Les Schwab ripoff studded snow tire policy *REBUTTAL ..YOU ARE AN IDIOT

When your title is 'Common Sence' and you cannot spell 'sense' right... It kind of makes anything else typed after it suspect. That said.... I've only ever used winter tread on any front wheel drive vehicle we've owned. NOT studded, but winter tread. All the same, I've never had a problem of fish-tailing or loose back ends. Now, I don't run around with bald rear tires, but they are all-seasons.

My point is...if you put studded tires onjust the front of a front-wheel drive car, and you don't drive like an idiot, you should be fine. You can put bulldozer tracks on a car, but if you drive like a freak in bad weather, you will be in the ditch regardless.

Give me all of the studies and physics lessons you want... if take it easy on bad roads, it tends to fix most problems. The testoserone junkies in the jacked up jeeps flipped over along the side of the road in a sleet storm... yea.. four studded monster tires don't work on icy curves at 65mph, nor do they work when your jeep is on its roof. My wife's 2WD Cobalt with a pair of non-studded winter tires on front just passed your stranded self doing 40mph on the same curve, and wont need to wait on a tow truck or worse, an ambulence.

Lived in NH, VT Maine all my life and no one...thats no one... I know that has front wheel drive puts studs on the back!!!!
I live on a mountain and use that parking brake to control my decent, and go down the interstate just fine. The biggest thing is to brake multiple times to test the conditions and drive accordingly...I drive by people with 4x4 and SUV's all the time in the ditch because they think their invincible.

Check this out:
An Act To Allow the Use of Only 2 Studded
Tires on Front-wheel-drive Vehicles
Be it enacted by the People of the State of Maine as follows:
Sec. 1. 29-A MRSA 1919, sub-2-A  is enacted to read:
2-A.  Front-wheel-drive vehicles.   A person may operate a front-wheel-drive vehicle with
tires having metal studs protruding from the tire treads on the front wheels only.
Sec. 2. Rules amended. The Department of Public Safety, Bureau of State Police shall amend
by rule the Maine Motor Vehicle Inspection Manual to reflect that front-wheel-drive vehicles may have
studded tires on the front wheels only. Rules adopted pursuant to this section are routine technical rules
as defined in the Maine Revised Statutes, Title 5, chapter 375, subchapter 2-A.
SUMMARY
This bill allows a front-wheel-drive vehicle to have studded snow tires on its front wheels only.

I was annoyed by the so called rip off report for Les Schwab tire. If you use the tire unsafely it is not their fault that they don't work on your car. The very thing complained of here is what makes it unsafe! You put the tires on unsafely, YOU get to pay for it. This is an unreasonable complaint and costs the rest of us $ because while the services are free, the work and tire sales pay for it. Frankly, you guys NOT buying from L.S. makes costs lower for the rest of us. Please grow up. And stay off the roads if you're going to do stuff like that. You can cause a fatal wreck like that. That's why they don't put them on that way!

Les Schwab IS NOT BGGER THAN BRIDGESTONE. NOT BY A LONGSHOT !  Production facilities belonging to the Bridgestone Group number 141 in twenty-four countries, as of the end of 2005.

Sir, Really?

I understand your frustration (as an ex-employee of Les Schwab) as a customer.  However, the Les Schwab policy pertaining to studded Snow Tires on all four wheels of a Front Wheel Drive (FWD) vehicle, is not only for your protection but theirs as well.  As the last rebuttal stated, "Les Schwab was sued for a large sum of money by a family in tragedy due to an automobile accident." It was proven avoidable if all four wheels had been properly installed with four (4) studded tires. 

At this time, Les Schwab, being the upstanding business and family man he had always been, implemented a policy that states, "If a vehicle is a FWD vehicle, all four wheels must be installed with (4) studded snow tires for your protection. If the vehicle is in an unsafe condition upon arrival; then a Les Schwab employee can be terminated for working on it, unless he or she intends on fixing the unsafe condition."  This unsafe condition is evaluated and brought to the customers attention with a complete plan to solve the problem. 

In your situation, it was determined by a qualified employee that your vehicle was most certainly in an unsafe condition!  This is not only excellent advice from Les Schwab, it is supported extensively by vehicle safety experts! Crash Test Dummies are our friends!

Let's get to the root of your frustration; I believe you knew Les Schwab's policy and tried to circumvent the policy by installing your tires at home!  You bought tires from a company that stands behind their product 100% and would have changed out your normal tires (AND BAG THEM), meanwhile, install your snow tires to all four wheels with a proper balance for the life of the tires at no additional charge.  Then come Spring, reinstall your normal tires. 

