Report: Plane Cents | Joe Penaz
Category: Blabber Mouth
Plane Cents | Joe Penaz Three hours of rambling and gossip passed off as 'Personal Safety Training' Waconia Minnesota
*Consumer Comment ..May 3rd class in Glencoe
Rebuttal Box
Respond to this report!
Are you an owner, employee or ex-employee with either negative or positive information about the company or can you provide "insider information" on this company? Victim of this person/company?
Are you also a victim of the same company or person? Want Justice? File a Ripoff Report and don´t let them get away with it!
Plane Cents | Joe Penaz
Fax:
Waconia, Minnesota,
U.S.A.
Submitted: 11/5/2007 12:49:46 PM
Modified: 5/6/2008 12:29:13 PM
Active observer
East St. Paul, MinnesotaThis guy advertises himself as the 'cheapest' conceal & carry instructor in the state, and I guess he's right. A buddy of mine talked me and two other friends into doing this class with him because of the price (it was just under sixty bucks), and we were 'treated' to just about hours (including breaks) of his rambling, incoherent stories, and then were signed off to get our C&C permits for MN and Utah, although I don't know what Utah has to do with it. (We all live in MN.)
He kept talking about how he was giving us 'the basics,' and kept ducking questions that we had about the law. Like when my buddy asked him if we would be able to carry our guns at the Excel Center in St. Paul (we go to a lot of concerts) he chattered for about ten minutes and couldn't give us a yes or a no, and then when my buddy called him on his shit he said that he'd been training by some law professor as though we gave a shit about who 'trained' him, and then didn't answer the question, although we did learn that he thinks its cool to brag to guys about how many times he's cheated on his wife.
He did try to sell us a bunch of stuff, though. Bowling balls, floor polishes, holsters, and some sort of nutritional supplements and tried to talk my other buddy into buying some sort of 'dealership' from him for that.
I don't think he's a ripoff artist. Just a moron who doesn't know anything but will try to sell everything.
Active observer
East St. Paul, Minnesota
U.S.A.
Search for additional reports
If you would like to see more Rip-off Reports on this company/individual, please use the search box below:
In order to assure the best results in your search:
- Keep the name short & simple, and try different variations of the name.
- Do not include ".com", "S", "Inc.", "Corp", or "LLC" at the end of the Company name.
- Use only the first/main part of a name to get best results.
- Only search one name at a time if Company has many AKA’s.
Rebuttal Box
Respond to this report!
Are you an owner, employee or ex-employee with either negative or positive information about the company or can you provide "insider information" on this company? Victim of this person/company?
Are you also a victim of the same company or person? Want Justice? File a Ripoff Report and don´t let them get away with it!Repair Your Reputation
Got Reports filed against you? Resolve the issues and rebuild trust through our Corporate Advocacy Program.
Updates & Rebuttals:
- Doesn't really deserve a rebuttal, but ... Joepenaz [11/20/2007 5:25:58 PM]
- Favorable review from recent student Ken Hood [12/1/2007 6:02:43 PM]
- Former student disagrees with slanderous statements. JC [12/4/2007 6:11:02 AM]
- Plane Cents = solid information Jjstacy [12/5/2007 8:17:16 AM]
- From someone who's taken this course Greg Anderson [1/2/2008 3:37:15 PM]
- I disagree Bruce [1/17/2008 11:33:39 PM]
- Joe's Class was Great Markw [2/12/2008 7:59:35 AM]
- I am in complete disagreement Peter W. [2/15/2008 8:56:50 AM]
- Joe Penaz Highly Qualified Instructor Kd [2/17/2008 8:07:50 PM]
- Response to Active Observer Erik T [2/18/2008 5:23:57 PM]
- Better quality class for half the money - report unjust Class Participant [2/25/2008 7:17:38 PM]
- Satisfied Customer Satisfied Customer [3/2/2008 9:51:30 AM]
- Joe Penaz Plane Cents Highly Competent Instructor Anonymous [3/3/2008 7:34:26 AM]
- Educational Class Bp [3/6/2008 11:18:40 AM]
- Use some common sense. Joe Penaz is dangerous Casual Observer [3/9/2008 6:26:40 PM]
- I took another class 5 years ago and Joe's was better and more professional than my first course Formerstudent [3/12/2008 4:02:22 AM]
- Do your homework! Another Observer! [3/20/2008 9:27:50 AM]
- Joe does a great class covers all the material, keeps your attention charges a fair price Formerstudent [3/21/2008 6:15:13 AM]
- Use good judgment and your eyes and ears Honest Guy [3/21/2008 9:45:20 AM]
- Ask around Dave Dallin [3/31/2008 8:24:24 AM]
- You get what you pay for Bob O [3/31/2008 8:34:29 PM]
- CCW folks - we need to stick together! Chase [4/1/2008 3:29:09 AM]
- Chase, you are full of it Casual Observer [4/1/2008 10:23:33 AM]
- Constructive suggestion Dungaree Dave [4/1/2008 2:10:01 PM]
- Its time for the person being attacked to chime in again, here I am... Joepenaz [4/1/2008 10:08:22 PM]
- Slander-Smander Casual Observer [4/2/2008 1:56:05 AM]
- Stop changing the subject, Joey Dave Dallin [4/2/2008 7:01:40 AM]
- Lets see if we can figure out who the liar really is... Joepenaz [4/2/2008 10:53:56 PM]
- You don't listen very well do you Joey?!' Casual Observer [4/3/2008 2:32:23 AM]
- You keep digging yourself in deeper and deeper, Joey Dave Dallin [4/3/2008 6:14:24 AM]
- You be the judge -- who's lying and what's the motive? Joepenaz [4/3/2008 8:04:24 PM]
- I will be taking Joe Penaz's class! Mike Dokken [4/3/2008 10:07:30 PM]
- Joe, you only address the issue you want and then only answer half the question. Casual Observer [4/4/2008 6:10:54 AM]
- The government is hiring Penaz to provide antiterrorist training: start buying burkas! Dave Dallin [4/4/2008 3:14:13 PM]
- The legislature needs to settle this Eric [4/6/2008 2:44:13 PM]
- A Warning About 'Eric [redacted]' Johncailesdi [4/6/2008 11:35:52 PM]
- I was not impressed Dr. Al [4/7/2008 1:25:46 PM]
- Well Joey got scared and removed the link to the Rip Off Report... Casual Observer [4/7/2008 9:36:29 PM]
- That guy is not a Doctor nor was he ever at any class of Joe's Formerstudent [4/8/2008 4:45:08 AM]
- How interesting! Dave Dallin [4/9/2008 6:30:43 AM]
- I am taking Joe's class on Saturday Mike Dokken [4/9/2008 7:41:30 PM]
- Great! Dave Dallin [4/10/2008 6:48:10 AM]
- Hey Dallen you just called the doctor a dumb doob Formerstudent [4/10/2008 10:15:13 AM]
- Get your story straight, Joey! Dave Dallin [4/10/2008 11:14:52 AM]
- Where is the 'Dokken Report'? Dave Dallin [4/15/2008 12:46:34 PM]
- Just a thought... Cindyjones [4/17/2008 9:58:34 PM]
- OK Dave Dallin [4/18/2008 11:52:10 AM]
- My opinion on it? Cindyjones [4/19/2008 4:07:01 PM]
- Joe, I am still waiting for you to step up and answer my questions... Casual Observer [4/23/2008 4:36:42 AM]
- Tell the truth Dave Dallin [4/25/2008 1:04:38 PM]
- Joe Penaz Vance [5/5/2008 7:05:30 AM]
- May 3rd class in Glencoe Jim [5/6/2008 9:43:49 AM]
Doesn't really deserve a rebuttal, but ...
