Wachovia Bank Convenient Over Draft Fees rip off policy. Miami Florida

Dennis, your original post was PERFECTLY CLEAR. We all understood what you were saying. And Jrb is correct that everyone is missing the point. Dennis and all other customers are not arguing that they should escape blame. Nor is anyone arguing that they're ledgers are incorrect. A properly kept ledger will indeed show the customer that he overdrew his account. But that ledger will ALSO SHOW the sequence of the transactions.

Many bank supporters will emphasize, when you make a transaction, IMMEDIATELY record it in your ledger. No problem. I can make the argument that many customers like Dennis actually do this. In Dennis' example in the OP, after Dennis makes the $100, $50, and $100 withdrawals, he properly records them in the ledger and the ledger shows him a balance of $550. Then if Dennis makes one last withdrawal of $800 or if Dennis writes a check for $800, he then records it in his ledger. He has an accurately kept ledger that does show him the account is overdrawn. But his accurately kept ledger shows him that ONLY THE LAST transaction overdrew the account. Once again Jrb is correct - Why should Dennis be charged THREE fees instead of only ONE.

But to Dennis. Wachovia is far from alone in this practice. Just about ALL banks post in this manner, except for VERY FEW. Washington Mutual is one such bank and I'm sure there are others but they can be hard to find. Of course credit unions are always a safe bet in this regard. Now one might ask, why go through the hassle of trying to find a bank or credit union that DOES NOT post this way, when all you have to do is keep an accurate check register and don't overdraw your account and you won't be charged ANY fees. This is the jist of Striderq's argument and Striderq is correct. I can't argue with that.

The problem is THE PRINCIPAL of the situation. Yes indeed you should keep an accurate check register and never overdraw your account. But why bank with someone who's out to PUNISH you unfairly because of one mistake. But that's not all. In addition to PUNISHING you unfairly, why bank with someone who THEN tries to make you think it's for your OWN GOOD - with the familiar Mortgage check LIE. Why not just come right out and say you POST items this way for SOLE PURPOSE of making money off customers at the HIGHEST EXTENT possible instead of just OUTRIGHT LYING about it.

That's the ripoff here and at MANY banks in addition to Wachovia.

unfortunately, not the order the debits were made in but the order they will post in. Wachovia and all banks that I know of will post debits from largest to smallest. even though as in the OP the smaller items were done earlier chronologically, during processing Wachovia will:

1) Add deposits and credits to the account

2) Process debits from largest to smallest

3) Access fees if any for that day.


So if the OP had kept their register properly, when they had the balance of $800 and the transaction for $800 then they would not have done any of the other transactions. Or having done the other transactions would not have committed to the $800. Either way the bottom line is simple: don't spend more than you have available in your account and you won't get fees.

I would like to thank Jrb for understanding what I was trying to say. He explained it perfectly. That is exactly my point.
I am sorry for not explaining myself clearly on my first posting.
Thank you very much Jrb

Dennis, Miami Florida

The gentleman who filed the report was speaking about the sequence of withdrawls. This was first an example he gave. Secondly he is not arguing the point that one should be more fastideous towards his accounting practices.

His point again is the sequence of withdrawls. If the atm or counter withdrawls are made prior to the large check or auto deduct, then the previous withdrawls were accounted for already and subsequently not overdrafts. Until the "$800" withdrawl came in he did have money in said account by Wachovia's own accounting! Why should he or anyone else be charged 3 overdraft fees, instead only one. The one that emptied his account.

If his first two withdrawls that day did not result in a zero balance, they were NOT overdrafts. Again, his lack of ledger savvy is irrelevant to his argument. We and businesses have the capacity to measure everything down to the second, they should be able to determine the sequence of banking transactions. The certainly can tell that your deposit was after 3pm, holding that credit till the "next business Day". I have to agree with Dennis (sorry if that is not the original posters name)...

Since this OP is DIRECTLY related to posting order policies, I felt compelled to provide this update for the record, even though I have already mentioned it on other threads, but those other threads are not related to this issue.

From my own research, I had already discovered that one WELL KNOWN national bank did not post items in order of Largest-To-Smallest. So I suspected there might be and probably are more banks like this. So instead of revealing the name of this ONE bank and coming across as someone with a biased agenda, that's why I was not as forthcoming. I wanted to continue researching and wait until I had other names, so whenever I made the statement that not all top tier national banks use this method, I could recommend the OP try switching to a bank that doesn't use this method and here are SOME names to choose from. Instead of directing them only to a SINGLE bank.

Well, after Jim revealed to me that Washington Mutual is NOT LIKE some of the other national banks and it doesn't have to adhere to the same regulations, this might explain how WAMU could have branches in different cities or regions that do things differently. This is precisely what I suspected, but I didn't know how to confirm this. But my point is, who's to say there aren't OTHER banks in this same category with WAMU and I suspect there are. Hopefully this information will compel others to come forth and reveal the names of other banks they know of that don't post transactions in this mannter that MANY customers detests. But rather than continuing to withhold this information and being called a LIAR and FRAUD I hope I have found a way to not appear to be biased.