You are under the impression that a Les Schwab employee was concerned with selling two tires, when he or she was more concerned with your safety and his or her job.  The company that allowed you drive off the premise with an unsafe vehicle is fortunately (for them) that wanted your money and had no regard for you, your family, or your safety! 

Think about it....

Had you left the last tire shop, knowing full-well that Les Schwab attempted to educate you in Winter Safety, and you or one of your family members was unfortunately involved in an accident; I guarantee you would have sued the last company for letting you drive off in an unsafe vehicle!  If you attest otherwise, then you are not only ignorant, but a d*mned liar! 

It is people like you as to why we have warnings in, on, and around everything! For example, "DO NOT EAT" the dry packet in electronics, don't feed the Lions, etc.  You are the one he was talking about when he said, "Oh look! A VCR and a Pack of Gum!!!" (Jeff Foxworthy, 1993) 

Dir Sir,

I understand your frustration (as an ex-employee of Les Schwab) as a customer.  However, the Les Schwab policy pertaining to studded Snow Tires on all four wheels of a Front Wheel Drive (FWD) vehicle, is not only for your protection but theirs as well.  As the last rebuttal stated, "Les Schwab was sued for a large sum of money by a family in tragedy due to an automobile accident." It was proven avoidable if all four wheels had been properly installed with four (4) studded tires. 

At this time, Les Schwab, being the upstanding business and family man he had always been, implemented a policy that states, "If a vehicle is a FWD vehicle, all four wheels must be installed with (4) studded snow tires for your protection. If the vehicle is in an unsafe condition upon arrival; then a Les Schwab employee can be terminated for working on it, unless he or she intends on fixing the unsafe condition."  This unsafe condition is evaluated and brought to the customers attention with a complete plan to solve the problem. 

In your situation, it was determined by a qualified employee that your vehicle was most certainly in an unsafe condition!  This is not only excellent advice from Les Schwab, it is supported extensively by vehicle saftey experts! Crash Test Dummies are our friends!

Let's get to the root of your frustration; I believe you knew Les Schwab's policy and tried to circumvent the policy by installing your tires at home!  You bought tires from a company that stands behind their product 100% and would have changed out your normal tires (AND BAG THEM), meanwhile, install your snow tires to all four wheels with a proper balance for the life of the tires at no addtional charge.  Then come Spring, reinstall your normal tires. 

You are under the impression that a Les Schwab employee was concerned with selling two tires, when he or she was more concerned with your safety and his or her job.  The company that allowed you drive off the premise with an unsafe vehicle is fortunately (for them) that wanted your money and had no regard for you, your family, or your safety!  

Think about it....

Had you left the last tire shop, knowing full-well that Les Schwab attempted to educate you in Winter Safety, and you or one of your family members was unfortunately involved in an accident; I guarantee you would have sued the last company for letting you drive off in an unsafe vehicle!  If you attest otherwise, then you are not only ignorant, but a d*mned liar! 

It is people like you as to why we have warnings in, on, and around everything! For example, "DO NOT EAT" the dry packet in electronics, don't feed the Lions, etc.  You are the one he was talking about when he said, "Oh look! A VCR and a Pack of Chicklets!!!" (Jeff Foxworthy, 1993) 

It is not a law and that's correct, last I checked no one was forcing anyone to buy anything they didn't want to. If you don't want to buy 4 tires then don't. Pretty simple if you ask me. But is it safer. Yes. Does a business have the right to make its own rules to provide a safer way to do business, I am pretty sure they do. Do you want to see a report.... You more then likely won't get to. Why would a company trying to make the best service for the public worry if one person got mad about something they have went over and over in court about? Anyways I hope you all can understand some companies truly are looking out for you and Les Schwab is one of them, even if it costs you a little more to be safe.....I think they are right. If not I am sure a shady business would take Ur money how ever they can get it, they would be happy to sell you just two studded tires.

what most of you are missing is THERE IS NO STATE LAW!!! requiring a front wheel drive car to have 4 studded tires installed!!!! End of point!! take it to court and you will lose!

what is going on here is the tire companies pushing for a 4 tire sale! that is the fact till the state or DOT (department of transportation) makes it a law then they can not force you to BUY or INSTALL 4 studded tires they also have no proof that with a front wheel drive car 4 studded tires make it safer!! point is they would have that report posted on there walls and windows!!! but they can not do that as they have no PROOF!!!!

