• Report: #173407

Complaint Review: AVON Products

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  • Submitted: Thu, January 26, 2006
  • Updated: Wed, September 21, 2011

  • Reported By:South Euclid Ohio
AVON Products
1251 Avenue Of The Americas New York, New York U.S.A.

AVON Products Fools Representatives into thinking they can earn Money Selling AVON ripoff New York New York

*General Comment: Avon Integrity (rebuttal to "Avon Stinks")

*General Comment: Veronica - that is horrible. Avon stinks

*Consumer Comment: Money Mismanagement

*REBUTTAL Individual responds: Stupidity

*UPDATE Employee: I just quit today...so angry

*UPDATE Employee: What Value Is Placed On Anything That is Free?

*General Comment: Avon Is Not a Pyramid Scam

*Consumer Comment: Not as Easy as they say

*Consumer Comment: Not making money with AVON?

*Consumer Suggestion: Learn what a pyramid scheme is before throwing the term around. Avon is Not a pyramid..and you'll learn why.

*Consumer Suggestion: Learn what a pyramid scheme is before throwing the term around. Avon is Not a pyramid..and you'll learn why.

*Consumer Suggestion: Learn what a pyramid scheme is before throwing the term around. Avon is Not a pyramid..and you'll learn why.

*Consumer Suggestion: Learn what a pyramid scheme is before throwing the term around. Avon is Not a pyramid..and you'll learn why.

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: Avon is a Self-Employed Business

*Consumer Comment: Avon is what you make it.

*UPDATE Employee: A small business, is a business

*Consumer Suggestion: Advice from an Avon Independent Sales Representative-This is definitely a Representative problem......

*UPDATE Employee: I pay my bills with Avon

*UPDATE Employee: I pay my bills with Avon

*UPDATE Employee: I pay my bills with Avon

*UPDATE Employee: I pay my bills with Avon

*Consumer Comment: Reply from a successful Avon Representative

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: It is not the rep, it's the company!!

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: I Agree that Avon is not for the Reps

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: I Agree that Avon is not for the Reps

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: I Agree that Avon is not for the Reps

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: I Agree that Avon is not for the Reps

*UPDATE Employee: Avon is not a ripoff

*UPDATE Employee: I AGREE- AVON IS A RIP OFF!

*UPDATE Employee: Learn how to run your business!

*UPDATE Employee: This Avon Rep is Right!!!

*UPDATE Employee: AVON helps you build your business.

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT AVON!

*UPDATE Employee: Avon is total rip off

*UPDATE Employee: literally, just started and what you describe is in no way what i have experienced thus far.

*UPDATE Employee: We must've signed up with different companies...

*Consumer Comment: This is not a get rich quick scam

*UPDATE Employee: work YOUR business

*UPDATE Employee: Avon Getting a bad rap

*UPDATE Employee: Your frustrations are understandable, but......

*UPDATE Employee: I'm a current Avon Rep

*UPDATE Employee: Avon does work...if you do

*Consumer Suggestion: Tried and True

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: Avon is no longer a good company!

*Consumer Comment: Avon no longer a business opportunity?

*Consumer Suggestion: I think AVON should CONSIDER my suggestion.

*UPDATE Employee: rip off total rip off

*Author of original report: It's not a Representative Problem

*Consumer Comment: Sounds like a rep problem, not an Avon problem

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AVON misleads its Representatives into thinking that they can earn money selling AVON products. This is a big fat lie. My credit cards are maxed out, and I have nothing to show for it, and I still owe AVON.

I also tried Leadership, and this is the worst scam yet. They tell you that all you need is 5 Reps. to sign up to sell AVON and you're a Unit Leader. Well if you want to see a check from Leadership and keep your Unit Leader title you have to recruit a ton of people and sell $250 yourself every two weeks, and as a Unit sell $1,200 combined total. You need a ton of people because your entire unit must sell $1,200 every two weeks. It never happens, so you never see a check.

I busted my behind finding people, put ads in the paper, advertised on my car, spent money on business cards, banners, etc. I got a bunch of naive people like myself to sign up thinking they were about to make lots of money.

Now that I'm in a leadership role, I've got headaches. Calls out the kazoo from these people I recruited for AVON. The calls are about simple questions and complaints about AVON. My phone is always ringing and I never have any free time. I spend at least 6 hours a day after working a 40 hr job on AVON task when I get home. AVON wants you to attend leadership rallies, district meetings, hold open houses, and much more. I work full-time and I have no time at all to baby-sit over 20 reps. to be sure they place orders and pay their account balances. And I have yet to see a check from Leadership.

You also have to buy kits to sign-up the people, and you pay for them in advance. Why can't AVON perform some of these services? For example, how the people sign-up online, pay the appointment fee, ship them a starter kit and assign them to a leader in their area. Much easier. Lot's of times, I don't feel comfortable going to meet strangers to sign them up for AVON, or inviting them into my home. It also makes not since to have to assemble kits to give to people. AVON has online training available; why not require the new recruit to take the training before their account becomes active. It's just stupid the way this process works.

Besides the pyramid scam to recruit more reps., AVON is always running out of products. They advertise stuff in the catalogs, you order it and take the customs money, and then AVON tells you sorry we ran out. It'll be 4 - 8 weeks before we get more, or we want be getting any more at all.

So now you as the AVON Rep. has to face the angry customer and look foolish and take a lot of back talk from a customer, and refund the money. And you just lost a customer because of this.

Besides this, they offer the Reps. an Internet website for $7.50 bi-weekly where customers can login and place orders. This is a nightmare. The prices on the products don't show correctly, there's no way to invoice the customer and collect payment, and you get people who search the internet looking for these AVON Rep. websites to run scams. They log into, place a big order, and offer to pay by credit card. You take the credit card information and run it through. AVON clears it, then 2 months later, the credit card is reported stolen, the customer is nowhere to be found, and AVON charges the Rep. for the lost. This has happened to me only once, but it was for $900. OUCH!

I did my part; I used the AVON Credit Card processing toll free number to validate the information and the available credit. AVON gave me an authorization number and I ordered the product and delivered it. So now it's my burden to pay for a stolen credit card that they authorized?

So to pay off the $900 charge back, I returned $900 worth of unsold product I had accumulated over the yeas. AVON quickly punishes me for doing this.

AVON suspended my return privileges. I am no longer allowed to return items for instant credit, because of the large amount of items that I returned. Once again I'm kicked in the a** by AVON and out of money again. When I called AVON to ask if there was a way to work out payments for the charge back, I was told put it on my credit card and write if off at Tax time as a business loss. Let's see if that works. But it's my out of pocket loss.

Right after this happened, I get a call from AVON about a customer who has complained that an AVON brochure with my name on it has ended up in his driveway and clogged his snow blower. My response was so, what do you want me to do about it. The AVON care rep. Tells me that I am no longer allowed to distribute AVON brochures in that area and to discontinue the practice of leaving the brochures any where besides the door knob. WHAT!

So let's calculate my losses, AVON is having me train over 20 new recruits for free as a Unit Leader. AVON has gotten $900 out of me for a stolen credit card that they authorized. AVON has suspended my return privileges, and has asked me not to distribute catalogs anymore. So I can't recruit customers, and I can't process returns. But AVON wants me to continue selling product to reach Honor Society and a chance to win a free trip. And they want me to continue recruiting new sales reps. I'm flat broke, tired, and have nothing to show for it. AVON doesn't care.

Do not sell AVON if you are trying to make money. You'll lose more than you make.

Regards,
From an Upset Honor Society AVON Rep.

Veronica
South Euclid, Ohio
U.S.A.

This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 01/26/2006 01:58 PM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/AVON-Products/New-York-New-York-10020/AVON-Products-Fools-Representatives-into-thinking-they-can-earn-Money-Selling-AVON-ripoff-173407. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.

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Updates & Rebuttals

#1 General Comment

Avon Integrity (rebuttal to "Avon Stinks")

AUTHOR: AlyseA - (USA)

It is really too bad you've been mis-informed and mis-led by your Avon associates.

Avon has actually been around for more than 125 years. And is the leader in the beauty and direct selling industry.

Honestly, this is a business. And must be treated as just that. It is unfair to blame anyone for your own irresponsibility. Everyone must be fully responsible for all things in their own life. Including their own success. Weather they have assistance or not. The associates they work with are there to 'guide' & 'support' them to success and re-enforce Avon's general policies, not to do the work for them and tell them things that are not necessarily true. Everyone is different. But it is also true that some (or most) of these associates do not have the integrity and lack the education, experience, & self-motivated interest to do anything other than putting hopes that something and or someone (or something) else will make you successful by just being signed up or doing the work for them. Its a business and its work. The amount of integrity you put into being a 'successful' employee of a company, is the same (if not more) intercity required to run your own business, no matter what the structure.

No offense, but you obviously have not gotten the proper sales tools to run your business (any business.) I myself after being in several Direct Selling companies (including Avon in the last 5.5yrs) any JUST learning that myself.

In my personal experience and research Avon actually has the best value and economically priced products on the market and industry. Including their eldership opportunity. Just because you can (or cannot) sell the products doesn't automatically make you a natural leader either. Leadership skills are different than sales skills. And if you read my previous article that would probably (IF applied) would help in your money management issues. Been there done that too. And also on the leadership note, yes it is fair for each leadership representative to be responsible for recruiting, training, & developing their recruits, just as you do respectively with your clients. YOU made the PERSONAL contact with them. THAT is what Direct Selling is about...

And if you want REAL success... Don't TOSS, "Canvass". Tossing is a form of littering and spam. Canvassing you have DIRECT contact and PERMISSION from the potential client or prospect. 

Avon's policy is to charge back IF you do NOT gain the information completely and follow Avon's CC Processing Policy. If you didn't follow that (especially phone/verbal orders WITHOUT a signature) then you opened yourself up to the possible charge back, because you didn't properly verify the purchaser.

People are only restricted by Avon when they do not follow Policy that was put into place not only to legally protect them, but their representatives.

All in all, a successful business person is one who takes FULL responsibility for ALL their actions (and ALL their NON-actions) and their own education & training.

I think it would be best if people also "shared" (that's what this website is REALLY about and meant to be) experience WITHOUT blaming or pointing fingers (remember when one points a finger, there are at least 3 pointing back to yourself.) 
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#2 General Comment

Veronica - that is horrible. Avon stinks

AUTHOR: Ruth - (U.S.A.)

Veronica - I am from Broadview Heights and I've been selling Avon on the side.  I refuse to attend their meetings.  I do not have the time.  I am also glad I did not fall for the scam of going out and recruiting.  I did not know that they push that amount of sales even after you recruit more help and that you get nothing out of that and that you are expected to train all of them.  That is bogus.

I am also sick and tired of "donating" my time for nothing.  The latest bolognie was when they raised the "quota" to $50.  Not just that, by the time you order brochures and samples, and they hit you with the service fee that you are expected to pay for and not charge your customers, that eats away at any profit you make.

Unless you have forty hours a week to really give to this company, (and most of us do not), the majority do not make any money.  The headquarters is using us so that they can profit big.

I know two Mary Kay representatives and I am seriously thinking of switching.  With Mary Kay, there are no quotas.  You get 50% of whatever you sell.  Yes, there is an initial set up fee for a starter kit; but that starter kit is worth over 4 times the amount of what you pay.  Their overall skin care products are cheaper as well.  Yes, their makeup is more; but if you are only buying for yourself, you are saving 50%.  Mary Kay also has a better reputation and is known to work.  I remember years ago when my sister in law and neice were selling it and how it improved their skin.

I wish you luck.  I for one am going to sell with campaign 21, and after that, I am done with it.  I have the sticker on my car that no-one pays attention to so my husband is going to remove that sticker.

Take care and I wish you well.
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#3 Consumer Comment

Money Mismanagement

AUTHOR: AlyseA - (USA)

This actually sounds like more of a Money Mismanagement, not Avon ripping anyone off. I highly recommend consulting with an Accountant if you are uneducated on how to run any business. Mismanagement of Money is one of the top reasons ANY business at ANY level fails.

