EX-Car salesman is spilling the inside beans. * Dealers hate me and buyers love me. * UPDATE *Auto Advocate saves buyer $11,000

Auto dealers waste a lot of money on sales gimicks that could be used to pay good salespeople to work for their dealerships. Joe Verde training, phone systems with skits, recordings, hiring from training schools,seminairs etc. All of this so called training is a waste of money that auto dealers continue to use. And it is all used to decieve the customer. I think the auto dealers have lost site of who actually feeds them. I have heard the old saying "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" and I believe it is very true. Hell, they even cheat their salespeople by using inflated cost (called packs) that cheat the salesperson out of their commision percentage. It is greed and pure greed on the behalf of the dealerships and owners. These packs have pushed most good auto salesmen out of the business and has created a nightmare for the customer because the salespeople are trying to make enough gross profit over this so called pack to earn a commision. All of this has created a bad atmosphere for the customer and the salespeople. That is probably why these dealers are hiring salepeople that have no experience. They hire people that will do as they say not what they do. Great concept.Hire idiots and cheat them like they do the customers. What happens is that these idiots that are hired are trained to decieve the customer and then they are promoted from within and pretty soon the whole dealership is full of idiots they have no concept about customer service or sales. How would you like to buy the second most expensive item you will ever buy from a bunch of idiots.(as the GM from Florida stated) I left the auto business because I was told by a manager that I was too honest to sell cars.Well I guess I am too honest so I retired. I will tell whomever reads this that I never had a customer that disliked me and I never lied to my customers no matter what. Owners and GM's and managers of these dealership beware. You are on a road to bankruptcy by running these dealerships on greed alone. Get back to the basics and start running honest dealerships that cater to the customer and not the pocketbookof the owners and managers. Drop the packs and hire experienced people to greet your customers and stop this lying and cheating mindset and you won't have to worry about someone writing a book about the way you run your dealerships.

(((ROR redacted)))
sorry, allowing you to give a competitors name would instigate others to just file against their competition, to only come back later to suggest their company your comments on this policy are welcome! CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.

I worked in the auto sales business for 17 years until my age became a road block and my opinions weren't welcome anymore. Auto dealerships are hiring sales people and finance people with out experience all across this nation. My opinion is that GM's like you and managers want to program these salespeople to be dishonest and just tell the customers what management wants them to tell them. In the state I live in it is common practice for the newsalespeople to be taught to lie and decieve the customer to maximize the profit in the deal. I believe that promotions in these auto dealerships are all about who you know and not what you know. When a dealership makes a $5000.00 profit on a customer on the sale of the vehicle and another $1500.00-$2000.00 on the back end (Finance Dept) that's an extra $140.00-$150.00 a month for that customer to pay. Management that over charge a customer like this are deceiving the customer and could care lessabout them. I worked for a dealerin Denver for 10 years as a finance manager and he was a billionaire. Everytime he would see a gross over $3000.00 he would tell our GM that he was cheating the customer and if he continued that practice he would lose all of his customers and would be out of business. We followed the owners advice and built a 60% be back business and became the top Buick Pontiac GMC dealer in our division. Employees that lied to our customers didn't last long in our dealership. We considered then snakes and thieves. Our dealership made a profit every year and all of us made very good livings. The problem with dealerships and salespeople today is that they could care less about buyer retention and salespeople who know how to retain customers. This who you know mindset in business today is ruining the businesses in our country. Look at General Motors. They have promoted inexperienced employees all the way to the topof the company and now they are were close to being bought out by Toyota. What a concept. Promote all of the idiots and buddies from within and ruin your business. I am also writing a book to teach the customer how to buy and negotiate a deal and I believe it could help the auto business and stop the decepton.
(((ROR redacted)))
sorry, allowing you to give a competitors name would instigate others to just file against their competition, to only come back later to suggest their company your comments on this policy are welcome! CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.

