Report: Discover Card
Category: Telemarketers
DISCOVER CARD DISCOVER CARD STALKS FORMER CARD USERS WITH ENDLESS PHONE CALLS AND UNSCRUPULOUS TACTICS TO GET THEM TO RETURN WEST VALLEY CITY UTAH
*Consumer Suggestion ..Rebuttal to K (Phoenix)
Discover Card
Fax:
Garden Grove, California,
U.S.A.
Submitted: 10/14/2003 2:48:46 PM
Modified: 10/12/2004 1:56:51 PM
Paul
GARDEN GROVE, CaliforniaSince I cancelled my DISCOVER card they have not stopped hounding me on the phone!
They repeatedly call me at night asking me to reactivate my card or leave the account open. I have begged them time and time again to quit calling. I have repeatedly told them time and time again I do not want my account open. They have twice reopened my account without my permission. I have told them in WRITING, 'DO NOT REOPEN MY ACCOUNT WITHOUT MY WRITTEN PERMISSION.' They refuse to listen to me.
They cannot even come close to matching what other cards give me and I've told them that. I tell them what I'm getting and they keep begging me to leave my account open 'just in case' I keep telling them that leaving an account open is an invitation for identity theft and any website about protecting your identity will tell you not to keep an open account. just in case. Discover doesn't care and they keep on call. If you are planning to get a DISCOVER CARD account. have an attorney on hand or be ready to write to RIP-OFF REPORT.com.
Paul
GARDEN GROVE, California
U.S.A.
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Updates & Rebuttals:
- Change your address! Dina [10/4/2004 10:05:28 PM]
- Finally, Dina makes a reasonable post! K [10/8/2004 11:38:17 PM]
- Response to Paul (Garden Grove) Request to be placed on a do-not-call list Stuart [10/9/2004 6:25:06 AM]
- Almost 100% accurate K [10/11/2004 7:47:52 PM]
- Oh, I forgot... K [10/11/2004 8:01:36 PM]
- Rebuttal to K (Phoenix) Stuart [10/12/2004 1:23:46 AM]
Change your address!
Call up DIScover and inform them of your new address and phone number:
General Delivery
Hell, MI 48169
(734) 485-7000
When they find they can't contact you, they'll cancel you in a heartbeat. Do inform the credit bureaus of this problem of them not cancelling your card - you are allowed a consumer statement in all 3 bureaus.
Make sure your request for cancellation is in writing, and request a confirmation. Send the request to as many people as possible. Send it via regular mail, return-receipt, and email to as many contacts in Discover as you can. Don't give up! Don't let them win by giving up. If they still refuse, inform them the card was stolen - that usually gets their attention when all else fails.
Good luck to you.
Finally, Dina makes a reasonable post!
I never thought I'd see the day when you would print something reasonable rather than a bunch of 'GRR, GRR, GRR' with no backup.
For once, Dina, you are right on all counts except one. If he reports the account lost, a new account will automatically be set up and he will have to write in to close THAT one.
Paul, I'm sorry to hear you are having these problems. It is no excuse, but what is happening to you is just a matter of 'retention'. All card companies have a retention department, and they DO get sort of pushy. They have to. It is their job. It was never an aspect of the company that I admired or appreciated, as I used to work in the fraud department and had to deal with the consequences of those 'open just in case' accounts.
I agree with Dina. The only way to protect yourself now is to send a registered letter, return receipt requested, so you will have proof we received your request to close the account. Also request that we deny the 'auto reopen' option.
Hope this helps.
Submitted: 10/9/2004 6:25:06 AM
Modified: 10/9/2004 8:18:01 PM
Stuart
North Brunswick, New JerseyU.S.A.
Response to Paul (Garden Grove) Request to be placed on a do-not-call list
It's obvious that you don't want to do any further
business with Discover and you keep getting harassing phone calls from them.
