Midas Brake Job $670 repair Vehicle won't stop Company advised Need master cylinder but don't have tech experienced with ABS system Carmichael California

First of all, having a friend that works for Midas that's certified in just about all-things car related, they might suggest disabling the ABS, but they would not perform this due to a huge liability issue. No matter how much he hates ABS, he would never do this on anything but his own cars.

I hate ABS. I had a 1997 Grand Am and figured how to temporarily disable the ABS. I drive about 5-10 mph, hit the brakes and yank the E-brake at the same time. The ABS light would come on and the brakes would act like non-abs brakes. (as soon as you turned off the car and restarted, the ABS went back into effect.)

With the ever-changing weather in cleveland Ohio, i think ABS is a bad idea. I felt more comfortable and confident with regular brakes on snow, slush and ice.

I have debated on responding to this or not as I was always taught never to argue because people may not be able to tell the difference.

Your missing the point I was making. It's not illegal to make those modifications but when you do make modifications including changing wheel size or any other non factory modification the liability when something goes wrong shifts from the company that made the vehicle to the business that did the modification.

I do not wish to expose myself and family to the liability of repairing/modifing a vehicle to a non factory configuration and risking losing any and all my assets in a lawsuit if and when something goes wrong with the modified vehicle.

First thing the lawyers will look at when they do the accident investigation is if the vehicle was repaired/modified according to the carmakers procedures and when they find that the shop did not follow the proper procedures the judge/jury will find in favor of the vehicle owner and you stand a good chance of losing everything you have as most of those lawsuits exceed the value of most shops insurance policies.

Take this for whatever you feel its worth, your mileage may vary

It doesn't make it correct though. There are several companies that sell disc brake refit kits for early model cars. Using your theory, if I install one for a customer, I could be held responsible if that person crashes, due to no fault of the brakes. It does not work like that. I installed a brake system the car(according to the VIN) did not come from the factory with. So what? The brakes work.

According to your theory, I cannot install 26" rims on a customer's car, since they are not offered from the factory. I also cannot do body/suspension lifts, install power-adders to the engine, dual exhaust, stereos, etc.

According to your legal theory, my FULLY STREETABLE Firebird is illegal, since the entire body is made of fiberglass, has an engine that is MUCH larger(in size, and power)than Pontiac ever imagined, has oversize tires in the rear(Sportsmens), undersize(cookie cutters) in the front, racing shocks all around, racing springs, 3" dual exhaust with aftermarket mufflers, etc. Maybe I can sue myself.

I'm installing air conditioning in a 1960 Desoto. It never had it to begin with. I had a system custom made in Texas. I guess I'll be sued for that when the customer catches a cold.

There is absolutely NO legal issues with refitting the brakes, as long as they operate correctly. ABS is an OPTION. It is not mandatory. There is no law that requires ABS. There are laws that require functioning service brakes. Removing an OPTIONAL accessory is not illegal. As Pablo pointed out, the service brakes work perfectly fine when the ABS module quits.

The old woman who got burned by coffee simply shows how idiotic our legal system is as a whole. The multi-million award was reduced upon appeal. Fat people sue McDonalds for making them fat. Get used to it. There is risk with every repair. If I do an oil change, I am putting my shop at risk. All of life has risks.

There is a difference however. If someone wants me to disable their FUNTIONING ABS, they are out of luck. Not only because of legal issues, but because I have no financial interest in doing that. If they want me to CONVERT the NON FUNTIONING ABS system to a fully funtional NON-ABS system, then I am open for business.

Perhaps that is the point you missed.

