• Report: #955986

Complaint Review: Wholaver's Huskies

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  • Submitted: Tue, October 16, 2012
  • Updated: Fri, March 08, 2013

  • Reported By: Annonymous — United States of America
Wholaver's Huskies
Internet United States of America

Wholaver's Huskies Color Scamming, Price Inflation, Bald Faced Liars. Internet

*Consumer Suggestion: Just a suggestion

*REBUTTAL Owner of company: Tired of the dramatic stupidity...

*Consumer Comment: Owner Caught In Yet Another Lie...

*REBUTTAL Owner of company: ...

*Consumer Comment: I too...

*REBUTTAL Owner of company: More Inaccurate Information....

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Wholaver's Huskies in PA is posting fraudulent information in regards to the color of their Siberian Husky puppies in order to inflate their prices. They are charging double the price for supposed Agouti colored dogs, that are not actually Agouti.

The Agouti color standard for the breed as set forth by the Siberian Husky Club of America (SHCA) states that Agouti is defined as such: AGOUTI AND WHITE

The guard hair is banded with black near the root and at the tip with a yellow or beige band at the center of the hair. Undercoat is very dark. Defined as the "wild color," it is most frequently seen in wild rodents.

This is copied from the breed color standard.

Wholaver's Huskies however, is falsely claiming that Red, Gray and any other color Siberian can be Agouti as well. This is clearly not the case, as it is stated in the color standard set forth by he SHCA.They are charging upwards of $1000 for a dog that is not at all what they are claiming, and cheating innocent people out of hundreds of dollars.

When confronted with these facts, Wholaver's Huskies immediately started claiming that they had contacted the American Kennel Club (AKC) and had been told that they were correct, and it was up to the interpretation of the individual as to whether the dog was Agouti or not. When the SHCA color standard was mentioned, Wholaver's Huskies had no knowledge of "that registry, we only use AKC". For those not versed in the SHCA, it is a parent club, not a registry.

However the next day, suddenly they had been in communication with the president of the SHCA, Ms. Jessop, and she had also informed them that they were correct, which is where the bald face lying comes into even bigger play. This "breeder" was now claiming that the SHCA was going to change the color standards for the breed, which have been in place for more than 40 years.

All of the above stated is completely untrue. This is a case of someone getting caught fleecing people by lying to them, and then telling even bigger lies when they are caught.

Please steer clear of Wholaver's Huskies in PA, they are liars and cheats with no knowledge of the breed they are scamming people on.

This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 10/16/2012 10:43 PM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Wholavers-Huskies/internet/Wholavers-Huskies-Color-Scamming-Price-Inflation-Bald-Faced-Liars-Internet-955986. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.

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REBUTTALS & REPLIES:
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Updates & Rebuttals

#1 Consumer Suggestion

Just a suggestion

AUTHOR: Anonymous - ()

After reading through all of this, I feel that the dramatic stupidity would stop if the owner would just own up to the fact that they flat out lied.  They just keep running around in a circle trying to cover up one lie with more lies.  You disagree with the first complaint and try to shift the blame onto who you believe the person was who posted it.  Then you disagree with the innocent potential customer and when they show physical proof of your lies, you try to agree and give a run around explaination of how you are still right and they are wrong.  Why not just admit to your original faults instead of digging yourself into a deeper hole with even more possible customers who will read this in the future?  Ultimatally, you are only making yourself look worse than you did in the beginning.  Plain and simple, based on the facts provided, you clearly labeled the puppy first what it actually is impossibly not.  Whether you were keeping the dog or not, this is a lie and false representation of what you are selling currently and in the future.  Now I am sure I will get some huge reply with more run arounds and long explainations but why not just save yourself the time and trouble and admit to your wrong doings?

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#2 REBUTTAL Owner of company

Tired of the dramatic stupidity...

AUTHOR: Truth - (United States of America)

You are correct about why Agouti would be more relevant to the average buyer, and I should be thanking you for your most recent post, as it actually confirms what I have been saying all along. Here is a breakdown of what happened.

Puppies came along, we stated that they were from an Agouti dam and we hoped that a few would be Agouti themselves. Specifically the red male we intended to keep. [note: we did not say they (he) were Agouti, try to sell them as such, etc. just that we hoped.] We also clearly stated that we were not going to title them Agouti until the guard fur came in.

In some sort of effort to exert dominance and display endless knowledge in all things Sib related, a few "knowledgeable" breeders (mainly Copperhead Kennels from AR and one that now has a Japanese name from PA [the name is escaping me right now]) decided to start spamming our wall saying that our puppies cannot be Agouti. Despite the fact that they were posting to our wall rather than sending private messages, calling, etc. we remained civil in discussing the matter. Since we did not automatically conform to their infinite knowledge and immediately retract a statement that was never made, totally disregarding any possibility of any of the litter being Agouti, they decided to spread the word that we were "fleecing" people. Once we realized Copperhead was selling Merle dogs as AKC we asked them about it, and they started deleting pictures and dog profiles from their website. But that is another issue altogether. 

