• Report: #167578

Complaint Review: paypal.com

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  • Submitted: Sun, December 11, 2005
  • Updated: Thu, January 05, 2006

  • Reported By:berryville Arkansas
paypal.com
paypal.com Internet U.S.A.

paypal.com ripoff they Forced me to refund a buyer on Ebay.com Internet

*Consumer Comment: I take offense to that

*Consumer Comment: Recourse against bad sellers

*Consumer Comment: Recourse against bad sellers

*Consumer Comment: Recourse against bad sellers

*Consumer Comment: Recourse against bad sellers

*Consumer Suggestion: ADVICE FOR SELLERS AND BUYERS WHEN DEALING WITH EBAY AND PAYPAL

*Consumer Suggestion: Shipping

*Consumer Comment: Uniform Commercial Code

*Consumer Suggestion: Comment for Larry in Tuscon

*Consumer Comment: Sellers Policies - Paypal needs to be delt with legally for ripping off sellers with thier own refund practices.

*Consumer Comment: Sellers Policies - Paypal needs to be delt with legally for ripping off sellers with thier own refund practices.

*Consumer Comment: Sellers Policies - Paypal needs to be delt with legally for ripping off sellers with thier own refund practices.

*Author of original report: battle is over for me

*Consumer Comment: So that means Sears and Kmart should have the same policies

*Consumer Comment: Ebay and Paypal are the same

*Consumer Comment: Ebay and Paypal are the same

*Consumer Comment: Ebay and Paypal are the same

*Consumer Comment: Ebay and Paypal are the same

*Consumer Suggestion: Paypal is owned by Ebay

*Consumer Suggestion: Insurance and customer service

*REBUTTAL Individual responds: Update to being riped off by paypal

*Consumer Comment: Your responsiblities as a seller

*Consumer Comment: Don't always get a refund

*Consumer Suggestion: Did they refuse insurance

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I Sell on ebay.com and use paypal.com as apament option ....

Had a guy file a case with paypal based on item was damaged in shipping... when the buyer contacted me about it i simply told him no refund no return as listed in item for sale on ebay.com....

My buyer then filed the case with paypal.com it took them about a mounth to simply email me saying that i agreed to pay back the buyer 100% of his loss in return for the item...

I called paypay on the phone they told me the desioin was made i have to pay back the refund.....

and that my terms os sale on ebay.com do not mean anything legal ......

so a word of advise if you buy with paypal and are not happy file the case they will get your money back for any reson.....

Linda
berryville, Arkansas
U.S.A.

This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 12/11/2005 01:58 PM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/paypalcom/internet/paypalcom-ripoff-they-Forced-me-to-refund-a-buyer-on-Ebaycom-Internet-167578. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.

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#1 Consumer Comment

I take offense to that

AUTHOR: Dave - (U.S.A.)

I am NOT "one of those sellers". I have a perfect feedback rating on ebay, and have NEVER had any complaints about shipping or otherwise. I have had 2 items damaged, both were insured, both claims were paid. In the both occurences, I REFUNDED the seller BEFORE I received the insurance, but, AFTER I received proof that the item was damaged when received.

Yes, I accept PayPal. I never had a chargeback, though. But I usually sell classic cars and parts, vs computers, dvds, and such. So, I deal with a different kind of buyer.

I never said I agreed with the OP, she should've gotten verification of the damage, and refunded the buyer. I just pointed out that buyers take a risk. There is no recourse for them, nobody really cares if they received a damaged item or not. Paypal might, or might not, depends on whose handling the case and whether or not they got laid the previous night...
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#2 Consumer Comment

Recourse against bad sellers

AUTHOR: Larry - (U.S.A.)

Dave,

Unfortunately there are many small-timers selling on eBay and other venues who think that they are somehow immune from the laws the rest of us live by. Apparently you are one of those sellers.

As a practical matter it is difficult to enforce compliance with the law against a party on the other side of the country. There are, however, other means for the buyer to protect himself. If you recall, this thread started with a seller's complaint that Paypal refunded the buyer's money because the item was damaged in shipping. Paypal's actions were in compliance with the UCC; the seller's actions were not. I buy only from sellers who accept Paypal or credit cards. If the seller fails to deliver I have a means to recover by disputing the charge.

