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Report: #105792

Complaint Review: Koons Ford - Baltimore Maryland

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  • Reported By: Owings Mills Maryland
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  • Koons Ford Security Blvd & Rolling Road Baltimore, Maryland U.S.A.

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Recently I was in the market for a 2002 or newer Ford Mustang with the catch being that the vehicle be an Automatic. I was trading a 2003 Ford Mustang 5-speed manual with 19,000 miles on the vehicle.

I stopped inside the dealer and was immeadiately greeted by a nice salesman and I informed him what I was looking for. He then took down the information, my name and my trade info as well. After that little sceanrio he then had his used car sales manager "look over" my vehicle. As the Used car guy was looking I picked out a black 2004 automatic that I liked and began to work out the numbers on the car.

What was a blantant attempt at theft came just within minutes of agreeing on the car. The salesman tried to inform that I would pay 19,950 for this Mustang which is what it stickered for, the trade value they offered me for my car was $7,111. He tried to back up the claim by showing me a Kelly blue book print out showing my vehicle as being Fair Condition. Fair Condition per kelly blue book is listed as being a Vehicle with Rust, in Need of Mechanical repair and extensive reconditioning.

I immeadiately begn to collect my belongings and ask for my car keys and the salesman asked why. I stated 1st. My car is a 2003 with 19,000 miles, which is less than the average for car of it's age, 2nd. My car has no rust and is far from needing mechanical repair, and I provided them with all the service receipts if they so requested.

The salesman, looked me dead in the eye and said we rate all cars fair. He then stated we offer wholesale value for trade. I said ok fine then I will offer you Wholesale price for your mustang. They were so eager to get my car they were working a deal with a 19 year old girl 3 cubicles down on my vehicle. I didn't know this until I ran into her outside having a smoke. She said she was excited that she was getting a Mustang. I said how nice, then I said which one are you getting, she then pointed to mine. She said "some guy is trading it now for a 2004 and they told me they would sell it to me for what they bought it from him for $16,500. I said and pointed to my Car and said that mustang, she said yes the one with the NOS sticker on the bumper. I said thats mine, and they only offered me $7100.00 and I am not letting it go for that price.

We both walked inside to confront the sales manager and he immeadiately seperated us, he tried to tell her I wasn't the owner of the car and he told me she was referring to a different car. When he tried to offer me $500.00 more on My trade I began to walk out and the girl was outside again looking at the car, then she saw me open the door, she said what are you doing, I said leaving, she said how this isn't your car, they said it wasn't. I said really... That is why I am holding the keys and the title to it. Now she is visbly upset and we both confront the manager again about the Blatant rip off his company was trying to perpitrate on 2 customers at the sametime. When we asked to speak to the general Manager, we seen someone duck inside an office and slam the door shut.

So anyone in Baltimore, MD stay away from Koons if your trying to trade your vehicle, not only will they try to steal it from you, but they will sell it out from you while your trying to pick your new car.

Gary
Owings Mills, Maryland
U.S.A.

This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 08/27/2004 07:27 PM and is a permanent record located here: https://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/koons-ford/baltimore-maryland-21117/koons-ford-ripoff-shady-trade-in-practices-buyers-beware-baltimore-maryland-105792. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year. Ripoff Report has an exclusive license to this report. It may not be copied without the written permission of Ripoff Report. READ: Foreign websites steal our content

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#11 Consumer Comment

Gary, while you might REALLY like stick shift cars...

AUTHOR: Tim - (U.S.A.)

POSTED: Tuesday, October 16, 2007

The sad fact Gary is that you are incorrect. You are really displaying exactly what the sales manager was talking about...ignorance! You say you bring a NADA guide with you every time you shop for a car and you have been a mustang buyer for 16 years. You say that the NADA guide always ADDS for a stick (manual transmission). I just looked at nadaguides(dot)com and guess what? You are wrong!

As of today, in Owings Mills, MD the DEDUCT for a manual transmission on a 2003 Ford Mustang V6 coupe is $525. I can only imagine that back when you posted this report (when your car was worth more than it is now) the deduct was much higher as well, since they usually represent a percentage of total value. While you may be a stick shift enthusiast (I applaud you, I am too) you sir are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Let's look at trade-ins from a dealers point of view (and before you label me, no I do not work for a dealership). Why on Earth would a dealer try to offer you significantly less than your car is "worth?" By doing that, two things happen: 1) they miss the opportunity to sell you the car you wanted to trade for, and 2) they lose the opportunity to sell your trade.

So by "trying to steal" your car from you (or, more likely, just telling you what you don't want to hear because you like your car) they piss you off, and in doing so, sell no cars. Has it occurred to you that they know more about a car's value (especially the brand they sell) than you do? If your car was worth more than that, they would have given it to you so that they could sell the new car and your trade!

Some car dealers are crooked, sure. But most are not. Be realistic. If you say you are educated, educate yourself, otherwise it is transparent (you obviously NEVER looked at a NADA guide on your car. if you had, you would have seen DEDUCT). Don't be ignorant. You do not know enough about the car business to be on this site making these outrageous claims.