So, to the OP, I can confirm that Washington Mutual here in Dallas does not post in order of Largest-To-Smallest, as your local Wachovia branch does. So if this issue is that important to you, you should definitely close your account with this Wachovia branch and move your money to a different bank - if you can find one that suits you. Where you move your money is totally UP TO YOU, and let me clarify that if there is a Washington Mutual branch in your area, I'm NOT confirming that it does things the same as the branch here in Dallas. But chances are there could be OTHER banks in your area that DO post items in the order that you prefer - that is the order in which they occur. Good Luck!

Gary, Every single bank I've dealt with has also posted deposits FIRST also, even when I had an account with Bandits of America. BofA did exactly as you say M&T does, deposits first, then debits in order of Largest-To-Smallest.

Whenever I ask the question of why banks use the Largest-To-Smallest posting order, of course everyone is right there anxiously waiting to respond with the typical answer - It's what the customers want to prevent Mortgage and Car loan checks from being returned. Even though I know this is a line of bull, I say fine and move on. But whenever I ask the question of who benefits from the banks posting deposits LASTS, NO ONE has yet to answer it this question.

Thanks for your confirmation of what I've saying all along. NOT ALL banks practice these screw the customer tactics. You just have to do your own thorough research of each BRANCH, not BANK, in your own local area.

I know my regular bank M&T bank posts Deposits first then withdrawls/checks ect from high to low. I also have a credit union account with ESL Federal Credit union. They post deposits and withdrawls as they happen. They post checks toward the end of the day. But, the bottom line is konwing YOUR banks policy and keeping an accurate register are the only ways to aviod these fees. I admit when I tried to fudge things through I have been caught and paid dearly for my lack of financial judgement. Hope this helps!

I know my regular bank M&T bank posts Deposits first then withdrawls/checks ect from high to low. I also have a credit union account with ESL Federal Credit union. They post deposits and withdrawls as they happen. They post checks toward the end of the day. But, the bottom line is konwing YOUR banks policy and keeping an accurate register are the only ways to aviod these fees. I admit when I tried to fudge things through I have been caught and paid dearly for my lack of financial judgement. Hope this helps!

On 10/24 on this thread, after posting the FDIC list that I was using only as reference, TWO HOURS LATER Mike posted a rebuttal where he questioned my information and claimed I was making it up.

The next day, 10/25 on this same thread, after I tried to clarify things for Mike with additional information, THREE HOURS LATER Bart makes his entrance with a rebuttal claiming the information I put forth is crap, and I'm a fraud who helps NOBODY.

After giving everyone the suggestion of calling the Dallas branches FOR YOURSELVES to verify what I have said, no one has yet to dispute it. Even though Truth Detector has now responded, notice how there's no mention of what he FOUND OUT this time, like he mentioned what he found out in an earlier post when HE PERSONALLY heard from employees and customers of these banks. Hmmm...... So I have only to assume from your absence that you have indeed confirmed my assertions.

So let me repeat it again for everyone, hopefully clearly enough for you to understand what I'm trying to say. It's well known that MANY banks practice the Largest-To-Smallest posting order. But not ALL large, National banks use this method. And I can't simply list these banks by name, because there doesn't appear to be a clear cut list. Each BRANCH is unique.

From my research which has yet to be contradicted, it appears that some large national banks do use this method at ALL of their branches. Then there appears to be some large national banks that use this method at some branches, but at others they do not. And there may be some large national banks that don't use this method AT ALL. The key is you can't assume anything, you just have to do your own research of the local branches in your area.

P.S. In no way do I condone irresponsible financial behavior and trying to get away scott free for your own mistake But what I am suggesting is that not all of these banks try to MAXIMIZE your mistakes to their advantage and to your detriment until the barrel runs dry.

'I would like to say that Wachovia's personnel, (who sound like attorneys)are doing a good job in backing up the company's money making policy. They are very intimidating Edward, and I want to thank you for making this matter more clear. As I read all the rebuttals, this reports are starting to sound more like a court case. I hope one day, this will actually go to court in order to stop Wachovia, and any other banks from using this method, which in reality is a very well planned money scheme. Sorry Wachovia but this is not right.'

My rebuttals have not been the result of law education or experience, but rather the conclusions of a logical adult. It is true I have higher education (M.P.A. Public Policy...an accomplishment I am proud of, but not a law degree) - but it does not take a brilliant mind to evaluate the information that has been presented here.

You see, I deal in facts, not theory. In theory, banks would treat customers fairly. I have never once said that ordering transactions is fair. However, reality dictates that because banks an legally maximize profits this way, customers must educate themselves and stop the exploitation before it starts.

Edward, do you honestly believe that I asked you for a list of banks that treat customers fairly to 'out' you - or that we all huddle to plot our next retort? I sincerely wanted to know the list of banks, as do countless others who are frustrated with banks that exploit customers.

But when you preach feel-good rhetoric and complain about the policies of these crooks, you do little more than lead a pep rally. Consumers do not need a pep rally. Consumers need the truth - and the truth is, almost every national and local bank shafts customers this way. Credit Unions make their bones by successfully accumulating and maintaining a customer base that is loyal. When you make a mistake, they are usually quick to work with you to minimize the damage to your finances. That is why most of us have advocated moving from banks to credit unions. Credit Unions need MEMBERS, not another number.

