VISIONTEL COMMUNICATIONS Dba VISION LABS, Epiclear Facial Spray rip-off! Dishonest billing and shipping! Eliot Maine

Sometimes is not about the quality of the product, its the marketing...Companies like VISION LABS knows how to reach the people by selling products that should solve their problems... but most of the time those products become harmful, like those that companies sell to lose weight. Sometimes we are too innocent or we want to be...we all know how dangerous could be some substances for the health...but it doesnt matter when we want to look good or just try another crappy thing.

Unfortunately, the human being is like that and we all end up buying things that we know in the subconcience they are not going to solve our problem. My point is: IF WE DONT STOP WASTING OUR MONEY IN PRODUCTS LIKE THAT, COMPANIES LIKE VISION LABS WILL KEEP TAKING ADVANTAGE OF US....HELLLLOOOO PEOPLE!!!!! THEY ARE GETTING RICHER AND WE ARE GETTING IN TROUBLES.

thanks

aly

To Dan and Katie and every other person that wrote anything about Symphonix (VisionTel). You both obviously have WAY TOO much time on your hands to be writing such lengthy statements about this company.

To Dan....i'm sorry you got fired...I hope you find something you like to do but some companies like to make money and it sounds like this company (VisionTel) does everything it can to inform the consumer of what is going on and they can get their money back if they want.

Katie....let it rest. You still have a job there...you're making money....what else is left to say. Keep it up girl!! These products obviously must work or how would the company be in business for 6 YEARS??????

Get a life people.

I have been reading the reports about EpiClear. I ordered the free trial around 17 days ago and i havent received the product yet. They haven't charged my bank account either. I was wondering what was going on. Well i went to a skin care forum and I posted this message:

ME: I ordered a free bottle more than 15 days ago. I called and someone took my INFO, but they havent charged my credit card with the 11 bucks of S&H, and i really want to try it. I was wondering if someone knew the offcial website of EpiClear or can provide me the Phone #, because i lost it. I want to know whats going on.

MY QUESTION WAS REPLIED WIH THIS MESSAGE:

The good news is that I have found some contact details for you:

Company Vision Labs
Address:P.O. Box 394, Eliot Maine 03903, U.S.A.
Phone Number: 888-434-3194

The bad news is that I found it because there are multiple reports of the company on RipOffReport.com: http://w3.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0&submit2=Search%21&q5=Epiclear&submit=Search

HTH
Mabsy

WOW I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO AFTER READING ALL THESE REPORTS. I GUESS I WILL GO TO THE BANK TOMORROW MORNING TO CHANGE MY # ACCOUNT AND EVERYTHING TO PREVENT FUTURES CHARGES OF 165.00. BESIDES, I HAVENT RECEIVED IT YET.

Dear Dave - Plaistow, New Hampshire,

I feel compelled to make a total assumption. You are right on the money, Dave! Let's call Linda, Miss Obvious.

Linda - Lakewood, Colorado,

Funny how you cut in as "Passionate Katie" dipped out.

Your rave review was far from convincing. Bad timing.

Thanks to Dave for his realism. I won't be joining the so called idiots that "rip off" Symphonix.

Mandi - Evansville, Indiana

Thank You Linda

I have recently started working for the company and since I have been "on the phones", I get a lot of customer's objections about the products. I just say in reply that I understand their concerns. We are still in business, so obviously the products must work for some people. If it doesn't work then people would return the product within the 30 day trial period. I don't know of any other companies that offer this return policy freely.

Linda - Lakewood, Colorado sounds phony...my bet is that this is an employee of Symphonix, POSING as a satisfied customer. After all, this is not the forum where a satisfied customer would go to KVEL about the stuff sold by Symphonix.

Also.........

No One is going to get THAT fast results from Epiclear (according to Justin in training, and yet HE LOVES the stuff).

Even if this is for real, Linda can buy stuff with the same formula soooooo much cheaper than Epiclear.

In response to Linda....First of all, I am very glad that the product worked for you. Unfortunately, my husband was not so lucky. If you had a pleasant experience with Visiontel Communications, then I am happy for you also. According to all of the reports filed (not just mine), it appears that you may be in the minority.

I also agreed that I had dealt with some very nice people in calling the company (very few), though most of them should not have been in the industry.