We talked with multiple other breeders, including those who deal specifically with Agoutis, a very helpful person dealing with genealogy, and the parent club to determine if it was in fact possible to have a red Agouti. During this time is when the referenced Facebook posts / comments were made.

The puppy that was at the center of all this drama was sold as a dirty face copper.

So the basis for this scam report and continued stupidity is that we were supposedly attempting to sell / market a dog(s) as a rare color and were charging exorbitant prices for him(them). However, hopefully your mastery of  Google-FU presented you with the fact that Agouti is a gene, not a color. A fact that seems to be commonly missed during these accusations. Your Facebook post, that was not deleted simply because we had no reason to delete anything and nothing to hide, fairly clearly points out that; we were refusing to call them Agouti and that he was not even being sold. Who cares if we call the dogs we intend to keep Agouti, rare, Superman, or anything else. These terms were not applied to any dogs we intended to sell and were in no way marketed in that way as suggested. In fact, as I previously stated, when we decided it was best not to keep this specific dog, he was sold as a dirty face copper and nothing else. So the only lies and misconceptions here are those of people who continuously attempt to create stories out of thin air, halve truths, and lies by connecting irrelevant dots. As for steering clear of us, please do. In fact, maybe you should consider one of the fine "Piebalds" from Copperhead Kennels. And despite how stupid and irrelevant this actually is, as I mentioned in the prior post, these are my dogs and I will sell them for however much I choose, based on whatever reason I choose. That does not mean I will, but anyone who does not agree with this simple fact is free to also choose another breeder.
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#3 Consumer Comment

Owner Caught In Yet Another Lie...

AUTHOR: Anonymous - (United States of America)

Before I post my proof of the lie you were most recently caught in, let me just clear up those "ironic feelings" you had about my previous post.  Although this should be unnecessary had you proofread your own response.

The fact that I am an average person and know nothing of the breed is the biggest clue of all as to why I would remember the "trivial detail" of you calling the pup an Agouti.  Since I did not know what an Agouti was but they are priced higher than the other pups, I decided to utilize the vastly wonderful WWW and Google (that I so clearly have fingertip access to), and I looked it up.  Hence why I remember such a "trivial detail".  Just because average people do not have great knowledge on a subject does not mean they can not do their own research and simply look it up.

Now on to my main reason:  the great lie which you also so kindly provided and proved the main point of this.  Now I knew I had seen that you referred to the puppy as a red Agouti and called it rare.  So I put my research cap back on and went back to your Facebook page and looked it up, although you managed to delete most of the evidence, you forgot 2 critical comments.  And here they are.

Reserved Male 3
7-07-2012"}">Like Share J P likes this.M B Why is he reserved?July 15, 2012 at 4:32pm "}">Like Wholaver's Siberians We are keeping this little fellow. We had him on reserve because we were not sure if he was an agouti or not, turns out he is and we are very excited to see this little boy grow up!July 15, 2012 at 4:34pm "}">Like M B I'm so jealous, he's just to cute! (:July 15, 2012 at 4:36pm "}">Like Wholaver's Siberians I would be lying if I did not addmit he is the best looking puppy i have bred (hence why I decided he needed to stay) And for him to be a Red Agouti is so extremely rare.July 15, 2012 at 4:39pm "}">Like M B He is seriously to cute!! (:July 15, 2012 at 4:41pm "}">Like Wholaver's Siberians Thank you very much! I am in love with this little guy.July 15, 2012 at 4:42pm "}">Like

I apologize for the hard to read format.  I took out the full names of other posters out of privacy and respect for them, but other than that this conversation remains unedited.  So as per your last post, you clearly have flat out lied.  Proving once again that Wholaver's Siberians are liars and can not be trusted.  And just in case they delete these comments as well to hide their fraud and misrepresentations, anybody wanting the truth can simply contact me and I will gladly send them a copy of the screenshot I have.

I highly advise anyone and everyone to steer clear of Wholaver's Siberians.  If they are willing to go through this much trouble to hide, lie about, and mislead you on such a simple little petty matter, then at what lengths would they go to hide and cover up an even bigger matter that has to do with your future puppy.  They may seem like the perfect breeder on the outside, but it's always what's on the inside that counts!!
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#4 REBUTTAL Owner of company

...

AUTHOR: Truth - (United States of America)

There are a few things I find ironic about the most recent post. First being that I find myself quite often having to explain what an Agouti is. Most people just do not know, and have no reason to. So for someone to suggest that they were just an average person looking for a pet, but specifically remembers that we called him a red Agouti seems a little off balance. After all, it would not have any application in a normal pet owners life unless they owned one, so there would be no reason to remember such trivial details. The second thing I find ironic is that we were careful not to call him an Agouti at all before his guard fur came in. During those weeks we sought advise from multiple other breeders and resources. So at most we would have said we think he is going to be Agouti, but I am fairly certain even that was avoided. 

