Report: #994526

Complaint Review: New Zion Shilohs

  • Submitted: Thu, January 10, 2013
  • Updated: Fri, March 01, 2013
  • Reported By: Arthur — Cortland New York United States of America
  • New Zion Shilohs
    11922 North Road,
    Fillmore, New York
    United States of America

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 I have been looking for a female dog to train as a service for myself I am involved with a veterans agency that provides the tools and training needed. I searched for the perfect dog for this and finally found the Shiloh Shepherd known for intelligence and personality. I thought that if I contacted the daughter of the originator of the breed I could get the perfect dog. I wrote emails and got a reply that she had a 5 month old female that would be perfect for my needs. I have PTSD and epilepsy and need a dog that can help me calm down and go out in public as I have been a shut in for almost 10 years that doesn't mean I am afraid to go out but I don't deal with people well at all however, if I have a dog with me I can be very friendly.

 Lisa told me that Star was perfect for this as she already showed sign that she can tell if someone is ill. We settled on a price for her and she was supposed to be in great health so I went to see her with my other dogs for a meet and greet. [continued below]....
..... Star seemed to perfect as she was loving us up and my dogs and a cat that was there great. I took her home and then the trouble started she was now 7 months old and I noticed that when going down stairs she would not use her left leg so I had her x-rayed and found she has mild hip dysplasia that causes her pain.

My vet thinks that it won't become a serious problem until she is about 6 years old. I took her to meet the people that will help train me and her as a service dog and she showed resource guarding which means nothing was allowed near me. I contacted Lisa about this and brought Star back to her for an exchange but that is not what happened Stars sire was there and he is supposed to be the top Shiloh service dog in the country.

If my dog showed this problem and has hip dysplasia then he can't stud his dog out anymore so with everyone against me and the x-ray there I was the only one that could the smaller ball in the joint of the left leg I even left it for her vet but I was told that the Shiloh shows a slight fearfulness when young and that many have this hip problem and it will go away by the time she is 3 however the contract for a replacement ends when she reaches 2. Star always had loose stool ever since I brought her home and then Cornell checked and found she had Giardia a flagellate single celled parasite in her intestines and it is also transferrable to humans so I had to treat 4 dogs and two humans for this illness.

I am a Viet Nam era vet with PTSD and Epilepsy and was guaranteed a good dog and over the phone she stated that if Star didn't work out she would replace her with another female. That is the biggest problem that she gave me a verbal guarantee and not in writing. The contract I signed as I understood it also gave me the right to exchange the dog if she didn't work out, and I took her at her word also the state department of agriculture also states that the dog must be healthy and that the breeder should or is supposed to replace the dog or refund the money. So at this time I am without my service dog and she is not being trained because she fears her own shadow.

Her personality is such that she feeds off any other animal she is around if it well balanced she is not aggressive but she won't allow anyone other than me or my partner Ida to touch her if she is near an aggressive dog she can become the same way. The biggest problem is her feeding off of my emotions when I am anxious or angry she becomes the same and that is not what I need her to do. She is supposed to distract me from my emotions and should be able to distract me with a touch and not become a shivering mess.

I feel I was ripped off by Lisa Barber because it would have cost her friend money if he could no longer stud his male and she would lose money if she had to reimburse me the $750 I paid for Star but now it would be much more as there is x-ray fees , vet bills for giardia and medications for 6 amounting to almost $2000 that I feel she should reimburse me for. Lisa knew that I had just lost my beloved female german shepherd to bi-lateral hip dysplasia and did not want to go through that again and now I will be going through that again as I already know Star has hip dysplasia.
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This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 01/10/2013 10:58 AM and is a permanent record located here: The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year. Ripoff Report has an exclusive license to this report. It may not be copied without the written permission of Ripoff Report. READ: Foreign websites steal our content

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#1 Consumer Comment

Lisa Barber An Honest and Fair Person?????

AUTHOR: missbetsy - ()