As for learning how to read, Linda, you really should have read the report from the very beginning (Classic case of the pot calling the kettle black). I never claimed at any time that I did not know about the auto-ship. The invoice clearly states that you will receive the auto-ship, unless the account is cancelled within twenty days and the trail product being sent. If you would like for me to fax a copy of my invoice to you outlining this clause, I would be happy to do so.

We did in fact cancel well before that 20 day period (five days before to be exact), yet we were still shipped $165 worth of product and charged. Human error....possibly, however upon reading so many of these claims, I fear not. The representatives were apologetic for the error, others couldn't have cared less.

I don't know what type of industry you are in Linda, but I could never defend someone for having blatant disrespect for the customer and I would certainly never hire someone like that, nor would I want them defending my company.

I Personally I had ordered some Epiclear in the beginning of May. Also like Alison,I did not want to receive the next shipment of 6 bottles after just 21 days of placing the order, I wasnt even sure if this stuff worked, I didnt want to spend $165 on something I wasnt even sure worked. I called the customer service number the day that I received my order to ensure no future shipments, or charges on my card. The lady that I spoke to was very nice, she did try to encourage me to wait until I had at least tried the product but I was very firm that I did not want any future shipments, so she canceled me out of the auto-ship program.

Unfortunetly, now I wish that I had waited, my skin hasnt been this clear since I was 10! ( I am now 42) Since I had already canceled out of the promotion, I am now paying full price for the product, but that is my own fault. I would recommend this product, and company to anybody, in fact my 14 yeat old nephew is now using epiclear with great success also. Katie, I think you are doing a great job defending your company, I think that your company is very honest, it explains right on the receipt that you get with the package about the auto-ship program, so to Alison, I think you need to learn how to read.

My fight is over, I was fotunate to receive my complete refund including shipping. However, I do feel compelled to reply to previous comments made.

Katie, I admire your passion for the company that you work for. You truly must love your job in order to defend them in the way that you do, even at the risk of seriously offending others.

However, in doing so, you come across to the reader and being very rude with little to no repsect for the customer. Therefore, not at all giving your company a good reputation.

Some people do read comsumer reports such as these before making a purchase. If they happen to read your comments - which are pretty likely considering there are so many of them - they will probably never buy anything from you. For future reference, usually if you refer to someone's "idiocy", then you are calling them "idiots", there really is no way to retract that statement that you previously made.

Katie, you can write all the rebuttals that you like. However, you have probably done more harm than good to your company. And it is because of employees like you that I will never do business with Visiontel Communications again.

First off all, I wasn't calling all of our customers idiots. There is a mere percent that do not pay attention and it is not our fault if they get themselves in to something with out realizing it. I wasn't calling them idiots. I said don't blame us for their "idiocy". That is a big difference. Everyone can make a mistake or do something stupid. That does not make you stupid in general. Come on now orlando, have you read what these people are writing? "I wasn't informed that we were going to get anymore bottles and then they charged my card. They are a ripoff". Like I have said in the past, they know what is going on, we have to tell them everything, and everything comes in the package as well. I'm just saying that because people don't pay attention, don't blame it on the company. Take some responsiblity in to your own hands and blame yourself for once.

I am not looking to get my comments posted, but I would like for Katie to see this. She made comments about consumers being idiots and not paying attention. That is not good for the business that she is in. I haven't used the product and can't really say whether it is a rip-off or anything good or bad. I was considering trying it until I read these reports and saw how Katie felt about the consumers. It definately turned me away.

First of all, like I told you many times, I do not make $30 an hour. I average about $8-$9 after federal tax and Maine tax. That is not that glamourous. You know that not many people make that much money. It all depends on your commission rate. I am still at a mere percent. I think that people should not blame the company if they do not pay attention. Yes, the scripts are long but that is because MEMBERWORKS, not our company wrote them, and they want the customer to know what it is, with no deceptions. For the products, scripts are optional. We are just to tell the customer what it is, what it does, and how the trial works. If they are interested, great. If not, what can we do. Remember, they called us. That means they were intitially interested in the product. It's not like we called them and keep them on the phone for a half an hour. I'll be honest with you. Sometimes I get customers that talk to me so much that I can't wait to get them off the phone. It is a sales business. They call, we tell, they buy. No deceptions, no scams. Like you admitted before, they know what they are getting.

The folks at Visiontel (AKA Vision Labs, and now Symphonix) are well trained. They have to be, otherwise they get fired, or else they are working there for a mere $5.15 an hour. More on that later.

