M&T BANK evil crooks that reorder debits and charge excessive fees Internet, Nationwide

i must admit this is getting fun to attack you and win cause you really are so stupid(in this respect)--if you have actually read my last posts--i have not been overdrafted in a long time---i am responbsible--the reason why is cause i had to go through such drastic measures in order not to get overdrafted-in other words-the bank tricks me-now i trick them---i learned how the scam works and figured out counter measures---again--the bottom line--you cannot just keep an accurate record--it doesn't work when they re arrange your transactions--you can look online one day and see a deposit posted on say the 5th--spend a couple dollars--a couple days later you look and that deposit you saw posted on the 5th was pushed back to the 7th--so the money you spent on the 6th shows overdraft--when you live check to check this is the kind of crap that happens--but if you have a descent amount of money in your account(cushion) you do not have to worry-hence why it is so easy for you to say "just keep an accurate register"--now again you will come out with you cannot rely on online banking--than what is it there for??--why can't you look online to see if your deposit posted before you spend a couple dollars??--then see it posted on a certain date--spend a couple dollars--look a couple days later to find a few overdraft fees and the deposit that you saw credited on the 5th is now credited on the 7th--why does the information you saw online change?--but i am an idiot that can't manage money??--cause again--it is as simple as keeping an accurate register??--fact is cause i have no money and live check to check which makes me a prime target to a bank scheme--the rich are stealing from the poor!!!!--godforbid i should want to go out after i got paid and spend 3$ for a gatorade and 5$ at pollo tropical for chicken--by the way--same thing for the other guy to who says banks don't reorder transactions and if you spend 167 and have 167 yuou will have no problems--what a joker!!

Although I can agree that if a customer overdrafts, whether by mistake, intention, fault of their own, an unauthorized or unknown merchant charge or hold, a check that didn't clear etc it will cause a fee. That had NEVER been debated so I don't know why Striderq and the other bank defenders need to bring this up..but there is some dispute I have to address...

Striderq stated...

If you keep a register and do not spend more money then you have, you can not get any overdraft fees.  If you have $167 in your account and spend $167 or less in any number of transactions then your account can not be overdrawn. The only time the "reordering" of transactions can cause fees is if you spend more than you have available.

This is true..however why not address the reason the bank is "re-ordering" ANY debit card transactions? Oh wait, it is being addressed, in a US Federal Court.

I understand the theory behind "it was just my last transaction that was more than I have, I should only get one fee". However the requests for payment aren't always received from the merchant in the order you made them. It's similar to if you have a credit card payment due a day or two before your paycheck. You decide to wait to make the payment so you don't get an OD fee. If the late fee puts you over your credit limit then you will also get hit with an over the limit fee. You may have "only accepted the one fee" but due to the processing procedure and timeframe you may get more than one fee.

Also true, but again it FAILS to address the fact that a debit card is NOT a credit card..yet the BANKS are treating it as such. The only difference is, that your credit card does not re-order the times of transactions, only a bank does that. While it is also true that merchants can "request payment", when the card is swiped, the BANK can CHOOSE to authorize the charge, or decline it if there are insufficient funds available. As well, when the banks do not re-sequence anything (such as Chase no longer does), the transactions are posted AS THEY OCCUR, and the order they come in. Keep it simple stupid.

Yes, I understand that the feds have changed the rule and there are new lawscoming into effect. However, I'm willing to bet that the people that are complaining now about OD fees will be on here complaining abouthow their mortgage/car payment/insurance payment/etc was returned unpaid. And it's really sad because the only effective way to prevent the fees is the accurate register method. But that's frowned on by the enablers who've decided it's not the account holders fault or responsibilty, the blame belongs only with the "big evil" banks. 

If you keep a register and do not spend more money then you have, you can not get any overdraft fees.  If you have $167 in your account and spend $167 or less in any number of transactions then your account can not be overdrawn. The only time the "reordering" of transactions can cause fees is if you spend more than you have available. I understand the theory behind "it was just my last transaction that was more than I have, I should only get one fee". However the requests for payment aren't always received from the merchant in the order you made them. It's similar to if you have a credit card payment due a day or two before your paycheck. You decide to wait to make the payment so you don't get an OD fee. If the late fee puts you over your credit limit then you will also get hit with an over the limit fee. You may have "only accepted the one fee" but due to the processing procedure and timeframe you may get more than one fee.

Yes, I understand that the feds have changed the rule and there are new lawscoming into effect. However, I'm willing to bet that the people that are complaining now about OD fees will be on here complaining abouthow their mortgage/car payment/insurance payment/etc was returned unpaid. And it's really sad because the only effective way to prevent the fees is the accurate register method. But that's frowned on by the enablers who've decided it's not the account holders fault or responsibilty, the blame belongs only with the "big evil" banks. 