Dear Art,  I am sorry that you went through this with Lisa Barber from New Zion Shilohs.  I wish I had seen your review of her and her business practices.  I also wished I had done a Google search on her and had seen other people not happy with her "business practices".  I need to address Tom Kuligowsky where he comments that he has known Lisa Barber and she is an "honest person, fair & responsible business person.  Please do explain this to me then.  I contacted Lisa Barber 8/2013.  We talked about me purchasing a Shiloh Shepherd puppy.  Lisa told me if I sent a $400 deposit that it would put a hold on a puppy in an upcoming litter that same month.  When the end of Aug. came and I had not heard from her I e-mailed her.  She did reply back and said to call her cell number the following day to discuss upcoming litters as the pregnancy didn't take.  Okay, fair enough.  I did call and left a message, called again and again and left more messages.  I e-mailed her and in Sept. of 2013 even sent her a certified letter.  Basically comes down to this.  She cashed my check, kept the $400 and that is the end of the story.  Now I ask you Tom Kuligowsky.  Just what part of keeping $400 of somebody else's hard earned money and never making contact with them is an honest person??  Fair?  Nope, not that word either.  Responsible business person?  Wrong again Tom!!  A responsible business person would have been in touch with me and kept me informed of upcoming litters.  At the time she had nothing on her website stating deposits were non-refundable and I have a copy of that.  She has since changed her website.  Several of Lisa's "followers" told me that Lisa is a very busy person so please try calling her again and giving her a chance.  Really?  Nobody else has a busy life?  How many times must one call and leave messages for her to contact you?  How many e-mails that she doesn't respond to?  Oh!  How about the BBB of NY which made numerous attempts and she failed to respond to them too!  I anxiously await Tom Kuligowsky's reply because for all my years I obviously have never known the correct definition of an honest person or a fair & responsible business person.  Again, Art I am sorry you had to ever deal with Lisa Barber.  I see you are a Vietnam Vet.  Thank you Art for your service!

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#2 Author of original report

New Zion Shilohs

AUTHOR: Arthur - ()

It has been a year and a half since I last posted on this report. I have been in contact with the bbb and then with the Attorny general of NY and not to my surprise they won't or claim they can't do anything because the amount of money is too small and there are not enough complaints. I have been in contact with several other buyers and all of them got sick pups from Lisa Barber one had a 6 month old die of a heart attack others had pups with giardia and were very sick. I did finally rehome my shiloh in Georgia and again Lisa managed to lie her way into having them think I abuse my dog. If one takes the time to read the vet report I placed on this report you will see my vet was not happy about the condition of the pup either with illness or hips.

So do yourself a favor and do not get involved with Lisa or her shiloh organization there are other shiloh organizations out there that are reputable and really care about the breed. If one looks close at the shiloh registry that Lisa controls you will see how many more litters she has produced than any other breeder in her organization.

Please be careful and do not send money to her you will never see it again and if you are lucky enough to get your puppy take to a vet right away to make sure it is healthy.

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#3 Author of original report

update with vet statement

AUTHOR: Arthur - ()

I am updating with photos of my veterinarians assessment of the Shiloh Shepherd I got from Lisa Barber
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#4 Author of original report

statement in writing from vet

AUTHOR: Arthur - ()

I thought I would update this complaint of mine with the statement from my vet on her own clinics paper and in her own words. I won't add any comments just read this and think about what she is saying about my dogs physical and mental condition when I brought her home. One more piece of information that I just got last weekend there was another couple that were there on the same day and at the same time to pick up their puppy, I had an opportunity to speak with them and they told me that their puppy also had giardia and was quite sick when they got him home.
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#5 Author of original report

Statement from vet

AUTHOR: Arthur - ()

 Today I feel much better as I now have the dog that will become my service dog and I had him all along he passed the test right from the beginning and I am the one that trained him in the first place because I have had him for 6 1/2 years. At first he was not being considered because of his age it was thought that he was too old for the program because he would be at least 8 by the time he graduated from it and then maybe he would only live another 4-6 years and that is why I bought a puppy not because I didn't have a dog but his age.

 A service dog that is to be used should be trained as soon as possible and Shadow was 7 months old and that is not to old to start the training, in point of fact most professionally trained service dogs start their training as early as a month old. Shadow was not taken in for training immediately she was taken in for evaluation to see if she had what it took to become a service dog for me. I know that a dog cannot be trained to respond to epilepsy it is something they either do naturally or not at all. However, they can be trained to recognize when their person is anxious because they can feel the energy on the leash as well as smell the chemical or hormonal changes that take place during the anxiety attack and this takes time for them to learn.

 A PTSD service dog should be of sound mental health on their own and not afraid of their own shadow and mine is so timid that if my blind female Shih Tzu gets angry at her she will run away in fear. Now that is maybe a good thing as I don't want China to be hurt who is to say but Shadow should at least stand her ground. When I took Shadow for her evaluation I was informed that she was too timid and that she would require a lot of work and even then there is a good chance that she would never overcome her timid nature. My personal belief is that the person that bred her and started to train her used a rolled up newspaper to discipline her she is afraid a folded paper and will lay down with ears back and tail tucked. That practice is no longer used in training as it has been discredited as a good way to train.
 As I stated I took Shadow to the vet within a week and I now have a statement from my vet as to the condition of Shadow when I got her and the hip problem is mentioned in it the weight loss is in it and the giardia is mentioned in it and according the vet she had that illness long before I got her. Shadow was 20 pounds underweight and she was not being starved by Lisa then she had be sick long enough to lose the weight and Lisa should have noticed that if she is half the breeder and trainer she claims to be.

