A Non-Mormon teen in a Mormon world UTAH ..exclude and segregate *REBUTTALS *EDitor's comments

when you say this is a complaint log for consumers only, shows you obviously know nothing about the web site you're on! It is not ONLY for consumers that lost money.

this IS NOT a consumer complaint log ONLY regarding lost money. It has categories such as Religious groups, blabber mouth, cheaters, liars, and other categories under which to complain. Even the founder Ed Magedson responded to this post, so obviously he feels it's not stupid. Are you telling him how to run his own web site. You are so WRONG when you say "this is only a complaint log for consumers". How stupid can you be! Look under 'advanced search', and see how many different categories there are. This is a complaint log in general, for all sorts of complaints. Where did you get the idea this was ONLY for consumers losing money?

This is a complaint log for consumer issues and people who have lost their hard earned money to unscrupulous businesses. This is not a web to complain about the church, religion, or any other stupid issue where you have not lost any money.

I now live in Utah. Elizabeth, wow, thank you for putting things in perspective for me. I grew up in Seattle and had a lot of pagen friends. I actually got pulled aside in church once because there was a lesson on being friends with other religions and I commented that my best friend was Wiccan. The bishop was concerned because he didn't know anything about Wicca and wanted me to explain their beliefs to him. I could have been mad at the bishop for being ignorant, but instead I respected him for trying to understand something outside his comfort zone.

I am mad, I am really really pissed off. I spend my life in Washington state having friends of all different religions and no religion. I know more about the religions my friends belong to than most anyone else I know. I enjoy learning about other people's beliefs... and most importantly I am not threatened by them at all.

I am sick to death of having people give a person or persons the title Mormon and say we are all like that. I am furious that in this state when we go to worship we are actually PICKETED! I am mad that my son had people shouting hateful things at him on his way to worship at the tender age of eight. If we were any other church; even pagen such as yourself... it would be a hate crime. They get their hands on our holy garments and desecrate them while picketing us. Let us try that with another religious group shall we? Let us take Jewish holy items and desecrate them while yelling hateful things at their members going to worship. Oh, wait... that is a hate crime. How about let us point at you in the store as in the days of old and tell our children not to talk to you because you are a "witch". Oh, wait... that is a hate crime. Why is it okay with Mormons? How can you justify this?

were very similar to Amanda's.

Unfortunately, perhaps, the best answer is that if you are not a Mormon, do not live in Utah.

"Dumb Yankees" who live in the 'South' have the same problems to a slightly lesser degree. And the funny part is that you won't find a Real Yankee venturing south of Atlantic City, NJ. Yankees won't even live in (state income tax free) FL.

The LDS, like any church has zealots. Like the flamboyant gay man sterotype, the holier-than-thou mormon gives most LDS members a bad name. They are both extremes.

However, living a large part of my life in LDS communities, I do feel that there is a social divide between the LDS and the non. Two and three nights a week my neighbors are at church for one funtion or another. They are so immersed in it that I'm not sure they even realize that they have very little in common with the non-LDS. It's not just a religion, it's a lifestyle.

No religion that I know of encourage studying other faiths. No Koran sightings at Saint Mark's. It's self preservation. Most religions teach that theirs is the only true doctrine. Religion is belief.

As far as the Utah government is concerned, it is democratic. A majority of the voters are LDS. It stands to reason that the laws and policies will reflect LDS values. I'm sorry, Amanda, that you felt alienated, but anytime you live in a non-diverse community, if you are the minority, you will feel excluded. I hope that in the six years since your report was posted that you have found your niche.

The LDS church does not own stock in Coke or tobacco. Women are not subserviant to any man, and don't go off to University looking for an MRS degree...unless they are lame. The LDS church tells young women to educate themselves, and to have some way to provide for themselves. Get your info straight idiots! Every religion is odd, and if you don't agree with it don't join. At the same time you should respect others to believe what they want and not spread untruth about that which you are uneducated about. Quit crying about "Life Behind The Zion Curtain" and move on.

The LDS church does not own stock in Coke or tobacco. Women are not subserviant to any man, and don't go off to University looking for an MRS degree...unless they are lame. The LDS church tells young women to educate themselves, and to have some way to provide for themselves. Get your info straight idiots! Every religion is odd, and if you don't agree with it don't join. At the same time you should respect others to believe what they want and not spread untruth about that which you are uneducated about. Quit crying about "Life Behind The Zion Curtain" and move on.

David, David, David,
You just don't get it. Of course, how could you? You are one of them!

I lived behind the Zion curtain for 37 years. I was forced to go to Mormon church by my mother for 16 of those years. Finally I said enough was enough and refused to go.

That d**n church runs the state. If you are a non-Mormon you are discriminated against. I was not hired for many jobs, which I was highly qualified for, because of not being Mormon!

I am a CNA, My last job, before leaving pitiful Utah for wonderful Oklahoma, I had to work every sunday. Why? Because all of the new CNAs that were hired just had to go to their Mormon church. I had 3 years seniority on these people. I wanted to go to my non-denominational church, since I don't believe in organized religion, but couldn't because of these Mormons. That is until the ACLU stepped in!

So now you tell me just how wonderful this church is.

They are a rip-off in every sense of the word. You just don't see it because you are one of the brainwashed bunch.

David, David, David,
You just don't get it. Of course, how could you? You are one of them!

I lived behind the Zion curtain for 37 years. I was forced to go to Mormon church by my mother for 16 of those years. Finally I said enough was enough and refused to go.

That d**n church runs the state. If you are a non-Mormon you are discriminated against. I was not hired for many jobs, which I was highly qualified for, because of not being Mormon!

I am a CNA, My last job, before leaving pitiful Utah for wonderful Oklahoma, I had to work every sunday. Why? Because all of the new CNAs that were hired just had to go to their Mormon church. I had 3 years seniority on these people. I wanted to go to my non-denominational church, since I don't believe in organized religion, but couldn't because of these Mormons. That is until the ACLU stepped in!

So now you tell me just how wonderful this church is.

They are a rip-off in every sense of the word. You just don't see it because you are one of the brainwashed bunch.

David, David, David,
You just don't get it. Of course, how could you? You are one of them!

I lived behind the Zion curtain for 37 years. I was forced to go to Mormon church by my mother for 16 of those years. Finally I said enough was enough and refused to go.

That d**n church runs the state. If you are a non-Mormon you are discriminated against. I was not hired for many jobs, which I was highly qualified for, because of not being Mormon!

I am a CNA, My last job, before leaving pitiful Utah for wonderful Oklahoma, I had to work every sunday. Why? Because all of the new CNAs that were hired just had to go to their Mormon church. I had 3 years seniority on these people. I wanted to go to my non-denominational church, since I don't believe in organized religion, but couldn't because of these Mormons. That is until the ACLU stepped in!

So now you tell me just how wonderful this church is.

They are a rip-off in every sense of the word. You just don't see it because you are one of the brainwashed bunch.

David, David, David,
You just don't get it. Of course, how could you? You are one of them!

I lived behind the Zion curtain for 37 years. I was forced to go to Mormon church by my mother for 16 of those years. Finally I said enough was enough and refused to go.

That d**n church runs the state. If you are a non-Mormon you are discriminated against. I was not hired for many jobs, which I was highly qualified for, because of not being Mormon!

I am a CNA, My last job, before leaving pitiful Utah for wonderful Oklahoma, I had to work every sunday. Why? Because all of the new CNAs that were hired just had to go to their Mormon church. I had 3 years seniority on these people. I wanted to go to my non-denominational church, since I don't believe in organized religion, but couldn't because of these Mormons. That is until the ACLU stepped in!

So now you tell me just how wonderful this church is.

They are a rip-off in every sense of the word. You just don't see it because you are one of the brainwashed bunch.

David,

You're wrong. This is a forum for people to air out what they feel are wrongs. Rip-Off isn't just about money. It's about self-esteem too. A man that talked to lizards and found golden tablets in a cave founded the church. The church is eager to get their hands on all things that refute their beliefs, like The Salamander Papers for one. They strongly suggest tithing of 10%. This money is to help support a church founded under visions Joseph Smith had. You choose to call him a prophet but if it happened today he would be locked up for being crazy. Now giving that kind of money to this church is a rip-off.

What is also a rip-off is how this religion goes out of it's way to refute the beliefs of others by going to their countries and trying to change the way they believe. When have Muslims. Buddhist or Atheist last knocked on your door and asked you to change your religion? How pretentious. The word cult is often used with them though personally I think most churches fit. If they are a cult it's because they tend to be rather clannish.

The women lose their sense of identity by becoming subservient to men. Hey if that's what 2 people want ok, but to teach it is a rip off. LDS women go to college to get their MRS. Hopefully to a returning missionary. Now that's a rip-off too.

This is a rip-off report poster. If The Mormon Church ripped you off by some monetary consideration than you should talk about it here, but it doesn't look like they asked for any contributions or took any money from you.

You live in Utah- the Mormon Capital of the world; deal with it- I am sure there are others in your shoes who do just fine. If you want to vent about your neighbors call your friend or mother.

