Munson Marine BUYER BEWARE!! Fox Lake, Illinois

Munsons rebuttal is sadly filled with lies and deceit.  Its really quite disturbing to see what level a business will sink to in order to save face.  The lies from Munsons response to my initial report are in quotes and I have commented on each

Munson states, On 5/14/10 Munson Marine delivered the boat to the customer's Wisconsin lake house. The motor ran fine the day we delivered it to the customer.

-Did Mr. Munson not read my letter?  The boat did not run fine at all.  In fact, it stalled several times on the way from the marina to our house.  The exact same as it did on the test drive.  I dont know who would consider that running fine.  I dont believe that Munson ever test drove the boat again or corrected any problems that it had after that first test drive.  They had assured us that all issues would be corrected prior to boat delivery.  The simple fact of the matter is that they delivered a boat that still had major mechanical issues.  If they did test drive it and claim it was fixed, then I seriously question the expertise of the Munson mechanics as it was definitely not ever running fine.   

Munson states, we delivered the boat to the customer on 5/14/10. The customer became very upset and threatened us with an attorney if the engine was not replaced. Our Service Manager told him we would go up to the boat the very next day and diagnosis the problem.

- Mr. Munson is saying that this happened when I took delivery of the boat.  This is not true.  I mentioned having my attorney call him only one time , much later in the ordeal (mid-August) after they had worked on the motor 4 times and were going to charge me a trip charge to work on it some more.  I never brought up contacting an attorney until after I felt all reasonable options were exhausted with the unhelpful staff at Munson. 

Munson states, We never permanently bypassed the manufacturer's fuel filter. After we were done testing with the remote 6 gallon tank, the fuel hose was reattached to the fuel filter as designed.

- I was standing there watching the tech very carefully.  There was no remote 6 gallon fuel tank.  There was also no intention of reconnecting the fuel hose to the filter.  In fact, the tech said disconnecting the SouthBay fuel filter and bypassing it may fix the problem.  The mechanic stated that they always disconnect them because they are unnecessary.  Now that I think of it, maybe disconnecting the manufacturers fuel filter caused the carbs to go bad in the motor.  I will need to make SouthBay aware of this issue directly and see if Munson may have indeed did further damage to the motor.

Munson states, He also stated that we would be hearing from his attorney (2nd time he threatened us with an attorney)

- Again, this is a lie.  I did not mention my attorney calling them until way later (mid-August) after they failed to complete the repair they had promised to fix before I took delivery. 

Munson states, Second, the customer was trimming the motor too high causing it to cavitate and suck air. Once the weeds were cleared and the engine was trimmed properly the engine ran perfectly. Our mechanic explained to the customer that the engine should not be trimmed too high otherwise you will suck air and start to cavitate.

- The truth to this lie is that the mechanic had to pull the pin on the motor completely out to increase the angle of the prop into the water to properly run.  If they would have tested the boat before they delivered it they would have seen that this too was not right.  It had nothing to do with my technique in trimming. 

Munson states, Our Service Manager explained that any time you have multiple carburetors you have to perform a Sync and Link function. This marina did not have the proper equipment to do the Sync and Link and therefore did not adjust the carburetors properly. The customer said that the engine was running very rough after he picked it up from the local marina.

- Another lie.  The fact is the engine was running terrible the whole entire time; on the test drive and each and every moment after I took delivery of the boat.  That was the reason I took it to the marina in the first place.  And lets be clear, its not a sync and lync issue with the carburetors.  At a minimum, the #1 Carburetor is broken and fuel is gushing out.

Munson states, According to the customer, the engine was running just fine for 25 hours before he took it into the local marina and was running poorly after he picked it up.

- It is quite disturbing to see that Mr. Munson wrote this rebuttal without carefully reading my initial report.  If he had read it more carefully, he would know that the motor has never run fine.  It had issues from the beginning, at test drive and ever since.

Munson states, Our Service Manager told the customer that the engine

was running fine for 25 hours until the local marina performed the 20 hour service but did not adjust the carburetors. We told him that Honda was not going to just give him a new motor because the carburetors were not adjusted properly.

