• Report: #50863

Complaint Review: Recreational Factory Warehouse

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  • Submitted: Fri, March 28, 2003
  • Updated: Tue, December 15, 2009

  • Reported By:Melbourne Florida
Recreational Factory Warehouse
100 N. Harbor City Blvd. Melbourne, Florida U.S.A.

Recreational Factory Warehouse Fraudulent advertising Rip-off Melbourne Florida

*General Comment: Mechanical Engineer explains it clearly

*Consumer Comment: Steve's a funny guy.

*Consumer Comment: Electical Engineer Sets the Record Straight

*Consumer Comment: Dirty little lie's

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: The Performance Part Industry Goes Out of Business

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: The Performance Part Industry Goes Out of Business

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: The Performance Part Industry Goes Out of Business

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: The Performance Part Industry Goes Out of Business

*REBUTTAL Owner of company: The laws of Physics have just been breached

*REBUTTAL Owner of company: The laws of Physics have just been breached

*REBUTTAL Owner of company: The laws of Physics have just been breached

*REBUTTAL Owner of company: The laws of Physics have just been breached

*UPDATE EX-employee responds: not false advertising

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The company indicates that some of their complete pool packages include a 2 1/2 HP pump. The pump has a 110 volt motor. THERE ARE NO ELECTRIC MOTORS ABOVE 1 1/2 HP THAT RUN OFF OF 110 VOLTS. Any higher horsepower would draw more then 20 amps which is the maximum size circuit breaker in virtually all houses and therefor would pop the breaker.

In fact, the amperage of the motor is 16 amps which indicates that it is, in fact, only a
1 1/2 HP motor. They are fraudulently deceiving the public into thinking they are getting something more (even thought it is not needed) then the competitors are giving.

Harvey
Melbourne, Florida
U.S.A.

This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 03/28/2003 12:10 PM and is a permanent record located here: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Recreational-Factory-Warehouse/Melbourne-Florida-32901/Recreational-Factory-Warehouse-Fraudulent-advertising-Rip-off-Melbourne-Florida-50863. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year.

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REBUTTALS & REPLIES:
0Author 9Consumer 4Employee/Owner
Updates & Rebuttals

#1 General Comment

Mechanical Engineer explains it clearly

AUTHOR: CaptainDean - (United States of America)

First of all. Don the Electrical Engineer was the only one that was right in any way.(proof read brother, motor not mother)
 You cannot change the laws of electrical energy. They are simply black and white with no gray areas. Study OHMS law to better understand this.
  To the fella that made mention of "the first law of Thermal Dynamics"..not even close.
For your info the first law of Thermal Dynamics is "you cannot make Energy nor can you destroy energy" To the others....Hydrodynamic Propulsion and internal combustion engines are a very bad example.
  Gentlemen this falls under the laws of Mechanical Engineering with an emphasis on FLUID DYNAMICS...which is my area of expertise. Horsepower is horsepower whether it is derived from electrical, internal combustion, etc.
  Let me put this is laymen terms. Impellers and Propellers do not have the same characteristics other then the fact they move substance internal or external.
  Fluid Dynamics like Electricity have similar characteristics. These 1.5-2.5 HP pumps do not have the same flow rates. Regardless of what the fluid is they are moving. There is also pressures involved and close loops and open loops, that's another story.
  This fella Steve is just a salesmen passing on info he gets from somewhere else.
Swimming pools are recognized as an open loop application...that makes it even more elementary. An electric 1.5 HP pump, regardless of it's impeller design or it's volute structure and even it's delivery mechanism (piping) cannot move the same fluid (in this case water) than a 2.5 HP electric pump. (Don can explain why AC motors (2 brush) only have one speed, but not the case here) 1750 rpm OR 3500 rpm.
  Yes you can make modifications to THE PUMP to decrease and increase flow rates to a minimum, but still has an affect on the energy the electric pump uses.
  If they spent that type of money on these cheap above ground pools...then the proper way to advertise it would be to have a 1.5 HP/110 VAC pump with enhanced flow rate properties..but you are never going to see that.
   The moral of the story is this is a case of false advertisement, cut and dry !!
I am a strong advocate of this web site...reading alot of this is for all of us to better ourselves as educated consumers.
  This lady went through hell trying to do something special for her kids...this company FRW should be shut down with all the complaints filed on this site alone.
  Class action suits are complex...but Attorneys should jump on this one.
SHAME ON YOU FRW.
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#2 Consumer Comment

Steve's a funny guy.