 As to my statement about not telling Lisa about the giardia maybe I did overreact but I feel that what comes around go around and if she sold me a sick, genetically fearful dog without any disclosure then why should I disclose the information that I have. You accused me of being the one of causing her problems but she had long before I got them. Anyway if Lisa is so good at taking care of her dogs she should have seen the problem and called in her own vet and pay for the testing and the medications. Humans have a sort of immunity to giardia but we still get it from our pets as the parasite does like to infect most mammals and if ones immune system is compromised by an illness then they can get it from the dogs or cats they own. In my own twisted way not telling her about it is a way to make her spend the money that she got from me. When I was ready to take Shadow home Lisa told her son to wash the pup because she was covered in her own feces and he refused so I took a pup home that smelled like sh-t all the way home and had to bathe her myself, what kind of person sells a dog like that, if her son refused to clean her then one of the other staff should have done it or Lisa herself but she should never have sent her home with me in that condition.

 Yes your dog got to his feet when I got into the room just imagine my surprise when I walked into the office with the x-ray and the statement from the vet and my trainer waiting for my call so he could talk to Lisa and I find not Lisa and her son waiting for me to discuss this issue but you, your dog, and your wife there. I also conclude an ambush maybe it is part of the PTSD but it definitely is my experience that when one walks into a room like that they are in for an argument at the very least so yes my anxiety went up. I was also quite sick at the time and didn't even know it because the very next day I was in the E.R. at my local hospital and that visit cost over $5000 dollars to the taxpayers of this country being disabled and having medicare does cost the taxpayers. You mentioned the hunting knife I wear on my hip I wear it because I walk the dogs in wooded areas and need it to cut down thorn bushes and have had it to free my little Shih Tzu from a thorn bush as it caught his tail and I don't like being stuck by thorn. I also carry it for protection from things like Coyotes that I have seen, bears that have come into town (not that I would survive the encounter but the bear would know that I was around) and wild dogs that live around here and mountain lions. I have never seen a mountain lion  around here but a friend of mine swears that her Great Pyrenees was killed by one and a local taxi driver swears he saw one, but why take the chance not to mention the red fox that I have seen. Also believe it or not deer can be very dangerous I learned that lesson at the age of 14. There are also skunk with rabies and other animals that carry rabies and maybe just maybe a hunting knife can save my life or the life of one of my dogs. I have that knife on my hip most of the time and don't even remember it is there until I need it. If you were fearful of me when I left it had nothing to do with the knife as I never made any gesture towards it, I do as you saw carry a cane to help me keep my balance if I was to use a weapon it would be that as I do know how to use it to defend myself. Your fear had nothing to do with me other than I got angry at being ambushed and tried to grab my x-ray and paperwork to leave because I could see this issue was not going to be resolved in any satisfactory manner for me, I knew I was stuck with this dog and was angry. I had to sell all of my antique canes that were made of silver and others were carved ebony and ivory from the late 19th and early 20th century, it took me ten years to collect them and 2 months to sell them at a substantial loss to me.

 As for me giving you Shadow that is out of the question considering I now think of you as part of the problem not the solution. Shadow is going up for adoption in a rescue that I trust to find her a good foster with someone experienced with fearful dogs and one that will give me a guarantee that none of you ever gets this poor girl again. Along with all the papers and vet papers they will get a copy of the vet report stating the condition of my little girl. She is a great dog with plenty of intelligence she learns extremely fast and she is very attached to me so much so that I changed her name to shadow because she has become my shadow. I never asked Lisa to return my money just exchange for pup that was not fearful she happened to have two white pups and I happen to love white animals but I would never give up one of my animals just to get a white one. Shadow will get a home with someone who understands her fearful nature and I am not asking for one dime from anyone that will get her, I just won't give her to anyone I think may hurt her or neglect her in any form. One more thing about the contract if Shilohs are so stable then why is in there that if the dog is excessively fearful does it say she will exchange it. Most reputable breeders will if the dog doesn't work out in the new home will take the pup back and return a portion of the money they got for the pup, they keep a portion of the money for their troubles but that is expected. To have a breeder flat out refuse to even consider it bodes ill for them.

 I have tried for 5 months to get satisfaction over this issue i.e. a different pup with less fear not money acknowledgment of this issue or even just an apology for my troubles on this issue but all I got was lies, ambushed by her and her friends telling me about this breed suffering with growing pains and her dog walking around as if he had three legs until he was fully grown, on and on and on.

