.

"If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is." Where does this thinking come from? From people who are either too unintelligent or too lazy to find out something for themselves.

A better motto: "If something sounds too good to be true, you'd better examine it carefully before getting involved."

Let me make this clear: I had gotten involved with TOD for quite a few months. I had examined it thoroughly and attended about a dozen events, including a major event in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I decided NOT to continue with it. This has to do with personal reasons regarding the religious foundation of the group--and NOT because "it sounded too good to be true."

Anyone who says these people claim you'll get a whole lot without doing too much is either uninformed or just plain lying. When you hear their stories, it is very clear: they worked incredibly hard. Can you do what they did? Of course you can. Problem is YOU have to work hard too. And I will suggest that most people who are faced with making a choice...

1) Work incredibly hard.
2) Find some fault with it, and claim it's a rip-off.

...will usually end up going with option number 2. Why? It makes them feel better about not following through with the hard work. In their minds, if they can skewer it, then it means they aren't a failure.

Look, no one is offering a pipe dream to you. Listen to them. They've worked hard and consistently. If you commit yourself to it, without harboring reservations, you can do it too. If you don't want to commit yourself to it, fine. Just be honest with yourself and others. Admit it's because you don't want to work that hard for something.

'Too good to be true' defined for me means: Being offered money(or something else material) for nothing.

In respect to TOD your paying boatloads of money and getting nothing! Ha!

Another version: Pay a little bit of money and receive a lot of money in return. This is what TOD claims to offer, yet again I say that the ONLY place anyone hears ANYTHING about this crock of a company is on the RIPOFF REPORT website.

And that's good enough for me...have a nice day.

Lots of my buisness partners including myself have encountered people that have already been shown the business plan by lots of other people.

No one is jumping at you tryin' to sell you stuff, because this business isn't for everyone. It's a choice, and one choice. You don't have to do it. It's a very good way to make money, but that doesn't mean that everyone has the ambition, money, or dedication to do this business.

Most of you that have it in your head that if it sounds to good to be true then it probably is... must own a lot of average things compared to other people.

And I would like a definition of what "too good to be true" means. since a lot of people here are firm believers in the "too good to be true" phrase.

The absolute bottom line for any MLM, cult or other too good to be true scam is:

If it's SO frickin' wonderful why hasn't it taken the world by storm? Why isn't my neighbor, co-worker or bum on the street trying to sell it to me? Why don't we see everyday headlines telling us 25 millionares have been made from TOD? Why don't we see any news AT ALL, but for the cult happy crap that is spewed on this site?

Think about it!

Scott from Michigan said it best and I quote here;

TOD is simply a different business system than Quixtar. The idea is that you build teams. You bring someone new into your team, and then you work closely with them to bring others in. In a pyramid, the money flows to the top, and by the way, most of the money is made from the fees to join.

The idea is to build teams?? Scott said it's just like a pyramid. A pyramid. That's all they are folks, another pyramid scheme, multi-level marketing plan. I'll admit, I got sucked into Amway a few years ago. TOD/Quixtar/Amway/Mary Kay Cosmetics, all of these and many others are nothing but schemes to get your money while providing zero benefits. That so called 'small' fee to join these so called 'companies', well to some these fees are not so small. In all of these they say it's in your best interest to purchase the books and tapes. In fact, you are very highly pressured to purchase them, every week.

What do they do for you? Well, the tapes brainwash you more and more into the group/cult. Ever really read the stories behind these diamonds and emeralds, funny how all the different plans call them the same names isn't it. Well, read them a bit more closely next time and you'll see that the ones that are actually claiming to make the 'big bucks' are people that were well off to begin with. They had plenty of money so they didn't have to worry about not making it 'in the plan'.

As for Amway, I did my thing, I bought the products, I used them, they suck. The paper towels are thinner than a peice of writing paper, it takes 3 rolls of Amway's paper towels to do the job of one roll of Kleenex or Bounty.

Oh well, enough of my tirade, you get the point. They are all cults and they will do whatever they have to do to sucker anyone in and make them believers. Those of you that are doing these plans, well, I wish you luck, if they do work for you, then that's great, more power to you, just don't push that garbage onto the rest of us.

"It" being freedom from the 95% of the populations thinking. Its obvious here to me that the 95% people that are stuck there are really trying to pressure us new 5% thinking people into remaining with their misery. Remember TODers...."Misery Loves Company". I'd rather be company with the people I meet in TOD and leave the rest behind to keep each other company. Keep swinging the sword of freedom TOD !!

I read a response from Matt in Michigan and he stated that he has over 1,00 people in his downline and that he buys all the training material for each of his businesses involved. I would like to ask him for the name of his company. I truly doubt that he is telling the truth.

I don't mean to be harsh but reading some of the negative comments about TOD adds to my understanding why 95% of the United States is living pay check to pay check and will get to the retierment ages either dead , disabled or broke .

I chalenge anyone to go to your local TOD meeting and ask an IBO there to go to the nearest internet cafe' and log onto the Michigan Attorney Generals web site and have them go through that web site item by item and they will show you how we do not qualify as an Illegal pyramid .

people are questioning the importance of the tapes and books . Schools invest in them , Franchises invest in them , corporations invest in them , consumers , on the other hand simply buy them . Consumers buy reading material like National Enquierer , Star Magazine , Vogue , GQ , Maxim . We chose to buy our books from our upline which will teach the information that helped other to succeed in the years past . Yes there is a profit from the tapes and books . Is there someone getting a profit from the latest Country tape/CD . You Bet . Is there a profit from the lates Sci/Fi novel . You Bet . The difference is this , if we do what the informational tapes and books we buy in our business teach us , we will succeed faster . The last point I'll make on this subject is this , If you know how to be financialy independent , Why aren't you . I'm learning how from people who have made the journey already through the Tapes and Books in my business .