I am done - If you cannot manage your monies then keep them under your mattress - I manage my accounts and I just do not understand how a sane, educated individual cannot - back to the 80s the me me decade - blame everyone but MYSELF for my mistakes

I live in the 21st Century - time for you to do the same Bill

Good luck

first off--i did not call you a "w***e"--i was just implying that if you did not make such stupid comments as keeping an accurate register would make you smarter and possible get you laid more--if i went on a date with you and you said something like this to me--i would assume you are a dumb*** and wouldn't **** you---who knows how many other everything is simple, dumb things you say--this does not make you an absolute idiot--but it does make you an idiot in this sense--i am sure you have a brain for something-whatever it is

 bill d in lauderdale by the sea-lbts(Land of Big Titied Seniors)

Very well said even though I do not agree with everything you said but it is the Account holder's responsibility to take care of their monies period

And YES I will crucify those who pretty much cannot spell my name and in other words calls me a "w***e" ie - getting laid to get smart??? Guess it did not work for you huh Bill?

I'm not pissed off about the disagreement with the lady who was extorted 65 dollars by the mechanic. I just snapped back at you. Trust me what the bank defenders have done to me here is nothing compared to our little disagreement. I just believe in fairness, and it was not fair to trap that lady there when she was supposed to have an alternator replaced, and the mechanic had no intent since he could not even get one that night..she was defrauded and the service employee should never have had her drive there under false pretenses..orchestrated scam 101.

Anyhow, you are having trouble keeping track of your account balance. That does not make you a criminal, but it will subject you to fees. Why not go to Chase, open up a checking account, sign up for direct deposit, they will even give you 100 bucks.

When they hand you the contract (which is one page real easy to comprehend), check that you do not want overdraft coverage. This way no matter what the statement says, it will be impossible to overdraft with the debit card.

Chase no longer re-orders the transactions either so the online statement is much closer to real-time. Watch your auto pays and checks if you write any, and then no matter how "slow" you are..you will never get a fee again.  Now..you are not only protected from yourself, but the bank as well.

I try to keep an accurate register myself, but sometimes it is easy to miss by a small amount. I mean how many times do you see someone pay with a debit card, and then wrote it down? I don't think I have ever seen one single person ever do this. And this is why so many end up overdrafting, they simply forgot what they are spending. Opt out of OD protection, or use cash. If you have overdraft coverage on the debit card, you are totally subjecting yourself to fees unless you keep track to the penny. Chase will allow you do go 5 dollars over and forgive it..and allow you a business day to cover any overdrafts that can cause a fee, but why risk it? Overdrafting by mistake does not get you out of a fee,  and niether does blaming the banks undependale constantly in flux online statement, so why have the coverage to begin with?

seeing so may people seem to want to add their two cents to this I will clarify the facts:

ok--i aqpolgize for my you need to get laid comment--this was uncalled for---however--i must still consider you the enemy wheich i am sure is fine and dandy with both of us---all i am saying is you cannot just keep an accurate ledger when you live check to check--and what is the purpose of online banking statements(which is supposedly connected to the banks system) if they are not accurate--how many times have i kept a ledger based on what i do--then knowing i had say $5 in my account on the 1st--on the 2nd i spent 2$--on the 3rd i got paid 350$--look online a couple days later and see the deposit added to my account--then spent 4$ here and 5 dollars there on the 5th for example--then 10$ here and 3 there on the 6th---then i find my account in overdraft fees right after i got paid??--somehow--they played with the date of the deposit-where before i spent i saw the deposit and now after i spent the deposit was pushed back to the 7th--before looking online it showed the deposit was in there on the 5th--now all of a sudden it says something else??--and then miracoulsy these small withdrawls i made were applied before the deposit refelecting overdraft---does this sound like i truly went into overdraft to you???---it is f ucking with dates----this is how i went into overdraft every week----again--i admit-i am a little slow---but you know what---at least i try to give good advice on how to not go into overdraft based on my experiences--wat do you do--"ohh-just keep an accurate ledger"--obviously this does not work--DO YOU UNDERSTAND??-probably not-but f**k it

