MCCOY MILLS FORD Unauthorized Credit Reports, Unethical Business Practices Fullerton California

We went to buy a used car at a dealer outside Houston, Tx this evening. We were paying with a personal check also... We were told that if we paid with a personal check, they had to check to make sure we were not terrorists and they had to run our (mine and my husbands) credit. I told them I did not want our credit ran for a cash transaction. The manager stated that if we had certified funds they only would check for us as not terrorists. But all banks are closed at 7pm on a Friday evening. (We called the bank to check.) to make a long story short- They ran our credit after all so we may leave with our "new" car. And they had me print out our bank balance online to "PROVE" to them we had the money to cover the check???? What is up with that????? They had no right to run our credit if I had to "PROVE" to them I had the funds in the bank anyway.... To top it off the manager asked how I survived on my income and the amount of our rent!! THAT IS NONE OF HIS BUSINESS!!!!! This was the most disappointing transaction I have ever made, no wonder why people hate car dealers!!!!

We went to buy a used car at a dealer outside Houston, Tx this evening. We were paying with a personal check also... We were told that if we paid with a personal check, they had to check to make sure we were not terrorists and they had to run our (mine and my husbands) credit. I told them I did not want our credit ran for a cash transaction. The manager stated that if we had certified funds they only would check for us as not terrorists. But all banks are closed at 7pm on a Friday evening. (We called the bank to check.) to make a long story short- They ran our credit after all so we may leave with our "new" car. And they had me print out our bank balance online to "PROVE" to them we had the money to cover the check???? What is up with that????? They had no right to run our credit if I had to "PROVE" to them I had the funds in the bank anyway.... To top it off the manager asked how I survived on my income and the amount of our rent!! THAT IS NONE OF HIS BUSINESS!!!!! This was the most disappointing transaction I have ever made, no wonder why people hate car dealers!!!!

We went to buy a used car at a dealer outside Houston, Tx this evening. We were paying with a personal check also... We were told that if we paid with a personal check, they had to check to make sure we were not terrorists and they had to run our (mine and my husbands) credit. I told them I did not want our credit ran for a cash transaction. The manager stated that if we had certified funds they only would check for us as not terrorists. But all banks are closed at 7pm on a Friday evening. (We called the bank to check.) to make a long story short- They ran our credit after all so we may leave with our "new" car. And they had me print out our bank balance online to "PROVE" to them we had the money to cover the check???? What is up with that????? They had no right to run our credit if I had to "PROVE" to them I had the funds in the bank anyway.... To top it off the manager asked how I survived on my income and the amount of our rent!! THAT IS NONE OF HIS BUSINESS!!!!! This was the most disappointing transaction I have ever made, no wonder why people hate car dealers!!!!

We went to buy a used car at a dealer outside Houston, Tx this evening. We were paying with a personal check also... We were told that if we paid with a personal check, they had to check to make sure we were not terrorists and they had to run our (mine and my husbands) credit. I told them I did not want our credit ran for a cash transaction. The manager stated that if we had certified funds they only would check for us as not terrorists. But all banks are closed at 7pm on a Friday evening. (We called the bank to check.) to make a long story short- They ran our credit after all so we may leave with our "new" car. And they had me print out our bank balance online to "PROVE" to them we had the money to cover the check???? What is up with that????? They had no right to run our credit if I had to "PROVE" to them I had the funds in the bank anyway.... To top it off the manager asked how I survived on my income and the amount of our rent!! THAT IS NONE OF HIS BUSINESS!!!!! This was the most disappointing transaction I have ever made, no wonder why people hate car dealers!!!!

If you don't provide your social security number to them, they can't run your credit. Simple as that.

If you don't provide your social security number to them, they can't run your credit. Simple as that.

If you don't provide your social security number to them, they can't run your credit. Simple as that.

If you don't provide your social security number to them, they can't run your credit. Simple as that.

It seems like everybody here has an opinion, but no one knows exactly what's required and what isn't.

My parents had the same problem as the original complainant describes. They wanted to buy a truck with a personal check. There were more than enough -- far more than enough -- funds in the bank to complete the purchase.