First off, I would like apologize for whatever I did to set this person off. Since he did not have the courage of his convictions to sign the report, I have no way of verifying that he in fact is one of my students (something that should be taken into consideration when you read it). I would like to address some of the points this person raises:
I am not in this business to make a living (my wife and I are gainfully employed), I am in this business because I believe in our Second Amendment rights. The motivation for my pricing structure is to make it less painful to get a permit to carry in Minnesota, and to help persons who otherwise might not be able to afford the training in addition to the application fees.
I have never ducked the issue of where you can or cannot carry, I simply state the facts and relay some personal experiences. I am not a lawyer and I do not give legal advice. I do my best to explain the law and I provide each student a copy of the law and ask them to read it. Some students don't want me to tell them something other than what they want to hear. For that I am sorry, but I cannot change the law.
While I do have links relating to some of my hobbies and interests on my website, I have never tried to sell a bowling ball, ?FLOOR POLISHES? (I have no idea where that came from), nutritional supplements, or anything of the sort during my classes. I show a variety of firearms and accessories during my classes. As a service to my students, I do stock a couple of items that are not readily available for purchase in retail stores.
As for his claim that I brag about how many times I've cheated on my wife, I don't even know how to respond to that. My wife and I celebrated our 30th anniversary a few months ago. We have two terrific children, the oldest is a Doctor of Physical Therapy, the other will be starting Dental School in the spring. My wife is involved in the business and helps out with almost every class. If I was bragging about cheating on my wife within earshot of her, I would not still be married. Anyone who knows me knows how committed I am to my wife, my marriage, and my family.
If you thought for a moment that anything this guy wrote has any validity, think again. I encourage you to go to my website, call my references. Jeff at Cabin Fever has called me to tell me what good feedback he has gotten. Larry at the Gun Stop will also give you feedback from his customers.
To the person who wrote this commentary, the next time you decide to write slanderous trash about someone, at least be man enough to sign your name to it.
Joe Penaz
Favorable review from recent student
I attended Joe's class on November 17th. This is an unsolicited comment about Joe's class. Joe is not aware that I am posting this comment. I am signing my name and number at the bottom, so please feel free to contact me with any questions.
I received my money's worth in this class. There were no innapropriate comments made in this class. Joe stayed right on track and covered everything that he said he would cover. His real life stories and examples were used to illustrate points about the law. The class was informal, but stayed 'on point.'
I don't know what this gentleman expected to receive. I attended another class several years ago (before the St paul judge threw out the first carry law), and never got around to applying for my license at that time. So I have attended two classes from two different teachers. Both had strong and weak points, but both did exactly what they said they would do... teach a class according to state law.
As to this gentleman's comment 'I don't know what Utah has to do with it.' Well, I guess this guy just wasn't listening. Most of these classes advertise a 'two-in-one' class in case anyone wants to also apply for a non-resident license in Utah (which I did). It was clearly advertised this way when I signed up.
Joe did not try to sell us anything. As a matter of fact, I expected a bigger push about holsters (something he mentions on his website) but was actually a little disappointed that he didn't push us to 'shop for holsters' with him. He was teaching a class... not selling stuff.
One more point. Joe's wife was present, in and out of the room, throughout the class, and they are obviously very close to each other. I am offended on their behalf that this slanderous comment about cheating on his wife was made by this supposed attender and allowed to be posted.
I did not know Joe before this class, and I doubt, due to distance, that I will ever spend any time becoming his close friend. I will however refer as many people to his class as possible.
CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.
Former student disagrees with slanderous statements.
First of all I'm guessing by the slanderous nature of this so called 'rip-off report' that the 'active observer' who posted this garbage has serious mental issues or may be working for another Carry Permit instructor that needs more business. Either way when he brings a mans wife into the story you know he's talking B.S.
Apparently 'active observer' went to a different class than I did. It's obvious why Utah was covered. Apparently observer doesn't get out much. We we're given copies of the actual gun laws and resources and links to check on current laws. It's pretty simple stuff.
I recommend Joe's permit to carry course to everyone I talk to about the subject.
Joe tried to sell him bowling balls and floor polish huh? And that garbage actually got posted?
There's a difference between a 'letter to the editor' and slander. Too bad the rip-off report can't distinguish between the two.
Plane Cents = solid information
I toook Joe's class for conceal carry and found the information presented to be insightful and interesting. The class covered everything it advertised and more. My intent was to be certified so as to be able to apply for a carry permit and that's exactly what the class did.
Joe answered all the questions asked and gave the correct advise in regards to legal issues. For someone not to get this says alot about their attention span or their lack of basic skills and they probaby should not be thinking of carry or even owning a firearm.
Submitted: 1/2/2008 3:37:15 PM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AM
Greg Anderson
Eden Prairie, MinnesotaU.S.A.
From someone who's taken this course
I've taken Joe Penaz's Plane Cents Self Defense - Permit to Carry course twice. Let me explain. I first took this course in early 2007. Everything about the course was professional and informative. I delayed making the application for the Utah permit, its accepted in MN and 15 other states that the MN permit isn't, for 9 mos.
I thought I had a year. I contacted Joe for advise. Joe explained that Utah had shortened its requirement to 6 months from training date and couldn't issue a new certificate. It wouldn't be ethical. He would allow me to attend the Utah portion of his next class...at no charge. Doesn't sound like a guy with money as priority.
I'm a 57 year old purchasing agent, veteran of VN Army '68-69. Believe it or not I don't really care, my point is I've experienced enough to know when I'm dealing with a straight shooter or bs artist. Everything I expected from Joe's course I got, plus. I believe Joe presents his course as he says. As American's we have a right to defend ourself's and to refuse to be a victim. Along with that I got an appreciation for the seriousness of the obligation that comes with gun carry, as a last resort and the personal consequences that can come with using that right. If someone is or wants a Rambo I wouldn't suggest Joe's course, if someone wants a guy with knowledge, personal experience and ethics then I would.
I disagree
I disagree with the person who submitted this. I, my wife, and son took a class from Joe on January 5, 2008. I am not sure what we expected when we enrolled, but we came away from the class very pleased. I commented to the State of Utah on their evaluation form that my only complaint was that the class was maybe too short. There was a lot of information that was presented in class.
On our way home and into the evening, we had discussions on what we had learned, and what Joe was able to do was to make us think. Yes, he did bring up many situations that he had gotten into and I, at least for myself, I felt that I had lead a very mundane life compared to Joe. But it was his personal experiences that made us think how we would act in different situations and that we needed to always be aware of what is going on around us. That was worth the price of admission even if a person decides they never want to carry.
Yes, we discussed the laws, but we also discussed public perception of us that will be carrying. The laws don't address that.
I am not sure why the person who wrote the complaint wrote it. I wonder if he was paying attention to what was being said and to what Joe was trying to do.