The attitude and resistance you feel from the Mormon's is stereotypical of any religion. But you wouln't know that being raised in Utah. More so, it is stereotypical of any society that has strong values and beliefs, whether religious or not.

I have a Mormon friend who served a mission in Japan. He commented how the people thought he was so weird because he would not smoke, drink, have sex prior to marriage, and be so diligent with his religion (only old people did that!). Most thought he was deluded for having such personal convictions. You don't see him posting bigoted remarks online about the Japanese people, especially not on a consumer alert website.

While I understand you have difficulty with people that tend to want to single people out for not doing as they do (see the Jews of the Old Testament for great examples of that, or the Christians with Christ before they preached to the Gentiles in the New Testament, or the Muslims in the Qur'an), your complaint here is not only inappropriately placed, but also myopic in scope and immature in nature.

There are blogs and forums online that enjoy disparaging other religions, go get a membership there and post to your hearts content.

Going back to the reason this was all generated... Amanda, you are doing the right thing in sticking to what you believe in. I was married to a morman man, and I do not practice any religion, and I live in Arizona not too far from the Temple, so I understand what you are saying about feeling like an outcast. His family looked down on me, and convinced him that I was a bad person because I have tattoos and smoke cigarettes. I also drink coffee, and that was not all right. They looked down on me because I would not change for their sake. Do I believe in God? Of course. Do I feel that every person should stop and take care of anyone that needs help? I would give you the shirt off my back if you needed it. I have helped friends in bad situations, helped strangers on the street, donate what little spare time I have to charity, and overall just try to make every day a pleasent one. However, no matter what I did, they could not see past the ink on my skin, and I was going to hell (or whatever they call it). I left my now ex-husband, practice my own beliefs (that circles mainly around karma), try to be the best person I can for myself and my son, and because I did not compromise myself, my standards, or my beliefs, I am a happy person.
At the end of the day, when all is said and done the only person that you have to answer to is yourself. You don't have to compromise your beliefs to fit in or blend or any other thing. If you are happy with yourself and strive to be the best person you can be than nothing anyone else says should matter. If they can't accept you for who you are, and you have done nothing wrong, you have to question if it's you they are unhappy with, or if it's themselves. Stay strong, you'll appreciate yourself for it later.

I don't know a lot about LDS, but my husband had an ex-girlfriend who was a devout Mormon, and tried to get him involved on numerous occasions. I had never thought much one way or the other about Mormons (I'm a Baptist), but out of curiosity, I picked up the book "The God Makers" by Ed Decker and Dave Hunt. I was SHOCKED by what it said. I realized that you can't always believe everything you read, but if there is any truth to this book at all, it is worth your time to have a look.

I'm just posting this as a suggestion; I'm not commenting on the religion or the people. But if you are at all curious about the church, read this book. I think there is a Part 2 now, but I've only read the first one.

And Amanda, I enjoyed reading your post; I was really moved.

Amanda,

Allow me to begin by stating that I am so very sorry for all you have dealt with living as a minority. My religion makes me a minority in pretty much every town I have lived in (I am a Pagan)and I understand how discrimination based on religion can be a very bitter pill to swallow. I sympathize with your situation but I point out to you this - You have learned a valuable lesson at a young age and that is that tolerance is a blessed gift. While I very much believe that my faith is the true way I also very much believe that it may not be the true way for you. Learning important life lessons such as this when you are young will make you a much wiser, kinder and accepting person. Consider yourself blessed to have learned from this bad experience and look forward to being able to teach this to others. I also must say that I very much respect your posting. You are very right that it is not the church teachings that are wrong but some of the practices.


I also have to say to Emily from Wichita - Thank goodness there are other Mormons that have posted on this site so that I know you are not indicative of what a Mormon practices or believes. If you were the poster representative for the Mormon Church I would probably have a much different view of their religion. While I admire your passion for your religion and think this is a wonderful thing for you to have I do think you should take a moment to look at Jesus and how he lived his life. Some of the postings you have put on this site are very hateful. Jesus did not live with hate in his heart and he offered forgiveness to ALL. I think you should ponder these concepts.


Remember this -

The test of courage comes when we are in the minority. The test of tolerance comes when we are in the majority.

I'm not totally sure what she wrote.

I do know that as a member of the LDS Church I should understand that God is a practical application, therefore anything the church says can be right or wrong, or anyone else, or myself.

Is this about 2 things: life as non-mormon or life as mormon, and what is best? Or is it about something more?

Life as non-mormon, or a non-religion, can't be bad, if your a law abiding citizen and respectful of others, yet there might be much more missing too.

Life as a mormon or another religion might be worse, or good, as mormon there is 168 hours to every week, yet church service could only be 3 hours or less, 165 hours or more or less, are used for your interests.

What do Church people become, are they silly, are they kind, do they become something, good or bad.

Church has rules of conducts, would they accept them, would the rules be practical or just be something to believe and do, or know what is right or wrong, that God is knowledge, that God, is a concept only, yet a practical application, its more than just a concept, its action, therefore spiritual, a help for someone, or do they prefer to alter reality to fit there purpose.

Its a fact of life we ignore people of different interests, sometimes. Or is it good or bad to ignore or avoid, as a good church member, was the knowledege behind it a good reason. Some people do things we should not do, and expect us to accept it, was ignore or avoid it, a good reason. Do we makeup reasons to ignore or avoid people for no good reason, or think and do what is best.

Some people ignore people and things to maintain being a good Church member because there is difference between right and wrong, or prefer to alter reality to fit the purpose of making something wrong acceptable

Is it good or bad to do what one pleases, and only be bad when found to be disrespectful of others.

The Church has been around a long time, anything can be fake, or anything can be real, yet people believe something that cause people to ignore or avoid people from there beliefs, yet some people have the right ideas. God can't be both, or something vain, its action, spiritual, a practical application, some alter reality to fit there need, remember its about people, and the real world, not about alter reality to fit your purpose.

There are more things I could think of and write, I just pray I wrote what I should.

I'm U.S. Air Force Vet. living in S.L.C., I have live in many other state and countries while I was avtive duty as well as prior to and after.I have lived in ut for almost 4 yrs.

I have never lived anywhere else in my life where people look down thier noses, back stab, gossip, and put thier noses where they don't belong. In this state you had better be Mormon or your looking at a very lonely life or at least not a very social one. I must say I met my husband here and thak god he's not LDS. People in general are very nice here until you get look under the surface, then you find if you don't begin to come around to thier way of thinking then you are outcasted. It can and does affect your job and weather you get hired or promoted.

I think any religion that won't let you have people to your wedding who are either Lds and haven't beenthrough the temple, member who are not in good standing, and are not LDS. LDS have a temple wedding and that is the real wedding. So that means if your Mom, Dad, Sister, Grandparent, or anyone who loves you can't even see the wedding.

The LDS church is deffently about money! I worked in a nurseing home and the LDS would only help those in need for the Holidays that where LDS and they had to be LDS in good standing and from thier ward. What kind crap is that? You give to people in need, it shouldn't matter what they believe only that they are in need!

I think a church that doesn't believe you should smoke d**n well shouldn't own stock in the cigarettes companies, and they're not to have caffine, but chocolate and coke are ok. Utah has the highest candy consumption of any other state. Caffines a stimulent, so is sugar!?!

The church influences what products that can be sent and purchase here, and even what movies are shown. There was a movie released last year about a person who was LDS and Gay I believe, not sure because I couldn't go see it because the Church had it pulled from all theaters in the state. What kind of crap is that? If the U.S. government (you no THE PEOPLE) have deemed it leagal how come I can't even buy a clove cigarette in this state, but I can anywhere else, just toname one. I believe pulling a movie that way is censure-ship!

I lived in the Baptist bible belt and it wasn't even that bad. Live and let live is what I believe, like a person forwhothey are not what they are.

Amanda in Sandy took the time to express her frustrations with an establishment that blatantly twists the arms of the local politicians. After reading her post I must say that I am impressed. At least ONE person paid attention in her English Composition class.

It isn't a big secret that the LDS Church does what it wants. When they wanted to buy up the land to build a new conference center, the pinheads at the hill were breaking eachothers arms to get to the APPROVED stamp. But when the Cathederal of the Madeline wanted to buy a small dirt lot to expand their parking those same pinheads on the hill DENIED their request. No one has the balls to stand up to them. Well, except for the ACLU and look how much luck they are having.

Anyway, Amanda good for you! You are telling like it is. Those that insult and belittle you are just afraid of the truth. Don't let it get to you. Peace!

Steve from Las Vegas says that Mormons are hypocrites. Well I don't want to write this to offend him or anyone else, I am just trying to clarify some points for those of you out there that may be questioning.



I guess there is a "family" (the Smiths) that own (a) supermarket(s), he says that because they sell things such as cigars, cigarettes, alcohol, etc. that they are hypocrites. Granted they don't nessecarily have to be in the supermarket business and sell these items, but that is what they choose to do and to be competitive in the market you have to carry things that people are going to buy. If you didn't like chinesse food and never ate it but owned and ran a chinesse resturant would that make you a hypocrite. I think not, just because they have choosen not to take part in drinking, smoking, etc. because of the way they belive, doesn't mean that they can choose for other people. If they owned a tobacco or a liquior store that may be a different story but if they are mainly selling groceries, which I am assuming is the case considering it is a "supermarket", than you need to be a little more open minded to the "bussiness" aspect of things.