To the gentleman who stated " Nothing really new here " I'll simply say this . TOD is not Amway . Even though Amway is a tried and true successful business that now ties into the internet through the shopping portal known as Quixtar , they build extremely slow . I give high praise to those IBO's out there who put in the effort and built using their building system that grows annually at about 15%to 20% . TOD Builds quit differently using the true consept of TEAM which produces an annual growth rate of 650% . So to that 42 year old Networker I suggest you take a secon look at TOD ASAP. Think of it this way , TOD will pass every other Networking venture out there exactly like Wal-Mart(largest corporation) passed K-Mart .

The last two comments are to the two different sceptics from Lansing Michigan . 1st) to the wife who's topic was "I think TOD is a Crock" , I will give you my monitary info . I only do this because I've been in TOD for a month less then you and your husband . This way you may see that this business works . I've been in since March and at the time you wrote your comment my wife and I had been in 5 months and our check was just under $160/month . Right now I'm looking at my check I received today and it is just under $230/month . We could have been at a higher level by now but we had to stop being sceptics in order to open our minds to the new information . 2nd) To the gentleman who is in Networking and who's topic was "Amway guys screw it up for everyone who is truely making it in this form of marketing" . I can't comment on the people who have contacted you and their exagerations in their income . I know that the business owners in the TOD are strictly forbiden not to exagerate their income because then it would seem that we are a "get rich quick scheme" and we aren't . I am proud to list my figures above and that is because the average business owner that logs into the Shopping portal Quixtar only makes $115 . Team of Destiny grows fast and we pride ourselves on integrity . We want everyone to ask questions and we'll answer any you have . This business is working for me . If it's not working for you then maybe you need to spend some time in front of your bathroom mirror .

Much Love to all the TOD IBO's who are responding .

I have made my living solely from MLM for the last 7 years. These Team of Destiny/ Quixtar/ Amway guys screw it up for everyone that is truly making it in this form of marketing.

One of their first approaches is; Do you look at other ways of making money? Being that they have all subscribed to the same way of dressing and condesending attitudes, I spot them a mile a way. So, for fun I do the same to them. By no means do they want to hear it.

Being that they all tell you how much money they are making (at least implying it), I always ask to compair 1099s, I tell them mine has to be 10 times larger then theirs for them to consider mine, visa-versa, 10 times! They then back peddal and tell me that granted they have been involved with Team of Destiny/ Quixtar/ Amway for x number of years, they only recently got going, making some excuse, at that point you catch them in a blatent lie.

I don't even need to get into the books and tapes. If their business was that good, their upline would buy them a a good book or tape, instead of their upline making profit off them. I have over 1,000 reps in my downline in another MLM, I buy allthat kin of stuff for them.

Bottom line is they cannot even tell you the real name of their company (Amway/ Quixtar), do you see a problem with that?

I did not ask for suggestions on how to succeed in life. I do have an education thank you.

However I asked specifically for those anti-TOD etc. people to give suggestions for what CAN give you success BETTER than TOD and either just as FAST, FASTER, or maybe even a smidge slower, and produce the same if not better results, with income that is passive?

-IBO

Folks, this is not rocket science. I am a member of TOD, and did so after about 3 months of research, and discussing it with my wife. I was an economics major in college, and digging through the numbers and seeing exactly how it works, i.e. how I make money was very important to me. The small fee to join was clearly explained to me, and in fact, a majority of the fee goes towards products. Basically, kind of showing you how it works, and ensuring that you will get a nominal check that first month.

Now, it is not a scam, and it is not a pyramid. It is a buying group that gets 'kickbacks' from the businesses that participate. For example, Office Max is a partner, and saves approximately 60% when someone purchases online versus in one of their stores...get it, no bricks and mortar, no sales associates, etc. So, Office Max says that I would love to give a discount to people that are committed to buying from me online, and shoots Quixtar (the shopping portal of TOD) 20% or some such figure. Now, the choice is either to make this a discount buying club, or offer the people compensation for performance. They take this 20% and dole it out to the people in the group that build teams of people that also consistently purchase from the online partners. You can get over a million products from the partners, and from Quixtar, and the products are the same/better/worse/different than what you find in stores. (something like 93% of the fortune 500 companies participate) Do we buy all our stuff through them? No. But, if I can make money buying my household cleaners, etc. from there, then why not do it? If I can make money buying my office supplies from Office Max online, then why not? And, if I can do my Christmas shopping online and avoid the mall, why not?? You are just buying the stuff you already buy, except from a different place. Are the prices competitive? Yes. It varies, some of the stuff is more expensive, some of it is cheaper. Do your own homework, and don't buy a 40 lb. bag of dog food with $40 of shipping costs. Studies have been done, and from my own studies, overall, there is a small percentage difference either way between the products online (including shipping) and going to your local store. Just depends on how smart you are.

Yes, I am completely aware that the tapes we purchase provide income for somebody. As a matter of fact this is in the open. Money that is made from the tapes, books, and meetings is distributed to the best performers in the group. So what?? If they help me succeed, then I don't care. We are not making a bunch of money at this early stage, but the person who got me involved was clear about this. They told us to expect the typical $6 check for the first 6 months to a year, depending on how you do. They are making $3,000 to $5,000 per month after doing it for 16 months. BUT, they work very hard.

I think the bigger problem is that people get irritated when it doesn't work for them. Not everyone will succeed at this, but you should understand what you are getting into, before you get into it. You will succeed if you work hard, and if you can explain it to people very clearly, without trying to trick them into joining. If you give up on it, you will fail, and then you will tell someone else that it is a fraud, thus fueling the bad PR. Did it fail, or did you??

