• Report: #1001436

Complaint Review: Vom Fieldcrest Shepherds

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  • Submitted: Tue, January 22, 2013
  • Updated: Thu, March 07, 2013

  • Reported By: Robert — Bay Center Washington USA
Vom Fieldcrest Shepherds
Wichita, Kansas United States of America

Vom Fieldcrest Shepherds Tom Brown Dangerous Protection Dog Wichita, Kansas

*General Comment: Lack of a life!

*Author of original report: Rebutal to Kellyhvk1-augusta

*Consumer Comment: Questions & comments to author

*Author of original report: Surrebuttal to GSDLover

*Consumer Comment: Protection dogs

*Author of original report: Further Rebuttal to GSDLover

*Consumer Comment: Protection Dogs

*Author of original report: Further Rebuttal to Lies About Tom Brown

*Author of original report: Rebuttal to Lies Against Tom Brown

*Consumer Comment: Lies Against Tom Brown

*Consumer Comment: Lies Against Tom Brown

*Author of original report: Rebuttal to I See Clearly Now

*Consumer Comment: I See You Clearly Now

*Author of original report: Rebuttal to Our Vom Fieldcrest Shepherd - Dr. C

*Author of original report: Rebuttal to Lenn Heafey

*Consumer Comment: Our Vom Fieldcrest Shepherd

*Consumer Comment: Tom brown and vom fieldcrest shepherds

*Author of original report: Rebuttal to Eurosport K9 - 2

*Author of original report: Second Rebuttal to Mr. Leggett

*Author of original report: Rebuttal to Still Love My Rocky aka Dona

*Consumer Comment: Bill

*Author of original report: Rebuttal to GSDLover

*UPDATE Employee: Response to Robert regarding my statement - Leggett

*Consumer Comment: Still Loving My Rocky

*Author of original report: Rebuttal to Dona

*Author of original report: Rebuttal to Mr. Leggett

*Consumer Comment: I have had 3 dogs from Tom

*Author of original report: Rebuttal to Eurosport K9

*General Comment: Love My VomfieldCrestSheperds Dog

*UPDATE Employee: False Claims about Bill and Vom Fieldcrest Shepherds

*UPDATE Employee: False Claims About Bill the Dog and Vom Fieldcrest Shepherds

*Consumer Comment: Tom Brown

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This is long but worth reading if youre in the market for a protection dog.  In April of 2011 we purchased a three-year-old Level III personal protection dog named Bill from Vom Fieldcrest Shepherds, owned by Mr. Tom Brown, for $20,000, not including a $4,000 delivery charge. Bill was then shipped from Slovakia to Mr. Brown. Mr. Brown then trained Bill for four months before delivering him to us.

Bill was a beautiful and impressive physical specimen. Unfortunately, his extremely dangerous temperament and profoundly disobedient behavior did not manifest themselves during the two days Mr. Brown spent with us when delivering Bill.  This brings to mind the contention of many, if not most, trainers owner/handlers must participate in training.

Bill had the best ofeverything during the five months he was with us, was never subjected to harsh treatment, and we were very, very fond of him, thinking his behavior and nature would improve, as we were assured by Mr. Brown, with whom we attempted to maintain a working relationship.  We went the extra mile and then some.

Bill would not allow us to look in his left ear he was scratching. Our veterinarian had to anesthetize him to do so and found a serious infection.  This was soon after Bill came to us.

Bill exhibited the following undesirable traits after delivery: very poor on-leash behavior and no off-leash discipline, failure to follow commands; owner aggression (growling at and threatening by placing paws on owners shoulders and/or cornering owner with teeth bared), food guarding, domestic and wild animal (horse, dog and elk) aggression,  stranger aggression, uncontrollable trembling and hair loss, inability to be socialized.  These behaviors then escalated.  While walking Bill, my wife slipped and fell in the snow.  Bill was immediately at her throat, growling.  In an experiment, with Bill on the pinch collar and leash, I purposely fell, and Bill attempted to attack me and did not obey the out command, almost pulling my wife to the ground.  The final straw and most serious incident occurred when I was walking Bill and accidently stepped on his paw.  He then leaped on me, knocked me to the ground, and began a serious biting attack.  I was able to throw the end of the leash to my wife, who pulled him off me, but it took every ounce of her strength.  Bill had refused to comply with the out command.

Mr. Brown stated, This dog is not to be around children. This does not square with his web site announcement, Our Personal Protection Dog will be expected to fit well in a social and family setting.  Mr. Brown also said, He should be on the pinch collar and leash whenever he is outdoors.  This remark followed an event in which Bill, having spotted a herd of elk, pulled the leash hard enough to slam my wife to the garage floor and break her grasp on the leash.  Bill did not respond to the recall
command.  It took 45 minutes to find him with the leash caught on a tree stump. This recommendation precluded electronic fence training and necessary exercise.

For several months, we considered getting a replacement dog from Mr. Brown but determined the risk was too great.  We then called Mr. Brown, and he agreed to refund our money.  We then received from Mr. Brown a written agreement stating we would forgive claims of any nature against him and not make negative comments concerning Vom Fieldcrest Shepherds and he would make installment payments. The agreement did not contain any dates for payments, payment schedule, or amounts.  When asked about this omission, Mr. Brown stated we should trust him to refund our money.  Several e-mails later, he offered $100 per month, at which rate it would take 16 years to make good on the refund.

Mr. Brown stated inan e-mail of 11/21/12, We have no money ... period!Simple! When I went outside the original contract by trying to refund your purchase price, it was with theunderstanding that the money would come from the sale of 3 or 4 dogs over time. Even that has not happened. WE HAVE NO MONEY! We cannot be bound by a signed payment schedule based on your amounts with no appreciable income.  By a freak of nature, should you get a judgement against me you would leave me no choice. I would have to file bankruptcy.

A fancy web site does not a reliable protection dog make. Embarrassingly, we were nave enough to rely upon the assurances of Mr. Brown and testimonials, one of which we later learned was from a broker of European dogs. Another of the testimonials is that of my wife, filmed during the two days Bill was delivered, despite subsequentevents.  It is telling that the Critical Concepts cited on his web site do not include basic obedience and sound temperament.  As of this date, Mr. Brown claims, Having been in business for 35 years, we have not had an indiscriminate bite reported to us, though we returned Bill to him in March 2012 with pictures of the bites and he never requested further proof.

Draw your own conclusions. Is it reasonable to assume a dog can be adequately trained in obedience and personal protection in just four months and therefore become worth $24,000? Bills biological ancestors were trained in Schutzhund.  Is it likely he lived in a kennel for three years for the same purpose, and is that compatible with family life?  Do you think his training guaranteesexceed the industry standard."  After reading Mr. Browns statements and the facts surrounding our experience, do you feel confident you could avoid liability for a dog bite lawsuit?  Do you feel comfortable owning a dog that may use his/her own judgment regarding who to attack?  Why does Mr. Brown have no money?  Why is he not selling dogs?  Just what are his credentials?  Do you think he intended to refund our money?  Do you really want to do business with this man?

The events described were traumatic in the extreme, and we lost a substantial sum of money, but our dog Bill was the real victim.




This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 01/22/2013 04:48 PM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Vom-Fieldcrest-Shepherds/Wichita-Kansas-67209/Vom-Fieldcrest-Shepherds-Tom-Brown-Dangerous-Protection-Dog-Wichita-Kansas-1001436. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.

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#1 General Comment

Lack of a life!

AUTHOR: kellyhvk1 - ()

 To the guy who chose to obviously feels threatened by my comments. Why the attack on me? To google any type of negative information on me and to copy and paste that info on this website is a blatant low life move to discredit me. That information that you posted was from 6 years ago and holds no relevance to my comments that I posted. I do not have any knowledge of either party. To say that I know the the seller because he lives in Kansas and I also live in Kansas..,is just down right stupid and shows your common sense.  Dude, you really need to stay on topic- you have no idea of where I stand in my life at this point and to suggest that you do; is nothing but an out right lie. Get a life!
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#2 Author of original report

Rebutal to Kellyhvk1-augusta

AUTHOR: Robert - ()

Unless there are two people with the Internet handle Kellyhvk1 living in Kansas, who is highly unlikely, the person who posted this response, which is filled with questions better asked of Mr. Brown, also made the following post to www.help.com.  It is too pitiful for words.  And if you think he doesnt know Mr. Brown, who also lives in Kansas, I have a bridge to sell you.  Just where did this character come from?  Maybe Tom Cruise and John Travolta are right about space aliens.  He cant handle his own affairs but thinks he can handle mine? 

