Providian Financial RIPOFF denied cash rebate, no fee reversal, high interest rate San Francisco California

I recently recieved an offer to apply for an providian visa! I recently gotten a letter stating they have denied my request for credit due to the following reasons: YOU HAVE A PUBLIC RECORD ON YOUR CREDIT BUREAU REPORT!, YOU DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH AVAILABLE BANK TYPE REVOLVING CREDIT, PROPORTION TO HIGH ON REVOLVING ACCOUNTS IS TO HIGH, what does that high credit is to high provdian has LIED!!!! stating I have these things on my credit report which I don't! I do not have a public record on my credit files because I have a copy of my credit files with my & I do not have the things that they state I have on my credit files. I do not appericate them lying about me to deny me credit it I have good credit to them they are making me look like I have bad credit I will never apply for their credit offers again!. I have submitted a complaint to the better business bureau for their lies that they have said about me in their desicision stating I have a public record filed which I do not!. I am tired of being denied for credit cards I do not have bad credit! which they state I do have I will keep their letter has evidence to prove I don't have a public record filed on my credit reports to prove that they have lied about me! so they could not give me a new credit card anyways I do not need to have a credit card from these thieves anyways after reading all the negative reports on this website about them! I will also report them to my attorney generals office for their unfair credit desicion & for lying about me stating that I have a public record on my credit files which I don't I can show them a copy of my credit report to catch them in their d**n lies!. Providian like other credit card companies like capital one are nothing but LIARS & CHEATS: EQUAL CREDIT OPPORTUNITY IS FOR EVERYONE. PROVIDAN did not have to lie about anything just to deny me credit these liars! this has me pissed off for them stating I have a public record on my credit files which I don't its a good thing I keep my credit reports to prove that providan are liars I do not care how i spell their name I am very PISSED!!!! of at these CROOKS&LIARS!!!!!!!!.

Since I switched to a DIFFERENT card from a DIFFERENT bank that has a cash back program, in less than two months my first $50 cash rebate check is on its way to me. As I did with the Providian card, I pay in full each month, EVERY month, and never incurred a finance charge, an annual or late fee, just straight cash in my pocket.

The person who keeps providing rebuttals stated that entering into a credit card agreement is entering into a contract, and I absolutely agree. I agree so much, that if you enter into a contract for a credit card that requires you to turn over your first born child if you miss a payment (see "Fine Print," page 4, paragraph 6, line 18), well then, be prepared to do so should you miss that first payment.

My issue is that Providian gave me an annual fee waiver because it was in their best interest to do so, twice. When it was no longer in their best interest (because I had racked up $150 in cash rebates and had never paid a fee or a penny in interest) then they decided NOT to waive the annual fee. I completely understand why they did that, at least why they think that was a good idea. A $60 annual fee is $60 less they don't have to pay me back out of the $130 they owe me. My whole argument is...why? Not why because I am too stupid to understand my contract and my responsibilities, I got edukashun. My question is, why was it STILL not in their best interest? Every charge I did they received a merchant fee of a few percentage points, WAY more revenue then my cash back they owed me. At the end of the day, even with the cash back they owed, they were still making much more money by keeping me as a customer than not.

In my contract it CLEARLY and CONCISELY states that I am subject to an annual fee, I never questioned that. And this is the second rebuttal I stated that in. But from a business perspective (something the person who rebuttaled constantly NEVER answered which is the ONLY question I wanted an answer to) was why was it NO LONGER in their best interest to keep me as a customer. Did they have a right to charge the annual fee? Of course!

For Providian, was it worth losing a customer over? Was it worth losing all the merchant revenue I gave them since I only used their card for EVERYTHING because of the Cash Back Program. Was several hundred dollars in merchant revenue worth a hundred dollars in cash back incentives. The math would suggest it is, but I guess it was not.

Although the person who keeps rebuttaling would have you believe otherwise, I am not complaining about the fee. I am complaining about the lack of business and individuals to think "outside of the box" and answer my question.

The funny thing is, if you look at my initial posting, I didn't say EVEN ONCE, that I was confused or thought I did not have an annual fee...my entire post was about how Providian decided they were no longer making enough money on me to waive the fee and my argument ever since has been about the BUSINESS decision to do that, to let me go as a customer when it would appear that the merchant revenue I generate is substantially more than whatever cash back rewards they would owe me. Unfortunately, the person rebuttling was too caught up in the fee, and not the concept around it. So again, my question, is it cost effective for a bank to offer a cash back program to someone who never incurrs interest or fees...do they make enough off of the merchant fees to cover their costs associated with such an individual? If they do, then Providian made a mistake in letting me go by not waiving the fee again. If they don't, then prepare for the current no-fee cash back cards to change the T&C's once they attract enough of the market.