First ANY time your receive an order from Avon, you NEVER deliver products to someone with out the exchange of monies. If they don't have the money, then reschedule the delivery appointment. Second, purchases you purchase for your own personal use (were not talking Demonstration, Samples, or Business Tools here...) you MUST treat yourself as one of your customers. Meaning you collect money from yourself to pay your business back for the purchase. Third if you are not accounting savvy or unsure how to manage money in a business, you would highly benefit from opening a separate checking account just for your business. Any accountant would tell you this is a must and IRS even prefers if not requires you to do this. This will help keep your personal finances separate from your business finances, keeping you from spending your business money for personal things, and keeping you on track of what you are investing into your business. Fourth You shouldn't spend what your company isn't making to cover the expenses and liabilities. This I've experienced quite well. I spent thousands of dollars on advertising alone on my Avon business even though my income from it didn't cover it. This became a huge loss in my personal money that I had to invest to cover those expenses over a 5 year period. So while I made President's Club (meaning I sold at least $10,100 each fiscal year) I still lost because all my expenses were much more than what I actually earned. Again a mismanagement of money.

So please before you go knocking a legitimate company, please take responsibility for your lack of education in mismanagement of money.
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#4 REBUTTAL Individual responds

Stupidity

AUTHOR: Jordan - (United States of America)

If you would of done your research ahead of time about this company, I don't think you would of fallen for the scam. Just look at home much that company spends on advertising for more people like yourself. You must of been die hard for cash or desperate. Anyone in there right mind wouldn't fall for the scam Avon has out there. For what they were trying to offer, you shouldn't have to invest any of your money to make out with a profit, but once you are told to invest money in something like that a smart person would run. Go look for a real job, or if you want to start your own business, then do your research next time. If it sounds to good to be true, then 95% of the time it is.
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#5 UPDATE Employee

I just quit today...so angry

AUTHOR: Amandaroo - (United States of America)

When I received my last billing statement from Avon about a month ago, the total amount due was $43 and some change. I paid the full amount before I placed my next order. I sat here waiting, and waiting, and waiting for my newest order to come in....nothing. So I log into my email to see if they sent me any messages to fine that they had. So I open the email and it says that they had received my last payment and that my current order is $20 and some change bringing my total amount due to $33. So I was wondering where on earth that extra charge of $13 is coming from. I log onto the avon rep site and I'm locked out of it. It says my account is inactive And that I need to pay the amount owed of $33.50 before they will let me have my account back. So what? They all of a sudden want me to pay my latest order off BEFORE I even receive it? the only time I know of that they lock you out of your account is when you do not pay past due balances. I PAID my last balance in full and they said they received it so what's with the extra $$ I have to pay them and what's with the account and not receiveing my order?! I've been a rep for a year and a half. I started having problems with them 6 months ago. I wasn't getting any commission, it was costing me almost $20 a month EXTRA just to buy materials and pay for shipping, they would call me and send me letters harassing me, saying that I hadn't paid and they were holding my order but not 10 or 15 minutes later I would contact them about the payment that I KNEW I sent in and they would confirm that they DID indeed receive my payment and not to worry about it. But then they still didn't ship my order on time and if they had my payment, why were they calling me harassing me?

I went from just about everyone I know ordering off me every single campaign, to no one ordering offat all because the orders were coming late and half the time they didn't even have the things my customers were ordering. Last Christmas almost everyone ordered those manicure sets from the catalog. Some people ordered 5 or 6 for stocking stuffers. The order came in 3 days(!!!) before Christmas and they sent a letter saying they couldn't get the manicure sets until February. Well a lot of good those would be since they were CHRISTMAS gifts! When I asked my customers if they still wanted them. None of them did because like I said, they were to be Christmas gifts. So I knocked that price off their total and tried to cancel them....What ends up happening? They send them to me and bill me for them. I was told that I would have a penalty if I sent them all back because there were like 30 of the things. And so I ended up having to pay out of pocket for all of them and got stuck with them all! What on earth am I going to do with 30 manicure sets?! I managed to give a few of them away but no one wanted to buy them! I ended up taking them to our local Goodwill store to get rid of them all.

When they locked me out of the site, they didn't give any way for me to contact them about the situation. None. I could call the number but I'll be put on hold then given the run around as that has happened before. So I found an email on their web site policy page and sent my complaint and "resignation" to that but I know full well they will tell me I have to send it 3 other places before they can "help" me. So I basically told them in the email to shove my recent order up their bums and that I was not going to pay the money they say I need to pay to get my access online back. I would NOT suggest using this company unless you have thousands of customers who will all spend $600 each and every time and will PAY you every time and stay loyal customers when their orders aren't received in a timely manner and be alright with the fact that half the crap they order will never be in stock. But then again, even if you have all that, there is no guarantee that Avon won't screw you over anyways and over charge you for things.

Officially now and ex employee....

Amanda G, Pennsylvania, USA

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#6 UPDATE Employee

What Value Is Placed On Anything That is Free?

AUTHOR: John - (United States of America)

All who have (mis)spoken here need to be ashamed of yourselves.  

Avon is the only company "willing" to let you sign up for such a low cost ($10) without having to invest in any products to sell immediately.

If you went into "debt" in your Avon business, it was poor money management on your part.  Either you didn't collect the customer's money up front (to cover any expenses), or you bought too much for yourself and it cut into your profit.

The catalogs are our "store."  It's all in the presentation.  If you're throwing your store in strange driveways, you're not presenting your business as something of value.

Door hanging is hard work and yes, sometimes risky (twisted my ankle once), but it's not the only way to work your business.  Obviously you didn't sign up with a representative that cared whether you were successful or not, or they would have "shown" you many different ways and places to leave your brochures and how to effectively market yourself and your business (and website, if you elected to use it).

All I see here are empty excuses for personal failures and nothing to do with Avon, the company.

Yes, there are some challenges with back-orders (some items are just HOT sellers and Avon, like so many other companies, under-bought.  It happens when you pre-purchase items).  There are even some issues with the delivery of our products.  Funny, though.  Avon doesn't deliver these items personally.  They use outside carriers, like UPS and Dynamex.  Boxes get crushed.  Sometimes orders even get seperated.  Have we all not fallen short from time to time?

I think the important thing being missed here is that we, as Avon representatives, are the owners of our own Home-Based business.  That means we have to be professional, and we have to stop making excuses.  

If you lose a customer because Avon didn't ship an item due to back-ordering, then "you" failed.  Not Avon.  You could have easily notified your customer in advance by checking "Product Availability" and seeing that the item was a potential short-ship or not available any longer.  You could have told the customer how everyone wanted that same product and Avon will graciously be ordering more to fill their order.  Or, that the product they ordered was a "limited-quantity" order and that you'd be happy to give them a credit towards another wonderful product of equal or lesser value...

Free?  Are you serious?  It was $10 bucks!  So you want Avon, who is paying millions of dollars to advertise on television for our sales success, to also provide you with a free website, free business cards, free start up kit ... what next?  Free child care and office space?

Let's see.  What did you get for that $10?  10 catalogs for your first order.  10 catalogs for your second order.  FREE training.  FREE access to a great online tool (the rep website where you place your order, take the free training, commune with other reps, print and save tools and resources for your sales success ... free mentorship, free personal training (however, not mandatory) at the meetings held by your DSM every month or so ... Wow!  And for only $10 bucks!

Leadership is for "leaders."  Obviously you missed that part.  Leaders ... lead!  To lead, you teach, mentor, demonstrate, and hold their hand if you have to in the beginning.  But then you empower them to do it on their own.  "What do you want me to do for you that you are not willing to do on your own?"  The tools are there.  Teach them how to use them and then let them fly.  Will they fall?  Probably, but you give them a hand, not become their crutch.

I've never worked for a company, before Avon, that actually acknowledged me.  Avon has paid my way to the Bahamas FOUR times (cruise ship).  I've earned several of the bonus incentives ($2500 and $5000 not too long ago) and just a few days ago got my new Apple iPod (with camera) as an incentive!  No.  My last employer only gave me a stupid baseball cap and a pin.  

I'm sorry you feel it necessary to share all your misguided failures here before the world, but I'm ashamed for you to have dragged Avon's good name through the mud the way you and the rest of these people have done.

I actually work my business.  It's my bread and butter.  My home is paid for.  My child is going through private schooling.  My checks are over $2000 every two weeks.  I work with my team and share with them what I have done, then I take them out and show them how I do what I do in and around their neighborhood.  

"You will get all you want in life if you help enough other people get what they want."
I firmly believe that.  Thank you, Zig Ziglar, for your inspirations.

It's a good thing you have another job.  Avon doesn't need representatives like you.  Pay your debt and get out.  Find something that makes you happy (I can't even fathom what that could be).

For anyone who was thinking of starting an Avon business, please don't take the things said here to heart.  You can actually make a good profit in this business "if" you're willing to work.  If you're full of excuses, this isn't the place for you.  If you're looking for a FREE ride, this isn't it, but it's the most affordable, lucrative business you will find.

The most valuable piece of information I can give you is this ... "if" you choose this business, don't just sign up with the first Avon rep that comes along.  Research and find out who the leaders are in your community.  Talk with them.  If they're positive people who enjoy their business, sign up with them.  If they sound like these people complaining ... RUN!

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#7 General Comment

Avon Is Not a Pyramid Scam

AUTHOR: 08Ellen - (United States of America)

I'm glad to see successful Avon representatives clarify what is called Avon pyramid scam.  Anyone who sells has absolutely no future unless she/he  has other people working on the same Team. Your customers move away, lose jobs, die or lose interest. If you do not have some kind of over-ride or royalty with team cooporation, you will spend your entire cosmetic career knocking on doors one-at-a-time and going nowhere. I wouldn't even consider selling a cosmetic product that didn't offer the chance to build my future with a viable downline.  If someone gives you a large order; you collect half the cost of that order or you do not place the order with Avon.  Yes, the Avon District Managers are a nasty business. I could write a book and did. Women need to learn how to partner and co-op, co-buy and share costs and shipping. If anyone wants training contact me. 20 years "top producer in the nation"  and I publish a newsletter and give excellent make-up artist classes (((ROR redacted))) You absolutely can make a living selling Avon. A very good one...just get educated 


 

CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.
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#8 Consumer Comment

Not as Easy as they say

AUTHOR: Vpr - (United States of America)

Last year I started selling Avon. I had a lot of customers with lots of orders. This all ended when several items did not show. They were out of stock and kept telling me that they will be sent with the next order until, 3 campaigns later, they said the products weren't available and had no idea when they will be in. I lost several customers and had to refund their money plus tax. I was mislead into thinking that all my orders would have a huge profit. First few campaigns I earned half of what I sold, then after that, everything went down hill. This past Christmas, about $200 worth of stuff was ordered by one of customers, one of a few that is sticking with me. I was happy until Avon sent me an email informing me that lots of my customers' stuff was completely out of stock and won't be available at all. So the one with the $200 order dropped down to around $50. Several other of my customers had the same problem. They ordered items but Avon ran out.

I dislike how they hold orders and refuse to ship them until the previous balance is paid. Orders go in every two weeks and I keep asking if there is a way that I can pay them as I continue selling Avon but they keep saying that it goes against the rules and its hard to get ahold of anyone within the department they reference. Even when I get all the money from my customers, there doesn't even seem to be enough left to cover the remaining balance. I had to overdraw my account twice just to keep my orders from getting put on hold and to keep what customers I have left. To top it off I am working in vacuum where everywhere you turn, some one is selling Avon in my area. Its difficult to sell when everyone is selling the same thing.

I've read the success stories and noted the locations. I have yet to come across a story of an individual making it big in my area. Avon does their part to prepare you for selling but little to no information is available on how the work within a vacuum environment.

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#9 Consumer Comment

Not making money with AVON?

AUTHOR: Sassie - (U.S.A.)

Avon has been providing a good sound income for people for many years. The reason you cannot make money with Avon is 1. Your not selling, or your sense of the almighty dollar is managed improperly.
I have sold Avon for 30+ years with no issues what so ever.
9 times out of ten complaints to or about selling Avon leads right back to the sales person.
1. Take your orders.
2. send them in.
3. deliver and collect payment.
4. PAY AVON YOUR COSTS!

Simple as that!
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#10 Consumer Suggestion

Learn what a pyramid scheme is before throwing the term around. Avon is Not a pyramid..and you'll learn why.

AUTHOR: Brenda - (Canada)

Don't worry, a lot of people get all mixed up with the term. Just so you know, I am not a rep of Avon, I do like their products and I am glad that they are competitively priced, I haven't bought in a couple of years though.

I do have a scary story of what happened with my brother when he joined a REAL pyramid.

It kind of bugs me when people throw the term "pyramid scheme" around without even knowing what they are saying. The way it's been used around here would mean that just about everything in your life would be a pyramid, including your jobs (since you were "recruited" by someone who interviewed you, and there is a boss getting paid more than you and he's at the top of the pyramid", and dang it, you had to purchase that car and the gas and your lunch just to go to work and earn a check. Sounds silly, but it's the same thing as most people are saying on these message boards, calling something a pyramid when it actually isn't.