Please forgive me,I am unsure how to go about

BEGGING FOR HELP!

I have so much to say and I do not want anyone who could potentially help us to get board with reading my story; there are so many of them on here. I am a married man of 43 with 4 wonderful children. I used to work a fulltime job up until a couple of years ago. In 2004? I was diagnosed with a severe heart condition which has left me disabled. That in itself is very hard to wrap my mind around but it is true! My family and I were living the American dream, home, financial stability, love and Life. Since my diagnosis we have struggled to make ends meet but we were able to keep our heads above water, just barely. That is until we got tied into a Bad refinance plan. We refinanced our home mortgage in 2004? with a 3yr ARM thinking that we were going to be able to save some money and have a little more brieathing room. Later in 2007? the ARM converted and we were now paying 3% high interest which inturn raised our payment by $400 to which we couldnt afford. Because of the higher payment and the increasing medical bills, we had to declare bankruptcy. By filing BK we were able to buy some time to where we could regroup and try to refinance our mortgage. Our broker told us that we could refinance if we waited until the BK discharged which brings us to Jan.08?. Based on the comments from our brokerwe didnt make Feb-march mortgage payments. We used the money to pay bills and help with the household nessecities. Our broker assured us that we could refinance and the missed payments would be made up as part of the terms of the note. In late March, our broker told us that he was wrong about us being able to qualify for a loan and that we indeed would not be able to refinance at this time. Because of his ineptitude, we are now looking at possible foreclosure starting in May or June unless we can make up the payments. Not only did his comments set us back the house payments but we were also drawn into the ugly situation of signing up for Payday Loans. Because of my prescriptions and the increasing medical copays that I had to pay for ongoing reatment due to my heart condition; we had to keep using the Payday loans to get by. We knew that the interest was high but we figured that we would pay them off with the proceeds from our home loan. Then when the loan fell through, we had to start paying the service fees out of pocket. We have to pay $850.00 per month in just service fees/interest on the PD Loans. I am at my wits end. Im not supposed to be dealing with any type stress but yet I have backed my family and myself into what seems an insurmountable mountain of debt and sorrow. I have talked to my mortgage lender and they are willing to work with us regarding making payments on the missed payments as long as we send a payment into them in May. The problem is the PD loan people take their fees directly from my bank account as soon as my disability benefits are direct deposited into my account, thus leaving hardly anything to be used towards the mortgage payments. If there was someway that I could just payoff the PD Loan companies I am sure we could get back on our feet. If someone is willing to loan my family and myself $6,500.00, to pay these loan sharks off, I would be willing to set up repayment terms that are directly removed from my account electronically and direct deposited into their bank accounts. I would even go as far as to allow this person the ability to file a lien on my property for the

term of the loan and this could be considerd a second mortgage. Any resonable interest could also be charged onto the loan. We are good people, as are probably most of the people who have had to resort to begging strangers for assistance on this site. I in no way saw my life playing out like this. I just pray to God that there are caring and generous people in this world that can lend a helping hand to his fellow man. God Bless all of you and hopefully our prayers will be answered.

kellyhvk1

___________



The reader should note the common thread in these so-called rebuttals to my complaint about Vom Fieldcrest:  religion.  For some reason, almost every one of these people see fit to drag God into the discussion.  Mr. Leggett has ties to acountrypawn, the minister-pawn broker.  Im expecting to hear from Jimmy Swaggert or Jim Baker next.

Do you notice how people who have either little or no formal expertise, training, experience, education, or knowledge of the facts of which I complain, many of which are substantiated by eye witnesses, a medical doctor, and a veterinarian familiar with the Dog Bill,  respond multiple times, two of them posting the exact same response twice each, as if to make it appear there many more people responding?

One person states the Iron Curtain was protective, and is unimpressed with a Top Secret security clearance, which is defined as:

The military possesses information and technology which could be helpful to our enemies. The unauthorized release of this information can compromise our nation's national security. Unauthorized release can cause battles/wars to be lost, missions to be ineffective, and can result in the death or injury of military and civilian personnel. A security clearance investigation is an inquiry into an individuals loyalty, character, trustworthiness and reliability to ensure that he or she is eligible for access to national security information. The investigation focuses on an individuals character and conduct, emphasizing such factors as honesty, trustworthiness, reliability, financial responsibility, criminal activity, emotional stability, and other similar and pertinent areas. All investigations consist of checks of national records and credit checks; some investigations also include interviews with individuals who know the candidate for the clearance as well as the candidate himself/herself.

TOP SECRET: Applied to information or material the unauthorized disclosure of which reasonably could be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security.

This same person is unimpressed with Army privates, which would disappoint the families of tens of thousands of privates buried in military cemeteries, and is also unimpressed with secretaries, who do most of the work in many businesses.
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#3 Consumer Comment

Questions & comments to author

AUTHOR: kellyhvk1 - (United States of America)

Please let me start off by stating that I could understand and agree with both sides of the participating parties. Both from a trainer and handler of personal protection K-9's and also as a consumer who also would be upset if such an investment in my families protection did not live up to the statements that convinced me to purchase said item.

 Please let me ask a few questions of the previous owner of the dog "Bill".

1. Please explain the time line when you first started noticing questionable temperment actions from Bill? Meaning- agressive non-provoked displays, non-reactive displays to verbal commands both on leash and off leash.
2. When you first started noticing these actions- what was you reaction to them and how did you defuse the situation?-meaning how did you get Bill to revert back to a docile state.

Note: what I am trying to establish is in no way trying to revert blame back on you as the owner/handler; I am just trying to establish certain characteristics of the dogs mental state.

3.During your first initial weeks of ownership-what training if any was done to establish any relationship with "Bill"; either obedience- situational training or playtime? Who was involved in the training? Meaning yourself, spouse, children or outside people?

 With regards to locating and establishing a relationship with a trainer in your local area.

1. Did Mr. Brown explain to you prior to your purchase the reason for retaining a local trainer and continuing the training w/ Bill? If not..,then that is a grievous error on his behalf. That is unless he had stipulated in his contract that he would indeed agree to come to you or work out arrangements for you to come to him for further and ongoing training of Bill.

2. At anytime did you seek out any advice from any local trainers after you started noticing temperament changes in Bill? Meaning- once you noticed that Bill was not acting in a manner that you thought he should-did you think to talk w/another trainer and have Bill tested or at least observed in the situation. By doing this-you may have a better understanding as to why Bill was reacting the way he was to certain situations and you could have better served your position w/ Mr. Brown and also possibly could have done some training w/ Bill to correct the problems. These things won't fix themselves.

*Please I am not casting blame- I am just trying to make a point to my posting on your complaint* If anything comes out of this- I want you to know, that even as traumatic as your experience w/Bill has been; personal protection K-9's if trained properly and the understanding that they constantly need training-even after their placement- will make for a very dependable and loving addition to anyone's family. You have to be informed though of what all ownership entails before you make that choice to purchase a PP k-9.

Although there are several reputable Kennels and trainers in our field. We have to understand that every K-9 is different and will react differently in their new homes. Keep in mind that if Bill came from a structured life where he was trained every day and then he is placed in a environment where the training schedule is not as stringent; you are asking for trouble. There has to be some degree of interaction w/these animals everyday. Otherwise they become confused and may even become "burned out". How fast that happens will depend on the temperament of the k-9. My point my better be understood from the statement that I read in a previous post where a trainer from the kennel witnessed Bill being trained for 7 hours during one day. Do you understand what I mean- Bill went from a schedule of training 7 hours a day to "?" many hours a day after his placement in your home. If Mr. Brown did not explain the importance of ongoing interaction with Bill prior to delivery- again that is an error on his behalf.

With regards to refunds or returns. I can appreciate your loyalty to Bill and wanting him to remain in the home with the family. However, if your communication with Mr. Brown had suffered once you notified him of Bill's current temperament; you should have recognized the potential threat that Bill posed as soon as he became handler aggressive and at least had him removed from the home and placed in a more secure setting away from potential harm to him or others. I am not aware of your lack of communication problems w/ Mr. Brown so I will leave that alone. However, even though you had a sizable investment in Bill's purchase..,he was a threat to you and your family and you should have recognized that.