Your passion is admirable, but I would like to see you gravitate more toward helping these OPs work toward responsible choices than to simply complain with them. Remember, some of the worst oppressors in recent history (Hitler, Stalin, Mao) were able to exploit and control the citizenry they governed by actively undermining the public's ability to think and reason. We do not want a nation of whiners and complainers. We do not benefit from having a nation of victims. We benefit from an educated public that sees this type of exploitation - then leaves it at the alter.

'I would like to say that Wachovia's personnel, (who sound like attorneys)are doing a good job in backing up the company's money making policy. They are very intimidating Edward, and I want to thank you for making this matter more clear. As I read all the rebuttals, this reports are starting to sound more like a court case. I hope one day, this will actually go to court in order to stop Wachovia, and any other banks from using this method, which in reality is a very well planned money scheme. Sorry Wachovia but this is not right.'

My rebuttals have not been the result of law education or experience, but rather the conclusions of a logical adult. It is true I have higher education (M.P.A. Public Policy...an accomplishment I am proud of, but not a law degree) - but it does not take a brilliant mind to evaluate the information that has been presented here.

You see, I deal in facts, not theory. In theory, banks would treat customers fairly. I have never once said that ordering transactions is fair. However, reality dictates that because banks an legally maximize profits this way, customers must educate themselves and stop the exploitation before it starts.

Edward, do you honestly believe that I asked you for a list of banks that treat customers fairly to 'out' you - or that we all huddle to plot our next retort? I sincerely wanted to know the list of banks, as do countless others who are frustrated with banks that exploit customers.

But when you preach feel-good rhetoric and complain about the policies of these crooks, you do little more than lead a pep rally. Consumers do not need a pep rally. Consumers need the truth - and the truth is, almost every national and local bank shafts customers this way. Credit Unions make their bones by successfully accumulating and maintaining a customer base that is loyal. When you make a mistake, they are usually quick to work with you to minimize the damage to your finances. That is why most of us have advocated moving from banks to credit unions. Credit Unions need MEMBERS, not another number.

Your passion is admirable, but I would like to see you gravitate more toward helping these OPs work toward responsible choices than to simply complain with them. Remember, some of the worst oppressors in recent history (Hitler, Stalin, Mao) were able to exploit and control the citizenry they governed by actively undermining the public's ability to think and reason. We do not want a nation of whiners and complainers. We do not benefit from having a nation of victims. We benefit from an educated public that sees this type of exploitation - then leaves it at the alter.

'I would like to say that Wachovia's personnel, (who sound like attorneys)are doing a good job in backing up the company's money making policy. They are very intimidating Edward, and I want to thank you for making this matter more clear. As I read all the rebuttals, this reports are starting to sound more like a court case. I hope one day, this will actually go to court in order to stop Wachovia, and any other banks from using this method, which in reality is a very well planned money scheme. Sorry Wachovia but this is not right.'

My rebuttals have not been the result of law education or experience, but rather the conclusions of a logical adult. It is true I have higher education (M.P.A. Public Policy...an accomplishment I am proud of, but not a law degree) - but it does not take a brilliant mind to evaluate the information that has been presented here.

You see, I deal in facts, not theory. In theory, banks would treat customers fairly. I have never once said that ordering transactions is fair. However, reality dictates that because banks an legally maximize profits this way, customers must educate themselves and stop the exploitation before it starts.

Edward, do you honestly believe that I asked you for a list of banks that treat customers fairly to 'out' you - or that we all huddle to plot our next retort? I sincerely wanted to know the list of banks, as do countless others who are frustrated with banks that exploit customers.

But when you preach feel-good rhetoric and complain about the policies of these crooks, you do little more than lead a pep rally. Consumers do not need a pep rally. Consumers need the truth - and the truth is, almost every national and local bank shafts customers this way. Credit Unions make their bones by successfully accumulating and maintaining a customer base that is loyal. When you make a mistake, they are usually quick to work with you to minimize the damage to your finances. That is why most of us have advocated moving from banks to credit unions. Credit Unions need MEMBERS, not another number.

Your passion is admirable, but I would like to see you gravitate more toward helping these OPs work toward responsible choices than to simply complain with them. Remember, some of the worst oppressors in recent history (Hitler, Stalin, Mao) were able to exploit and control the citizenry they governed by actively undermining the public's ability to think and reason. We do not want a nation of whiners and complainers. We do not benefit from having a nation of victims. We benefit from an educated public that sees this type of exploitation - then leaves it at the alter.

'I would like to say that Wachovia's personnel, (who sound like attorneys)are doing a good job in backing up the company's money making policy. They are very intimidating Edward, and I want to thank you for making this matter more clear. As I read all the rebuttals, this reports are starting to sound more like a court case. I hope one day, this will actually go to court in order to stop Wachovia, and any other banks from using this method, which in reality is a very well planned money scheme. Sorry Wachovia but this is not right.'

My rebuttals have not been the result of law education or experience, but rather the conclusions of a logical adult. It is true I have higher education (M.P.A. Public Policy...an accomplishment I am proud of, but not a law degree) - but it does not take a brilliant mind to evaluate the information that has been presented here.

You see, I deal in facts, not theory. In theory, banks would treat customers fairly. I have never once said that ordering transactions is fair. However, reality dictates that because banks an legally maximize profits this way, customers must educate themselves and stop the exploitation before it starts.

Edward, do you honestly believe that I asked you for a list of banks that treat customers fairly to 'out' you - or that we all huddle to plot our next retort? I sincerely wanted to know the list of banks, as do countless others who are frustrated with banks that exploit customers.