Oh, that brings me to another point, because I know what your thinking, Mormons are all about the money. Well I have news for you! The LDS Church is the ONLY church that does not have paid clergy.



That's right EVERYONE, even the LDS church President and present day Prophet Gordon B. Hinkley does there "job", or if you are a member "calling" for free. For instinse our "Bishop" doesn't get paid for being so, he has an everyday job like you and me. Preists, or what so ever the title may be of other faiths may do that for a living and the church or orginization or whatever pays them to do what they do. The LDS church does not belive that you should have/get to be paid to do the Lords work.



All volunteer, the tithing that you talk about does not go into someones pocket. It is put into a fund for building temples and churches around the world. If the LDS church is so money hungry than why are the members given a choice of whether or not to pay tithing, fast offerings, humanitarian aid, etc. Some LDS members may not feel like they have a choice. Maybe this is where you (Steve) got miss informed. God gave us our free will and that is the ONLY thing that He can not take away form us. Everyone has a choice and every choice has a consequence, good or bad whatever the case maybe.



The church also has what is called fast offerings once a month. You can give if you "choose", just like with tithing, the money that you would have spent on the meals that you are fasting(not eating) for. That money goes to the Branch, Ward, Stake, whatever to help people that are in need. Not just people that are members either by most peoples misconseption.



My mother was going through a very rough time a few years back and she was not a member at the time nor was she even taking the lessons. The church helped her with her bills and getting groceries for almost four months until her disability finaly came through. She was not even obligated to pay the money back but "choose" to so that the money would be there in case someone else needed help.



Tithing is not a concept created by "Mormons". You can read in numurous parts of the HOLY BIBLE about tithing.



For those of you out there that like to bash the LDS church, you need to evaluate your own church if you go to one and not judge the church if you have your own religion, orginization or standards that you live by. In other words if you think that your garments are washed clean and you are perfect then go ahead and pass judgement. I do not judge other people and the ways they live, I feel bad that somewhere along the way Steve got miss-informed or miss-inturpreted something to make him so bitter towards the church. I think it is terrible because bad comments give the WHOLE church a bad name when in reality it was human mistake, on either end.



Like I have said before we all have our free will. There are two elements on the earth, good and evil. If it is positive it is of GOD if it is negative it is of SATAN. Therefore to say that the church "brainwashes" people is saying that Satan is the leader of the LDS church. If you say that than Satan would be the ruler of all the faiths or orginizations or whatever that you do not believe in or agree with. Is this a reasonable statement? I don't think so!



I bear you testimony that this is not true. I know with all my soul that God is my Heavenly Father(we call him this beacuse we are all sons and daughters of God). I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet, that he saw the Lord and Jesus Christ and they indeed spoke to him. I testify that this church is true and that the fullness of the gospel has been restord to us through the hands of Joseph Smith by the Lord. I belive in eternity and eternal families. I love the LDS church and everything that is stands for, and was not "brainwashed" to think so. I have choosen with my own free will to take upon me this life style beliving that it will help me stay on a rightous path so that I can return to my Heavenly Father.



I do not belive that I am better than anyone else and I am ashamed to know that there are LDS members out there that feel that they are. They have obviously missed the boat that came by with the lesson on judging people and being humble. Don't be mad at the religion be upset with the people and pray that they will be inspired to change the way that they feel and be less judgemental and become humble. Those that have that "Holier Than Thou" attitude are just asking for the Lord to humble them. Walk a mile in that persons shoes before you even begin to think about casting any sort of judgement, and if you have walked that mile than remember what the Lord says about passing judgement on others when your garments are not spotless. I always say, better to be humble than be humbled!!!



Well I am sure even though I tried not to I offended someone so I will just appoligize now. I am really sorry and I say that with all my heart. Please if you feel that I have wronged you blame me not the LDS church. God Bless, and by the way please pray for the soilders that are around the world fighting for our country and for the people that have suffered much loss in the natural desasters that have happened.

Former SGT. US Army

Amanda I know exactly where you are coming from! I lived in Utah for 37 years. I moved from "behind the Zion curtain" in 1999. I was forced to join the Mormon church at the age of 6 by my mother. Even as a member of the church I was looked down upon because my dad was Baptist. My dad was a better christian then ANY of those holier than thou fools. He would help anyone that needed his help, if it was in his power to do so. Not the "God Squad". They will only help other Mormons, if they have attended church regularly and have paid tithes.



I was treated badly because I lived on the wrong side of State Street in my ward, Millcreek 6th, even though we had a nicer house than most of the members. As for the caffeine thing, it USED to be in the word of wisdom that you could not drink anything with caffeine in it. That was changed when the church bought stock in Coke.



ANYONE who doesn't live in Utah does not understand the discrimination of this church. If you don't look like them or dress like them or act like them, you are looked down upon. The BIBLE says "love they neighbor" maybe the church should try it sometime instead of judging EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!

Amanda I know exactly where you are coming from! I lived in Utah for 37 years. I moved from "behind the Zion curtain" in 1999. I was forced to join the Mormon church at the age of 6 by my mother. Even as a member of the church I was looked down upon because my dad was Baptist. My dad was a better christian then ANY of those holier than thou fools. He would help anyone that needed his help, if it was in his power to do so. Not the "God Squad". They will only help other Mormons, if they have attended church regularly and have paid tithes.



I was treated badly because I lived on the wrong side of State Street in my ward, Millcreek 6th, even though we had a nicer house than most of the members. As for the caffeine thing, it USED to be in the word of wisdom that you could not drink anything with caffeine in it. That was changed when the church bought stock in Coke.



ANYONE who doesn't live in Utah does not understand the discrimination of this church. If you don't look like them or dress like them or act like them, you are looked down upon. The BIBLE says "love they neighbor" maybe the church should try it sometime instead of judging EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!

Amanda I know exactly where you are coming from! I lived in Utah for 37 years. I moved from "behind the Zion curtain" in 1999. I was forced to join the Mormon church at the age of 6 by my mother. Even as a member of the church I was looked down upon because my dad was Baptist. My dad was a better christian then ANY of those holier than thou fools. He would help anyone that needed his help, if it was in his power to do so. Not the "God Squad". They will only help other Mormons, if they have attended church regularly and have paid tithes.



I was treated badly because I lived on the wrong side of State Street in my ward, Millcreek 6th, even though we had a nicer house than most of the members. As for the caffeine thing, it USED to be in the word of wisdom that you could not drink anything with caffeine in it. That was changed when the church bought stock in Coke.



ANYONE who doesn't live in Utah does not understand the discrimination of this church. If you don't look like them or dress like them or act like them, you are looked down upon. The BIBLE says "love they neighbor" maybe the church should try it sometime instead of judging EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!

Amanda I know exactly where you are coming from! I lived in Utah for 37 years. I moved from "behind the Zion curtain" in 1999. I was forced to join the Mormon church at the age of 6 by my mother. Even as a member of the church I was looked down upon because my dad was Baptist. My dad was a better christian then ANY of those holier than thou fools. He would help anyone that needed his help, if it was in his power to do so. Not the "God Squad". They will only help other Mormons, if they have attended church regularly and have paid tithes.



I was treated badly because I lived on the wrong side of State Street in my ward, Millcreek 6th, even though we had a nicer house than most of the members. As for the caffeine thing, it USED to be in the word of wisdom that you could not drink anything with caffeine in it. That was changed when the church bought stock in Coke.



ANYONE who doesn't live in Utah does not understand the discrimination of this church. If you don't look like them or dress like them or act like them, you are looked down upon. The BIBLE says "love they neighbor" maybe the church should try it sometime instead of judging EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!

The real truth about Mormons is not pretty. I have an inside track... my wifes grandmoms maiden name was Young. We went to the Young family reunions. I spent 22 tears in S.L.C. I AM NOT A MORMON. Ask me what the truth is. There is so much more than you can believe. I ask all Mormons how they can believe what the church writes and says when it's changed to accommodate political and social pressures?





All organized religions are evil and have done things that would make your skin crawl. Religion is in ones self!

Wow! What a long and rediculous thread.



Most of you missed the problem by a mile and got caught up in silly side issues like drinking coke or titles of church officials. How sad.



I was very disappointed that the EDitor threw away any sense of decorum or respectibility and attacked a commentor. Later he came back and educated us on the caffine content of various products. How sad.



One commentor made an interesting assertion that "Contrary to popular belief, no one has a patent on the truth, and each of us must seek our own path." I am sorry sir, but there is only ONE truth and every belief system and individual believes they know it. Your statement implies that nothing is true, so it doesn't matter what path we follow. In the end, some people will have followed the true path.



Back to the issue. The LDS Church and religion in general are not the issues here. Human beings are tribal by nature - us verses them. It is a system we call society. Societies mature and change over time as does the definition of who is "us" and who is "them".



I am sorry that Amanda chose not to fit into the majority society around her, but she is free not to participate. She can sit around and feel sorry for herself or join another society. Even in areas like Utah where you have a strong majority, you can find other people to socialize with.