AUTHOR: Kyle - (U.S.A.)

Steve,

Your comments are hilarious. A 1.5HP motor running a 2.5Hp impeller would overheat very quickly.
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#3 Consumer Comment

Electical Engineer Sets the Record Straight

AUTHOR: Don - (U.S.A.)

I ran across this argument and thought I would put in my two cents.

Horespower is a measure of power. One horsepower is equal to 746 watts. A 1 1/2 horsepower motor can do 1,119 watt-hours of work in one hour;no more,no less. And work equates to the amount of water the pump can move in a given time. The size of the wet end might change the punp's efficiency slightly but it would be difficult to measure the difference. Otherwise, every manufacturer would be using a 1/4 horsepower mother with a huge wet end and save the consumer a lot of money.

So, Harvey and Hack are right. This is false advertising.
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#4 Consumer Comment

Dirty little lie's

AUTHOR: Hack - (Honduras)

Steve, know your facts before you take on the big boys. It imposable to get more than 2.5 hp out of a 2.5 hp motor no matter what size wet end you use. However it is possible to reduce hp by using a smaller impeller. Youre telling us a Honda Civic w/a 1.5ltr 98 hp engine can pull as well as a Peter Built, if you change the exhaust system.

We all know that we arent as smart as you and the specialists at RFW. But just how stupid do you think we (the people) are? The fact is as Harvey was trying to point out, is that no pump will run at its rated hp. The pumps hp is rated before the wet end, and the load of the water is added to it. So in reality the pump only runs 56% of its rated hp. Brake horsepower or bhp is the true hp after the load is added. So if a 2.5hp motor loses 56% of its power under load it would be 1.1bhp.

A car engine is an air pump and a spa pump is a water pump. Comparing the two is like comparing apples to oranges. Both can be altered to increase flow but only allows the motor to run closer to its peak.

Spas commonly come with a 200gpm return suction (this is the round thing with many holes in the bottom of the spa. If two returns were added you would deliver 400gpm, three would deliver 600gpm, and so on. 2-inch pipe has a higher flow rate than -inch pipe. This dose not change the hp of the pump but plays a part in how the pump performs. I.E. you dont change the hp you only free up restricted hp. We all know that a 2.5hp pump couldnt pump 1 million gpm. Steve, from your statements you seem to believe if we put a bigger impeller on the pump this could be accomplished. What kind of fools do you take us for?

One thing I have found out about RFW is they dont like to be proven wrong or caught in a lie. They make up stuff as they go along. As long as they make a sale, theyre happy. Thats all theyre concerned about. Ive heard some of the stories and reed a lot of these reports. It seems that it isnt just a few employees in some of the stores but company policy to deceive and lie. RFW has pulled these tricks for years and have gotten by with it. Thanks to web sites like rip-off report we can voice our opinion and give our knowledge.

They are many people out there who have not been able to see these reports or make a report of there own. Many are too humble to give their opinions. Many are too proud to let anyone know they have been taken advantage of. But you have been fortunate enough to see the reports. RFW isnt the only Co. doing this just the only Co. to do it so successfully.

Hack, President of CompTec Inc.
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#5 UPDATE EX-employee responds

The Performance Part Industry Goes Out of Business

AUTHOR: Steve - (U.S.A.)

In response to Harvey's eloquent technical laden response to my comments I have only two things to say. First: The performance parts insustry has some serious explaining to do. Why is it that if I want more horsepower for my car I can change the exhaust system on it, or the intake for that matter. All of this change the horsepower, or excuse me folks reading this(I don't have a degree in chemical engineering) performance of the engine. Second: Boat owners beware! If what Harvey says is true, than that larger propeller(or impeller in the pool industry) that you just bought for your motor will not make it go any faster or increase it's performance and you must buy a larger motor to go along with it. Fortunatly, in other parts of the galaxy other than Harvey's planet, consumers can buy performance parts for their motors, pumps, cars, engines, etc... All to increase the ouput of their purchase without having to increase the size of the motor, pump, car, engine, etc... By the way the Geo Metro which is a very small car(3 cylinder) gets over 40mpg.
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#6 UPDATE EX-employee responds

The Performance Part Industry Goes Out of Business

AUTHOR: Steve - (U.S.A.)