- The marina did not want to get involved with a motor that was brand new, faulty, and still under warranty.  As to protect my interests, he did not touch the carburetors.  The Marine Specialist that came out later told me that the carbs were not out of sync, but indeed broken.

Munson states, The customer became furious and said he was calling his lawyer (3rd time customer has threatened us with a lawyer) and we would be hearing from his lawyer.

- Again, this is a lie.  I never became furious during any of this ordeal.  I did not mention having my attorney calling him until mid-August, and it was the first and only time.  If anything, I should have been sterner in my position as Munson has taken advantage of a paying customer.    

Munson states, The customer's wife called back a few minutes later to apologize for her husband's behavior and explained that her husband was a hot head and had a very bad temper.

- This one really gives you a good feel for what kind of character Mr. Munson and his team over at Munson Marine of FoxLake brings to the table.  My wife would like to answer this one herself

 I did indeed call back, but did not say a single one of the things Mr. Munson had said.  In fact, he refused to take my call and I never spoke with him.  I felt that my husband was not getting upset enough with Munson and wanted to call myself.  I was even more frustrated and angry with their poor customer service than he was.  I wanted to speak with Craig Munson directly, so I left a message with his associate.  Mr. Munson did not even give me the courtesy of a call back.  My husband is not a hot head, nor does he have a bad temper as Mr. Munson blatantly lied about what I said.  However, I do get upset with BAD customer service and knowing we have gotten ripped off.  Throughout this whole torment we have been much more respectful and polite towards Munson than they have been towards us. 

Munson states, The engine has run fine for 25 hours over a 2 1/2 months time frame until the local marina did not adjust the carburetors properly and now the engine runs rough.

-This lie, along with all the rest of Mr. Munsons statements.  They will all be added to our action with Honda Marine and new communication with SouthBay.  The engine never ran fine and the local marina never touched the carbs.

Munson states, The customer now wants us to come up at no charge to fix someone else's mistake. The customer has decided to go on a smear campaign and we have yet to hear from his attorney.

- Munson Marine and Honda Products have received a certified letter from our attorney.  Mr. Munson is confused.  It is not a smear campaign to state facts about a bad experience with a business.  It is simply a forewarning to all other potential customers so that they do not have to go through the same ordeal we did.  I wish I had read the dozens of the other horrible, negative reviews regarding Munson Marine of FoxLake before we purchased our boat from them.  It seems we are not the only ones who have been in a similar ordeal with Munson Marine.  My original report was respectfully truthful, accurate, and to the point.  I stand by it 100%. 

As with every story, there are two sides.

Munson Marine would like to tell our side of the story and the events that have taken place with Mr. Burgoon's 2009 Southbay 720CR pontoon and Honda 50 hp motor.

Mr. Burgoon purchased the boat on 3/30/10. On 4/15/10 he came in to take delivery of his new boat and do his on-water brief. This on-water brief was performed by a Certified Mechanic with 20 years experience in the Marine Industry. Prior to the customer coming in for his on-water brief, the boat and motor are rigged/prepped by a Certified Mechanic and a lake test is done to assure there are no problems. In this case, there were no issues on the lake test. However, as things go, problems can occur at any time even on a new motor.

As the customer states, during his on-water brief the motor started running erratically with the RPM's fluctuating up and down. The customer was not taking the boat to his Wisconsin lake house for another month. We assured him we would look at the problem and make sure it was corrected prior to him taking the boat in mid May. When we looked at the boat, we found that the fuel line pick-up at the top of the fuel tank had a small crack which was allowing air into the fuel line. We ran the boat out on the lake on a remote 6 gallon gas tank to eliminate the boats fuel system to make sure there where no problems with the engine. After replacing the cracked fuel pick-up and complete fuel line assembly, we ran the boat out on the lake and it ran perfect.

On 5/14/10 Munson Marine delivered the boat to the customer's Wisconsin lake house. The motor ran fine the day we delivered it to the customer.