Even so, the dealership demanded that they disclose their social security number, and it required them to complete a credit application. They claimed this was "required" by some unidentified "anti-terrorist law."

This followed a parade of ridiculous suggestions by sales staff, such as "why don't you just go to an ATM and withdraw the $20K in cash?" and "why don't you just give us a PIN number so we can access your bank account here online, and see how much money you have in your account?"

(Are ya f-ing kidding me?)

Dealership staff demanded a completed credit application from my parents, AFTER contacting their bank and confirming with a bank vice president that their personal check absolutely would be honored.

What I read in the above report and the comments of others is a lot of opinion, without substantive references, to (a) what truly is required in connection with such a purchase, (b) what is unlawful for the dealership to demand -- whether by trick, artifice, bullying tactics or otherwise, and (c) what decent, honest folks can hope to achieve if they are wronged and if their privacy could be compromised by the (as always) unethical practices of car dealerships.

The reference by an obviously dealership-biased poster to --

http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/regulations/t11cons.pdf

-- is useless. That document says plainly, on its face, that it has to do with "credit applicants". The document says nothing -- I repeat nothing -- about people who buy with a personal check or cash.

One poster makes general reference to federal privacy laws that purchasers might claim under when a dealer does what it did in the original complainant's case. I'd like to know specifically what those laws are, but they are not cited.

Such cases bring up multiple issues that need to be broken down. I plan to get definitive answers to them all, and I will gladly share them with everybody who wants to know. Car dealers are ignorant bullies, every last one of them, and it's best for regular folks to know the law before they have to tolerate such people.

1. If I buy a car with a personal check, do I have to disclose my social security number in compliance with some "federal law"?

I believe the answer is no.

A Department of Justice official confirmed for me recently that there is no "anti-terrorist" law requiring a person to disclose his or her social security number to a car dealership in connection with a cash transaction.

He did say that if a transaction calls for the transfer of over $10,000.00 in cash, the the seller must complete and file a Form 8300 with the IRS concerning the transaction; Form 8300 calls for the disclosure of the buyer's social security number.

Be mindful, however, of the word "cash" above.

At present (January 14, 2008), you can go to --

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=148821,00.html

-- and see, plain as day, that "personal checks are not considered cash" for purposes of the Form 8300.

Therefore, if you buy a car with a personal check, the Form 8300 reporting requirement does not apply.

So what is the definitive answer? Is there some other "federal law" (as dealers claim, broadly and vaguely) that requires a SSN to be disclosed? It's incredibly difficult to prove a negative, but I think the answer leans heavily toward what the DOJ official told me: There is no such requirement in federal law.

Think about it. Say I'm a terrorist. I go to a dealership with a personal check and the dealer jumps on me to provide a social security number. I mean, that's what the dealer wussies claim they absolutely have to have, right?

I say, sure, no problem, got that. Here it is. I'm Bob Jones, and my social is 600-133-5555.

Well, fine, there is a Bob Jones, and his social most assuredly is 600-133-5555.

Problem is, I'm not Bob Jones.

My name is Ahmed.


So . . what has this "requirement" accomplished?

Nothing.


Listen up -- if some airhead claims there is a requirement that makes no sense, odds are very good that there is no such requirement, and the airhead wants you to do something that he d**n well knows you're not required to do.

Clearly, the onus here is on those who cater to the dealerships' view (i.e., "guys, we have to have it"). Fine. Cite to me a SPECIFIC SECTION of the United States Code, or cite to me a SPECIFIC PROVISION of the Code of Federal Regulations, that clear, plainly, and directly supports the proposition that a buyer must present a social security number in connection with a vehicle transaction if they are writing a personal check.

If you can't, you're not worthy of belief.

See, I don't care what your manager says. I don't care what your dealer's association says. I don't care if you can pull some fancy-sounding document out of your butt that Uncle Ernie wrote up on the Wang in Bumblefukk, Arkansas, that purports to say what you want reality to be.

What matters is what the law.

Me, I tend to lean heavily -- as I think most reasonable people would -- toward the word of an official of the Counterterrorism Unit of the United States Department of Justice -- mentioned above -- to wit, and quite simply, THERE IS NO SUCH LAW.