It's time for you to get educated. For one, pyramid schemes started off being just exchanging money, there were no products involved. Now all over the internet those schemes are hiding behind cheap products thrown together like ebooks, reports, and even some junk software, and they usually have a very high cost to "get in".

Oh my gosh, I remember back in the early 80's. My brother got approached by someone selling him a "spot" for $1000. I said, "a spot on what?" Then he pulled out this chart, yep, with a pyramid drawing. He was all excited as he told me how he was going to move up and make all this money, he was so naive. Then he tried to get me to buy a "spot". I didn't. Looking back, the internet wasn't really around much at that time. This guy got him face to face. Anyway, my brother got ripped off, never made a dime, lost $1000, and there were NO PRODUCTS involved.

-----------------------
Here is some info which I received from the DSA (Direct Sellers Association):

How to tell the difference between a legitimate business and a disguised pyramid scheme

Pyramid schemes seek to make money from you (and quickly). Multilevel marketing companies seek to make money with you as you build your business (and theirs) selling consumer products. Before you sign up with a company, investigate carefully. A good way to begin is to ask yourself these three questions:

1. How much are you required to pay to become a distributor?
If the startup cost is substantial, be careful! The start-up fee in multilevel companies is generally small (usually for a sales kit sold at or below company cost). These companies want to make it easy and inexpensive for you to start selling. Pyramid schemes, on the other hand, make nearly all of their profit on signing up new recruits. Therefore, the cost to become a distributor is usually high. CAUTION: PYRAMIDS OFTEN DISGUISE ENTRY FEES AS PART OF THE PRICE CHARGED FOR REQUIRED PURCHASES OF TRAINING, COMPUTER SERVICES, PRODUCT INVENTORY, etc. These purchases may not even be expensive or "required," but there will be considerable pressure to "take full advantage of the opportunity."

2. Will the company buy back unsold inventory?
IF YOU COULD BE STUCK WITH UNSOLD INVENTORY, BEWARE! Legitimate companies which require inventory purchases will usually "buy back" unsold products if you decide to quit the business. Some state laws and the DSA Code of Ethics require buy-backs for at least 90% of your original cost.

{MY INSERTED COMMENT: (notice they said "some state laws". My one company that I am with does buy back items, while another one I am with does not and I understand why. It is up to me to run my business or get rid of products if I drop out with them because they are of a personal nature. This is just my opinion, and that is just business.)}

3. Are the company's products sold to consumers?
IF THE ANSWER IS NO (OR NOT MANY), STAY AWAY! This is a key element. Multilevel marketing (like other methods of retailing) depends on selling to consumers and establishing a market. This requires quality products, competitively priced. Pyramid schemes, on the other hand, are not concerned with sales to end users of the product.

---------------------------

O.K, now you get the picture. I can see where people get confused, but you are crossing the line when you throw around the term Pyramid Scheme without knowing what you are talking about. Plus, it kinda makes ya look silly (don't worry, you are not alone if you did it).

You did the right thing by coming to THIS website and voicing your concerns though. I love this site and learn so much from every one of you. You are also helping others why voicing your opinions. It is also a good idea to visit www.dsa.org. Here's Why:

The Direct Selling Association (DSA) is the national trade association of the leading firms that manufacture and distribute goods and services sold directly to consumers. More than 200 companies are members of the association, including many well-known brand names.

The Association's mission is "To protect, serve and promote the effectiveness of member companies and the independent business people they represent. To ensure that the marketing by member companies of products and/or the direct sales opportunity is conducted with the highest level of business ethics and service to consumers."

The cornerstone of the Association's commitment to ethical business practices and consumer service is its Code of Ethics. Every member company pledges to abide by the Code's standards and procedures as a condition of admission and continuing membership in the Association.

-----

I think by visiting ripoffreport.com and dsa.org, you will be WELL protected and educated. If you have any questions about legit work at home ideas, problems, or just want a friendly ear and some advice, you can contact me by visiting my blog.

Coach Brenda Wagner
www.freshmoneymakingideas.blogspot.com
Respond to this report!
What's this?

#11 Consumer Suggestion

Learn what a pyramid scheme is before throwing the term around. Avon is Not a pyramid..and you'll learn why.

AUTHOR: Brenda - (Canada)

Don't worry, a lot of people get all mixed up with the term. Just so you know, I am not a rep of Avon, I do like their products and I am glad that they are competitively priced, I haven't bought in a couple of years though.

I do have a scary story of what happened with my brother when he joined a REAL pyramid.

It kind of bugs me when people throw the term "pyramid scheme" around without even knowing what they are saying. The way it's been used around here would mean that just about everything in your life would be a pyramid, including your jobs (since you were "recruited" by someone who interviewed you, and there is a boss getting paid more than you and he's at the top of the pyramid", and dang it, you had to purchase that car and the gas and your lunch just to go to work and earn a check. Sounds silly, but it's the same thing as most people are saying on these message boards, calling something a pyramid when it actually isn't.

It's time for you to get educated. For one, pyramid schemes started off being just exchanging money, there were no products involved. Now all over the internet those schemes are hiding behind cheap products thrown together like ebooks, reports, and even some junk software, and they usually have a very high cost to "get in".

Oh my gosh, I remember back in the early 80's. My brother got approached by someone selling him a "spot" for $1000. I said, "a spot on what?" Then he pulled out this chart, yep, with a pyramid drawing. He was all excited as he told me how he was going to move up and make all this money, he was so naive. Then he tried to get me to buy a "spot". I didn't. Looking back, the internet wasn't really around much at that time. This guy got him face to face. Anyway, my brother got ripped off, never made a dime, lost $1000, and there were NO PRODUCTS involved.

-----------------------
Here is some info which I received from the DSA (Direct Sellers Association):

How to tell the difference between a legitimate business and a disguised pyramid scheme

Pyramid schemes seek to make money from you (and quickly). Multilevel marketing companies seek to make money with you as you build your business (and theirs) selling consumer products. Before you sign up with a company, investigate carefully. A good way to begin is to ask yourself these three questions:

1. How much are you required to pay to become a distributor?
If the startup cost is substantial, be careful! The start-up fee in multilevel companies is generally small (usually for a sales kit sold at or below company cost). These companies want to make it easy and inexpensive for you to start selling. Pyramid schemes, on the other hand, make nearly all of their profit on signing up new recruits. Therefore, the cost to become a distributor is usually high. CAUTION: PYRAMIDS OFTEN DISGUISE ENTRY FEES AS PART OF THE PRICE CHARGED FOR REQUIRED PURCHASES OF TRAINING, COMPUTER SERVICES, PRODUCT INVENTORY, etc. These purchases may not even be expensive or "required," but there will be considerable pressure to "take full advantage of the opportunity."

2. Will the company buy back unsold inventory?
IF YOU COULD BE STUCK WITH UNSOLD INVENTORY, BEWARE! Legitimate companies which require inventory purchases will usually "buy back" unsold products if you decide to quit the business. Some state laws and the DSA Code of Ethics require buy-backs for at least 90% of your original cost.

{MY INSERTED COMMENT: (notice they said "some state laws". My one company that I am with does buy back items, while another one I am with does not and I understand why. It is up to me to run my business or get rid of products if I drop out with them because they are of a personal nature. This is just my opinion, and that is just business.)}

3. Are the company's products sold to consumers?
IF THE ANSWER IS NO (OR NOT MANY), STAY AWAY! This is a key element. Multilevel marketing (like other methods of retailing) depends on selling to consumers and establishing a market. This requires quality products, competitively priced. Pyramid schemes, on the other hand, are not concerned with sales to end users of the product.

---------------------------

O.K, now you get the picture. I can see where people get confused, but you are crossing the line when you throw around the term Pyramid Scheme without knowing what you are talking about. Plus, it kinda makes ya look silly (don't worry, you are not alone if you did it).

You did the right thing by coming to THIS website and voicing your concerns though. I love this site and learn so much from every one of you. You are also helping others why voicing your opinions. It is also a good idea to visit www.dsa.org. Here's Why:

The Direct Selling Association (DSA) is the national trade association of the leading firms that manufacture and distribute goods and services sold directly to consumers. More than 200 companies are members of the association, including many well-known brand names.

The Association's mission is "To protect, serve and promote the effectiveness of member companies and the independent business people they represent. To ensure that the marketing by member companies of products and/or the direct sales opportunity is conducted with the highest level of business ethics and service to consumers."

The cornerstone of the Association's commitment to ethical business practices and consumer service is its Code of Ethics. Every member company pledges to abide by the Code's standards and procedures as a condition of admission and continuing membership in the Association.

-----

I think by visiting ripoffreport.com and dsa.org, you will be WELL protected and educated. If you have any questions about legit work at home ideas, problems, or just want a friendly ear and some advice, you can contact me by visiting my blog.

Coach Brenda Wagner
www.freshmoneymakingideas.blogspot.com
Respond to this report!
What's this?

#12 Consumer Suggestion

Learn what a pyramid scheme is before throwing the term around. Avon is Not a pyramid..and you'll learn why.

AUTHOR: Brenda - (Canada)

Don't worry, a lot of people get all mixed up with the term. Just so you know, I am not a rep of Avon, I do like their products and I am glad that they are competitively priced, I haven't bought in a couple of years though.

I do have a scary story of what happened with my brother when he joined a REAL pyramid.

It kind of bugs me when people throw the term "pyramid scheme" around without even knowing what they are saying. The way it's been used around here would mean that just about everything in your life would be a pyramid, including your jobs (since you were "recruited" by someone who interviewed you, and there is a boss getting paid more than you and he's at the top of the pyramid", and dang it, you had to purchase that car and the gas and your lunch just to go to work and earn a check. Sounds silly, but it's the same thing as most people are saying on these message boards, calling something a pyramid when it actually isn't.

It's time for you to get educated. For one, pyramid schemes started off being just exchanging money, there were no products involved. Now all over the internet those schemes are hiding behind cheap products thrown together like ebooks, reports, and even some junk software, and they usually have a very high cost to "get in".

Oh my gosh, I remember back in the early 80's. My brother got approached by someone selling him a "spot" for $1000. I said, "a spot on what?" Then he pulled out this chart, yep, with a pyramid drawing. He was all excited as he told me how he was going to move up and make all this money, he was so naive. Then he tried to get me to buy a "spot". I didn't. Looking back, the internet wasn't really around much at that time. This guy got him face to face. Anyway, my brother got ripped off, never made a dime, lost $1000, and there were NO PRODUCTS involved.

-----------------------
Here is some info which I received from the DSA (Direct Sellers Association):

How to tell the difference between a legitimate business and a disguised pyramid scheme

Pyramid schemes seek to make money from you (and quickly). Multilevel marketing companies seek to make money with you as you build your business (and theirs) selling consumer products. Before you sign up with a company, investigate carefully. A good way to begin is to ask yourself these three questions:

1. How much are you required to pay to become a distributor?
If the startup cost is substantial, be careful! The start-up fee in multilevel companies is generally small (usually for a sales kit sold at or below company cost). These companies want to make it easy and inexpensive for you to start selling. Pyramid schemes, on the other hand, make nearly all of their profit on signing up new recruits. Therefore, the cost to become a distributor is usually high. CAUTION: PYRAMIDS OFTEN DISGUISE ENTRY FEES AS PART OF THE PRICE CHARGED FOR REQUIRED PURCHASES OF TRAINING, COMPUTER SERVICES, PRODUCT INVENTORY, etc. These purchases may not even be expensive or "required," but there will be considerable pressure to "take full advantage of the opportunity."

2. Will the company buy back unsold inventory?
IF YOU COULD BE STUCK WITH UNSOLD INVENTORY, BEWARE! Legitimate companies which require inventory purchases will usually "buy back" unsold products if you decide to quit the business. Some state laws and the DSA Code of Ethics require buy-backs for at least 90% of your original cost.

{MY INSERTED COMMENT: (notice they said "some state laws". My one company that I am with does buy back items, while another one I am with does not and I understand why. It is up to me to run my business or get rid of products if I drop out with them because they are of a personal nature. This is just my opinion, and that is just business.)}

3. Are the company's products sold to consumers?
IF THE ANSWER IS NO (OR NOT MANY), STAY AWAY! This is a key element. Multilevel marketing (like other methods of retailing) depends on selling to consumers and establishing a market. This requires quality products, competitively priced. Pyramid schemes, on the other hand, are not concerned with sales to end users of the product.