As I mentioned, I am a member, and I still struggle with the image of the company, and the way people look at me when I describe it to them. BUT, I have yet to hear anything negative after I sit down with someone and explain the nuts and bolts. I have very skeptical, and educated friends that have said, "What the heck have you got yourself into?" I tell them give me an hour, and try to punch holes in the system. Ask anything you want, and if I can't answer it, you are right. But, I had already asked these questions in my research. After this discussion, I have heard, "It's not for me.", but I haven't heard "This is a scam." The money makes sense, and is easy to explain, as I have done above. But, are you the type that can promote it successfully, and work with it, for what it really is.

This is a buying group that rewards loyal consumers for buying from their partners, along with a system to keep you motivated. They don't hide this. The seminars are a big pep talk, along with some solid information for people that are new. The books are a big pep talk with some solid information for people that are new. The tapes are a big pep talk with some solid information for people that are new. Get the trend?? I was in sales in a very difficult industry (Manufacturers Representative, in the automotive industry) for 6 years. When I would make my calls on a Tuesday morning, if the first call was very negative, I wanted to hit the golf course. If it was positive, I would make many more, and have a successful day. I would have died for a tape that told me to get going, that I could do it, and anything else that would motivate me.

One last note, TOD is affiliated with Quixtar. Quixtar is the shopping portal. TOD is simply a different business system than Quixtar. The idea is that you build teams. You bring someone new into your team, and then you work closely with them to bring others in. The more depth you create, the more success you have. The members you bring in simply purchase items from the online partners. They purchase items that they already purchase. They just change the way they buy them. The more people you personally add to the community, the larger portion of the pie you receive. Not rocket science people. And, you can make more money than the person that brought you in. In a pyramid, the money flows to the top, and by the way, most of the money is made from the fees to join. This is not the case in TOD. In TOD, people you bring in can make way more money than you are, if they work harder. The friends that brought us in brought another friend in, and he worked his tail off. He is making more money than they are, and in less time. The money doesn't necessarily flow upward...it flows to the strongest performers.

So, understand it, do your own research, and get in it for the right reasons, or decide not to join, again, for the right reasons. Not everyone can do this, but if you fail, take a good look at why, and don't bash the system for your failures.

Thanks, and I hope this helps people understand TOD better.

Unfortunately you have not researched other Quixtar groups? They run similar to TOD. TOD is just quixtar. Now as to not having to sell stuff - well your upline has misinformed you or your upline has decided to completely ignore the new rules. Yes, you have to sell either a certain amount of stuff that comes to a certain $$ value or point value. If you do not your check goes to your upline. Its up to your upline whether or not it gets passed on to you - which they really are not suppose to do. My upline decided that it would not because of the "pyramid scheme" investigation that had happened and the fact that it did not take much effort to buy things for yourself and say you sold them. That really got to me and made me realize how unethical this is.

No, I am no longer in college - graduated. And you know what? Real business does not expect you to pay for tapes and books. Have you gotten high enough to know who makes $$ on these tapes and why you can't be successful without these? You upline makes money for every person on the system below them. In fact a LARGE chunk of your diamond's income is due to the money that comes in off of the system. They have purposely created the system so that you can not move up without it. In fact, it doesn't matter if you listen to the tapes or not - as long as you are part of the system and get your downlines on the system, then you will do well.

Suggestions of other things that allow you to suceed? there are many out there, and a lot of them don't require the amount of investment TOD does. This was not a place to provide suggestions of that sort so that is why no one provided them. It is just to report if a company is a bad business or not.

TOD is not Amway/Quixtar with a twist! I just got back from one of the most awesome major functions and I cannot believe how much I have learned and have already applied to certain areas of my life.

YES they will say if u do NOT get on system that u will fail. BUT it doesn't mean that u will fail completely! It just means u will never reach Diamond and such. They are telling u what they know works. Even Diamonds and Emeralds are still on system. One of the Diamonds reads 15 books a month!

You are a college student right? So am I! If you didn't buy the books that you were told to buy even though they are optional AND VERY expensive ($113 for my Japanese book) THEN you would FAIL the CLASS!

It logically makes sense that they are not trying to tip people off. We have a Pastor on the team as well. I'm sorry if you gave up on yourself and your team. I highly think the Diamonds would feel EXTREMELY bad for building up so much confidence in people and then letting us ALL down.

Team of Destiny is not Quixtar/Amway with a twist we are the BUYERS from the site. We do NOT have to sell any products if we do NOT choose to do so. It is ONLY a SUGGESTION.

ALL of you people that have said something negative about TOD haven't said ONE BETTER thing or gave anyone else hope or encouragement as to where we can go in life or what can give you better results than TOD in that amount of time frame and work.

So I challenge you anti-TOD people to find something that can give you the results that are PROVEN within the amount of time they say something can be done (2-5 yrs) And see if you can inspire people to go that way as well?

-Team xx IBO
Joy

All Team of Destiny is is a branch of Quixtar that has decided to call themselves "TOD" to create the impression they can make your dreams come true. I am still an IBO of TOD, but only until my membership runs out at the end of this year. After sinking more money and time than I like to admit into this and getting no where, I finally gave up. When I first joined I was told that you don't have to sell anything, just buy what you need for yourself and recruit others that you want to give the chance to become successful (and they put ALOT of emphasis on how sucessful you can be within 3 years). Well about 2 months of being a member I was then told that no, you have to sell a certain amount of products now. Why? Because they had been investigate and had to sell the products or else be deemed a pyramid scheme. So the requirement of outside sales had been initiated to avoid fines and a bad reputation. Hmmmm....