I just bought my FIRST car with ABS. In the past, I've avoided any ABS equipped vehicle like the plague. The early ABS systems were overly complicated and loaded with expensive replacement parts (compared to parts in a standard system).
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Today's ABS systems are grossly simplified compared to the early ones initially offered. Many times ABS is combined with traction control. This feature, although not a singular safety issue, is handy in N.IN where I live.(Can you say "icy roads"?)
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It's true that an experienced driver under ideal conditions can stop as fast or faster in a non-ABS equipped car. That said....to my reason on finally accepting an ABS option. These points are inarguable:[1]The roads are rife with totally inexperienced drivers. [2]It snows in the rust belt and elsewhere. [3]"Ideal conditions" rarely exist.
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All steering control is lost when the wheels (brakes) are locked up, to wit: wet pavement, ice , snow or whatever the reason. ABS allows enough wheel rotation so a vehicle CAN be steered AROUND an obstacle. That, obviously, can spell the difference between a near miss and tragedy. Even if the ABS doesn't get the car stopped, this advantage is obvious.
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My final problem with ABS equipped vehicles, is the fact some drivers mistakenly think it's safe to go faster in minimal traction conditions. These dummies, in my opinion, serve as the last major barrier in totally endorsing ABS brakes.

I never said if ABS or Airbags actually helped or hurt the driveability of the car nor if they prevented injuries or not. I addressed the issue of fixing the vehicle back according to the car makers procedures.

As long as you fix it according to the procedures for the vehicle then if there is a legal issue the manufactuer will send their legal team to help defend you. If you re-engineer the ABS or airbag system, including disabling it and there is a legal question/suit then your on your own defending your actions.

When a lady can purchase a HOT cup of coffee and spill it in her lap due to her fault entirely and sue the resturant that sold the HOT coffee and collect a sizeable judgement then guess what can happen when you repair something differently than the factory that made it says to repair it.

Now if the factory offers a kit to disable the airbag or ABS and you install their kit according to the proper procedures then thats a entirely different story.

And unlike a lot of others here I am not going to argue the points, you do it your way, I will do it my way and we will see where the chips fall at the end.

"Not to mention I doubt any professional shop would change the system over from ABS to non-ABS due to the fact that if the person has a accident and is injured or property damage the person/shop that disabled the system could very easily be held liable for the accident."

The factory service manuals include the part numbers, and required steps for this conversion. There are also a number of aftermarket sources selling the parts, and literature to complete this task. So far, none have been sued by anyone. Why would they? The brakes function properly.

ABS actually disengages(bleeds pressure away from) the brakes for very short periods of time, in order to give the ANTI-LOCK. Knowing how to drive works as well, and usually better.

"The first thing the lawyers will ask is did you repair this vehicle according to the manufacture procedures which you would have to reply no and the judge/jury will tell you to pay here."

If this theory was correct, there would be no modified vehicles at all. No more jacked up 4WD trucks, no more hotrods, no more tinted windows, no more modifications of any type. If I was asked the question you wrote, I would reply "Yes, the brakes were repaired and had full function. The brakes operated correctly and stopped the vehicle as well as any other non ABS equipped car of it's make/model".

I would also be armed with a list of studies showing the ABS system failure rates, and how truly useless this gizmo is compared to knowing how to drive. Of course, the complainant would have to prove that the functioning brake system, and not their poor driving skills, was the reason for the crash.

If ABS was "all that", why isn't it used in ANY racing sport? I'll tell you... because it's a failure. People who know how to drive, don't need to be protected from their own lack of skill. I had a Freightliner. The ABS was recalled on it so many times, I lost count. It never funtioned properly. It would engage and disengage at will. Sitting still the pedal would start to move up/down. Stopping was always a thrill. Freightliner eventually ended up removing it and installing... GUESS... a NON ABS system. Ta Daaaa! All fixed... no more brake issues.

In reality... most people don't even know if they have ABS, or not. I spend waaaay too much time road testing people's cars for the same complaint:"My pedal goes to the floor when I stop." During the road test, I make a dozen NORMAL stops, with no problems at all. Then I let the customer drive. Jackrabbit starts, and slamming the brake pedal down. Every time. The customer then says "See?... The pedal is on the floor"!

DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This happens every time. I get it at least once/week, usually more often. I end up teaching them how to drive like a sane individual. Amazing how their brakes last longer after they learn. Those with non ABS equipped cars don't have these issues. Their pedal always stays high, and hard.