I can't speak for the other 8 people in the class, but I do know that my family was happy with the way Joe taught us. I did not hear any negative comments from anyone in our class, in fact one of the people talked to him about doing a private class for some of his associates. That person already had his Minnesota carry and was in class to get his Utah carry. (If the original writer would have been paying attention or read the handouts from Joe, he may know the difference between the Utah and the Minnesota permits)
Joe's Class was Great
I am writing this as a rebuttal to the unfit-for-printing report found here. I attended the February 9 Carry class with Joe Penaz. I had heard from a friend that Joe was a great instructor, and in turn I now look to recommend him to as many friends as I can. My father, mother, brother and I attended together and enjoyed a four-person discount, not the non-existent three-person group mentioned in the bogus 'active observer' report (strike one). We all cherished our time with Joe and reflected upon it warmly on our way to and from the range in the car. The class was very enjoyable, due to Joe's excellent examples and infectious passion for firearms safety. He believes in hands-on education, and allows you to handle many fine examples in sidearms, a real plus.
When sitting in a class for hours as required, believe me, if a person can make it fun, that is superb! Joe did mention the political climate, and that is completely relevant. Getting a concealed carry permit is part of the solution to a society that wants to demonize and remove guns. Joe is doing his part to no less than preserving our entire system of freedom. Joe carefully explains the legality of different carry situations. 'Active observer' could not figure out that the legality of postings are not always certain and open to court deliberation, so shame on him/her (strike two).
The instruction was thourough and gave many examples to illustrate every point. The shooting at the range was basic and covered the bases, yet it was extremely proffessional, stressing having your finger away from the trigger until firing and other necessary details.
In closing, I will state, as others have, that 'Active oberver' was the REAL moron in writting that malicious report that he/she produced. As others pointed out, that person is a real fool and lost all credebility for not even figuring out the benefit of getting the many states covered in the Utah permit (strike three). I will refrain from foul language, unlike that scummy writer, and, referring to that 'active observer, ' as Mr. T would say, 'I pity the fool.' As for 'Active Observer's' use of language, you are certainly are no lady or gentleman, and I certainly do not look to you for defending my second amendmend rights, you buffoon, (Utah) You scoundrel. I do look to someone, though, and that person is Joe Penaz.
Submitted: 2/15/2008 8:56:50 AM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AM
Peter W.
Minneapolis, MinnesotaU.S.A.
I am in complete disagreement
I recently attended one of Joe's classes and found the experience to be completely different form the one highlighted in this complaint. On the contrary, I compliment Joe for conducting an informative, educational, entertaining and disciplined class. Joe kept on task with his presentation and kept it interesting by injecting case studies and even a bit of humor to hold our interest. This is a 6-hour educational seminar which demands an extremely important outcome - educated and informed citizens. It also demands a skillful and engaging teacher. Joe has both of these qualities.
I am perplexed by the report filed against Joe. Perhaps the claimant is a jealous competitor. Whatever the reason, I can state with certainty that my experience was nothing like his/hers. It seems that Joe's use of personal examples confused this individual. Joe did discuss his varied careers and interests - not to sell anything, but to create context for his presentation. The only thing offered for sale was an accessory that could benefit the user. This accessory was promoted with solid rationale.
Joe did NOT speak negatively about his wife. On the contrary, he spoke highly of her, mentioned that they have been married for 30 years and she even helped in the background in managing our group. Shame on the claimant for suggesting such a damaging and insulting act.
I am completely satisfied with the class that was offered and I submit that it was excellent value for the money. I highly recommend Joe's class and will be happy to speak with anyone who is considering hiring him for this important educational seminar.
Joe Penaz Highly Qualified Instructor
Hey all,
I too attended one of Joe's classes recently and have to say shame on the individual who started this thread. Joe Penaz is extremely informative and very experienced in all items relative to the class.
The class outline was easy to follow. All legal aspects where covered extensively. A good demonstration of various carry options regarding handgun selection and carry method i.e. holsters and such was also included.
I myself have both military and professional experience and as a new resident to MN am required to take a class as this in order to apply for a new carry permit. I can only assume that the original posting was by a competitor that simply can not offer the same quality as Joe at his unbeatable rates.
If you need any of the classes offered by Mr. Joe Penaz I would highly recommend checking him out- you will be glad you did!
Response to Active Observer
I was in Joes class two days ago and agree with everyone else that he is a solid instructor. He explained everything in great detail and made sure we all understood what he was talking about before moving on. The only thing he did try to offer us was a certain model of gun holster with no pressure to buy, he was simply doing it because they were hard to get elsewhere.
Joe has been teaching this course for a long time and has taught thousands of people and is respected by the whole gammet of law enforcement personnel, including the numberous ones who sit through his course. I am not sure where the 'active observer' is coming from when he said he didnt know what Utah was about, either he is a complete *&*&, or he is hard of hearing, because you should already know the answer to that before even walking into the class.
Utah is another state in the United States of America, they have a course to carry concealed guns there too, Joe teaches that class along with the Minnesota class so that if you do send off to get the Utah permit, you can also carry your concealed weapon in all the states that recognize Utahs permit.
As far as Joe bragging about cheating on his wife, Joe has been married for 30 years and his wife is also an instructor and was also involved in the class from start to finish.
I believe that Active Observor is another conceal-carry instructor who is both overpriced and a very boring/stupid instructor where nobody is going to him anymore so he has to try to bring down a damn good instructor just to make himself feel better. Every statement the old Observor made is complete crap and everybody that knows Joe or has taken his class knows that.
Submitted: 2/25/2008 7:17:38 PM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AMClass Participant
Excelsior, MinnesotaU.S.A.
Better quality class for half the money - report unjust
We recently took the same class. Prior to attending, we read the posting on ripoffreport and were a little concerned about the quality. This class was at better level of quality than another class for twice the money in previous years with another instructor. We normally do not file feedback, but the article did not resemble at all what the 'observer' detailed.
Submitted: 3/2/2008 9:51:30 AM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AMSatisfied Customer
Wyoming, MinnesotaU.S.A.
Satisfied Customer
I am a Satisfied Customer of Joe Penaz's Plane Cents Self Defense - Permit to Carry course. I found the course the class as enjoyable as it was informative.
I was quite suprised to here about this thread. But then I really should'nt be; those that do not beleave in our Second Amendment rights; or would like to twist them, will stop at nothing to achive their goals.
If Joe Reads this I would like to thank him for a excelent class. I went to his class on a recomendation. I did not compaire prices.
Joe Penaz Plane Cents Highly Competent Instructor
I and four of my friends took Joes course recently based on couple of references from acquaintances. We all came out with much more than we expected. It was an Enjoyable and informative class in a very comfortable environment.
Joe did mention bowling; He did this in order to illustrate a great analogy of how bowling relates to marksmanship. It was an important analogy as he needed to stress how to practice and how important it is to be proficient. There was no sales pitch on bowling or any other product. Joe gave informative information on several of the products he uses and gave comparative and factual reasons why he chose them. It is part of the course and I am thankful for his input. It will probably save me a lot of trial and error and money.
Joe covered the legal aspects thoroughly. As far as where one can carry and where not Joe covered the basic law thoroughly. One should not expect anyone to be a walking library on the law. The individual is responsible to research specific locations.
I highly recommend Joes Plane Cents course and feel it was well worth my extra drive time and gas money.