But when you preach feel-good rhetoric and complain about the policies of these crooks, you do little more than lead a pep rally. Consumers do not need a pep rally. Consumers need the truth - and the truth is, almost every national and local bank shafts customers this way. Credit Unions make their bones by successfully accumulating and maintaining a customer base that is loyal. When you make a mistake, they are usually quick to work with you to minimize the damage to your finances. That is why most of us have advocated moving from banks to credit unions. Credit Unions need MEMBERS, not another number.

Your passion is admirable, but I would like to see you gravitate more toward helping these OPs work toward responsible choices than to simply complain with them. Remember, some of the worst oppressors in recent history (Hitler, Stalin, Mao) were able to exploit and control the citizenry they governed by actively undermining the public's ability to think and reason. We do not want a nation of whiners and complainers. We do not benefit from having a nation of victims. We benefit from an educated public that sees this type of exploitation - then leaves it at the alter.

Jim gives great advice directing consumers to Credit Unions because they're more consumer friendly and DO NOT use posting order policies like this. But what I'm stating is that not all large National banks use this posting order policy. And further research has shown that just because it's well documented by many consumers that certain National banks do use this posting order, it could so be that they have some branches of these same National banks that DO NOT use this policy.

As Jim indicates, the day may come when ALL of these National banks use this policy, across the board at ALL BRANCHES. What I'm stating is, that day is not yet here. But when it does come, you can believe I will be right on board with Jim's advice condemning ALL of these National banks because let's be clear, I do think ALL of them are crooks. But right now, you still have some choices and not all of them are guilty as charged. You just have to do YOUR OWN research. Like I did .

Truth Detector is QUICK to make the statement Edward = BUSTED. But when presented with additional information he fails to return and say the opposite. Mike is QUICK to sayYou obviously have NO first hand knowledge are are simply making things up in your posts'. But when presented with additional information, Mike fails to return and say Edward, you obviously were not making things up and do have first hand knowledge'. Bart is QUICK to say you just spew crap out and state it is fact without any research' and You are a fraud and have been since you started posting here. You help NOBODY'. But when presented with additional information that can't be disputed, Bart fails to return and say Edward, the information you put forth is not crap. You are not a fraud and you obviously do help people, like Dennis here'. This is what I mean by picking their spots', like the bank employees, who are conveniently still absent!

I can make these statements because I lead by example. On many threads I have done this very thing, given credit where it's due even when it was I who was proven wrong. Dennis you are correct. They can be intimidating, although I don't think they all work for the bank, though some probably do. It's my belief that some of them are fellow consumers who just get a kick' out of kicking' others when they're down. Pun Intended!

Let the records show whose truly here to help and who the REAL FRAUDS are!

I would like to say that Wachovia's personnel, (who sound like attorneys)are doing a good job in backing up the company's money making policy. They are very intimidating Edward, and I want to thank you for making this matter more clear. As I read all the rebuttals, this reports are starting to sound more like a court case. I hope one day, this will actually go to court in order to stop Wachovia, and any other banks from using this method, which in reality is a very well planned money scheme. Sorry Wachovia but this is not right.

While everyone else is STILL SILENT, huddling up, researching, re-grouping, or whatever, let me continue and give you more information. I want to focus on what Jim indicated in his post - reading the Depositor Agreements. Dejavu! Heard that before?

From my own additional research, I have gone back, reviewed the Depositor Agreements from some of these banks and guess what? Regarding posting order, their depositor agreements simply state they can post in ANY order they choose. No problem, this is typical legal wording that covers them no matter WHICH METHOD they choose. But THESE SAME banks in fact post items by section according to transaction type, then by sequence within each section.

So in effect, even though THEY CAN post in ANY order they choose (Depositor Agreement), at this point in time, they ARE NOT posting in order of Largest-To-Smallest. BIG DIFFERENCE! As Jim also indicates, these banks could change at any time, and the Depositor Agreement would allow them to do so - the reason for the vague wording. But the point is right now today, I repeat, they DO NOT post by Largest-To-Smallest.

Once again, this is where it pays to be diligent and thorough in YOUR OWN research. For me this confirms even more my reason for NOT naming these banks because just because this is how some branches do things in Dallas, this MIGHT NOT mean all branches of THE SAME bank do things this same way NATIONWIDE.

And by the same token, once again to prove I'm fair, this also infers that some of those banks that I've already concluded that do post using Largest-To-Smallest posting order....Let me correct myself and state I'm only speaking for those branches here in Dallas. All branches might not do this NATIONWIDE.

To Bart. If you were truly familiar with my ENTIRE posting history on VARIOUS threads, as is Truth Detector, Mike, Jim, Daphne and others, you would not use the words crap and fraud for my observations because the past results speak for themselves, as will this one here. I digress.

Wow, you guys are tough. I give you credit. You have backed me into a corner. As I've said many times before on many threads, I'm a stand up guy who gives credit where it's due, and I never take things personal. To Truth Detector, maybe your research was better than mine here on the ROR. So help me out. Why not provide some of those ROR links you mention for those banks for which I was unsure about, where the OP's complaint is specifically POSTING ORDER?