What is not right is for a minority to impose their will and non-beliefs on the majority because they feel left out or inconvenienced. A responsible majority will respect the rights of the minority and try to accomodate them where they can, but that doesn't mean they should have to change their lives for them. That includes their beliefs, what they eat and what they like to talk about.

Wow! What a long and rediculous thread.



Most of you missed the problem by a mile and got caught up in silly side issues like drinking coke or titles of church officials. How sad.



I was very disappointed that the EDitor threw away any sense of decorum or respectibility and attacked a commentor. Later he came back and educated us on the caffine content of various products. How sad.



One commentor made an interesting assertion that "Contrary to popular belief, no one has a patent on the truth, and each of us must seek our own path." I am sorry sir, but there is only ONE truth and every belief system and individual believes they know it. Your statement implies that nothing is true, so it doesn't matter what path we follow. In the end, some people will have followed the true path.



Back to the issue. The LDS Church and religion in general are not the issues here. Human beings are tribal by nature - us verses them. It is a system we call society. Societies mature and change over time as does the definition of who is "us" and who is "them".



I am sorry that Amanda chose not to fit into the majority society around her, but she is free not to participate. She can sit around and feel sorry for herself or join another society. Even in areas like Utah where you have a strong majority, you can find other people to socialize with.



What is not right is for a minority to impose their will and non-beliefs on the majority because they feel left out or inconvenienced. A responsible majority will respect the rights of the minority and try to accomodate them where they can, but that doesn't mean they should have to change their lives for them. That includes their beliefs, what they eat and what they like to talk about.

Wow! What a long and rediculous thread.



Most of you missed the problem by a mile and got caught up in silly side issues like drinking coke or titles of church officials. How sad.



I was very disappointed that the EDitor threw away any sense of decorum or respectibility and attacked a commentor. Later he came back and educated us on the caffine content of various products. How sad.



One commentor made an interesting assertion that "Contrary to popular belief, no one has a patent on the truth, and each of us must seek our own path." I am sorry sir, but there is only ONE truth and every belief system and individual believes they know it. Your statement implies that nothing is true, so it doesn't matter what path we follow. In the end, some people will have followed the true path.



Back to the issue. The LDS Church and religion in general are not the issues here. Human beings are tribal by nature - us verses them. It is a system we call society. Societies mature and change over time as does the definition of who is "us" and who is "them".



I am sorry that Amanda chose not to fit into the majority society around her, but she is free not to participate. She can sit around and feel sorry for herself or join another society. Even in areas like Utah where you have a strong majority, you can find other people to socialize with.



What is not right is for a minority to impose their will and non-beliefs on the majority because they feel left out or inconvenienced. A responsible majority will respect the rights of the minority and try to accomodate them where they can, but that doesn't mean they should have to change their lives for them. That includes their beliefs, what they eat and what they like to talk about.

Many things can go wrong at church. Things can go right at church, yet misunderstanding happen and strange ideas too. It is written in D&C 89 that Coffee and tea is wrong and includes cola and chocolate, and some other things my Biochemistry Teacher said because it includes the substance, and I did read the Deseret News about that subject from the church leaders and my Biochemistry teacher proved its effect. I think reality is the best judge of anything yet people think they see reality when they don't.



And parts of the Bible are really madeup or how they read and think it says. How can you have better living through fake ideas, someone will see the real from the unreal, then indifference occurs, not to be hurtful, they thought they were helpful or something else. I thought the subject was forever learn yet we can be mislead.



I'm not to be like someone that fakes things I gain by learning, learning is understanding, fake has no substance, just fight and denial. They told me Brigham Young was a scam artist, that they killed Joseph Smith Jr to allow there sins to be acceptable and showed me that if I read D&C 42 and what he wrote and some of smart things he wrote about reality. You see the scam they tried on Joseph Smith Jr he was Anti-polygamy and Anti-slavery, Anti-corruption, yet they warned of death and hell, in this fake concept, that polygamy was good in D&C 131. Read D&C 135 and you see the word "treacherous". Yet you will find that people will think Brigham Young was one of the greats. I'm sure Brigham Young did many good things, you could read a book about all the good things Hitler did or Stalin did or Mao of China did. Yet God is a concept not about overpopulation that creates hate and starvation.



God is a concept, not the supreme being - that is a selfish concept - that Hitler tried and others tried, God is a concept, its spiritual, it cares to make a difference for the better.



Wars have been fight to make it better. Wars have been fought where the concept of devil was their concept of God, the Bible says there is only one God, God is the one that cares, God did not create the devil. God is a concept of knowing the difference between right and wrong and care about someone. God is everywhere because its not the supreme being, its a spirit, action from people to care about others. Anyone can scam someone by use of the word, God. God is a simple concept, some people mislead others as if its of God. God is a simple concept yet it can be altered to appear to be the concept of God. Some people the concept of help others is God, next time help others can be slander, say there the devil. To baptize the died is silly, God is spiritual, action to help others. To marry people after they die is silly, people can't enjoy it, after the spirit is gone its action.

I am a baptized mormon. I have not been to church in six years. I drink and smoke. The bishop across the street comes over and visits me everyday without looking down on me. All I am trying to say is that the LDS church does not teach looking down on others. In fact it teachs to befriend others, invite them to be your friend. These experiances that I have just read about are radical mormons taking stuff way to far. Stay away from people like that whether they are mormon or catholic. People who act "holier-than-thou" are everywhere and they are not just mormons. If you do not believe me look it up. Look up some LDS books and you will find that they do not teach treating non-mormons any different than they would treat a mormon. Remember, I do not practice religion of any sort any more, but I still believe in god and thats all you need.

Alright people.....



First of all I have lived in utah now for 7 almost 8 years. AND I AM MOVING! FINALLY! I am an Ananda Marga, and my neighbors seem to have it in their thick heads that I worship the devil. Every mormon that has come across my path seems to think that I am nothing more than an Alcoholic. All I have ever done is just be myself. I have even been denied employment because I am not LDS. Frankly I am sick of it. I am sick of the church and their members judging me, I am sick of thier rules.... Hell I cant even walk around in Downtown SLC around the temple because of A) the way that I dress (I tend to wear alot of black, some of the buttons can be offenceive I guess.) and B)I tend to use colorful language, and above all C) I smoke. I smoke OUTSIDE. I dont even allow smoking in my own home! Anyways. Keep your religion and beliefs to yourself. Leave the rest of us alone, your way is not the only way and history has proven that.

the mormon religion is like all others....it's all about money. smith's supermarkets are owned by the mormons.....they don't work on sundays , and are against smoking and alcohol....



what does smith's sell? cigars , cigarettes , beer , wine whiskey , etc...and they are open on sundays!! (the alledged day of prayer and rest) i've been to the lds churches with my wife , and the last time we were there (and it's a long story) i told her when we left that i'd never return....



i've done research and they do change the churches history to appease new members. but anymore , it doesn't matter if your white , black , asian or whatever ,



they will accept you as long as the can get their grubby hands into your wallet or pocketbook.....they never even mention "jesus christ".....it's always "heavenly father".....hmmmm.....i wonder if i go out in the woods and claim to have a vision , will people give me 10% or more of their earnings?



research it yourself....utah has one of the highest rates of bankruptcy out of all 50 states....why? because poor souls are literally brainwashed into beliving they can "buy" their way into heaven....oh ,



i'm sorry...the mormons refer to it as the celestial kingdom....why do they switch eveything around?? hmmmm.....makes one think......forget all of this hogwash.....



believe in jesus , and know in your heart right from wrong......you don't need a church or give some organization all of your hard earned money to go to heaven. may god bless , and jesus be watching over you.

Southpark? Yes, see the Southpark episode about Mormons, it wraps it all up for me.



I joined the Mormons(LDS), got baptized. The conclusion on Southpark was--> Who knows how much of that historic crap is true, I'm here for the lifestyle and the people.




If you believe everything in the Bible you are bizarre. ALL religions have hokiness, and the beliefs just lock in our mortality. Follow your heart and remember, if God wants them to have money he will lead them to golden plates.



Oh, and when taking lessons, chose the classes that meet in the relief society room. Softer chairs.

I would like to point out a couple of simple facts. One, if you get any group of people together, it doesn't matter if they are religion based, race based, sports based, problems based or whatever, some of them will be jerks. That is the way life is. You can go anywhere in the world and this is true. It isn't just because you are different; everyone is different from everyone else, not just you. Also, a branch president is a "BRANCH PRESIDENT" because the group he is in charge of is not big enough of him to be a bishop of. Eagle branch, in Alaska, has but 7 members, and is therefore a BRANCH or the LDS church. A bishop is in charge of more people than that. We have the North Pole Ward, which consists of a little over 300 members. That is the difference. Caffine is not something the church preaches against; long ago someone got the idea that since coffee and tea are bad caffine must be the reason. That is a myth. Also, it isn't called the "Mormon Bible" it's called the Book of Mormon. And they aren't really Mormons, that is but a nickname. They are the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. If you are going to critisize, at least do it properly. I do congradulate you on the fact that you knew members of the LDS faith are Christian. That points to the fact that you do know some of the doctrine. However, if you knew more, you would know that other things you said are incorrect, but I don't have the time to go over all of them. If you really want to know, learn directly from the teachings and not from what people tell you. People don't always know what they are saying. And just remember this phrase if people bother you again: THE CHURCH IS PERFECT, NOT THE PEOPLE.