BTW, Dave, you are the first person I have ever come across who said UPS paid a claim for damage. UPS's standard defense is that the sender did not adequately pack the box to prevent damage, such as the driver backing over the package.
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#3 Consumer Comment

Recourse against bad sellers

AUTHOR: Larry - (U.S.A.)

Dave,

Unfortunately there are many small-timers selling on eBay and other venues who think that they are somehow immune from the laws the rest of us live by. Apparently you are one of those sellers.

As a practical matter it is difficult to enforce compliance with the law against a party on the other side of the country. There are, however, other means for the buyer to protect himself. If you recall, this thread started with a seller's complaint that Paypal refunded the buyer's money because the item was damaged in shipping. Paypal's actions were in compliance with the UCC; the seller's actions were not. I buy only from sellers who accept Paypal or credit cards. If the seller fails to deliver I have a means to recover by disputing the charge.

BTW, Dave, you are the first person I have ever come across who said UPS paid a claim for damage. UPS's standard defense is that the sender did not adequately pack the box to prevent damage, such as the driver backing over the package.
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#4 Consumer Comment

Recourse against bad sellers

AUTHOR: Larry - (U.S.A.)

Dave,

Unfortunately there are many small-timers selling on eBay and other venues who think that they are somehow immune from the laws the rest of us live by. Apparently you are one of those sellers.

As a practical matter it is difficult to enforce compliance with the law against a party on the other side of the country. There are, however, other means for the buyer to protect himself. If you recall, this thread started with a seller's complaint that Paypal refunded the buyer's money because the item was damaged in shipping. Paypal's actions were in compliance with the UCC; the seller's actions were not. I buy only from sellers who accept Paypal or credit cards. If the seller fails to deliver I have a means to recover by disputing the charge.

BTW, Dave, you are the first person I have ever come across who said UPS paid a claim for damage. UPS's standard defense is that the sender did not adequately pack the box to prevent damage, such as the driver backing over the package.
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#5 Consumer Comment

Recourse against bad sellers

AUTHOR: Larry - (U.S.A.)

Dave,

Unfortunately there are many small-timers selling on eBay and other venues who think that they are somehow immune from the laws the rest of us live by. Apparently you are one of those sellers.

As a practical matter it is difficult to enforce compliance with the law against a party on the other side of the country. There are, however, other means for the buyer to protect himself. If you recall, this thread started with a seller's complaint that Paypal refunded the buyer's money because the item was damaged in shipping. Paypal's actions were in compliance with the UCC; the seller's actions were not. I buy only from sellers who accept Paypal or credit cards. If the seller fails to deliver I have a means to recover by disputing the charge.

BTW, Dave, you are the first person I have ever come across who said UPS paid a claim for damage. UPS's standard defense is that the sender did not adequately pack the box to prevent damage, such as the driver backing over the package.
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#6 Consumer Suggestion

ADVICE FOR SELLERS AND BUYERS WHEN DEALING WITH EBAY AND PAYPAL

AUTHOR: James - (U.S.A.)

As a Power Seller on eBay I run across buyers who do this same thing all the time and it always ends the same.... They tie up my funds for 30 days and then are told by Paypal that they have no complaint. It is aggravating and frustrating not to mention time consuming answering the response. I have to go to extreme measures to protect myself from these types of buyers but experience has helped me handle these types of people. The following advise can be used to educate Buyers and help Sellers deal with these situations:

BUYERS:
(1)You have every opprotunity to contact the seller about the item you are bidding on before you bid on an item.

(2) Ask questions of the seller that will help you make an informed decision, ie; shipping cost, availability, shipping times, methods, etc.


(3) If the seller does not respond or is rude then do not deal with them.

(4) COMPLETELY READ THE ITEM DESCRIPTION! This is extremely important. I find that 9 out of the 10 questions I receive from buyers could have been answered if they had read the item description. We have even had buyers bid on items that they should NOT have bid on because they failed to read the TITLE which explained who could and could not bid on the item.

(5) Read the sellers feedback profile. This tells you a lot about the seller. Just because a seller has a couple of Negative Feedbacks does not mean they are a bad seller. If the seller has a high positive feedback number, a rating over 98%+ and just a couple of negatives you are probably dealing with a legitimate seller. We all get "IDIOTS" who leave inappropriate Negatives. If you have questions about a specific feedback comment just contact the seller and ask about it.