Quote from Tom's disjointed, confusing, sophomoric tirade, replete with a plethera of grammar gaffes suited to a grade school drop-out:
"Go ahead i hope a reader comes in a trys to pull that s**t with me ill tell them how retarded you are then ill kick their a*s right out. Whats it matter to me, they need me thay cant buy without me and i wont help them so what now... they will ask your o sell them a car but you have now become the enemy thats needs the money and you get screwed by yourself hahaha oh the irony, oh the irony...."
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It would be perfectly safe for anyone of normal intelligence to buy a car from Tom. His ENTIRE report in general and the above quote in particular would indicate to me he's....umm...err...(to hell with being polite) ...a blithering idiot. Car sales people are frequently referred to as "Lot Sharks". It's clear that Tom is merely a Lot Goldfish. It's difficult to vision Tom getting ahead of any customer on a deal. Particularly in view of the fact that pre-teens aren't car buyers.
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The old clich of "Did you just get off the turnup truck?" comes to mind as I read Tom's missive.

You know the minimum a car salesman can make in most cases is $100. So lets say that a book is published and people become super negotiators. The car industry says if your selling 25 cars a month your doing well. If i sell 25 cars to your readers and make 100 each then i get what 2500 dollars and that doesnt pay my rent let alone my bills. The only way to make money as a car salesman is get people the payment they want. If we can get them the payment they want what else matters??? they have WHAT THEY WANT! All your going to do is make salesmen rich and when your done with cars your going to go to real estate and then attorneys and then boat salesmen. Look why do yuou have a holy war against the salesmen? We are just out there to get paid for a service. We give advice and tell people what range they will be in payment wise thats it. By the way if you keep going to way you do i hope everyone in america reads your book and goes to a dealership armed to the teeth and they try to pull that s**t you told them i really hope it happens then we can ask they to get the hell off the lot and go somewhere else. Then they go somwhere else and they say same thing, and again, and again... until the person realizes what a scam you are and pays full sticker that would be great. You know if a person gives me a hard time i just drop them and let they go ahead and try to buy the car themselves without me. They dont get very far, so they realize oh i need you and i say tell ya what... throw away they garbage book and lets do business all that book is gonna do id give you a headache and i wont sell the car to a jackass anyway. Go ahead i hope a reader comes in a trys to pull that s**t with me ill tell them how retarded you are then ill kick their a*s right out. Whats it matter to me, they need me thay cant buy without me and i wont help them so what now... they will ask your o sell them a car but you have now become the enemy thats needs the money and you get screwed by yourself hahaha oh the irony, oh the irony....

David you have forgotten a few things that car buyers are NOT told.

First you say that the car buyer should be BE HONEST WITH THE SALESPERSON. What's up with that? Do you think for one-second that the dealer's sales staff are going to be HONEST with the car buyer? I think not.

You say you sold cars, ever remember getting the car buyer to agree to everything, then the buyer goes into the "BOX" and the "F&I Clown" known as a F&I manager tells the buyer, "Hey Mr. Car buyer if you do not get the extended warranty I might not be able to get you financed"

Maybe you made 4 pound car deal, car buyer gets in the "BOX" and your loved "F&I Clown" moves some of the juice you made to the back so he or she can sell the car buyer a bunch of extra over priced crap.

Maybe your "F&I Clown" wanted the bank to think that they buyer was in a better financial situation then they were so they fax a "dealer's Version" of the Buyer's credit application to the bank.

Want proof that this crap goes on? Go to the below URL and you tell me if the dealership was HONEST with the car buyer!

Here is Michelle's Rip Off Report.
http://www.ripoffreport.com/view.asp?id=52158

You tell me if Michelle was treated in an HONEST WAY! Tell me if the car dealer was HONEST with the bank. I think NOT!

Next, you say you at one time was a car salesman. If that is true I want you to tell our readers what product or service the following web sites sell to car dealers.

Now we know that no form of media would ever do a story on any of these topics because most all money that goes to newspapers, radio and TV is from your good old HONEST CAR DEALERS.

Here my fellow American is the list. Do your homework before you post your thoughts!

www.tewart.com
www.joeverde.com

www.biggross.com

www.davidlewis.com
www.hibeamauto.com
www.dealerdoctor.com
www.grantcardone.com
www.stukertraining.com
www.paulcummings.com
www.carsalestraining.net
www.appliedconcepts.net
www.autosalestraining.com
www.jobtraining4money.com
www.americanautoseminars.com
www.jeffsacksandassociates.com
www.wwcsonline.com/company.htm
www.carsalestraining.co.uk/what.html
www.progressive-dynamics.com/sales/

www.fandiprofit.com/increasedprofits.html

www.cyberdealertoday.com/training_1.htm
www.autoconsultants-training.com/sales.html
www.nationalautotraining.com/training/home.html
www.autosalestraining.com/Our_Success/index.html

Don't get me wrong. I am not bashing these web sites. I just want you to post your thoughts. Our readers would love to read how a car salesman thinks.