 Now my only concern is finding her a home with good people that I feel comfortable with that can help her become the best girl that she can become for her own happiness. It will be hard on me as I have grown quite attached to her and love her no matter her faults but they are not her fault they are someone elses. I feel as if I am abandoning her for the third time in her life but I am confident that I people I chose to ask for help from will be the best ones for her. I have chosen not to photograph my vets statement to add to this as a photo upload as it wouldn't matter to you if it said she was sold to me with three legs
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#6 REBUTTAL Individual responds

Truth by the Numbers

AUTHOR: Tom Kuligowski - ()

1. First a clarification.  #3 above is my Individual Response; but it shows the Author as being Lisa Barber.  Since Art has made such an issue of me being there only to back up Lisa I want to state here that she is in no way the Author.  She did not ask me to write my comments.  She did not read them before I posted them and she did not have any control over the content or phrasing.  My name is Tom Kuligowski and I am the co-owner of GV Ch Zions New Start for Qudrat, SD, CGC, TT.  My comments are my own and I swear they are accurate and true.
2. I also want to say that I have known Lisa Barber for more than five years and I am proud to consider her my friend.  She is an honest person and a fair and responsible business person.
3. The rest of these comments are addressed directly to Art.  Since you took nearly 400 words to call me a liar, lets look at some of your statements:
4. So Shadow now has a fear of people.  Of course she does.  You have expected her to be a service dog now when she shouldnt even begin any formal training for this complex lifes work for another year.  You stated, The biggest problem is her feeding off my emotions when I am anxious or angry she becomes the same [sic] and that is not what I need her to do.  She is supposed to distract me from my emotions and should be able to distract me with a touch and not become a shivering mess.  No, she shouldnt.  No, she shouldnt.  No.  No.  No.  All she should be doing right now is getting to know you with play and basic obedience.  However, when I consider your comments like, my blood pressure would have risen to a point I would have had a stroke or I would lose control of myself; and, As for my behavior with people you should know that I think he [sic] human race needs to eliminated [sic] from the planet.  Wow.  How can any young dog work out her place and function in her new pack when confronted with someone like you.
5.  I would not ever cast doubt on your medical condition.  Im not a doctor and I do not know you well enough to do so.  Based solely on your own statement that, I have been abused by people all of my life and dont like them at all, it does seem very possible, however, that your problems may be more deep-seated and complex than can be solved by a service dog, no matter how innately sensitive to you she might be or how extensively and expertly she is trained.   
6.   How can you possibly state that, I dont believe in harming my dogs and the only way I will harm a dog is if it attacks me or one of my dogs.  What type of attack did any of the innocent dogs at New Zion Shilohs make against you that you feel justified in withholding health information from Ms. Barber because you wanted, her dogs to get as sick as mine did?
7.  You state, Lisa is very good at making people believe what she wants them to believe   This obviously implies that she lied and twisted the truth particularly regarding the issue of Shadow being infected with Giardia.   I did some research of my own.  According to the Federal Government Centers for Disease Control (CDC), Giardia  is the single most common water-borne infection in the United States with some 2,500,000 cases every year (When someone takes that trip to Mexico and all their friends laugh and say, Dont drink the water, this is what they are cautioning against.  You can also get it from unwashed fruit and produce at the local grocery store or contaminated water.  One individual in the report contracted Giardia from a single unwashed grape he ate in the checkout line!).  The point here is this is an extremely common problem, not some hideous form of plague.  Yes, people do get it and they can even get it from their pets.  But.  That is extraordinarily rare and unlikely since the form of the disease that affects animals is different from that which affects people.  The usual way for it to spread through a kennel is either from a tainted water source or from animals eating each others feces or from licking each others urine.  It is so easily spread that if it came from Lisas kennel she should have been ankle deep in diarrhea from sick dogs.  Instead, you were waiting for it to happen at New Zion at a later date; and she passed her annual State Department of Agriculture (DOA) inspection in January; and the dog had a current Health Certificate.  Also, there are several effective drugs for treating Giardia but you dont vaccinate against it its a parasite, not a virus or bacteria.
8. My dog absolutely did come to his feet, hackles up, and bark when you came in the room.  The requirement , however, is to put the whole scene into context.  You stormed into that room.  From the moment you entered you were belligerent, unpleasant, loud and obnoxious.  After you left, my wife, Lisa, and the kennel employee all said they were afraid of you (and the knife you were wearing on your belt didnt help matters any).  Again, I quote you directly:  A service dog is not supposed to bark as people enter a room or make threats unless the owner is being threatened to begin with.  We all felt threatened by your behavior; your temper was already lost when you pulled into the driveway and parked your car in Lisas flower bed.  Yes, I do remember the scene, and you should remember that the dog did not lunge or snap at you.  He stood and barked, announcing his awareness of a potential problem and giving warning.  He did his job as hed been trained to do and then stopped and returned to a down-stay when commanded to do so.  And, again, just for clarification, he passed his test just fine:  He scored 95 out of 100 on his temperament test (he just didnt like the stranger animal a somewhat aggressive goat).  He rated a perfect score on his Canine Good Citizen test (an AKC program,  by the way); besides being the 2010 Shiloh Service Dog of the Year, his is the 2012 Grand Victor (the number 1 winning Shiloh show dog for the year (because of our disabilities, neither my wife nor I can run him in the show ring.  In more than 20 shows last year he was handled by at least 15 different exhibitors, most of whom were total strangers he met at ringside.  He actually has a release command so that children in Wal-Mart can pet him and licking baby toes is his favorite hobby.  Last week we were at a concert in Rochester and were the last to leave because so many people in the audience wanted to meet him after the show.  This guy has a lot fewer temperament issues that  you do, sir.
9. The International  Shiloh Shepherd Registry (ISSR) is intentionally independent from AKC because Lisa and her mother, breed founder Tina Barber wanted it that way.  The Shiloh Shepherd is based on the German Shepherd but it has outcrosses to other breeds as part of a specific plan to create a bigger,  healthier, friendlier, more intelligent dog.  They cant be part of the German Shepherd registry because theyre not German Shepherds.  Theyre not included in AKC because the breed is still under development.  To state otherwise is deliberately deceptive.  Another clarification:  AKC does not require breeders to test hips or elbows, eyes, hearts, DM (a spinal defect),  pancreatic problems.  The ISSR requires these tests/health certifications in order for the dog to get its adult papers.  The AKC does not.  The only thing let me repeat this the only thing the AKC guarantees is that a dog of a registered breed is  purebred; that is, both parents are that breed (the AKC issues papers that state only that a particular poodle sire and a particular poodle dam produced a particular poodle puppy).   Thats it.  Period.
10.  We could go back and forth forever disputing each others honesty, disparaging each others integrity, and beating the he said / she said dead horse without end and still get nowhere.  I will attempt to settle the dysplasia issue by sending the x-ray you did provide to Lisa to OFA at my expense and try to get a preliminary certification on her hips (or do you also want to accuse Lisa of being able to manipulate that independent organization like you think she can do her vet?)
11. No matter the outcome of that action, I am also willing to take Star/Shadow back myself, even driving the 3 hours to pick her up.  I firmly and positively  believe you  ruined this poor dog;  but I am willing to re-evaluate her, try to re-socialize her, and then re-home her with someone else.  I dont owe you anything and have no obligation to you at all in any way.  I will not reimburse you any money and would never consider giving you a replacement dog to break, but it would be satisfying for Star/Shadow to have the possibility to lead a happy and useful life with anyone else since you are, sir, again quoting you directly, a vindictive person. 
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#7 Author of original report