2. If I buy a car with a personal check, should a car dealership be entitled to access my credit report?

I say, flatly, absolutely, hell no.

The transaction is not a loan transaction; I am not asking for a loan, I don't want a loan, I don't even want to be offered a loan. Quite to the contrary, it is a simple transfer of a check for a car; when the check clears, the transaction is done. At that point, I have no further debtor-creditor relationship with the dealership.

It follows, beyond all dispute, that the dealer has no business -- absolutely none -- poking around in my credit report; the report is not relevant to the transaction. Not in the slightest. All that matters is whether my check is good.

But you idiot dealer types might say, "oh, but what if that slimy buyer runs off with my inventory, leaving me with a bad check? I gotta have access to his credit report, and I gotta have a credit application, and I gotta have a lien on that car -- just in case."

I say bulls*hit.

At the very most, make the buyer wait to take delivery after the check has been paid by the bank on which it was drawn.

Real simple.

In fact, if I was a buyer, I would say exactly that -- y'know what? I'll pick it up later after the check clears my bank. Sorry, no access to my credit report, as#hole.

Again, unless you can cite a statute or regulation that specifically addresses the issue -- and I mean one that's right on the money -- I say you have no authority -- none -- for this hocus-pocus strong-arming malarky to access someone's private credit information.

It's none of your d**n business.

On the other hand, a buyer can be damaged beyond measure if that same private information gets in the wrong hands. I don't care how "secure" you say you keep the information; I read all the time about security breaches and theft of stored personal data on systems that I'm sure are thousands of times more sophisticated than some schmuck dealers' ("oh, uh -- wep -- I keep 'em in a drawer in ma office.").

Right.

Indeed, in my parents' situation, someone at the dealership was using illegal narcotics. Would you be okay knowing your personal information was on the same premises as a drug user?

I say state and federal law needs to come down HARD on dealerships that engage this kind of nonsense. It is well past ridiculous.

Please, please, please -- if anybody knows about a litigated case, anywhere, in which a state or the federal government did come down on one of these turds, by all means, let me know. I want to make them cry and have bad dreams til they wet the bed at night.

There is no reason at all for a dealer to run someone's credit in a cash deal, unless...

1- They advise the customer they wish to do so in order to guage if they should or shouldn't take a personal check. In this instance they would not only have to explain this to the customer, they would have to get permission in writing to do so. Ultimately, it's easier just to call the bank and verify the check.

2- They offer a customer financing rather than paying true cash and the customer wants to know if they would qualify. Again, they're going to have to ask permission and get it in writing.

Anything short of that, there's just no reason at all to run someone's credit. In order to run someone through OFAC, however, they do need a social security number. In most states, your social security number is also required to be printed on a registration request, so again, they would need the number.

Running someone's credit without written permission isn't just unethical, it's illegal. As to possible fines, I honestly haven't a clue what they could be charged. I would think they could have their access to credit reporting agencies revoked, which would shortly make it so hard to do business they might as well have been fined a few hundred thousand. If a dealership has run your credit without written permission, simply contact the reporting agencies (Experian, Trans Union, and Equifax) and request the inquiry be removed. The reporting agencies at that point must contact the dealer to obtain copies of the written permission. If they are unable to provide it, I would imagine they could have issues with the credit agencies. My memory is a little hazy as to punishments for unauthorized inquiries, but I imagine it's got to be something relatively significant with all the identity theft going on these days.

There is no reason at all for a dealer to run someone's credit in a cash deal, unless...

1- They advise the customer they wish to do so in order to guage if they should or shouldn't take a personal check. In this instance they would not only have to explain this to the customer, they would have to get permission in writing to do so. Ultimately, it's easier just to call the bank and verify the check.

2- They offer a customer financing rather than paying true cash and the customer wants to know if they would qualify. Again, they're going to have to ask permission and get it in writing.

Anything short of that, there's just no reason at all to run someone's credit. In order to run someone through OFAC, however, they do need a social security number. In most states, your social security number is also required to be printed on a registration request, so again, they would need the number.