From MY prior post, "I also never said in any of my postings that I was entitled to a fee waiver, so I don't know where you got that from. My interest is, and has been, the mechanics of the business decision behind what makes a credit card company decide to waive the fee or not, especially in this case." And HER response, "I am so sick of reading posts from people on this site complaining about being charged fees for this and that. No one ever accepts responsibility for what they did to get the fee. Give me a break already."

At the end of the day, Providian made no money off of me (only from the merchants I swiped at) and I paid no money to Providian, ever. With my new card, which I use to pay for EVERYTHING now, and gets ALL my business and ALL the merchant revenue, they seemed pretty happy to send me that $50 today. I guess maybe THIS company understands my question. Maybe it IS in their best interest to pay ME..to use THIER card and no other for all that lovely merchant revenue.

George, maybe you need to go back and re-read my responses. I never said a thing about closing the account if you didn't get your fee waived. I never said a thing about banks having a certain number of 'courtesies'. You are totally missing the point here. My intention was never to engage in a full fledged argument regarding the ins and outs of fee removal on credit cards. Isn't this website designed for consumers to share their experiences (good and bad) and offer each other advice? That is what I was trying to do and you are getting all worked up about it.

You are absolutely right about a certain number of courtesies. We did not have a certain number. I did speak with customers who in venting about another credit card they had told me that some banks do have a certain number of allowed fee waivers. So I'm sure some probably do. I would not be surprised if Providian did. I used to have an account with them and they charged fees for everything. On top of that, my customer service experiences with them were HORRIBLE. Maybe I expect too much having worked for a bank that is well known for customer service. I don't recommend to anyone to have an account with them. If I could name the bank I used to work for I would encourage everyone on this site to get a Visa with them. You would be blown away by the customer service. Also, there is no annual fee.

Closing an account hurts your FICO if there is a balance on it. That much is true. There could also be truth to your claims that they won't waive the fee because of the cash back reward you received. Who knows?? You need to remember they are in this business TO MAKE MONEY. Period. I am so sick of reading posts from people on this site complaining about being charged fees for this and that. No one ever accepts responsibility for what they did to get the fee. Give me a break already. Getting a credit card is just like entering into a contract--you wouldn't sign one without reading it so why get a credit card without learning the terms? If I had a dollar for everytime a customer told me "I didn't know about that" I would be rich and wouldn't have to work. If you don't like the fee, transfer your balance to a card with a good rate and better benefits. They are out there! You seem awfully agitated about this fee so why don't you stop griping and get rid of the card. Transfer the balance, close it and move on!!

Unfortunately, typing what would normally be a 10 minute conversation takes two pages of text so that may seem like a lengthy response to you but if we were chatting, it would be half a cup of coffee's worth.

To clarify your first point, if someone doesn't want to pay an annual fee then they shouldn't get a card that charges one, I have NEVER disagreed with that but you keep harping on it like I am surprised that my card that came with a fee is charging me one. I am well past that point. I have cards that are fee free and cards that waive the fees every year and when those cards try to stop waiving the fee I will close them and open a new card that's fee free.

An additional point you should keep in mind is that closing a credit card can hurt your FICO score. This card had a nice fat available balance on it and as long as they weren't charging me an annual fee, I kept it. The moment they did, I closed it. So that should answer your question as to why I didn't simply close the account before since it IS an annual fee charging account, I liked what it did for my FICO.

Since I believe the real reason they would not waive my fee was because I had accrued a decent cash back reward, I am interested if that decision by them is now standard operating procedure. For example, I think it would be safe to assume now that fee-free cards will, within a year or two's time, change their T&C's to begin charging an annual fee once enough people sign up for their 'no-annual fee cash-back rebate program.'

Sounds like a beautiful business decision to me. Get customers to sign up for your card by offering a cash-back rebate program with no annual fee...then right before they get their CASH BACK...change the T&C's to suddenly charge an annual fee. That has been my question this whole time. I don't believe I ran out of some standard set of "courtesies" written in some mysterious rule book somewhere, I simply believe they charged me a fee because I had accrued too much cash back in their own cash back program. If that is true, then what I predict to happen in the future for no-fee cards is a gurantee and should be a warning for people who carry no-fee cards with cash rebates that pay off the balance every month.

I also never said in any of my postings that I was entitled to a fee waiver, so I don't know where you got that from. My interest is, and has been, the mechanics of the business decision behind what makes a credit card company decide to waive the fee or not, especially in this case. I don't believe that my "courtesies" were used up because there is no "courtesy" rule, i.e. not all banks ALWAYS give them, or give them a set number of times, so two fee waivers is not an industry norm.