Yes you were there

AUTHOR: Arthur - (USA)

  Yes you were there and I did lose my temper and I would not sit down as the only seat available was next to you and your dog which as you should remember did stand and bark at me and I don't take chances with other peoples dogs. I did say I would breed the dog however I did not say that I would take the dog so far away that lisa would not be able to find her as I live far enough away that she wouldn't bother to try to locate her. Also I never threatened or called Lisa any names as I know that I can get arrested for that and I do not like being in jail and I may be ill but I am not stupid. When I get that angry these days I just walk away to save myself the trouble. I do have trouble staying in one train of thought but that is the PTSD and the Temporal Lobe Epilepsy I can't help that. You were there to back Lisa up not to do an honest evaluation of the dog not one of you asked to see her walk up or down stairs. The only time Lisa asked to see the dog was when I finally had enough stress from all of you that I needed to leave or my blood pressure would have risen to a point I would have had a stroke or I would lose control of myself that is PTSD and the funny thing about that is the dog would not let Lisa near her when lisa came went to the window to see her the dog moved to the other side of the car, how do you explain that. Yes I had a lady with me she has been with me for 17 years and she is just as angry at the way I have been treated by all of you as I am.  You stated you are a vietnam vet and you had your service there but when he barked and stood up with his hackles up I thought it better to keep my distance as I know he could sense my frustration.

  As to my telling Lisa that the dog had Giarida I didn't as I was hoping that her dogs would get as sick as mine did from it. I am a vindictive person when I am hurt or misused by someone. For her to state that my dogs could have been the carriers is not possible as my dogs are never near a stream,lake or pond that could be infected by it. They are only given water from the tap I never allow them to drink from puddles after storms as I know there are illnesses that they can get and I also have them inoculated against illnesses that they can get from drinking from puddles just in case I don't stop them in time.

  For you say that I ran outside and lay across the window to prevent anyone from seeing the dog is ridicules when all cars have 4 sides and I am not large enough to cover an entire car. I never threatened to harm the dog as I don't believe in harming my dogs and the only way I will harm a dog is if it attacks me or one of my dogs. I do never harm my dogs as you suggest. I wouldn't leave her with Lisa as after the encounter with all of you I knew that you couldn't be trusted to be honest. I already paid to have the hips x-rayed and had a report and the x-ray from my vet there. As for my behavior with people you should know that I think he human race needs to eliminated from the planet, I have been abused by people all of my life and don't like them at all. I do however love my dogs more than anything and find it impossible for me to harm them. I am capable of harming a person should I get angry enough but I as I stated above I am not stupid and know the penalty for such an action and I will walk away first. Also for your information I am not able to run at all as my legs would give out if I tried the nerves in my lower back won't take the shock that running causes.
  The recommendation from the trainer that I use was that I don't even bother to try to give her back to Lisa but to put into a rescue agency that has people that don't have PTSD and can help the Shadow overcome her fears of people. I could not find one that had room for her I even called the German shepherd rescue in Tully NY they didn't have room but they did know Lisa and her mother very well and told me that I should have called them first because they could not get there German Shepherds in the German Shepherd registry because of their breeding practices.