Oh, and by the way, MSO stands for "Manufacturers Statement of Origin" not "...shipping order." Do your homework first.

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#10 Consumer Comment

Rob, Get your information straight... add for Stick

AUTHOR: Gary - (U.S.A.)

POSTED: Monday, September 13, 2004

For any Mustang be it V-6 or V-8 you add for Stick Deduct for automatic.

Mustangs are held in high regard and are considered the only affordable american sports car still available.

40 years this car has graced the american roadways and no matter what book you look in, it says ADD for Manual transmission.

No one buys an Automatic Mustang unless it is a man in a midlife crisis or some younger female or mid 40's woman wanting to re-find her youth.

Most Mustang buyers are males between the age of 18-24 and they want STICK. So to say it is a deduction, you are a fool and should quit selling cars while you are ahead. I would have walked out of your dealership in 5 minutes after hearing that.

I always bring an NADA or galves report and it is ADD for Stick, Mustang coupe or GT Coupe.

Learn your cars before you comment. As an avid mustang buyer for 16 years plus, I know more about those cars than the service manager at any ford dealer ever will.
-------------------------------------------------
Folks this is a prime example of a salesman trying to defend the practices of how they try to swindle a customer.

Learn as much about your car so you can haggle the trade price, but don't let them try to give you auction value or Fair value when you have a cream puff for a car.

Why let them make big $$$$$ profit off you on the sale of the new car and take your trade as well. Just so they can line their pockets even more.

Also... STAY AWAY FROM LEASING. Delaers want you to lease... It is more profitable for them.

Stop letting them get over on us, hold them to the same standard you would hold your personal bank, or a trusted family friend or member. When people start walking on the dealers, they will shape up their act.

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#9 Consumer Comment

Mr. car Dealer in NJ

AUTHOR: Gary - (U.S.A.)

POSTED: Monday, September 13, 2004

First off, My car has only 19000 Miles on it, so the figure you quoted is useless and inaccurate based on the details of my car.

2nd every bit of information I listed is 100 accurate because I at one time sold cars, and I hold car dealers in the same league as lawyers... they are all Scurvy Shysters.

How can you base a trade on auction value when you will turn around and slap that car on the used lot for $13,995 or as high as $14,995, with a straight face. Any customer that would allow you a profit of $5,000 - $6,000 on their trade needs to get eductaed..

As far as holdback, Holdback is a lot more than $400-$800 on a mustang, and if you don't sell that car within the 1st 30 days of receiving it from the factory then you have to use the holdback money. If you sell the car within the 1st 30days, the holdback is a profit for you. that is why I encourage people to look on the door of the car to see the Mfg. date, then add 8-10 weeks to the date and that will give them an approx date the car arrived at the dealer. Once they know that then they can BARGAIN a little more.

Dealers should not be allowed a profit of more than $800 per vehicle period, because they really do nothing for you after the sale. I know you are going to comeback with well, we service the vehicle and blah blah blah... If someone buys a new car with a factory warranty uyou have to service the car, the MFG pays you to do it. Although the MFG only pays you based on their specs, they still pay you.

Dealers do nothing for their customers, You rip them off for every penny you can get, then you crack jokes about them behind their backs in the Sales Mgr office.

Does this sound familiar, I bet it does.

People listen and listen good, these dealers would shyster you to your last gold filling if they could. They care nothing about you, you're just another sale. Don't let them scam you into paying above MSRP buy adding, Prep fee's and other bull. Dealers have to prep the car for delivery, the MFG pays them too, and that includes a full tank of gas. Don't let the dealer tell you that extra $100 or $1000 bucks is for prep of the vehicle, it isn't. It is soft pad money. It allows the dealer to make more profit on the vehicle sold. The Mfg pays them a set fee to prep the vehicle and fill it up. That prep includes:

Washing, Waxing/Detailing the vehicle for delivery, explaining to the customer how the vehicle operates, and giving the customer a full tank of gas. Most of the time Mfg's also include first oil change monies so your first oil change is free. However, not all MFg's offer the oil change money... Ford is one of them Gm doesn't.

So before you go jumping on the first thing you see... Go look elsewhere. Also word of advice, if the dealership has a large line-up or numerous showrooms, yes they can give you a better price because they buy larger inventories, however, they tend to offer the worst service. So if your looking for price, then that's fine, but if your looking for service after the sale... look to the little guy, because he is more apt to be there after the sale. Larger dealerships have a sales staff turnover rate that is so high it make Mickey D's and Burger King look like they have lifelong employees.

So the Mr. Car dealer in NJ... Save your breath, because I will make sure that everyone knows just how shday you people really are. Actually they already know, but need a little more information so it can be fully exposed.


Oh Yeah I almost forgot... The Special Finiance bank Mr. jersey was referring to is banks that specialize in credit risk finance. Dealers will try to put most buyers through there, especially 1st time buyers, because those banks give the dealers a kickback on the 21% interest rates they charge.