I am an electrical engineering student at the University of Florida (C.O. 2005) and sold cars from the age of 18 to 21. I have worked in two dealerships and have sold 5 lines of cars. I primarily sold new and occasionally used.

This in mind I agree with many of the people who are posting who say that the dealership will try to mislead the customer; but only on the surface...allow me to explain.

My easiest sales were those to other salespeople, whether it be advertising, real estate or financial products. These men and women (if they were experienced salespeople) would tell me upfront what type of vehicle they wanted and how much they wanted to pay. We would drive several different vehicles and when all was said and done they would tell me if they liked the vehicle or not. If not I would thank them for their time and they would leave. If they did like the vehicle and mine was the vehicle of choice we would begin negotiations. They were direct in what they wanted and we did our best to get there. When we did, the rest was easy...when we didn't the customer would leave with no hard feelings on either side. Like I said previously, there was never any deception involved with experienced salespeople; and that flowed both ways.

Average consumers are different. That's okay of course...if the world were full of salespeople we'd never be able to leave the grocery store would we? Average consumers are told by all their friends that the dealer is going to rip them off, and so they become scared. Then they read thing like "How to not get scammed by the evil devil car salesman who will sell your children to a cult after your credit is destroyed because you can't afford your car and refused the extended warranty and ground effects" and they think they've got it licked. Unfortunately, the car salespeople have read all these to. I think the worst thing is many of these types of books tell the customer to lie to the salesperson. Here's something I saw once...
A customer took the advice of that book and
insisted they had no trade. When the
numbers were worked out the customer pulled a fast one and said "how much for my trade" the sale was temporarily halted until the vehicle could be appraised. It's wholesale value was less than $1,000. The customer was sure it was worth at lest $4,000. Since a car is worth what its worth the gentleman thought we were trying to scam him and the deal fell through.

It leads me to my final topic. Illusions. Sales in an illusion...i think it always will be. Afterall, soda's are a multi billion dollar a year industruy. And soda is nothing more than sugar flavored water. We buy it because we fall for the illusion that it will quench our thirst, when soda indeed just makes us thirstier. When I sold electronics, we ran out of 19 inch televisions except for 1 particular model (we even ran out off all the floor models). We put a sale tag on the model we had in stock and then filled the shelves all with that one particular model of television but put different price points on them. Everybody picked the cheapest one and business continued until we got more inventory two days later. If we hadn't done this and would have just left 1 tv on the shelf surrounded by blank space, people would have come in and said, "this the only one you got?" We would have said "yes" and then they would have left.

It's for this reason that a car salesperson deals with both the new car and the trade at the same time. So they can tell you what you need to hear. So you don't think their being crooked.

So what's the solution? Simple...start out by being truthful with yourself. How much can you afford for the entire vehicle including tax and insurance and interest. Negotiate that not payments...remember what I said about illusions, a dealer can go 72 months now; my grandfather told me dealers used to only go for 24 months at one time. Decide what class of car you want and then go to a local dealer to drive one. BE HONEST WITH THE SALESPERSON. Tell them you want to drive X and will only enter negotiations once you find a car you like. After the drive tell the salesperson if you liked to car or not. If not can he recommend something else to you. If so, he will ask to "work up some numbers." You may be curious, but keep in mind you're taking up his or her time and he or she doesn't work for free. Say 'no thank you' and leave. I've seen it done by professionals many times and it really is that easy.

When you negotiate be professional. Use the internet as a tool and use the car buying services to see which dealer in your area will sell you the car you want for cheapest. Go back to the salesman who drove the car with you and give him a chance to beat the best deal you have...afterall he spent time with you, give him a chance to earn your business. Please don't show him your best deal. It's not ethical, and it is deceitful to the dealer you received that quote from; but let the salesperson try because since he spent time with you he has dibs.