Now it would be nice too have 4 studded tires on all cars and trucks but in todays market? who can afford that?
Now as a business dealing public!! till matters are made the law by state or federal then the customer is always right!! now as a business that is why they have salesmen to talk you into what THEY WANT to SELL you not what you want

17 years dealing with les schwab 2 cars and a truck stop going there in 1999 5 kids all with there own cars and truck
and not 1 tire bought from les schwab since 1999 due to this same issue

            

The issue of putting only two studded tires on a FWD vehicle vs a RWD vehicle is not a matter of which are the drive wheels on the vehicle but where the studded tires are placed on the vehicle. Having studded tires only on the front wheels of a car produced an extremely dangerous situation when your vehicle is slowing down. The drag on the studded wheels that are holding traction with the road surface is greater than that of the other wheels which are sliding. Therefore the axle with the studded tires slows down faster than the other axle. If the studded tires are on the front axle this imbalanced slowing of the vehicle can cause it to go into a spin as the rear axle tries to travel faster than the front.

The REASON that you should not put studded tires only on the front is that OVERSTEER (the rear of the car becoming 'loose') is much harder to control than UNDERSTEER (the front 'plowing'). This is the reason that 100% of all cars are DESIGNED with built in understeer. It is why your brakes are biased to the front so the the rear brakes will lock AFTER the fronts (ever wonder why DISC brakes are on front and DRUMS in back?}. While you expect a delaer to accept responsibility for YOUR ignorance is astounding. In case of the worst happening, who do you think the lawyers will go after...the owner of a vehicle with minimal assets or the billin dollar co. that last worked on it? USE YOUR HEAD. Finally, the REASON no co. will release investigative info is because they do not wish to supply a lawyer with lawsuit ammunition. In a trial, a good lawyer can make a statistic report say anything he wants it to!

The REASON that you should not put studded tires only on the front is that OVERSTEER (the rear of the car becoming 'loose') is much harder to control than UNDERSTEER (the front 'plowing'). This is the reason that 100% of all cars are DESIGNED with built in understeer. It is why your brakes are biased to the front so the the rear brakes will lock AFTER the fronts (ever wonder why DISC brakes are on front and DRUMS in back?}. While you expect a delaer to accept responsibility for YOUR ignorance is astounding. In case of the worst happening, who do you think the lawyers will go after...the owner of a vehicle with minimal assets or the billin dollar co. that last worked on it? USE YOUR HEAD. Finally, the REASON no co. will release investigative info is because they do not wish to supply a lawyer with lawsuit ammunition. In a trial, a good lawyer can make a statistic report say anything he wants it to!

The REASON that you should not put studded tires only on the front is that OVERSTEER (the rear of the car becoming 'loose') is much harder to control than UNDERSTEER (the front 'plowing'). This is the reason that 100% of all cars are DESIGNED with built in understeer. It is why your brakes are biased to the front so the the rear brakes will lock AFTER the fronts (ever wonder why DISC brakes are on front and DRUMS in back?}. While you expect a delaer to accept responsibility for YOUR ignorance is astounding. In case of the worst happening, who do you think the lawyers will go after...the owner of a vehicle with minimal assets or the billin dollar co. that last worked on it? USE YOUR HEAD. Finally, the REASON no co. will release investigative info is because they do not wish to supply a lawyer with lawsuit ammunition. In a trial, a good lawyer can make a statistic report say anything he wants it to!

The REASON that you should not put studded tires only on the front is that OVERSTEER (the rear of the car becoming 'loose') is much harder to control than UNDERSTEER (the front 'plowing'). This is the reason that 100% of all cars are DESIGNED with built in understeer. It is why your brakes are biased to the front so the the rear brakes will lock AFTER the fronts (ever wonder why DISC brakes are on front and DRUMS in back?}. While you expect a delaer to accept responsibility for YOUR ignorance is astounding. In case of the worst happening, who do you think the lawyers will go after...the owner of a vehicle with minimal assets or the billin dollar co. that last worked on it? USE YOUR HEAD. Finally, the REASON no co. will release investigative info is because they do not wish to supply a lawyer with lawsuit ammunition. In a trial, a good lawyer can make a statistic report say anything he wants it to!

I suggest to anyone considering only two studded tires to try it. Put them on your car and test your performance parameters in a safe place like a big parking lot. Front drive, rear drive, 4x4, all-wheel drive etc...

The adverse handling will be worse than no studs. Stopping and steering are much more important than the ability to get moving. To have balanced steering and stopping any vehicle must have adequate traction at every contact point.

Don't be stupid in your pursuit of thrift.

Doug Gundlach

Can you truly be arguing that 4 contact points ISN'T safer than two?

But beyond that, Schwab lost, in a lawsuit. The company, worth over a billion dollars, tried and failed to convince a jury of average people that it should NOT be held liable for the choices it's customers were making in relation to the two, or four debate.