The following week the customer called our Service Department and said the boat would not run at higher speeds. The customer was obviously upset and stated that he wanted a NEW motor. Our Service Manager told him that we would have to look at the motor and determine what was wrong, since it was running fine when we lake tested it and when we delivered the boat to the customer on 5/14/10. The customer became very upset and threatened us with an attorney if the engine was not replaced. Our Service Manager told him we would go up to the boat the very next day and diagnosis the problem.

The next day one of our mechanics went to the customer's Wisconsin lake home. In an effort to diagnosis the problem and determine if the problem was with the boat or the motor, our mechanic connected the fuel line to a remote 6 gallon fuel tank. The problem still existed, so it was determined that the problem was with the motor and not the boat. We never permanently bypassed the manufacturer's fuel filter. After we were done testing with the remote 6 gallon tank, the fuel hose was reattached to the fuel filter as designed. Our mechanic was squeezing the fuel line bulb to keep the engine running and determined that the fuel pump on the engine was bad and not pumping fuel to the engine. Our mechanic reported his diagnoses back to our Service Manager. We called Honda and found out that they have been having problems with fuel pumps. We ordered a new fuel pump on 5/21/10 from Honda.

In the mean time, Munson Marine offered to bring a new pontoon up to the customer's lake house for him to use while we were waiting for the new fuel pump. The customer refused our offer.

On the afternoon of 5/26/10 the fuel pump came in from Honda. We sent the same mechanic up to the boat the next day, 5/27/10. After replacing the fuel pump, the engine ran fine. Our mechanic ran the boat out on the lake and did 8 passes over a 2 mile stretch. The engine ran flawlessly. The fuel pump only took one week to get, not the two weeks as the customer claims.

The customer called us two days later on 5/29/10, Memorial Day weekend. He was very upset and said the engine was again not running properly and would not run at higher RPM's. He stated that he was disgusted with this boat and was done with it. He also stated that we would be hearing from his attorney (2nd time he threatened us with an attorney). Our Service Manager calmed him down and said he would like to come up the next morning, Sunday, and see what the problem was. If the problem was the same, we would replace the engine. The same mechanic went up there on Sunday morning to meet the customer and run the boat. Our mechanic noticed a lot of weeds in front of the customer's house. Our mechanic took the customer out for a ride and two problems where determined. First, weeds where getting wrapped around the prop interfering with the proper operation. Second, the customer was trimming the motor too high causing it to cavitate and suck air. Once the weeds were cleared and the engine was trimmed properly the engine ran perfectly. Our mechanic explained to the customer that the engine should not be trimmed too high otherwise you will suck air and start to cavitate. Munson Marine did not charge the customer for our time to come up on 5/29/10. We came up to make sure everything was ok due to the fuel pump problem earlier.

The customer called our mechanic later on 5/29/10 to report that the motor was running well and it looks like his issues were solved.

Munson Marine did not hear from the customer until 8/10/10, almost 2 1/2 months later. The customer explained to our Service Manager that he took his boat to a local marina to have the 20 hour service check performed and the oil and filter changed. He said that the marina he took it to did not have the proper tools to adjust the carburetors. Our Service Manager explained that any time you have multiple carburetors you have to perform a Sync and Link function. This marina did not have the proper equipment to do the Sync and Link and therefore did not adjust the carburetors properly. The customer said that the engine was running very rough after he picked it up from the local marina.

The reason a 20 hour check is performed, is that after the engine breaks in you need to re-adjust settings on the engine. According to the customer, the engine was running just fine for 25 hours before he took it into the local marina and was running poorly after he picked it up. Our Service Manager told the customer that we would come up and look at the engine to Sync and Link the carburetors. He told the customer that there would be a charge for us to come up. The customer decided that he was going to have another mechanic look at the motor since he did not want to pay Munson Marine to come up.