Educational Class
I just wanted to add my comments regarding Joe's class. There were 7 of my family that participated in Joe's class. We drove from Northern MN to attend, the cost was one of the main reasons, but we had also heard good things regarding the class. I was not disappointed in his teachings. The class was very informative and definately covered the information that we were there to learn. He did make the class very interesting with his real life interjections. Putting a real life twist on this class instead of just the text book version lets the class come away with more and i believe remember more of what was discussed. There were 3 other women in this class besides myself and Joe made good recommendations on personal protection. I would and have told people that this class was worth taking.
Thank you to Joe and his family for providing a great class, a nice lunch and welcoming us, a bunch of strangers into your home. It is much appreciated.
Submitted: 3/9/2008 6:26:40 PM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AMCasual Observer
Minneapolis, MinnesotaU.S.A.
Use some common sense. Joe Penaz is dangerous
If you are going to get your carry permit you had better think before you go with this Joe Penaz fellow. Sure he is cheap but you do get what you pay for.
First off, I have not yet taken his class but I am temped to do so just to see what his classroom portion is like. I have seen him on the range with his students and it's pathetic because is only requires 10, yes TEN, rounds total to qualify for your range portion of the course.
There is a reason why a 2 year college degree is less valuable than a 4 year degree and the same goes for the 3 hours CCW course and a 7 hour course.
So it's a 3 hours class and at $75 comes down to $25 per hour for Joey, where as other classes are $125 for 7 hours which is $18 per hour. In the end Joey here makes more an hour and teaches you less! The up side is that should you get into a shooting, you could try to sue Joe for providing inferior training. It might meet the state's minimum requirements but Joe is acting without morals here. Which reminds me, I wonder if Joe carries any liability insurance or will you own his house after suing him???
Let's break a couple of things down here that you should think about regarding statements on his website:
1- '...Why Choose Us? No one has both Utah and Minnesota for less than $75....'
Well, let's take a look at this statement of his website. Doesn't this frighten you a bit? If I were a surgeon and told you should pick me to do surgery on your brain because I was the cheapest, not because I was good, would you select me? Also 3 hours to teach all the relevant CCW laws for 2 different states? This does not pass the sniff test.
2- '...Ask yourself, would you spend your hard earned money to get training in golf from someone who is not a pro?...'. Joe surely does not act like a pro, kind of amateur hour. He says he isn't in this business to make money. Well Joe, how about you do it for free then? Come on Joe, you are in it for the 2nd amendment aren't you?
“…I do the class portion at my house…†very professional indeed, I am impressed… NOT.
3- '...* Over 90 hours of formal firearms instructor level classroom training from the likes of the NRA, AACFI, and MADFI...' wow.....NOT. When is the last time you received some new training? 90 hours isn't that much bud. Recent, realistic and relevant training, when is the last time Joey got any of that for himself to improve his skills?
'...* I hold a class 01, 02, SOT, 07 Federal Firearms License (Machine guns) as a dealer and gun manufacturer developing enhancments and parts for light machine guns....' Does not have much to do with teaching CCW does it?
'...pilot and aircraft owner....Class 'A' commercial drivers license...Dive coordinator scuba divers license, professional scuba diver...ABC bowling instructor...Teach guitar, piano, voice and music theory....' whoop-dee-doo, I am really really thrilled about all of these qualifications. Just explain to me how that helps you be a firearms instructor again? It sounds more like you know a little about a lot but aren't focused enough to be an expert at anything.
'...* I can sell and demo guns other instructors cannot even own...'. I can sell ladies intimates but that does not make me a good lover does it?!
4- WHY should you take our MN Permit to Carry course vs. others being offered? Our instructors were trained by Joe Olson, the attorney who wrote the law. Correct, Mr. Olson wrote a lot of the law and is part of AACFI and Joe Penaz isn't teaching thru AACFI anymore. I wonder why? Also note that AACFI is the course which requires a time shoot at the range and Joe does not like that though.
5- Most importantly of all, I carry every day. This is important! Many instructors out there do not; many others have carried only since the bill passed Huh?! And what the heck are you trying to say here. Joey, did you carry your gun BEFORE the carry bill was passed?
6- Plane Cents no longer offers AACFI permit to carry courses; however, Joe Penaz was AACFI trained. We have written our own BCA-approved course which goes beyond. So Joey was trained by AACFI and has now written his own course which goes beyond? Beyond what? How can you go beyond AACFI if you teach only 3 hours? It can't be beyond the BCA requirements because you state yourself that just teach you what you need to fulfill the Minnesota requirements to apply for the permit. This means you only teach the minimum and DO NOT go beyond.
I just love the way you keep saying you AACFI certified but no longer teach their classes. It's kinda sad how you need to use another organization to boost your own company.
Harley ads, Amsoil ads very professional and for crying out loud do something about that website(s) you have. There are 15 year olds who can make better website than that and make it more professional. Start teaching quality and not quantity.
Submitted: 3/12/2008 4:02:22 AM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AMFormerstudent
Hopkins, MinnesotaU.S.A.
I took another class 5 years ago and Joe's was better and more professional than my first course
5 years ago I took another instructors class. I came to Joe after reading the comments that were made by many happy students and also talked to one of the gun shops he uses for a reference. The Larry at the Gun stop in Minnetonka highly recommended Joe and said they have for 5 years. They said no one has ever said anything bad about Joe just good. I also talked to two different instructors about their courses and when I asked them about Joe he is right the money issue did come up.
The last guy making slanderous comments in this report who said that Joe does a 3 hour class is most likely the same guy who wrote the first report that started this and if he came to the class he would realize he is wrong. Both times if he had been to the class he would see he is wrong. It states on the web site that the class starts at 9:00 and finishes around 2:30 or later and thats's what Joe told me when I called and we did not get out of the class until after 4pm that day and I wanted to stay at the range with Joe it was so much fun.
That's at least 5 hours not 3. This is where you should stop reading his report. His basement has a very professional look to it even has a ceiling mounted power point projector and brand new padded chairs to sit on. He supplies all the refreshments for free and his wife cooks a meal that was to die for. Every thing the observer as he calls him self said about Joe is wrong and a lie.
I would recommend him the way many have in this report to all who are looking for a class and a good understanding about CC. Keep up the good work Joe the truth always wins and the truth is I was very happy with my course from Plane Cents. Observer why don't you worry about your course I agree with others in this report that you are another instructor and this is just cheap!
Submitted: 3/20/2008 9:27:50 AM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AMAnother Observer!
Maplewood, MinnesotaU.S.A.
Do your homework!
Penaz was not in the business before the carry law handed him a bonanza! That's why he takes short cuts and is a laughingstock in every gun shop in the the area!! Just hang around any of them and ask, OFF THE RECORD! He always brags that his wife is a lawyer and will sue ANYBODY who says anything bad about him!
If you want GREAT training, go to some endeavor like DEFENSIVE EDGE that has been around for years, and not a Jonny Come Latelly like Joe Penaz!!!
Submitted: 3/21/2008 6:15:13 AM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AMFormerstudent
Hopkins, MinnesotaU.S.A.
Joe does a great class covers all the material, keeps your attention charges a fair price
Joe Penaz teaches a good course period. I have taken the course and he covers all that is necessary in a 5-6 hour class. He does not make you shoot for hours at the range if you can shoot a good group into a body size target. His course was approved by the BCA and is followed page by page with a power point projector so as not to miss any material.
