fantasymakers Unprofessional, Uncivil, Arrogant, Uncommunicative, Misleading Advertising el cerrito, California

I'm the author of the original negative report, from my October 2009 experience at Fantasymakers.

I'm withdrawing all the negativity I expressed earlier. In the ten years since my visit, everything has changed, and FM is a very different place. For whatever reason, all the issues I raised have been addressed, the place now looks very attractive on a few levels, not the least of which is the superior-communication now offered or encouraged by the staff, BEFORE scheduling a real meeting. I hate to attribute this change for the better to the Covid situation, but it may be so.

Prospective visitors to FM should now completely DISREGARD the earlier negative report, and simply talk at length with staff beforehand, not forgetting common-sense - compensate them for their time accordingly if you have a substantial conversation! exciting

I hope also that its in the real of common sense, that a long conversation, or two, or more, BEFOREHAND, with a Dom of one's choice, is the ONLY way to go, to be ASSURED of a more intense, successful,  and exciting experience.

  ripoffstaff: the only choices on your pages for "updating" this report were "file a rebuttal" or "file a new report" - hence I chose to file this as a "rebuttal...

All of the "original report" below should be DISREGARDED now.

A reasonable person who interacts in good faith with a dungeon will be easily guided through the social customs therein. You do not need any special knowledge and no one will be offended if you are new, do not know what to do, etc. However, the "alternative" nature of the establishment is not an invitation to act in a totally unbridled fashion (unless you are into pony play ;) ).

I have never been an employee (or even friend of an employee) of Fantasymakers, but I am an independent pro domme in the area (have worked in other dungeons before) who looked up reviews of the local dungeons out of interest. I think the commenter has a mistaken idea-- to put it politely-- about what is customary interacting with a dungeon.

Professional playspaces do not typically do substantial sliding-scale fees (I have not discussed any fee system with FM; this is a comment based on other dungeons I have interacted with), and this is not a personal attack on the client who cannot afford to engage. Pro dommes really do love what they do but there must be some filter to require an investment from the client or there would be a substantial impact on "consumer" behavior in terms of attempting inappropriate behavior, not respecting appointments, etc-- compare to how animal adoption agencies report that charging even a nominal fee for adoption deters animal abusers from adopting because they have "nothing to lose".

We understand that not everyone is in stable financial circumstances in this economy, but I respectfully suggest that such persons seek out the many free social BDSM groups and events in the Bay Area where such persons they are welcome to seek compatible partners-- assuming their behavior is sufficiently tolerable to not get kicked out.

While individual dommes working at dungeons do sometimes have their own email addresses and respond at their leisure, it is not expected that a domme interact with a client outside of the playspace setting if she is not comfortable doing so or does not believe that the contact from him is in good faith-- or heck, if she doesn't feel like it! A domme is not your sub, and is not required to answer your calls/texts/emails ASAP like she's a minor and you're her father!

That is a highly mistaken approach to this power dynamic. Many people believe that sustaining such contact creates inappropriate expectations with SOME clients who cannot control their emotional needs regarding the extent of the relationship (ie she is not your IRL gf), thus, the traditional way to obtain contact with a domme who works for an establishment is through that establishment, and there is still no obligation to engage outside of an arranged play session or a reasonable prior consult (there is a huge problem with clients who call or email extensively trying to lure the women into extended contact so they can m********e over the call/email and never purchase any services. This happens literally every day, and that's why dommes are so scrutinous of excessive email contact. 6 emails in one day sounds excessive to me).

It is not customary for someone to do consultation DURING a paid session, as OP suggests-- that's why every dungeon has (a) separate consultation room/s and management to match you up with the appropriate practitioner. How would you ever arrange a session in the first place without having a prior consultation about your interests, limits, mutual expectations, etc?

Even as an independent I can say that this sort of incident (incorrect session time) is much more likely to happen with an inexperienced or addled independent sex worker than through an establishment with a reputation to protect. It is just not done as he describes. Believe it or not, I have actually *never* seen such issues arise or even be credibly alleged in a dungeon. These things are typically timed by mgmt and not subject to the whims of individual mistresses.

By the time you have started your session, you need to make sure you have a clear understanding of what will be taking place and that you have made appropriate use of your consultation proceedings. Things like repeatedly sending someone back to change outfits over and over for half an hour (I changed my mind, I want a schoolgirl instead! No, that's ugly, go put on a cheerleader uniform! I don't like that color, do you have any leather? etc.) then expecting that to not count as session time are not tolerated, and attempting to cycle through multiple providers in a session without the consent of the mistress (I have seen clients send back literally ALL of the providers in a dungeon in a row after ~5m with each-- if you want a group/multimistress session, please book it that way, this is not a buffet!) is considered rude. While women are flexible, try to cover these matters in consultation so everyone can begin a session prepared to enjoy it.