---------------------------

O.K, now you get the picture. I can see where people get confused, but you are crossing the line when you throw around the term Pyramid Scheme without knowing what you are talking about. Plus, it kinda makes ya look silly (don't worry, you are not alone if you did it).

You did the right thing by coming to THIS website and voicing your concerns though. I love this site and learn so much from every one of you. You are also helping others why voicing your opinions. It is also a good idea to visit www.dsa.org. Here's Why:

The Direct Selling Association (DSA) is the national trade association of the leading firms that manufacture and distribute goods and services sold directly to consumers. More than 200 companies are members of the association, including many well-known brand names.

The Association's mission is "To protect, serve and promote the effectiveness of member companies and the independent business people they represent. To ensure that the marketing by member companies of products and/or the direct sales opportunity is conducted with the highest level of business ethics and service to consumers."

The cornerstone of the Association's commitment to ethical business practices and consumer service is its Code of Ethics. Every member company pledges to abide by the Code's standards and procedures as a condition of admission and continuing membership in the Association.

-----

I think by visiting ripoffreport.com and dsa.org, you will be WELL protected and educated. If you have any questions about legit work at home ideas, problems, or just want a friendly ear and some advice, you can contact me by visiting my blog.

Coach Brenda Wagner
www.freshmoneymakingideas.blogspot.com
Respond to this report!
What's this?

#13 Consumer Suggestion

Learn what a pyramid scheme is before throwing the term around. Avon is Not a pyramid..and you'll learn why.

AUTHOR: Brenda - (Canada)

Don't worry, a lot of people get all mixed up with the term. Just so you know, I am not a rep of Avon, I do like their products and I am glad that they are competitively priced, I haven't bought in a couple of years though.

I do have a scary story of what happened with my brother when he joined a REAL pyramid.

It kind of bugs me when people throw the term "pyramid scheme" around without even knowing what they are saying. The way it's been used around here would mean that just about everything in your life would be a pyramid, including your jobs (since you were "recruited" by someone who interviewed you, and there is a boss getting paid more than you and he's at the top of the pyramid", and dang it, you had to purchase that car and the gas and your lunch just to go to work and earn a check. Sounds silly, but it's the same thing as most people are saying on these message boards, calling something a pyramid when it actually isn't.

It's time for you to get educated. For one, pyramid schemes started off being just exchanging money, there were no products involved. Now all over the internet those schemes are hiding behind cheap products thrown together like ebooks, reports, and even some junk software, and they usually have a very high cost to "get in".

Oh my gosh, I remember back in the early 80's. My brother got approached by someone selling him a "spot" for $1000. I said, "a spot on what?" Then he pulled out this chart, yep, with a pyramid drawing. He was all excited as he told me how he was going to move up and make all this money, he was so naive. Then he tried to get me to buy a "spot". I didn't. Looking back, the internet wasn't really around much at that time. This guy got him face to face. Anyway, my brother got ripped off, never made a dime, lost $1000, and there were NO PRODUCTS involved.

-----------------------
Here is some info which I received from the DSA (Direct Sellers Association):

How to tell the difference between a legitimate business and a disguised pyramid scheme

Pyramid schemes seek to make money from you (and quickly). Multilevel marketing companies seek to make money with you as you build your business (and theirs) selling consumer products. Before you sign up with a company, investigate carefully. A good way to begin is to ask yourself these three questions:

1. How much are you required to pay to become a distributor?
If the startup cost is substantial, be careful! The start-up fee in multilevel companies is generally small (usually for a sales kit sold at or below company cost). These companies want to make it easy and inexpensive for you to start selling. Pyramid schemes, on the other hand, make nearly all of their profit on signing up new recruits. Therefore, the cost to become a distributor is usually high. CAUTION: PYRAMIDS OFTEN DISGUISE ENTRY FEES AS PART OF THE PRICE CHARGED FOR REQUIRED PURCHASES OF TRAINING, COMPUTER SERVICES, PRODUCT INVENTORY, etc. These purchases may not even be expensive or "required," but there will be considerable pressure to "take full advantage of the opportunity."

2. Will the company buy back unsold inventory?
IF YOU COULD BE STUCK WITH UNSOLD INVENTORY, BEWARE! Legitimate companies which require inventory purchases will usually "buy back" unsold products if you decide to quit the business. Some state laws and the DSA Code of Ethics require buy-backs for at least 90% of your original cost.

{MY INSERTED COMMENT: (notice they said "some state laws". My one company that I am with does buy back items, while another one I am with does not and I understand why. It is up to me to run my business or get rid of products if I drop out with them because they are of a personal nature. This is just my opinion, and that is just business.)}

3. Are the company's products sold to consumers?
IF THE ANSWER IS NO (OR NOT MANY), STAY AWAY! This is a key element. Multilevel marketing (like other methods of retailing) depends on selling to consumers and establishing a market. This requires quality products, competitively priced. Pyramid schemes, on the other hand, are not concerned with sales to end users of the product.

---------------------------

O.K, now you get the picture. I can see where people get confused, but you are crossing the line when you throw around the term Pyramid Scheme without knowing what you are talking about. Plus, it kinda makes ya look silly (don't worry, you are not alone if you did it).

You did the right thing by coming to THIS website and voicing your concerns though. I love this site and learn so much from every one of you. You are also helping others why voicing your opinions. It is also a good idea to visit www.dsa.org. Here's Why:

The Direct Selling Association (DSA) is the national trade association of the leading firms that manufacture and distribute goods and services sold directly to consumers. More than 200 companies are members of the association, including many well-known brand names.

The Association's mission is "To protect, serve and promote the effectiveness of member companies and the independent business people they represent. To ensure that the marketing by member companies of products and/or the direct sales opportunity is conducted with the highest level of business ethics and service to consumers."

The cornerstone of the Association's commitment to ethical business practices and consumer service is its Code of Ethics. Every member company pledges to abide by the Code's standards and procedures as a condition of admission and continuing membership in the Association.

-----

I think by visiting ripoffreport.com and dsa.org, you will be WELL protected and educated. If you have any questions about legit work at home ideas, problems, or just want a friendly ear and some advice, you can contact me by visiting my blog.

Coach Brenda Wagner
www.freshmoneymakingideas.blogspot.com
Respond to this report!
What's this?

#14 UPDATE EX-employee responds

Avon is a Self-Employed Business

AUTHOR: Paulie - (U.S.A.)

Avon is self-employment. You are basically a contractor and can make the business whatever you want. If you cannot think for yourself and need every little question answered for you, and are not an independent professional, then it won't work. Anyone who owns their own business will tell you they spend many hours making their business work. If you are unable to time manage, use commonsense, and figure out things for yourself you will fail. If you are lousy at sales, not willing to extend and expand your business, then you will fail. Like any other business owner, you have to set up your Avon business like a business - just like any other. Create a business plan, set goals, be professional, pay your bills, use commonsense, don't over extend your credit, provide excellent customer service, and last, use commonsense (did I say that already?). Avon is a business, in the business to make money. They are no more concerned about your kids, divorce, personal life, love life, ingrown toenails, or bunions than your employer. They created a company to make money. You do not have to become a leader. You do not have to attend meetings. Their tools are there if you want them to help you increase, expand, and conduct your business. Before entering anything, read the contract, read the fine print. Sit down and write the pros and cons of working for yourself versus working for an employer before signing on the dotted line. When you are in business for yourself, your expenses are you own. You have to invest some money to make money. Don't over buy to sell your products.

While I can sympathize with some of the problems people have had, there are also a lot of problems posted here that were not created by the company but by the actions of the Avon reps themselves. If you are too lazy to walk up to the door of potential customers to hang the bags on the doorknob, then Avon was not for you. If you were having marital problems, then you should have shut down your business just as you would have if you owned a storefront business. Since you treated Avon like it was a hobby, you got out of it what you put into, a lot of nothing. I worked as a sales rep and only stopped when I moved out of the area where I had a regular group of customers. I also knew I wasn't getting any more out of it than I was putting into it. And didn't place any blame on anyone else, but me. I never had a problem with not getting orders on time.

Currently, I sell items on line and would question any unusually large order as legit. I recently had someone or several persons trying a scam me through my on-line website. I did not risk a losd by taking the bite just because I would like to make a sale. I answered all the questions of the individual and refused to complete an order until that individual could provide me additional information (the individual emailed me to ship the order to another address than the one that came through my money processor. When he refused and said he'd rather cancel, I cheerfully refused his money.) I have a clear set of standards that I follow to ensure I don't get ripped off. Who on earth would be buying $900 worth of cosmetics???

Last but certainly foremost - use commonsense.
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#15 Consumer Comment

Avon is what you make it.

AUTHOR: Maryannaf - (U.S.A.)

Avon doesn't promise you money, it doesn't promise you customers. It does not promise you anything. Avon GIVES you the tools you need to take advantage of an opportunity. You are your own boss. You decide your own rules and how to run your business. You are not employed for Avon therefore they don't make you do anything. They try to motivate you to form a down line, which is another opportunity to make more money and expand your business but you do NOT have to do this. You do NOT have to be in leadership. Your business is what you make of it. A red flag should have come up when you were given a $900.00 order. Come on, that is common sense that something was not right. And the idea of throwing the books in the lawn, well again it's your business, you run it but that is not the way I order any representative I know would do it. You have to be willing to put effort into your business and yes you have to deliver books to gain customers. I work a full time job as a paralegal and I do Avon on the side. I have just recently started my own downline. I put effort and time into it. But it doesn't take that much if you are organized and have the right attitude. I love everything about Avon. I love the people I have met the money I have made and the self gratification you get out of starting your own business and watching it grow. I'm sorry your experience was not as great as mine, but most of what you said in your report sounds like issues with yourself and how you ran your business. Not Avon. So before you knock such a big name think about how your email may make you look. Because most of what you said were common sense mistakes on your part. And also Avon does not push, or expect you to do any of the things you said they do. If you pushed yourself to have a downline thats one thing. But if you can't manage a downline leadership is not for you. If you are not willing to help when the phone rings, Avon is not for you. You don't have to answer it each time it rings, that is what voicemail is for. Set hours for yourself for your customers. You have to have rules if it gets out of control. You also have to have a positive attitude which I don't see anywhere in this report. To anyone out there who has ever though about selling Avon, do NOT let this change your mind. YOUR AVON BUSINESS IS WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT AND HOW IT RUNS DEPENDS SOLEY ON YOU! I WOULD RECOMMEND IT TO ANYONE!

A very happy Avon Representative
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#16 UPDATE Employee

A small business, is a business

AUTHOR: D Bosz - (U.S.A.)

I have run stores before for large companys. To succeed you must plan. Nothing is any different with AVon. I have been doing to for about a year now and have done well. I don't over order! and say ITs the Avon's fault. Every company makes mistakes as a rep you hit a bump in the road. What do you do,sell the world your mistake and try to make a profit. In my first year may downline has my downline has paid bills for me (not the big ones yet) but next year. I would do it again if given the choose.
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#17 Consumer Suggestion

Advice from an Avon Independent Sales Representative-This is definitely a Representative problem......

AUTHOR: Mrskehlers - (U.S.A.)

Avon is a reputable and longstanding company and these issues are Representative issues, not Company ones.

I am an Avon Independent Sales Representative. My best-friend's mother was also one for years! I just began my Avon business, and of course I incurred a startup cost. That cost was $10 and I received my first 10 brochures for free! I order 100 brochures each campaign for a total of about $20. So my intial cost was $30...don't we spend more than that on coffee every two weeks anyway? I made more than my intial startup cost in my 1st Campaign and have made at least twice that much in my last 2 campaigns. I only sold products to 4 people in those 3 campaigns.

You MUST treat your Avon business as you would any other job/career. If you put in 20 hours of good hard work (ie: making phone calls, handing out brochures or business cards, and getting customer refferals from friends, family and coworkers, and existing customers) each week, your time will pay off. If you spend those 20 hours a week sitting on your behind doing nothing, you will get paid for doing nothing. EMPLOYERS DO NOT PAY THEIR EMPLOYEES TO SIT ON THEIR BEHINDS AND DO NOTHING......YOU ARE YOUR OWN EMPLOYER AND EMPLOYEE THEREFORE YOU MUST DO THE WORK THEN PAY YOURSELF FOR IT!

AS for the $900 order (and subsequent extravagant orders in other postings) that is absolutely ridiculous that you took those orders in the first place! You should have used common sense when you when took those orders...If the person says in an email or over the phone "I want to order but I dont have a valid credit card OR I want you to ship out of the country OR I dont have an address or phone number to give you" you should really be leery of the order. ESPECIALLY ONE THAT BIG with multiple high-dollar items on it. I request a physical and mailing address and a phone number for each customer I don't personally know, that way if I am in doubt, all I have to do is look it up. I also do not take credit cards from people I don't know unless they order thru my website directly. I have already received 7 emails in 6 weeks that are similar to the ones previously posted about...that is what spam blockers and the DELETE key are for!

