Mormons create unsafe condition in Manti, UT *REBUTTALS *EDitor's Comment *UPDATE ..dangerous situation continues June 2002

We all have things in our communities that the city participates in. It seems to me the this issue could have petitions signed and then perhaps a city VOTE? If it is decided to turn the lights off it should be posted in and around the event. And for emergencies be controlled by radio equipped personnel. Just a thought. Peace to all

Did you know that -HUGE- cities around high powered space telescopes in the US turn off their lights so astronomers can observe certain systems?

That some cities have even been re-fitted with low intensity lights of different spectrums so that they wont interfear with the telescopes!

What an Outrage! Entire cities required to comply to nerds behind telescopes...

...anyways this lights getting turned off
is a total outrage, oh my gosh...

like really....

...I'm seriouse....

uh-huh...

...right

How do you feel when you hear about companies who refuse to fix a known defective product, who figure it's cheaper in the long run to chance that only a few people will be injured or maimed by their product? The company figures that, of those injured, hardly anyone will sue. And even if they sue, the company will fight the suit, and maybe pay out ten years later, if you don't die first from your injury. They figure it's cheaper to do that than it is to do the right thing, which is fix the product before anyone is hurt. While I can understand the profit/loss side of the equation, I feel it's evil for companies to play this game with your life and my life.



But it's especially evil when money isn't supposed to be a part of the equation - like when churches do it. (Like, how do you feel about the recent cover-ups inside the Catholic church?) And that brings me to this update.



I just returned from Manti UT, a predominately (98% ?) Mormon town, where the so-called "Mormon Miracle Pageant" is held annually. (The pageant is a highly redacted version of the history of Joseph Smith, the first President and founder of the Mormon religion. It shows only one side of him.)



While the pageant itself is held on private property, The Mormon Church applies for a permit to close two adjacent streets to vehicular traffic so that patrons can walk to Church property safely. But there's more than that to the permit, and that brings me to the problem. The problem I wrote about last year continues this year, despite warnings to the Manti City government of the danger they put citizens in. The problem is that once the pageant starts, the City streetlights (run by the City Municipal Power company) are extinguished, for the sole purpose of making the pageant more appealing.



It's not like the Manti City government doesn't know about this danger. Below is a letter sent to the Manti City government, which is part of the public record. I was told last year that "no one has been hurt so far." Also, for those of you in denial, you can obtain a copy of the Pageant Permit from the City Recorder, which now clearly states that a City employee is to control the streetlights during the pageant - so, yes, we know the City is doing it, at the behest of The Church. Considering the number of people who attend the pageant (10,000), this is extremely dangerous. Further, suppose there's some type of emergency, where the crowd panics and stampedes out of the area? What mayhem there will be as they trample each other in the dark? Or is the City, like some evil company, figuring this will probably never happen, or if someone is hurt, the City will just fight it out in court? Better the City should Choose The Right, and leave the streetlights on.



Finally, I appreciate the rebuttal from one fellow who had the insight to note that we do not live in an Islamic country, where the whims of the predominant religion dictate how things are run. We have this document called "The Constitution" (you ought to read it some time) and this concept of Law, which so far, have kept us from becoming like an Islamic country. But apparently, some of you would be happy if The Church cut off the heads of the infidels or let them trip in the dark and break a bone. As long as "Allah" (or is that Joseph?) is praised . . .



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



There is a public health and safety issue in the City of Manti that has come to my attention to which I would like to make you formally aware, and which I believe warrants action by the City.



I've been attending the Mormon Miracle Pageant in Manti for the past few years. During those years, and specifically during the 2001 Pageant, the streetlights on the two streets to the west and south of Temple Hill have been turned off during the Pageant performance proper. (That is, the streetlights are on as usual until the Pageant performance starts. Then, the instant the pageant starts, the lights are turned off at about 9:30 p.m. and not turned on again until the performance is over, about 11 p.m. The two streets in question are the two streets that are closed to vehicular traffic during the pageant - 4th North and 1st East, I believe.) I understand these street lights are part of Manti City's system, are Manti City property, and under control of Manti's Municipal Power Company.



I write because of the public health and safety hazard created when the lights are turned off. Streetlights are installed for the public's safety and well being. When those lights are turned off, a dangerous situation is created. There are thousands of people in attendance at the Pageant, and it's hazardous for those streets to be dark, especially considering the high pedestrian traffic. Someone may well be injured as a result of the street lights being turned off.



I've been told informally that the City knows nothing about these outages. (Although it's hard to imagine that none of the City Council members have ever attended the Pageant and noticed this hazard.). Based on a consistent history of these outages during the Pageant, and because no vandalism is the cause of the lights being turned off year after year during the Pageant proper, it is clear that someone affiliated with the City, who has access to City Electrical Property, must be involved in turning off the lights. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that there is an "Assumption of Risk" here.