I could go on and continue with a much lengthier post but I will finish with this. With the country being in such a state of flux and the handgun and weapons issue on the table..,making the decision to purchase a personal protection K-9 is a viable choice. Bare in mind though, owning these K-9's as positive as it may seem are not the choice for everyone. I personally believe that purchasing a puppy with a strong obedience foundation and equal prey drive and matching the K-9 with a suitable family and then integrating personal protection training is the most effective way of securing a long lasting relationship between Family & K-9.

This might be a viable & equitable outcome for both parties. This way you can have a decision in the choice and age of the puppy and work with the trainer of your choosing that would be located within a close proximity and could continue the training though out the life of the dog. This is what I offer to my clients. I am not breed specific but I am definitely temperament specific and handler specific. As with the K-9..,the training of the handler is just as important! If all of these things are followed to letter- you should be able to enjoy your new "Protective" family member for several years. I hope this helps! God Bless & good luck! 


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#4 Author of original report

Surrebuttal to GSDLover

AUTHOR: Robert - (USA)

Why does this use so many of the same phrases, words, mispelled words, poor grammar that are to be found in the remarks of Dona?

Unbelievable.  This one speaks for itself.
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#5 Consumer Comment

Protection dogs

AUTHOR: gsdlover - (United States of America)

Just because I bought a dog that was already trained does not mean I cant take to other trainers, not just for the dog but for me as well, like I said before you need to learn HOW TO HANDLE these dogs!!!!! Just because they come already trained does not mean they do not need any work. You are ignorant and I am done here, Tom is a great guy and I have a lot of respect for him. You sir have not done your home work on the kind of dog you where purchasing.
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#6 Author of original report

Further Rebuttal to GSDLover

AUTHOR: Robert - (USA)

It may make sense to you, but it doesn't to me that you would buy a trained dog and then have to go to another trainer.  But that is your business, not mine.

Because your dog or dogs, after being further trained, didn't have problems, how does that relate to the fact ours did?  How do you answer Mr. Brown's assertion, through his agent and employee Leggett, that the dog was mistreated, yet that only arose upon filing of my complaint and after he had offered to exchange the dog for another, which no one of conscience would do if the dog had been mistreated.  What evidence does Mr. Brown the dog was mistreated, which is a criminal offense in Washington State?  Do you have any idea of the number of credible eyewitnesses we have to the conduct of Bill the Dog, his life with us, the quality of his care, and his physical condition, up to and including his return to Kansas?  Do you have any understanding of the effect of the Vom Fieldcrest claim I mistreated the dog, a criminal offense in this state, on my reputation and good name in the small town in which I reside?  Do you really believe a 68-year-old man would have the physical wherewithall to mistreat a dog known to be dangerous to attackers?  Further, Mr. Brown agreed to refund the purchase price of the dog and then renegged.  These facts are memorialized in written correspondence from Mr. Brown.  How do you explain that?  Have you really thought any of this through?

The tally is now three former customers, one employee, two business associates, and one friend against the truth.
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#7 Consumer Comment

Protection Dogs

AUTHOR: gsdlover - (United States of America)

Yes my dogs I recieved from Tom where trained protection dogs all 3 and one of them is now workiong for the Police dep. here in Co.  I have know Tom for over ten years and he is a good christian man with very good morials and would go out of his way to please us. As Tom stated we should seek out a trainer to follow on his training and learn how to handle a dog like this.
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#8 Author of original report

Further Rebuttal to Lies About Tom Brown

AUTHOR: Robert - (USA)

Even in the event the contract for the sale of the dog Bill did absolve Mr. Brown from responsibility for unsound temperament and owner aggression resulting in injury, which is questionable since the contract guarantees sound temperament, the contract contains the following provision (grammatical corrections not made)

The application of any provision of this Agreement may be waived by the person or persons entitled to the benefit thereof, provided that no delay or failure on the part of any person in exercising any right hereunder, and no partial or single exercise thereof, shall constitute a waiver of any other rights hereunder.

The operative language of that is, any provision of this Agreement may be waived by the person or persons entitled to the benefit thereof...  In his e-mail of July 30, 2012, and a number of subsequent e-mails, Mr. Brown agreed to reimburse our cost of the dog.  Mr. Browns minister, who identifies himself as acountrypawn, which is also the name of a Wichita pawn shop, states he came to him seeking a loan for this purpose.  It seems reasonable to conclude this constitutes a waiver of any contract provision he need not reimburse us.  Would Mr. Brown, a shrewd businessman judging from the ironclad nature of his sales contract, promise us a refund and seek a loan for that purpose if he believed it was uncalled for?  He cant have it both ways.

Unfortunately, Mr. Brown then failed to refund or offer even his cost for the dog, for which he has now been paid twice:  once by us and again by another buyer. He had that money in hand.  He didnt need a loan to offer that.  Does this amount to doing the right thing?  Isnt doing the right thing the basis for the integrity acountrypawn speaks of?  Wouldnt offering us at least his documented cost for the dog, which may have resolved the matter, have been, to again quote acountry pawn, the moral thing to do?

Mr. Brown has no first-hand, non-hearsay knowledge of this dogs history spanning the three years before he purchased him.  Suddenly, German shepherds of unsound temperament dont exist?  Suddenly, no one who has had a devastating experience should have the right to inform others of the potential dangers of dealing with a business?
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#9 Author of original report

Rebuttal to Lies Against Tom Brown

AUTHOR: Robert - (USA)

Here is another rebuttal that was posted twice.  I might believe one time was an accident.  But twice?

A couple of the responses to my complaint came from people who may have believed they were doing the right thing but just didnt have the facts right and wanted to believe Mr. Brown.  This particular respondent is protecting a friend of 25 years.  That part of it I understand and admire.  Loyalty is a rare character trait in these times.  He also states he helps the disadvantaged.  That, too, is a good thing.  He says, in so many words, he has evaluated every tiny crevice of this dispute.  He then renders judgment, making it sounds as though he is doing so with divine blessing.  It is my opinion God doesnt work that way, and I think this gentleman would agree.

Why would this gentleman advise Mr. Brown, If they sue you and if they got a judgement file for bankruptcy if he thinks I have no moral or legal basis for his claims?  Further, this man has related an inaccurate and incomplete chronology of events, whether he knows that or not.  I would prefer to believe he doesnt, but the more I read the more difficult it becomes.  For instance, people who know Mr. Brown know he is set in his ways and isnt easily intimidated.

How many among the readers of my complaint, the responses, and counter-responses have endured a vicious attack by an 80-pound German Shepherd and bites within six inches of the throat, saved from further injury and maybe death only by a woman pulling frantically, with all her might, on the leash she was thrown?    After the attack and Bills return, we considered getting another dog for at least two to three months and decided we couldnt risk another attack either on either of us or another innocent person.  It was only then we asked for a refund, to which Mr. Brown agreed.

Mr. Brown presented for our signature an agreement requiring we give up the right to complain or seek legal redress on any account whatsoever, including the attack by the dog Bill, with no payment amounts or dates specified.  After being repeatedly asked to be reasonable and modify the agreement, he offered only a refund to be paid over a period of 16 years, which far exceeds my life expectancy and probably his.   It was only then his liability for the dog bite attack and negligence in the training of the dog Bill was mentioned, which we would have given up in the spirit of compromise and economy.  This is a matter apart from the dog purchase contract, the terms of which we have been aware of since we signed it.  Just when did Mr. Brown make a reasonable effort to settle this matter, despite the fact he sold this dog again and made a double profit?  Does this amount to going to extremes? Mr. Brown could and should have easily avoided these exercises by delivering to me what I paid for and what he had promised and then being reasonable after learning the results.  I told him to consult with an attorney.  Does this amount to a threat?  Are all of the many Internet complaints about dog breeders and/or trainers threats and intimidation?

This mans guess regarding pending lawsuits is just that - a guess - as are several of his statements, well intentioned or not.  Guessing does not meet the standard of good old common sense.  I have friends who are not privy to everything I do or my reasoning.  So does Mr. Brown.  In latter years even ministers have been called to the carpet.  .I can only hope this respondent is not of that ilk.  No one is exempt from imperfection, including myself.

Those who have read everything including and following the primary complaint need read no further.  For the benefit of those who have not, I include the following information, none of which was addressed by this respondent.

Bill was a beautiful and impressive physical specimen. Unfortunately, his extremely dangerous temperament and profoundly disobedient behavior did not manifest themselves during the two days Mr. Brown spent with us when delivering Bill.

Bill had the best of everything during the five months he was with us, was never subjected to harsh treatment, and we were very, very fond of him, thinking his behavior and nature would improve, as we were assured by Mr. Brown, with whom we attempted to maintain a working relationship.  We went the extra mile and then some.