In closing, be honest and respectful; you reap what you sow, and it will be a more pleasureable experience for yourself and the salesperson. Also, it will demonstrate maturity, honesty, and negotiating skills to your children.

Good Luck everyone.
Go Gators!

I am the general manager of a dealership in New York. I love the car business and have been doing it for several years. I find the editor of this web site sporting the familiar "I couldn't make it in the auto industry so now I have a chip on my shoulder" attitude. I see it all of the time.

It sure does stink when you get a bad deal. But the only person you have to blame is yourself, no one held a gun to your head and made you sign a contract. If you are that oblivious or uneducated in making the second largest purchase in your lifetime, or it's that hard to say no to a salesman, maybe you should seek a psychiatrist not a website.

Yes I know being the GM makes me the worst kind of all and my six figure income twice over should be illegal. But what side of the fence would you rather be on?

No, I don't mean I will arrive at the car dealership wielding guns and knives, although from reading some of these reports, that might not be a bad idea!

I will be "dangerous" to you, Mr. or Ms. Car Salesman, because I will be "armed" with knowledge! From my own experience and from reading this site! Look out! I may purchase Stick's book (keep us informed on that), so I will be even more aware! I will visit the Great Thorn's links. I will be ready for YOU, Car Salesman!

When you tell me I must let you copy my driver's license before I can test drive, I will refuse. I will allow you to look at it long enough to see that I AM licensed to drive and that is it! I will cover my DL# though. Then, you can let me test drive without you, or you can pile your happy a*s in the vehicle with me and go on the test drive. Be prepared for an exciting ride! Because, Car Salesman, if I allow you to copy my license, your shirttail will not touch your a*s before you are running an UNAUTHORIZED credit check on me. By the time I return from my little test drive, you will know whether or not I am "worthy" of your time and effort. (Personal experience taught me this one!)

Then, if I choose to purchase an extended warranty on the vehicle, I will demand all paperwork and verify that the warranty I purchased is in place before I leave your establishment. (If I purchase a high-end warranty I do not plan to find out later that you signed me up for the "economy" warranty that really covers nothing! WHERE did those extra dollars go, huh? Do I hear "bonus" for you, Car Salesman?) You can make me pots of coffee while I wait; I'll bring a book and maybe even my lunch. Everything gets verified before I and the vehicle leave the lot! God knows, I have spent plenty of time waiting on you in the past; you can wait on ME now!

And you will have absolutely nothing further to do after you fill out my warranty papers except make coffee and watch me wait. Because, to complete your cycle of misery, I will have arrived "armed" with pre-arranged financing from my local bank! So if there is another bonus for you when you sign me up with XYZ Financing, you can kiss it good-bye as well! I choose my own financing arrangements; I will no longer be subject to your whims.

You have pulled your last dirty trick on me, Car Salesman, so treat me well and we might do business. If you mess up, I will walk because I CAN! YOU need ME way more than I need YOU, Car Salesman; a fact you seem to have forgotten. Thank heaven for Stick and the Great Thorn. Maybe things will get to the point that I can trust a car salesman again, but in the meantime, LOOK OUT! I am now an aware consumer and I am on to you.

If we do manage to complete a deal, I will return home and write a check to the Rip-Off Report for value received. Giving voluntarily is MY choice; I vastly prefer it to being bent over by you!

This site has kept me from making some mistakes, let me decide when it is time to make some changes, given me a few hundred good laughs, and saved me at least a MILLION DOLLARS worth of headache! I intend to show my appreciation in a tangible way from time to time; this site ROCKS! Great work, guys!

Yes, it is VERY TRUE that we here at RipOffReport.Com love to help victims and consumers. Living in a small town of less then 8,000 provides me with less distractions so I can become a better advocate for you.

It is my calling here at ripoffreport.com to bring those who are deceptive in the auto industry to their KNEES. Watch out if you are a deceptive car dealer or someone in the credit industry. I may one day be the "The Great Thorn" in your side..

I love every minute I spend right here on the net doing what is my calling. If you are a consumer or a victim of car dealer deception Please post your VERY OWN Rip Off Report. You just might like what I post on your Rip Off Report. For I am only here to try to help you.

If you are a dirty "LOT SHARK" or a "F&I Clown and you hate what we do, Get ready for us to go even deeper. Because we now have a way.