By the way, all manufacturers and distributors occasionally run out of products...it happens when the demand overcomes the projected supplies needed....(I worked in the receiving department of a hardware store for 5 years)...IT HAPPENS!

Best wishes to all,

K
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#18 UPDATE Employee

I pay my bills with Avon

AUTHOR: Keliga - (U.S.A.)

I think that you went into Avon thinking it was a get-rich-quick type of thing. It isn't. You have to get out and work to make it work. If you think you can hand out a few books and magically get rich, then no, this isn't the job for you.

I support my kids with Social Security and Avon. Those are the only income I have. I sell Avon full-time, and I pay my house note with Avon. By the end of the 2008/2009 cycle, in just a few short months, I will also be paying my car note with Avon. By Summer, I'll be making even more, and by 2011, I'll be paying all of my bills with Avon. So yes, Avon does work. If it didn't work for you, I'm sorry. But no one told you to max out your credit cards. That was your own choice.

Avon is a great opportunity, and I love my job.
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#19 UPDATE Employee

I pay my bills with Avon

AUTHOR: Keliga - (U.S.A.)

I think that you went into Avon thinking it was a get-rich-quick type of thing. It isn't. You have to get out and work to make it work. If you think you can hand out a few books and magically get rich, then no, this isn't the job for you.

I support my kids with Social Security and Avon. Those are the only income I have. I sell Avon full-time, and I pay my house note with Avon. By the end of the 2008/2009 cycle, in just a few short months, I will also be paying my car note with Avon. By Summer, I'll be making even more, and by 2011, I'll be paying all of my bills with Avon. So yes, Avon does work. If it didn't work for you, I'm sorry. But no one told you to max out your credit cards. That was your own choice.

Avon is a great opportunity, and I love my job.
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#20 UPDATE Employee

I pay my bills with Avon

AUTHOR: Keliga - (U.S.A.)

I think that you went into Avon thinking it was a get-rich-quick type of thing. It isn't. You have to get out and work to make it work. If you think you can hand out a few books and magically get rich, then no, this isn't the job for you.

I support my kids with Social Security and Avon. Those are the only income I have. I sell Avon full-time, and I pay my house note with Avon. By the end of the 2008/2009 cycle, in just a few short months, I will also be paying my car note with Avon. By Summer, I'll be making even more, and by 2011, I'll be paying all of my bills with Avon. So yes, Avon does work. If it didn't work for you, I'm sorry. But no one told you to max out your credit cards. That was your own choice.

Avon is a great opportunity, and I love my job.
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#21 UPDATE Employee

I pay my bills with Avon

AUTHOR: Keliga - (U.S.A.)

I think that you went into Avon thinking it was a get-rich-quick type of thing. It isn't. You have to get out and work to make it work. If you think you can hand out a few books and magically get rich, then no, this isn't the job for you.

I support my kids with Social Security and Avon. Those are the only income I have. I sell Avon full-time, and I pay my house note with Avon. By the end of the 2008/2009 cycle, in just a few short months, I will also be paying my car note with Avon. By Summer, I'll be making even more, and by 2011, I'll be paying all of my bills with Avon. So yes, Avon does work. If it didn't work for you, I'm sorry. But no one told you to max out your credit cards. That was your own choice.

Avon is a great opportunity, and I love my job.
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#22 Consumer Comment

Reply from a successful Avon Representative

AUTHOR: Avonlady - (U.S.A.)

WOW! You sure have a lot to say here, don't you? Unfortunately you are slandering the name of a VERY good and highly reputable company. This is definitely a "Representative issue" NOT an Avon issue, as you have failed to adhere to guidelines, which are clearly cause for your situation.

First of all. Avon protects representatives from chargebacks IF they followed the SIMPLE procedures on the back of the credit card slip (you know... the same instructions where you saw the phone number to call in for authorization?). There are simple steps there, that HAD you have followed them, you would have NEVER been liable for having to pay that $900 because someone paid with a stolen credit card. Simple steps like taking an imprint of the card, and getting the customers signiture on the credit card slip. Had you done that, you would have NEVER been responsible for paying that $900 back. It amazes me actually your lack of accountability for YOUR actions and YOUR choices, that you would actually EXPECT Avon to pay for that chargeback, when YOU failed to follow the procedures required to prevent people from paying with a stolen credit card. I guess you were blinded by greed and decided to "risk it" for the unusually large $900 order, but Avon in no way should be held liable for YOUR greed and risk by not following the simple guidelines that protect against that. Now... because it backfired on you, you want to blame Avon? You have only YOURSELF to blame.

As far as your comments regarding Avon's leadership opportunity being a pyramid scheme... again, that's just more smoke blowing out of your ears because you didn't work hard enough to make it happen for you. I am an Advanced Unit Leader with Avon. I lead a team of close to 100 representatives, and have only been with Avon for a little over a year. My unit sales EACH campaign (EVERY 2 weeks) is close to $10,000! I get a very nice check from Avon for that performance every 2 weeks like clockwork. I also initially titled "Unit Leader" within my FIRST 3 weeks as an Avon Representative. During those 3 weeks, I sponsered 10 Avon Representatives, met ALL of the requirements for Unit Leader and started earning leadership checks from Avon my FIRST month! In addition to that, I also earned SEVERAL hundred dollars in "Fast Start" bonus money that FIRST month.

That accusations you are making here, are simply untrue made by an individual who didn't have enough drive to make her business work (so she blames Avon), and who got caught up with greed, and decided to not follow the procedures for accepting credit cards, and therefore became liable for the chargeback on a stolen credit card because SHE made a CHOICE to disregard the policy to go after getting a big sale. Of course you should be responsible. It's NOT Aon's fault that you through policy out the window and took a credit card over the phone, with no signiture and no imprint of the card. A 120 year old company could not possible be a rip off, or pyramid scheme or whatever else that you want to call it because of your poor choices that YOU made as an individual representative when you were there. A 120 year old company has stood the test of time, and is still around after all of this time because it is a good reputable company.

Sorry to be so long winded here, but people who don't hold themself accountable for their OWN actions and choose to place blame everywhere except for where it rightfully belongs (on themself!) just annoys me to no end. I hope the OP realizes that people can be sued for slander, and I'm sure that a company like Avon can certainly afford an attorney if they wanted to persuit it.

Have a nice day... :D
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#23 UPDATE EX-employee responds

It is not the rep, it's the company!!

AUTHOR: Texasangel - (U.S.A.)

Saying that it's the rep's fault is very unfair. I was a rep for a little while and got out of it as quickly as I could. First of all, there were always several items that were ordered and paid for that were supposedly on back order and were never sent to me. I had a huge order from someone that my husband worked with and she mysteriously wasn't working when he was so were never able to deliver the order to her. I then packed up the items along with some other items that were needing to be returned and sent them all in a big box via FedEx. I know for a fact that the items made it to the company.

However, four years later here I sit without the $600 that they still owe me. About $200 of that were items that were orderd, paid for, and never received and the rest was the big order and a few other items. I did not have the $400 to send to them and it eventually went to collections even though they had the items that were ordered!! I was told by the collection agency that I would have to pay the balance and then take it up with the company. I sent them letters, faxed letters, called them, etc. I did everything but drive to their headquarters and still nothing. My district leader was absolutely no help at all. All she did was offer to let me be a "helper" and get items 20% off. I wasn't in it to spend money, I was in it to MAKE money. Why can't they have an 800-number for the reps to call? Why do the reps have to call a long distance number just to talk to a real person? But then again, getting the real person didn't help either. No one wants to take responsibility for the money and give it back to me! That is a lot of money to lose.
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#24 UPDATE EX-employee responds

I Agree that Avon is not for the Reps

AUTHOR: Consumer - (U.S.A.)

I would like to agree that Avon is not for the reps. I have never worked so hard at making nothing. I was home with the kids for a few years & decided to give it a try. I too have nothing to show for it. I tried the leadership & find it's just another way for Avon to make money & not the rep/learder.

I will never sell again & I will not purchase their crap any longer. Passing the word along. The call centers have all been moved offshore, do you think Avon cared about all the American working class reps they let go to save them some money.

Sue
Fairfield, Cal
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#25 UPDATE EX-employee responds

I Agree that Avon is not for the Reps

AUTHOR: Consumer - (U.S.A.)

I would like to agree that Avon is not for the reps. I have never worked so hard at making nothing. I was home with the kids for a few years & decided to give it a try. I too have nothing to show for it. I tried the leadership & find it's just another way for Avon to make money & not the rep/learder.

I will never sell again & I will not purchase their crap any longer. Passing the word along. The call centers have all been moved offshore, do you think Avon cared about all the American working class reps they let go to save them some money.

Sue
Fairfield, Cal
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#26 UPDATE EX-employee responds

I Agree that Avon is not for the Reps

AUTHOR: Consumer - (U.S.A.)

I would like to agree that Avon is not for the reps. I have never worked so hard at making nothing. I was home with the kids for a few years & decided to give it a try. I too have nothing to show for it. I tried the leadership & find it's just another way for Avon to make money & not the rep/learder.

I will never sell again & I will not purchase their crap any longer. Passing the word along. The call centers have all been moved offshore, do you think Avon cared about all the American working class reps they let go to save them some money.

Sue
Fairfield, Cal
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#27 UPDATE EX-employee responds

I Agree that Avon is not for the Reps

AUTHOR: Consumer - (U.S.A.)

I would like to agree that Avon is not for the reps. I have never worked so hard at making nothing. I was home with the kids for a few years & decided to give it a try. I too have nothing to show for it. I tried the leadership & find it's just another way for Avon to make money & not the rep/learder.

I will never sell again & I will not purchase their crap any longer. Passing the word along. The call centers have all been moved offshore, do you think Avon cared about all the American working class reps they let go to save them some money.

Sue
Fairfield, Cal
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#28 UPDATE Employee

Avon is not a ripoff

AUTHOR: Rach - (U.S.A.)

I have read many of the posts that people wrote with reasons why they think Avon is a ripoff. It is clear to me that the ones that think it is a ripoff are the ones that are trying to cut corners, haven't learned the business, think that Avon 'owes' them, didn't do their own homework, or weren't ready for a road that required more than a little effort. Many people complained that they didn't make any money. Honestly, I can't see how this is possible. The only fees you pay for Avon is a $2.50 order processing fee. The rest includes the order fee (.75), which you split with Avon, and perhaps an order of 10 books ($5.75). If you sell only $42, you will earn 20% which gives you a commission of $8.40, resulting in a profit of 15 cents. Obviously, given this scenario, it is not what most would consider a profitable business.

I won't even comment on the $900 order. That was the original poster's fault, because s/he was not informed on taking ridiculously large orders using a credit card. If you choose to take on a leadership role, then you agree to exchange mentoring skills for an extra 'piece of the pie'. Unfortunately, by taking on the leadership role, it does require you to be a mentor. If you don't have the time for this, then you should not have taken on a leadership role. Yes, Avon requires you to sell $1,200 per campaign to maintain your downline, but if you are a member of HS then your sales must be at least $10,101. Average this out to 26 campaigns and your sales are about $388. With 20 reps in your downline, they each need to sell $41 in order to get to your goal. No, reread my first paragraph, if your reps are only selling $41 per campaign, then perhaps Avon is not the business for them.

The original poster was upset because Avon won't let her distribute brochures. That is incorrect, Avon prefers that their reps not 'toss' them into people's driveways, yards, etc. You most certainly can distribute them, but should do it in a professional manner.

You can still return items to Avon. You just don't get instant credit. Once Avon receives their products THEN you will get credit. No instant credit does not equal no returns allowed.

There are no requirments that you attend any Avon sales meetings, or other functions, no are you required to purchase demos or samples to build your business. You can do this without those purchases.

I've been selling for 7 years and I have never taken a credit card. I've made honor society and have been a member of President's Club. I love selling Avon and because I have chosen to learn the business I am successful at it.
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#29 UPDATE Employee

I AGREE- AVON IS A RIP OFF!

AUTHOR: Theresa - (U.S.A.)

Upon first signing up for AVON- it was made to seem that you didn't have to sell a lot, you would get some type of commission. I was later told by a GM that unless I sell $450 worth of product EVERY campaign, I would NOT see a commission. I wasn't trying to make a living off of AVON, just wanted a little spending cash. But like Veronica- I wound up paying MORE to Avon then anything! You will be fee'd to DEATH!
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#30 UPDATE Employee

Learn how to run your business!