I took a course last time around from a prominent instructor like him and the courses were very close in content. You have more lies about him. His wife is not an attorney, get the facts straight. Call the gun shops listed ask them about Joe I did. No one offers more for less that's why you (an instructor) are taking shots at him. Worry about your own course not his. Why would anyone except another instructor care about what he does? He puts a link to this report at the top of his web pages do you think he really is worried about what you say about him? You can trash him all you want his students are who send more students to him and I know why he is a good guy.
I listened to him closely last week he has done things other guys just think about doing. Its not bragging if it's the truth, and he can show you pictures and proof of anything he did. He is a born teacher and has a way of really keeping your attention at his class. His experience with metallic silhouette and high power rifle shooting as well as building and modifying machineguns puts him in different category than some instructors. He does not tear down other instructors or their classes he leaves that to guys like you. He even said at the last class “I will never say I am the best instructor or my course is the best, just that I have a product that people want and market it wellâ€. I would highly recommend Joe Penaz to any one who wants to get a good value in a course.
I am not just some idiot I am a successful business owner in my 50's if he had ripped me off I would not be sticking up for him. People like you Maple Wood Observer will always be trying to be something you can't because you waste time you could spend being better at what you do, trying to hurt people like Joe who are already there.
Joe there are a lot of people who are sticking up for you I am proud to be one of them.
Submitted: 3/21/2008 9:45:20 AM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AMHonest Guy
Burnsville, MinnesotaU.S.A.
Use good judgment and your eyes and ears
If you want to know whose who and what's what in CCW training in the metro area, just go to Burnsville Pistol Range on a couple of Saturday afternoons and watch and listen. (Almost all of the good metro instructors and some others do their shooting qualifications there and most are on the weekends.) Watch which instructors the range owner watches like a hawk and who he doesn't worry about. Don't ask him. Unless he knows you, he won't get involved in straightening you out.
You can see who get treated like respectable colleages and who gets tolerated.
You can figure out who are the real deals and who the cheapie artists are, pretty quick.
Submitted: 3/31/2008 8:24:24 AM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AMDave Dallin
Minneapolis, MinnesotaU.S.A.
Ask around
Spend any Saturday at Burnsville Pistol Range and watch what happens when Penaz and his untrained shooters stagger in. It's a joke.
Ask around if you want to know the score. Ask a bunch of instructors 'If you had a family member or friend who wanted to get a conceal/carry permit and they couldn't go to you, who would you send them to?' and see which names come up. You'll hear the same names over and over again, and it WON'T be Joe Penaz.
You get what you pay for
It's stupid to expect that a quickie cheap class from a bowling ball / amsoil / holster / whatever salesman who can't afford a spellchecker is going to be anything to brag about.
CCW folks - we need to stick together!
I normally don't like to get involved in stuff like this I hate political B.S. However, I really have to address some of the comments made here regarding this course.
The original author of the complaint states as part of the reason he considered the course a rip off' was that I'm really not sure what the Utah permit has to do with anything, we live in Minnesota Well sir, if you kept up on the laws and ever traveled anywhere, you'd understand. Do a little research and maybe you'll learn something.
Many of the antagonists here state that there is better training else where. YES, THERE IS. You can go anywhere in the state, I promise you, there is better training SOMEWHERE. The Plane Cents advertises itself as the bare minimum required by law. I have been through many of the other courses civilian, Law Enforcement, and Military. This time around, to renew my permit, I didn't feel a desire to pay $125 or more to take a course I have already taken.
If a person requires more training than the minimum, then they need to be responsible enough to take it!
I took my first CCW permit course in 1999. I'm a Veteran (1988-1994) with two Combat MOS's (2 years as an infantryman and 4 as an M-1 tanker). I worked as a Personal Protection Agent from 1999 to 2003. I'm now a deputy in a local county jail where I work as a Field Training Officer and a course on Tactical Mindset and Officer Safety. The other people that were in the class with me included many Veterans, a group of competitive handgun shooters, and a few others in various (non-licensed) law enforcement positions.
I'm stating the above because Mr. David Dallin referred to us as a gaggle of untrained shooters because we didn't take *his* course. This is a phenomenon I like to call the Dumb jock syndrome - you know, anyone that doesn't do exactly as he does isn't as special as he is.
Mr. Dallin, what gives you the right to judge me, who I am, and what my skills are?
The Burnsville range didn't seem to have ANY problem with us untrained shooters paying a full range fee to pop off 10 rounds , then leaving. (I personally would liked to have stayed a bit longer and shot) But, they are there a business taking our money and getting us through as quickly as possible to make room for the next group.
I didn't see any unsafe actions by the students. The last course I took in 2003 with a different instructor also held their shoot at the Burnsville range. They looked annoyed then because the instructor didn't notify them ahead of time. Oh, and nobody, except Joe, watched us untrained shooters like a hawk.
The course was much longer than 3 hours (hell, I wish it was only 3 hours). Nobody offered to sell me a bowling ball, or whatever else is stated here. His wife wasn't in the class but he never once said anything negative about her or claimed to have cheated on her.
I don't feel I was ripped off at all, I paid what he quoted, and received the class that was specified.
THAT being said – IN ORDER TO PRESERVE OUR FREEDOMS WE NEED TO STICK TOGETHER. This stupid in-fighting is how we loose our rights to begin with. We need to stop bickering if you're slandering other instructors and CCW permit holders so you can make a buck, knock it off!
If we don't stick together as a unified voice, we will again loose our freedoms to those liberals who can put aside their differences, work together, (and maybe plant a few TROLLS in our mist to cause dissention!) to weaken our cause. KNOCK IT OFF!
Submitted: 4/1/2008 10:23:33 AM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AMCasual Observer
Minneapolis, MinnesotaU.S.A.
Chase, you are full of it
Chase, your response if full of it. Why would you take a renewal CCW course if you are a Deputy or are you actually non-LEO?
Who the hell are you to tell the rest of us 'KNOCK IT OFF'?! Do we need to stick together or do we need to make sure CCW carriers are properly trained.
If we need to stick together
Let's let Joey come out and explain himself?
Dave Dallin, please clarify your statements with facts please.
Constructive suggestion
Instead of having Joey beg for more 'unsolicited' support from his 'students' and explain how he can say, 'I do more corporate private at your location classes than any other instructor call me for my list.' (Is he for real? Who does he think he's fooling about how all the other instructors are going to share their private class lists with him? Does he give ALL of his 'students'' private information this kind of care?) and then explain how him having lost two engines in planes and playing piano and selling bowling balls and coating garage floors and taking Motrin qualifies him to be a carry permit instructor. Hey Joey? Did you ever FIND those two engines?? Were they covered in floor coatings or under the bowling balls?
Why not just ask an expert?
He says he was 'trained' by Joe Olson. He says that 'No other course gives the same in-depth view into the law.' he says. I bet he won't ask Joe Olson to sit in on his class and give an HONEST opinion about how 'in-depth' he is or whether he is up to his hipboots in bullshit. He says he 'we are associated with and was certified by MADFI in 2005'. I bet he won't ask MADFI to sit in on his class and give an HONEST opinion about it. He mentions Joel Rosenburg on his website and says he teaches the same thing as Rosenburg's 'Twin Cities Carry' class. I bet he won't ask Rosenburg to sit in on his class and give an HONEST opinion on it.
He loses engines, sells floor coatings and teaches 'Anti Terrorist Guns and Training (MN) CTU training!'
Either Joey is full of it or Jack Bower should eat his heart out.
Bet he doesn't ask an expert!
Its time for the person being attacked to chime in again, here I am...