To all who love what we stand for, I would like you to see the list of web sites that I have compiled. Please Ask yourself what product or service to you think they all sell to car dealers.

Here is the list, Go to them ALL, OK?

www.probac.com
www.nationalautotraining.com
www.appliedconcepts.net
www.grantcardone.com
www.davidlewis.com
www.jeffsacksandassociates.com
www.stukertraining.com
www.paulcummings.com
www.tewart.com
www.joeverde.com

www.biggross.com

www.nationalautotraining.com
www.fandiprofit.com
www.carsalestraining.co.uk/preview.html
www.autoscreeningtraining.com
www.autosalestraining.com
www.wwcsonline.com

I soon shall add more to this list.

Being "The Great Thorn" gives me GREAT PLEASURE!

Good Day!

Jason you seem outraged about this the existence of this site. I wish I knew about this site on Oct 21, 2001. I notice car dealers want their victims to shut and fade away after they get bent over. Since it takes so much energy to find help and litigation is too expensive for the average consumer to afford. It is false to say a customer intends to buy a car at that very minute you see them. Maybe they are comparing prices? IT IS A GOOD WAY TO KEEP FROM BEING BEING RIPPED OFF! I'll clarify being ripped off is. Can you say $5210.20 for a 4x2 2001 Montero Sport a rip off. Read about my experience about City Mitsubishi. I have no problem with car salesmen making a living as long it does not involve deceptive and unfair practices. The auto industry has earned its bad reputation due to their business practices and coverups of defective vehicles that have killed and maimed countless victims. Car sales and finance lack accountability like Enron did. I'm curious do you approve of the following tactics?

1. Telling a customer a car they are looking for is here on the lot when the dealership does not have that model they look for.

2. Requesting keys to the customer's car for an apraisal and refusing to give them back upon demand when the person decided not to buy.

3. Luring a customers into the F&I office to detain them, using salemen to block the exit, alowing F&I manager to wear them down for hours.

4. Refusing to show the contract before a down payment.

5. Grabbing a consumer's credit card and charging $2500.00 without consent and refusing to refund amount upon demand.

6. Bait and switch.

7. After the involuntary purchase treat the customer like trash when they show up for car service.

8. Refusal to give customer copy of credit application.

I been to many dealerships and they are there to take the entire consumer's paycheck. In the future I will have a hidden tape recorder and have financing BEFORE going to a dealership. As for a dealership detaining me again.....If I am prevented from leaving a dealership against my will, I will have the means to convince them I'm not worth messing with. As for a relationship with a carsaleman, I know they are not there to be my friend. They want me to be nice and comfortable leading to complacancy until it is too late. After the purchase the customer service is over.

As for Stick Bogart great job! I wish knew about this site before looking at cars. Could you review my reports on Brunswick Ford and City Mitsubishi. There is a big difference in you selling your book. I would know what I would be buying and you would not try to sell me a fidelity warrantee on it. I noticed that dealerships hate being exposed. It is interesting how people with no ethics see themselves as being decent. I have followed the ripoffreport since my experience and majority of the reports here are on target. IT WAS OBVIOUS THAT THE CAR DEALERS THAT RAPED ME DID NOT THINK TWICE ABOUT RAPING MY FINANCES, MAKING IT HARDER FOR ME TO PUT FOOD ON MY FAMILIES TABLE. As for this site being agitators, dishonest car salesmen are one of the reasons this site does so well.

I'll have you know Mr.Bogart I think you're just as "bad" as a car salesman is. I happen to be in sales. We can only make a sale on what people ask to buy. I've made an honest living from it without lying, cheating or "stealing" from our valued customers. You see, when I sell a car I look forward to building a relationship with that customer so they'll return. Yes, I make money off car sales. That person wouldn't be there unless they wanted to buy a car and that's what keeps food on my family's table. As for you, You wish to "sell" this information to people about how bad we are and how you can help them, How about posting it on the webb for FREE if you really wanted to help. Why not? Oh I see, you have a living to make and family to feed as well...

This email is a rebuttal to RipOff #4471.

It was sent by elector at elector@my-deja.com.



........................

EX-Car salesman is spilling the inside beans. * Dealers hate me and buyers love me. (#4471)

.......................