I would like to point out a couple of simple facts. One, if you get any group of people together, it doesn't matter if they are religion based, race based, sports based, problems based or whatever, some of them will be jerks. That is the way life is. You can go anywhere in the world and this is true. It isn't just because you are different; everyone is different from everyone else, not just you. Also, a branch president is a "BRANCH PRESIDENT" because the group he is in charge of is not big enough of him to be a bishop of. Eagle branch, in Alaska, has but 7 members, and is therefore a BRANCH or the LDS church. A bishop is in charge of more people than that. We have the North Pole Ward, which consists of a little over 300 members. That is the difference. Caffine is not something the church preaches against; long ago someone got the idea that since coffee and tea are bad caffine must be the reason. That is a myth. Also, it isn't called the "Mormon Bible" it's called the Book of Mormon. And they aren't really Mormons, that is but a nickname. They are the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. If you are going to critisize, at least do it properly. I do congradulate you on the fact that you knew members of the LDS faith are Christian. That points to the fact that you do know some of the doctrine. However, if you knew more, you would know that other things you said are incorrect, but I don't have the time to go over all of them. If you really want to know, learn directly from the teachings and not from what people tell you. People don't always know what they are saying. And just remember this phrase if people bother you again: THE CHURCH IS PERFECT, NOT THE PEOPLE.

I would like to point out a couple of simple facts. One, if you get any group of people together, it doesn't matter if they are religion based, race based, sports based, problems based or whatever, some of them will be jerks. That is the way life is. You can go anywhere in the world and this is true. It isn't just because you are different; everyone is different from everyone else, not just you. Also, a branch president is a "BRANCH PRESIDENT" because the group he is in charge of is not big enough of him to be a bishop of. Eagle branch, in Alaska, has but 7 members, and is therefore a BRANCH or the LDS church. A bishop is in charge of more people than that. We have the North Pole Ward, which consists of a little over 300 members. That is the difference. Caffine is not something the church preaches against; long ago someone got the idea that since coffee and tea are bad caffine must be the reason. That is a myth. Also, it isn't called the "Mormon Bible" it's called the Book of Mormon. And they aren't really Mormons, that is but a nickname. They are the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. If you are going to critisize, at least do it properly. I do congradulate you on the fact that you knew members of the LDS faith are Christian. That points to the fact that you do know some of the doctrine. However, if you knew more, you would know that other things you said are incorrect, but I don't have the time to go over all of them. If you really want to know, learn directly from the teachings and not from what people tell you. People don't always know what they are saying. And just remember this phrase if people bother you again: THE CHURCH IS PERFECT, NOT THE PEOPLE.

I would like to point out a couple of simple facts. One, if you get any group of people together, it doesn't matter if they are religion based, race based, sports based, problems based or whatever, some of them will be jerks. That is the way life is. You can go anywhere in the world and this is true. It isn't just because you are different; everyone is different from everyone else, not just you. Also, a branch president is a "BRANCH PRESIDENT" because the group he is in charge of is not big enough of him to be a bishop of. Eagle branch, in Alaska, has but 7 members, and is therefore a BRANCH or the LDS church. A bishop is in charge of more people than that. We have the North Pole Ward, which consists of a little over 300 members. That is the difference. Caffine is not something the church preaches against; long ago someone got the idea that since coffee and tea are bad caffine must be the reason. That is a myth. Also, it isn't called the "Mormon Bible" it's called the Book of Mormon. And they aren't really Mormons, that is but a nickname. They are the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. If you are going to critisize, at least do it properly. I do congradulate you on the fact that you knew members of the LDS faith are Christian. That points to the fact that you do know some of the doctrine. However, if you knew more, you would know that other things you said are incorrect, but I don't have the time to go over all of them. If you really want to know, learn directly from the teachings and not from what people tell you. People don't always know what they are saying. And just remember this phrase if people bother you again: THE CHURCH IS PERFECT, NOT THE PEOPLE.

I just happened to scan the badbusinessbureau on another matter and came across this hot debate. I was born and raised a Catholic, then when I turned 12, two LDS missionaries knocked on my door. My mom started taking the lessons, and then by CHOICE, my brother and I started listening in as well. We all decided on our own to be baptized in the Church. I am now 21 and am still an active member in the Church.



I live in RI were Mormons are the minority, not the majority, as in UT. Everything is completely opposite of Amanda's story. When I was in HS (a private, CATHOLIC, all-girl's HS) people thought I was weird because I sat through Church for 3 hours and because I didn't drink or smoke pot at the after prom parties. It just all depends where you live. Of course if you are 1 person in a dozen, you are going to feel left out, like your missing something, like your not of the norm...it's in every culture. Be American living in Iraq!



Remember why Mormons are all cramped into Utah in the first place: they were persecuted everywhere else they were by everyone else because they were the MINORITY. So they went to UT to be left alone. There was even an extermination order by the US Government saying it was okay to kill a Mormon on site. Why? They were Mormon.



Being Mormon is more than just a religion, it is a way of life. We don't leave our religion at the Church doorstep every Sunday when we leave. Because of this, it is hard to go to school with a Mormon and hope to only get the person, not the religion. Because the person lives the religion..it's who they are.



LDS children are not brainwashed into believing anything. They have free will and choice like everyone else, which one reason why children are baptized when they are 8 yrs old, so they can make up their own minds.



Poor Amanda was a little peeved when people thought she was Mormon, or when they would talk about Relief Societ around her. If you hang out with Mormons and engage in behavior similiar to that of a Mormon, in a MORMON community...it is bound to happen. People don't mean to offend you. If you don't like it, wear a sign that says "I'm not LDS"..or just do what I do..ignore it.



Going to a Catholic HS means you have to do Catholic things, like fish on fridays in the lunch room, Catholic morning prayer, and catholic mass for special occasions like Christmas, Easter, ect.



I didn't raise a stink because I had to sit through a Catholic Mass being Mormon. I just shut up and dealt with it. I am going to school to get an education, not fuss over stupid things like trying to uphold my image. Kids thought I was weird for not doing the common thing...so I hung out with people who didn't care.



Now, as to the holier than thou attitude: Where ever you go, you will find someone or some people who think they are better than you for one reason or another. I do not believe there is ONE PERSON ON EARTH who has not come across some person(s) like that. They are Mormon, Catholic, White, Black, Latino, Native American, Polish, ect. You can't say "Mormons think they are better than everybody else". Come on now, you mean to tell me there has never been a time when you had your nose held high in the air?? It's hypocritical.



There are all different types of people who are in different religions. Look at Osama. He believes his 9/11 actions were justifiable for the Muslim cause. He's a jerk who supposedly practices the Muslim religion that preaches peace. There are Mormons who are jerks who claim they are Mormon but you'd never know it.



Just b/c there is a jerk in a particular place doesn't mean that the whole community is of jerks and that the core values and teachings of that community are jerky. People have the responsibilty of representing their cause and their beliefs. B/c people are imperfect, some screw up and do things there own way, (Ex: AZ police dept. ) I don't know, I've never dealt with the police down there. The point is, you can't stereotype Mormons (or any group) as being one thing or another.



In RI, there are a few LDS with the Holier than Thou state of mind, a few jerks, and a few who take their beliefs to an extreme (I've never heard anything about no make up though) and won't touch anything containing caffeine, ect. But there is also a great bunch who are just awesome people. They are there when you need help moving or when you are sick, or when you need a job. It is a person's individual frame of mind as to what type of person they are. Keyword here is individual.



Other notes: There isn't a "Mormon" bible. There is the book of Mormon and the the King James version of the Bible -- which is used by MANY religious groups, not just Mormons. Neither the Bible or the Book of Mormon preach hate, bigotry, or racism towards any person or persons. I know, I've read the Book of Mormon completely through word for word myself.

Guess what I am a Native American Mormon! Never, ever ever have I felt excluded because of my race, and I look it!



I am a Mormon because it is the only Christian church that doesn't believe that all of my ancestors, all black ancestors, all asian ancestors and any other race that didn't get born on the continent Jesus was, are going to hell. I cannot respect a church that condemns billions for the accident of their birth!



And guess what people!!! We don't believe in hell!!!! Nope we don't!! Maybe you should educate yourself before spreading hate... or maybe you should go get out your white sheets and burning crosses. Prejudice is still hate whether it is for race, or religion.



Don't like a Mormon's attitude? Don't hang out with them. What is wrong with us making clear what we don't participate in? Is standing up for our beliefs wrong because they don't agree with how YOU think we should be?



Congratulations everyone... you are a bigot. You hate us for our beliefs... you are a bigot.



Don't judge a church on a handfull of members.

Back to the original letter from Amanda.

I spent 3 of my most formative childhood years as a non-Morman living in Salt Lake City. Made many good friends and the place itself is beautiful.The most damaging put downs came from my teachers and a few other narrow minded peers. Thank God my parents left the state after the 3 year stint.