Running someone's credit without written permission isn't just unethical, it's illegal. As to possible fines, I honestly haven't a clue what they could be charged. I would think they could have their access to credit reporting agencies revoked, which would shortly make it so hard to do business they might as well have been fined a few hundred thousand. If a dealership has run your credit without written permission, simply contact the reporting agencies (Experian, Trans Union, and Equifax) and request the inquiry be removed. The reporting agencies at that point must contact the dealer to obtain copies of the written permission. If they are unable to provide it, I would imagine they could have issues with the credit agencies. My memory is a little hazy as to punishments for unauthorized inquiries, but I imagine it's got to be something relatively significant with all the identity theft going on these days.

I recently opened two new bank accounts and the bank employee explained to me that she had to check my ss# and my partner's ss# and personal info to make sure we could open an account. She did NOT pull our credit in order to accomplish this. I don't buy it anymore than anyone else does. And I agree. The dealership wanted the credit report in order to try to get the consumer to spend more money. Period.

Nowhere in that information does it indicate a requirement for a car dealer to obtain a customers SS# or request a credit report.

Furthermore, I paid cash for a car just last June, and all the dealer needed was my drivers license and proof of insurance.

I don't know what you are reading into this OFAC thing. It just is not there.

Here is the kicker..... I received notification from "Ford Motor Credit" regarding my recent application for credit AND there are inquiries on my credit reports. McCoy Mills also asked for a list of references along with the credit report. Can you honestly tell me they are interested in "National Security" and not in marketing?? There is so little integrity in the automotive industry that it boarders on criminal activity. I can only speak of my experiences and this one takes the cake so far. How in the heck are you going to convince me that by checking someone's credit you can tell if they are a terrorist? Are auto dealerships now secretly trained to scan for terrorists? What are they looking for? Several credit inquiries from "Al Quida's Bombs For Less" stores? If you have a low credit score you MUST be a terrorist? Too high a credit score MUST mean covert ops? Think of how ludicrous your statements are and how ignorant the dealership sounds.

Michael,if dealerships are required by law to find out if customer is in a terrorist database ,then so be it.Fair enough and no problem.I'm actually all for it.

I just have a couple of simple questions regardless.The last salesman I dealt with told me,Quote,"We just checked your credit. 822 is a very good score by the way.You are qualified.You can most definately buy a vehichle today.

They did this when I told them in advance it would be stricty a cash sale.Several times mind you.They got my credit score anyhow without telling me they were going to do so.What I said to them went in one ear and out the other apparently.My word had must have had zero meaning to them I guess.

Michael,I know nothing about legalities,but is that at least unethical or sneaky or something in your opinion?That was more than simply checking only my name,adress,DOB,and social for anti terrorism purposes isn't it?Or am I wrong.They never mentioned anything about checking a terrorist data base either.

One final question, dealerships did the same thing to me back in 1997 and 2000 when I looked at and eventually bought vehicles.This of course was before the 9/11 attacks and the terrorism hype.What was their reason and rational back then for getting my credit info without telling me ? What was thier rational 20 years ago? What will their rational be, say in 5,10 , 20 years from now? Thank you.

For those of you with the sarcastic responses regarding requirements for dealerships to ensure they are not doing business with terrorists, I submit for your review...

http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/regulations/t11cons.pdf

Quite clearly it is stated companies in the United States are required to ensure they are not doing business with a number of different countries, individuals involved in the distribution of weapons of mass destruction, and terrorists. Dealers are required to run a check through OFAC for EVERYONE purchasing a car, regardless of if you are paying cash or not. Your social security number will have to be given to a dealership if you wish to take a car home. Period. If you do not wish to give your information to the dealer, that is of course your perogative- just as it is the dealer's to refuse to do business with you.

The system dealers use now, or at least SHOULD use now, runs something very similar to a credit report, but does not create an inquiry on your actual credit nor does it access for thier review your credit standing. It simply checks your name, address, date of birth, and social against the FBI's database for those individuals with whom we are forbidden to sell cars. As cars have been used as weapons, ie Kansas City, the Dealer can be fined $100,000 and $100,000 per day until the car is recovered.