As for buying stuff for yourself, their products are costly and not much better than what you can buy cheaper at the local store. As a college student I couldn't afford to buy all of my stuff from them and make little to no profit back.

As for the tapes and all of that - yes that is voluntary, HOWEVER I was told flat out over and over that if I did not buy them I would fail - plain and simple. They are the only way to your success.

Can you make money with TOD? Yes, I know of several people personally who have. HOWEVER, with the price of their products being so costly and 98% of their focus being on recruiting other members (2% on selling just so that they can stay legal - and many times it is still them buying for themselves and just claiming it is going to someone else - I was told by my upline to do this when I couldn't find anyone else to buy!) I can not stay with this company and still feel ethical. You have to use sly tactics to get people involved - the script they give you to recruit says straight out that you are not suppose to supply any details to the person when you are trying to get them to a meeting. Maybe that is why I failed? I'm too honest?

Listen people, I have been involved with TOD for 2 months now. Yes I am doing pretty well. I will admit my 1st check was 30 bucks, but that's more than a dime quoted by other reports. My check just yesterday was 60 bucks. Notice the increase?

The point you people are not logically getting is that YES it does cost money for materials, meetings etc, but so does college, and the nice gov. likes to take your taxes and put it towards school anyways. Why not take youre own expenses and actually put them towards what you want to learn, and actually will know the end result.

No teacher makes it a point to tell you how their lifestyle is if your in the field of Education. So you are naive as to whether it's a lifestyle you'll want to live, and you're only seeing a part of that teachers life and not the whole.

Besides if you want to learn how to be a docotor you're not going to ask a lawyer how to do surgery? So why are you going to school to learn how to be something that isn't going to get you the results in life that you want? I want to be an artist when I'm done with college, but you know I'm not going to make a lot of money that way, so yes this business works.

As stated before ALL purchases of business materials are OPTIONAL. Correct information means nothing unless you can apply what your learning. And yeah with that computer your typing on. DO YOU REALLY THINK it costs 1,000+ dollars to build!!!! NO!!! You're paying for Information NOT Industry!

Point made. If you want all the details you can easily obtain them with an open mind. We have nothing to hide, and I personal am working with a Power Player and a double Power Player, who are doing very well!

Well, I'd type more good things but I actually am off to attend a meeting right now!

-IBO Joy Jensen

Go IWIAATS!

I Hope that all of you team members obtain all of your dreams and goals that you set out and were meant to find!

P.S. the cost to join is actually $227. and some odd cents so yeah it's like WAY cheaper now. but you know those who wants to spends thousands on college tuition and books for classes obataining a degree they won't use anyway, may continue to do so! You'll get that one later!

I originally thought this TOD thing was great, but know that my husband and I have been doing it for about 6 months and have not made a dime but spent a ton of money I have truly changed my whole out look on things. The so called "team" we belong are a bunch of LAZY people who have no goals in life. When we joined we were told that we would be making an extra 3-5oo dollars month by now, guess what our last check was for $3.00.
Something just isn't right.

I personally think this is almost cult like. I am very embarrassed to say that in April I posted another one of these defending this crap. Maybe if the other people in the so called "team" I am in worked as hard as my husband did when we first joined things would be different.

My husband still thinks that we are going to become wealthy doing this but I don't believe that we will.

To anyone else thinking of doing this DO NOT, save yourself a couple hundred dollars.

I do not uderstand how people can call this a pyramid scheme.....If the TOD isn't a legit business then why has it not been shut down and why have the founders of the TOD not been encrypted in the newspapers as "scam artists?"
That's becasue they aren't!

What many of the skeptics don't realize is that many people who join TOD are already established business owners and established people in the work force. They join TOD because they know and have come to understand that it is not a rip-off.

Pizza franchise owners, Ford engineers, doctors, lawyers etc. have all joined up in the business. The TOD works with the top businesses in America and top business people as well. I have attended several meetings and am often one of the least educated people in the room, though I have a masters degree and graduated with honors from my college. I also have one of the smallest pocket books as well, due to my job as a state employee. People who realize TOD as a great oppurtunity are the same people who realize great business oppurtunities - which, and let's face it, not all can do. Thus, TOD isn't for everyone, and if one wants to make a job of bashing TOD, go ahead - TOD's success will speak for itself. I just recommend that you find somthing else to do with your time, you'll be way more productive.

Also, the TOD website is not set up for nonmembers. It contains information on seminars, Tuesday open meetings, an other material that only pertains to business members. I don't know what you expected to find on the site, but I am sure if you presonnaly asked a member of TOD they would have no problem giving you their password to access the site. Oh yeah, the website is prouced and helpped maintained by IBM, another legit company.

I recently got invited to a TOD meeting. I did not know that it was just another MLM scam. I will probably get a rebuttal that TOD is not an MLM - they have been brainwashed into thinking that TOD is somehow different.

I am negative toward multi-level marketing (network marketing, pyramid schemes, and other various and a sundry names). It smacks of high-pressure sales by encouraging people to sign up their friends, family, and anyone they come in contact with in hopes of making them rich. They appeal to one of man's basic drive - greed and materialism - to get them to be consumers of their product. (Their introductory brochure has pictures of a Ferrari and a big sail boat on it - this should tell you something)

Those at the top make the millions while new subscribers are coming in by the hour through the lure of making money off this pyramid scheme. They off course are encouraged to purchase/use the product themselves so they can be better informed and better prepared to "sell" the product. This creates revenue for the head schemers. Most of the people who purchase the product will never get rich off of the pyramid scheme, but they would have contributed to the increasing revenue of those at the top of the pyramid. MLM stats show that most of the product purchases are made from fellow members NOT to the outside public. The whole system (TOD included) is based on getting members to buy all of their products through their marketing scheme. Their decision to purchase the products is being influenced by the promise/lure of making money off of this system/program (playing on their greed). This is deceptive to me.