Yeah, a lot are still making non-Mormans "pay" for the old persecutions. Read the letter and I guess I was surprised that the same old attitudes still prevail some 40, (that's right - 40!) years later.



I spent years trying to undo the self esteem bashing that went along with always being a stranger in a strange land. You're never quite accepted if not a part of the "group". That's a huge blessing you'll come to realize later in life. [YIPPEE!!! I'm not part of THAT group!] I'm okay and so are you. There is LIFE outside them thar hills! Bless 'em. It wasn't all bad. Some very creative, wonderful people there. To all others who feel or are stuck there. Make the most of the dry desert air, the sunshine, the inspirational scenery, the winter sports, etc.

Though the "branch president" writer does not indicate which state (or province, etc.) he (or she) is from, he relates that a "branch president" told him caffeine isn't against the word of wisdom (the health code of conduct of the LDS, which also proscribes limiting meat eaten, among other dictates).



Then, the "Editor" claims the writer must mean "stake president." No, no, the writer may actually mean branch president. Branch presidents preside over branches, units of missions. Stake presidents preside over stakes which include several wards. The distinction is, simply (and as with most comments on internet sites-- too too simply) that the numbers of members and their abilities to serve certain ward positions are shy of what's required for a ward (wards being on the level related to a branch-- the basic units of the LDS church; the time and place of worship services, regular weekly services-- stakes meet something like every 6 months).



On the matter of people (teens, and younger and older) being ostracized and/or receiving unwanted evangelizing, it happens. I try to avoid Jehovah's Witnesses when they come to the door. Not that I don't think they're sincere in their effort to save me. I just don't want to hear it. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is one of many, many evangelical churches (not it the Evangelical-category sense, of course, but that the lay clergy, missionaries, and members desire to "share the good news" of the church). Aren't all churches to some extent evangelical?



By the way, I grew up in Utah, but was always very sensitive to people being of a different religion than myself. I was always aggravated by people assuming ANYTHING about anyone else, including their religion. For example, I would relate that a person was from my neighborhood, not my "ward."



For one thing, its not like every LDS member is active (attends church services regularly), so even when some one is "counted" among the membership, they may live like they're not- perhaps attending other religious services. Its also been interesting to meet active members with varying attitudes, including gripes and complaints about other members, church organization, policies, etc. who still can keep a personal focus upon their faith and relationship with Jesus Christ, our Heavently Father, and the Holy Ghost.



Also,... a friend of my husband's described growing up in Utah (Bountiful area, about as LDS saturated as a place can get) but not having had all that much exposure or experience with the LDS church or proselytizing. Interesting. Amazing, even. And the guy had a lot of friends. I suppose he was just able to telegraph his own boundaries and let lots of friends through the openings into himself that he was comfortable with.



I just mean to say it takes all kinds, inside as well as outside any group.

Without delving into the theology of the issue, for the purpose of clarity, this person makes the point about comparative amounts of caffeine in some food products. This seems to be a rather hotly debated issue, even outside the Mormon Church and there is tons of misinformation. So here are the facts:



Coke and Diet Coke have 46 mg of caffeine in a 12 oz. can, or about 4 mg/oz. Brewed coffee has about 30 mg/oz and instant coffee has about 22 mg/oz. Drip and infused coffee have the highest amount at about 79 mg/oz.



Unlike soft drinks, which has caffeine added in production, it is naturally occuring in the cocoa bean. Unsweetened baking chocolate has the highest amount at 47 mg/oz.



Perhaps one of the biggest misconceptions people have about chocolate is that the predominant stimulant is caffeine, which is incorrect, although is does contain some caffeine. The problem in chocolate is theobromine; which, for all you chemists, is a methylxanthine, in the same class of compounds as caffeine and theophylline.



Theobromine and the other methylxanthines occur naturally in many plants found throughout the world. Examples include cocoa, tea and coffee plants. Theobromine is the predominant methylxanthine found in cocoa beans. Theophylline is the predominant methylxanthine in tea. Caffeine is the predominant methylxanthine in coffee.



The primary reason I bring this up is that the methylxanthines are what pose the greatest risk to domestic animals, especially dogs, which may harm the heart, kidneys and central nervous system. This is because dogs metabolize theobromine very slowly. The effect of theobromine on dogs and some other pets is extremely serious and may cause death. TAKE CARE OF YOUR PETS AROUND THESE SUBSTANCES.



The amount of theobromine in the finished product depends on the type of chocolate used and the serving size. Milk chocolate contains less theobromine than semi-sweet or dark chocolate. Theobromine has a mild diuretic action (increases urine production) similar to caffeine, but does not stimulate the central nervous system like caffeine. Just for an example a 1.5 oz Hershey milk chocolate bar has 86 mg of theobromine, while the Special Dark has 195 mg. This approaches the comparison with the caffeine in soft drinks, which is where much of the misdirection comes from.



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As a former Mormon Elder, i have heard the same comments about coke vs. caffiene. I know a good number of "by the book" mormons, and they drink caffinated beverages.



For those that do not drink coke products because of the caffiene content, then I ask- "Do you eat chocolate?". If they say yes then they are hypocritical. I believe the average is around 1 ounce of chocolate has the same or close to the same amount of caffiene that you will find in 1 ounce of Coke or Diet Coke. I wish I could recall the source of that data, but it has since been years.

As a former Mormon Elder, i have heard the same comments about coke vs. caffiene. I know a good number of "by the book" mormons, and they drink caffinated beverages.



For those that do not drink coke products because of the caffiene content, then I ask- "Do you eat chocolate?". If they say yes then they are hypocritical. I believe the average is around 1 ounce of chocolate has the same or close to the same amount of caffiene that you will find in 1 ounce of Coke or Diet Coke. I wish I could recall the source of that data, but it has since been years.

As a former Mormon Elder, i have heard the same comments about coke vs. caffiene. I know a good number of "by the book" mormons, and they drink caffinated beverages.



For those that do not drink coke products because of the caffiene content, then I ask- "Do you eat chocolate?". If they say yes then they are hypocritical. I believe the average is around 1 ounce of chocolate has the same or close to the same amount of caffiene that you will find in 1 ounce of Coke or Diet Coke. I wish I could recall the source of that data, but it has since been years.

As a former Mormon Elder, i have heard the same comments about coke vs. caffiene. I know a good number of "by the book" mormons, and they drink caffinated beverages.



For those that do not drink coke products because of the caffiene content, then I ask- "Do you eat chocolate?". If they say yes then they are hypocritical. I believe the average is around 1 ounce of chocolate has the same or close to the same amount of caffiene that you will find in 1 ounce of Coke or Diet Coke. I wish I could recall the source of that data, but it has since been years.

I was reading the previous letters and I think "What a shame". I am an inactive LDS member (convert). I am inactive because I have seen all to well the hypocrisy of the members of the church and the churches teachings. I have summed up that "it is the thought that counts with any religion" only a human being can screw it up. Amanda is right in her assessment of feeling excluded or pressured to fit in.



I have seen this treatment first hand. I have researched all the religions and asked fellow members for information and guidence and questioned some of the statements in the book of mormon, pearl of great price and doctrine and covenents their reply was pray on it and you will have your answer. Not alot of help.



So basically what it comes down to is you are your own temple. Only you should determine what is right or wrong. No matter what religion, no one is right, no one is wrong.



Only you can determine the path you or you actions will take. Any religion tries to impose it's views on others.



And tries to dictate what is right and wrong. I have found that you will find corruption or hypocrisy within most religions and the reason this is is because it is not the religion that bears these faults but the human that dictates them.



Your religion will not be judged when you come up for final judgement, only you will bear the burden of your actions. All churches believe in the family unit and strengthening those ties. The Morman church is not the only church with this inspired concept.



I live in a very small town. Everyone knows what happens to basically everyone here. If you think this city is large because we have a college here, think again.



I have seen peopled railroaded here for not complying to the Mormon lifestyle and beliefs. I have seen people overlooked for promotion because of their non-morman beliefs.



I have seen Bishops and the higher clergy holding their position in front of a shield of hypocrisy. I have seen holier-than-thou members lie straight faced to their fellow members by trying to be perceived as something they are not.



I have personally seen adulterers, liars, bullies, and cheats in church with me. Am I perfect? hardly. It is not so much as the religion I am avoiding, but the humans that have twisted it's perception.



I have taken the best concepts from every religion and applied them to my life. I try to practice honesty in my life by being truthful with myself first. I no longer attend churh because I felt there was right and wrong, good and bad sitting around me.



You can't ask the bad to leave or denounce them. So I keep my own council, I try to live as Jesus and God would.



I make mistakes and ask for forgivness, I practice in my home and life instead of "The Church" and I am constantly being looked down on as a person that is "not within the fold" by my fellow citizens.



Even my very best friend has some reservations because I no longer share her beliefs, but she will always be my best friend to me.



Occasionally, she will try to change my mind and get me to follow "the right path to God", that's her perception. How does she not know that I am not already on the right path?





Amanda I sympathize with you deeply. Keep your head up, follow your heart, do not ever let someone else dictate what you are or should be as a person. They cannot live your life for you.