Here's what I'd do:
(1) Request to be placed on a do-not-call list. Not only do you request the telemarketer, also speak with his/her supervisor. Make notes of names, times, dates, etc. on all the calls you
receive.
(2) Last time I checked the law, a company can call you up to one more time. The third phone call and beyond can cost the harassing company up to $11,000 per violation.
(3) If you want to you can register with the federal do-not-call list and your state may have an even better program to register under so you can do both.
(4) Do not accept the dodge that it takes up to
thirty days for the offending company to (get it
into the system). This excuse is baloney. Also
when you're on the federal do-not-call list (last
time I checked), your number is not to be called
for ten years.
(5) The law allows a loophole whereby if you have
a prior relationship with the offending company,
they still can contact you. Of course there must be some cutoff date and I would suggest to check
with the FTC website to see what that is.
I hope this helps.
Almost 100% accurate
Stuart, your response was almost completely accurate.
The real error is your response #4:
(4) Do not accept the dodge that it takes up to
thirty days for the offending company to (get it
into the system). This excuse is baloney. Also
when you're on the federal do-not-call list (last
time I checked), your number is not to be called
for ten years.
It DOES take between 30-45 days to remove someone from our lists. This is because all NON SOLICITATION requests on CURRENT, FORMER, or POTENTIAL (ie: receiving unwanted applications) customers are processed in BATCHES. Depending where we are in the batch cycle, it could take as little as 7 days or as many as 45.
Having said that, here is what I found on the FTC website in regards to existing relationships:
'A telemarketer or seller may call a consumer with whom it has an established business relationship for up to 18 months after the consumer's last purchase, delivery, or payment - even if the consumer's number is on the National Do Not Call Registry. In addition, a company may call a consumer for up to three months after the consumer makes an inquiry or submits an application to the company. And if a consumer has given a company written permission, the company may call even if the consumer's number is on the National Do Not Call Registry.
One caveat: if a consumer asks a company not to call, the company may not call, even if there is an established business relationship. Indeed, a company may not call a consumer - regardless of whether the consumer's number is on the registry - if the consumer has asked to be put on the company's own do not call list. '
So, Paul, I suggest the following:
Forego the phone calls to Discover and send a registered letter, return receipt requested with a copy of the above and a request for Discover to do the following:
A) Confirm by mail we have received your request for the account to be closed and taken off 'AUTO REOPEN' (if this applies) and to be placed on our permanent 'non-solicitation' lists for both phone calls AND mail. The mail cannot be backed up by the 'Do-not-call' registry, but Discover will be able to remove you from mailings upon written request.
B) Advise Discover that you will allow a period of 45 days MAXIMUM for the completion of the steps (I know, I know, we shouldn't be allowed 45 days since we didn't help you sooner, but I have to assume this will be your first contact in writing rather than phoning...and the clock, unfortunately, begins from the first point of contact that you can 'prove'...I don't agree with it, but there it is).
C) Further state that if you receive calls after the 45th calendar day (weekends are included in the 45 day countdown) you will file a complaint with the FTC pursuant to the statement you have copied directly from their website (paste into your letter to Discover the info I listed for you and Stuart above).
Hope this helps.
Oh, I forgot...
Paul, FYI. The FTC website also states in the FAQ section:
'Q: How will the National Do Not Call Registry work?
A: Telemarketers and sellers will be required to search the registry at least every three months and drop from their call lists the phone numbers of consumers who have registered...'
If you registered under the 'do-not-call' list, let's say, two weeks ago, the above would tend to imply that since marketers are required to search the registry only every 3 mos, that the enforceability of complaints reaches to only those offending calls placed 3 months after your initial registry date (since a company that, by coincidence, checked the registry just ONE day before your submission could reasonably state that they were operating w/in federal guidelines and removed you upon their next review of the registry.)
HOWEVER, having said that, if you submit the registered letter mentioned in my previous post, you will have established 'proof' of a timeline. Ever since I've been with Discover we have told customers that our effective timeline for 'donotcall', based on our INTERNAL telemarketing department is 30-45 days. But JUST TO CLARIFY, we also 'outsource' telemarketing to India. The outside contractors are bound (to my knowledge) only by the 3 month timeline established by the federal registry.