You need to take a good close look at what is being said about me and how all of it has been called a lie by students who have actually taken my course. Then look at how rare it is to have customers go to bat for anyone being attacked on Ripp-off.com. If you read the comments you will see that no one says they were ripped off by me, not even the guy who started this. What you will see is a lot of cheap shots at me and my wife -- it doesn't get any lower than that. If you take the time to read the negative comments in this report, I'm sure you will come to the same conclusion I have, it's instructors who are attacking me, not students who have actually taken my course. So ask yourself, why would these instructors be attacking me? It's clear they are having a hard time competing with me.
A frequent comment is you get what you pay for, trying to convince you that my course is inferior to others because I charge less. All instructors are expected to follow the BCA rules and teach a complete class following the course as approved by the BCA. I provide a high quality course filled with content you won't find anywhere else and I present the material in a dynamic and understandable manner. The classroom portion of my course takes about 5 hours (longer depending on questions and discussion) plus the shooting time at the range. This is not a quickie course, as students who have actually taken my course have stated in their comments.
As some of my critics have suggested, I agree that you should do your homework; talk to gun shops and your friends for references; come to Burnsville Pistol Range on a Saturday afternoon, talk to my students, observe my class at the range. Invariably you will see my students waiting around until the shoot is finished to shake my hand and thank me for the great class and for welcoming them into my home. I actually had an instructor say to me You actually let ‘those people' in your home? What does that say about that instructor's opinion of his students?
The bottom line is my classes are full and I am keeping very busy! The majority of my business is referrals from former students and gun shops. I am busy because I offer a product that consumers are choosing over others being offered. That's what the competition does not like and why they are attacking me. You will never hear my wife or I tearing down other instructors, we just keep working at making our courses better.
While this report was filed to hurt and discredit me through slanderous lies, the fact is that I am busier than ever. Obviously consumers are smart enough to figure out what's going on here, and the truth is prevailing.
Submitted: 4/2/2008 1:56:05 AM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AMCasual Observer
Minneapolis, MinnesotaU.S.A.
Slander-Smander
Joey, booby... you don't get it do you. The other instructors are upset with you because your product is not up to par, nothing to do with 'competition'.
Explain in detail why you ride on the tail coats of other organizations such as AACFI and MADFI but you do not teach their courses? Why don't you teach their stuff or are you teaching their stuff but calling it your own?
Explain how is it that you claim to teach just the minimum requirements of the BCA and yet claim to be the best thing since sliced bread?
Address the issues I raised before and explain yourself:
'...* I hold a class 01, 02, SOT, 07 Federal Firearms License (Machine guns) as a dealer and gun manufacturer developing enhancments and parts for light machine guns....' Does not have much to do with teaching CCW does it?
'...pilot and aircraft owner....Class 'A' commercial drivers license...Dive coordinator scuba divers license, professional scuba diver...ABC bowling instructor...Teach guitar, piano, voice and music theory....' whoop-dee-doo, I am really really thrilled about all of these qualifications. Just explain to me how that helps you be a firearms instructor again? It sounds more like you know a little about a lot but aren't focused enough to be an expert at anything.
'...* I can sell and demo guns other instructors cannot even own...'. I can sell ladies intimates but that does not make me a good lover does it?!
4- '...WHY should you take our MN Permit to Carry course vs. others being offered? Our instructors were trained by Joe Olson, the attorney who wrote the law...' Correct, Mr. Olson wrote a lot of the law and is part of AACFI and Joe Penaz isn't teaching thru AACFI anymore. I wonder why? Also note that AACFI is the course which requires a time shoot at the range and Joe does not like that though.
5- '...Most importantly of all, I carry every day. This is important! Many instructors out there do not; many others have carried only since the bill passed...' Huh?! And what the heck are you trying to say here. Joey, did you carry your gun BEFORE the carry bill was passed? JOEY, WHEN DID YOU START TEACHING THESE CLASSES? WHEN DID YOU START CARRYING?
6- '...Plane Cents no longer offers AACFI permit to carry courses; however, Joe Penaz was AACFI trained. We have written our own BCA-approved course which goes beyond. ...' So Joey was trained by AACFI and has now written his own course which goes beyond? Beyond what? How can you go beyond AACFI if you teach only 3 hours? It can't be beyond the BCA requirements because you state yourself that just teach you what you need to fulfill the Minnesota requirements to apply for the permit. This means you only teach the minimum and DO NOT go beyond.
Address the questions we have asked of you Joey. Explain yourself.
If you were a little bit more of a quiet professional and not act like God's greatest gift to firearms training you would get more respect.
It is also easy for students who have never taken a training class in their lives to think Planecents is doing a good job. Now instructors on the other hand know what it takes and what is valuable training and what is not. Your product is less than acceptable.
Submitted: 4/2/2008 7:01:40 AM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AMDave Dallin
Minneapolis, MinnesotaU.S.A.
Stop changing the subject, Joey
Joey, talk to whoever you have write your responses for you and tell him to stick to the subject! Whatever your writer says some instructor said about YOUR students doesn't have anything to do with anybody else's students just the bozos who you have 'marketed' to.
Why do you brag about being trained by Joe Olson of AACFI and being a member of MADFI but don't mention being kicked out of AACFI and MADFI? Was it because they were jealous that you were selling so many bowling balls and conducting 'CTU' training like you think your something out of '24'?
The list of MADFI instructors is at http://madfi.org/sheriff.asp . If you are 'associated with' MADFI like you say on your website why is YOUR name not there? Is it because they don't want have anything to do with you?
If you can't stick to the truth at least have who ever writes your responses for you get his story straight!
Even the poor doobs who you get to write comments for you embarrass you. 'I commented to the State of Utah on their evaluation form that my only complaint was that the class was maybe too short.'
Maybe too stupid and too filled with bowling balls and floor coverings to?
Lets see if we can figure out who the liar really is...
Ok, so now things have degraded to ripping my students. They have been called untrained stumbling shooters, poor doobs, stupid, bozos, etc. You guys even ripped a Deputy calling him a liar do you see how low you are getting? Lets see if we can figure out who the liar really is.
You keep saying my course is a quickie 3-hour class, even after several students (who, by the way have actually taken my course) have contradicted your claim. My course runs from 9:00 a.m. until 2:30 p.m., which is over five hours -- I may not be the best at spelling, but at least I can do simple math.
AACFI is a great organization and Joe Olson carries a lot of baggage for all of us and we should be grateful to him for that. I wrote my own course in 2004 and got it approved by the sheriffs (yes I have the documents) so I could teach my course. I did not need AACFI and the overhead that came with it, and passed the savings on to my students. I was not kicked out of AACFI, and that, my friend, is slander.
I was already teaching my own course when MADFI was formed. I became a MADFI instructor to support what I feel is one of the greatest organizations out there. I left MADFI when I was going to do a class of over 100 students and planned to use a laser system, which other Conceal Carry instructors were using, and similar to what many police departments use to train and qualify. Andrew would not approve it, so I chose to separate from MADFI, however I maintain a great relationship with Andrew.
On December 4, 2006, seven weeks before my large class, the BCA notified instructors that qualification with less-than-actual-shooting substitutes in lieu of actual firearms was prohibited. I ended up never using the laser system, instead I brought 100 of my students to the Burnsville Pistol Range over the next three weeks to qualify.