Keep your own faith in God and Jesus close to your heart and you will prevail this test of humanity.

I am a 21 year old female that was baptized a Catholic at birth and later baptized a Mormon when I was 9. I am currently an inactive member of the LDS church and have been for the past 6 years. I admit that there are certain aspects of the Mormon religion that I do not believe in and that is why I no longer attend the church. But I am no hypocrite and so I will not attend church on Sundays and nod my agreement to the pastor/priest/bishop as he is giving his sermon when deep down, I do not believe in everything that is being taught. I feel that something needed to be said in defense to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I attended the LDS church until I was about 15 years old. I enjoyed every minute of it. The church is extremely family oriented and teaches nothing short of "Love One Another as Jesus loves you". By no means is the church racist! In the entire time that I was a member, the congregation was made up of all racial ethnicities. We were taught to love everyone and we practiced this through "Random acts of Kindness". As youth groups, we volunteered at homeless shelters (not Mormon homeless shelters) and charities (not Mormon charities) and various others. I grew up in the deep south where racism is a way of life but through the church, I learned that ignorance will take you straight to hell. We are all God's children and are all equal in his eyes. Most people give the Mormon church a bad rap because they do not understand what it is all about. They do not have a "Mormon Bible". There is only one bible and that is the Holy Bible. The Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ as written by latter day prophets. I know it because I have read it. You're probably wondering why I speak so strongly of this and yet no longer attend this church. It is because I cannot say that it is the one and only true church (which they claim and other denominations claim as well). I have nothing but good things to say about the Mormon church. So open your mind and try to learn a little more about it before you slam it to the ground. "Judge not that you be not judged" (The Holy Bible, Matthew 7:1)

They filed the following rebuttal to the above REBUTTAL:



Their email: Amarantha@mail2gemini.com



Their relationship to the company: Consumer Suggestion



Rebuttal:

Okay...first I would like to say how dare you,Shannon, crucify this teen who is reaching out!? I know Mormons as well and to read what you wrote almost made me gag! I also have friends who are in the "church" and we fight all the time. Everytime I drink a coke or coffee! I can't wear make-up...according to them...I can't practice my own beliefs because they tell me that I will perish in hell!! I have heard them tell me that caffine is sinful. They come into my home and put down everything within

it! They judge everyone who is not like them! I love my friends but I know they get their views from the church. At one time they didn't like my husband because he was native american... perhaps you should read the Mormon bible to understand their veiws on indians and african americans. And I don't care what the church "stick" man tells you. Read the Mormon bible yourself and see how judgemental they are! I believe this teenage

stuck in Mormanville. Keep standing up, Hon. Your paving they way for other non-Mormons in Utah!!!! I believe the Mormon have a right to practice their beliefs but I also believe the rest of us have a right to practice ours as well! Blessed Be,Amanda!

They filed the following rebuttal to the above Rip-Off Report:



Their email: siu@hotmail.com

Their name: siu



Their relationship to the company: Advocate



Rebuttal:

you really sound as dumb as you title, you sound like a person who has many challenges in your life and because your in Utah with the majorities that are mormon they are the closest ones to blame for your "UN MADE_UP LIFE" with decisions. You just dont know how to live your life accordingly, you seem to think mostly what people think about you , or what they might think or say, why the heck do you care what any one says, just do what you think is right for yourself instead of blameing it on the

mormon church, are you that low self esteemed that you have to broad cast it and get attention?? I could only imagine how your life is! You sound confused so why dont you just try sorting out things in your life instead of looking for a church to blame. If you dont believe in the mormon church, for goodness sakes, then go to another one... stop your winy mouth up and go reaad the bible with a sincere heart, open it up and listen to what ever you feel. You sound like you have a one track mind

thats all made up in a narrow path. Go have a beer and shut up!!

They filed the following rebuttal to the above Rip-Off Report:



Their email: harold-henderson@msn.com

Their name: Harold Henderson



Their relationship to the company: Supporter



Rebuttal:

I am sure that Amanda is expressing her true feelings that reflect her experiences. I am LDS but grew up in North Carolina and now live in Utah. It is unfortunate that anyone would be excluded and made to feel left out because of not being LDS. To any extent that this happens it is wrong.



It is not the spirit of the teachings of the LDS church to do so. I personally believe that people who think that they are better than others by virtue of membership in the LDS church will be held accountable for their incorrect attitudes by God. I believe completely in the LDS church and I know that many times people with good intentions do silly things that don't reflect properly the teachings of the church.



I am sure that

if and when your friends realize how they have come across to you that they will be sorry for it. Whether or not you ever choose to become a member should be based entirely on your own belief and faith.



I do believe that if you took the time and effort to more closely examine what is taught you would see that what is taught is tolerance and love not exclusion or hate. Please forgive those that have offended. They should not have treated you like that.

They filed the following rebuttal to the above Rip-Off Report:



Their email: katie@pawprintstudios.com

Their name: Miss Information



Their relationship to the company: Consumer Suggestion



Rebuttal:

First I'd like to say I'm not a Mormon, or LDS, but I find this argument very sad none the less. The poor baby has to live with prejudice every day of her life! How horrible for her. It's probably a good thing she's not in a visible minority, because that's what we live with every day everywhere we go! It's amazing that people living in Utah and Arizona have so little knowledge of their own history.



Utah is a MORMON STATE, founded by and populated primarily by Mormons. These were immigrants from Europe who moved to Utah to find a place to practice their religion in safety, just like the Puritan Separatists who left England for New England. I suppose this young lady has never been to a Jehovah Witness or Fundamentalist Christian Church (etc.) either.



If she had she might just realize that the Mormons are not the only people actively pursuing converts. Nor are they the only people making value judgements on other peoples lives. I find it very interesting that so many of these complaints have a ring of bigotry to them. (The Mormons did this to me, the Mormons did that.those horrible blond Mormons) Contrary to popular belief, no one has a patent on the truth, and each of us must seek our own path.



In the end it all comes down to how well you preformed within your own religious context, and that will be something faced alone at the end of your life.

EDitor's Comment:



The above rebuttal does not ring true. It also distorts, ignores or misreads the salient points made by the person who submitted the report: A Non-Mormon teen in a Mormon world."



The rebuttal person Shannon says it was brought to her attention by a "branch president." Doesn't she mean "stake president"? Why would a "branch president" (stake president) -- an older Mormon male who has risen to that position within the LDS hierarchy -- bring it to HER attention.???? She's supposedly a

non-Mormon. The report was filed on the Rip-off Report a month and a half ago. Why didn't this stake president write a rebuttal himself?? Wouldn't he be more knowledgeable about what is and what is not among Mormons there in Utah than a non-Mormon would be?



The original report, based on the writer's first hand experiences from having lived her entire life in Utah, said, "The purpose of the church as I see it is not bad in any sense -- it TEACHES morals, family values and faith: it is the PRACTICES in which I see a problem."



However, the person writing the rebuttal, who claims to be a non-Mormon, disregards that statement and says, "Some of the statements in this complaint seem to come from someone having a very narrow view of what the LDS church really TEACHES and should be completely dismissed."



The rebuttal ignores what the writer expressed and does not pick up on that distinction between what is TAUGHT and what is PRACTICED.



We see no malice in the original report. Rather it is an assessment of Mormonism gained from a lifetime of experiences. The writer of that original report does not regard her Mormon friends as "bad people."



In spite of this, the rebuttal states, "...I feel it is wrong to judge an entire organization by the works of one group of school kids."



Amazingly, the rebuttal ends, "Maybe it is time to stand up for what you believe and if you still feel unaccepted it is time to find a new group of friends." (By submitting the report, as well as challenging some Mormon ways with her friends, the first writer certainly has stood up for her beliefs.) The twisted rebuttal then concludes, "After all, every organization has some bad people, even the LDS church."



Caffeine???? Here again, the rebutting writer misreads the report by the teen, who merely quoted a Mormon's self righteous remark, "I don't drink caffeine, it's against the teachings of the church."



Maybe the Mormon "branch president" -- with whom the rebuttal writer appears to be so chummy -- should set his own people straight about the edicts of his church on the subject of caffeine. Many other Mormons may also be confused. "Hey, brother, caffeine is not considered a 'harmful substance' and it's okay for us."



The Mormon missionary zeal in THIS country is a fact of life, and has been overtly practiced for over a century and a half. To deny that fact is to deny reality. No, there is no respect for another's spiritual beliefs when all out efforts are continually made to "convert" practicing Christians ("gentiles") and practicing Jews to Mormonism. Peer pressure used by brainwashed Mormon children towards non-Mormon children of other faiths is particularly loathsome.



The rebuttal falls flat on its face. It reeks of ignorance and

dishonesty.

EDitor's Comment:



The above rebuttal does not ring true. It also distorts, ignores or misreads the salient points made by the person who submitted the report: A Non-Mormon teen in a Mormon world."



The rebuttal person Shannon says it was brought to her attention by a "branch president." Doesn't she mean "stake president"? Why would a "branch president" (stake president) -- an older Mormon male who has risen to that position within the LDS hierarchy -- bring it to HER attention.???? She's supposedly a

non-Mormon. The report was filed on the Rip-off Report a month and a half ago. Why didn't this stake president write a rebuttal himself?? Wouldn't he be more knowledgeable about what is and what is not among Mormons there in Utah than a non-Mormon would be?