Katie, if you're making less money, it's not because your employer quit overcharging people. But I agree with you, if people think it's too expensive, then they shouldn't buy it. The scam is, you work very hard to convince people that it's NOT too expensive, but by your own admission, IT IS!!!!

The scripts that are used are very specific, and designed to accomplish two things:

1. The first goal to accomplish with the script is: Get that customer to say yes over and over so that they will do so monotonously, and they will get worn down, and say yes to future shipments. The script is long and very tedious to read, and it is even MORE tedious to endure listening to. By the time the rep gets to the part about future shipments, the customer just wants to get off the phone and will answer affirmative to ANYTHING, if it will only put and end to the rep's inceasant droning. Not too smart on the part of the customer, but VERY SMART for the overcharging Vision Labs.

2. The second goal is accomplished by recording the rep reading the legalese AND recording the customer agreeing. They cover themselves legally, by badgering the customer into agreeing to larger orders, future shipments, memberships to useless discount clubs, and junk like Video Professor. Most folks are so bored listening to that script, that they simply do not pay attention!!! And the rep may not change, nor leave out one single word or they will be fired from their minimum wage job.

It borders on theft by deception, because they KNOW people are NOT listening and yet they are agreeing (on tape) to buy, buy, buy. If you are a crook, this sounds like pure genius. If you are a consumer, it sounds like pure outrage. So your opinion will be determined by which group's values you subscribe to, I guess.

The scam is, they bore you to sleep (practically) and then creep into your wallet while you're sleeping. Now maybe Katie would say..."It's not OUR fault if the customer is asleep at the wheel and saying yes". But most of the folks calling are older, less confrontational, and in all honesty, they are not very good at bargain hunting. Symphonix is taking advantage of the VERY VULNERABLE people who call in, by preying on their vanity (talking about things like sexual performance) and their lack of consumer awareness. I am trying very hard NOT to say that the callers to Symphonix are stupid, but it's the ones who buy a bottle of herbs for 59.95 that are getting ripped off, when the same product is around 8 bucks a bottle in any vitamin catalog.

BUT....HELLO!!!! IT STILL DOESN'T WORK!!!! There is NO scientific evidence to support the idea that these herbs will improve your sex life, or remove acne, or lose weight, or quit smoking. These products may even be harmful or have adverse reactions when taken with other supplements or medications, And the standard line given by Justin, the sales trainer is...."Obviously I'm not a doctor, but I've talked to people in the same situation who are having great results". That canned answer is hammered home in training and he makes trainees write it down. From a legal standpoint, it covers them from being sued for making false claims. All it really does is dodge the questions of safety and effectiveness.

In all fairness to Visiontel, the folks who work there are all really nice, hard working people. They have to be, as they are paid MINIMUM WAGE plus COMMISSION. That means: no sales = no money. That's how they get people to work there and be so deceptive.

And they don't like when people working there make waves. I was fired for showing them this website, which is really quite funny, because LOTS of employees respond to these complaints on here. Yet the managers I showed this web site, claimed they were not aware of it. BUNK!!

Katie defends the company with quite a passion, and I think it's because they make good money there. When I interviewed, they told me some folks make 40 bucks an hour and the average is 25. Whew!!! Think of all the people they must have gotten to agree to something they weren't even listening to, out of boredom. It's a sad statement about America. Sadder still is Vision Labs' business practices.

First of all, you didn't ask any questions for me to answer. You said yourself that the customer knows what is going to happen and they know what they are buying. How is this a scam? People think it is overpriced? Don't buy it. People don't want the autoship? Don't buy it. This is far from a scam. You should look it up in the dicitonary. Scamming involves deceiving the consumer. You said yourself that we don't. I don't get what you are trying to get at because admitting that the consumer knows everything, you completely contradicted yourself.

First of all, you didn't ask any questions for me to answer. You said yourself that the customer knows what is going to happen and they know what they are buying. How is this a scam? People think it is overpriced? Don't buy it. People don't want the autoship? Don't buy it. This is far from a scam. You should look it up in the dicitonary. Scamming involves deceiving the consumer. You said yourself that we don't. I don't get what you are trying to get at because admitting that the consumer knows everything, you completely contradicted yourself.