as for ronny g--your still pissed off cause of our little disagreement we had on the auto ripoffs--this is fine 2---but to clear something up--you said you did not understand one of my steps-#3 i think--to live by the banks schedule--meaning i wait many days before i do anyting with my account---this way i know there is nothing pending--and when i look online--there is nothing pending and this amount actually matches my numbers--before hand i could never get my numbers to match---i am living by the banks schedule--waiting for them to clear my transactions before i make another---in all seriousness--these are extreme measures that one must go through in order to avoid overdraft--cause those like me know it is easy---but my question is--did you really have to nit pick everything i said in my tips??- i mean really yo??--this gave me the indication someone is still mad about being one of the few people that believes a girl was ripped off by a mechanic-the mechanic knew what she was going to try and called the police and then she bailed out before the police got there--she knew she was wrong!!--so we had a disagreement cause you were making rebuttals that did not make sense to what the original post was--you didn't read it good--based on this i thought you do better with bank rip off reports--just my opinion-----in any case--these are good tips as they helped me---in terms of the auto pay you mention in another report where you said i am borderline fraud--#1-we are talking about an amount of 12$--#2--i tried to stop the auto pay but could not--#3--i was unemployed and had no means of putting money in the bank to cover the 2$ i needed as i only had 10$ in the account--i just thought it was MORALLY wrong they charge me a fee AND not pay the charge--they could of just not paid the charge and that was it??---what was the loss to the bank truly??

now back to attacking STACEY over here--i hope one day you realize it is more than just keeping an accurate record and hopefully you can actully offer good advice instead of the typical you are all stupid and don't keep an accurate ledger--and by the way--you got my attitude for a reason---people do not give attitudes for no reason

Aren't you the gentleman - First off my name is STACEY not Stacy. Second I know how to manage my bank accounts without spending monies I do not have which is what YOU did!  It is called taking responsibility for your actions

As for the "getting laid will make me smarter" all I have to say is PATHETIC.  Good luck because you are going to need it with your attitude

First of all my name is STACEY not Stacy  - Second I am far from being a idiot.  I keep an accurate ledger of my Savings and Checking accounts and do NOT overdraft my account by spending money I do no have

As for me "getting laid' this absurd statement just shows what type of person you are - GROW and get get a life - stop blaming others for YOUR mistakes - Good luck in life - you are gonna need it with attitude

It is "StacEy"..if you leave out the "e", she will crucify you.

Lauderdale by the sea, my old stomping grounds..I lived there for 15 years..walking distance.

Anyhow..I have to rebut or at least put up for debate some of your statements..

The bank online statements are there for several reasons..1) to confuse customers into overdrafting, and 2) so customers can see if any unauthorized, unknown holds or charges were applied, and to tell customers the "available" balance..regardless of the fact that it might not be available in 5 minutes from the point of checking it due to a charge from 4 days ago. Yes, depending on the online statement is akin to playing a slot machine..or Russian roulette. In reply to your advice..

"#1--do not use your debit card to purchase things/reduce the number of transactions---i notice a lot of people use there cards like 4-6 times a day--with this--there will always be items pending and you will never know what is truly going on on the banks side---------THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT TIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

This is true..UNLESS you are opted out of overdraft protection, AND the bank does not re-sequence your transactions. It makes using the online statement to verify more reliable, and best of all , it PREVENTS an overdraft from occurring in the first place due to debit card usage. Now why some people simply can not figure out what they have in the account vs. what they spend is beyond me, but if an overdraft can inadvertently occur and the bank allows it, the bank is in effect condoning the activity. Simply opt out..and it will protect you, whether too dumb and irresponsible to know what you are spending, or if an honest mistake, excessive check clearing, unknown or unauthorized merchant hold or charge..whatever, the transaction will be declined, hence you avoid a fee..or any compounding of fees the bank tires to pull.

"#1a---use your atm to withdraw cash and use cash to buy things--you will greatly reduce the number of transactions and it is much less to keep track of--you will not always have things pending--at the end of the month i have roughly 10 transactions--much easier to keep track of!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Also true..but whether you take out cash, or use the card 5,000 times a day, you are STILL subjecting yourself to potential fees if you do not A) opt out of OD coverage on the debit card..and B), use a bank that does NOT re-sequence the transactions..Chase comes to mind, and C) do not spend more then you have in the account.

"#2--go by the banks schedule--if you wait many days before you do anything(whether paying a bill online) you will always know the amount in your account(even with the online statement)--you cannot just spend money freely using your debit card and expect deposits to cover--you confuse yourself with multiple things pending especially when they reorganize transaction dates"

I do not understand this reply, hence can not rebut or agree with it.

"#3--never try to spend down to the last penny--some people keep good ledgers(based on there activity)--but based on what banks do--and you always use your debit card and spend down to the last .50 thinking i had .50 cents left--this does not work"

Exactly, the point of keeping a ledger/accurate register. How else could you keep track of what you are spending down to the penny unless you can keep track of every penny in your head, or simply write it down?