Bill exhibited the following undesirable traits after delivery: very poor on-leash behavior and no off-leash discipline, failure to follow commands; owner aggression (growling at and threatening by placing paws on owners shoulders and/or cornering owner with teeth bared), food guarding, domestic and wild animal (horse, dog and elk) aggression, stranger aggression, uncontrollable trembling and hair loss, inability to be socialized.  These behaviors then escalated.  While walking Bill, my wife slipped and fell in the snow.  Bill was immediately at her throat, growling.  In an experiment, with Bill on the pinch collar and leash, I purposely fell, and Bill attempted to attack me and did not obey the out command, almost pulling my wife to the ground.

Mr. Brown stated, This dog is not to be around children.  His web site says, Our Personal Protection Dog will be expected to fit well in a social and family setting.  Mr. Brown also said, He should be on the pinch collar and leash whenever he is outdoors.  This recommendation precluded electronic fence training and necessary exercise.  As of this date, Mr. Browns web site claims, Having been in business for 35 years, we have not had an indiscriminate bite reported to us, though we returned Bill to him in March 2012 with pictures of the bites and he never requested further proof.

Mr. Brown, through his associates, has stated he was unfairly targeted.  This can only mean he considers all or some of the following to be untrue:  That the dog Bill was not dangerous and did not do the things we say he did.  That the bite photos were faked.  That the bites were not serious.  That the treating doctor is a liar.  That I didnt wait to seek medical attention until Bill was gone so he couldnt be impounded and possibly euthanized.  That we are not devoted to animal welfare and rights though we are members of a no-kill humane society, have personally rescued three dogs and fostered one during our three-year Washington State residency, and our living trust names a no-kill humane society as the sole beneficiary.  That Bill was mistreated/abused and yet Mr. Brown offered to send us another dog, which no responsible and caring trainer would do.  Following Bills return, Mr. Brown informed us he thought a police department would be a more suitable placement for Bill.  Mr. Brown told us he was a former management executive.

The purchase and contemplated enjoyment of Bill were the dream of a lifetime for my wife and me.  We were absolutely thrilled.  Embarrassingly, we were nave enough to rely upon the assurances of Mr. Brown and his web site claims and testimonials, one of which we later learned was from a broker of European dogs who is also the subject of a RipOff Report complaint.

It has also been stated by an employee Mr. Brown has sold dogs to Millionaires, CEO's and his training is known around the world.  Does this square with his claim he has no money and is in financial trouble?  Did the CEOs and millionaires run out of money?  Where is there to be found proof of his world-wide training reputation?  If it exists, I would like to know so I can correct that part of my complaint.  And that goes for anything else I have stated that is proved to be untrue.

To this day, I remain open to settlement overtures containing reasonable terms but am realistic enough to know that is but a pipe dream and this must be done the hard way.


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#10 Consumer Comment

Lies Against Tom Brown

AUTHOR: acountrypawnguy - (USA)

I have known Mr. Tom Brown for over 25 years. I know his wife Marty and his son Jessie. I have worked hand in hand with Tom Brown is serving churches, serving the needy, ministering to the hurting. I have been to his kennels, I have seen his dogs.  In this particular matter I have read all the contracts involved and Mr. Brown has shown me all the correspondence as well as the emails and texts.  Mr. Brown met with me to discuss this matter. He wanted my honest counsel both positive and negative.  I looked at the issues and came to these conclusions. The reason this customer has resorted to the Rip Off Report is because he has no moral or legal basis for his claims.  The contracts clearly spell out the conditions regarding refunds or returns of dogs. This client not only refused a replacement dog..he then resorted to making malicious claims against Mr. Brown trying to intimidate him. You all know how it works. You get that one customer who is angry. You have everything legal and in writing then the customer begins to threaten you.  I will sue you. I will sue you for damages. I don't want to deal with you...blah, blah, blah. So this customer threaten's Tom Brown...Tom is not used to being sued or threatened so he tries to work out a situation that maybe he could give this client a refund. Mr. Brown had a slow period and inquired from me about a loan to give this man a refund even though he had NO legal obligation to do so.  This client continued to threaten Tom.  Mr. Brown met with me on several occasions as well as counsel from his attorney. Mr. Brown discussed this matter with other men who are in business.  It was I who told Mr. Brown...if they sue you and if they got a judgement file for bankruptcy.  Not legal advice but one man's opinion. Let's cut to the chase. This customer has no legal ground as is now resorting to the internet to harm Mr. Brown's business.  You all know what this is don't you?  This is a case of a man not following his contract and then using the treat of legal action to harass and intimidate Mr. Brown. If this man had a legal case where is the lawsuit?  My guess..his attorney has already looked over the contract and told him..you have no case. Now, in Kansas you can file a lawsuit. You can rack up thousands of dollars in legal fees..but if you lose..if there is a clear cut contract..well it's gonna cost you a bundle making a false lawsuit.  So here we are..on the internet playing public gossip because one unhappy customer is trying to do his best to destroy a man of honor and integrity.  I have served as a Police officer, Security Director of a regional mall, in a half-way house with federal prisoners. I have been a minister for over 30 years. I have a wife and six children. I can tell you from a bevy of experience that no one is perfect. But I can honestly say that Mr. Tom Brown has never ever tried to rip anyone off. To the contrary..he will got to extremes to makes sure he has done right by his customers. In the man's case...there was no reasonable way to satisfy him let alone keep him as a customer.  Remember...even Jesus himself was crucified publically.  While Mr. Brown is certainly not Jesus...this customer has certainly lost touch with common sense.
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#11 Consumer Comment

Lies Against Tom Brown

AUTHOR: acountrypawnguy - (USA)

I have known Mr. Tom Brown for over 25 years. I know his wife Marty and his son Jessie. I have worked hand in hand with Tom Brown is serving churches, serving the needy, ministering to the hurting. I have been to his kennels, I have seen his dogs.  In this particular matter I have read all the contracts involved and Mr. Brown has shown me all the correspondence as well as the emails and texts.  Mr. Brown met with me to discuss this matter. He wanted my honest counsel both positive and negative.  I looked at the issues and came to these conclusions. The reason this customer has resorted to the Rip Off Report is because he has no moral or legal basis for his claims.  The contracts clearly spell out the conditions regarding refunds or returns of dogs. This client not only refused a replacement dog..he then resorted to making malicious claims against Mr. Brown trying to intimidate him. You all know how it works. You get that one customer who is angry. You have everything legal and in writing then the customer begins to threaten you.  I will sue you. I will sue you for damages. I don't want to deal with you...blah, blah, blah. So this customer threaten's Tom Brown...Tom is not used to being sued or threatened so he tries to work out a situation that maybe he could give this client a refund. Mr. Brown had a slow period and inquired from me about a loan to give this man a refund even though he had NO legal obligation to do so.  This client continued to threaten Tom.  Mr. Brown met with me on several occasions as well as counsel from his attorney. Mr. Brown discussed this matter with other men who are in business.  It was I who told Mr. Brown...if they sue you and if they got a judgement file for bankruptcy.  Not legal advice but one man's opinion. Let's cut to the chase. This customer has no legal ground as is now resorting to the internet to harm Mr. Brown's business.  You all know what this is don't you?  This is a case of a man not following his contract and then using the treat of legal action to harass and intimidate Mr. Brown. If this man had a legal case where is the lawsuit?  My guess..his attorney has already looked over the contract and told him..you have no case. Now, in Kansas you can file a lawsuit. You can rack up thousands of dollars in legal fees..but if you lose..if there is a clear cut contract..well it's gonna cost you a bundle making a false lawsuit.  So here we are..on the internet playing public gossip because one unhappy customer is trying to do his best to destroy a man of honor and integrity.  I have served as a Police officer, Security Director of a regional mall, in a half-way house with federal prisoners. I have been a minister for over 30 years. I have a wife and six children. I can tell you from a bevy of experience that no one is perfect. But I can honestly say that Mr. Tom Brown has never ever tried to rip anyone off. To the contrary..he will got to extremes to makes sure he has done right by his customers. In the man's case...there was no reasonable way to satisfy him let alone keep him as a customer.  Remember...even Jesus himself was crucified publically.  While Mr. Brown is certainly not Jesus...this customer has certainly lost touch with common sense.
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#12 Author of original report

Rebuttal to I See Clearly Now

AUTHOR: Robert - (USA)

I think you have a bad case of misguided loyalty.  The truth hurts, which is why you are denying it with such ferocity, unmoved by even documentary proof and obvious truths.