If you think YOU present a good arguement AGAINST 4 tires, think what the Companies arguements looked like, with a billion dollars to back them. And yet, they lost. YOU, the avergae person, decided that THEY WERE LIABLE if you crashed and died. It's that simple.

Anyway, do business elswhere. Plenty of outfits have nothing to loose and will surely mount 1, 2, 3, or 4 snow tires, as you desire. Schwab has a lot to protect. It could buy Firestone, Goodyear, AND Sears US divisions two or three times over. Don't believe me? The ENTIRE Sears outfit just sold to KMart, you know, the outfit that only last year pulled out of bankruptsy. And Firestone, the company that's gone belly up twice in twenty years.

Why is the tire industry refusing to provide their studies on studded tires? Until the tire industry does, it clearly appears to be a gouging. I would rather be a called a moron than be an a*****e following blindly.

The act of mounting two studs on two wheels, vs. mounting 4 studs on 4 wheels, isn't the point.

The act of putting, physically removing and then reinstalling, two wheels mounted with studded tires, and only two, IS the point.

I'm utterly confused as to how you don't understand this. You knew they wouldn't take off the studded tires to begin with, as they wouldn't be able to put them back on again. You knew this as evidenced by the fact that you originally put them on youself! Why would you then drive to the store and ask them to do the very same thing?

THEY CAN'T INSTALL STUDDED TIRES ON ONLY THE FRONT AXLE! Actually, they will, and can, remove them. But they CAN'T put them back on.

This whole debate seems goofy. The Manager at that store didn't make the policy anyway, nor any employee you've ever spoken to. They're all doing what they've been told. And what they've been told is that the Company no longer wants to assume the financial liabilities of installing only two front axle studded tires. The accident that happened here in my home town of Newberg, Oregon, in the mid 90's cost Les Schwab a few million dollars in legal settlements, and a lot more in bad press. Not to mention the folks who died, of course. The Jury agreed that to mount ONLY two front snow tires on the front axle of the mini-van these folks were driving was dangerous, and something that a proffesional tire company should have known better than to do. Therefor, they agreed that Schwab held financial responsibility in the deaths of this family.

And there are people out there, to this day, that think Scwab came up with this policy all on their own to make money? Would you like the name of the jurists who sealed this fate for every Les Schwab customer? I can probably find them easily enough in the files of the local paper, The Newberg Graphic.

Sure, they could choose to continue with the policy the way it was, basically no policy. But that would be a slap in the face to these jurists who found Schwab liable in the deaths of this family for a LACK of such policy.

So you know what? Write your complaint letters to the relatives of the dead family here in Newberg, not Schwab. I doubt you'll get any sympathy though.

We have been a part of the Les Schwab company for over 8 years. I can say with 100% confindence that the Les Schwab company is sincere in all safety and sales policies. They are not out to "trap" you into having to buy more tires or pay for additional services. Those are tactics practiced by unsuccessful companies in a struggle to keep up. Les Schwab does not have the need or tolerance for such tactics. It is, no doubt, safer to have studs on all 4 tires, especially on a FWD vehicle. It seems most people are just upset about not being able to make that choice for themselves. Unfortunately, too many ignorant people are fighting to make ALL of their own decisions, but aren't willing to accept responsibility for ANY of them. Les Schwab simply cannot afford to provide anything less than the absolute safest products and methods of usage possible. The same people angry about the having to have 4 studded tires are the ones who would be suing if Les Schwab "let" them put only 2 on, and something went wrong. If you want to blame someone for the "unfair" safety policies, blame all of the irresponsible, sue-happy people in this country. Les Schwab is a morally respectable company and you will do well to heed their advice and policies. They truly care!

I am an employee of Les Schwab, but first I was a customer of Les Schwab. The whole thing about 2 studded tires on the front of a car is because the studs will grip and then the rear end of your car could go out of control, causing an accident. It is safer to have all 4 tires the same for handling, safety and control. I acutally have a rear wheel drive car and put studs on all 4 wheels in the winter months so I have the maximum traction and the best safety. When I started working for this company it was allowed to put studded tires on just the front, but the research shows it is safer on all 4 tires. We are just looking out for you and your family, to keep them safe and taken care of the best way possible.

I am an employee of Les Schwab, but first I was a customer of Les Schwab. The whole thing about 2 studded tires on the front of a car is because the studs will grip and then the rear end of your car could go out of control, causing an accident. It is safer to have all 4 tires the same for handling, safety and control. I acutally have a rear wheel drive car and put studs on all 4 wheels in the winter months so I have the maximum traction and the best safety. When I started working for this company it was allowed to put studded tires on just the front, but the research shows it is safer on all 4 tires. We are just looking out for you and your family, to keep them safe and taken care of the best way possible.