(6) NEVER buy from a seller who makes their feedback profile PRIVATE, they have something to hide!

(7) Do your research. Don't agree to purchase an item just because you may not find it somewhere else. There are very few ONE OF A KIND ITEMS and those that are will probably be very expensive and outside the price range of the average eBay buyer.

(8) If you agree to purchase an item it is a contract and you are obligated to complete the transaction. It is not the sellers fault that you failed to read the item description, did not contact them before bidding or that you found it cheaper somewhere else. The only legitimate reasons for filing an eBay or Paypal complaint is the following: (A) Item significately not as described, ie: You ordered a new red fire engine from the seller and they sent you a used purple police car. (B) Item not received, ie; You ordered a red fire engine and it never arrived and the seller cannot provide tracking information. (C) Item damaged. This is a tricky one because you have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the seller knew that they were sending damaged merchandise and that it did not happen in shipping. Most legitimate sellers will offer the option of insurance.

(9) Document everything. Keep all emails that pass between you and the seller. Use eBays mail system for contact as a copy of the email is kept on eBays mail system for 90 days and it can help you with legitimate complaints later.

(10) SHOP SMART! Just because a deal is cheap does not mean it's good. You might pay less for an item that would have cost you a little more from another seller but will you get the same service? That is why your research is important. You might pay a couple of dollors mor from another seller but the level of service you receive might be worth it's weight in gold.

(11) Don't file frivolous complaints against sellers. You would not like it if someone tied up your funds because you failed to SHOP SMART. Don't do it to others.
(12) Be sure to review the sellers return policy details at the bottom of the page eBay is not Wal-Mart! You can not return items just because you changed your mind. Most sales on eBay are final so before you bid make sure you really want the item.

SELLERS:
(1) Protect yourself. Go to the extreme within your listing description to outline everything about the item, your payment and shipping methods, return policy, etc. Do not just rely on eBays listing description. You need to be as concise as possible to protect yourself.

(2) Use HTML to create your listing. It gives your listing a more professional look and allows you to better detail your listing in a mor orderly manner than just using the basic eBay editors tool.

(3) Communicate with your buyers in the shortest time frame possible. Quick, friendly communication instills buyer confidence and lessons buyer complaints.

(4) Document everything! Only communicate with your buyers through eBays mail system and keep copies of ALL communication between you and the buyer. It will help with complaint processes later on.
(5) Never list an item that you do not have in stock or that you are not 100% certain that your supplier can delivee in a timely manner. A lot buyer complaints stem from buyers who have had their items delayed.

(6) Most buyer complaints are from NEW eBayers that do not understand the system. It is sometimes frustrating to deal with these people but your patience and curteosy can possibly help to keep you from Negative Feedback or buyers complaints.

(7) Use the MUTUAL FEEDBACK REMOVAL system if you have received an undeserved negative feedback. No one wants negative feedback and most times all parties involved will agree to MUTUAL REMOVAL.

(8) Use a seal service such as SQUARE TRADE to instill buyer confidence and help with severe dispute mediation.

(9) If you recieve a notification of complaint from Paypal or eBay make sure you send them all documentation and use the Case number in all communications. With Paypal you may need to send several contact forms as each form only allows 1000 charactors. Number each communication and end each one with the tag line "1 of 2 - FURTHER DETAILS FOLLOW"

(10) If using PayPal only ship to a CONFIRMED ADDRESS. It protects you from wrongful chargebacks from buyers. You can set your PayPal prefrences to notify you of Unconfirmed Payments leaving you the option to ACCEPT or DENY payment. Don't deny all unconfirmed addresses. Check payment history and feedback profile to make that decision.

(11) Do Not take bids from people with 0 feedback score or under 90% feedback approval rating unless they contact you first. Use your best judgement. Sometimes making the sale is not worth the hassle.

(12) Always insure the items you are shipping and charge the buyer for that insurance. It gives you a signed receipt from the buyer and eliminates ITEM NOT RECEIVED claims. Delivery confirmation is not enough as they can claim the item was stolen after delivery.

(13) Always be courteous to you buyers. Remeber they are why you sell in the first place. Remember Communication is the key to all successful transactions on eBay.