"#3a--minus more than you spent/use whole numbers--i do use my debit to buy food and gas--if my food bill was 22$ i put down i spent 25$--sure enough a few days later i look in my account(with no items pending) and it shows i have more than i thought i did---"

This is all well and good, but what difference does it make if it is still playing "Russian roulette"? If an autopay or check not clearing, or unauthorized/unknown hold kills the account...a few bucks here and there from over"estimating" won't do jack s**t to avoid the fees. You MUST know what you are spending so if there IS an issue regarding something that was NOT truly your fault and it caused fees, or any manipulations by the bank that caused excessive fees, you had BEST be able to back up your side by at the very LEAST, knowing what you have used that card for..to the PENNY. It is NOT that hard and although it seems I am bank defending here, I am not. I am defending that everyone MUST be responsible for their part in this, the CUSTOMERS and, the BANK. The banks are crooks no doubt, but if we ALLOW them to financially rape us by being irresponsible or careless with the account time and time again, and playing Russian roulette by "guesstimating" what we have spent..at what point do we smack ourselves in the forehead, and ask "what an "I" doing wrong?"

umm--with all due respect--this has never happened to you obviously and this makes you an idiot---you say to keep an accurate ledger and balance our check books--umm--we may keep an accurate ledger based on what we do---but the bank has another ledger for our accounts in which they play with the dates of transactions--if we cannot count on online banking statements what are trhey there for!!!--a couple years ago almost every week i was charged 160$ in overdraft fees---this was many many weeks--i am a little slow i admit but i figured it out--the point--you cannot keep an accurate ledger cause they will reorganize your transactions--what is hard for you bank advocates to comprehend this---with this--i will leave tips to avoid overdraft

 #1--do not use your debit card to purchase things/reduce the number of transactions---i notice a lot of people use there cards like 4-6 times a day--with this--there will always be items pending and you will never know what is truly going on on the banks side---------THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT TIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#1a---use your atm to withdraw cash and use cash to buy things--you will greatly reduce the number of transactions and it is much less to keep track of--you will not always have things pending--at the end of the month i have roughly 10 transactions--much easier to keep track of!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#2--go by the banks schedule--if you wait many days before you do anything(whether paying a bill online) you will always know the amount in your account(even with the online statement)--you cannot just spend money freely using your debit card and expect deposits to cover--you confuse yourself with multiple things pending especially when they reorganize transaction dates

#3--never try to spend down to the last penny--some people keep good ledgers(based on there activity)--but based on what banks do--and you always use your debit card and spend down to the last .50 thinking i had .50 cents left--this does not work-

#3a--minus more than you spent/use whole numbers--i do use my debit to buy food and gas--if my food bill was 22$ i put down i spent 25$--sure enough a few days later i look in my account(with no items pending) and it shows i have more than i thought i did---

so to stacy--just keeping an accurate record is not enough--what is the point if the bank has different records--i had to go through these measures just to not get charged overdraft and in time i smartened up cause i got tired of being minused 120-160 a week every week for months!!!--but my point is---you should do what you want to do and spend how much you want to spend(providing your records show you have money)--banks thrive on people using there debit card and spending down to the last $1---it has been more than  a year since i have been overdrafted!!!!--to those that read this i hope this helps---and to stacy--the faster you realize these banks f%ck with our transaction dates and it is impossible to keep an accurate ledger(unless you reduce the number of transactions) the faster you may get laid and be considered a little smarter

 bill d in lauderdale by the sea!!!!

I think Stacey left good advice.

However, I feel the banks do wrong by auto enrolling and re-sequencing debit card transactions to maximize fees.  I also agree the customers need to keep an accurate ledger.

People make mistakes, the banks take advantage..and that's how it goes with most banks.

The OP might want to consider a bank with better polices. Look into Chase, they do not auto enroll you into overdraft coverage on the debit card which can save you from your own mistakes, and merchant holds, checks that didn't clear in time, unauthorized use etc (all banks won't be able to soon due to law changes), and they will no longer re-sequence and manipulate the debit card transactions. Good for every customer in my opinion. The way I see it, is there is no reason to overdraft with a debit card so why be enrolled unless you like fees?

The re-ordering the banks do make it very difficult to figure out what went wrong so good luck if you did not keep an accurate register. If they posted the transaction as they come in like Chase does, it would have been easy to see what caused the overdraft. Had you not been auto enrolled, the overdraft would have been prevented since the transaction would have been declined at the point of sale, or ATM. You still need to know what is in your account, and watch those autopays and checks (if you use any) as those always have been and will continue to be subject to fees. But I figure we have enough to worry about in our every day life..why not a little less worry about what the banks can do to you in the event of a mishap?

I am waiting for the downloads though..any downloads??

Your online balance is your proof - Wrong! When the bank takes about overdraft fees they do it because YOU overdrew your account - the bank does not need your consent!!! The only way to avoid these fees is to keep an accurate ledger and balance your monthly bank statement.

Stop spending money you do not have! And along comes the customer advocates to say you did nothing wrong with their quotes and downloads -