Just look at the rebuttals - feeble attempts to defend their MLM - their religion - their hope for their future. For instance, more than one mentions Disney's endorsement as to lend credibility to TOD. This is very sad - Disney like any other vendor is just a portal seeking avenues to sell its wares.

Anyway, this is my 2 cents worth...

Caveat Emptor (Let the Buyer Beware)

I recently got invited to a TOD meeting. I did not know that it was just another MLM scam. I will probably get a rebuttal that TOD is not an MLM - they have been brainwashed into thinking that TOD is somehow different.

I am negative toward multi-level marketing (network marketing, pyramid schemes, and other various and a sundry names). It smacks of high-pressure sales by encouraging people to sign up their friends, family, and anyone they come in contact with in hopes of making them rich. They appeal to one of man's basic drive - greed and materialism - to get them to be consumers of their product. (Their introductory brochure has pictures of a Ferrari and a big sail boat on it - this should tell you something)

Those at the top make the millions while new subscribers are coming in by the hour through the lure of making money off this pyramid scheme. They off course are encouraged to purchase/use the product themselves so they can be better informed and better prepared to "sell" the product. This creates revenue for the head schemers. Most of the people who purchase the product will never get rich off of the pyramid scheme, but they would have contributed to the increasing revenue of those at the top of the pyramid. MLM stats show that most of the product purchases are made from fellow members NOT to the outside public. The whole system (TOD included) is based on getting members to buy all of their products through their marketing scheme. Their decision to purchase the products is being influenced by the promise/lure of making money off of this system/program (playing on their greed). This is deceptive to me.

Just look at the rebuttals - feeble attempts to defend their MLM - their religion - their hope for their future. For instance, more than one mentions Disney's endorsement as to lend credibility to TOD. This is very sad - Disney like any other vendor is just a portal seeking avenues to sell its wares.

Anyway, this is my 2 cents worth...

Caveat Emptor (Let the Buyer Beware)

I recently got invited to a TOD meeting. I did not know that it was just another MLM scam. I will probably get a rebuttal that TOD is not an MLM - they have been brainwashed into thinking that TOD is somehow different.

I am negative toward multi-level marketing (network marketing, pyramid schemes, and other various and a sundry names). It smacks of high-pressure sales by encouraging people to sign up their friends, family, and anyone they come in contact with in hopes of making them rich. They appeal to one of man's basic drive - greed and materialism - to get them to be consumers of their product. (Their introductory brochure has pictures of a Ferrari and a big sail boat on it - this should tell you something)

Those at the top make the millions while new subscribers are coming in by the hour through the lure of making money off this pyramid scheme. They off course are encouraged to purchase/use the product themselves so they can be better informed and better prepared to "sell" the product. This creates revenue for the head schemers. Most of the people who purchase the product will never get rich off of the pyramid scheme, but they would have contributed to the increasing revenue of those at the top of the pyramid. MLM stats show that most of the product purchases are made from fellow members NOT to the outside public. The whole system (TOD included) is based on getting members to buy all of their products through their marketing scheme. Their decision to purchase the products is being influenced by the promise/lure of making money off of this system/program (playing on their greed). This is deceptive to me.

Just look at the rebuttals - feeble attempts to defend their MLM - their religion - their hope for their future. For instance, more than one mentions Disney's endorsement as to lend credibility to TOD. This is very sad - Disney like any other vendor is just a portal seeking avenues to sell its wares.

Anyway, this is my 2 cents worth...

Caveat Emptor (Let the Buyer Beware)

I recently got invited to a TOD meeting. I did not know that it was just another MLM scam. I will probably get a rebuttal that TOD is not an MLM - they have been brainwashed into thinking that TOD is somehow different.

I am negative toward multi-level marketing (network marketing, pyramid schemes, and other various and a sundry names). It smacks of high-pressure sales by encouraging people to sign up their friends, family, and anyone they come in contact with in hopes of making them rich. They appeal to one of man's basic drive - greed and materialism - to get them to be consumers of their product. (Their introductory brochure has pictures of a Ferrari and a big sail boat on it - this should tell you something)

Those at the top make the millions while new subscribers are coming in by the hour through the lure of making money off this pyramid scheme. They off course are encouraged to purchase/use the product themselves so they can be better informed and better prepared to "sell" the product. This creates revenue for the head schemers. Most of the people who purchase the product will never get rich off of the pyramid scheme, but they would have contributed to the increasing revenue of those at the top of the pyramid. MLM stats show that most of the product purchases are made from fellow members NOT to the outside public. The whole system (TOD included) is based on getting members to buy all of their products through their marketing scheme. Their decision to purchase the products is being influenced by the promise/lure of making money off of this system/program (playing on their greed). This is deceptive to me.

Just look at the rebuttals - feeble attempts to defend their MLM - their religion - their hope for their future. For instance, more than one mentions Disney's endorsement as to lend credibility to TOD. This is very sad - Disney like any other vendor is just a portal seeking avenues to sell its wares.

Anyway, this is my 2 cents worth...

Caveat Emptor (Let the Buyer Beware)

Team of Destiny is a line of sponsorship for Quixtar which is the "new" name for Amway. The TODers probably don't mention that you're simply signing up with the old Amway plan that the world came to know and despise. that's why they changed the name of Amway -- it sent people running. There are plenty of statistics on how much people really make at this "business" and almost all of the real money is made by those peddling the "tools" TOD is very, very close to a cult. Listen to the tapes and you'll see what I'm talking about. This group targets those with minimal education and a narrow view of the world. In fact, some of their biggest supporters are Amish folks. People who are easily manipulated and swayed. It's pathetic really.