In response to Harvey's eloquent technical laden response to my comments I have only two things to say. First: The performance parts insustry has some serious explaining to do. Why is it that if I want more horsepower for my car I can change the exhaust system on it, or the intake for that matter. All of this change the horsepower, or excuse me folks reading this(I don't have a degree in chemical engineering) performance of the engine. Second: Boat owners beware! If what Harvey says is true, than that larger propeller(or impeller in the pool industry) that you just bought for your motor will not make it go any faster or increase it's performance and you must buy a larger motor to go along with it. Fortunatly, in other parts of the galaxy other than Harvey's planet, consumers can buy performance parts for their motors, pumps, cars, engines, etc... All to increase the ouput of their purchase without having to increase the size of the motor, pump, car, engine, etc... By the way the Geo Metro which is a very small car(3 cylinder) gets over 40mpg.
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#7 UPDATE EX-employee responds

The Performance Part Industry Goes Out of Business

AUTHOR: Steve - (U.S.A.)

In response to Harvey's eloquent technical laden response to my comments I have only two things to say. First: The performance parts insustry has some serious explaining to do. Why is it that if I want more horsepower for my car I can change the exhaust system on it, or the intake for that matter. All of this change the horsepower, or excuse me folks reading this(I don't have a degree in chemical engineering) performance of the engine. Second: Boat owners beware! If what Harvey says is true, than that larger propeller(or impeller in the pool industry) that you just bought for your motor will not make it go any faster or increase it's performance and you must buy a larger motor to go along with it. Fortunatly, in other parts of the galaxy other than Harvey's planet, consumers can buy performance parts for their motors, pumps, cars, engines, etc... All to increase the ouput of their purchase without having to increase the size of the motor, pump, car, engine, etc... By the way the Geo Metro which is a very small car(3 cylinder) gets over 40mpg.
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#8 UPDATE EX-employee responds

The Performance Part Industry Goes Out of Business

AUTHOR: Steve - (U.S.A.)

In response to Harvey's eloquent technical laden response to my comments I have only two things to say. First: The performance parts insustry has some serious explaining to do. Why is it that if I want more horsepower for my car I can change the exhaust system on it, or the intake for that matter. All of this change the horsepower, or excuse me folks reading this(I don't have a degree in chemical engineering) performance of the engine. Second: Boat owners beware! If what Harvey says is true, than that larger propeller(or impeller in the pool industry) that you just bought for your motor will not make it go any faster or increase it's performance and you must buy a larger motor to go along with it. Fortunatly, in other parts of the galaxy other than Harvey's planet, consumers can buy performance parts for their motors, pumps, cars, engines, etc... All to increase the ouput of their purchase without having to increase the size of the motor, pump, car, engine, etc... By the way the Geo Metro which is a very small car(3 cylinder) gets over 40mpg.
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#9 REBUTTAL Owner of company

The laws of Physics have just been breached

AUTHOR: Harvey - (U.S.A.)

Responding to Steve's rebuttal, firstly, I never said I was a customer. I am in fact a competitor. I also hold a degree in Chemical Engineering which is why I am amazed that Steve thinks he can get 2 1/2 HP of work out of a 1 1/2 HP motor. If this were the case, we would all be getting 40 mpg in our cars because we would need very tiny engines in them and still get major horsepower. If Steve has developed a method to increase efficiency from 55% - 65% which is the average for electric motors, to 160% +, well then, can you say Nobel Prize?
The reason that wet ends are rated at specific horsepowers is that they require specific HP to accomplish what they are designed to do, i.e., a 2 1/2 HP wet end requires 2 1/2 HP to move the amount of water that it is designed to move. Since 1 HP requires 6.8 amps at 110 volts at 100% efficiency, it is easy to see that at 56% efficiency it will require 12.1 amps, and 2 1/2 HP will require over 30 amps at 56% efficiency, and about 26 amps if the efficiency is increased to 65%. If you put a 1 1/2 HP motor on a 2 1/2 HP wet end, your motor will burn out very quickly. You can multiply torque, but you can't multiply HP. 1st Law of Thermodynamics. Sorry Steve.
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#10 REBUTTAL Owner of company

The laws of Physics have just been breached

AUTHOR: Harvey - (U.S.A.)