Some banks will waive the fee 3 times, 4 times, some will never waive it. Apple to apples, all things being equal...something was DIFFERENT this time, a new variable, that made them charge me the fee as opposed to waiving it. To clarify yet again, I am not surprised by the charge, I am not distressed by the charge, I am aware that my contract with them allows them to make the charge...got it...we're good...but as I said, apples to apples...this time a new variable came into play.

We all know and have read the news reports that credit card companies over the past year, specifically, have been raising interest rates, charging fees for things they never did before, raising annual fees, and of course...limiting or not allowing ANY fee waivers. This was an industry decision that has been in the news quite often lately.

So again, I was NOT AT ALL SUPRISED that my card tried to force the issue on the late fee, I was expecting it considering all the news about card companies and the $150 in cash rebates I had accumulated. I am stating for anyone who reads this that they should be aware that a bank is much LESS likely to waive your fee, if you have had the fee waived before or not, if you a)pay on time in full every month, and/or b)are using the cards cash back rebate program and are, GOD FORBID, actually earning CASH BACK.

An additional point to this story is, and a reason why I am looking at the DECISIONS behind the scene from the credit card companies....how long do you actually think fee-free cards will stay fee free? Even the new cards I have that do not charge annual fees, I FULLY expect them, within a year or two, to change their cardholder agreements and institute an annual fee. In other words, as consumers, we can expect to rotate all of our credit cards every few years as we close previously fee-free cards that suddenly change their policy and charge a fee and open new fee-free cards. I have no problem with this. The whole point is to understand the system and work around it to your advantage. To understand the system completely, I want to understand the REAL reason why they would not waive my annual fee. And again, I believe it was simply because I had actually made money in their cash back program.

Your argument is because I ran out of "courtesies." I disagree. There is no industry or company policy on the number of "courtesies" that a bank can extend. If I had a few million dollars wrapped up in a some investement vehicle for a bank, you really think they would not waive my annual fee, yet again, even if it says in their little rule book that I can only get two? Every bank can waive the fee, if they want to. This is not a die-hard rule, the banks look at it on a case-by-case basis. In my case, I had made too much in the cash-back program and had yet to pay a finance charge, so in my "case" they chose NOT to waive it. That simple. If I had paid some interest in the past year or never signed up for the cash back program, I believe, they would have been much more likely to waive it yet again.

Also, when I asked Providian about the fee waiver, they never said that I had used up some fixed amount that they allow. They simply acknowledged having done it in the past and for this one, simply referred to their T&C's that there is an annual fee, period. The REAL reason they did not waive the fee is simply because they decided they did NOT want to pay me the cash rebate...it's just that simple. I had only had the card a few months....by the next year I would have had a couple hundred more in cash rebates earned on that card and they decided that I was not making them money, so they charged the fee.

And I will state this again, I am NOT SURPRISED that my annual fee carrying credit card decided to charge me a fee. I simply do not believe it was something as innocent as me running out of courtesy waivers. So for all of you using a fee-free credit card, or a card that has waived your fee before....be prepared...if you pay your card off every month, like a good little consumer...you will EVENTUALLY but INEVITABLY be REWARDED with either a denied fee waiver request despite having it waived before OR a change in your T&C's to begin charging you an annual fee after they get sick of paying you a couple hundred a year in cash rebates. That's what I see in my crystal ball.

So for anyone else who might actually read to the bottom of this novel...No big deal, just be ready to move to a new card. Use the system against itself. The only issue, is that closing and opening credit cards is not particularly good for your FICO score. This played into my decision NOT to close my annual fee charging PROVIDIAN until I absolutely had to. With such a large available balance it helps my FICO and to close it would hurt my FICO score...so even though it charges an annual fee I was not going to close it unless they tried to charge me, which is exactly what happened. So...continue to learn how the banks operate and then manipulate their processes to gurantee yourself a 0% loan even if only for 28 days, and then maximize this by getting a cash back rebate card and closing the card if they ever change the T&C to charge an annual fee. If you have several cards with fairly large balances the damage to your FICO should be minimal and you will recover it quickly, then just maintain the rotation as they try to charge you.

First off George, all I did was ask you why you thought your annual fee should be waived. There was absolutely no need for you to go on and on the way you did. The point I was trying to make is if you didn't want to pay an annual fee, you should not have the card, period. I take it you got defensive because you know that to be true.