We did not hear from the customer until a week later on 8/17/10. He told our Service Manager that he had a marine mechanic with 30 years of experience look at the motor. The mechanic's recommendation after looking at the motor was that the motor needed to be replaced. Our Service Manager told the customer that the engine was running fine for 25 hours until the local marina performed the 20 hour service but did not adjust the carburetors. We told him that Honda was not going to just give him a new motor because the carburetors were not adjusted properly. Our Service Manager suggested that we come up and take a look at the motor. He told the customer that there would be a charge for us to come up to the boat. The customer asked why we would charge him to come look at his motor. We explained that the Manufacturer's warranty does not include travel time. We also explained that this might not be warranty if the local marina did not adjust the carburetors properly. At this point, two other mechanics have been working on this engine. The customer became furious and said he was calling his lawyer (3rd time customer has threatened us with a lawyer) and we would be hearing from his lawyer.

Our Service Manager told the customer that he has threatened us with an attorney on three separate occasions and was being verbally abusive. Our Service Manager told him that he could not speak to him anymore since he continually threatens us with an attorney. The customer's wife called back a few minutes later to apologize for her husband's behavior and explained that her husband was a hot head and had a very bad temper.

The bottom line is that the customer had two separate problems. The cracked fuel pick-up and a bad fuel pump. Both were covered under warranty at no charge to the customer. Munson Marine offered to bring up, at no charge, a new pontoon as a service loaner while we waited for the fuel pump but the customer refused. The customer called assuming he had motor problems when it was operator error due to weeds and him trimming the motor too high. The engine has run fine for 25 hours over a 2 1/2 months time frame until the local marina did not adjust the carburetors properly and now the engine runs rough. The customer had another mechanic look at the motor and his diagnosis was to just replace the engine. Honda would not agree to this. Munson Marine has been very responsive to the customer's problems and has gone to his lake house three times. Lastly, the customer has threatened Munson Marine three separate times with an attorney. Even though he has threatened us, we still went out to his boat to see what problems he was having. The customer now wants us to come up at no charge to fix someone else's mistake. The customer has decided to go on a smear campaign and we have yet to hear from his attorney.

The following has been my experience with your Authorized Honda Dealership, Munson Marine of Fox

Lake, Illinois over the past 4 months.  They have left me no choice but to take legal action and precede though Honda Marine Group.

I purchased a brand new 2009 South Bay Pontoon with a brand new 2009 Honda 50 HP 4-Stroke Motor from Munson Marine of Fox Lake, Illinois in April of 2010.  I paid for the boat in-full with a check on the spot and test drove the boat immediately after.  During test drive, I noticed the boat not accelerating properly and stalling out numerous times when we accelerated.  The Munson mechanic who was on the boat actually tried to tell me this was normal!  He was also extremely limited to what features of the boat he knew how to operate, like the navigation, fish finder, radio, etc.  I spoke to a service person, as well as Sam, the Sales Manager of Munson Marine, when we got off the boat and told them something was not right with the motor.  They both assured me everything would be checked and repaired before delivering the boat to me in early May, four weeks later.  I believed them.

In early May I took delivery of the boat.  I wrote a check in access of $300 for delivery of the boat, and tipped the delivery person $20.  He put the boat into the water and not more that 100 yards out into the water I noticed the motor having the same exact issues it did during the test drive a month earlier.  Moments later the motor stalled out again and again, multiple times before I could even reach my dock.  I called Munson, spoke to Pete the Service Manager, who told me they had tested the motor numerous times and had found no problems with it before delivery.  I told him that was impossible because it was still having the exact same issues.  I knew I was in for a long summer with the boat and with Munson, especially since they started off our relationship with a blatant lie.  He said he would send someone up to look at it.

The next weekend a mechanic from Munson came out to check the engine.  He removed the fuel line from the manufacturers (SouthBay) fuel filter, essentially bypassing it, and connected it directly to the Honda motor.  He told me that Munson technicians bypass the manufacturer's fuel filters all the time because they tend to cause problems with the fuel.  He said this Honda motor had its own fuel filter on it anyway so it shouldnt matter.  He had also squeezed the fuel pump ball multiple times to make sure it was working properly.  When he did so, I noticed a small amount of gasoline trickling down alongside the motor and into the water.  He said this was a common event and that sometimes fuel will accumulate in certain parts of the engine components and will wash off into the water.  It didnt sound right to me, but what do I know, right?  He's the mechanic.  He said to try things out and let him know if it was still having problems after he left.  I took the boat out a couple hours later and it was having the same exact issues I was having on the test drive and before he came to service it that day.