Stick Bogart (Auto Dealers)

2/16/01 (Last Modified: 2/16/01)

.......................

They filed the following rebuttal to the above Rip-off Report:



Their email: elector@my-deja.com

Their name: elector

Their phone number: 518-474-2121

Their relationship to the company: Advocate



Rebuttal:

I have seen your rants so many times that I believe you cannot be

objective.



I think this this site is a scam since on another post I gave real addresses and contacts and they were never published. it would seem that this site and you are nothing but agitators and that your posts are highly questionable.



Stick Bogart, give me a break you and I both know you only trying to promote a book to bilk people since most of what you claim is false.



Elector



::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

EDITORS NOTE: to the above REBUTTAL:



If Mr. Bogart is trying to promote a book, so what? We here at badbusinessbureau.com have been trying to figure out how we can realize some sort of income from all our efforts. Everyone including myself, the publisher donates their time. My many years of experience has helped many. For free.





Mr. Stick Bogart on the other hand would love to help and consult with consumers all day, using his expertise, but he can only help those who want to make sure they are not a victim when buying a car. Why does anyone else write a book on their knowledge and experiences? ... to hopefully make money. After all, money is what makes the Internet World go round!



Stick Bogart has very valuable information. Why is it that he has been sot out by the news media nationwide? They call Stick Bogart. They have checked out Stick Bogarts claims. He is legit and his concept works. He has been in the Chicago Trib, The, AZ Republic, The New York Times, The Washington PA Observer, The Paradise Valley Independent and the New York Time Syndicate. I personally know for a fact that he has also been on TV networks all over the united states, repeatedly. I have reviewed all of the videos that he has in his video library.



I have also seen in his office many testimonials that are framed and hanging on his walls of happy clients with his inside information, saving them all thousands of dollars, as much as $12,000 on one purchase alone, that's not including the savings on the loan. Many of his car buyers went to the car dealer first, alone, to see what the vehicle would cost and the interest rate the dealer was saying they would have to pay. Too bad there is not a Stick Bogart in every city.



From the tone of your e-mail you sound like you are a car sales person or the wife of one who is worried about your weekly allowance in the future if Stick Bogart is successful in helping car buyers.



You also questioned the ledigimacy of the Rip-off Reports? You stated above, "you are nothing but agitators and that your posts are highly questionable" ...Well, I have certainly been called worse and I admit to it all! As for the Rip-off Reports, of course there are some that are questionable 99% of all the Rip-off Reports have the authors true identity in our files.

Consumers reading these Rip-off Reports make their own educated decision as to the validity of the claims. This information arms the consumer with the knowledge before dealing with this company or individual, hopefully avoiding them becoming a victim of a Rip-off. Read the Rip-off Reports on the BBB Better Business Bureau. At badbusinessbureau.com we are reporting ALL CLAIMS of BAD BUSINESS. That business is given equal time to defend themselves.



I sent your REBUTTAL to Stick Bogart for a response:



::::::::::::::

Auto Consumer Advocate Stick's Bogarts thoughts on the unhappy Elector



Miss or Mr. Elector My name is Stick Bogart and I can tell you that I can back up EVERYTHING I say. Yes, at one time I did sell cars for a living. I found so much deception and I was not willing to be apart of it. It seems to me that you are a very unhappy person to give me a bunch of crap for trying to do the right thing for consumers.



You think I cannot be objective? Your the one that cannot be objective. I dare you to call me at 602-867-8725. and let's get it all out in the open. Tell me what you do for a living. Are you a car dealer's employee? Maybe you are a newspaper reporter that can't keep people like me quiet to keep your car dealers happy? Have I stopped you from victimizing a consumer?



I say let's rock and roll and get EVERYTHING OUT IN THE OPEN. If I am not doing the right thing, why is the big media airing what I have to say ?? Do not judge me until you have seen what I do for car buyers. You must be on the car dealer's side of the fence. Do they pay you in some way?



By the way Elector, Not one thing I say is FALSE !!!!! so get your facts cleared up before you try to bash me.

And to anybody that wants my help buying a car, contact me.



Stick Bogart

Auto Buyers Consumer Advocate



StickBogart@badbusinessbureau.com