Ok. Truth Detector gave me a politically correct way to answer everyone's question. Why don't you call your local branches for these banks on this list and ask them is it possible for them to use one policy, but one of their sister branches in a different city use a different policy. If their answer is NO and ALL branches adhere to the same NATIONAL policy then we have ourselves a dilemma. This will prove that someone is a liar and I can ASSURE you it's not me.

The key is to DO YOUR OWN research, kind of like a new customer seeking a bank would do? Remember this advice many of you have given to OP complainers? Read what you're getting yourselves into? One or more of these banks on this list have branches here in Dallas, and they DO NOT post transactions in order of Largest-To-Smallest. Trust me, I know first hand because I DID DO my research (Bart). Don't believe me? Then try calling the Dallas branches for these National Banks on this VERY SHORT LIST - There's the answer.

Again I ask, where are the bank employee contributors to debunk me about this theory? How is it that bank employees can show up to ridicule a customer about their OD complaint but none show up to answer legitimate questions like this about policy? I know you're out there because I see your recent posts on different threads and I know you're always lurking and watching. You just CONVENIENTLY choose to pick your spots, like Mike and Bart. But again I say, your silence is still consent.

To Bart. If you were truly familiar with my ENTIRE posting history on VARIOUS threads, as is Truth Detector, Mike, Jim, Daphne and others, you would not use the words crap and fraud for my observations because the past results speak for themselves, as will this one here. I digress.

Wow, you guys are tough. I give you credit. You have backed me into a corner. As I've said many times before on many threads, I'm a stand up guy who gives credit where it's due, and I never take things personal. To Truth Detector, maybe your research was better than mine here on the ROR. So help me out. Why not provide some of those ROR links you mention for those banks for which I was unsure about, where the OP's complaint is specifically POSTING ORDER?

Ok. Truth Detector gave me a politically correct way to answer everyone's question. Why don't you call your local branches for these banks on this list and ask them is it possible for them to use one policy, but one of their sister branches in a different city use a different policy. If their answer is NO and ALL branches adhere to the same NATIONAL policy then we have ourselves a dilemma. This will prove that someone is a liar and I can ASSURE you it's not me.

The key is to DO YOUR OWN research, kind of like a new customer seeking a bank would do? Remember this advice many of you have given to OP complainers? Read what you're getting yourselves into? One or more of these banks on this list have branches here in Dallas, and they DO NOT post transactions in order of Largest-To-Smallest. Trust me, I know first hand because I DID DO my research (Bart). Don't believe me? Then try calling the Dallas branches for these National Banks on this VERY SHORT LIST - There's the answer.

Again I ask, where are the bank employee contributors to debunk me about this theory? How is it that bank employees can show up to ridicule a customer about their OD complaint but none show up to answer legitimate questions like this about policy? I know you're out there because I see your recent posts on different threads and I know you're always lurking and watching. You just CONVENIENTLY choose to pick your spots, like Mike and Bart. But again I say, your silence is still consent.

To Bart. If you were truly familiar with my ENTIRE posting history on VARIOUS threads, as is Truth Detector, Mike, Jim, Daphne and others, you would not use the words crap and fraud for my observations because the past results speak for themselves, as will this one here. I digress.

Wow, you guys are tough. I give you credit. You have backed me into a corner. As I've said many times before on many threads, I'm a stand up guy who gives credit where it's due, and I never take things personal. To Truth Detector, maybe your research was better than mine here on the ROR. So help me out. Why not provide some of those ROR links you mention for those banks for which I was unsure about, where the OP's complaint is specifically POSTING ORDER?

Ok. Truth Detector gave me a politically correct way to answer everyone's question. Why don't you call your local branches for these banks on this list and ask them is it possible for them to use one policy, but one of their sister branches in a different city use a different policy. If their answer is NO and ALL branches adhere to the same NATIONAL policy then we have ourselves a dilemma. This will prove that someone is a liar and I can ASSURE you it's not me.

The key is to DO YOUR OWN research, kind of like a new customer seeking a bank would do? Remember this advice many of you have given to OP complainers? Read what you're getting yourselves into? One or more of these banks on this list have branches here in Dallas, and they DO NOT post transactions in order of Largest-To-Smallest. Trust me, I know first hand because I DID DO my research (Bart). Don't believe me? Then try calling the Dallas branches for these National Banks on this VERY SHORT LIST - There's the answer.

Again I ask, where are the bank employee contributors to debunk me about this theory? How is it that bank employees can show up to ridicule a customer about their OD complaint but none show up to answer legitimate questions like this about policy? I know you're out there because I see your recent posts on different threads and I know you're always lurking and watching. You just CONVENIENTLY choose to pick your spots, like Mike and Bart. But again I say, your silence is still consent.

To Bart. If you were truly familiar with my ENTIRE posting history on VARIOUS threads, as is Truth Detector, Mike, Jim, Daphne and others, you would not use the words crap and fraud for my observations because the past results speak for themselves, as will this one here. I digress.

Wow, you guys are tough. I give you credit. You have backed me into a corner. As I've said many times before on many threads, I'm a stand up guy who gives credit where it's due, and I never take things personal. To Truth Detector, maybe your research was better than mine here on the ROR. So help me out. Why not provide some of those ROR links you mention for those banks for which I was unsure about, where the OP's complaint is specifically POSTING ORDER?