You won't read anything about TOD in the Wall Street Journal and you certainly won't find a TOD member as their editor. Why? Because those people know the difference between a legitimate business and a pyramid scheme.

Team of Destiny is a line of sponsorship for Quixtar which is the "new" name for Amway. The TODers probably don't mention that you're simply signing up with the old Amway plan that the world came to know and despise. that's why they changed the name of Amway -- it sent people running. There are plenty of statistics on how much people really make at this "business" and almost all of the real money is made by those peddling the "tools" TOD is very, very close to a cult. Listen to the tapes and you'll see what I'm talking about. This group targets those with minimal education and a narrow view of the world. In fact, some of their biggest supporters are Amish folks. People who are easily manipulated and swayed. It's pathetic really.

You won't read anything about TOD in the Wall Street Journal and you certainly won't find a TOD member as their editor. Why? Because those people know the difference between a legitimate business and a pyramid scheme.

Team of Destiny is a line of sponsorship for Quixtar which is the "new" name for Amway. The TODers probably don't mention that you're simply signing up with the old Amway plan that the world came to know and despise. that's why they changed the name of Amway -- it sent people running. There are plenty of statistics on how much people really make at this "business" and almost all of the real money is made by those peddling the "tools" TOD is very, very close to a cult. Listen to the tapes and you'll see what I'm talking about. This group targets those with minimal education and a narrow view of the world. In fact, some of their biggest supporters are Amish folks. People who are easily manipulated and swayed. It's pathetic really.

You won't read anything about TOD in the Wall Street Journal and you certainly won't find a TOD member as their editor. Why? Because those people know the difference between a legitimate business and a pyramid scheme.

Team of Destiny is a line of sponsorship for Quixtar which is the "new" name for Amway. The TODers probably don't mention that you're simply signing up with the old Amway plan that the world came to know and despise. that's why they changed the name of Amway -- it sent people running. There are plenty of statistics on how much people really make at this "business" and almost all of the real money is made by those peddling the "tools" TOD is very, very close to a cult. Listen to the tapes and you'll see what I'm talking about. This group targets those with minimal education and a narrow view of the world. In fact, some of their biggest supporters are Amish folks. People who are easily manipulated and swayed. It's pathetic really.

You won't read anything about TOD in the Wall Street Journal and you certainly won't find a TOD member as their editor. Why? Because those people know the difference between a legitimate business and a pyramid scheme.

A friend asked me "Do you want to make money?" Well, of course, but, my first thought was what type of scheme did they get themselves into.

And, when I began questioning them about this company, the answers were very vague. Naturally I thought, "What are you afraid to tell me; or, is it because you are not allowed to talk about it unless I pay for it?"

So, my friend happened to mention the company name and, for simple curiousity sake, I searched the internet for the name. I did get a link to the company (www.teamofdestiny.com). However, when I click on the "guest" link the only thing that comes up is a password log-in screen. My question is why do I need a password as a "guest?" If the company did not have anything to HIDE, then information, should be freely available. After viewing the information I may make a decision to join or not, but, now, I certainly will not even go to a meeting because I do feel like there is something to hide.

Could it be that the only person making money is the company?

I do believe that one can be successful in TOD. I also believe that many parts are very skewed in TOD's process to "financial freedom." I have attended many of the meetings and I have also attended their big conference every month.

In TOD there is a position that is called," Power Player." In this program you have to buy the book and tape of the week and some other added costs.

This part of the program insures that you will quickly move up the ladder faster then the regular IBO. I attended these meetings and such with another individual that was thinking about starting with me.

I questioned an a "mentor" already in the program and asked him if my friend and I could just split the costs and share the books and tapes so it would be cheaper. With no hesistation he rebuttled a rejection and said it is a must. This really bothered me because here you were sharing information and the whole point of being a "Power Player," is obtaining more information than the others. The whole thing about it is your pumping more and more money into the system and the more you pump in the more more you get out.

I also asked him, "What if you joined up and you didn't do anything." He asid you would get no money and it would be a waste. The thing he kept pressing was the idea of a chain and stressing depth, not a pyramid scheme.

The thing i didn't understand is when you get to be "financially free," and you stop recruiting and stop buying, do you not recieve a check anymore? I dunno it all sounded kinda hokey to me but if it works for some people and your making lots of money out of it, more power to ya!

I just heard a little about this TOD from an old friend of mine who has joined. I've read all the previous comments. I neither condemn nor commend anyone for their position on this company.

I have followed (and often been a part of) several MLM companies since 1961 (yes, it was Amway back then!) so I figure I've learned a few things in 42 years!

There is nothing new that I need to learn about this or any other MLM company. The money to be made in any opportunity is NOT made on sponsoring (unless the company is illegally structured). The money to be made is based upon the sale of products, by whatever means that is done. That means that I will avoid any cost-containing event associated with this (or any ) company (beyond a reasonable 'room fee'... hey, I try to be a nice guy).

Just give me the business plan and avoid all the hype... because DOING THE BUSINESS is the only path to success!

I get a kick out of people who say things like, "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is." And yet it's a simple law of human psychology.

The Law of Social Proof states, basically, that most people have a "herd mentality." That is to say, many people think that something is right--only by virtue of whether most people THINK or FEEL it's right. Thinking for themselves is a bit too much effort for them. And that's fine, we can't all spend all of our days examining every conceivable item brought to our attention, can we?