Hope this is not confusing and that it helps. The website, if you want to look, is www.ftc.gov/default.aspx
Submitted: 10/12/2004 1:23:46 AM
Modified: 10/12/2004 1:56:51 PM
Stuart
North Brunswick, New JerseyU.S.A.
Rebuttal to K (Phoenix)
A clarification on what K has written:
To quote K:
'It DOES take between 30-45 days to remove someone from our lists. This is because all NON SOLICITATION requests on CURRENT, FORMER, or POTENTIAL (ie: receiving unwanted applications) customers are processed in BATCHES. Depending where we are in the batch cycle, it could take as little as 7 days or as many as 45.'
While Discover Card is taking its sweet time to
remove someone from their calling lists, they may
be liable for penalties of up to $11,000 per phone
call and the FTC won't care about any excuses about how long it'll take Discover Card to remove the number from their list. All the FTC cares about are people getting unsolicited phone calls who are on the do not call lists.
I now am going to excerpt from the FTC website which is: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/tsrcomp.htm
'Protecting Consumers' Privacy
The Rule prohibits sellers and telemarketers from engaging in certain abusive practices that infringe on a consumer's right to be let alone. The Rule's privacy protections include prohibitions on:
* calling a person whose number is on the National Do Not Call Registry or a person who has asked not to get telemarketing calls from a particular company or charity.
* misusing a Do Not Call list.
* denying or interfering with a person's Do Not Call rights.
* calling outside the permissible hours.
* abandoning an outbound telephone call.
* failing to transmit Caller ID information.
* using threats, intimidation, or profane or obscene language.
* causing any telephone to ring or engaging any person in telephone conversation repeatedly or continuously with intent to annoy, abuse, or harass.'
Another excerpt:
'The Entity-Specific Do Not Call Provision
It is a Rule violation to call any consumer who has asked not to be called again (the “entity-specific Do Not Call" provision). A telemarketer may not call a consumer who previously has asked not to receive any more calls from or on behalf of a particular seller or charitable organization. It also is a Rule violation for a seller who has been asked by a consumer not to call again to cause a telemarketer to call that consumer. Sellers and telemarketers are responsible for maintaining their individual Do Not Call lists of consumers who have asked not to receive calls placed by, or on behalf of, a particular seller. Calling a consumer who has asked not to be called potentially exposes a seller and telemarketer to a civil penalty of $11,000 per violation.'
So while Discover Card is dragging its feet, it can cost them quite a bit of dough, K.
Another excerpt:
'What if a consumer asks a specific division of a corporation not to call? Does a call from a different division violate the Rule? Distinct corporate divisions generally are considered separate sellers under this Rule. Factors relevant to determining whether distinct divisions of a single corporation are treated as separate sellers include whether there is substantial diversity between the operational structure of the divisions and whether the goods or services sold by the divisions are substantially different from each other. If a consumer tells one division of a company not to call again, a distinct corporate division of the same company may make another telemarketing call to that consumer. Nevertheless, a single seller without distinct corporate divisions may not call a consumer who asks not to be called again, even if the seller is offering a different good or service for sale.'
Unfortunately this loophole can allow you to still
get unwanted phone calls from the same company so
you may have to request more than one time to get
your number off the calling list.
Another excerpt (the Safe Harbor rule):
'Do Not Call Safe Harbor
If a seller or telemarketer can establish that as part of its routine business practice, it meets the following requirements, it will not be subject to civil penalties or sanctions for erroneously calling a consumer who has asked not to be called, or for calling a number on the National Registry:
* the seller or telemarketer has established and implemented written procedures to honor consumers' requests that they not be called.
* the seller or telemarketer has trained its personnel, and any entity assisting in its compliance, in these procedures.