First of all, you didn't ask any questions for me to answer. You said yourself that the customer knows what is going to happen and they know what they are buying. How is this a scam? People think it is overpriced? Don't buy it. People don't want the autoship? Don't buy it. This is far from a scam. You should look it up in the dicitonary. Scamming involves deceiving the consumer. You said yourself that we don't. I don't get what you are trying to get at because admitting that the consumer knows everything, you completely contradicted yourself.

First of all, you didn't ask any questions for me to answer. You said yourself that the customer knows what is going to happen and they know what they are buying. How is this a scam? People think it is overpriced? Don't buy it. People don't want the autoship? Don't buy it. This is far from a scam. You should look it up in the dicitonary. Scamming involves deceiving the consumer. You said yourself that we don't. I don't get what you are trying to get at because admitting that the consumer knows everything, you completely contradicted yourself.

You missed my point entirely.

I am not defending the forgetful consumer. Nor am I "one of those people you talk to every day." I stay far away from scams like this in the first place, so the opportunity never arises for me to be "one of those people." If you want to lend any credibility to your statements, don't make absurd generalizations about people you've never met.

I'll go so far as to agree with you that if the customer is fully informed of what is going to happen then he has no standing to contest the charges down the road, provided that those charges ACTUALLY reflect what the consumer was told.

However, if you want to rebut what I actually said, rather than just decide what you want me to have said and then rebut that, then read my original rebuttal over again, answer the questions posed, and then justify how this program isn't a scam.

See, the problem is that there is a scam before the customer ever calls you. The system is set up to make sales that otherwise wouldn't be made. It may be, and probably is, entirely legal. That doesn't mean it's not a ripoff. I'm sure you are a good person, Katie, but your letting all this adversity with your clients blind you to who is really ripping people off.

Well after what has literally been weeks of calling for answers, I finally found an employee who was a complete breath of fresh air. She was wonderful and really bent over backwards to help me with my situation. Yesterday I received my complete refund including shipping fees and it was overnighted to me via FedEx.

I will say, that I had to completely bypass the customer service department in order to get the "cusomter service".

To the Visiontel Employees who continue to respond with rebuttals....you obviously did not know the story and before writing your so-called explanation, so don't make assumptions. I didn't need excuses, I needed answers like most of your customers. If you spent half as much time giving quality customer service as you do rebutting claims and making excuses....you may not have such a problem. And if you have to continue heading your stories with "Yet Again" - what does that tell you?

First of all, who is being naive. Do you work at the company Tim? Do you know how things run there Tim? When these people hear about the autoships on the phone, do they have to take the product? NO! These people All know what they are getting and what is going to happen later on if they do or don't do something. If people "forget" or screw up and it costs them money, of course, they will try to blame it on someone else instead of taking the blame. I have learned that most Americans never think that they are wrong. Most of them think that if something bad happens to them, it is someone elses fault. Well Tim, I have something to say to you. You are one of those people who I talk to everyday. If someone told you that when you get your bottle, if you do not cancel, you will get more, you will either say OK or not take the product right? No, you are one of those people who will cause a huge problem about receiving the additional bottles AFTER you forgot to cancel. We do NOT hold a gun to these peoples heads and say TAKE OUR PRODUCT AND GIVE US YOUR MONEY! NO! They call us.... we don't call them. They say I want the bottle and I will cancel or say I want the 6 bottles of procylon for this and this amount. HERE IS MY CREDIT CARD NUMBER! DUH! Getting the hint yet? Don't blame the company for idiocy of the consumers who don't pay attention when we explain the stipulations!

First of all, we didn't change our name. We are still visiontel. We have merged with another company and both of us together are called symphonix. We are still located where we were before and we are not going anywhere. And to this ex-employee, I do NOT make $30 an hour. I am tired of hearing it's a rip off because this company has really cracked down on being honest. Do you know how many times I have had to call back a customer because I worded something a little wrong? If I can't get ahold of the customer, I lose the sale. It is vital that we tell the customer the truth.

Katie...

Here's something that the rest of us figured out when we were about ten years old: if you are the only person that thinks you're right, then you are probably wrong. Read on for further clarification.

Quality products, or even non-quality products that are reasonably priced, do not require deceptive marketing. "Autoship" programs are inherently deceptive. The only conceivable reasons to market a product via free sample-plus-autoship are that your product is worthless or it is grossly over-priced.