I have personally toured Fantasymakers and borne material witness to their screening process and information collected from clients, and it is not excessive or indiscreet/dangerous in the least. Most professional BDSM practitioners in general value discretion to the utmost, and there should be no reason to fear giving an established playspace your identification IF requested. I have been in the industry for over 10 years and never once have I seen an instance of a client, even outright abusive or fraudulent clients, having his personal information revealed by a dungeon.

That is just not how it is done in this scene. You would have to rise to the level of committing a violent felony in which case perhaps your information would be revealed to the police (that is why it is taken-- safety! I won't get into it but sex work can be VERY dangerous and I have seen kidnapping and even murder affect the persons or families of high-end workers before), but that's it.

Unfortunately, rarely, the public-facing and intense nature of professional BDSM attracts mentally unstable persons (I'm sorry, but it does happen sometimes even though most patrons are wonderful, kind, smart and respectful gentlemen whose company we greatly enjoy) who are so rejection-sensitive or out of touch with reality that they take normal business behavior (rather than the creation of an instant, serious bf/gf relationship outside of the playspace) deeply personally and, feeling humiliated, seek to "defend themselves" by initiating aggressive reviewing around the net or word-of-mouth campaigns, long after everyone else would prefer to move on from the unfortunate interaction. There are characteristic signs of these types of persons, and after reading the extensive review campaign this gentleman has undertaken in regards to FM around the internet, I'm sorry to say that OP strikes me as of this type.

 I have been frequenting Fantasy Makers off and on for over 15 years. My experience has been extremely consistent across the board. Not only are the people pleasant over the phone, they have been exceedingly pleasant in person. I have seen dozens of different women and they have been flirtatious, beautiful, and extremely fun. Never once have I had a negative experience and I have never been asked to leave. I have even developed friendships with a few of the women outside of the play house. Lorett has been nothing but kind and informational and she is a staple of the BDSM community. I can only assume that the original complaint arose out of a bad attitude or offensive behavior. By the looks of his posts, he is likely angry that he wasn't getting more than legally allowed. He seems to feel entitled.

Although I doubt that they will let you visit them without a $ committment,

I strongly suggest that males of all ages visit them AFTER reading my report,

and asking around the SF Bay area re The Citadel, Kink.com, etc. 

Let the buyer beware. (Remember they take a copy of your CDL)

I stand by assertions, which have never been rebutted. As I mentioned,

despite profuse apologies I offered for a presumed mstake on my part,

(changing the dom a few days before) they never respionded or rebutted

or much less apologized

If you are a woman, you are likely to be treated vey diffeently han a male.

In 4 decades + researching and experiencing "the scene",

I always had a good, even profound experience ELSEWHERE, and have not encountered

the level of arrogance, rudeness and lack of care, in this area of very sensiive work,

that I did at fantasymakers.

Contrary to Lorret's assertions, I am not hiding, and am easily reachable at this email for commnications:

doaust@gmail.com 

I keep getting drawn back into this unfortunate matter by emails from people who were almost frightened off by this person.  He posts repeatedly, in various places, under several names, but his style is unmistakeable.

My style is equally distinct.  I offer one name to our fetish-interested public, and one face.  I'm proud of the women who over the last 25 years have called themselves Fantasy Makers.  Most of the men and women who have visited the Playhouse as clients have behaved as gentlemen and ladies, and many have remained friends and supporters for years.  Deeds speak; words echo.

If you're nervous about meeting us, I understand.  Playing out intimate fantasies with a stranger is nervous-making.  If it helps, you can look at the reviews we've posted on our site, but you'd be right to say they're all positive, and that too is prejudicial.  We're not perfect -- sometimes we drop the ball -- but consent, communication and respect for others are the rule around here -- for everyone.

There's an old saying about the proof of the pudding. 

Fantasy Makers goes out of its way to suppress or deny the truth about their playspace. Or, simply, lie.r

The botttom line for prospective clients of fantasymakers is "let the buyer beware. Do your homework!

One may notice that they allow NO feedback by their clients on any of their fetlife or Tumblr pages, contrary to what Lorrett implies. 

I said what needed to be said in the first year or so after my visit there. This rebutall is my last word on the matter, unless someone wishes to contact me personally. I too reserve the freedom to tell people in the Scene just what my impressions were of fantatsymakers. Lorrett may say what she wants about me, but my persona is well-known among many in the scene, and L just makes a fool out of herself, by claiming I am rude or ungentlemanly.

I simply object to their bold exploitation of naive newbie males. However, I have also been told by pros that that

is a very common practice among the worst of the playspaces, and NOT of experieced pros. Pros actually WANT repeat business, and they point out to me that L's denials and lies are obviously counter-productive for her business. She should do the right thing, and rebut properly, and CHANGE her business practices.

There is one point which is clear, On which Lorrett and I seem to agree. I never expected, nor does fantasymakers provide any traditional sexual contact. That is assuredly _not_ why one would visit fantasymakers. And, they go to great lengths (undisclosed beforehand, as I mentioned) to prevent male ejaculation. But, _not_ so for their female clients.

