Empire Marketing Systems - Smart Savings Southern Utah - Perforum Inc ripoff, service and product not as advertised and paid for St. George Utah

In early November 2003 I purchased an ebook from Jim Cockrum re eBay selling. A few days later received a call from someone inquiring if I was interested in sell,using drop shippers etc. I agreed to let them call me back at a more convenient time. When they called a few days later to confirm the time, I told them I was not interested. However, I let them talk me into listening to their sales pitch and we agreed to a time.

The offer was for a web site, help in locating product, 'how to' manuals, and 8 coaching sessions; all for $5,000. I foolishly agreed. There was an urgency conveyed to get going, to pay with credit card, and the online store would be up and running in time to make the credit card payments rather than pay off the card.

Received an agreement by fax, that spoke about 'Proprietary Trade Secret information' that I would be getting as well as:

Web Store, Internet
8 Coaching Sessions
PPC Analyzer
Market Express
Wholesale Drop Shippers

Sounded impressive. Paid and signed agreement, fax dated Nov 15/2003.

Was told to expect a 'package' that would contain all the information I would need. The 'package' didn't arrive as soon as anticipated, and I had to travel for a couple of weeks. When I got back, the 'package' was there.

I opened it and saw 3 ring binder with photo copied pages of the most generic information that is accessible by anyone who has any experience looking for information on the Internet, or ever takes the time to read all the marketing email that fills your email box. That was the beginning of the realization that things were not as I had understood/interpreted from the sales pitch and description of the 'package' contents.

I contacted 'The Coaching Office' and told them that I wanted my money back, and expressed my opinion regarding the quality and value of the 'Proprietary' and 'trade secrets' contained. I personally am an entrepreneur, hold some manufacturing process patents, so have some idea of the implication when terms like 'proprietary', and 'trade secrets' mean. There is an implied uniqueness.

Was told that as per the agreement I did not have the option of refund/backing out. So I asked 'where is my store' that was listed as part of the package. That is when I realized that the 'store' was not in fact in existence, but rather I had to put it together using their software and on their server.

The PPC analyzer is nothing more than what is available from any number of sites on the Internet. The 'drop shipper' list was a few names that everybody already knows and in no way comprehensive. Names that I did receive were just given to me over the telephone.

The other part of the 'package' called 'Marketing Express' is still a mystery to me; I have no idea what it is.

I got a link to start building my store, which was really frustrating for me. The sales pitch was 'can you spend 8 hours a week, that is all it will take' I know from experience that putting together a website, and a commercial sales site, would take a lot more time than that and I really did not have the time that I knew it would take.

I argued with them that for $5,000 I had expected that I would work at selecting the type of product to be sold, but that the store would be put into an operating condition by them; the package is described as 'Web Store, Internet', and agreement also says '....services defined about includes EMS's online website creation, ecommerce, marketing and business development software...' and then describes the hosting fee for hosting the 'User's website built with Bright Builders software...'. So I did not understand from the sales pitch or from the agreement that I would be building the site with their software, and that it would NOT be them building the site.

Started building the site. Soon found out why they were not building it; the program was still under development and full of bugs and with many features not active. After spending considerable time inputing products with all associated descriptions and images, the coach finally recommended that I use a different store system software. Having become very frustrated with having to use time that I really did not have available working with program that was not ready for commercial use.

I again said I wanted my money back. Same answer. Was promised that 'supervisor' would follow up and discuss it with me but it never happened. The only occasion was when a 'supervisor' called to check up on my satisfaction with the coach. The coach was polite and helpful in his limited capacity so I did not fault him, but did take the opportunity to tell the 'supervisor' of my total dissatisfaction with their program and system, and that what they were offering was no where near worth $5,000 and I wanted my money back. The time of this conversation was in mid December. He said he would follow up and read the emails that I had sent expressing my dissatisfaction with their product. Still have not heard from him.

I started building using the 2nd software program. It seemed much better and had improved features; but soon found out that it was still under development as well. Could not even make back-ups of work. Could not re-import the exact file that was exported. Mysteriously, large amounts of work would disappear. Seems that the programmers where still building/modifying the website program and at times what ever they were doing while I was working on it could get lost, or the system simply 'froze'.

One day everything was gone. I again told the coach I wanted my money back. Same response; talked to his supervisor and it was impossible; they had no control over refunds.

Started building again. Input ~96 products with images, description, special links page, 'about us' info, the whole bit. Still could not back up. System still under development. It is now some time in June.

Here is a copy of email dated June 17 I sent to my coach:


I tried to check out IRConsulting, and the web site doesn't really exist. Tried perforummarketing, and it also does not exist. I am feeling very much like a sheep in the spring time; fleeced. I want and need my money back.>>

Received this reply June 18:

>>I have been trying to contact you since our normal meeting time on Tuesday but have been unable to get in contact with you. I spoke with my supervisor and it seems impossible to receive any type of refund. What they did discuss with me was purchasing a separate website for you from an established 3rd party vendor of website builders to prevent the problems you've been encountering. We would go and transfer your information to the other builder so that you would not have to worry about dealing with that.

The original products page is set up just to display your categories and the products included in them. We were unaware that deleting that page caused any problems. But when problems did arise for some clients that normally seemed to fix the problem.

Also, the address IRC Consulting and Perforum Marketing are just used for email so there is no website by those names just so you know.

I just wanted to make sure you were getting an answer to some of your questions. If you have questions or concerns with any of the above please email me or call me at xxx-xxx-xxxx>>

I replied with this email June 18:


I will be in Alabama on Tuesday. I should be accessible by my cell phone XXX XXX XXXX now through next week>>

Coach responded with >

On June 29 I received a call from someone that was replacing my previous coach; he was leaving for another job.

Message as I have logged is this: >

July 29 I sent the following follow-up email to my 'coach':

email sent July 29, 2004
XXXXX;

You have not responded to my email 7/13/04, or two messages left for you 7/22/04 and 7/23/04. This is confirming my feelings about your organization, and I think more serious action may be required.

I can be reached most of today at my cell phone number. Will be traveling July 30, will be at my home in North Bay the first week of August, 705 476 5571 or 705 495 1877. Monday is a holiday in Ontario, so I may not be in.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
called July 23, 2004 again. They said he was not in the office. Left message for him to call me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
called July 22, 2004 to talk to Brock. He was on the phone, so left him a message to call my cell phone.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(email sent 7/13/04)
XXXX;

We spoke several weeks ago, and you were going to call me the following week to show your new web store. I think the best thing that your company should do is refund the $5,000. Could you please forward to me the names and contact information of the principals of the organization.

Regards.>>>>

July 30 I received this message from the coach:

XXXX,

I have done what I can for you in regards to your experience. I would be happy to switch you over to the new builder and even set you up with some more coaching sessions. But I am unable to reach ems and have NO control over your refund. I'm sorry you're frustrated but I have done everything I can for you. >>

I replied asking him who received the money that I had paid.


August 3rd I replied with this email:


Have not been able to find a web site url for empire marketing systems that works. >>>

Have not had any communication from Perforum marketing (seems to be the new name of the coaching group providing services for EMS) since the above email.

Generally, the 'coaches' are polite and may be caught in the middle. But that does not relieve the responsibility of them or their supervisors/employers to provide and market legitimate services and businesses. If they are sharing in the profits that are gained from somewhat dubious business promotions, then they are sharing in the culpability.

Hopefully someone reading this is doing it because they are smart enough to do due diligence FIRST!

Gary
North Bay, Ontario
Canada