All the Major Mfg Finance companies like.. GMAC and FMCC offer first time buyer programs with little money down ($500 - $1000) and low interest rates. So make sure you specifiy that you want those banks. *** Gmac and Fmcc really only do Ford or Gm cars. So don't expect GMAC to finance a Hyundai.

BTW to the guys Behind Rip Off Report, My hats off to you, for now these shysters can truly be exposed for what they are.... SCUM!

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#8 Consumer Comment

Show me where I condone scamming or rippiing people off.

AUTHOR: Rob - (U.S.A.)

POSTED: Wednesday, September 01, 2004

I DON'T WORK FOR KOONS. However, Gary's letter implies ALL car dealers are crooked. They're not..

First off, your comment of rdr'ing cars to the wrong address is uncalled for. Yes I know some dealers do it. I DON'T. Where do you come off accusing me of doing that. If I were doing what you said, I'd be at 100%. Next, where do I condone ripping people off????? Personally, I'd rather the scammers be put out of business. It just makes more people that feel EVERY car dealership scams. "Foot note to all car buyers:
Be very careful when you go to any car dealer. Always read everything twice. Make sure that you also get copies of EVERYTHING you sign. " I COULDN'T AGREE MORE!!!! When you buy a house, you have a lawyer to read over the contracts. But when you buy a car, you don't even read the paperwork????????????
Anyway, my dealership ISN'T on here, and I don't have the issues posted. There was misinformation in Gary's post, and I posted what I know above.

Looks like you need to check your little attitude at the door and check yourself from the neck up. The only thing I could see being taken as being a scammer is that I said a dealership is not a charitable organization.

Do I like your work at ripoffreport? I like fradulent dealers getting exposed. Why not? First off, it eliminates my competition. Second off, educated people are better customers. It's much easier to put together a deal when both parties are being realistic. It has been my experience that when people have done their homework, they don't come in looking for a 45000 car and won't pay more than $350 a month. They know what they want and what they'll pay. And they are generally realistic.

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#7 Consumer Suggestion

Hey Rob you need a Check-up from the Neck-up

AUTHOR: Stick Rip-off Report Consumer Advocate - (U.S.A.)

POSTED: Wednesday, September 01, 2004

Gary I have been a Rip Off Report Consumer Advocate for a few years now and I have seen many tricks and scams in the auto industry. I took the time to post what I feel might be some good info for you to read. Go to the below URL's

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/predawn/F89/koons.txt

http://www.dot.gov/affairs/1998/nht1398.htm

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff47990.htm

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff14216.htm

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff93778.htm

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff38475.htm

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff5143.htm

Rob you posted that you like to keep your CSI over 95%. How do you do that? Sounds like you like to defend auto dealer deception. Have you ever burnt any of your RDR cards?

Have you ever placed FALSE phone numbers FALSE addresses on the RDR cards that went to the car maker? Do you make sure that all of your UNHAPPY car buyers have correct contact information on all of the RDR cards that you send to the car manufacture? Do you make sure that all of your unhappy car buyers get a CSI survey, Tell the truth Rob!

If a car dealer sees to it that the UNHAPPY car buyers never get any kind of CSI survey, they the car dealer will see their CSI scores will go up. Their main goal is to see to it that ONLY the HAPPY car buyers get CSI surveys in the mail. Many car dealers will also tell the car buyer this.

"Hey Mr and MIS car buyer if you can say you are happy on that CSI survey that you will soon be getting in the mail, we will give you a dinner at a local Steak house and a free tank of gas. Just bring the CSI survey to the dealership when you get it in the mail. We will be happy to help you with the paper work and fill it out for you."

Gary Ask Page to look into this car dealer's R.D.R. cards.
Paige Johnson
pjohns29@ford.com
Brand(s): Ford Motor Company
Department: Customer Satisfaction & Technologies
1-313-248-6820 248-735-0168 313-378-6395

Ask Gina to look into this car dealer's R.D.R. cards.
Gina Bonacchi
gbonacch@ford.com
Brand(s): Ford Motor Company
Department: Product Development
1-313-337-1511

Ask Anne if they would want Ford investors to read Rip Off Reports like these before they buy Ford stock?
Anne Bork
abork@ford.com
Brand(s): Ford Motor Company
Department: Investor Relations
1-313-323-8221

Gary trust me, I feel your Ford dealer would NEVER give you the above contact info. I Feel that they do not want Ford big shots to read how you feel.

Hey Rob you like my work here at RipOffReport.com?

By the way Rob you say car dealers don't use fake info to their advantage. I say you need a "Check-up from the Neck-up"

Here below is the proof of a car dealer using fake or should a say Fraudulent info to make more money. Don't come on this web site and try to protect auto dealer deception.

http://www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff52158.htm

Rob go to the above URL and look at the second pic of the car Buyer's Credit application that we had posted. Look at it real good Rob, It was altered behind the car Buyer's back. She never knew that the car dealer's employees took some time to falsify some info on it. Can you say FRAUD Rob?