Ok. Truth Detector gave me a politically correct way to answer everyone's question. Why don't you call your local branches for these banks on this list and ask them is it possible for them to use one policy, but one of their sister branches in a different city use a different policy. If their answer is NO and ALL branches adhere to the same NATIONAL policy then we have ourselves a dilemma. This will prove that someone is a liar and I can ASSURE you it's not me.

The key is to DO YOUR OWN research, kind of like a new customer seeking a bank would do? Remember this advice many of you have given to OP complainers? Read what you're getting yourselves into? One or more of these banks on this list have branches here in Dallas, and they DO NOT post transactions in order of Largest-To-Smallest. Trust me, I know first hand because I DID DO my research (Bart). Don't believe me? Then try calling the Dallas branches for these National Banks on this VERY SHORT LIST - There's the answer.

Again I ask, where are the bank employee contributors to debunk me about this theory? How is it that bank employees can show up to ridicule a customer about their OD complaint but none show up to answer legitimate questions like this about policy? I know you're out there because I see your recent posts on different threads and I know you're always lurking and watching. You just CONVENIENTLY choose to pick your spots, like Mike and Bart. But again I say, your silence is still consent.

that you just spew crap out and state it is fact without any research, just a simpleton's guess, and then when called on your so-called "facts" you backpedal and cry that someone called you on it. You are a fraud and have been since you started posting here. You help NOBODY.

From your own computer, Edward, you stated, 'I'm not saying that these remaining banks DO NOT post in order by amount. I'm simply stating I have yet to see evidence that they do. I suspect some of them do, but I don't want to falsey accuse them without evidence.'

Therefore, you have absolutely no idea who does this and doesn't. You were simply making a assumption that SOMEONE must do things differently, but were doing so without a shred of evidence to back up your assertion.

Well, allow me to educate you. You listed: JPMorgan Chase, Citibank, Washington Mutual, Regions Bank, BB&T, HSBC, Keybank, and Capital One

From their own mouths, I have personally heard customer service reps and/or customers (who were charged the fees) from all of these companies save HSBC (who would not answer the question...odd, but telling) admit that they order transactions and do not post in the order that they receive them. Let me also add Compass Bank to this list of major banks who do this. If you had bothered to do a little research on ROR yourself, you might have found threds where most of these companies are reported for doing this very thing.

As we all have been telling you all along, it is not simply BOA or Wachovia that perform transactions this way. I have yet to find a major bank out there who does not maximize profits this way. Only my two local credit unions charge ONE overdraft fee - regardless of how many transactions followed - as long as the overdrafted amount is covered the same day.

"JPMorgan Chase, Citibank, Washington Mutual, Regions Bank, BB&T, HSBC, Keybank, and Capital One."

If you recall, these were the banks that you know of that did not post in descending dollar order. From ROR's I've seen, or experience with other institutions, we can reduce this to:

"Regions Bank, BB&T, and Keybank"

I will let others comment on these three; I am not familiar with any of these banks and therefore have not read their agreements. I would also add there is nothing out there that would prevent these institutions (assuming none of them utilizing the posting order objectionable to many) from switching to posting in descending dollar order at some point down the line. Hence, I still abide by my position of choosing a CU whenever possible.

Ok, People. From the FDIC's list of top national banks above, here are those banks from that list that I believe it's been well documented that THEY DO post transactions in order of amount, Largest-To-Smallest:

Bank Of America, Wachovia, Wells Fargo, SunTrust, US Bank, National City, and Fifth Third.

NOW - By elimination, those remaining banks on this list MIGHT NOT post transactions using this method without further proof. I have yet to see any evidence that they do so, either here on the ROR or through MY OWN research. Those banks, from the SAME LIST above are:

JPMorgan Chase, Citibank, Washington Mutual, Regions Bank, BB&T, HSBC, Keybank, and Capital One.

I'm not saying that these remaining banks DO NOT post in order by amount. I'm simply stating I have yet to see evidence that they do. I suspect some of them do, but I don't want to falsey accuse them without evidence. Keep in mind, this is just a partial list from the FDIC. Who knows there could be others further down the list. I just started from the top, to clarify my previous comments about TOP TIER NATIONAL banks.

So once again I ask, if anyone can bring forth proof that ALL of these banks on this partial list use this method, please do so. Employees, account holders, anyone. If anyone does post a rebutal that in fact one of these banks in question does use this method, FINE, but please refrain from calling me a FRAUD, questioning my credibility, and so on until ALL, I repeat, ALL of these banks on this list have been PROVEN to use this method. And remember silence is consent.

Otherwise my advice to Dennis, and anyone else stands. NOT ALL banks use this method that you detest. Shop around, review Terms and Conditions, and ask questions to help you make the right choice for a bank you like. Good Luck!

To make it look good and stick to the script every now then, let me repeat my earlier suggetion...To the OP, Dennis:

Not All Banks use the Largest-To-Smallest posting order that you have an issue with here. Let me also stipulate that in no way do I support or condone irresponsible financial behavior. But what I'm REPEATING here is that NOT ALL national banks use this method where they try and stick it to you for all they can, after each mistake you make.

Earlier, I just made this GENERAL statement. Then later, I provided this LIST that I was referring to, REPEATING once again, not all of the TOP TIER banks you see on THIS LIST practice this method.