Responding to Steve's rebuttal, firstly, I never said I was a customer. I am in fact a competitor. I also hold a degree in Chemical Engineering which is why I am amazed that Steve thinks he can get 2 1/2 HP of work out of a 1 1/2 HP motor. If this were the case, we would all be getting 40 mpg in our cars because we would need very tiny engines in them and still get major horsepower. If Steve has developed a method to increase efficiency from 55% - 65% which is the average for electric motors, to 160% +, well then, can you say Nobel Prize?
The reason that wet ends are rated at specific horsepowers is that they require specific HP to accomplish what they are designed to do, i.e., a 2 1/2 HP wet end requires 2 1/2 HP to move the amount of water that it is designed to move. Since 1 HP requires 6.8 amps at 110 volts at 100% efficiency, it is easy to see that at 56% efficiency it will require 12.1 amps, and 2 1/2 HP will require over 30 amps at 56% efficiency, and about 26 amps if the efficiency is increased to 65%. If you put a 1 1/2 HP motor on a 2 1/2 HP wet end, your motor will burn out very quickly. You can multiply torque, but you can't multiply HP. 1st Law of Thermodynamics. Sorry Steve.
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#11 REBUTTAL Owner of company

The laws of Physics have just been breached

AUTHOR: Harvey - (U.S.A.)

Responding to Steve's rebuttal, firstly, I never said I was a customer. I am in fact a competitor. I also hold a degree in Chemical Engineering which is why I am amazed that Steve thinks he can get 2 1/2 HP of work out of a 1 1/2 HP motor. If this were the case, we would all be getting 40 mpg in our cars because we would need very tiny engines in them and still get major horsepower. If Steve has developed a method to increase efficiency from 55% - 65% which is the average for electric motors, to 160% +, well then, can you say Nobel Prize?
The reason that wet ends are rated at specific horsepowers is that they require specific HP to accomplish what they are designed to do, i.e., a 2 1/2 HP wet end requires 2 1/2 HP to move the amount of water that it is designed to move. Since 1 HP requires 6.8 amps at 110 volts at 100% efficiency, it is easy to see that at 56% efficiency it will require 12.1 amps, and 2 1/2 HP will require over 30 amps at 56% efficiency, and about 26 amps if the efficiency is increased to 65%. If you put a 1 1/2 HP motor on a 2 1/2 HP wet end, your motor will burn out very quickly. You can multiply torque, but you can't multiply HP. 1st Law of Thermodynamics. Sorry Steve.
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#12 REBUTTAL Owner of company

The laws of Physics have just been breached

AUTHOR: Harvey - (U.S.A.)

Responding to Steve's rebuttal, firstly, I never said I was a customer. I am in fact a competitor. I also hold a degree in Chemical Engineering which is why I am amazed that Steve thinks he can get 2 1/2 HP of work out of a 1 1/2 HP motor. If this were the case, we would all be getting 40 mpg in our cars because we would need very tiny engines in them and still get major horsepower. If Steve has developed a method to increase efficiency from 55% - 65% which is the average for electric motors, to 160% +, well then, can you say Nobel Prize?
The reason that wet ends are rated at specific horsepowers is that they require specific HP to accomplish what they are designed to do, i.e., a 2 1/2 HP wet end requires 2 1/2 HP to move the amount of water that it is designed to move. Since 1 HP requires 6.8 amps at 110 volts at 100% efficiency, it is easy to see that at 56% efficiency it will require 12.1 amps, and 2 1/2 HP will require over 30 amps at 56% efficiency, and about 26 amps if the efficiency is increased to 65%. If you put a 1 1/2 HP motor on a 2 1/2 HP wet end, your motor will burn out very quickly. You can multiply torque, but you can't multiply HP. 1st Law of Thermodynamics. Sorry Steve.
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#13 UPDATE EX-employee responds

not false advertising

AUTHOR: Steve - (U.S.A.)

The "customer" is right. Not one of their MOTORS are over 1.5hp. However their PUMPS are as large as 2.5hp. How is this possible? By putting a larger wet end (pump) and impeller you can get and equivilent output of water volume without increasing the size or voltage requirement of the motor.

This is very convenient for the consumer as this saves them from having expensive 220v wiring done and still get a pump that moves a maximum amount of water in their pool.

My only comment to Harvey would be, based on his usage of the term "competitors". Since it seems you work for a pool company in a market where RFW is located and are having trouble competing with a 2.5hp pump, maybe you should consider asking your manufacturer to carry something equally as powerfull. Its easier to compete with product than with accusations.
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