Quite simply, you'll have to give out your social if you want to buy a car, or the dealer run the risk of possibly selling to a terrorist.

I mean really, do you actually believe the reason the car dealer is running a person's credit is for national security. Do you actually believe ANY car dealer is not going to sell ANYONE a vehicle for good funds? What planet are you from? The only reason a car dealer is going to run a person's credit after he's been told the customer is going to pay cash/check/MO AND not to run the customer's credit is to see how much the customer is worth and to try and sell him an even MORE expensive vehicle. They can't help themselves. Say a customer comes in with $9000 in cash and wants to buy a vehicle for $9000 ONLY. The car guy figures he has the $9000 already, let's just see how much MORE we can get out of him. Maybe we'll get the $9000 as a down payment on a $30,000 vehicle. They can't help themselves. It's so rare anyone walks in with cash, they don't know WHAT to do. It's called upselling. Ever heard of the term "cash cow"? That's the reason car guys hate customers who walk in with cash or a check from another institution. It takes away one way the car guy can screw the customer. They hate dealing with people on the internet as well. Why do you think they keep their "internet sales" away from everyone else. I know a dealer who has his internet sales office in a mobile home on the back side of his dealership. Away from the walk-in customers. Same deal. Be smart people.

I mean really, do you actually believe the reason the car dealer is running a person's credit is for national security. Do you actually believe ANY car dealer is not going to sell ANYONE a vehicle for good funds? What planet are you from? The only reason a car dealer is going to run a person's credit after he's been told the customer is going to pay cash/check/MO AND not to run the customer's credit is to see how much the customer is worth and to try and sell him an even MORE expensive vehicle. They can't help themselves. Say a customer comes in with $9000 in cash and wants to buy a vehicle for $9000 ONLY. The car guy figures he has the $9000 already, let's just see how much MORE we can get out of him. Maybe we'll get the $9000 as a down payment on a $30,000 vehicle. They can't help themselves. It's so rare anyone walks in with cash, they don't know WHAT to do. It's called upselling. Ever heard of the term "cash cow"? That's the reason car guys hate customers who walk in with cash or a check from another institution. It takes away one way the car guy can screw the customer. They hate dealing with people on the internet as well. Why do you think they keep their "internet sales" away from everyone else. I know a dealer who has his internet sales office in a mobile home on the back side of his dealership. Away from the walk-in customers. Same deal. Be smart people.

The same stunt was pulled on me as well.Told the dealership, specifically ,several times in advance ,I would pay "Cash" ,as in hundred dollar bills,ONLY.Repeat,"ONLY" Told them this several times early on. They still did a credit check later regardless of the exact words I told them.Apparently the words and concerns of the customer mean little.As if they were dealing with the words of a 3 year old talking to them.(Their main concern being how much profit they might make on the possible deal,of course.)

To Rick ,the dealership shill,how the hell does a car dealership running a credit check on a potential buyer who wishes to pay cash Quote",(Protect Us From Terrorist Elements?)What the hell kind of logic is that? I suppose you have to justify it somehow,but jeez.Is that the best you can do? The logic,or lack of,does'nt seem to fit?





By your reasoning,everytime a person buys gas at the convienience store with cash,or groceries at the store with cash,or a pair of jeans or a TV at Walmart ,they should have a credit check run on them,especially if they pay cash.Gotta watch out for terrorists,you know.

To quote you again,it not only protects us from credit fraud,it protects us from terrorist elements". A cash sale?

Okay,whatever Rick.

There's been some real whoppers quoted from people vainly trying to justify the sleazy stunts of car dealerships ,and yours,congradulations, ranks right up there ,asnine justification that it is.And every dealership has a different reasoning than the other. Nice try.

Anyways,3 cheers to the sleazy car dealerships out there.Those who have now taken upon thier mighty shoulders the noble cause of fighting terrorism by running credit checks on people buying cars with cash.A very effective weapon on terrorists.Homeland Security should be envious.

I never considered the heroic patriotic twist to it all untill Rick set us straight.