I am an employee of Les Schwab, but first I was a customer of Les Schwab. The whole thing about 2 studded tires on the front of a car is because the studs will grip and then the rear end of your car could go out of control, causing an accident. It is safer to have all 4 tires the same for handling, safety and control. I acutally have a rear wheel drive car and put studs on all 4 wheels in the winter months so I have the maximum traction and the best safety. When I started working for this company it was allowed to put studded tires on just the front, but the research shows it is safer on all 4 tires. We are just looking out for you and your family, to keep them safe and taken care of the best way possible.

I am an employee of Les Schwab, but first I was a customer of Les Schwab. The whole thing about 2 studded tires on the front of a car is because the studs will grip and then the rear end of your car could go out of control, causing an accident. It is safer to have all 4 tires the same for handling, safety and control. I acutally have a rear wheel drive car and put studs on all 4 wheels in the winter months so I have the maximum traction and the best safety. When I started working for this company it was allowed to put studded tires on just the front, but the research shows it is safer on all 4 tires. We are just looking out for you and your family, to keep them safe and taken care of the best way possible.

Hi All,
For the benefit of someone like me who has done all of his driving in places without snow and now living in a place that does snow... could you explain clearly exactly what the problems are?

Instead of calling someone an Idiot or a Moron (which closes off a person's desire to listen to what you have to say) could you clearly explain how many studded tires on what kind of car... and the benefits and disadvantages of each.

Actually I was a bit surprised, because when I moved to Wisc. and asked about studded tires for my Firebird I was told that they were illegal here. Instead I bought a cheapo FWD car for the winter.

In indeed this wasn't a rip-off by the tire store, then a clear, professional explanation as to why this is done for a customer's safety would reflect much better on the company and the person making a rebuttal.

Thanks,

They continue to circulate the myth that only front will drive vehicles need studded tires on all four wheels.

When you try to pin down any tire company for documentation such as accident studies or an independent study by the Department of Transportation, you get the same reply, How many death certificates are needed to believe us.

As a consumer, I do not blindly except any companies claim they are just looking out for my safety. The old saying would is true A fools many is soon parted if you don't question the bold claims without documentation from an independent source that supports the claim.

Until there is a study conducted and verified by the Department of Transportation you will need to register complaints to the BBS and your elected representative. And do like many consumers, have the tire company install studded snow tires on extra rims that you mount yourself that denies the tire company the extra business.

I second the request that this MORON put a sign on his car stating, "WARNING - IDIOT DRIVING"

I have been a customer of Les Schwab for many years and I can say without any question that the staff of Schwab is very safety conscious - If they tell me to do something with my car, or NOT to do something, then I LISTEN!

All the money he saved buying 2 extra studded tires will help him pay for a niceer funeral when he finally kills himself or some innocent person in his path!

Could the person that is only putting 2 studded tires on a front wheel drive vehicle please call me when you are going to be driving?

That way I can make sure I am not on the road with you!!

How do you think they were going to balance the tires without taking them off of the vehicle and then re-installing them on your car??

The re-installation of the tires after balancing sounds like a violation of their company policy, which it sounds like you understand.

You sound like someone who needs to think of your own safety and the safety of others a little more.

Sometimes doing it right costs more money. Congrats to the manager for sticking to his guns and not setting up his company for a multi-million dollar frivilous lawsuit.

Les Schwab is a pretty good company to do business with, hopefully you are not to stubborn to realize that you are wrong.

They filed the following rebuttal to the above Rip-Off Report:

Their email: shane@hrtobacco.com
Their name: Shane

Their relationship to the company: Consumer Suggestion

Rebuttal:
YOU ARE AN IDIOT. I hope I don't come accross the same path as you while you are losing control of your car and taking a chance on your life and putting other in danger. You should follow up on some serious accidents with vehicles and 2 studs on front. Yes they are covering their BUTTS, they are also thinking of your well being.

Les Schwab was sued for several million $, they settled. A front wheel drive vehicle lost control killing innosent people in another car. and those tire shops not following their lead in this policy is in for a rude awaikening when they are sued for this, it's called neglect.

The rear of a FWD vehicle can break free of traction to cause loss of control. A RWD vehicle is totally different, ther is no need for 4 studs. It will help steering in real severe conditions, but you wont lose control like a FWD. Please do some
investigating on this matter. I'll bet you start driving on 4 studs. Stop being an IDIOT and putting your life and others at risk. P.S. When you put on 4 studded tires you wont be an IDIOT anymore.