My league?  As I just told someone else, Im out to right a wrong and to help others avoid what we went through.  There are hundreds of stories like this on the internet.

Yes, a person of any rank but E1 can get a clearance, but there is a thorough background check.

No one can be successfully sued for telling the truth.  We are not behind the Iron Curtain.  You are mistaken, unless you, too, helped train the dog.  Why not?  Everyone else did.

Mr. Brown is responsible for my complaint, not me.  Yes, I should have just let him take my money after selling me a dog that may have come close to killing me.

I have the feeling you are always first in line.
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#13 Consumer Comment

I See You Clearly Now

AUTHOR: Dona - (United States of America)

I began this process to defend someone unjustly accused. I am ending my participation with these final words.

I find you enjoy conflict and deliberately bait and insult individuals to try and get them to respond in kind. Perhaps in your career as a court clerk or recorder you saw attorneys use similar tactics to bait witnesses. You, sir, or no attorney and you are way out of your league.

Your claim of a top security clearance in the United States Army is singularly unimpressive. A private could have achieved such a clearance as well as civilian secretaries, etc.

So keep enjoying your bitterness and hope that Mr. Brown does not decide to come after you for untruths that impugn his professional reputation and interference with his ability to make a living. On this page are enough testimonials who are personally familiar with this dog and his training to more than defend both Mr. Brown and Bill.

If you know how to research legal matters, and you should from your career, check out civil rights statutes. You are deliberately spreading falsehoods that directly impact someone's ability to make a living. Check it out. By trying to harm Mr. Brown knowledgable professionals and satisfied customers have publicly come to his defense and by doing so have placed you on notice of the truth. You should have left it at you were an unhappy customer but you couldn't stop pushing the envelope.

I will not respond to anything else you have to say and I applaud Mr. Brown for not engaging with you on this forum. But should Mr. Brown decide to pursue legal action against you, I will be the first in line to support him. I can't tolerate a bully and you, sir, or a bully.
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#14 Author of original report

Rebuttal to Our Vom Fieldcrest Shepherd - Dr. C

AUTHOR: Robert - (USA)

It is obvious you have not read our complaint and its accompanying surrebuttals.  The initial complaint and our last rebuttal, posted about 5:00 p.m. PST, are perhaps most telling.  You see, the question is whether you are interested in discovering the truth or making a decision based on misguided loyalty.  Our aim is to save others from the anguish we experienced with Mr. Brown and right a wrong.  I have done nothing but state facts and cite events.  Yes, the truth can threaten a wrongdoer.  If you consider that an attack, you are not experiencing reality.

If I am not mistaken, you formerly had a dental practice in Oregon and bought from Mr. Brown a Doberman.  I see you have returned to Kansas.  If I am mistaken, you can set that right, should it matter.  It appears, from a reading of your last paragraph, you are presenting yourself as an expert on GSDs or protection dogs in general, though you state otherwise.  It is somewhat confusing.

The fact you contacted Mr. Brown, related your personal history, and then purchased a dog from him has little value in the discussion at hand.  As to Mr. Browns advice to you regarding treatment of the dog, we heard the same things and followed Mr. Browns advice.

I feel compelled to observe you are not qualified to characterize the level of dog training achieved at the hands of Mr. Brown, though you have.  Nor do you know anything at all about us, and I suspect you are unwilling to learn anything about us by reading the suggested material.  Now that Ive gotten your hackles up it is unlikely it would be productive of any good.

Unless you are clairvoyant, you could not possibly know the training methods used were not consistent with Mr. Browns training philosophy, whether we know how to communicate with a dog, or what brand of tee shirts I wear.  There is little question you bought into Mr. Browns version hook, line, and sinker, without questioning its veracity, which is nonexistent.

An officer, eh?  Damn the evidence and full speed ahead?
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#15 Author of original report

Rebuttal to Lenn Heafey

AUTHOR: Robert - (USA)

No, you are not sorry I had a negative experience with my dog Bill.  But we are.  In spades.  Or I would have returned him after the first month.  Your response is money-driven networking.  To you and the universally admired, we are informed, Mr. Brown, a dog is measured by how much money he will bring in.  A dog means something entirely different to us.

I am glad you showed up.  Ive been waiting for your comments.  Finally, here is someone who can tell us what happened to the elusive Mr. Brown, since you spend so much time with him, and where to find a listing of his credentials and affiliations with professional organizations.  And yet another person who was present during Bills training.  Must have been a heck of a crowd.  Popcorn and all that, I assume.  And you travelled all the way from Lincoln or Niagara Falls just to assist in that training, taking you at your word.  Thats quite generous.  Just when was that?  Did he live with you for five months?

Mr. Brown says you are Manager of a K9 unit for a province-wide security firm.  In the States, that means rent-a-cop.  If it means something different in Canada, you are free to explain, though it makes little difference.  The internet also says you train dogs.  If Mr. Brown is training you to train dogs and he has no identifiable credentials, then  Well, that speaks for itself.  On the credibility scale, how do you rate your background against  my Top Secret Security clearance in the Army, my 40-year tenure with the Los Angeles Superior Court, my licenses in four states and Ontario, my wifes 23-year career in upper management with an international payroll company and 15-year career with Bank of America?

It is clear you are possessed of cosmic intuition when you state Mr. Brown was unfairly targeted.  You must then know beyond questionwhat?  That Bill was not dangerous and did not do the things we say he did?  That the bite photos were faked?  That the bites were not serious?  That the treating doctor is a liar?  That I didnt wait to seek medical attention until Bill was gone so he couldnt be impounded and possibly euthanized?  That we are not totally devoted to animal welfare and rights though we are members of a no-kill humane society, have personally rescued three dogs and fostered one during our three-year Washington State residency, and our living trust names a no-kill humane society as the sole beneficiary?  That Bill was mistreated/abused and yet Mr. Brown offered to send us another dog, which no responsible and caring trainer would do?  That Bill lived in a country club before coming to us, not after.

You state, Obedience can be taught to a dog in 7 days using non conflicting methods that work the dog in drive. Personal protection dogs can also be trained in that amount of time as well, when your training a personal protection you are just modifying the dogs natural drive.  Thats from zero to obedient protection dog in two weeks.  No wonder we had problems.  And guess what?  You forgot several crucial aspects of training:  off-leash handling and the out and recall commands.  Why are they crucial?  Read our complaint again.  Look at dog training expert web sites.  Responsible trainers with impressive credentials consider these disciplines foundational.  We know.  We asked.  We are talking common sense here, not rocket science.

You are trying to dodge the bullet again, a la Mr. Leggett.  This is silly.  The all too obvious intent of the question regarding was whether he spent a goodly amount of time in a kennel, including nights and parts of the day, then being allowed exercise or experience training, and whether that is compatible with an easy transition to a family home setting.  Some experts dont think so.  What is highly unlikely is that the Slovakian breeder had a half dozen or dozen dogs sleeping by the fire.  For that matter, what the devil was he doing in Slovakia for three years?  Yes, I said three.  But we both know the most likely answer to that.

Here your didactic manner is somewhat depressing.  My question:  Do you feel comfortable owning a dog that may use his/her own judgment regarding whom to attack?"  Your answer:  If you and your wife are in bed sleeping and someone kicks in your door the last thing you would want is for you dog to use his/her own judgement and attack.  This answer is unintelligible, but I will attempt to answer what I believe you meant to say.  I want the dog to give me a warning so I can be there with Mr. 9mm or Mr. 12 gauge to dispose of the threat to my family and my dog.  The dog would stand his ground as backup and attack on command.  What if it was the plumber and the dog attacked?  The plumber would own me.  Or your unexpected teenage son who visited only occasionally?

Your question:  If a dog lacked the ability to intuitively understand the intent of people why would you want a protection dog?  Answer:  I wouldnt want the dog, with only the amount of training Bill came with, including but not limited to his failure to out and be recalled.  Are you suggesting the dog should be on the floor of the stock exchange?    Come on.  This is just too basic to be worthy of discussion.

You have chosen not to answer a number of questions arising from statements in my complaint, among which are:  Mr. Brown stated, This dog is not to be around children.  His web site says, Our Personal Protection Dog will be expected to fit well in a social and family setting.  Mr. Brown also said, He should be on the pinch collar and leash whenever he is outdoors.  This recommendation precluded electronic fence training and necessary exercise.  As of this date, Mr. Brown claims, Having been in business for 35 years, we have not had an indiscriminate bite reported to us, though we returned Bill to him in March 2012 with pictures of the bites and he never requested further proof.