This post also mentions that we tried to "get rid of it" at a sky high price. Though I did not realize that selling pups at a pet quality cost that is even below many others is sky high. We also did not try to "get rid of it", as we found the pup a home. Yes, originally we had planned on keeping the pup (at least my wife did), because she usually tries to one or two from every litter. But our decision to sell had nothing to do with being "called out". We did not keep him because we already had three full grown Sib's, two of which were his parents, and we were happy with that. 

So as my final reply to this nonsense, I would like to say that if anyone is not happy with our prices, quality of dogs, or anything else, they are free to go to any breeder that they please. Aside from that, I have the right to sell my dogs for any price I choose for any reason I choose, just the same as anyone else. So the fact that these unwarranted claims still continue is just asinine. However the timing of both of these posts is amazing, and at some point in the future I will discuss the entire situation and why in a venue such as a blog or website. 
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#5 Consumer Comment

I too...

AUTHOR: Anonymous - (United States of America)

I just want to start off saying that I am not another breeder.  I was just a person looking for a puppy to purchase.  As per the original poster, I too seen where Wholaver's Huskies tried to claim the puppy was a "red agouti".  I am not a dog expert, let alone a husky expert, so I thought nothing of it.  But I just wanted to back the original poster's claims as being completely true.  Wholaver's Huskies were the first to claim that puppy as being a red agouti and wanted to keep the "rare" puppy for themselves, which is fine.  But when the puppy got older and as they got called out by numerous people that the puppy was not an agouti they tried to sell it at a sky high price and then eventually just got rid of it.  This screams all around scam to me, that and the fact that I had nothing to do with the "fight" between these two breeders and I was personally attacked in multiple private messages from Wholaver's Huskies.  All because I was looking to buy a puppy, any puppy at all.  I feel that is the very definition of rude and ignorant, not to mention unprofessional.
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#6 REBUTTAL Owner of company

More Inaccurate Information....

AUTHOR: Truth - (United States of America)

It is important to first note that there are more misrepresented facts in this "alert" than in the current Presidential Election. I will be more than happy to clear those up.

First, you should have a background of the conversation and how it got started. Immediately after our litters were born we posted them to our Facebook page. One litter was birthed by an Agouti dam, and one of those puppies was red. Shortly afterwards a few self proclaimed "knowledgeable breeders" began spamming our page stating that there is no such thing as an red Agouti. This alone presented multiple problems. First it was highly unprofessional, and the posters refused to hold the conversation elsewhere and instead continued posting directly to the wall. Second, their proof consisted of nothing more than a short, general, and very vague definition that they felt they were interpreting correctly. They could not provide any proof beyond their own "knowledge", and this single definition. Third, we did not make the claim red Agouti claim, the posters did that themselves. We reasonably defended ourselves from these unwarranted attacks, however our claim was the exact same as the attacking breeder has displayed on their website. That the pups carry the Agouti gene. When they began attacking, it was far to early to know if the dog would or would not be Agouti as the pups were only a few weeks old and had not grown guard fur yet. From there they claimed that we were attempting to charge more because of the color, when in reality our prices were based the same way other breeders determine price, the quality of the line. Our dam was significantly more expensive than the "normal" going rate for pet quality Huskies because she was born to a better line. The color and pattern had nothing to do with the price of our pups. 

As for the SHCA, it is amazing that they list contact information on their website. So yes, we really did call Ms. Jessop and have also been in contact with the Gene Specialist and others. However, we never mentioned any change to the breeding standards, because none is needed. Referencing the same materials as the poster [Coat Color Identification Guidelines ] you will notice that Agouti does not fall into either the Black and White, or Grey and White categories. Instead it is its own independent level two heading. 

Now the situation becomes very interesting when you discover who the original attackers (and anonymous poster of this report) are, and what they are doing. The primary attacker is a breeder called Copperhead Kennels in Arkansas, who ironically has sold countless Merle dogs as purebred. Yet, if you look at the same link referenced above (which is the only shred of information they have) there is a huge posting about the policy of Merle "Huskies" and why they are not purebred. So I find it highly ironic that someone who is selling mix breed dogs as purebred AKC is attacking someone because of a misinformed color identification (because they are attempting to take this beyond a simple gene identification and append specific coloring's). In addition, their fellow "knowledgeable breeders" continued to defend them even after what they were doing and why it was wrong was made quite clear. They continued attacking despite not having any other proof and not being able to come up with any other research suggesting they were right, such as genetics reports, and instead continue to rely on their own "knowledge". 

The bottom line is that the very people posting things like this report make the entire community of Husky Breeders look bad. Not only do they consistently initiate public bashing's, but they also fail to do any legitimate research and instead continue to pass false information simply because they "think" it is correct. There is no references, there is no supporting evidence to what they say. 
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