Based on City Council minutes from last year, I presume the City Council will again be discussing plans for the Pageant this April. I urge you to review this hazardous situation and take pains to ensure that the city streetlights remain on during the two weeks of the pageant, just as they are the other 50 weeks of the year.

Dear Mr. Magedson,



I fully understand what you are saying. I have as well witnessed Mormons use and manipulate the system for their or their churches benefit. I do not necessarily believe there is a church-sponsored conspiracy, but instead a member-sponsored conspiracy and it's one that is not necessarily agreed upon.



They show favoritism to those of same faith, and that is something you will find world-wide. You'll find Baptists and Methodists doing it in the south, Catholics doing it in NYC, hell you'll find it everywhere.



I know this for a fact, from the Mormon sandpoint, as I have experienced some very bad sh*t from Mormons when I pulled out of the

church.

Thank you for your comments. On a personal level, this EDitor was one of those who of the opinion that the Mormon Church was part of some major conspiracy to control and take over. I believed that when Mormon mayors, city councilmen and businessmen got together it was to conspire to do evil against non-members. In fact, this is the experience that I have witnessed.



What I want to say now is that my judgement was clouded by emotion. I have since observed good-hearted Mormons and know that these "prominent" Mormons are just not good people and give their religion a bad name. At first, I felt bad about the bad things I said about these people, but after speaking with a Mormon on Rip-off Report Staff and interacting with many other Mormons over the last 2 years, I realize that we need to speak out about the deeds, perhaps the character of the people, but not the religion.



I have come to realize through the example of a few Mormons that they do much good, and that it is because of the inspiration of their religion. The Mormon Church teaches its people to do good, to be good citizens and have strong families. The people have a long way to go.



In fact, our own Mormon staff member has encouraged me to pursue corruption, even when it has led us to Mormons. Our investigations have identified some trends among Mormons that might even surprise their leaders. I share this to help them, not to criticize them.



They have problem with certain types of crimes. In fact, the Mesa Arizona Police Department, headed by a (woman) Mormon Chief, has given special priviledge to Mormon criminals. For example, their Special Sex Crimes unit hides Mormons from the criminal justice system who are involved in incest. Mostly Mormons with money and power and when the offenders Bishop comes to their rescue, they are released!



Nevertheless, this is no reflection on the beliefs and teaching of the religion, but rather the imperfection of their people. I apologize for the harshness of my previous statements about the Mormon Church but not the people. Let us all be sure to make that distinction.



The comments I speak of are on this web site and www.MesaAzCorruptionReport.com



ED Magedson

EDitor@RipoffReport.com

It is a commonly held belief that anything that goes bad in Utah is the work of the Mormons or that it's some kind of a Mormon conspiracy. Before one considers that, I asked they take a few moments to consider the facts of the issue.



What is the issue? Who is involved? Who is REALLY involved?



Now consider this- in every church you encounter you will find both good people and bad people. Though in churches such as Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons, the diference will be far greater. And in these particular churches it is so different because of the mode of operation (MO - modus operandi) and authority standards. More often than not it is the authority standards that lead to ecclesiastical malpractice.



In such cases it is not necessarily the church itself that is responsible, but the individual that initiated the situation. In these cases one will find individuals that make statements or actions that are at best questionable, and then justify these statements or actions by quoting either the church rule book, church standard operating procedures, or even the religious book of the individual's choice. It is through this that the Words of God, the Words of Jesus or the words of whomever the deity is the individual believes in, is often manipulated and reworded to fit the individual beliefs of the individual, and this is in turn mistaken as statements or actions of the individual's church.



In such cases it is best to contact the church (in writing is generally better) in question and ask them if that is where they stand. Tell them the specifics and give date, places and names, and if at all possible be sure to provide witnesses. No church that I know of appreciates it when its clergy or congregation misinforms the public or molests the image of the church by inappropriate statements and/or behavior.



In this particular case, the best action to have taken was not contacting the city attorney, but instead writing a letter to the editor and providing a copy of the letter to the mayor and the city council. When you contact the city attorney, they don't know what to do as this is outside their realm of expertise and in some cases, their jurisdiction. Instead, contacting the mayor and city council would have most likely produced a far more appropriate response, one I feel you would have appreciated.



I make this response and these suggestions not as a representative of the Mormon church, but as a former member/Elder.



Take care and God bless,

Well my wife and I are going to the pageant this year. So I will let you all know whether or not the State of Utah, The City of Manti or indeed the city electrican are involved in the "Mormon Conspiracy". I am going to see the pageant. I am going to see the testimony of the Church. I am going to see how the Lord Jesus Christ came to the America's and taught the people of the Americas the True Gospel.



I am disappointed in the various responses here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion's, however, attacking the Church isn't the right thing to do.