MADFI did audit my class in 2006 and it was rated high. What organization reviews your course Observer? Deputy sheriffs from several counties have attended my class, and did not feel I was dangerous or the content in my class was lacking. So, once again, this is provable slander. Slander is serious stuff, especially when you do it on the internet in front of everyone. You can't just say later you didn't do it.
My experiences outside the gun world enable me to share different perspectives and add interest to my course that others can't offer. Having other talents makes a teacher more interesting and better able to communicate in a way that reaches people more effectively.
I am still offering what I have always offered, a good class at a fair price. Stop saying you are trying to somehow clean things up. That's not your job, it's the BCA's job to monitor CCW trainers. I was certified to teach Conceal Carry in 2003, just a couple months after the bill was passed. No one has been teaching Conceal Carry classes much longer than me. This doesn't make me an expert just based on time, but if I was as bad as you guys say I am, why do I have the following I have. Products don't lie. I don't have a bad product I have a product that students want, and they in turn refer me to their friends and family.
These slanderous attacks do not seem to be hurting my business. While this report was filed to hurt and discredit me through slanderous lies, the fact is that I am busier than ever. Obviously consumers are smart enough to figure out what's going on here, and the truth is prevailing.
Submitted: 4/3/2008 2:32:23 AM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AMCasual Observer
Minneapolis, MinnesotaU.S.A.
You don't listen very well do you Joey?!'
Stop your crying about comments being slanderous would you! You have folks here asking critical questions of what you are doing. Don't forget that YOU are the one who provided the link to this rip off report and now you are bothered by the fact people are chiming in on it?
Who is saying your students are being degraded?! Dude, they are just victims of your ego.
E.g. 10 rounds on the range, do you have students shoot 10 round on the range or is it 30 rounds as you claim on your website(s)?
Who's course did you base your 2004 course on? AACFI by any chance... So was it really YOUR course?
The 3 hours course info was taken off your site. It was mentioned once and then repeated by others. Did you by any chance adjust your website a bit?
The 'overhead' of AACFI. How much were they charging that it was sooo much that it affected your course fee?
MADFI audited your class in 2006, which was done BEFORE you left MADFI in December 2006, correct yes or no? So why leave MADFI over a laser? You could still teach your own class since you had your own certification. There was no need to leave MADFI over this was there??
Deputy Sheriffs have attended your class?! Why would they do that, they don't need a CCW permit to carry their guns anywhere whether they are on or off duty. Now if they call themselves 'deputy' but are POST certified it is a completely different issue. Are they POST certified yes or no? Again you appear to ride on their alledged LEO coat tails to boost your reputation.
The BCA does not monitor classes and instructor, they just certified your course as OK. That is it.
I am not cleaning up. You lead me to this report and I am just commenting on your cheesy website and claims to fame. The moment I read your website my BS detector went crazy. Any self respecting firearms instructor would not start advertising for oil and floor sealants.
Address the fact that you only teach the minimum requirements of the law yet claim to be the greatest thing since sliced bread?
If you would not dis other instructors on your website claiming how great you are because you can demonstrate full auto weapons etc. etc. you might not be so disrespected. Soooo, let us see who started with slanderous claims....
Finally, at your other website diversifieddefenseprocurement, you actually teach, and I qoute '...Anti Terrorist Guns and Training (MN) CTU training!...' Bwuahahahaha. I am sorry but what the heck makes suited for anti terrorist training?!
Please tell me what it is that you train in that class, it sounds so thrilling.
HELLO TO ALL PROSPECTIVE STUDENTS OF JOEY: this is the point where you need to question if Joe's ego has overstepped his capabilities as a whole.
Joe, I really really feel for you. You need a reality check man.
Submitted: 4/3/2008 6:14:24 AM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AMDave Dallin
Minneapolis, MinnesotaU.S.A.
You keep digging yourself in deeper and deeper, Joey
You admit that you were going to take 100 untrained shooters and put them through your 'course' and have them 'qualify' with your 'Beamhit' toy and give them carry permits and let them walk around packing whatever they wanted to without ever knowing if ANY of them had so much as shot a real gun before?
Whoever you have writing your response for you is exposing you as the reckless 'marketer' that you are!
You be the judge -- who's lying and what's the motive?
You say I'm digging myself a deeper hole. Do you think I would keep bringing this stuff up if it was hurting me? No, because the truth does not hurt me. All you guys have done is lie.
My class schedule has always said 9:00 a.m. to 2:30 p.m. on Saturdays and 2:30 or 3:00 to 9:30 p.m. weekdays. I would think an Observer' such as yourself would notice what time I come into the range on Saturdays its hard to miss us, we fill the place up.
I have done CCW classes for many Law Enforcement professionals. Again, are you calling the deputy a liar? What about retired police officers or departments that do not encourage off-duty carry under their licenses, positions like jailers and prison guards? What if an officer wants be able to have a glass of wine when he is out to dinner? That's why they get a permit. They carry under it as a citizen when allowed.
As for the laser system, Utah and some other states do not even require a shooting exercise at all. I guess you are smarter than them also! Maybe you should clean house there too.
I never anywhere stated that I personally did counter terrorist training, only that my company did it. Send me a letter from your law enforcement agency and I will have the trained qualified retired special forces person I am working with show up to quote you for his team's services. My DDP site is not for the public as it states. I do not sell to the public, only law enforcement. If you called and asked about it, I would have told you that, or you could have just read it for yourself.
As for carrying before the bill, I did. I owned several businesses throughout the years, and, as the owner of a business, could legally carry to and from my place of business. If you were ever in my class, you would know that.
Lets say I am gone in a month because you guys ruined my business (I hope not as I have two of you for sure in actual provable slander now), who's next? The next guy who is competing with you? Are you going to take him out with slander too? This is the cheapest way to try to hurt someone. I have enough of an ego that I don't need to slander anyone. I just say, ‘Ask your potential instructor what qualifies him' and compare their offering to mine. Numerous CCW training websites say they are the ones to come to. They feel they are the best choice. I am well qualified and I provide a high quality course, but I don't say I'm the best. You will not find one person who will testify I have ever said that I am the best instructor out there since sliced bread. Those were your words.
Prospective students read this and then call me to sign up for a class. Your slander is not working. People can see this for what it is, slander, over and over again. I may not chime in again and let you re-spin this some more, as I am sure you will. I have addressed the points you brought up and exposed them for what they are. I also came out and explained myself when you asked me to and unlike you they know who I am. It's a pity you don't have the guts to say who you are so that people could compare your course to mine, but that would take courage, which obviously you do not have or you would not hide behind the Observer.' If you don't have courses of your own, you have no business even doing this because you do not even walk the walk. And if you had your own course and were proud of it, you would say who it is so everyone can compare our courses and see that your product is clearly superior to mine.
Why don't you just take me on in the business world? I will repeat this one last time. Offer a better product at a better value, and you should have no problem running me out of business. Then just move on to the next guy competing with you. If I am so bad, it shouldn't take long.
Submitted: 4/3/2008 10:07:30 PM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AMMike Dokken
Eden Prairie, MinnesotaU.S.A.
I will be taking Joe Penaz's class!
YOU OUGHT TO BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES! STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHAT JOE IS DOING IN HIS CLASSES. IF YOU WISH TO INITIATE A COMPLAINT WITH THE BCA, THEN DO IT!
I think you are cowards for not using your real names, or worse yet remaining anonymous. I think you are jealous and are spewing hated for your own inadequacies.