I hope eBay BUYERS and SELLERS alike have found this information helpful. I could write a book on this subject but I have just touched on the major points. Good luck and Good Bidding!
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#7 Consumer Suggestion

Shipping

AUTHOR: Dave - (U.S.A.)

Larry

You can quote Articles and Revised Statutes all you want, but when reality hits home, the seller is NOT responsible. That is why there are disclaimers in ads. That is why there is insurance. If you live in Arizona, and I ship you a DVD player from Florida, and it arrives broken, just how are you going to force me to refund your money?

It isn't practical. Nobody is going to force me to refund you. I have never had a problem with insurance. I UPS'd a $1200.00 DAT Recorder to a guy, it arrived damaged, I turned in a claim and got a check within 2 weeks. (Which I returned to the buyer of course). No problem.

But, if I didn't refund his money, who is going to make me? It's just not cost effective.
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#8 Consumer Comment

Uniform Commercial Code

AUTHOR: Larry - (U.S.A.)

Dave,

The law governing sales is known as the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), which has been adopted in every state except Louisiana.

In my home state, the UCC is Title 47 of the Arizona Revised Statutes. The specific law covering the seller's obligations regarding shipping is ARS 47-2319. (The exact title and statute number varies from state to state, but the wording is essentially the same.)

Most of us who sell on eBay make the terms FOB at the buyer's destination. That is, we choose the shipping method and carrier (and we pass our expenses on to the buyer). The law states that "the seller must at his own expense and risk transport the goods to that place . . ." That places the obligation to get the goods to the buyer solely on the shoulders of the seller. It does not matter whether the buyer paid for insurance or not; the seller is the one who assumes all the risk. (When I sell on eBay I charge extra for shipping on each sale to cover my losses when the Post Office screws up. I do not buy the shipper's insurance because they always have an excuse to avoid paying claims.)

Just to clarify the situtation with shipping (or maybe not), it is perfectly legal to sell items as is and to refuse refunds PROVIDED THAT THE GOODS GET THERE UNDAMAGED. As stated above, it is the seller who assumes all the risk with regard to shipping. IF you sell a broken TV as is and the buyer is not happy with it after he receives it, it is his tough luck. But if UPS drops the broken TV -- breaking it even more -- or if they lose it entirely, its your tough luck.
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#9 Consumer Suggestion

Comment for Larry in Tuscon

AUTHOR: Dave - (U.S.A.)

Where do you get that 'BY LAW' crap??? If an item is damaged in shipping, it is NOT a law that you have to replace it! If you offered insurance to the customer and they were to cheap to spend the extra $5.00 or so, tough. I sell on ebay too, and always insure the items. Items have been damaged, but the money was refunded by the shippers.

But it's not a LAW. Again, the OP didn't state whether or not she offered insurance.
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#10 Consumer Comment

Sellers Policies - Paypal needs to be delt with legally for ripping off sellers with thier own refund practices.

AUTHOR: Tc - (U.S.A.)

The person who wrote that if the seller always refunded damaged merchandise top the buyer there would no problem.

#1-Ebay is an AUCTION I work for live auction companies and ALL sales are final! No refunds exchanges NOTHING.

If you do not like what you bought re-auction it!
Sellers on ebay or any other online auction are NOT walmart. Sellers can NOT be responsible for what UPS or the postal service does. The buyer should have insurance. Postal insurance is Always an option.

If you purchase something and the ad reads NO refunds. Not responsible for damage. Then you are at fault.

LET THE BUYER BEWARE>

It scald my backside that people defend ebay and paypal and call sellers bad because they wont issue refunds at the drop of a hat.

MOST people on ebay are small sellers.
Paypal has NO RIGHT to tell sellers what refund practices to use. If thats the case ebay needs to make it clear so sellers have the option.
Ebay is supposed to be an auction Not a store.

Paypal needs to be delt with legally for ripping off sellers with thier own refund practices.
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#11 Consumer Comment

Sellers Policies - Paypal needs to be delt with legally for ripping off sellers with thier own refund practices.

AUTHOR: Tc - (U.S.A.)

The person who wrote that if the seller always refunded damaged merchandise top the buyer there would no problem.

#1-Ebay is an AUCTION I work for live auction companies and ALL sales are final! No refunds exchanges NOTHING.