AUTHOR: Avonrocks - (U.S.A.)

"I work for avon now and am about to quit as soon as I pay off some of the products ordered, why do I think avon is a total scam, because I have sold products in more than 300 dollars and yet I haven't gotten one cent of my profit."

Well, I can't seem to understand how your not receiving any profit unless your a compulsive shopper. Avon charges your customers full price in their catalogs. You collect this amount from your customers (a good tip is if you don't know the customers well then collect the amount they owe you before you submit their order and if they can't pay then don't submit what they can't pay for, don't be greedy) you will be charged for up to half of the customer charges. Then once your shipment comes in they give you a week to pay for it. You pay what Avon charges you not the customer so you get to keep the rest. No pay checks to wait for, just instant money! For example when you charge your customer $50.00 for an Avon order you collect that amount before you submit the order to Avon, once you have this money don't spend it untill they receive their purchases, then Avon will charge you $25.00, after the products come in if anything is on back order and your customer decides they don't want it now , this is why you don't spend it untill she receives her order, refund her money to her and cancell the order before its shipped on the next campaign, it is not considered a return if it's not shipped out.

Now, you pay your $25.00 order with your next campaign order which is in two weeks. Since you collected money for the orders in advance you know that their paid for, and were able to cancell unwanted backorders before it shipped to you, and now the charges you owe will be reduced to reflect the cancelled order in time to pay. If you followed these simple steps and you sold $300 you should have pocketed almost $150. Unless, your spending your profits as soon as you get them. That's your problem not Avon's.
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#31 UPDATE Employee

This Avon Rep is Right!!!

AUTHOR: Tiger - (U.S.A.)

I am currently an Avon Rep, and work in the Portland Oregon area. This Rep is right, Avon does make a ton of money from Reps who buy tons of stuff, just to make a sales quota dead line or list for more Kudos. (President's Club etc). Get bigger and bigger discounts or percentage of sales % each campaign.

Avon Reps also need to be careful who gets and reacts to their delivered books. Accidents happen. And if a book is hung on a front door, and act of God, like the wind or someone else coming along and removing book isn't the Avon Reps problem.
Believe me, I have encountered a few seriously demented people on my routes.


Skip buying those dinky boxed samples, insert flyers, Mark books.

Never encourage signing up a Avon Rep under you, that isn't a salesman first. What always gets me, is that idea that 'ANYONE CAN SELL AVON', can anyone sell cars or enumerate? No, so everyone can't sell Avon. It isn't profitable for ME, to sign up people, who aren't going to stick with selling Avon. A good customer, doens't make a good sales person. Reps who are not computer savvy, will not do well selling Avon, period.





My personal opinion is:

1. Let the regular Avon campaign books stand on their own merit. Millions are spent to produce the regular Avon books. This books cost the Avon Rep, about 50 cents a booklet. When I pass out books, I look at it, as if I am giving someone 50 cents of my money--because I am. These books are of the same quality as a high fashion magazine, and have the same kind of alluring power to sell the products within the pages.

2. Skip buying the insert books, the flyer books, the Mark books, these are just a waste of money. Plus, they go against your prices already in your regular campaign book prices. Most of the stuff listed in Out-Let and Last Chance is unavailable, making your customers mad at you, and losing faith in Avon. (the few extras that the company sends me, I put into books going to a beauty salon I service).

3. I personally buy from these "insert" books for my family holiday gifts and Thank You gifts for my good customers, contacts etc. I also buy those Rep discounted bundles for gifts as well, I split them apart, a $10.00 bundle, makes each item $2.00 dollars, but a full sized product to give a good customer or as a Thank You Gift to an apartment manager for letting you hang your books on their doors.

4. Never return a rejected product to the Avon company, that has been returned to you, from a customer that bought it from you. Just keep it, and refund their money or if you have a replace product lying around give that to them. Keep the returned product, you may want to re-sell or re-gift it later.

5. I keep the empty boxes on products that I buy for myself, or given to me in demo etc. Sometimes a customer returns a product they don't like, but they have lost the box. Hopefully, I have an empty box, making it givable to another Avon customer or as a Gift.

6. I never spend more that $100.00 dollars of my own money per campaign. This includes all of my Avon books ordered, demos ordered and personal products ordered. I DON'T CARE HOW GOOD THE SALES PITCH IS! I don't need everything that Avon sells.

7. Don't cover the same areas each campaign. I stagger my books, One campaign goes to businesses in my route, and the next campaign goes to residences. Only people who I deliver to get the current books all the time.

8. With this system, I can cover twice the areas at half the price for regular books.

9. Extend the date of your books, One Avon Rep I know, doesn't evern DATE HER BOOKS! She claimes it doesn't matter. I on the other hand, date my books 6 (SIX) weeks out from the Avon Order In By This Date listed on your chart. This is the last possible date that a campaign book can be ordered from by the Avon Rep.

10. Place your Avon Rep contact infomation ON THE FRONT OF YOUR book, not the back. This really does work. People look at the front of the book all the time. List your phone number in very large print, the population is aging and most are having trouble seeing a phone number. Cover up controversal front page stuff with your information sticker. My most recent offense was covering up Hannah Montana name up on the Campaign 12 Avon Book. This was during the week of the sexy phot shoot she had and all the contraversy surrounding her. Campaign 13 got the sticker over the crotch peak of the lady in her underwear, some Reps, just ripped the 1/2 page off completely.

11. Avon should be associated with being sexy, not sex.


12. I heard a rumor, that Mickey Mouse himself, now owns Avon, INC.


Hope this helps up and coming Avon Reps.
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#32 UPDATE Employee

AVON helps you build your business.

AUTHOR: Boozer11 - (U.S.A.)

I'm sorry but I disagree...Avon is not misleading!

I am a rep. for three years now and I love it! I am a Beauty Advisor, President's Club and a Unit Leader. You can get into Avon just to sell products, but if you want to build your business you have the option to go into Leadership. You will find that most companies will have similar requirements when you are a Unit Leader, such as unit sales goals. The idea of Leadership is not how many recruits you can get, but recruiting women and helping them realize their dreams. This can be done! Yes, it takes alot of hard work sometimes but it's worth it. There are no sales requirements if you are not in Leadership.

Chargebacks will happen with any company that receives a fraudulent charge. It's a commom practice. YI get several orders in my email box a month. And many of them are scams. Think about it, who is going to order 25 or 30 ($200) bottles of perfume? You have to watch these, because this is where you get in trouble. You should never order things on your credit card unless it's your normal order and when your customers pay you, you then turn around and pay it off.

I am also an e-rep. and have never had problems with my sebsite. I conduct business there and my customers are happy. Avon has even offered reps who have one customer a campaign that order from your website and they waive the monthly fee.

Yes, customers complain once in awhile about brochures. They are few and far between though. Think about it, if you got an Avon book stuck in your snowblower, wouldn't you be upset too?

I hate to say it but it seems like you started off on the wrong foot. You have to decide if you want to build a business and work at it or just casually sell products and make a couple of bucks. Of course you can't order more for yourself than you are earning because you will end up paying ifor it.

Return privelages are suspende when the rep has had many and takes advantage. It has happened to me already. You have to wait a litlle while and they reevaluate your account and reinstate your privelages.

I just want people to know that AVON is a great company to join. People like you bash them because you have had a bad experience. It seems to me that you just have bad business sense, but even if you don't know how to run a business, Avon will provide you with the trainiing to learn how to run it. All it takes from you is a little time invested. Even the best business woman works at building her business. AVON has been around for over 100 years and there are several top earners making six figures, I've met one of them!. So, yes it can be done! You have to be dedicated to your business.

When you join, you are not forced to start recruiting. Yes, the subject will come up, but it's your choice. And remember, just because you weren't happy with your DSM that doesn't mean the company is bad. They really stand behind you because they want you to suceed. They give you many tools to work with and fantastic online training courses that are FREE of charge.

So, before you go bashing a reputable company like Avon, you should really look at the situation and ask yourself...Were you hostile from the beginning?
It just sounds to me that you did all the wrong things and ended up getting burned. It's a shame that happened, but people need to know that joining AVON can also be the BEST thing you'll ever do in your life.

I've been in four other direct selling companies and now I would never think of selling anything but AVON! If anyone is interested you can contact me and I will provide you with my website..

Be well!
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#33 UPDATE EX-employee responds

YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT AVON!

AUTHOR: Dr. Kroiejlikc - (U.S.A.)

I just signed up with this bogus company two weeks ago and already I'm out $30.00- with nothing in return.

I was rudly disconnected when I tried to explain to customer service that I had made a promotional purchase which they have no record of! I can see from my billing statement that they had no problem whatsoever taking the money out of my banking account twice! One for $17.54 and another one for $20.80!

AVON sells all this wonderful merchandise but they act like they are good and solid to care for its NEW members!

There's so much to learn and no one to learn it from and that's what bothers me the most. When I called 7866456-0006, all I got was a dead end and no answers. I was also disconnected by this pompus biatch. Her way of helping me was to say, "If you decide to cancel your account tomorrow, you will be refunded your $10.00 appointment fee." WTF???! I want to be refunded for the items that I paid for that they have no record of me ordering!
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#34 UPDATE Employee

Avon is total rip off

AUTHOR: Maily - (U.S.A.)

I work for avon now and am about to quit as soon as I pay off some of the products ordered, why do I think avon is a total scam, because I have sold products in more than 300 dollars and yet I haven't gotten one cent of my profit. I wrote to my district manager and she tells me that I whatever I get after paying off avon is my profit, and I was piss, because everytime I order products for a customer, and when I get the money from them I pay off everything and there's nothing left for me. I thought avon was suppose to take whatever you sold and made out there and mail out a check with your share of the sold profit, but Noooohh, avon doesn't do that crap. I've been with them for three months, sold so many products, and yet I get nothing!!! there totally fake and crap, I'm telling my folks not to deal with those money suckers!
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#35 UPDATE Employee

literally, just started and what you describe is in no way what i have experienced thus far.

AUTHOR: Threenorns - (Canada)

I signed up with AVON through a rep that had set up a table at the local mall. I asked her a few question expecting to hear pie-in-the-sky talk about instant riches. One of my questions was "how much do you net per year?". She didn't refuse outright, just asked if I minded if she didn't disclose an actual dollar amount. She then replied that she has been selling AVON for 17 years as well as working a full-time job. She was glad because her full-time job because cutting back her hours - she was able to offset the loss of income by applying those hours to AVON and by the end of it, she was making more money selling AVON than she was at her full-time job - "but it took me 17 years to get to this point". We made an appointment to meet a week later at the food court and she bought the coffees.

Before she even pulled out her stuff, we talked. I asked questions, she answered. She was loaded with all kinds of amazing advice. One of my concerns was that I'm not "AVON lady" material in appearance. I'm not polished and stylish and feminine - I'm round with frizzy hair, a missing front tooth, and I have all the style and fashion sense of a truck driver coming off a two-week haul ("if it smells clean, it's good"). I asked if there was some style consultant I could go to to figure out how to present a more suitable appearance. She said why waste my money? Instead, she said make sure my clothes, hair, face, and nailsare neat and clean (I do that already). She said my dynamic nature and outgoing character draw a lot of attention away from my appearance (like many ppl have said, she didn't remember me as being big and she didn't remember the purple crocs, which was a bit surprising). If I really feel compelled to do something for my own satisfaction, I should do the following:

start with a moisturizing and cleansing routine - since I'm selling AVON, makes sense to use AVON products, of course.

Once I'm comfortable, start with lipstick. Try different types and colours, learn about them, until I have three I love - one for day/casual wear, one for evening/low light (low light makes pale lips look wierd), and one for less casual occasions. Move on to eyes, then foundation, etc until I have a makeup routine that's right for me.

In the meantime, work on my wardrobe: If you don't love, leave it cause you'll never wear it (my closet can attest to that, all the stuff I bought because I "should've"). Doesn't matter if it's the latest style or any style - it just has to be something *I* like, that *I* feel good wearing, and that *I* think flatters me.

When it comes to samples and such, "Never spend money until you're making money" and even then, I should determine well in advance what I'm prepared to *reinvest* (not "spend", cause you get a return on your investment - you don't just go buying stuff for the sake of buying it). My husband and I kicked the idea around and he feels that fifty to sixty dollars per campaign should be a minimum and then once I start making more of a profit, I should switch to a percentage of the profit (ie, %25 profit goes back into buying brochures, samples, customer appreciation, etc).