The Church believes that everyone should read the Book of Mormon and read for themselves if the Gospel is true. Maybe everyone who reads this should go to http://www.mormon.org and see for themselves.



Maybe, just maybe.... It will lighten your pathway... to the truth. God Bless you who ever you are. I mean it. God Bless you. And I will let you all know if the area is blackened to show the Light of Jesus Christ's reserrection scene.



P.S. The Temple at Manti is beautiful...

I thought a religious experiences was suppose to be great fun-I can understand the complaint of the original message but the rebuttal seems ignorant. I myself a Mormon was appalled by reading this small minded rant from obviously a non practicing Mormon.



We must respect other's needs, just because we do not agree doesn't mean we can act like ignorant 10 year olds such as "Michael angelo" has. Now shutting down the lights for a religious matter is not good for governing of a town.



Seperation of church and state-if you want a town ran by religion look to the middle east and see how that has turned out. and I applaud the person with the original message.



I'm sure if Michael catches this rebuttal they will no doubt respond in a manner of a bulling 10 year old swiping back at someone who hurt their pride. I hope you reply with a well thought out rebuttal good day to both of you and wish you both well...

Mormons create unsafe condition in Manti, UT *REBUTTALS (#5476)



They filed the following rebuttal to the above Rip-Off Report:



Their email: bondjedi@hotmail.com

Their name: Michael Angelo

Their relationship to the company: Supporter



Rebuttal:

Why did you call the City Attorney if the street lights went out? That's like calling the Parks department to take care of a traffic ticket.



I'm assuming you live in Manti, and also assuming you're a gentile (in the LDS sense of the word). Here's some news for you: there is no grand Mormon conspiracy to take over Utah... THE LDS HAS CONTROL AND HAS HAD IT FOR THE LAST 100+ YEARS!!!!!!



Everyone in town (except for you) was at the dumb pageant anyways. I don't know who would have got hurt.



Advice for anyone who has it in for Mormons: move the hell away from Utah, Arizona, Wyoming, and Idaho. Unless you invade the states with an army of Catholics and start multiplying like jackrabbits, you're not getting anywhere.

EDitor's Suggestion:::::






You should also check out MesaAZcorruptionReport.com



You should also check out MesaAZcorruptionReport.com

This email is a rebuttal to RipOff #5476.

It was sent by The Saint at MormonAssault@badbusinessbureau.com.



Mormons create unsafe condition in Manti, UT *REBUTTAL (#5476)



They filed the following rebuttal to the above Rip-Off Report:



Their email: MormonAssault@badbusinessbureau.com

Their name: The Saint



Their relationship to the above report: Original filer of the above Rip-off Report



Rebuttal:

As I said in the original Rip-Off report, I talked to the City attorney, who claimed he had no knowledge the city street

lights would be turned off during the pageant. He claimed it

was not discussed in City Council meetings. Nor did

he think they could be turned off manually, as they

are programmed. The City Electrician was conveniently

out of town - or so we were told - so I could not find out

from him who is controlling the lights.



The fact that the city street lights are on before the pageant starts, then are shut off just as the show begins, and are turned back on again as soon as the pageant is over, indicates that someone is purposely messing with the lights, at the same time, every year. Since it is the Church that benefits directly from the lights being turned off during the pageant, it's reasonable to assume it is someone in the Church who is messing with city property and turning off the lights.



Even members of the Church should know that this is not right. Try to apply the Golden Rule: If you were not a member of the Church, were there in Manti when the city street lights were off

during the pageant, slipped and fell in the pitch black street,

wouldn't you expect there to be some liability, if not criminal

charges, brought against whomever turned off the street lights which factored in your accident? There is a reason why the lights were installed on main street. Saftey, not for looks.



As for the pageant itself - it was so full of revisionist history (you would say "embellished," I would say "lies"), it was really a lousy testimony for the Church. (Like, they conveniently forgot the part which is documented in the History of the Church, Vol 6, Chpt 34 about Joseph Smith shooting back from the Carthage Jail, killing two people and wounding a third. Hardly a martyr's death ... but you believe what you want.)

This email is a rebuttal to RipOff #5476.

It was sent by @Rebuttal_Name@ at julie@hotmail.com.



Mormons create unsafe condition in Manti, UT (#5476)



They filed the following rebuttal to the above Rip-Off Report:



Their email: julie@hotmail.com

Their relationship to the company: Devotee



Rebuttal:

The "city" of Manti is a tiny community with a population of a few hundred. There are very few lights in the city to turn off (only on the main road). How do you know it is the "Mormons" turning off the lights?



Perhaps it is the decision of the city of Manti to turn their lights off to conserve energy in this era of skyrocketing electricity bills.



I'm also not sure what hazzard turning off the lights presents, since all of the streets in Manti except for the main street don't have any lights to begin with.



By the way, how was the pageant?