Mr. Brown could and should have easily avoided these exercises by offering to reimburse us in a time more reasonable than 16 years, especially since he has resold the dog and now made a double profit.

Have read anything written by Massad Ayoob?  You may not have.  He is one of those guys with credentials.  He truly is world famous, unlike Mr. Brown.  Do you know anything about the legal ramifications of self-defense gone wrong?  I do.  If you dont, you had better bone up.  A protection dog is no different than a gun, and you should always positively identify your target before you pull the trigger.
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#16 Consumer Comment

Our Vom Fieldcrest Shepherd

AUTHOR: Dr.C - (United States of America)

I gave my testimonial on Vom Fieldcrest's websight and was NEVER offered monitary compensation for what I wrote.  Mr. Brown never asked me to give a testimonial. I did that by choice. I am truly sorry you had a bad experience, but I feel you shouldn't attack everyone who has had a positive experience or question someone's integrity for posting his/her experiences with his/her dog.

I have had my dog, Kiki, for almost a year now. I can honestly say without reservation that she exceeds my wildest dreams. She is very even-tempered and is around children on a daily basis.

I knew very little about German shepherds or family protection dogs prior to dealing with Mr. Brown. Because I am a highly protective person, I was very worried about getting a vicious dog that might attack my family. When I made the decision to purchase one, I researched breeders and training methods. When I contacted Mr. Brown, I informed him that I myself was attacked by our family dog as a child and I was fearful of having a trained attack dog around my family.

Mr. Brown has been a wealth of information concerning breeding and its importance to a dog's temperament. Equally important is how the training methods used to train the animal can affect the agressiveness of the dog. Vom Fieldcrest shepherds are not trained by electric shock or violence. They are trained with positive reinforcement and repetition. This is very important because that type of training should be reinforced by the owner as well. Mr. Brown is very adamant about the first three months being the "settling in phase" and the dog and the family becoming a pack. He also has specific details about pinch collars being worn within the first three months. He also warned about over-training the dog. He stressed to us to "love on" the dog and include her in our daily lives. He said this would make the dog want to please and obey and not force the dog to obey. He taught us that voice inflection was important as well. As a former military officer, I had the tendency to "bark" commands. Mr. Brown gently discouraged me from doing this and explained that raising your voice makes the dog believe there is something wrong because that is the method for alerting the dog that an agressor is present. I very rarely raise my voice to Kiki now unless I want her to behave in a protective manner to a legitimate threat.

I have raised this point only to say the Vom Fieldcrest dogs are trained at a much higher level than most owners. How an owner acts and enforces their will can affect the temperament of the dog. Constant, harsh correction, even harsh verbal correction, can make the dog change, ie..cow down and shake. Constant correction without positive reinforcement and affection is not as successful with these dogs because they were not trained that way. I have no way of knowing how this owner continued the dogs training. It is all "his" word, but I suspect the training methods used to train this animal were not consistant with Mr. Brown's training philosophy.  It is our responsibility as owners to learn how to communicate with our dogs.

Mr. Brown has been there every step of the way with my family and I have absolutely no complaints. I have no reservations whatsoever and I highly recommend Mr. Brown and Vom Fieldcrest Shepherds.

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#17 Consumer Comment

Tom brown and vom fieldcrest shepherds

AUTHOR: Lenn heafey - (Canada)

I am sorry that you had a negitive experience with this canine.

after reading all the statements the author and and others have posted i feel that Bill and vom fieldcrest shepherds have been falsely targeted. I come to this conclusion not from the second hand accounts that have been posted here, but from first hand experience with tom brown and bill the dog. I am a professional canine trainer from canada and travel to train with tom brown quite often.

My first experience with tom brown was when i went to kansas, to lend my services as a decoy for a dog he was currently training named Bill. The author of this post had several questions at the end of his origial post that i would like to address.

First off the author asked and i quote " is it reasonable to assume a dog can be adequately trained in obedience and personal protection in just 4 months" well the answer to that is yes...obedience can be taught to a dog in 7 days using non conclicting methods that work the dog in drive. Personal protection dogs can also be trained in that amount of time as well, when your training a personal protection you are just modifying the dogs natural drive.

I would like to add as well that when i was helping train bill and other dogs that tom brown had at the time we started training at 7am and would finish at 2pm, thats 7 hours a day

the author also wondered if bill could have lived in a kennel for 3 years....it is HIGHLY unlikely that this was the case due to his health, a dog that lives in a kennel for 3 years is underworked, there muscles can start to break down if they do not have exersice.

The other question that i will answer is "do you feel comfortable owning a dog that may use his/her own judgement regarding who to attack" the answer is a easy one but ill put it to you in a way you can understand...if you and your wife are in bed sleeping and someone kicks in your door the last thing you would want is for you dog to use his/her own judgement and attack....its a wrong as you stating that a dog is not capable of intuitively understanding the intent of people

If a dog lacked the ability to intuitivey understand the intent of people why would you want a protection dog? With your logic anyone would be able to break in to your home and your new protection dog would wait until you were woke up by the intruder and for you to issue a command before acting. As far as i am concerned thats putting your family at risk.
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#18 Author of original report

Rebuttal to Eurosport K9 - 2

AUTHOR: Robert - (USA)

Fudging the truth there more than just a bit, arent you?  Wasnt the RipOff Report taken by the complainant more seriously than that?  Wasnt it a rather protracted affair?  Well, it is there for everyone to read.  I have read it.  You make some downright nasty comments there.

Is yours a language or literacy problem?  Maybe you should seek remedial education.  I have never stated anywhere I fell on the dog.  I said I purposely, in an experiment, fell to the floor.  This was 15 feet from the dog Bill, who then, on a leash, attempted to attack me.  Mr. Brown said, It must be something from his training.

Feel like telling us about your business connection to Mr. Brown?  I thought not.

So whos the idiot?



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#19 Author of original report

Second Rebuttal to Mr. Leggett

AUTHOR: Robert - (USA)

Comparing my initial complaint to your initial rebuttal side by side, it is apparent to anyone the facts supported by documents, which are difficult to discredit, are avoided and you have dodged the many questions posed.  Your observations regarding Bill, made many months after his stay with us, and the dog world in general just dont wash.  You have no special skill, training, education, or experience in that area.  What?  You have nothing to do in your life but hang around dog kennels, which, in no sense, are in any way similar to the family home setting.  Or are you another dog trainer without credentials?  Did you train him to comply with the recall and out commands?  Missed those, didnt you?  And off-leash training, too?  Or you just stood there, day after day, and watched him being trained?

Comparing my response to your second rebuttal side by side nets the same result:  dodging facts and questions as if they were poison.  And they are, from Mr. Browns point of view.  You speak of things of which you know nothing and attempt to fill a perceived and very real void with desperate lies, such as the accusation we mistreated Bill, such as our having immediately requested a refund, the latter of which is not what is reflected in written correspondence.  There has never been a hint of mistreatment until I filed my complaint, and no legitimate trainer would deliver another dog to an owner who had done that, which Mr. Brown has said in writing he was willing to do, in addition to which Mr. Brown stated many times we had done nothing wrong.

It is of interest Mr. Brown, when told we were returning Bill, said, Put him on a plane.  Told we would not do that to Bill, Mr. Brown asked why, to which we responded we didnt want Bill to endure such a traumatizing event.  My wife, at considerable risk, drove Bill from Washington to Kansas.

Other trainers have posted testimonials from celebrities.  Why not the world-renowned Mr. Brown?  Not even one?  Excuse my failing memory.  Where may his credentials be found?  What are your responses, as spokesperson for the mysteriously absent Mr. Brown, to the exhaustive list of documented facts and questions asked, which I wont continue listing time after time?

You have been caught red handed.  Save your future ranting for the intellectually disadvantaged.
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#20 Author of original report

Rebuttal to Still Love My Rocky aka Dona

AUTHOR: Robert - (USA)

In your first rebuttal, your verbatim use of two phrases contained in my complaint is, well, suspicious.  Detectives dont believe in coincidence, and neither do I.  And your grammar and spelling were poor.  Like Mr. Browns.  Mr. Brown, is that you, writing under a pen name?  Having what you write sent in by someone else?  No matter, I suppose.  And you have used another of my phrases verbatim in this last rebuttal. 