Anyway, let me give you some insight into the way major banks work. Having worked for one for 5 years, I know a lot more about it than you do, contrary to what you may believe. You are correct in stating that ultimately it is up to the bank to decide to waive a fee or not. I would definitely waive a fee or two AS A ONE TIME COURTESY to a customer who was loyal--meaning paid their bills on time and spent money on the card. That is a good way to run the business, wouldn't you agree? In the end, the fees apply to everybody. You are not exempt from the fees because you may have a higher score than another customer. It is totally true the company would be willing to waive a fee for you over someone with say a 560 bureau score but ONLY A FEW TIMES, NOT EVERY TIME!! For you to think it should be waived every time, you are taking advantage of the generosity you were shown the few times you asked for it and now you expect everytime for your fees to be waived. That is absurd!! Of course they are in the business to make money so removing a fee is AN EXCEPTION, not A GUARANTEE.

I can understand why you would question why a few of the reps would waive the fee in the past but not currently. That is exactly the reason why they won't do it now----your 'courtesies' have been used up. You do seem intelligent enough to understand that part of the fee removal process. I can tell you right now that when I was working for my former employer we once had a meeting when we were informed the dollar amount of fees we had removed so far that year. It was a HUGE number. We were reminded the reason why fees exist and that we had to stop removing fees for everyone we wanted to. I am a easy going, friendly person. If I struck up a rappor with a customer I would probably remove whatever they wanted. Why would I care if the company lost out on $20 for a late fee. The point is, there are fees for a reason and that is what management teaches their reps. If you don't like it, don't get a credit card.

For the first rebuttal regarding the annual fee. I believe I am correct in saying that it is up to the financial institution to determine whether they want to waive an annual fee or not. Obviously the T&C on my card included an annual fee. However, Providian decided to waive that fee, more than once, over the past few years. Why did they waive it? Also, why did I get two credit limit increases at the same time as the fee waivers?

Was it because I was a good, loyal, on-time paying, non-balance carrying customer? Well, that never changed...I was still a good, loyal, on-time paying, non-balance carrying customer this most recent time they wanted to charge me an annual fee but didn't want to waive it.

Was it because they didn't want the revenue? Of course not. So let me ask you, if Providian wants the revenue then why would they EVER waive the fee multiple times and raise my credit limit? What do THEY get out of doing that, because as we all know, nobody does something for nothing. And they must get SOMETHING out of it, because there are plenty of cards with NO annual fee AND a cash back program, which of course I am now enrolled in. I know what they get...a 1% or more transaction fee for every swipe I use the card for that gets charged to the merchant by Providian. So, Providian DOES make money, just not from me. I calculate they made approx. $360 a year from the fees they charged merchants I bought from assuming Providian charges ONLY 1% to them.

Ultimately, it's a free market system so I just took my business somewhere else. I'm not upset with Providian, I am more interested in their business model to see if the costs associated with maintaining my account, which I hazard to guess were extremely cheap for them, pennies a month, (all on-line transactions, never dealt with a human, once a month payment with no revolving balance) were really worth saving those pennies as opposed to losing any future business from me in the form of car/home/etc... loans and ancillary products.

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For the second rebuttal, you are short sighted on this business analysis. As you said, businesses are here to make money. Once a company has you as a customer for one of their services, they want to bundle or up-sell you on ALL of their other services, even if it costs them something to use a loss-leader. I have Cox cable and internet, but that doesn't stop them from pitching their phone service to me all the time and all their HBO packages and whatnot.

Financial institutions don't just want my credit card business. They want to get my car loans, student loans, home loans, personal loans, re-fi's, lines of credit, credit fraud protection, life insurance, credit monitoring services, and dozens of other services they provide. They want me to get cards for my family, kids and recommend them to friends.

Keeping me a happy customer with their credit card would keep them on my list for future financial decisions I have to make which would make them thousands of dollars more than this piddley little credit card could do for them. I am only 33, which means I am still a target customer for ALL of the services I just mentioned. Providian has now eliminated themselves from my choices, and that is a short sighted business strategy.

Also please note earlier comment to the first rebuttal, that Providian makes 1% from every merchant that I swipe my card with, so Providian DOES make money, just not from me. Since I commonly carried $3,000 - $5,000 a month, Providan was making something in the order of $30-$50 a month, or more than $360 a year. I think they got theirs, wouldn't you? Even if they waived my annual fee AND gave me my rebate, they would have made about $100. In fact, their cash back program made them my EXCLUSIVE card..so they suddenly got fees from EVERY merchant I dealt with. So, do you still think it was a smart move on their part, (if even in this WORST case scenario they waive my annual fee AND gave me the cash back) since they would have made at least $100 with almost NO cost to service my account (pennies a month cost to them for online-only transactions, i.e. no overhead) and surrender any future business I may have done with them?