If you do not like what you bought re-auction it!
Sellers on ebay or any other online auction are NOT walmart. Sellers can NOT be responsible for what UPS or the postal service does. The buyer should have insurance. Postal insurance is Always an option.

If you purchase something and the ad reads NO refunds. Not responsible for damage. Then you are at fault.

LET THE BUYER BEWARE>

It scald my backside that people defend ebay and paypal and call sellers bad because they wont issue refunds at the drop of a hat.

MOST people on ebay are small sellers.
Paypal has NO RIGHT to tell sellers what refund practices to use. If thats the case ebay needs to make it clear so sellers have the option.
Ebay is supposed to be an auction Not a store.

Paypal needs to be delt with legally for ripping off sellers with thier own refund practices.
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#12 Consumer Comment

Sellers Policies - Paypal needs to be delt with legally for ripping off sellers with thier own refund practices.

AUTHOR: Tc - (U.S.A.)

The person who wrote that if the seller always refunded damaged merchandise top the buyer there would no problem.

#1-Ebay is an AUCTION I work for live auction companies and ALL sales are final! No refunds exchanges NOTHING.

If you do not like what you bought re-auction it!
Sellers on ebay or any other online auction are NOT walmart. Sellers can NOT be responsible for what UPS or the postal service does. The buyer should have insurance. Postal insurance is Always an option.

If you purchase something and the ad reads NO refunds. Not responsible for damage. Then you are at fault.

LET THE BUYER BEWARE>

It scald my backside that people defend ebay and paypal and call sellers bad because they wont issue refunds at the drop of a hat.

MOST people on ebay are small sellers.
Paypal has NO RIGHT to tell sellers what refund practices to use. If thats the case ebay needs to make it clear so sellers have the option.
Ebay is supposed to be an auction Not a store.

Paypal needs to be delt with legally for ripping off sellers with thier own refund practices.
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#13 Author of original report

battle is over for me

AUTHOR: Linda - (U.S.A.)

the battle is over for my have closed out my paypal acount due to there non professional additude though out my problem with them...
thank all of you for your comments...
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#14 Consumer Comment

So that means Sears and Kmart should have the same policies

AUTHOR: Denny - (U.S.A.)

but they dont.

Sears and kmart are the same company. yet they have vastly different policies in the case of returns/refunds.

Just because a company owns another, doesn't mean that policies are oging to be the same across the board.
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#15 Consumer Comment

Ebay and Paypal are the same

AUTHOR: Jp - (U.S.A.)

Paypal is actually owned by Ebay...so in reality the same company under a different name allowed for the refund.

"Ebay" of course will agree with you because they want to continue to make $$ off of you by continuing to have you sell with them. Doesn't cost the buyer more than the price of the transaction to buy from ebay. So Ebay makes no money from them...so who is Ebay going to side with?

"Paypal" had to agree with the buyer because if they don't the buyer won't use their service to pay for auctions. Thus paypal looses $$ because they charge the recipient for the convience of having Paypal accept the payment. Paypal knows the seller isn't going to pull up stakes and go else where because "reliable" payment sites are few and far between.

Personally I would never bid on ANYONES auction that had NO RETURNS or REFUNDS. That to me says they know they are selling problematic or sub prime merchandise. So yours would be an auction I would 100% avoid.
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#16 Consumer Comment

Ebay and Paypal are the same

AUTHOR: Jp - (U.S.A.)

Paypal is actually owned by Ebay...so in reality the same company under a different name allowed for the refund.

"Ebay" of course will agree with you because they want to continue to make $$ off of you by continuing to have you sell with them. Doesn't cost the buyer more than the price of the transaction to buy from ebay. So Ebay makes no money from them...so who is Ebay going to side with?

"Paypal" had to agree with the buyer because if they don't the buyer won't use their service to pay for auctions. Thus paypal looses $$ because they charge the recipient for the convience of having Paypal accept the payment. Paypal knows the seller isn't going to pull up stakes and go else where because "reliable" payment sites are few and far between.

Personally I would never bid on ANYONES auction that had NO RETURNS or REFUNDS. That to me says they know they are selling problematic or sub prime merchandise. So yours would be an auction I would 100% avoid.
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#17 Consumer Comment

Ebay and Paypal are the same

AUTHOR: Jp - (U.S.A.)