  Shadow is in training for her social issues this is the first time in my life I have had to resort to a trainer for social issues with one of my dogs and it frustrates me but I am doing everything I can to help her overcome her distrust of people. For your information Shadow doesn't fear me at all in fact her name is Shadow because she follows everywhere I go I can't even leave the house to go to the store without her coming with me. She sits in the car waiting for me to come out of the store and is very happy to see me. When she is in a fearful state of mind she hides behind me. Does that sound like a dog that has been abused by me? If I was the one that harmed her she wouldn't hide behind me for protection she would stand to the side and pull as hard as she could to get away from whatever frightened her. Just because I don't like people and don't get along with very well doesn't mean I will harm an animal they are the only thing I trust. That is why I need a psychological service dog as they are what calms me down when I am out in public that is what Shadow was supposed to be for me as Thor is too old to go though the program it is a 2 year long process and he would be almost 9 by the time he made it through. China is almost 10 she wouldn't make it and Harry is almost 7 he is too old. My cats are not able to be service dogs are they and Gracie is only one young enough as she is 2 1/2.

  Just to state the obvious if anyone was to read this they would see that I have trouble keeping my mind running in a straight line of thought but if they were to be honest with themselves they would see that you were there only to support Lisa and save your stud from being removed from the list of eligible breeding studs. You were not there to help me in any way so in the future don't try to play the we are same card. You never even mentioned that you had lost your German Shepherd service dog and I now know that I should have gone back to the same breeder that I got my female shepherd from and took a chance on another of his dogs. Amelia had bi-lateral hip-dysplaia and her brother Thor has hip-dysplasia in his left hip and I would have been better off dealing with him than Lisa and then you.
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#8 Author of original report

Rebuttal to Lisa's lies

AUTHOR: Arthur - (USA)

 The dog I got from New Zion Shilohs does have hip dysplasia as any vet trained at Cornell vet school knows how to perform the x-ray and read the picture. I have changed stars name to Shadow so I will refer to her as Shadow. Her hip report is that the ball in the left hip is to small for the socket and it will become a problem to her later maybe between 4-6 years of age. The breed is supposed to live 12-14 years and 4-6 is not really middle aged. She is now 1 and doesn't use the leg going down stairs and I have also seen her try not use it much going up stairs. Shadow (Star) was sold as a puppy at the age of 7 months old. I didn't take her out of the car on the visit as I was not asked to Lisa only wanted to see the x-ray along with her friends I also gave the vet statement to her as well. I was under attack from the moment I got into the office until my PTSD got the better of me and my anger just welled up inside of me and I walked out of the office. Shadow (Star) also came to me with Giardia which infected not only the other 3 dogs but the 2 humans as well we all had to go on medication for it. Shadow was sold to be a service and she did need to trained I believe that I did state I took her to be trained and the trainer stated that she would not be a good service dog for me as her fear or as he put it resource guarding was too intense. I took in for evaluation 1 week after I bought her and if she had the temperament to become a good service dog her personality would have allowed her to be evaluated without problems. I am still trying to get accepted into the program and when I take her there I have to leave her with others so that she can try to overcome her fears of people. I cannot say why she fears people but she does it may be genes or abuse I don't know. So far she has come close to biting 2 people and I have never in 50 years of having dogs had one bite anyone ever.

I did refuse to leave Shadow with Lisa for her vet to check out for two reasons one is I have to drive for 3 1/2 hours one way to her house and my back and hips won't take the trip very often the other and most important reason is I know what she would do anyway she would convince her vet that the hip problem is not that bad as it won't cripple her until much later in life. This I am certain of because when I was in the office I was arguing with not just her over the dogs health but her friends that had nothing to do with my purchase of the dog about what they said was not a hip problem. In fact her friend was supposed to have Shadows father their that is supposed to be the top service dog for Shilohs however when I entered the room the dog came to his feet and started to bark at me and that ladies and gentlemen does not make a good service dog as they won't pass the tests. A service dog is not supposed to bark as people enter a room or make threats unless the owner is being threatened to begin with.

As to Lisa's claim that hip-dysplaia has to affect both hips that is her way of denying that the problem with become disabling. My male German Shepherd has mild dysplasia on his left side only and at the age of 6 1/2 it is starting to bother him sometimes he has trouble standing up as hips hurt and I am giving him medications for the problem.