Foot note to all car buyers:
Be very careful when you go to any car dealer. Always read everything twice. Make sure that you also get copies of EVERYTHING you sign.

Also a heads up on the word "Arbitration" in the auto industry. Most car dealers have this little clause in their car buying contracts that help them Rip you OFF even more.

All you car buyers go to the below URL's and read up on the word "Arbitration" I feel that car dealers use arbitration to help hold your feet to the fire! If you agree to arbitration when buying a car you are giving up your legal rights to take the car dealer to court in most caese. Think twice, act once!

http://www.dcu.org/streetwise/feb2003.html

Read the story called "MANDATORY ARBITRATION"

http://www.courier-journal.com/cjextra/2004projects/byrider/stories/A9-arbitration0613-6034.html

http://www.consumerlaw.org/initiatives/model/arbitration.shtml

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#6 Consumer Comment

Get real Gary, you know everything about the big bad car dealerships

AUTHOR: Rob - (U.S.A.)

POSTED: Tuesday, August 31, 2004

I see you think you know everything about the big bad car dealerships. No, I don't work for Koons, but I do work for a dealership. Let's take a look at your reply.. Let's see, you say all car dealerships are ripping people off. Well, we're certianly not a charitable organization. Just like your business, we have to make a profit. I'd love to see you run your business on the profit margin you seem to think we should. There is certainly the situation where you owe more than your car is worth. And yes, we do add some of it back to the selling price. But without rebates, there's no way you'll be able to add 8000 back to a selling price. Most banks will only let you advance 120% of msrp. Next, about the money down. Some cases, yes you do need money down. Some of my special finance banks require $1000 down from a customer. Trade does not count. Rebate does not count. As far as rustproofing, that you got a point on. Infact, it can void the warranty. BUT, I don't know of a single dealership in PA or NJ that actually sells it. Guess you saw that on the internet. If we're not moving on our price, it's because there's no point. Either it is a car in high demand and even if you don't buy, we'll still sell the car, or the customer's offer is SO ridiculous that until they wake up, why drop your price. If you were selling your used car, and someone offered you a dumb number, you wouldn't sell it. "but if you get the better deal somewhere else drive back by that first dealer in your new car and rub the deal in his face".. How old are you?? 14?? NO dealers make fake invoices. That's illegal. I'd love to know where you come by your fake information. And yes, there is holdback. Generally $400-$800 a car. And, no it's not negotiable. You aren't going to help pay the interest on the cars on my lot that don't sell, so that's what I use it for when I sell a car quick. Most manufacturers no longer will give a rebate back to the customer. Wrong information from you again. That's why pretty much all manufacturers now call them incentives. Personally, I'd rather not have a customer with a bad attitude from the door, so hopefully, you and I will never run into each other. I like to keep my CSI over 95%.

Last but not least, we don't use kelly for trades. We use Galves. It tells us basically what we can get your car at an auction for.

03 Ford Mustang coupe v6- $8750 with 22k on the odometer Deduct $1000 for manual transmission. He sounds pretty on the money to me. And just like you,if we can get the car cheaper, we will.

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#5 Consumer Comment

People Please Wake Up!

AUTHOR: Gary - (U.S.A.)

POSTED: Monday, August 30, 2004

First I would like to Thank Jim for his comments, Yes Jim I am a smart buyer. When I set out to buy a car I walk in knowing what I want, What I will pay, and what I will accept for my trade. anyone who does the opposite is a fool.

To those whom are looking at new cars or used cars. Let me tell you something. Dealers will rip you off the first chance they get... The sad thing is we all know they are crooked yet we don't seem to concern ourselves with it until after the sale and after you have been burned.

You need to prevent yourself from getting to that point. If you owe $15,000 on your car and the dealer offers you $7000.00 don't agree to that. Your getting robbed,and any dealer who said they will pay off your trade is not telling you everything about that "Pay off deal".

1st. A dealer has to pay off your trade anyway, otherwise he cannot get the Title or Lein Release in order to sell the car.

2nd. If you owe $15,000 and the dealer gave you $7000 for your trade that is an $8,000 difference. Guess where that $8,000 difference is going? Right onto the price of your new car. Don't think the dealer is gonna eat $8k, that will never happen.

Dealers will not change the way they operate unless people start waking up.

Let me ask you this... Have you ever worked out a deal on a car and the salesman brings you a piece paper with 3 sets of payments, but to meet those payments you want, you have to put Thousands of dollars down.. You know why.. It is just more Cash in his pocket. Those payments would be just the same without that enormous amount of money down if you negotiate your deal correctly.

Dealers have found newer ways to get rich off the public, the schemes of old are out, and the new stuff is trickier than ever before. Dealers are tacking on Prep fees for more profit, or saying the vehicle needs this paint protection package in order to be sold. Did you know you do not need to purchase a rust proofing package... the Factory already applies it when the car is built and it is guaranteed for a specified amount of time. Read your warranty manuals!