* the seller, telemarketer, or someone else acting on behalf of the seller or charitable organization has maintained and recorded an entity-specific Do Not Call list.
* the seller or telemarketer uses, and maintains records documenting, a process to prevent calls to any telephone number on an entity-specific Do Not Call list or the National Do Not Call Registry. This, provided that the latter process involves using a version of the National Registry from the FTC no more than three months before the date any call is made.
* the seller, telemarketer, or someone else acting on behalf of the seller or charitable organization monitors and enforces compliance with the entity's written Do Not Call procedures.
* the call is a result of error.
What happens if a consumer is called after he or she has asked not to be called? If a seller or telemarketer calls a consumer who has:
* placed his number on the National Registry
* not given written and signed permission to call
* either no established business relationship with the seller, or has asked to get no more calls from or on behalf of that seller . . .
the seller and telemarketer may be liable for a Rule violation. If an investigation reveals that neither the seller nor the telemarketer had written Do Not Call procedures in place, both will be liable for the Rule violation. If the seller had written Do Not Call procedures, but the telemarketer ignored them, the telemarketer will be liable for the Rule violation; the seller also might be liable, unless it could demonstrate that it monitored and enforced Do Not Call compliance and otherwise implemented its written procedures. Ultimately, a seller is responsible for keeping a current entityspecific Do Not Call list, either through a telemarketing service it hires or its own efforts.
What does “error" mean? If a seller or telemarketer has and implements written Do Not Call procedures, it will not be liable for a Rule violation if a subsequent call is the result of error. But it may be subject to an enforcement investigation, which would focus on the effectiveness of the procedures in place, how they are implemented, and if all personnel are trained in Do Not Call procedures. If there is a high incidence of “errors," it may be determined that the procedures are inadequate to comply with the Rule's Do Not Call requirements, the safe harbor is not fulfilled, and the calls violate the Rule. On the other hand, if there is a low incidence of “errors," there may not be a Rule violation. The determination of whether an excusable “error" occurs is based on the facts of each case. A safe rule of thumb to ensure that adequate Do Not Call procedures are implemented is to test periodically for quality control and effectiveness.'
This make it clear that a telemarketing firm may
be liable for penalties for making subsequent calls to a consumer on the do-not-call list if the
FTC determines that the offending company isn't in compliance with the Safe Harbor Rule.
Another excerpt:
' Calling Time Restrictions
Unless a telemarketer has a person's prior consent to do otherwise, it is violation of the Rule to make outbound telemarketing calls to the person's home outside the hours of 8 a.m. and 9 p.m.'
Paul, it's clear that when you're on the do-not-
call list, with the noted exceptions above, that
any subsequent contact by Discover Card is in
violation of the law and the FTC doesn't care how
long it takes for the offending company to place
you on the do-not-call list. I wouldn't follow
K's advice about giving 45 days notice to Discover
Card. Instead the next time you get a call from
Discover Card, do as I said before (speak with
the telemarketer and the supervisor, tell them
both you want to be placed immediately on the do-
not-call list, get names, dates and times you have
spoken with them and, if you want to, you can
advise them it's your right to request this
immediate action and refusal to do so can result
in fines of up to $11,000 per violation from the
FTC plus you can take Discover Card into small
claims court and sue them for the same amounts).
A further note to K. You could have advised Paul
about the do-not-call list yourself, but you didn't and when I brought it up, you're doing Paul
a disservice by telling him to allow Discover Card
45 days to remove his number from the calling list. So K, you're in error by suggesting to Paul
it would take 45 days to get his number removed
because I know from first-hand experience it can
be done in a single day which a letter from a
lawyer or a suit in a small claims court and
action by the FTC would encourage Discover Card to
do (in fact Discover Card may be liable for damages based on what Paul has said who I now
quote: 'Since I cancelled my DISCOVER card they have not stopped hounding me on the phone!
They repeatedly call me at night asking me to reactivate my card or leave the account open. I have begged them time and time again to quit calling.').
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