It is called "Permissible Purpose" which the dealership clearly did NOT have to pull Gary's credit. Gary was clearly within his rights as a cash customer to keep HIS credit file PRIVATE.

The dealership is in violation of privacy act laws and has violated his agreement with the credit bureaus.

Gary is entitled to damages and should file a complaint with all credit bureaus and with the FTC. Then file a lawsuit for damages in federal court for the violations of your rights under federal law.

Thes scumbag car dealerships need to be held accountable and pay out a few multi million dollar lawsuits so they understand they are not above the law.

FYI...the ONLY information a dealer needs to release a vehicle to a cash customer is a valid driver's license and proof of insurance. Your SS# is NEVER required to be given to anyone unless you are applying for credit.

Pulling credit in no way protects us from terrorists! Rick, how did you come up with that?

PLEEEEAAAASSSSEEEEEE!

It is called "Permissible Purpose" which the dealership clearly did NOT have to pull Gary's credit. Gary was clearly within his rights as a cash customer to keep HIS credit file PRIVATE.

The dealership is in violation of privacy act laws and has violated his agreement with the credit bureaus.

Gary is entitled to damages and should file a complaint with all credit bureaus and with the FTC. Then file a lawsuit for damages in federal court for the violations of your rights under federal law.

Thes scumbag car dealerships need to be held accountable and pay out a few multi million dollar lawsuits so they understand they are not above the law.

FYI...the ONLY information a dealer needs to release a vehicle to a cash customer is a valid driver's license and proof of insurance. Your SS# is NEVER required to be given to anyone unless you are applying for credit.

Pulling credit in no way protects us from terrorists! Rick, how did you come up with that?

PLEEEEAAAASSSSEEEEEE!

It is called "Permissible Purpose" which the dealership clearly did NOT have to pull Gary's credit. Gary was clearly within his rights as a cash customer to keep HIS credit file PRIVATE.

The dealership is in violation of privacy act laws and has violated his agreement with the credit bureaus.

Gary is entitled to damages and should file a complaint with all credit bureaus and with the FTC. Then file a lawsuit for damages in federal court for the violations of your rights under federal law.

Thes scumbag car dealerships need to be held accountable and pay out a few multi million dollar lawsuits so they understand they are not above the law.

FYI...the ONLY information a dealer needs to release a vehicle to a cash customer is a valid driver's license and proof of insurance. Your SS# is NEVER required to be given to anyone unless you are applying for credit.

Pulling credit in no way protects us from terrorists! Rick, how did you come up with that?

PLEEEEAAAASSSSEEEEEE!

It is called "Permissible Purpose" which the dealership clearly did NOT have to pull Gary's credit. Gary was clearly within his rights as a cash customer to keep HIS credit file PRIVATE.

The dealership is in violation of privacy act laws and has violated his agreement with the credit bureaus.

Gary is entitled to damages and should file a complaint with all credit bureaus and with the FTC. Then file a lawsuit for damages in federal court for the violations of your rights under federal law.

Thes scumbag car dealerships need to be held accountable and pay out a few multi million dollar lawsuits so they understand they are not above the law.

FYI...the ONLY information a dealer needs to release a vehicle to a cash customer is a valid driver's license and proof of insurance. Your SS# is NEVER required to be given to anyone unless you are applying for credit.

Pulling credit in no way protects us from terrorists! Rick, how did you come up with that?

PLEEEEAAAASSSSEEEEEE!

Dealers have the ability to use a system to run credit reports which do NOT pull credit, but rather simply run the information through OFAC to check for matches with the FBI's database. This does not create an inquiry nor does it actually 'pull' someone's credit file, it simply tells the dealer if it is ok to sell them a car or not. If a car is sold to a known terrorist the fine, if memory serves, is $100,000 and $100,000 per day until the car is recovered.

Dealers are required to run individual's through OFAC, but they are not required to run credit to do so.

After 9/11 I would hope EVERY dealer would run EVERYONES credit...Especially if they are paying cash...It not only protects us all from credit fraud...it also protects us all from the terrorist elements...Stop being such a tight a*s...