I called Munson back, again speaking to Pete the Service Manager, who told me they would have to locate a new fuel pump from Honda.  After a couple weeks he had located one and scheduled a time to come up and install.

The same mechanic from Munson came up a couple weeks later to install the new fuel pump.  He also reconnected the fuel line to the manufacturers (SouthBay) fuel filter.  After the new fuel pump was installed the boat did not stall anymore for about two months.  However, the motor still did not seem to be running at 100%.  It would chug while in neutral and always seemed like it wanted to stall.  Finally, in early August, the motor began to stall every time I had the boat in idle.  It also took about 10 minutes to get the motor started every time I took it out.  I knew something was still wrong with the motor and it was indeed not completely fixed.  Keep in mind the motor had 25 hours on it at this time.  It was practically still brand new.  I called Pete at Munson.  He told me it would probably cost in access of $350 to come out and perform a 20-hour service on the motor which may or may not take care of the issue.  After discussing the situation with him, we had agreed that the best option was to take it to my local marina and do an oil change and have the mechanic adjust the throttle and see if it fixed things.  I did that.  The owner of the marina performed an oil change and lightly inspected the motor.  He told me there were bigger issues with the motor than anything oil or throttle related.  There was most likely a problem with the carburetors and that I should have Munson come up and assess it.  I called back Pete at Munson and he told me that it would take at least two weeks to get someone out to look at it.  At this point I felt there was something going on and Munson was indeed not going to stand behind the motor or take care of me as a customer.  If I didn't trust them a whole lot before, I definitely did not trust them now.

I called a very reputable Mobile Marine Specialist with 30 years experience in the business to come assess the motor and give me an unbiased, honest opinion of it.  After inspection, he told me that the #1 Carburetor was broken and had fuel leaking out of it.  His recommendation was to have Munson replace the motor or to replace all 3 carburetors.  He said in his 30 years experience it was not commonplace to see a brand new motor have this many issues.  Again, the motor had a little over 25 total hours on it at this time.

I called back Pete at Munson and told him what the gentleman had found.  I told Pete I was fed up with this motor and that I wanted either a new motor or 3 new carburetors.  Pete's reaction?  He laughed at me.  He literally laughed out loud at me through the phone.  You can imagine how I felt as a customer of Munson at this point.  Pete said he would send someone up to take a look at it at his earliest convenience.  After a few days he called me back and asked me for a credit card number for the trip charge.  Trip charge?  I said I was not paying any trip charge for a repair that was promised to be made at the dealership before I took delivery.  A repair Munson promised would be made after I had already paid for the boat in full and in good faith.  I said I wanted to speak to the owner, Craig Munson.  He said he was not available.  I asked what Craig would think about the service being provided when his Service Manager laughs at his customers requests and concerns.  He told me Craig was the one who put into place all the ways Munson handles service.  I had no choice but to tell Pete I would have to have my attorney call him.  At that point Pete said he needed to hang up the phone and broke all contact with me.  I tried to call Craig directly a couple days later to sort things out.  Sam, the Sales Manager, answered the phone.  She told me Craig would not speak to me because I threatened legal action and I would need to have my attorney call them.  That was the last contact I had with Munson Marine.  I am now in the process of going though Honda Marine Group with my attorney to make sure I am not left in the dark with this motor.

I have done business with many stand-up people in my life and feel I am a stand-up person as well.  Maybe I was a bit naive to think Munson Marine would fall into this category.  Although they tried to fix the problem and were seemingly on track to make things right between us, they fell short and left me with nowhere to go.  The bottom line is Munson Marine knowingly sold me a bad motor and I do not trust them.  I will be in the market for two more boats and a couple of jet skis in the next year or two.  Munson has truly lost a great customer.  I am hoping to find a quality, honest marine dealer in the Midwest who can fulfill my future needs.  I also hope Honda Marine Group can sympathize with the ordeal I have gone through with their Authorized Dealer, Munson Marine of Fox Lake, Illinois.  I have always heard good things about Honda products, now we will see if they stand behind them as I would expect.