The best scheme Dealers have going for them now is the Use of the kellybluebook.com trade Value. Dealers will only input the information into Kelly Blue Book as a "Fair Condition" Vehicle. This way they get the smallest Amount. Goto Kelly Blue Books website and check the Value yourself. Be honest when you fill out the information. if your car is Fair then list it as Fair, If it is good, Then it is good, If you keep it clean and buff it with a Diaper, then choose excellent... Watch the differences in Trade value between those Conditions, it is amazing.

Another thing you need to really do is... If the dealer is not moving on his price whether for the car or your trade... just get up and leave. Let him know.. your not the only Dealer, I will go somewhere else, He maynot care, but if you get the better deal somewhere else drive back by that first dealer in your new car and rub the deal in his face. Another thing to remember is this... That Car you want is always available, even at another dealer. When Dealer A needs a Car Dealer B might have they do a trade, Dealer A offers DB one of his cars to get that car he needs to sell you. So that car is always available, don't let the dealer bully you otherwise.

Here is one last piece of Real Info you are never told and never know.

MSRP vs INVOICE. Have you ever seen an advertisement stating "$500 below Factory invoice"? I know you have. Well The dealer isn't truly telling you which invoice he is using. Some Dealers make up there own Invoicves, so they can fool customers.

When a Dealer is shipped a Car from the MFG he is supplied with an MSO (Manufacturing Shipping Order) this document looks like a certificate of title and is shipped with every new car. Attached to that MSO is the true invoice for that vehicle. That invoice details cost tomake the car and what the dealer paid for it. Also on that document is another item some call the "Holdback Invoice Price" Which I will refer to as "HIP". The HIP price is a sum usually $800 - $1400 more than the dealer pays for the vehicle. The dealer buys his inventory on credit, He is allowed so much hold back to make "Interest payments" on the vehicle. If the dealer sells the Vehicle within the 1st 30 days of receiving it, he gets all the hold back as profit. See the forumla Below:

Car Cost (MFG) $15,400
Deal Cost $16,400
Invoice price $18,300
MSRP (Sticker)$20,700

The "Invoice Price" is another wierd scenario all together. Invoice price is for when a Car has sat on a Dealers lot for months and hasn't sold. This is the lowest a dealer can sell a car for to break even. If you noticed there is a $1900 Gap between Deal Cost and Invoice. This is a second holdback for Long term inventory. "Only General motors does this with there Cars, FORD and Chrylser do not."

Now There is also Rebates, Rebates are incentives from the factory. If factories are keeping costs down they offer great rebates to the consumer, Rebates are never calculated into the Invoice system for cars, that is a seperate entity.

Basically folks, Never let a dealer give you wholesale value for your trade, but have him expect you to pay Retail for his car. Never let a dealer tell you, "You need money Down", That is what Rebates are for. Dealers are using the rabtes to make you think your getting a deal on the car. Rebates are for after the fact, If you choose to apply the rebate to the purchase price of the car that is your option, you do not have to do that. Since rebates began everyone has always applied the rebate, so dealer took advantage of that.

Next time your looking, demand to see all those items I listed, and also Value your trade, yourself using the same website the dealers use.

Don't let a dealer take you. it is time we start holding them to the same standrad we would hold any other business. This tolerance for letting them rip us off, has got to stop. If enough people start saying NO instead of.. Ok I guess so, Dealers would be kssing your feet to buy a car. as it is right now, they look at you as a piece of paper to pick the sticky Gum off their shoes.

WAKE UP! you'll thank me for it.

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#4 Consumer Comment

People Please Wake Up!

AUTHOR: Gary - (U.S.A.)

POSTED: Monday, August 30, 2004

First I would like to Thank Jim for his comments, Yes Jim I am a smart buyer. When I set out to buy a car I walk in knowing what I want, What I will pay, and what I will accept for my trade. anyone who does the opposite is a fool.

To those whom are looking at new cars or used cars. Let me tell you something. Dealers will rip you off the first chance they get... The sad thing is we all know they are crooked yet we don't seem to concern ourselves with it until after the sale and after you have been burned.

You need to prevent yourself from getting to that point. If you owe $15,000 on your car and the dealer offers you $7000.00 don't agree to that. Your getting robbed,and any dealer who said they will pay off your trade is not telling you everything about that "Pay off deal".

1st. A dealer has to pay off your trade anyway, otherwise he cannot get the Title or Lein Release in order to sell the car.

2nd. If you owe $15,000 and the dealer gave you $7000 for your trade that is an $8,000 difference. Guess where that $8,000 difference is going? Right onto the price of your new car. Don't think the dealer is gonna eat $8k, that will never happen.

Dealers will not change the way they operate unless people start waking up.

Let me ask you this... Have you ever worked out a deal on a car and the salesman brings you a piece paper with 3 sets of payments, but to meet those payments you want, you have to put Thousands of dollars down.. You know why.. It is just more Cash in his pocket. Those payments would be just the same without that enormous amount of money down if you negotiate your deal correctly.