I do not know Joe, but have been given his name by some very well respected people in the business. I was signing up on his website for a class and I saw these posts listed on this Rip-0ff site. I feel very confident in taking his class to renew my permit.
Joe please do not feel compelled to respond to their comments, they obviously are trying to assassinate your character. PEOPLE SEE RIGHT THROUGH THEIR NON-SENSE!
Submitted: 4/4/2008 6:10:54 AM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AMCasual Observer
Minneapolis, MinnesotaU.S.A.
Joe, you only address the issue you want and then only answer half the question.
No one is ripping your students man!? As I said before, they are victims of your fantasy island brain.
'...I have addressed the points you brought up and exposed them for what they are. ...'??? No you haven't!
Just a few issues you did not address:
1- Do you have students shoot 10 round on the range or is it 30 rounds as you claim on your website(s)?
2- Who's course did you base your 2004 course on? AACFI by any chance... So was it really YOUR course?
3- The 'overhead' of AACFI. How much were they charging that it was sooo much that it affected your course fee?
4- MADFI audited your class in 2006, which was done BEFORE you left MADFI in December 2006, correct yes or no? So why leave MADFI over a laser? You could still teach your own class since you had your own certification. There was no need to leave MADFI over this was there??
5- Address the fact that you only teach the minimum requirements of the law yet claim to be the greatest thing since sliced bread?
No one is calling the deputy a liar, I am questioning why a deputy is taking your class when they don't have to? They can carry 'off duty', no problem.
'...What about retired police officers or departments that do not encourage off-duty carry under their licenses, positions like jailers and prison guards? ...'. Sorry Joey but again you don't know what you are talking about. LEO and retired LEO's don't get a MN carry permit, they carry under the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004 (18 U.S. Code 926B and 926C). They need to fill out a separate form which the instructor needs to sign, not the certificate issues after a carry course.
Also your course does NOT meet the requirements of this act. Shall I tell the class why? Because you only have your students shoot 10 rounds and even if you claim they shoot the 30 rounds I found on your website (which I know you don't because I have seen you on the range...), your course of fire still does not meet the MN POST boards requirements because (retired) LEOs need to shoot a 50 round course of fire. AND they need to shoot a specific course of fire at various distances and here is the kicker, it needs to be timed! And which instructor does NOT time their students on the range..... anyone..... anyone..... anyone... correct: Joe Penaz!
'...What if an officer wants be able to have a glass of wine when he is out to dinner? ...', ehm guns and alcohol don't mix! I don't care what the MN statute allows for blood alcohol content, you should NEVER drink at ALL when carrying a gun. period. It is frightening to hear a firearms instructor even suggest doing this.
'...That's why they get a permit. They carry under it as a citizen when allowed....' Trust me, if an off duty LEO gets into a gun fight, he will be judged as an LEO NOT as a citizen.
'you' provide anti-terror training?! There goes the GWOT! I would love to see your client list for that class, oh wait that is probably a secret right?
So far you have not been able to come up with one fact to refute what I have said.
It is OK for you to have classes but stop acting like you are so great. At least fix your website's font size, it looks sooo unprofessional.
I wish your students good luck, they will need it because your attitude might rub off on them and cause a great harm on the street.
Submitted: 4/4/2008 3:14:13 PM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AMDave Dallin
Minneapolis, MinnesotaU.S.A.
The government is hiring Penaz to provide antiterrorist training: start buying burkas!
Looks like Penaz just signed up another one! What a joke!
Joey, you haven't addressed ANY of the issues that have been raised. You just keep digging yourself in deeper and deeper. Claiming that anybody who takes your class and then notices how lame it is really one of your 'competitors'? Claiming that anybody who notices how everybody at Burnsville Pistol tenses up the moment you and your doobs walk in and don't relax until your gone are your 'competitors'? Claiming an 'association' with two organizations that don't list you and then changing the subject when somebody brings it up!?!
What?!?
Talk about cheap shots at other instructors! Who are you claiming was the instructor who said of your doobs 'You actually let those people' in your home?' Are you trying to accuse every instructor or are you going to be man enough to step up and tell everybody who the hell your accusing?
Take a carry class in a bowling ball salesman's basement?!?! That's real perfessional, Joey. Why not move up in the world and teach your classes at a Wendy's!
What other MN instructors were using a laser toy INSTEAD of doing a real shooting qualification? You say there were others. Who are these cheapie sneaks? List the names of instructors who violate the rules by having their students shooting toys instead of real guns!
Or did you just make that up like the 'CTU' training you do? Do you have the man from UNCLE on your 'staff' or is it just Jack Bower?
If the US government is hiring Joe Penaz to provide antiterrorist training to protect us then we better all start buying burkas!
I can see why the sheriffs send deputies in to keep an eye on you! I don't blame them at all!!
Get a clue and ask around. The BCA knows that you're a cheapie artist but there's nothing they can do.
The legislature needs to settle this
Earlier today, I sent the email to Mr. Penaz appended to the bottom of this response. I have since received two emails from Mr. Penaz, neither of which has persuaded me that my misgivings about the 'conceal and carry' handgun law were misplaced.
I think this matter must be investigated by the Minnesota legislature, to find the facts of the matter, and rewrite the 'conceal and carry' handgun law so that no future ill-trained 'instructors' will engage in the practices that Mr. Penaz has been accused of nor those which he has accused his competitors of.
My email to Mr. Penaz follows: I ask that he post his disturbing responses here.
As somebody who has been watching and been disturbed by the discussion of your 'conceal and carry' training at ripoff.com, I would like to ask you if the comments from 'Joe Penaz' on that site are:
1. In fact your comments, and/or
2. Reflect your actual observations and beliefs.
I am not a supporter of the so-called 'conceal and carry' law,
I know that any accusations floated about on the Internet must be treated with skepticism, but if the comments made either about or by you are accurate, this demonstrates that this risky law needs to be changed to require better supervision of 'conceal and carry' instructors and police departments. The notion that anybody (whether a 'conceal and carry' permit instructor's 'student' or a police officer) could ever be 'qualified' to carry a real handgun in public by showing an ability to use a training toy is very disturbing.
While you and your critics seem to disagree on much, both you and your critics have alleged that 'conceal and carry' permit instructors (they say that you are included in this; you say that you aren't, but others have done so) have used these training toys to 'qualify' people to carry a loaded, concealed, handgun in public.
I hope you will agree that this is a very disturbing allegation, and that if it is true, the law must immediately be changed to revoke the 'conceal and carry' permits of any individuals who have so 'qualified' and prevent this sort of recklessness from happening, ever, at any point in the future.
I am copying this e-mail, and will copy any response from you, to my representative and senator in the Minnesota Legislature, in the hope that this matter can be thoroughly and promptly investigated, and resolved before the end of this legislative session.
I will also advise my legislators if I receive no response from you within the next 24 hours.
Thank you in advance for your prompt and candid response.
Eric [last name redacted]
Submitted: 4/6/2008 11:35:52 PM
Modified: 4/18/2008 1:16:24 AMJohncailesdi
Eden Prairie, MinnesotaU.S.A.
A Warning About 'Eric [redacted]'
Since I have no firsthand knowledge of Mr. Penaz' classes, I will refrain from any comments about him, other than expressing some concern that he even considered using anything other than real guns and real bullets for his shooting exercise.
However, as a Firearms Instructor for mor