Lisa is very good at making people believe what she wants them to believe she told me that Shadow already showed the trait of recognizing when someone was in trouble as she stated Shadow tried to alert 
a person at a fair that he was in trouble and he was supposed to have diabetes and she saved him. The problem with this is one after I had already given her a $400 downpayment Lisa told me that her friend from Oklahoma just dropped Shadow off in a crate without telling anyone that she was doing this so how could she know about any attempt on the dogs part to alert them on their illness. Second Shadow was so starved for attention she would have gone up to anyone just to say hello. When she was first brought out for me to see her she jumped all over me and Ida and my other dogs with great excitement. Shadow was also quite starved for food as she was 20 pounds underweight. After I had her spayed she reacted to the sutures and I had to get her to a vet to make sure she was alright and he was not my regular vet. He was angry at me because she was underweight and had no muscle mass on her hips, her spine was still showing and so were her ribs. I have finally been able to put some weight on her but I have been told to keep her thin so her hip won't just give out when she gets older.When I first saw Shadow she was covered in her own feces and Lisa told her son to wash her and he refused to do so and all he did was brush her down.

In all honesty during the process of meeting the dog and dealing with Lisa and her stalling tactics I was not going to purchase the dog but here is the rub if I had not finished the deal I would have lost my $400 downpayment and as a person on social security disability insurance with a very limited income I couldn't afford to lose it. I should have as I have already put $1500 more into her health issues and then the Giardia has cost medicare another $5000 for my e.r. visit and another doctors bill after that plus all the medications it took to get rid of the parasite I got from the dog. I know that there is no way for me to win any part of my money back or for Lisa to honor her part of our deal as most of it was done over the phone and for a verbal contract to be binding there needs to a third party to hear it. I just don't want anyone else to go through what I am going through now. Shadow is in training but she has not been accepted into service dog training. No one knows if she can become a service dog  because of her fear of people but we are trying to help her overcome the fear if she can overcome it then maybe she will be accepted into the program, However, if she is not accepted into the program I will never have the service dog I need. There are good dog breeders but not this one please look for another breed for a service dog as this one will never be recognized by the AKC or any other legitimate kennel club and I don't believe they have the personality for the work. If you want a dog that will tell you someone is at the door and then run into the other room that is your choice.
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#9 REBUTTAL Individual responds

Sire's Owner

AUTHOR: Lisa.Barber - (United States of America)

My wife and I co-own Stars Sire.  He is my wifes mobility assistance service dog, and he is the2010 ISSR Shiloh Shepherd Service Dog of the Year.  That is true and we are very proud of it since my wife did the training herself. 

However, I am sitting here shaking my head in anger and disbelief at what you changed, twisted, and simply made up.  For the record:  We dont stud [the] dog out; nor were you  ripped offbecause it would have cost her friend [me] money.  Our male has only sired 2 litters in 4 years, and those breedings only took place because the pedigrees and genetics were such that the potential offspring were likely to improve the breed.  By the way, we didnt make any stud fees or any other money from those breedings.  Its also unlikely that our male will be bred more than once in the next year.  But, what the heck make up whatever sounds good to you.

Id also really like to know who was against you.  There were 6 people at New Zion that day:  you, the woman you were traveling with, Lisa Barber, a kennel employee, my wife and me.  Do you know why we were there?  Because I am a Viet Nam era disabled vet.  I was injured in a training accident that left me with severe nerve and muscle damage and changed my life forever.  I suffer from severe depression and anxiety.  I lost my 9 year old German Shepherd service dog last year.  After a year of grieving, I am ready to get a puppy to train as my mobility/psychological service dog.  We were at New Zion discussing up-coming litters.  Sound familiar?  We thought we could help since we had so much in common.  Wed also bred German Shepherds for more than 20 years and were very familiar with dysplasia.

But talking with you proved impossible. You hollered, you waved your arms around, you refused to sit down, you paced back and forth, you bounced from one subject to another without any apparent connection, you called Lisa names, you threatened to harm the dog, At one point, you stated that you would take Star so far away that Lisa could never find her, and you would breed her as much as you want until you got what you wanted.  You refused to take Star out of the car, you even ran out to the driveway and laid across the car window to prevent Lisa from looking in the window to see Star.  You supposedly came to New Zion to return the dog but you wouldnt even leave her there long  enough for Lisa to have her hips properly evaluated.  Your behavior was bizarre, intimidating, bullying, and scary.

As far as the dogs condition Is concerned:  I totally agree with Lisa that any problem with Stars leg or hip is pano, not dysplasia (unless it was the result of abuse or an injury caused by you; considering your behavior that I witnessed with people, I could never rule out damaging behavior toward the dog). 