Dealers have found newer ways to get rich off the public, the schemes of old are out, and the new stuff is trickier than ever before. Dealers are tacking on Prep fees for more profit, or saying the vehicle needs this paint protection package in order to be sold. Did you know you do not need to purchase a rust proofing package... the Factory already applies it when the car is built and it is guaranteed for a specified amount of time. Read your warranty manuals!

The best scheme Dealers have going for them now is the Use of the kellybluebook.com trade Value. Dealers will only input the information into Kelly Blue Book as a "Fair Condition" Vehicle. This way they get the smallest Amount. Goto Kelly Blue Books website and check the Value yourself. Be honest when you fill out the information. if your car is Fair then list it as Fair, If it is good, Then it is good, If you keep it clean and buff it with a Diaper, then choose excellent... Watch the differences in Trade value between those Conditions, it is amazing.

Another thing you need to really do is... If the dealer is not moving on his price whether for the car or your trade... just get up and leave. Let him know.. your not the only Dealer, I will go somewhere else, He maynot care, but if you get the better deal somewhere else drive back by that first dealer in your new car and rub the deal in his face. Another thing to remember is this... That Car you want is always available, even at another dealer. When Dealer A needs a Car Dealer B might have they do a trade, Dealer A offers DB one of his cars to get that car he needs to sell you. So that car is always available, don't let the dealer bully you otherwise.

Here is one last piece of Real Info you are never told and never know.

MSRP vs INVOICE. Have you ever seen an advertisement stating "$500 below Factory invoice"? I know you have. Well The dealer isn't truly telling you which invoice he is using. Some Dealers make up there own Invoicves, so they can fool customers.

When a Dealer is shipped a Car from the MFG he is supplied with an MSO (Manufacturing Shipping Order) this document looks like a certificate of title and is shipped with every new car. Attached to that MSO is the true invoice for that vehicle. That invoice details cost tomake the car and what the dealer paid for it. Also on that document is another item some call the "Holdback Invoice Price" Which I will refer to as "HIP". The HIP price is a sum usually $800 - $1400 more than the dealer pays for the vehicle. The dealer buys his inventory on credit, He is allowed so much hold back to make "Interest payments" on the vehicle. If the dealer sells the Vehicle within the 1st 30 days of receiving it, he gets all the hold back as profit. See the forumla Below:

Car Cost (MFG) $15,400
Deal Cost $16,400
Invoice price $18,300
MSRP (Sticker)$20,700

The "Invoice Price" is another wierd scenario all together. Invoice price is for when a Car has sat on a Dealers lot for months and hasn't sold. This is the lowest a dealer can sell a car for to break even. If you noticed there is a $1900 Gap between Deal Cost and Invoice. This is a second holdback for Long term inventory. "Only General motors does this with there Cars, FORD and Chrylser do not."

Now There is also Rebates, Rebates are incentives from the factory. If factories are keeping costs down they offer great rebates to the consumer, Rebates are never calculated into the Invoice system for cars, that is a seperate entity.

Basically folks, Never let a dealer give you wholesale value for your trade, but have him expect you to pay Retail for his car. Never let a dealer tell you, "You need money Down", That is what Rebates are for. Dealers are using the rabtes to make you think your getting a deal on the car. Rebates are for after the fact, If you choose to apply the rebate to the purchase price of the car that is your option, you do not have to do that. Since rebates began everyone has always applied the rebate, so dealer took advantage of that.

Next time your looking, demand to see all those items I listed, and also Value your trade, yourself using the same website the dealers use.

Don't let a dealer take you. it is time we start holding them to the same standrad we would hold any other business. This tolerance for letting them rip us off, has got to stop. If enough people start saying NO instead of.. Ok I guess so, Dealers would be kssing your feet to buy a car. as it is right now, they look at you as a piece of paper to pick the sticky Gum off their shoes.

WAKE UP! you'll thank me for it.

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#3 Consumer Comment

People Please Wake Up!

AUTHOR: Gary - (U.S.A.)

POSTED: Monday, August 30, 2004

First I would like to Thank Jim for his comments, Yes Jim I am a smart buyer. When I set out to buy a car I walk in knowing what I want, What I will pay, and what I will accept for my trade. anyone who does the opposite is a fool.

To those whom are looking at new cars or used cars. Let me tell you something. Dealers will rip you off the first chance they get... The sad thing is we all know they are crooked yet we don't seem to concern ourselves with it until after the sale and after you have been burned.

You need to prevent yourself from getting to that point. If you owe $15,000 on your car and the dealer offers you $7000.00 don't agree to that. Your getting robbed,and any dealer who said they will pay off your trade is not telling you everything about that "Pay off deal".

1st. A dealer has to pay off your trade anyway, otherwise he cannot get the Title or Lein Release in order to sell the car.

2nd. If you owe $15,000 and the dealer gave you $7000 for your trade that is an $8,000 difference. Guess where that $8,000 difference is going? Right onto the price of your new car. Don't think the dealer is gonna eat $8k, that will never happen.

Dealers will not change the way they operate unless people start waking up.