But it's hoped that, upon taking the time to consider something like the Team of Destiny, a rational person will be able to make up his own mind--instead of being influenced by the uninformed herd.

Like I said, this is basically a store. Like any other store anyone has ever started. You just buy stuff online. Yes, Disney stuff, Levi's stuff, Haggar stuff... Look it's endless. Instead of all the expenses of a traditional brick and mortar establishment, this store uses network marketing. This store allows all of those involved in "networking" an opportunity to receive some of the profits. If the term "network marketing" scares you, please understand this is just that "herd mentality" kicking in.

The only problems with the former "network marketing" organizations is the products and the selling policies. For instance, although the products may have been pretty good, you had to sort of talk people into believing in them as a sort of "nutritional religion." Well, TOD has removed that, haven't they? The brands they sell are the brands we already buy, for Pete's sake! Furthermore, the former hardselling tactics have been rejected. This thing is taking off so powerfully, you don't need to do much convincing to demonstrate how viable it is.

It's just a store, folks.

Anon, I truly understand your scepticism concerning the Team of Destiny. There are many things similar to TOD out there, and most of them are illegal, pyramids, or both. This is unfortunate, but unavoidable. All the TOD can do is prove itself with time and continuing results.

As for the legality of TOD, the Federal Trade Commission uses our business model as its standard when verifying the validity of new companies. In addition, as mentioned previously, Disney is one of our affiliate companies. I believe that point speaks for itself. Also, an individual by the name of Larry VanBuskirk, a former consultant, analyzed the business models of companies for twenty years. He joined the TOD because he said he had seen nothing even close to better in those years of pouring over business systems. By the way, he is now retired from consulting, having more (way more) than replaced that income with his earnings from TOD.

It literally cannot be questioned as to whether or not TOD works. We are beyond the point of being on trial. The only logical question a person can raise is, "Will it work for me?" And if a person comes to at least four of the weekly meetings, they will begin to understand that it can work for anyone. Period.

Anon, I hope you got enough from the meeting you mentioned to make an informed decision. If you decide not to join, that is fine. We want everyone, but we certainly don't need everyone. Unlike a pyramid, our teams do not falter when individuals quit. That is a large part of why we grow so quickly. But if you take this route, I sincerely hope that you do not end up in the 98% of employees and self-employed individuals who are dead, disabled, or broke by the time they reach retirement.

However, if you do decide to join the TOD, to achieve they lifestyle you may have been dreaming of, we will see you on the beaches of the world.

I unfortunately sat through an initial TOD presentation that a relative dragged me into. At the end of the day this borders on being a pyramid scheme and at best it is an on-line version of Amway. For all you people who have been brained washed into thinking this is a wonderful MLM (multi-layered marketing) company, you should check out an article prepared by the Michigan Attorney General's Office on pyramid schemes (go to www.michigan.gov)and look under consumer alerts. The TOD guy I met with made plenty of comments that the article points out are major red flags, including stating that the Attorney General's office had approved their business plan. The article points out that this is a major red flag and that they should be called immediately. Since I did not invest and was not hurt I didn't bother alerting them.

At the end of the day you have to ask your self what value are you adding with this program. What products to you sell? You do not sell anything but membership to a buying group. Income is predicated on growing your network and not selling product and providing anything value added. At least with Amway, you sell products for which you actually take posession and your income is not predicated on just signing up other individuals, although they do receive a cut if they do.

Speaking of Amway, did you know that most if not all of the product distribution is handled by an Amway affiliated distribution company.

TOD is not a scam. I have just begun with TOD and I believe it is the best thing that has happened to me. First of all, does this man who is downing the busines, have financial freedom?Everyone listen!! Take advice from someone with fruit on the tree. All our lives we listen to people on how to make money and how to achieve our dreams. But how many of those people are truley living debt free and enjoying life.

TOD is like no other business I have ever seen. Anybody who reads this should at the least, go to an open meeting (with an open mind) and find out for themselves.

For the person who suggests we see what the Wall Street Journal may have to say about Team of Destiny, I say careful what you ask for, the Editor there may be a Team of Destiny member as well.

People involved with The Team of Destiny are SO very positive that I choose no other to hang around with. I do wish everyone could understand what this group stands for. If someone is willing to meet me half way my plan would be to help hime/her understand what TOD stands for

The WSJ is not involved with reporting what a group of people may be encouraging others to do. I have been a TOD member for 10 weeks now. The rewards here are better than my stock tips from WSJ in the past 3 years I have ever seen. Regardless, the WSJ only reports on yesterday, TOD is helping you to build a future for tomorrow.

Good luck with your fact findings.

I too believe that things that sound too good, probably aren't true. That is not to say that TOD is not legit. I am not a member, I am still in the fact finding stage. My question for the members is, what are the leading money magazines/journals saying about joining TOD? If the power to make money is as great as the recruiting IBO says, why don't we hear more about TOD in the investment trades? I am sure you will agree that the Wall Street Journal loves to build up and break down opportunities. And if this is a fail safe program that offers little risk and high returns in just 3-5 short years, why don't we see more reporting on TOD?

When something is truly good, you can't hold back the information. People will find out, repeated tests will be performed and the same conclusion will be had each time.

So, if this comment makes it to the Rip-Off Report, respond back with both cheers and jeers. Because no program is flawless.

I am an IBO of the Team of Destiny, The education they give you is great, If this is such a rip off, i don't think the pastor at my church would drag his members into this, or my best childhood friend, Also one of my uplines happens to has his own law firm why would he be doing the Team of Destiny if that was the case? The TOD has helped my husband and i in so many ways. TOD is great, and they've reduced their prices again, Every business has costs, so what these costs happen to be tax deductable so how can you loose? If you aren't affliated with this to see, then why even downgrade it? You gotta give it a chance to see the big picture.