Now. To Truth Detector, Mike, or ANYONE ELSE. Disprove Me! Prove that, in fact, every single bank on THIS LIST that I have provided DOES practice this method. I'm referring to bank employees, account holders, fellow customers, ANYONE. On a different thread, Truth Detector has already indicated that he knows first hand some of the banks on this list use this method. Ok? So what about the rest of them, HUH? Remember.....silence means consent!

Is that CLEAR ENOUGH for you?

Twice on 2 different threads I have politely asked you to give us the list of banks that do not implement posting policies to maximize profits. Twice you have dodged the question and failed to provide the information you claim to have.

Therefore, I have no other alternative but to proclaim your assertions as false and your credibility as shot. Don't come on these pages blasting some banks by saying that other large national banks don't utilize these methods to maximize profit - then give us some babbling nonsense about not wanting to provide the info.

At this point, I do not believe that this list exists - nor do I believe that banks would intentionally turn down guaranteed profits. Until you provide the 'list' of major banks who do not orders transactions, I have no choice but to declare you a fraud.

And FYI...to respond to your statement that I am admitting that banks order transactions to maximize profit, I don't ever remember saying that this wasn't their motive. But in all honesty, it DOESNT MATTER what their motives are. Don't spend more money than you have available, and you won't contribute to their profit margin. Guaranteed.

Mike, Let me clarify for you. The list you see IS NOT a list of banks that do not use the Largest-To-Smallest posting order. This list, as I stated in my previous post, is directly from the FDIC list of top national banks, ranked in order by total assets. I DID NOT say, that THESE are the banks that DO NOT use this procedure.

To keep my posts short and to the point, I didn't feel the need to fill in the blanks for all who have been following. But please re-read my earlier post on this very thread, titled "Not All Banks Use This Method'. Truth Detector wants me to simply come right out and name those banks that I claim DO NOT use this method.

Well, what I have done is provide this list of TOP TIER banks ranked by total assets, and I'm what I am stating is that SOME of the banks you see on THIS VERY SHORT list, DO NOT use this method. I hope this clarifies it for you.

And I've already posted many times, on many threads, the response to your advice about not getting bounced checks, Period. But you left out one important point. You failed to mention that if you follow this advice you won't get BOUNCED MORTGAGE checks. And thus, the banks will not be compelled to implement this new policy change that we're discussing.

You said the following:

'You than make three separate withdrawls, one for $100.00, another for $50.00, and anoher for $100.00. You should be left with $550.00. But if Wachovia sees a large some of $800.00 posted after all you previous three transactions, let's say the mortgage, Wachovias favorite" they will cover the $800.00 leaving the consumer with a -$250.00, and charging the consumer 3 overdraft payments.'


Either the mortgage was taken out using an automated wire you authorized to have happen monthly or you wrote a check for it. In either case, you know about the mortgage payment and when it comes out from your account, however if it was a wire as you seemed to suggest in your subsequent post, then you're a bigger fool because the wire would be pending and would clear before any other transaction first. You then withdrew money knowing that the mortgage payment would to clear your account and put you in an overdraft position. Don't come here whining, boo-hooing, and claim innocence and how the poor banks make too much money. You ripped yourself off.

I would consider closing your Wachovia account until you either (1) learn how to manage your money better by keeping a written check register of all your transactions and stop relying on an online system to determine the balance in your account, or (2) find a credit union. You may find they won't process in descending dollar order. You might find a bank that would do as Edward suggests, however the day will come that all banks will post checks in descending order first, then the fees, and then deposits last. That day is probably sooner than later. You may as well avoid the intermediary steps and just get to the end of the journey.

You claim to have first hand knowledge of banks that post in the order things come in, yet when asked to provifde such a list, you provide a lit of top national banks, first on the list is BOA, which we all know posts highest to lowest. You obviously have NO first hand knowledge are are simply making things up in your posts.

The long of the short of it is this (regardless of whether people want to hear it or not)...if you keep your check register including fees, auto debits and checks, and understand how "holds" work on your ATM card when you use it as a credit card, and don't spend money you don't have, you won't get bounced checks. Period.

First of all let me clarify, that I don't have first hand knowledge about the posting order policy of ALL of these banks, but some I do.

With that stipulation, I suggest you review two things for these banks on this list: (1) The amount of ROR's filed for each bank and (2) The LACK of ROR's filed SPECIFICALLY about Largest-To-Smallest posting order and OVERDRAFT FEES for some on this list.

Top National Banks (Directly from fdic.gov as of June 30, 2007)

1. Bank of America
2. JPMorgan Chase
3. Wachovia
4. Wells Fargo
5. Citibank
6. Washington Mutual
7. SunTrust
8. U.S. Bank
9. Regions Bank
10. BB&T
11. National City
12. HSBC
16. Keybank
23. Fifth Third
32. Chase
44. Capital One

If such a list exists, as you claim when you rail against banks you do not like, you have an obligation to provide us with banks that will not rip us off. To fail to do so drops your credibility to zero.

Once again, no one is asking you to endorse any banks. Simply provide the information you claim you have. I am genuinely interested to know who these banks are.

Truth Detector, you put me in a precarious position. As you and everyone else have seen in many OP's and rebuttals, MANY bank customers have expressed frustration, and disgust with the Largest-First posting policy by many banks. So logically, a recommendation to them would be to close their account with said bank and switch to one with policies to their liking.