Whoever you are, you, too, have failed to answer any of the many, many questions raised in the complaint and my rebuttals.  Only facts trump falsehood, and you have offered none, because you know nothing about the situation other than what you were told by Mr. Brown, or you are talking to yourself.



Your use of the axiom, There is no such thing as a bad dog or horse. Just bad owners, is inappropriate in this situation.  Rather, the last sentence should read, Just bad trainers, or, Just people without scruples.



As to your question, How many sellers would offer you another dog or take back a diog (spelling again) after 5 (grammar again) months? the answer is those who have signed a contract to that effect and those who are concerned about being sued for negligence, misrepresentation, and traumatic dog bites.



Mr. Brown, through Mr. Leggett of Hollywood fame (another dog canine expert with no credentials), says he has sold the dog again.  If my math is right, that is two profits on the same dog, but he has no money but refused to reimburse even the cost of the dog.

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#21 Consumer Comment

Bill

AUTHOR: Eurosport - (United States of America)

The dog was a nice dog. I saw him and petted him and watched him work. He was handled by MANY people before you got him. I feel bad for the dog. He has suffered mentally but i am sure Tom found him a nice place.
You may want to read the Rip off report about Eurosport and the rebuttals. The dog was competing in the USA National Championship with the owner who accused us of selling a poor quality dog. This was several years later so, obviously, the dog was excellent.
I am sorry you have had a bad experience. I dont know why you would not try another dog to solve the problem.
Falling on a dog- on purpose- is so crazy that it cracks me up! What kind of idiot would fall on their dog to see his reaction? That is like falling on your kid to see if he cries!!
Tom did not train a service dog for you.
I have said what i feel and i am done with this.
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#22 Author of original report

Rebuttal to GSDLover

AUTHOR: Robert - (USA)

I will not take much time responding to what this poor woman has to say.  It is unclear whether she paid for a trained protection dog and then had to pay another trainer.  In fact, she has nothing to say that relates to my complaints about Mr. Brown or that changes the facts.  It is more of the same type puffery that can be found on the Vom Fieldcrest web site, and I wouldnt be surprised if there were more rebuttals like this on the way, which is surprising, since he says he has no money and isnt selling any dogs.  Are these rebuttals for real?   I say Nos. 1 through 3 (2 and 3 being the same) were made of whole cloth.  In any event, because of the timing, it is certain they were all solicited.  It strikes me Mr. Brown is conspicuous by his absence from the fray.

Is this lady aware Mr. Brown still claims on his web site, Having been in business for 35 years, we have not had an indiscriminate bite reported to us?
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#23 UPDATE Employee

Response to Robert regarding my statement - Leggett

AUTHOR: Jim Leggett - (USA)

I appreciate the association with Spielberg, but that fact of the matter is I was a first-hand witness to the training of Bill.

My claims to do not differ from Tom Brown's as many of his clients with famous reputations or security sensitive backgrounds choose not to put their names on every product they buy.

Also, my initial posting was made a second time by accident, with no intent of trying to spam the rebuttals.

I made no claim to have filmed the testimonial of Robert and his wife, as this was on location in Washington. I made training films and took footage of Bill while he was being trained in Kansas - and during that time Bill never showed ANY signs of over-aggression or ANY of the personality issues that Robert is claiming was the "norm" of his experience.

Mr. Robert, your claims are erroneous because these high-breed canines will not act the way you say Bill did unless they have been abused or maltreated in some way.

Continuing to attack a company whose owner bent over backwards to try and make things right with you shows that you are the bad egg, and that you obviously have nothing better to do than spend your time trying to defame Tom Brown for your own malfeasance with regard to Bill.

I have known Tom Brown for several years now and he is a man of impeccable character and a determination to make every client happy with the canines he offers. Tom Brown has an abundance of happy clients over the span of many years to prove he is running a legitimate business with a focus on customer service.
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#24 Consumer Comment

Still Loving My Rocky

AUTHOR: Dona - (United States of America)

I am truly sorry that you had a bad experience and that you find it necessary to impugn those of us who have had a different experience. Let me clarify for you that I claim no special dog training credentials. I just grew up with working dogs. Based on personal experience I know the quality of good sound GSD. I visited Tom's operation, met and visited with his family, spent hours talking to him about my needs and when I did pick up Rocky, was offered a choice of dogs. Tom explained why he thought Rocky was a good match and he was right. I don't wish to pick on you but in all fairness, how many sellers would offer you another dog or take back a diog after 5 months? If as is reported the dog showed no problematic behavior initially and is doing well elsewhere, then perhaps some personal responsibility on the part of the buyer is due. Where I grew up there is an old saying: There is no such thing as a bad dog or horse. Just bad owners. I regret being so blunt but you have set out to harm someone's livelihood and tarnish their integrity. Such action should never be undertaken lightly. I'll leave it to the reader to decide where responsibility lies if many of us have great dogs from this trainer and your dog only developed problems after being with you for some period of time. I'm sorry you are hurt and angry but the responsibility is most likely yours.
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#25 Author of original report

Rebuttal to Dona

AUTHOR: Robert - (USA)

I am happy this persons dog wasnt out of control   but dont understand how that diminishes my complaint.  Nor do I believe a dog is capable of intuitively understanding the intent of people, as Dona claims.  Is this another of Mr. Browns dog experts?  The fact this person may have purchased a dog of sound temperament is perhaps owed to the law of averages.  Further, the purchase sources, quality of training, biological identity, etc. may be different and are not discoverable at this time.  This rebuttal is essentially the same as the matching testimonial on Mr. Browns web site.  Regardless, I, for one, do not believe anything was protected by the Iron Curtain.
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#26 Author of original report

Rebuttal to Mr. Leggett

AUTHOR: Robert - (USA)

It is particularly distasteful to lend dignity to this rebuttal from someone claiming to be the Steven Spielberg of advertising videos for Mr. Browns web site, and YouTube, for which comments are disabled.  It is remarkable such skill is adequately compensated by an insolvent businessman.  Mr. Brown has stated in written correspondence, We own nothing.  We have no money.  We are, though, the first to acknowledge Mr. Leggett has in common with Mr. Spielberg a talent for fiction, and, necessarily, he is repeating what he heard from Mr. Brown.  The video testimonial of which Mr. Leggett speaks was taken not by him but by Mr. Brown, when the Bill was delivered.  This person has never met us and knows nothing of our backgrounds.  I will not bore the reader with details of our personal histories but to assure you we were not galley workers on the Good Ship Lollipop.

Mr. Leggett and Mr. Brown disagree on numerous issues.  Following Bills return, Mr. Brown informed us he thought a police department would be a more suitable placement for Bill.  My eyesight is not what it used to be, but I find no proof on the internet Mr. Brown has been training dogs for 40 years.  His experience and superior training are known around the world.  Mr. Brown told us he was a former management executive.  Nor can we find testimonials from Millionaires, CEO's, and Ex-Navy Seals even on his own web site.  If they exist, wouldnt he use them?  Just where are his formal, recognized credentials specifically listed?  Do the following documented facts jibe with Mr. Leggetts claims?  Mr. Browns statement he is selling no dogs.  Mr. Browns continued use of my wifes testimonial on his web site.   The attack resulting in Bills return occurred in March 2012.  Bill began his return journey to Kansas the day of the attack.  We first requested a refund in July 2012.  That is three or four months after the attack.  A legal remedy, to include a damage claim for the attack based on negligence, was not suggested until Mr. Brown repeatedly refused to repay more than $100 monthly and insisted we sign away any and all rights to redress even if he paid nothing.

Dog lovers do not change dogs like underwear.  A dog of ours is a member of the family.  We gave Bill every chance for five months, until the attack of March 2012, and were encouraged to do so by Mr. Brown.  This attack and the severity of its results were photographed, documented, and witnessed.  Some bites were within six inches of my throat.  After considerable deliberation, placing ourselves at risk of another such attack by an unsound dog was not an option.  Mr. Brown had already delivered one unsound dog.