Let me ask you this... Have you ever worked out a deal on a car and the salesman brings you a piece paper with 3 sets of payments, but to meet those payments you want, you have to put Thousands of dollars down.. You know why.. It is just more Cash in his pocket. Those payments would be just the same without that enormous amount of money down if you negotiate your deal correctly.

Dealers have found newer ways to get rich off the public, the schemes of old are out, and the new stuff is trickier than ever before. Dealers are tacking on Prep fees for more profit, or saying the vehicle needs this paint protection package in order to be sold. Did you know you do not need to purchase a rust proofing package... the Factory already applies it when the car is built and it is guaranteed for a specified amount of time. Read your warranty manuals!

The best scheme Dealers have going for them now is the Use of the kellybluebook.com trade Value. Dealers will only input the information into Kelly Blue Book as a "Fair Condition" Vehicle. This way they get the smallest Amount. Goto Kelly Blue Books website and check the Value yourself. Be honest when you fill out the information. if your car is Fair then list it as Fair, If it is good, Then it is good, If you keep it clean and buff it with a Diaper, then choose excellent... Watch the differences in Trade value between those Conditions, it is amazing.

Another thing you need to really do is... If the dealer is not moving on his price whether for the car or your trade... just get up and leave. Let him know.. your not the only Dealer, I will go somewhere else, He maynot care, but if you get the better deal somewhere else drive back by that first dealer in your new car and rub the deal in his face. Another thing to remember is this... That Car you want is always available, even at another dealer. When Dealer A needs a Car Dealer B might have they do a trade, Dealer A offers DB one of his cars to get that car he needs to sell you. So that car is always available, don't let the dealer bully you otherwise.

Here is one last piece of Real Info you are never told and never know.

MSRP vs INVOICE. Have you ever seen an advertisement stating "$500 below Factory invoice"? I know you have. Well The dealer isn't truly telling you which invoice he is using. Some Dealers make up there own Invoicves, so they can fool customers.

When a Dealer is shipped a Car from the MFG he is supplied with an MSO (Manufacturing Shipping Order) this document looks like a certificate of title and is shipped with every new car. Attached to that MSO is the true invoice for that vehicle. That invoice details cost tomake the car and what the dealer paid for it. Also on that document is another item some call the "Holdback Invoice Price" Which I will refer to as "HIP". The HIP price is a sum usually $800 - $1400 more than the dealer pays for the vehicle. The dealer buys his inventory on credit, He is allowed so much hold back to make "Interest payments" on the vehicle. If the dealer sells the Vehicle within the 1st 30 days of receiving it, he gets all the hold back as profit. See the forumla Below:

Car Cost (MFG) $15,400
Deal Cost $16,400
Invoice price $18,300
MSRP (Sticker)$20,700

The "Invoice Price" is another wierd scenario all together. Invoice price is for when a Car has sat on a Dealers lot for months and hasn't sold. This is the lowest a dealer can sell a car for to break even. If you noticed there is a $1900 Gap between Deal Cost and Invoice. This is a second holdback for Long term inventory. "Only General motors does this with there Cars, FORD and Chrylser do not."

Now There is also Rebates, Rebates are incentives from the factory. If factories are keeping costs down they offer great rebates to the consumer, Rebates are never calculated into the Invoice system for cars, that is a seperate entity.

Basically folks, Never let a dealer give you wholesale value for your trade, but have him expect you to pay Retail for his car. Never let a dealer tell you, "You need money Down", That is what Rebates are for. Dealers are using the rabtes to make you think your getting a deal on the car. Rebates are for after the fact, If you choose to apply the rebate to the purchase price of the car that is your option, you do not have to do that. Since rebates began everyone has always applied the rebate, so dealer took advantage of that.

Next time your looking, demand to see all those items I listed, and also Value your trade, yourself using the same website the dealers use.

Don't let a dealer take you. it is time we start holding them to the same standrad we would hold any other business. This tolerance for letting them rip us off, has got to stop. If enough people start saying NO instead of.. Ok I guess so, Dealers would be kssing your feet to buy a car. as it is right now, they look at you as a piece of paper to pick the sticky Gum off their shoes.

WAKE UP! you'll thank me for it.

Respond to this report!
What's this?

#2 Consumer Comment

People Please Wake Up!

AUTHOR: Gary - (U.S.A.)

POSTED: Monday, August 30, 2004

First I would like to Thank Jim for his comments, Yes Jim I am a smart buyer. When I set out to buy a car I walk in knowing what I want, What I will pay, and what I will accept for my trade. anyone who does the opposite is a fool.

To those whom are looking at new cars or used cars. Let me tell you something. Dealers will rip you off the first chance they get... The sad thing is we all know they are crooked yet we don't seem to concern ourselves with it until after the sale and after you have been burned.

You need to prevent yourself from getting to that point. If you owe $15,000 on your car and the dealer offers you $7000.00 don't agree to that. Your getting robbed,and any dealer who said they will pay off your trade is not telling you everything about that "Pay off deal".