The reason companies set up these "clubs" is because their product is not worth what is being charged, and the only way to make money is by ripping people off. If people wanted more of your product, they could actively order more. The internet makes this especially easy. A customer could go to your website, click two links, and BAM! they get more of your snake oil. So what's the convenience of automatically charging consumers for more of your product? Read on and I'll tell you...

The convenience is that your company does not have to further market the product to make more sales. A certain percentage, probably the majority, of consumers who signed up for the free trial either don't realize they signed up for an auto-ship program, forget to cancel, or are just too lazy to cancel but nonetheless don't want anymore of your ridiculous product.

There is a difference between the "price" of a product and the "cost" of a product. "Price" is what you are quoted, and what you expect to pay. In your company's case, the price is nothing for the initial package. The "cost" of a product is what the average consumer will actually pay, which in your case is probably substantially more than the "price." As an all-encompassing rule, if the "cost" of a product grossly exceeds its "price" the consumer is being ripped off. Ask yourself the following questions. If the answer to any of them is yes, then your company is ripping people off.

1) Is your "free trial" conditional upon signing up for an automatic reshipment of product that will be charged for? If you refuse to give customers an opt-out option before they may receive the free trial, then you are ripping people off. Consumers rightly feel that when they see an ad for a free trial that it will be both "free" and a "trial," and not an entrance into a club that requires a monthly purchase and assesses a monthly fee.

2) Is the cancellation procedure made exceedingly difficult (i.e. more than going online, putting in your account number, and clicking "cancel" or performing a similar function over the telephone)? If so, then you are ripping people off. Technology allows for extremely simple methods of commercial interaction, especially in regards to companies that are largely internet based. If your company requires a complex method of cancellation, you are ripping people off.

3) Is your prodcut not of any value, not fairly priced, or something that people might not desire to be automatically charged for every month? This is a high bar. People generally make regular purchases only of products they know and trust. Why would they want to be automatically charged for a product they weren't sure of?

The bottom line is this. Recurrent billing programs, especially those that follow a "free trial" are scams per se. Quality products that are fairly priced are simply not marketed this way. The sole purpose of these programs is to con people into paying for a product that they otherwise would not have purchased. There is no convenience to the consumer, there are only quick gains for a fraudulent company.

You can sit there and type out rebuttals all day about how people agreed to this setup, and whine about how you're sick of defending your fraudulent organization, but the bottom line is that your company rips people off. Plain and simple. There is no defense. You are preying on naivety for unethical personal gain. You are no better than the stereotypical used car salesman. In my opninion, you're much worse. At least the car salesman only sells me one crappy car, and he doesn't try to fool me into thinking it's actually free.

THESE OVERCHARGING PEOPLE HAVE CHANGED THEIR NAME!!! HERE IS THE AD THEY USE TO RECRUIT:

Symphonix, LLC, formerly known as VisionTel, is seeking motivated, ambitious and energetic individuals for Inbound Telesales. We're in the business of offering educational and health products to the public through radio, television and print advertisements. Previous sales experience preferred.

Earn $15 - $30 / hour

Flexible schedules available

Business casual dress

The reason Katie is sick and tired about hearing that this company is a ripoff, is because she makes huge $$$ overcharging people for non- working garbage. If you must buy herbal supplements, go to Vitamin World or any other on-line supplement supplier and get the same thing at 70-80% discount.

I'm sure Katie and her coworkers are all really nice people, but this company makes enough money (by WAY overcharging) to pay them 30 dollars an hour for reading scripts. Read some of my previous postings so you can see how the scripts are designed to deceive and relieve you of your $$$.

Well after speaking to several Visiontel customer service reps, I have now been promised by complete refund. I would receive my complete refund if I shipped the merchandise back to the company and I could expect my credit within three to five business days of the goods being received.

The goods were in fact received (I sent them UPS so that I had a record of the delivery) five business days ago - and still no credit. I called and was told that the credit is still pending but that I had to wait another 3-5 business days because there is a glitch with the system. Needless to say, I think this may go on for awhile. I will keep you updated. VERY FRUSTRATING.

Like I said to previous accounts of so-called ripoffs. We can not send the free bottle of epiclear with out the autoship. We tell you upfront that you are placed in the epiclub, but if you desire not to continue, call our customer support number. It also comes in writing that you are in this club. If we have no record showing that you ordered the product or received a second shipment, we shouldn't have even had to pay the $75. It wasn't "keep quite" money, it was, we are a good business and we think that you are ripping us off, so we will make a deal!