You will note Mr. Leggett posted his response twice, perhaps in the belief quantity supersedes quality or that the responses would appear to be overwhelming.  Do you believe, as Mr. Leggett states, it is impossible to import a dog of unsound temperament from Slovakia?  Why did Mr. Brown say this dog was not to be around children?  Why did he say he was not to be off leash outdoors?  The casual researcher will discover hundreds of complaints about protection dog trainers and their breeders, nearly all of whom make claims similar to Mr. Browns.  The best a complainant can do is truthfully relate facts.  Facts dont lie.  People do.  It is up to the reader to determine who is believable.
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#27 Consumer Comment

I have had 3 dogs from Tom

AUTHOR: gsdlover - (United States of America)

I have had 3 personal protection dogs that we got from Tom all have been great dogs with great temperment, I am sorry you did not get what you wanted but he would got you the dog you wanted. As Tom suggested as soon as you get him home find a club or trainer that as training with this type of dog. Which we did, to found out not only did the dog need some training but us as well. These dogs are very high end sports cars and need to be learned how to drive before going 200 mph. It take some time about 3 months to really know how to handle him. We loved him so much we bought  another a female, which was a very high drive female, which wanted to eat our cat very much. With Tom's addvice, had her on leash for 2 months a with some good corrections,she did great with the cat. We did lose our male due to a bad liver . We where not expecting anything from Tom  and he replaced our male with a great male named Arry.
When I need any advice on training or anything Tom is there for me. I would buy another dog from him and would suggest him to friends.  My advice is let him get you another dog, you will not be sorry.
Tom is a great man and trainer
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#28 Author of original report

Rebuttal to Eurosport K9

AUTHOR: Robert - (USA)

This consumer is the European dog broker, Eurosport K9, owned by Taunya and Josef Mravik, mentioned in our complaint.  They have their own history of Ripoff Reports complaints.  Either this person, who has no direct knowledge of the events described in our complaint or the environment in which they occurred, thinks it their civic duty to rebut our complaint or there is something else at work here.  I leave that to the readers imagination.  The statement, Something was very wrong in his new environment to make him react poorly, is preposterous in light of the missing factual foundation.

Contrary to the Eurosport K9 statement, we did buy Bill sight unseen.  As our complaint states,Embarrassingly, we were nave enough to rely upon the assurances of Mr. Brown and testimonials Unfortunately, his extremely dangerous temperament and profoundly disobedient behavior did not manifest themselves during the two days Mr. Brown spent with us when delivering Bill.
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#29 General Comment

Love My VomfieldCrestSheperds Dog

AUTHOR: Dona - (United States of America)

I am the proud owner of a VomfieldCrestSherherds protection dog.  Rocky has been my companion, friend, and protector for almost 6 years now.  From the first interaction with Tom and his family, I found them to be straightforward, honest and on target.  My dog meets and exceeds the claims of the website.  He goes to work with me everyday and is loved by my clients and feared by any who would do harm.  It is amazing to watch him.  He seems to intuitively understand the intent of the people around him and makes his presence known when he feels it appropriate to do so.  And he does so with a measured response, never out of control.  Tom's dogs are excellent specimens of the German Shepherd dog before they were put through the puppy mills of the USA.  The dogs sold by vfcs were behind the iron curtain and were protected from the excesses brought about by the breeds popularity in the States.  They are intelligent, impressive physical specimens, calm of temperment, and loyal in the extreme.  My testimonial is on Tom's website and after six years I still am able without qualification to highly recommend his team.
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#30 UPDATE Employee

False Claims about Bill and Vom Fieldcrest Shepherds

AUTHOR: Jim Leggett - (USA)

I am an employee of Vom Fieldcrest Shepherds and have had first hand experience with Bill the Dog, that this report is about.

I am a film maker and producer for Vom Fieldcrest Shepherds and I watched Bill's training from his very first session.

First I need to point out that the report I am rebutting makes several false claims about the character and nature of Bill. There are dogs that can be naturally aggressive, but Bill was not one of them. Bill was easy-going and playful throughout his training. He was a highly rated and well bread dog, and I took hours of footage of his training.

The training given to professional personal protection dogs is meant to make them protective of their owners. Dogs are trained to attack an assailant on command, in order to provide protection. The truth about Bill is that he was playful, loving, and responded perfectly to commands given him by his owners every single time.

I have about an hour of footage that shows the owners who purchased Bill working directly with him. This footage shows that Bill responded excellently to their commands and was happily obedient.

Bill was the kind of dog that anyone would love to have - he loved being petted and getting attention, and compared to most other dogs I have taken footage of, was extremely easy-going.

Having known Bill first-hand, and worked with him closely during his training, I can say that the statements made here by the previous owners are completely false.

Tom Brown, owner of Vom Fieldcrest Shepherds, has been training dogs for 40 years. His experience and superior training are known around the world. He has clients that range from ranchers and dentists to Millionaires, CEO's, and Ex-Navy Seals - all of them have enjoyed excellent results from the dogs that Tom Brown has trained for them.

Highly bred dogs do not come with temperament problems. If a dog has a problem, it would be noticed in Slovakia and never put up for sale. Dogs are 1 to 2 years old when sold for training, so any temperament issues would be noticed early on, but breeders have worked with these dogs for centuries to produce well-tempered, superior German Shepherd stock. It's practically impossible to purchase a high-breed dog with physical issues of any kind, as the breeds are so well guarded and taken care of.

Another false claim is that the owners considered getting a different dog for several months. Tom Brown bent over backwards to help this couple with Bill and offered several times to exchange Bill for another dog - but from the first conversation the couple said they wanted a refund. Because of their high-breed and stable temperament, Tom's contract states that he will not refund money on a dog but will exchange them for another dog. Tom went above and beyond and did offer to pay the couple back, but they refused his offer and began to threaten legal action.

I do, however, agree with the previous owners in one respect. Bill was the real victim here. Fortunately Bill has been placed in a caring and loving environment with people who know how to take care of a dog.
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#31 UPDATE Employee

False Claims About Bill the Dog and Vom Fieldcrest Shepherds

AUTHOR: Jim Leggett - (United States of America)

I am an employee of Vom Fieldcrest Shepherds and have had first hand experience with Bill the Dog, that this report is about.

I am a film maker and producer for Vom Fieldcrest Shepherds and I watched Bill's training from his very first session.

First I need to point out that the report I am rebutting makes several false claims about the character and nature of Bill. There are dogs that can be naturally aggressive, but Bill was not one of them. Bill was easy-going and playful throughout his training. He was a highly rated and well bread dog, and I took hours of footage of his training.

The training given to professional personal protection dogs is meant to make them protective of their owners. Dogs are trained to attack an assailant on command, in order to provide protection. The truth about Bill is that he was playful, loving, and responded perfectly to commands given him by his owners every single time.

I have about an hour of footage that shows the owners who purchased Bill working directly with him. This footage shows that Bill responded excellently to their commands and was happily obedient.

Bill was the kind of dog that anyone would love to have - he loved being petted and getting attention, and compared to most other dogs I have taken footage of, was extremely easy-going.

Having known Bill first-hand, and worked with him closely during his training, I can say that the statements made here by the previous owners are completely false.

Tom Brown, owner of Vom Fieldcrest Shepherds, has been training dogs for 40 years. His experience and superior training are known around the world. He has clients that range from ranchers and dentists to Millionaires, CEO's, and Ex-Navy Seals - all of them have enjoyed excellent results from the dogs that Tom Brown has trained for them.

Highly bred dogs do not come with temperament problems. If a dog has a problem, it would be noticed in Slovakia and never put up for sale. Dogs are 1 to 2 years old when sold for training, so any temperament issues would be noticed early on, but breeders have worked with these dogs for centuries to produce well-tempered, superior German Shepherd stock. It's practically impossible to purchase a high-breed dog with physical issues of any kind, as the breeds are so well guarded and taken care of.

Another false claim is that the owners considered getting a different dog for several months. Tom Brown bent over backwards to help this couple with Bill and offered several times to exchange Bill for another dog - but from the first conversation the couple said they wanted a refund. Because of their high-breed and stable temperament, Tom's contract states that he will not refund money on a dog but will exchange them for another dog. Tom went above and beyond and did offer to pay the couple back, but they refused his offer and began to threaten legal action.

I do, however, agree with the previous owners in one respect. Bill was the real victim here. Fortunately Bill has been placed in a caring and loving environment with people who know how to take care of a dog.
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#32 Consumer Comment

Tom Brown

AUTHOR: Eurosport - (United States of America)

I have found Tom Brown very easy to work with. I bet he offered a nice replacement dog. We can not 100% predict how an animal and human relationship will develop. I have seen many of Tom's dogs and they are sound minded and social. If your family did not like Bill and he started having issues, why didnt you just get another dog from Tom?

If Bill didnt show any of the signs in the video with your wife or while she was at Tom's place evaluating and training Bill, it seems like every one thought he was a good dog. You did not buy him sight un seen and get ripped off. You made a decision and spent time with the dog. Something was very wrong in his new environment to make him react poorly.
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