However, as the ROR editors have indicated in the past to other posters, I don't want to come right out and say switch to 'John Doe bank. They're great!'. This makes me out to be a bank cheeleader with a biased agenda, trying to drum up business for a specific bank, either as a branch manager, employee, or loyal customer of said bank. Then, all this would do is cause others to do the same thing for their bank and create a back and forth, 'tit for tat', episode that deviates from unbiased input, recommendations, suggestions, and opinions.

So therefore, I try to remain unbiased, but at the same time, still try to offer a suggestion to the complaining OP. The suggestion is, switch to a bank with your liking, but make YOUR OWN choice.

You've already done some research and have indicated several National banks that do implement this policy. Simply keep going. If you look at any recent list with National banks ranked in terms of total assests, simply start from the top of that list. Those that you mention are at the top. I ASSURE you, you won't have to go to far down the list. I'm not talking about some whole in the wall banks no one has ever heard of. These are well known, TOP TIER, national banks.

Finally, by your own words in your previous post, you have indicated that these banks 'actively implement policies to maximize profit'. So you're conceding that this is one of the MAIN reasons for implementing such a policy, even at the expense of their customers, contrary to all of the garbage we hear about Mortgage payments. So now, YOU TOO are agreeing with all of the previous complaining OP's about TRUE MOTIVES behind this policy.

Once again, I know that banks are FOR PROFIT businesses. But is it good business to implement a policy that unfairly and adversely hurts thousands of YOUR CUSTOMERS? MOST IMPORTLANT, is it good business to LIE to YOUR CUSTOMERS, about the reason for the policy?

You stated, 'There are still a few National banks that post items in sections by transaction type, for example Deposits first, ATM's second, debit cards third, checks fourth, and so on.'

Maybe you would be so good as to provide us with a list of these mysterious national banks who do not actively implement policies to maximize profit. I know for a fact that Wells Fargo, Key, National City, BOA, Wachovia, Compass, and 5/3 are not among this list.

I do not ask for this list as a joke or to mock you. I would just like to know who they are. seriously.

Though most of them do these days, NOT ALL banks utilize the Largest-To-Smallest posting order. There are still a few National banks that post items in sections by transaction type, for example Deposits first, ATM's second, debit cards third, checks fourth, and so on. Deposits are usually always first and FEES are usually always last, but the order may vary for the other sections in between.

Then within each section they post items in the order they were TRANSACTED. Deposits, ATM's and Debits in order by day/time within their respective sections, and checks in order by check number within their section.

Do not be fooled into thinking that ALL banks practice the Largest first posting order.

Denis, seriously, you don't get it. You had an auto deduction scheduled for $800 and $800 in your account. The $800 hasn't been taken yet, but you have written that auto deduction in your check register right? So your balance in your register you keep said $0 right? So why did you take withdrawls?

It doesn't keep track of FUTURE auto payments, they can't do that until the payment is requested. If you kept your register up to date you would've realized that you had no money and not made withdrawls. No rip off here, you did it to yourself.

Wow, you sound like a very upset individual. I guess you must a be a Wachovia employee. I never mentioned that I wrote a check for $800.00
You asumed that I did. The $800.00 would be an automatic monthly deduction. You also mention that all banks follow this procedure, well it is still a rip off.
Dennis

i hate to say it but jims right because if you wrote a check for 800.00 and you withdrew 250.00 that would put you into overdraft because there's not enough to cover the 800.00 check.so that is what i call a mistake.don't feel bad about it there are plenty of times when i slipped up with them.you have to keep track of what you put into your account or you'll just be paying overdraft fees like your paying rent.so just let this be a lesson to you about banking.

Here is what you posted:

'Lets say you have $800.00 in your Wachovia account.
You than make three separate withdrawls, one for $100.00, another for $50.00, and anoher for $100.00. You should be left with $550.00. But if Wachovia sees a large some of $800.00 posted after all you previous three transactions, let's say the mortgage, Wachovias favorite" they will cover the $800.00 leaving the consumer with a -$250.00, and charging the consumer 3 overdraft payments.'

Here are the problems with what you posted:

1. First, you don't have $800 in your Wachovia account. If you wrote a check for your mortgage for $800 and their system says you have $800 in the bank, your real balance in your Wachovia account is $0.00. ZERO. In other words - you have no money to withdraw from the account.

2. Next, with your $0 dollar balance, you decided to make 3 withdrawls totaling $250.00. In essence, you took money from the bank that wasn't yours and that probably cost you $105.00 in NSF's. Now that is a high-interest loan!!

3. You cannot rely on what their system says your balance is because it does not take into account people you wrote checks to, but haven't remitted for payment.

4. You failed to keep a proper written record of your transactions - that is your responsibility, not the bank's.

Virtually every bank out there posts transactions in this order:

1. Checks or Debits to your account posted in descending order of $ amount.
2. NSF or other debit fees to your account.
3. Deposits or other credits to your account.

Because you failed to keep an accurate written listing of transactions, you lost yourself $105.00. You gave the bank your $105.00!! Is it worth your time to keep an additional $105.00 in your pocket? I would hope so, yet people won't do it. You ripped yourself off and victimized yourself. Next time, keep a written transaction of your account and you'll avoid losing money.