The writer's opinion of the Team Of Destiny is just that, his opinion. It is almost like reading the writing on a wall of a gas station bathroom. The information is written, it is up to the indivdiual reader to choose to believe what they read. I know for a fact attending meetings, which are on a Tuesday night costs an IBO five dollars is not required. The seminars, which are monthly costs $25.00 dollars are optional as well. The books and tapes are training materials are again optional for purchase. It is the information that is obtained that is valuable.

Outside of the TOD, I work in the Gaming industry in management. Any training or seminars I have attended relating to the Gaming industry costed a whole lot more than $25.00. Global Gaming Expo costs about $700.00 to attend and that does not include travel costs. The last book I bought related to the gaming industry was $150.00.

And what about the costs of college, I paid $4850.95 for eigth semester hours, which is only 2 hours over being classed as a part-time student. Books for two courses at Millsaps college costed $250.00, purchased used. So again this my opinion and it left to reader to decide what to believe. As for me and my family, we believe in the TOD!
Respectfully submitted,

There are a lot of people that are now financially free from being in the business. And the numbers continue to grow. Yes, the tapes cost $6.00 a piece. But it's not the tape you're paying for, it's the information on that tape. It all involves education given to you, by people that ARE making it in this business. It's great positive information. You can't tell me going out and buying a music CD or tape provides positive information that will make you financially free. The same goes for the meetings and seminars. It's all great information! Just listen to what the woman has to say. It may change your life. The worst that could happen, is that you discover it's not for you.

The gentlemen who initiated this "rip-off" report stated in his own comments that he did not join the Team of Destiny. Having seen a single presentation he makes critical judgements of the Team of Destiny and feels compelled to bash this opportunity.

When I first saw this business, I was a bit skeptical too. After having been involved for 2 1/2 years, my family has experienced the financial success completely in line with what the Team of Destiny promised.

This financial success is Great, however in my opinion its only part of the story. The mentoring and training program has helped me improve my attitude, my people skills, my leadership skills as well as my relationships at home and at work. It has led to the best friendships I have ever had. It has given me access to tremendous leaders and positive people. I thank God everyday for the blessings received through my association with this Team. It truly is a "Team of Destiny"

The information posted in the original comment is inaccurate. The follow up post correctly identified the costs of OPTIONAL TRAINING. Weekly Tuesday meetings cost $5 each to cover the cost of renting the room. However, anyone can attend one meeting for FREE- so it is a great way for anyone to check out the business at no cost. There are monthly seminars which cost $25. Again the cost is primarily to cover the cost of the space. Finally, Books and Tapes are recommended. The books are sold at the list price and tapes are $6 each.

ALL of the training material is optional, unlike some business franchises where training is required to start. Have you checked out the cost of opening a McDonald's or Subway?

Every Successful Business has start up costs. I'm very thankful that the leadership of the Team of Destiny has provided such a low cost training system. It's working for me!!!

The information posted in the original comment is inaccurate. The follow up post correctly identified the costs of OPTIONAL TRAINING. Weekly Tuesday meetings cost $5 each to cover the cost of renting the room. However, anyone can attend one meeting for FREE- so it is a great way for anyone to check out the business at no cost. There are monthly seminars which cost $25. Again the cost is primarily to cover the cost of the space. Finally, Books and Tapes are recommended. The books are sold at the list price and tapes are $6 each.

ALL of the training material is optional, unlike some business franchises where training is required to start. Have you checked out the cost of opening a McDonald's or Subway?

Every Successful Business has start up costs. I'm very thankful that the leadership of the Team of Destiny has provided such a low cost training system. It's working for me!!!

The information posted in the original comment is inaccurate. The follow up post correctly identified the costs of OPTIONAL TRAINING. Weekly Tuesday meetings cost $5 each to cover the cost of renting the room. However, anyone can attend one meeting for FREE- so it is a great way for anyone to check out the business at no cost. There are monthly seminars which cost $25. Again the cost is primarily to cover the cost of the space. Finally, Books and Tapes are recommended. The books are sold at the list price and tapes are $6 each.

ALL of the training material is optional, unlike some business franchises where training is required to start. Have you checked out the cost of opening a McDonald's or Subway?

Every Successful Business has start up costs. I'm very thankful that the leadership of the Team of Destiny has provided such a low cost training system. It's working for me!!!

The information posted in the original comment is inaccurate. The follow up post correctly identified the costs of OPTIONAL TRAINING. Weekly Tuesday meetings cost $5 each to cover the cost of renting the room. However, anyone can attend one meeting for FREE- so it is a great way for anyone to check out the business at no cost. There are monthly seminars which cost $25. Again the cost is primarily to cover the cost of the space. Finally, Books and Tapes are recommended. The books are sold at the list price and tapes are $6 each.

ALL of the training material is optional, unlike some business franchises where training is required to start. Have you checked out the cost of opening a McDonald's or Subway?

Every Successful Business has start up costs. I'm very thankful that the leadership of the Team of Destiny has provided such a low cost training system. It's working for me!!!

I would like to make some corrections about Team of Destiny. It only cost $277.77 to become an Idependent Business Owner, yes there are 5-6 meetings a month(which are all optional. Four of the meetings are held every Tuesday night at various locations and are only $5 and that goes to pay for the room. The fifth meeting in a seminar that yes cost $25.00. The books and tapes that you speak are all also optional to purchase. This is very clearly stated in all paperwork you fill out when you become and IBO.

If Team Of Destiny is such a rip-off some one may want to inform the people at Disney they might have lawyers that might want to look into this sine they are one of the partner stores involved with Team of Desiny.