That should be easy - I've been at it two days and I have over 200 dollars in sales and I haven't even done anything except go to the laundromat and the convenience store to buy detergent! I'm aware it's not going to be like this every month, that business has a boom and bust cycle, but it is a morale boost to see how ppl brighten when they see my spiffy black shoulder bag with the classy white AVON name embroidered on the side.
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#36 UPDATE Employee

We must've signed up with different companies...

AUTHOR: Stacytheavonlady - (U.S.A.)

Because I don't remember anyone at MY appointment holding a gun to my head to do this!

If you read any business book on the shelves of your local library, you will glean the following information: if want to go into business for yourself, there WILL be a 2-5 year period where you won't turn a profit. If you can't deal with that, you shouldn't run a business for yourself.

If you were to go down and open a shoe store, let's say, there are several disadvantages you'd have that Avon reps don't have to worry about:

1) Support - Uplines, District Managers, Division Managers, the Avon BB's (Lots of love to everyone over there!!!), YAHOO groups, MSN groups, individual rep's HELP Sites, and a customer service number that BECOMES toll-free once you sell a minimum of 10,100 in a YEAR.

2) Overhead - You don't have to pay rent to run your Avon business. The only electricity you need is that which is already on in your house. You can use your home phone instead of adding a line. You don't have to hire, train, pay workman's comp ins., and fire employees to run your store. You don't have to have business insurance, liability, or any other kind of insurance to run your business!

3) Inventory - Every good shoe store needs the same style shoe in a couple of different sizes. With Avon there IS no inventory to keep, except books and bags, and those are optional! You mention in your post you had $900 in inventory just laying around your house. WHY?! This is not the Pink Cadillac company. You have book, customer orders from book, you deliver order, customer pays you money. Where is inventory in that? If I had $900 sitting around my house, I'd be either hitting the pavement to sell it
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#37 Consumer Comment

This is not a get rich quick scam

AUTHOR: Kiarra - (U.S.A.)

First, I want to say that I am currently an AVON Independent Sales Rep. Have been for over 4 years. If you WORK at this business, it will pay off. You are not required to stock up, as other companies require. You are not required to recruit other reps. If you do, you need to help TRAIN them for them to be successful and for you to get a check. That is WHY you get a check, because you trained your reps in your downline.

Leadership is not for everyone. If you had READ your leadership materials, you would have understood all of the work involved in leadership. Yes, you get phone calls all of the time, usually for simple questions. But that is part of being a leader. Apparently you don't have those skills, so leadership was not for you. You talk about requiring reps to take the training, yet it sounds like you didn't get properly trained on leadership. YOU need to be responsible for your reps, not AVON.

Second your $900 returned credit card. AVON has WARNED us that we need to get a signature for all credit card transactions to avoid the situation you're in. If you don't, you run the risk of having the card being a stolen card. A lot of times, the person who reported the card stolen didn't know it was stolen until it was used with you. That's why it sometimes takes 2 months. My husband's card # was stolen and we didn't know it was stolen until it was used. Then we refused the charges. Read your materials.

In all, if you work at your business it will work. Like ANY business, it takes time to build. AVON is not a get rich quick scam and it doesn't produce over night.
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#38 UPDATE Employee

work YOUR business

AUTHOR: Danielle - (U.S.A.)

I am an Avon rep for 1 year now and I hardly spend any time "working" as I have other responsibilities and this is for extra money. I sell a good amount each campaign and carefully watch that i do NOT buy stuff for myself. only necessities (shampoo, deoderant, an occasional mascara, etc) the only thing i have bought to support my business is a sign for my car.

i keep meticulous records of business expenses (mileage, postage, etc) and i still PROFIT about $30-$80 twice a month. so i dont understand how anyone can owe money to AVON?? unless you order so much for yourself that you cant afford to pay for it?? it would be the same if you owned a clothing store or any other store. you cant just take home everything you want everyday or there will never be a profit.

I dont do erep and i have one recruit. you are not forced to do any of those things! your only investment is the $10 to sign up. which my DM paid for me through her ad in the paper! so my investment is ZERO. I have bought myself a file cabinet which can be included in taxes for write offs. i even offer a free gift most of the time and STILL make money! so if you took a $900 order a big red flag should have popped up in your mind telling you it was a scam!
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#39 UPDATE Employee

Avon Getting a bad rap

AUTHOR: Terri - (U.S.A.)

Wow!! In the 70's I sold avon you were given a small area and could not go beyond.

On Jan.18 I rejoined. On Jan 19 I had received two emails both requesting a total of 64 bottles of cologne. Yes there wa a phone number I *67and called I left a message saying I would need payment in full if you are serious about this order and it would have to be in a certified check since the order was so big. And to please e-mail me again if this was acceptable. I am a newbie and I knew this was a scam. I believe that this is a virus that knows when some one signs up.

My opinion of course. One of the reasons I joined again is because I have always loved and used the product. Yes I plaan on going all the way! I can not believe all the wonderful support you get now.In the short time I have been doing this I have signed one other person on and doubled my customers from the first campaign. All of this is happening because even though I work 6 nights a week (graveyardshift) I take an hour a day to go on line and learn how to run my business. Everyone wants a get rich quick scheme but that is a pipe dream You get nothing for nothing. Trust me I have tried other companies for much more start and less support. One well known company has a $5.00 membership that started out as $15.00 You can get a web site for avon that has all the basics for you and your customers have an option of payment. The other comp. offered a web site for $39.00 a month and you had to know how to design it your self. If customers use avons site it is free to you ( and all the training on that site is amazing) the other comp. still charged you no matter how many orders you got. As for paying for samples and such that is an option no one is forcing me. I worked for a local news paper, we tossed into drive ways and we had to bag papers in bad weather. I had to buy the bags to protect "their" papers. I also had to do cold throws into new areas which included buying the bags, doing it on my own time gas and wear on my vehicle. This was part of the job and there was no hourly wage for that. If I wanted my route to grow I had to do it. One house hold product company made you do cold calls and buy their products to demo if you didn't it was hard to get orders. I believe you need to become your own best customer.

You need soaps,perfumes,
deoderant. You can either believe in what you sell or give your money to the local store. look at even the wear house clubs you pay a yearly fee for the honor of buying in bulk I don't hear any one complaining they did that. Have you really checked out what you are buying there? unless it is in bulk there is no real savings.Some people just don't have a clue as to how great of an opportunity avon really is if they complain because of their own bad choices. As for their return policy; How many retail stores will take back a pair of sandals give a full refund for something that was a year old? Try doing that @ walmart they looked at the soles to see how much wear and were reluctant to give me a refund on soles that were falling off on sneakers i had bought a week ago. But Avon had one customer send the sandals back and sent her a check for the full price. Make up go to your local drug store buy a lip stick and then say I want my moey back.I didn't like the color on me.


Avon says no problem. Try to do the same with body wash or deoderant. Another great thing about Avon. I can tell my customers I will check and see if this product had been on sale in the past two campaigns and if it has I can save you even more money. I can offer my customers a discount if they get me out side orders. Stores don't offer you a discount for telling someone where you bought something. I Think some people just expect the world owes them a living. I know Avon is hard but what isn't?? There is so much training and help on Avons site that the only reason I can see for failure is the person themself. Will I make a million tomorrow? No but do I hold all the opportunities in my hand to do so with Avon? HELL YAH. You can sit on your laurrels and cry you don't/can't find a job or you can pound the beat looking for a job. You can sit back and ignore all the help and training offered to you from Avon or you can become a sponge and learn how to build a great business no one can force you. As for the phone calls from down lines. This is your business. You set your business hours. And if your people are calling all hours then you didn't do your job very well as a boss. I would never call my boss at home I would talk to him/her @ work. So where does all the blaim to these complaints really belong? Why is Avon and all of us hard workers taking the blaime and the down fall from their mistakes????

BUT one thing to remmber people as you read this crap. NO ONE is complaining about the product itself. Because Avon (in my humble opinion) has the best products around.

Oh and in the future when I have done all I have learned and I am able to make my first Million. I will have Avon to thank not my job who worked me hard and did not offer me room to grow as Avon did and will!!!!!
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#40 UPDATE Employee

Your frustrations are understandable, but......

AUTHOR: Stubby - (U.S.A.)

Not warranted. You sound as if you were an excellent rep but a bad money manager. No biggie. Happens to all of us at times. But with the average credit card giving a $1500 limit, your report that you "maxed out your credit cards" after only returning $900 worth of AVON sounds like you had other purchases going other than AVON or you were buying too many samples and demos.

Again, it's a mistake we all make from time to time. But to say AVON is a rip-off is saying that AVON made ALL your financial decisions FOR you, which isn't true.

You were a bad money manager. I'll bet you've learned some lessons from it. Start over and try it again with a better plan in mind this time.
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#41 UPDATE Employee

I'm a current Avon Rep

AUTHOR: Annalisa - (U.S.A.)

I have been selling Avon for 3 years now. I also work tons of hours (almost 70 a week) at a full time job. And with a family to take care of on a daily basis, I realize that leadership is not an option for me right now. I have never seen a scheme in anything that Avon does. It is all laid for you in black and white. Avon does not hold a gun to your head and make you buy samples, books, kits, etc. They don't make you attend meetings, rallies, etc. That is YOUR choice.

If you are "frazzled" with your downline calling you all of the time, I think that you should maybe rethink the leadership aspect of the company. New recruits, even older recruits, are going to have a lot of questions, and as their leader, they look to you for guidance. As mentioned before, Avon is what you make of it.

Maybe you don't have sufficient time in your life to be a leadership rep? Maybe you should cut either your full time jobs hours or hand over your downline to someone else? Let me tell you I make far more money PARTTIME! in Avon that I ever made in the company with the pink cadillacs. I went into debt with them and am still paying, but that is because I really didn't work it like I should have and there is not a market for that comapny in my area. I don't run around screaming SCAM! SCAM! Everything should have been told to you upfront - and if you go on the Avon Bulletin Boards, there is a wealth of info there too.

As far as Avon's products not being available, yes I do agree that there are a lot of backordered items that do come up. However, most of those are around Christmas time, especially with the licensed products Avon carries. I am sure you have gone into a regular store and seen that there were products they did not have at the time, and it would be a while before they would get anymore. It happens to the best of businesses. Unforeseen demand, product quality problems, etc. When you talk with your customers and keep them informed, they usually understand. I have not had a customer give up on me because of a product shortage.

Scams - Avon has emailed reps, placed it on the rep site, it is even all over the bulletin boards about the scams. Avon has even taken steps MANY TIMES to go over the steps to take to keep from getting scammed and lose money. Your not following the guidelines or not having suspicions and asking someone, is what caused you to be out of $900, not Avon.

Avon has repeatedly said that you would be charged and responsible for any chargebacks from credit cards. Large orders should be orderd through your website if you are unable to take the card in person, and you should ask for half up front to cover your assets.

Don't give Avon a bad reputation because you had a bad experience with it. There are many other reps that are happy and have careers that are thriving. It is not a scam or a rip off, I think Avon is about one of the most honest companies to work for.
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#42 UPDATE Employee

Avon does work...if you do

AUTHOR: Mj - (U.S.A.)

I sell AVON. Yes, I have to work hard. This is my job. I am lucky in that AVON does the really hard stuff, like create a web site, brochures, offer sales tools, etc. There are certain things you can't do, and all reps know the rules. Example: you can't put your books in mailboxes. Some people like to toss books, others take them door to door and to businesses. So you had to work hard? Did you think the money would just roll in? Is that how you work? Sorry, but the business will work, but you can't sit on your duff and do nothing. I put in a lot of hours on AVON. The first year is the hardest, believe me. But I certainly don't blame AVON if I have a tough time. The blame is mine.
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#43 Consumer Suggestion

Tried and True

AUTHOR: Patricia - (U.S.A.)

I am an Avon Independent Sales Representative and a Unit Leader. It seems to me, and has been stated, that the main failure in these cases was the failure of a DM or Unit Leaders to properly train you to the policies and procedures.

Most of the complaints are based on mistakes made by the individual which a DM or UL should have warned them against. Here are some tried and true rules for any independent sales rep or other business person to live by.

(AVON itself went out of it's way to warn us about the credit card situation. They re-iterated repeatedly what was already laid out as instructions on the back of the coversheet of each and every credit slip) Not only does the authorization number need to be on the slip you send them, but also the customer's signature and an imprint of the card. (Avon even sells to us a credit card imprinter which you do not even *need* to purchase, it is acceptable to place the card under the slip and rub a pen or pencil across the top until an imprint appears.)