Although we didnt discuss it when you were at New Zion, I will comment on Stars temperament since you bring it up here.  Lisa explains the LER in her response to your complaint.  My wife and I were both present for the LER, as was the owner of the dam.  The LER was conducted be a qualified tester and was supervised by Lisa herself via Skype.  Additionally, it was observed by two other persons, both of whom are veterinary students.  It was also video recorded.  Star was handled by strangers from head to toe and exposed to many different new and stressful circumstances (like a maze, loud noises, etc.).  She exhibited no signs of abnormal stress.  3 months later, when she went to New Zion for placement, she was evaluated by a group of approximately 50 strangers as part of a training seminar.  Although she showed some initial shyness, within 30 minutes or so she was calm, curious and friendly.  I also saw her interacting with many people and other dogs at New Zion.  There was nothing inherently wrong with that dogs temperament.  There is, I am afraid, great potential for you to ruin her.  If you are willing to go back to square one with a qualified trainer and start this process over, with patience and work you might have an effective service dog in a year; but you shouldnt get another dog at this time to risk damaging.
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#10 REBUTTAL Owner of company

New Zion Response to Art

AUTHOR: Lisa.Barber - (United States of America)

My name is Lisa Barber.  I own New Zion Shilohs.  I sold Art a 5-month female puppy named Star.  When I sold this puppy she was structurally sound, temperamentally stable, and in good health.

I sold him Star because he wanted a psychological service dog because of his PTSD and a seizure alert dog because of his epilepsy.  But I did not sell him a service dog.  I sold him a puppy.  She was an untrained, unsocialized 5-month old baby.

Art received a written contract with a written guarantee.  He knew exactly what he was receiving, under what terms and conditions.  That contract included a discount of more than 50% off the normal purchase price because of his status as a disabled vet.

Star does not have crippling hip dysplasia.  Dysplasia does not appear in only one hip; it always manifests in both hips.  At 6 months to 2 years many dogs develop pano.  It is the equivalent of growing pains in adolescent children.  It is non-threatening and dogs out-grow it as they mature.  It produces symptoms of pain and limping exactly as described.

True dysplasia can only be confirmed by specific x-rays taken by a specially trained veterinarian and submitted for analysis to an accredited organization such as the Orthopedic Foundation of America (OFA).  Art refused to do this at his expense; and he refused to leave Star with me so it could be done at my expense.  In fact, he refused to allow Star out of the car so I could observe the limp myself.  We actually argued at the time because he really wanted to just trade Star for a white Shiloh pup he wanted more and I refused.

His vets comment (if accurate) that she might develop an issue in 6 years is immaterial.  A 6 year old is the equivalent of a 40-45 year old human.  A little arthritis at middle age doesnt mean a person needs a hip replacement or has to stop working.  It just means they might need a daily aspirin the same with a dog.

I guarantee Stars hips.  If he produces documentation from (OFA) that she is dysplastic, I will replace her.

However, it wasnt until he didnt get his own way on the dysplasia issue that Art raised the temperament issue.  But even his trainer, with whom I talked, agreed that his expectations are too much, too soon, for so young a dog.

Every one of my puppies is thoroughly tested for temperament through a process called a Litter Evaluation Report (LER).  Stars LER indicated she has the temperament characteristics that would make her potentially an excellent candidate for a life as a service dog.  But I did not sell a service dog.  Producing a service dog requires, at a minimum, 2-4 months of adapting to her new environment, new household, new people, other animals, etc.; 6-12 months of basic obedience and extensive socialization (going to the park, pet stores, puppy class, etc.) to be exposed to as many different situations and environments as possible; then followed by 12-18 months of increasingly complex, task-specific training for service work.  Art was made well-aware of this time frame before paying any money and before picking Star up.  One of the reasons he was sold Star was his claim that he has access to a professional trainer to guide him through this complex process.

Again, I did not sell a fully grown, fully trained service dog.  I sold a puppy with great potential.  No  breeder can or will guarantee that a particular dog will win in the show ring,  become an obedience champion, be a successful police drug-sniffing dog, be the perfect service dogor even never pee on the carpet.  There are too many variables involved in developing a living, intelligent animal for service work.

The issues he complained about are far more likely to be the result of handler impatience, training errors, and unreasonable demands placed on an unprepared puppy. 

I guarantee the stability of her temperament and am willing to take Star back; but I will not replace her unless and until an independent evaluation and re-training proves the fault lies with her.  This requires time and money.

Art has never once complained to me about Star being ill in any way.  He certainly never mentioned Giardia not in person, not by e-mail, not on the phone.  This condition is highly  contagious; Star could have picked it up anywhere, including from his other animals.  When Star left my kennel she had a current health certificate and showed no sign of disease.  To claim that any illness that Star now has is the result of negligence on my part is ridiculous.

Finally, I will not even dignify his slanderous nonsense about a any other dog.  I guarantee my own dog in accordance with her contract.
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#11 Author of original report

Dog Breeders

AUTHOR: Arthur - (United States of America)

  Please don't fall for the same line I did and do not ever accept anyone at their word may sure you get it in writing as verbal contracts are only good if both party's are going to admit to it or if there is a couple of witnesses
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