The original report, based on the writer's first hand experiences from having lived her entire life in Utah, said, "The purpose of the church as I see it is not bad in any sense -- it TEACHES morals, family values and faith: it is the PRACTICES in which I see a problem."



However, the person writing the rebuttal, who claims to be a non-Mormon, disregards that statement and says, "Some of the statements in this complaint seem to come from someone having a very narrow view of what the LDS church really TEACHES and should be completely dismissed."



The rebuttal ignores what the writer expressed and does not pick up on that distinction between what is TAUGHT and what is PRACTICED.



We see no malice in the original report. Rather it is an assessment of Mormonism gained from a lifetime of experiences. The writer of that original report does not regard her Mormon friends as "bad people."



In spite of this, the rebuttal states, "...I feel it is wrong to judge an entire organization by the works of one group of school kids."



Amazingly, the rebuttal ends, "Maybe it is time to stand up for what you believe and if you still feel unaccepted it is time to find a new group of friends." (By submitting the report, as well as challenging some Mormon ways with her friends, the first writer certainly has stood up for her beliefs.) The twisted rebuttal then concludes, "After all, every organization has some bad people, even the LDS church."



Caffeine???? Here again, the rebutting writer misreads the report by the teen, who merely quoted a Mormon's self righteous remark, "I don't drink caffeine, it's against the teachings of the church."



Maybe the Mormon "branch president" -- with whom the rebuttal writer appears to be so chummy -- should set his own people straight about the edicts of his church on the subject of caffeine. Many other Mormons may also be confused. "Hey, brother, caffeine is not considered a 'harmful substance' and it's okay for us."



The Mormon missionary zeal in THIS country is a fact of life, and has been overtly practiced for over a century and a half. To deny that fact is to deny reality. No, there is no respect for another's spiritual beliefs when all out efforts are continually made to "convert" practicing Christians ("gentiles") and practicing Jews to Mormonism. Peer pressure used by brainwashed Mormon children towards non-Mormon children of other faiths is particularly loathsome.



The rebuttal falls flat on its face. It reeks of ignorance and

dishonesty.

EDitor's Comment:



The above rebuttal does not ring true. It also distorts, ignores or misreads the salient points made by the person who submitted the report: A Non-Mormon teen in a Mormon world."



The rebuttal person Shannon says it was brought to her attention by a "branch president." Doesn't she mean "stake president"? Why would a "branch president" (stake president) -- an older Mormon male who has risen to that position within the LDS hierarchy -- bring it to HER attention.???? She's supposedly a

non-Mormon. The report was filed on the Rip-off Report a month and a half ago. Why didn't this stake president write a rebuttal himself?? Wouldn't he be more knowledgeable about what is and what is not among Mormons there in Utah than a non-Mormon would be?



The original report, based on the writer's first hand experiences from having lived her entire life in Utah, said, "The purpose of the church as I see it is not bad in any sense -- it TEACHES morals, family values and faith: it is the PRACTICES in which I see a problem."



However, the person writing the rebuttal, who claims to be a non-Mormon, disregards that statement and says, "Some of the statements in this complaint seem to come from someone having a very narrow view of what the LDS church really TEACHES and should be completely dismissed."



The rebuttal ignores what the writer expressed and does not pick up on that distinction between what is TAUGHT and what is PRACTICED.



We see no malice in the original report. Rather it is an assessment of Mormonism gained from a lifetime of experiences. The writer of that original report does not regard her Mormon friends as "bad people."



In spite of this, the rebuttal states, "...I feel it is wrong to judge an entire organization by the works of one group of school kids."



Amazingly, the rebuttal ends, "Maybe it is time to stand up for what you believe and if you still feel unaccepted it is time to find a new group of friends." (By submitting the report, as well as challenging some Mormon ways with her friends, the first writer certainly has stood up for her beliefs.) The twisted rebuttal then concludes, "After all, every organization has some bad people, even the LDS church."



Caffeine???? Here again, the rebutting writer misreads the report by the teen, who merely quoted a Mormon's self righteous remark, "I don't drink caffeine, it's against the teachings of the church."



Maybe the Mormon "branch president" -- with whom the rebuttal writer appears to be so chummy -- should set his own people straight about the edicts of his church on the subject of caffeine. Many other Mormons may also be confused. "Hey, brother, caffeine is not considered a 'harmful substance' and it's okay for us."



The Mormon missionary zeal in THIS country is a fact of life, and has been overtly practiced for over a century and a half. To deny that fact is to deny reality. No, there is no respect for another's spiritual beliefs when all out efforts are continually made to "convert" practicing Christians ("gentiles") and practicing Jews to Mormonism. Peer pressure used by brainwashed Mormon children towards non-Mormon children of other faiths is particularly loathsome.



The rebuttal falls flat on its face. It reeks of ignorance and

dishonesty.

EDitor's Comment:



The above rebuttal does not ring true. It also distorts, ignores or misreads the salient points made by the person who submitted the report: A Non-Mormon teen in a Mormon world."



The rebuttal person Shannon says it was brought to her attention by a "branch president." Doesn't she mean "stake president"? Why would a "branch president" (stake president) -- an older Mormon male who has risen to that position within the LDS hierarchy -- bring it to HER attention.???? She's supposedly a

non-Mormon. The report was filed on the Rip-off Report a month and a half ago. Why didn't this stake president write a rebuttal himself?? Wouldn't he be more knowledgeable about what is and what is not among Mormons there in Utah than a non-Mormon would be?



The original report, based on the writer's first hand experiences from having lived her entire life in Utah, said, "The purpose of the church as I see it is not bad in any sense -- it TEACHES morals, family values and faith: it is the PRACTICES in which I see a problem."



However, the person writing the rebuttal, who claims to be a non-Mormon, disregards that statement and says, "Some of the statements in this complaint seem to come from someone having a very narrow view of what the LDS church really TEACHES and should be completely dismissed."



The rebuttal ignores what the writer expressed and does not pick up on that distinction between what is TAUGHT and what is PRACTICED.



We see no malice in the original report. Rather it is an assessment of Mormonism gained from a lifetime of experiences. The writer of that original report does not regard her Mormon friends as "bad people."



In spite of this, the rebuttal states, "...I feel it is wrong to judge an entire organization by the works of one group of school kids."



Amazingly, the rebuttal ends, "Maybe it is time to stand up for what you believe and if you still feel unaccepted it is time to find a new group of friends." (By submitting the report, as well as challenging some Mormon ways with her friends, the first writer certainly has stood up for her beliefs.) The twisted rebuttal then concludes, "After all, every organization has some bad people, even the LDS church."



Caffeine???? Here again, the rebutting writer misreads the report by the teen, who merely quoted a Mormon's self righteous remark, "I don't drink caffeine, it's against the teachings of the church."



Maybe the Mormon "branch president" -- with whom the rebuttal writer appears to be so chummy -- should set his own people straight about the edicts of his church on the subject of caffeine. Many other Mormons may also be confused. "Hey, brother, caffeine is not considered a 'harmful substance' and it's okay for us."



The Mormon missionary zeal in THIS country is a fact of life, and has been overtly practiced for over a century and a half. To deny that fact is to deny reality. No, there is no respect for another's spiritual beliefs when all out efforts are continually made to "convert" practicing Christians ("gentiles") and practicing Jews to Mormonism. Peer pressure used by brainwashed Mormon children towards non-Mormon children of other faiths is particularly loathsome.



The rebuttal falls flat on its face. It reeks of ignorance and

dishonesty.

This email is a rebuttal to RipOff #2068.

It was sent by Shannon at Shannon5002@aol.com.



A Non-Mormon teen in a Mormon world UTAH (#2068)



They filed the following rebuttal to the above Rip-Off Report:



Their email: Shannon5002@aol.com

Their name: Shannon

Their phone number: @Rebuttal_Phone@

Their relationship to the company: Devotee



Rebuttal:

Some of the statements in this complaint seem to come from someone having a very narrow view of what the LDS church really teaches and should be completely dismissed. I am not a member of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints (not the Mormon Church) but have close family and friends who are members. LDS church members do have what is called the word of wisdom where they are told they should not smoke, drink alcohol or partake of other harmful substances. Caffiene is NOT included in the word

of wisdom.(This was brought to my attention by a branch president.)



I have attended church with my family and have LDS missionairies and members in my home on a regular basis. I have not once been made feel as if my values were leess than that of LDS members. I have always been made feel welcome and accepted. I have also been encouraged by LDS members and leaders to study not only the book of Mormon but other religious works.



Any LDS member living as the church teachings will not look down on you for having different beliefs. You are a child of God just as they are.



Trust me your peers have been taught this.



I am very sorry if you have had bad experiences with a few people but I feel it is wrong to judge an entire organization by the works of a one group of school kids. Maybe, it is time to stand up for what you believe and if you still feel unaccepted it is time to find a new group of friends. After all, every organization has some bad people, even the LDS church.