With returns you do want to try to sell it to other customers, use the items as demos, add to your next tagsale at cost or let customers who order over a certain amount in a single order pick from them as a free gift and adjust your tax records accordingly. (Using them as demos and customer gifts is only easier. You *can* return anything, and everything. Yes your return credit won't be instant if it excedes a pre-determined percentage of the order it came from. This is to protect against an abuse of the instant credit they offer.)

As for not being able to pay Avon cost because a customer does not pay, it is up to the rep whether or not to request payment up front when a customer orders. But always always always get payment before letting the product exchange hands! This cannot be stressed enough and is always being stressed by Avon.

A few things that can be pointed to to argue the case that Avon is NOT a pyramid scam.

Avon has a 120 year reputation for selling products that many generations of women have sworn by.

All representatives have access to free online training. Even if they do not own their own computer, if there is a public library that does not have internet access free by the hour, I have not heard of it.

All representatives who have been reps for 6 campaigns have access to savings plans, health plans from discount programs all the way up to a complete medical coverage plan provided by Cigna.

They are members of the ARFDS The Association of Fund-Raising Distributors & Suppliers and many representatives run fundraisers for schools and local organizations both tax exempt and taxable. Many more reprentatives contribute to such fundraisers as disaster relief and selling items which Avon gives to the USO for inclusion in care packages to our troops, giving the customer a link to send personalized messages to go along with them. Not to mention their fundraisers and charitable donations for Breast Cancer and Domestic Abuse.

They give leadership reps a full 26 weeks to form a successful team. Then after becoming successful they give you 12 weeks of failing to repeat the success before rolling the team up. Even then they give six months to take a second chance with the same team.

Leadership is not a 'numbers game', it is teaching and supporting. It's not for the impatient, it's not for the already frazzled, but it is rewarding and not as difficult as it has been made out to be here.

With my team I set up meetings at the public library to teach reps how to navigate the site, where to find the info they may need, help them do it themselves. I give extra brochures and instigate an exchange of ideas as well as advise that they keep an eye to the math, keep diligent records, avoid scams and fire bad customers.

Those fly by night natured people that become leadership reps do look at it as a numbers game and pyramid scam. We hope they are few for they are the ones that recruit mindlessly and leave their teams fending for themselves from the start. That's not what Avon intends or wants for Leadership to be about and it is also against it's principals, values and policies specified with the Code of Ethics that is outlined to it's Leadership Representatives.
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#44 UPDATE EX-employee responds

Avon is no longer a good company!

AUTHOR: Melody - (U.S.A.)

I too use to sell Avon and enjoyed it so much. I sold it for several months and made unit leader very fast. It was a great way to meet people in my community and had fun at the parties and meetings.

My problem is the district manager that hired me did not do much training with me at all. I had to go to another lady in my area to help me when I had problems or ran into a situation. She hires people, takes your $10 bucks and goes. She totally expected me to start myself off and when you tried to call her, you midiswell forget it. It was rare!

Another problem is the actual company. The reps on the phone were never any good help to me or any of the others under me.

I dont see how they are still up and running the way they do things. It is rare to find a good district manager that will actually help you when you need it.

I also had a large return that the company refused to take back when I decided to leave the company. So, I am stuck with a bill and stuff I never could sell. I ended up giving most of it away as gifts during the holidays.

I couldnt get help from my manager or the company on this situation, do you think I will pay them back??? Until someone helps me with this problem, they will never see a dime.

UNLESS YOU WANT TO LOOSE MONEY, PLEASE PICK ANOTHER COMPANY TO WORK FOR.
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#45 Consumer Comment

Avon no longer a business opportunity?

AUTHOR: Greg - (U.S.A.)

I have no knowledge of how the Avon business system works, but wanted to comment. Things must have changed a lot over the last 25 years.

I remember "The Avon Lady" when I was in elementary school. Her daughter was in my grade. She was a single mother, and selling Avon was her only work. She raised her children and supported her household by selling Avon products.

Even after I graduated HS, I would see "Avon Sale" and "Avon Open House" signs in her front yard sometimes. I remember my mother telling me about all the free vacations the lady won.

She did not have a fancy home, and her car was a ten year old used car, but for about 15 years at least, "The Avon Lady" earned a living. But, she never tried to recruit anyone else to sell Avon: why would she want to recruit competition? She fiercly protected her 'territory'.

Sorry to see that things have deteriorated as I actually thought Avon was a good respectable company. Sounds like they resorted to modern MLM like everyone else. Times change I guess.
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#46 Consumer Suggestion

I think AVON should CONSIDER my suggestion.

AUTHOR: Roseanne - (U.S.A.)

I'd like to comment on the Avon rip-off. I've tried it for 2.5 months. Built my customer base, sold over $1700.00 in products, but, I do agree that I didn't see any commissions coming in. You end up paying more out of your own pocket to market yourself. I feel that AVON should supply your business for free when you sign up. That way, you know that you'll make sales and see your commissions. Everyone knows that pyramid schemes don't make you any money, unless you really just like to meet people and make no money. Yes, this Avon is not a get rich scheme business, but, it's an unequal business when you think about it.

When I ordered for my customers that called me, I placed the orders, gave them the orders and when Avon fell short in stock, I didn't like the fact that you have to wait another 2-8 weeks to get the product to your customer. Then if they want a refund, you have to pay out of your own pocket to refund them. There is no way you make a profit from AVON, because the money your customers give you for their product goes to AVON, then YOU pay for shipping. What money are you bringing in from the orders you placed for your customers? I don't see any profit. I thought I was doing really good, but, I also wanted to see profit.

So, I wrote it off on my taxes as a business failure. I owe AVON $700 because during Christmas one of my customers ordered from me and didn't pay. I contacted my upline about this. I wanted to return all the products she ordered, but my upline leader told me AVON would frown upon me for returning such a large number of items. So, she told me to try and sell it. I don't think anyone would buy the products this person ordered. I offered the products to my current customers, no one bought.

In fact, my husband ordered from me, paid me and because one customer didn't pay me, Avon would not send out any orders until I paid what this person owed me. I couldn't send any products back because my upline told me to sell it or be kicked off as a representative by AVON. And because I couldn't send these products back for such a large return, because my upline told me to try and sell it instead of returning it. As I see now, I'd still be kicked off as a Representative, until it's paid. I can't even get my husbands money back or product he ordered because of one person not paying me and putting me in debt, and losing my business with AVON. So whether I returned the products or not, I'd still be kicked off the AVON network as a representative.

So, all in all, it's my upline who failed to train me, mentor me and give me step by step help in the situation I was in. I never got the products my husband ordered and I "owe" AVON $700 for one person not paying me. Avon should really crack down on putting a business sign up agreement policy for Leadership Reps as Equal Opportunity Business when signing new Reps up.

Avon should also supply ALL business supplies: Business cards, free flyers and campain brochures for the year, any left over brochures can be traded in for the newer campaigns, Business start-up includes "business in a bag" table, computer, sales materials, $1000.00 of products, free shipping for the Representative and at least 15 consumer buying leads given by the AVON company. Now that's a business. You'd see commissions if it was like this.

I lost money by paying shipping, I lost money by buying more and more business products to market myself, and I lost valuable customers who were repeat customers. If one customer owes funds for products and didn't pay. It shouldn't be the representative's responsibility to hound them down. AVON should take the initiative and responsibility to make a regulation "never order from us again" policy. That way, AVON loses and charges-off the order and the Representative is still a representative for AVON.

Otherwise all those Representative are doing all the dirty work for AVON and Avon takes no responsibilty for upaid consumers. It's not fair that AVON gets all the credit for making the sales.

I would only do AVON again if they changed their regulations and policys and changed their start-up business cost to make if more realistic. Otherwise, I wouldn't sign back up.

So, AVON and AVON/mark. Representatives, if you ever read this.... MAKE AVON CONSIDER offering more for your representatives and put a stop to the pyramid scheme to instead include these:

Business start-up includes:
Free Business cards
Free Ad-flyers
Free Campain brochures for a year, any left over brochures can be traded in for the newer campaigns (hint-hint, recycling)
"Business in a bag" (table, AVON/Mark. logo table skirt, Free uniform, Dell Lap-top computer, sales materials (planner, organizer, makeup instruction, dvd instruction, etc)
Free $1000.00 of both Avon and mark. products
Free shipping for the Representative
and at least 15 consumer buying leads given by the AVON company

ALL this would be worth over $2600.00 but Avon should offer it at $250.00 start-up fee and an actual employent contract with the Company with still flexible hours for the Representatives with benefits.


Maybe if AVON offered this then I'd do it again. That way everyone is happy. The company, the representative and most importantly the customer.
In fact, I'd love to be the FIRST to try this method if AVON considers my suggestion. I think more people would want to start a business with Avon or Mark. Which means even better sales, a future career for representatives, and a great name for AVON and it's representatives. Instead of disgruntled comments, and bad a rep for the company.
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#47 UPDATE Employee

rip off total rip off

AUTHOR: Gina - (U.S.A.)

I to am a rep for avon and have been for about a year and a half. made a ex return and it took them 3 weeks to investigate why some of my returns were charged back when they did in fact get them. The made a override in there system and then i tried to make yet another ex returns and was also suspended from getting instant credit because my return was more them my order.

i was told my order was on hold and that it would not be sent unless i paid my balance. i have spent and sold thousands in the past and can not believe that they ask me to pay first them get a huge credit once they get my ez returen. that means i would have a 354.00 credit on my account. my last order was only 165.00. totally bogas. I DO NOT WANT A CREDIT

i have since contacted them and told them if i have to wait three weeks for a credit then i will return everything file a complaint with BBB and call my credit card company for charge reversals. i am very very upset with this company and they need to get all there ducks in a row.

we work hard to make this company money and get not respect in return.

NOT HAPPY
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#48 Author of original report

It's not a Representative Problem

AUTHOR: Veronica - (U.S.A.)

Do you just sell AVON for a living? I don't. I work a full-time 40-60 hour job a week. You'd end up homeless depending on AVON to survive.

More power to you if you find the time to walk door to door and hang catalogs. Do you like carrying all those catalogs while walking? Do you feel safe? Also, I don't toss AVON catalogs into the snow, that would be silly. How would the person know it's there? You need more details on the incident before responding.

The Leadership opportunity is a big "Pyramid Game". AVON wants the Leadership rep. to go out and find more people to sell and get them to do the same and so on and so on. The more layers of representatives beneath you, the bigger your Leadership check becomes. My average bi-weekly check is $9.00.

It's a full time job getting new recruits to place orders on time and sell at least $150 bi-weekly to make the unit requirement. Otherwise, you don't see a beneficial income from being in Leadership, just extra work.

District Managers (DSM) are another bad topic. There are only a few that actually do their job well. The others aren't worth going into detail about their poor job performance. Most Reps. in my area just call AVON when they need timely and good assistance.

The credit card issues was a result of a stolen credit card. This is why AVON puts the charges in the Representative's name. In the event there is a charge back months later, it's not out of their pocket. The current AVON credit card processing has no way of determining if a credit card is stolen. Thus I use Pay Pal for all my credit card processing needs. I don't even screw around with the AVON charge slips that you have to mail in and wait 2 weeks for the payment to post to your account. My payment is now instant and verified. And if the card is reported stolen, it's not my problem three months later.

I wish you the best, but for people looking to make money, AVON is not a recommended choice by me.
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#49 Consumer Comment

Sounds like a rep problem, not an Avon problem

AUTHOR: Tracy - (U.S.A.)

Hi. I sell avon myself. Avon does not require anyone to join leadership, to hold open houses, to go to meetings, or anything.

This is a BUSINESS that only requires $10 to start. The decisions you make in YOUR buiness are your decisions.

As for you being scammed, I am sorry to hear that you fell into it. You said that you are or were an e-rep, do you utilize the descussion boards? I won't fall into these traps because I have read about so many people receiving emails with large orders. Let me ask you, did they tell you they were gifts? Was it a ton of frangrence? Did they ask you to ship to Ghanna?

Why didn't you contact your DSM about this large order? Do you generally get orders for $900 from one person?

I don't see this as an Avon rip off but bad Business decisions by a Business owner.

Another thing about the driveway thing. Apparently you are "tossing"? Most people would consider this LITTERING! Yes, go to the door and hang it on the knob. that is why you can get the "what's new" bags with the little hole in the top to hang on the door. Let me tell you, if your avon brochure busted my snowblower, I'd be pissed too. Think before you do. How would you like to find xxx catalogues in your driveway?
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