Lorrett CAN not nor WILL not deny any of my specific allegations. I invite any _male_ to visit, preferably a newbie, and verify my assertions. Its as simple as that.

Lorretta chose to simply lie more, than rebut anything specific in my complaint:

1. 2-3 SHORT emails that I sent to a lady there, and one other, _before_ visiting, asking for another lady, does not constitute "inundating". Especially since my initial phone and email contact there was with a non-native english language speaker, and was not especially articulate.

2. I changed my mind, BEFORE visiting, and arranged a meeting with a more experienced entertainer there. Lorrett knows this, so I am mystified why she should lie so brazenly about that.

The day after my (shortchanged) 1-hour play session, I attempted to correspond with the lady who had been with me. She did not respond, and she should  and could certainly have done so, since it was evident that she was not interested in any "aftercare" the day before....and indeed had revealed all the rules to me ONLY after I arrived and paid in advance, as I have said in my complaint. 

3. I have NEVER discussed these matters with Lorrett's acolytes, as she claims. What good would it do? They are devoted to her, and turn a blind eye to the way she exploits men, esp. newbies.

4. I reiterate, test my assertions, if you are a man, and make an appointment beforehand, and discover, that they will NOT talk but very little beforehand, and that they will NOT reveal the rules of the house until AFTER one has paid the non-refundable fees.

I stand by all my assertions, so let any newbie male prospective customer  feel free to contact me either here or by ordinary email if they doubt me, and then let them attend fantasymakers, or, have someone they know do so, under the same conditions: a newbie male, who like me, had done insufficientt homework, and was ripe for exploitation.

EVERY single professional (female, and male) I have talked to, worldwide, about my experience there, the past 5 years+, is appalled, and assures me that that their business practices are unacceptable - even ridiculous - and very rare among encounters between pros and newbies. Worldwide.

The correct response from the lady I was with, AND Lorrett, in the days after the session, _should_ have been to simply explain and discuss their behaviour to me. They are scared to death of doing so.  However, in their line of work, common sense suggests that has never been done in the many thousands of years similar play has been exchanged for compensation.

I repeat, if you have the $ to gamble, test my assertions yourself. If possible.

If Lorrett will lie so straightforwardly as she did in her rebuttal, I suspect she will continue to do so.

Those who are interested and doubt any of my assertions should pose more questions to me. I am easy to find on the net.

I'm Lorrett.  I have served the Fantasy Makers (an association, not a traditional business) as a housemother/coordinator since 1990.  Thousands of people have visited the Playhouse, and many are regular visitors. We have an excellent reputation -- in fact, this "Sidney" person cited that when he started inundating a few of the ladies with e-mail in 2009.

The idea, it seemed, was to get us to correspond with him -- cheaper than paying for  session time.  Among his other thrifty ideas was to ask ladies to trade their time and skills for a piece of his art work.  Sadly, there were no takers.  He finally, in 2009, got an appointment with one of the ladies.

The lady made a special trip to the Playhouse to accommodate his schedule.  When he arrived, he brushed his appointment aside and demanded to see another woman, saying she was "more experienced" (remember, he knew nothing about any of us!) without so much as offering a small cancellation donation to the woman who'd accommodated him.  He then tried to micromanage the "more experienced" lady until she threatened to end the session.

This was followed by another barrage of e-mail, very hostile, some of it to me.  I tried to explain and mediate, and he said he "apologized" to the ladies --  then started bad-mouthing us to every social resource in town -- while continuing to beseige us with e-mail messages until we 86d him.  We stopped responding to him, but it only made him more aggressive.  He even confronted my Sensei at a public event and demanded that he "make Lorrett answer my e-mails"!

I dislike fights.  I've tried to turn the other cheek for 5 years, but he's still at it. The Ripoff report isn't the only site he's used for his cowardly attacks, using a number of names,  The things he says about our session rate, our "policies", our demanding identification, etc., etc. etc., are simply not true.  He's dishonest and dishonorable, and has made people nervous about meeting some lovely women.  If he wants my attention, he has it -- it's time for this to stop.

I think it's unfair, when so many people say good things about us, to take the word of this one person.  He uses other names, but his writing style is as distinct as my own.  If you have read this review, I invite you to look at our website.  Links to the FetLife page we "don't have"and  our Tunblr page are on the home page, and many of the ladies have social and/or professional web pages.  If you like the same things we do, I invite you to call and schedule a visit us.  We provide only safe and legal erotic fantasy -- we don't engage in any form of sexual contact with clients -- but we do everything else that's fun.  You can have all the orgasms you'd like, so long as you don't require our direct intervention.

Further, if you decide that "Sidney"s review is misleading, I would truly appreciate it if a few of you found a discreet way to post your own rebuttal, and say so.  The ladies I work for deserve better press.  Thanks much.