Paypal is actually owned by Ebay...so in reality the same company under a different name allowed for the refund.

"Ebay" of course will agree with you because they want to continue to make $$ off of you by continuing to have you sell with them. Doesn't cost the buyer more than the price of the transaction to buy from ebay. So Ebay makes no money from them...so who is Ebay going to side with?

"Paypal" had to agree with the buyer because if they don't the buyer won't use their service to pay for auctions. Thus paypal looses $$ because they charge the recipient for the convience of having Paypal accept the payment. Paypal knows the seller isn't going to pull up stakes and go else where because "reliable" payment sites are few and far between.

Personally I would never bid on ANYONES auction that had NO RETURNS or REFUNDS. That to me says they know they are selling problematic or sub prime merchandise. So yours would be an auction I would 100% avoid.
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#18 Consumer Comment

Ebay and Paypal are the same

AUTHOR: Jp - (U.S.A.)

Paypal is actually owned by Ebay...so in reality the same company under a different name allowed for the refund.

"Ebay" of course will agree with you because they want to continue to make $$ off of you by continuing to have you sell with them. Doesn't cost the buyer more than the price of the transaction to buy from ebay. So Ebay makes no money from them...so who is Ebay going to side with?

"Paypal" had to agree with the buyer because if they don't the buyer won't use their service to pay for auctions. Thus paypal looses $$ because they charge the recipient for the convience of having Paypal accept the payment. Paypal knows the seller isn't going to pull up stakes and go else where because "reliable" payment sites are few and far between.

Personally I would never bid on ANYONES auction that had NO RETURNS or REFUNDS. That to me says they know they are selling problematic or sub prime merchandise. So yours would be an auction I would 100% avoid.
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#19 Consumer Suggestion

Paypal is owned by Ebay

AUTHOR: Tadd - (U.S.A.)

Since Paypal is owned by Ebay, I have a hard time understanding how they can be so different in the policies.
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#20 Consumer Suggestion

Insurance and customer service

AUTHOR: Annie - (U.S.A.)

I find it interesting that one recurring thread on this forum is the lack of quality customer service, yet no one seems to want to offer it themself when the situation is reversed.

Good customer service includes end delivery in satisfactory condition.

Determine to what level you are willing to absorb loss. Take your chances to that level and require insurance above that level.
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#21 REBUTTAL Individual responds

Update to being riped off by paypal

AUTHOR: Linda - (U.S.A.)

Hi if i am so far in the worng here why is it ebay staff say i am right ? I have been selling on ebay for two years had simalar problem before but at that time did not have paypal ebay backed up my terms of sale telling me i was legal ....

Tryed talking to paypal And They still have not answerd emails ... they seem to say this is all coverd in the rules but They must not be willing to show it in email...

Oh and i recived my item back it has minor cosmedic damage it does not stop the working of the item...

Thanks for the replys , Linda
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#22 Consumer Comment

Your responsiblities as a seller

AUTHOR: Larry - (U.S.A.)

Linda,

By law you are required to refund money for (or replace) items that are damaged in shipping. Your "no refund/no return" policy does not allow you to evade legal responsibility for the arrival of merchandise in good condition. It does not matter whether the buyer opted to buy insurance or not; shipping insurance protects the shipper, not the receiver.

It would have nice if you and the buyer could have worked things out without Paypal getting involved, but your insistence that you are not liable for damaged merchandise left the buyer little alternative. You could have avoided the whole problem by learning what your responsibilities are.

BTW, I also sell on eBay from time to time and have never had a problem like this arise. There have been a few times where things I sold were damaged in shipping and in each case I offered the buyer a refund of everything they paid me.
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#23 Consumer Comment

Don't always get a refund

AUTHOR: David - (U.S.A.)

Paypal will not always force a refund. I won a DVD off of ebay and it arrived damaged. I tried contacting the seller to resolve, but they dragged their feet so I submitted a complaint/refund request to paypal.

No deal. No reason other than 'we are unable to issue a refund in this case.' The buyer did have a ding on their record for the complaint, but nothing else.
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#24 Consumer Suggestion

Did they refuse insurance

AUTHOR: Dave - (U.S.A.)

Whenever I send anything out from Ebay or buy anything, I insist on insurance. This way, stuff like that won't happen.
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