I have a buddy here who thinks I drive like a nut. He doesn't understand the purpose of turn signals, acceleration lanes, merging, anticipating the red light, waiting for the intersection to clear before entering, etc. He grew up here in Jax. These people ALL drive with complete disregard for safety.

Yep, I'm the nut.

The ABS system on my '93 GMC piuckup stopped working 8 years ago which means I now have a conventional brake system and all is fine with it. The ABS light stays on but so what. I never cared much for it anyway after the first time I braked hard and felt the truck brakes release and the vehicle surge forward. I called the dealership and they told me thats how they function. Screw that. If you want you can simply disconnect the ABS module and you'll have a standard hydralic system.

All the mechanic is doing is converting the system from anti-lock, to non anti-lock. Both systems are available on nearly every make/model since the late 1980's. There is absolutely no evidence that ABS is any safer than a cars with no ABS system.

Refitting the brake system is akin to disabling the airbags. In fact, the airbags ARE a proven safety component.

ABS is one of those gizmos the insurance companies like you to have. They'll even give you a reduction in your premium for having it. On the other hand, they don't increase your premium for having bald tires, paying no attention to the road, and driving with complete disregard for safety. As long as you don't speed(the most common reason for "points"), the insurance companies think you are a great driver.

There have been studies done that actually show people with things like ABS are more likely to tailgate, etc. These people think ABS will keep them from crashing into someone they follow too closely.

When the ABS motor fails to function(a common occurrence), you are left with a normal non-ABS system anyway.

There is no liability in this operation. I checked before I did my first one.

Robert I like you own a auto service center and I usually agree with your posts, however I can not believe ANY professional repair center/tech would ever suggest to disable the ABS system or any other safety system on a auto. Not to mention I doubt any professional shop would change the system over from ABS to non-ABS due to the fact that if the person has a accident and is injured or property damage the person/shop that disabled the system could very easily be held liable for the accident. The first thing the lawyers will ask is did you repair this vehicle according to the manufacture procedures which you would have to reply no and the judge/jury will tell you to pay here.

Robert I like you own a auto service center and I usually agree with your posts, however I can not believe ANY professional repair center/tech would ever suggest to disable the ABS system or any other safety system on a auto. Not to mention I doubt any professional shop would change the system over from ABS to non-ABS due to the fact that if the person has a accident and is injured or property damage the person/shop that disabled the system could very easily be held liable for the accident. The first thing the lawyers will ask is did you repair this vehicle according to the manufacture procedures which you would have to reply no and the judge/jury will tell you to pay here.

Robert I like you own a auto service center and I usually agree with your posts, however I can not believe ANY professional repair center/tech would ever suggest to disable the ABS system or any other safety system on a auto. Not to mention I doubt any professional shop would change the system over from ABS to non-ABS due to the fact that if the person has a accident and is injured or property damage the person/shop that disabled the system could very easily be held liable for the accident. The first thing the lawyers will ask is did you repair this vehicle according to the manufacture procedures which you would have to reply no and the judge/jury will tell you to pay here.

Robert I like you own a auto service center and I usually agree with your posts, however I can not believe ANY professional repair center/tech would ever suggest to disable the ABS system or any other safety system on a auto. Not to mention I doubt any professional shop would change the system over from ABS to non-ABS due to the fact that if the person has a accident and is injured or property damage the person/shop that disabled the system could very easily be held liable for the accident. The first thing the lawyers will ask is did you repair this vehicle according to the manufacture procedures which you would have to reply no and the judge/jury will tell you to pay here.

Your brakes had to be completely shot for you to have to spend $700 fixing them.

When the rest of the brake system functioned correctly, the master cylinder probably could not handle the pressure anymore. It's like putting a new compressor on an A/C system, and having the hoses blow out a day later.

Find a shop that will convert your anti-lock system over to a non-ABS system. It will be much cheaper, and more reliable. ABS was invented for people who don't know how to drive, so you may have to bone up on your skills.