One other point to make here, in school they taught us that good credit was important, and that if you pay your bills on time and you maintain good credit etc, you will be rewarded. Of course, when you get older you realize that's just not true and the credit card companies would much rather you miss your payments a few times, charge up way more than you can pay off, incur lots of fees, etc... because as you said, "they have to make money off you somehow." Following that logic, can't I just get rid of my credit cards and pay cash for everything, and then write a donation for $60 a year to TransUnion, Equifax and Experian so I can have good credit? Since I am paying cash I would have NO credit, which would infer no BAD credit either since I never needed a loan to pay for anything. That to me is the ultimate in good credit...by paying cash you never live beyond your means which would require the ULTIMATE in self-restraint. Why can't I still get a good FICO score when I just pay cash?

I am FORCED to use a credit card to establish credit, and increase my FICO, and I am instructed to pay on time, in full, everytime to get a good credit score...instructions on how to have good credit come to us from our teachers, the government, Suze Orman, even the CREDIT CARD COMPANIES have areas on their website on how to establish good credit by NOT doing the very things you are saying I should be EXPECTED to do in order for me to get my good credit. And yet, according to your logic I must somehow PAY to get that good credit score...either in finance charges or an annual fee. Can't I just skip all the hassle and payoff the credit card companies or the credit rating companies...the more I pay the higher my FICO? That's what you're saying...that I have to PAY to get good credit.

So Providian chose to forgo any future business they might get from me (long term revenue goals) in exchange for short term revenue (savings of costs related to maintaining my account-next to nothing). And for every credit card company that chooses to FORCE an annual fee, there are thousands of consumers migrating away from them and giving their business to some OTHER credit card company that DOESN'T charge a fee.

One final comment, if you have or will have children then you should tell them the truth according to you. Teach them how important a FICO score is, and that only the big bad credit card companies can give it to them, and that the only way those companies will do that for us little people is to occasionally carry a balance so they can skim off of us and when that annual fee comes up? Well...that's just the price you pay for that snappy high FICO score.

Case in point, the following is from an article on MSN Money about landing a 0% interest rate card and paying it off before the teaser is up...

"Of course, the credit-card companies are betting that most people that land a 0% deal won't pay down their debt and that a big, fat balance will linger long after the interest-free period ends."

" 'What they're hoping is that there's enough customers that move their balances and leave them there,' says Les Riedl, executive vice president at Speer & Associates."

"Prove them wrong. Use the interest-free introductory period to get rid of your debt. Let the credit-card companies make their money off someone else."
Also, another excellent article...

http://www.stretcher.com/stories/961125c.cfm

Some highlights...

"About a month ago, I got a letter from my credit card company...telling me that they have selected to give me a (temporarily) lower interest rate and are giving me a $20 annual fee. Before, I had no annual fee. I pay my bill in full every month to avoid paying any interest. Therefore, the...lower interest rate did not apply to me at all. I read the fine print, and it said they were changing the terms of my account because of "insufficient activity." We charge plenty every month, but we pay it off in full. This letter was a sneaky way of telling us that they will punish us for paying our bill off every month."

"They [Credit Card Companies] also are making an effort to reduce the number of cardholders who pay their bills in full each month."

"Contact the credit card company and ask them to waive the fee. Sometimes they will and sometimes they won't. This is one time when having an excellent payment history isn't going to help."

"This past summer the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that companies can base their fees on the state where the company is located rather than the customer's location. Most companies are located in South Dakota and Delaware. You can guess why. That's were the laws are least restrictive on fees."

"Some experts are predicting a surge in the kinds of fees and the amounts charged. You'll probably start seeing fees for cash advances, calling to ask your account balance and even for not using your card enough. The best strategy is go shop around. There are over 6,000 companies that issue credit cards. Find out about some of them."

I do wonder what you were expecting from the credit card company? Free loans with no interest that make the company absolutely nothing? What would be the point? You were paying a fee because of earning the cash back. They have to make money off of you somehow. If you don't want them to do that, then don't ask for loans.

George,

I used to work for a major credit card company (not Providian). We offered a couple of different types of cards and only one of them, the Visa Signature, had an annual fee. It is the customer's responsibility to read their card materials to know and understand that they have an annual fee on the card. Is there a particular reason why you felt you shouldn't ever be responsible to pay that annual fee? I'm very curious. Not trying to argue, I just want to see if there is more to why you thought that fee should be waived.

Thanks,