1st. A dealer has to pay off your trade anyway, otherwise he cannot get the Title or Lein Release in order to sell the car.

2nd. If you owe $15,000 and the dealer gave you $7000 for your trade that is an $8,000 difference. Guess where that $8,000 difference is going? Right onto the price of your new car. Don't think the dealer is gonna eat $8k, that will never happen.

Dealers will not change the way they operate unless people start waking up.

Let me ask you this... Have you ever worked out a deal on a car and the salesman brings you a piece paper with 3 sets of payments, but to meet those payments you want, you have to put Thousands of dollars down.. You know why.. It is just more Cash in his pocket. Those payments would be just the same without that enormous amount of money down if you negotiate your deal correctly.

Dealers have found newer ways to get rich off the public, the schemes of old are out, and the new stuff is trickier than ever before. Dealers are tacking on Prep fees for more profit, or saying the vehicle needs this paint protection package in order to be sold. Did you know you do not need to purchase a rust proofing package... the Factory already applies it when the car is built and it is guaranteed for a specified amount of time. Read your warranty manuals!

The best scheme Dealers have going for them now is the Use of the kellybluebook.com trade Value. Dealers will only input the information into Kelly Blue Book as a "Fair Condition" Vehicle. This way they get the smallest Amount. Goto Kelly Blue Books website and check the Value yourself. Be honest when you fill out the information. if your car is Fair then list it as Fair, If it is good, Then it is good, If you keep it clean and buff it with a Diaper, then choose excellent... Watch the differences in Trade value between those Conditions, it is amazing.

Another thing you need to really do is... If the dealer is not moving on his price whether for the car or your trade... just get up and leave. Let him know.. your not the only Dealer, I will go somewhere else, He maynot care, but if you get the better deal somewhere else drive back by that first dealer in your new car and rub the deal in his face. Another thing to remember is this... That Car you want is always available, even at another dealer. When Dealer A needs a Car Dealer B might have they do a trade, Dealer A offers DB one of his cars to get that car he needs to sell you. So that car is always available, don't let the dealer bully you otherwise.

Here is one last piece of Real Info you are never told and never know.

MSRP vs INVOICE. Have you ever seen an advertisement stating "$500 below Factory invoice"? I know you have. Well The dealer isn't truly telling you which invoice he is using. Some Dealers make up there own Invoicves, so they can fool customers.

When a Dealer is shipped a Car from the MFG he is supplied with an MSO (Manufacturing Shipping Order) this document looks like a certificate of title and is shipped with every new car. Attached to that MSO is the true invoice for that vehicle. That invoice details cost tomake the car and what the dealer paid for it. Also on that document is another item some call the "Holdback Invoice Price" Which I will refer to as "HIP". The HIP price is a sum usually $800 - $1400 more than the dealer pays for the vehicle. The dealer buys his inventory on credit, He is allowed so much hold back to make "Interest payments" on the vehicle. If the dealer sells the Vehicle within the 1st 30 days of receiving it, he gets all the hold back as profit. See the forumla Below:

Car Cost (MFG) $15,400
Deal Cost $16,400
Invoice price $18,300
MSRP (Sticker)$20,700

The "Invoice Price" is another wierd scenario all together. Invoice price is for when a Car has sat on a Dealers lot for months and hasn't sold. This is the lowest a dealer can sell a car for to break even. If you noticed there is a $1900 Gap between Deal Cost and Invoice. This is a second holdback for Long term inventory. "Only General motors does this with there Cars, FORD and Chrylser do not."

Now There is also Rebates, Rebates are incentives from the factory. If factories are keeping costs down they offer great rebates to the consumer, Rebates are never calculated into the Invoice system for cars, that is a seperate entity.

Basically folks, Never let a dealer give you wholesale value for your trade, but have him expect you to pay Retail for his car. Never let a dealer tell you, "You need money Down", That is what Rebates are for. Dealers are using the rabtes to make you think your getting a deal on the car. Rebates are for after the fact, If you choose to apply the rebate to the purchase price of the car that is your option, you do not have to do that. Since rebates began everyone has always applied the rebate, so dealer took advantage of that.

Next time your looking, demand to see all those items I listed, and also Value your trade, yourself using the same website the dealers use.

Don't let a dealer take you. it is time we start holding them to the same standrad we would hold any other business. This tolerance for letting them rip us off, has got to stop. If enough people start saying NO instead of.. Ok I guess so, Dealers would be kssing your feet to buy a car. as it is right now, they look at you as a piece of paper to pick the sticky Gum off their shoes.

WAKE UP! you'll thank me for it.

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#1 Consumer Suggestion

Everybody Read This!!!!

AUTHOR: Jim - (U.S.A.)

POSTED: Saturday, August 28, 2004

Gary:

You are the prime example of a quality buyer who isn't going to be used as a doormat!

Over and over, when you read these postings you see exactly the opposite. People will knowingly allow themselves to be treated like garbage and then reward the dealer by purchasing the car anyway!

You didn't do that, Gary. You are much too smart a customer. Everyone should be exactly as you!

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