Wilkes-Barre General Hospital PREGNANT WOMEN HAVE RIGHTS! they turned away a PREGNANT woman because she DID NOT want to have a cesarean Wilkes Barre Pennsylvania

I wasn't going to respond to this because I think 99% of these responses are just ridiculous and full of hate. I work in the medical field (I'm a nurse), and I was taught from day one of nursing school to respect my patients' concerns and wishes. Sure, we may be more educated in recommending the best treatment for our patients, but ultimately, it is the patient's decision to either accept or reject treatment. Which this woman did...exercise her right to do so. She checked herself out of the hospital. No one turned her away.

I will admit, there are some doctors and nurses who don't think this way and who lack compassion. I've had to deal with some of them myself, as both a patient and as a coworker. But it's just not right to categorize everyone who is a healthcare worker as slave, idiot, moron, etc etc because of some bad experiences and unprofessionalism others may have received. I'm not rich. I make good money, but I work long hours for it. I'm not complaining, it is what I chose to do. I didn't go to school and enter into this field for the money: I did it because I care about people, and I enjoy helping others.

There are two sides to every story. I feel both parties were wrong in this case. Yes, it is a woman's choice to have her own birth plan. However, if there are complications, existing or possible during birth, wouldn't a woman who is concerned for her child's health want to at least take into consideration the plan of action instead of getting pissed off and checking out AMA...and then blaming the medical staff? The doctor was completely wrong in seeking an order to obtain custody of the child, though...unless there was concrete evidence that a natural birth would have endangered the child's health. I don't know the real story here, and neither do any of you. I'm not making any judgements.

Doctors and nurses are not gods. We are not magic healers. Nobody knows everything about the human body. There are so many many things that are yet undiscovered. Why do you think we are required to do so many continuing education units to maintain our licenses? I'm constantly downloading new information into my PalmPilot and using it at work because I want to be informed about everything I do. And I've seen most of my coworkers doing the same. I've also seen some of my coworkers doing some very kind things for patients and absolutely going over the top.

I am a mom of 3 and each of my children's births were extremely different to say the least.

Child #1 was born after an emergency c-section after 20 hours of labor. My water had broke some 16 hours before giving birth, and my GYN was beginning to worry about "dry birth", and deemed a c-section necessary after my baby girl went into fetal distress. My baby was small...4 pounds 5 ounces, but healthy.

Child #2 was delivered by the same GYN at the same hospital. The doctor ruptured the membrane, and the the whole process from being admitted to giving birth was very short, 4 hours or so. I received no drugs this time around and gave birth vaginally to a 8 pound 7 ounce son.

It was my third and last child which was the unbelieveable delivery... I had gone into labor on the 21st, and had known that the birth of this child was eminent. I went to the same hospital in which I had given birth to both of my older children. My GYN was on vacation, but had another doctor that I heard of covering for him. I had received excellent care throughout my pregnancy, but had known that I may possibly have to undergo another c-section this time around because for whatever reason, I developed toxemia during this pregnancy. We remained at the hospital some 18 hours, after which I was sent home because I wasn't having labor progress the way it should.

I had taken to my bed and slept for awhile once we got back home, for I was already exhausted. My better half got called to take care of a small situation at work (just down the street), and made sure that I had important phone numbers should something happen during the hour or so he would be gone, to call him, 911 and several others if I could. He was gone about 45 minutes when I felt the need to use the bathroom. I stood up and my water broke. I knew it was time...what I didn't know was that by the time I reached the bathroom, the baby's head was crowning. I heard the door open, and started yelling for him to call 911, that I am going to have this baby. Equipped with a cordless phone, he calls 911 and tells the call center we are having a baby, and he needs someone here. Then runs to our only bathroom upstairs to find me. He is still on the phone with 911 which has informed him that it will take approximately 6 minutes to get anyone out to the house as they are waiting for the ambulance to return and it would take longer than that to send one from another ward. He tells the call center, the baby's head is coming. And there on that day, my youngest child was born, in that bathroom, delivered by her father, while 911 is telling him what to do. She formed an incredible bond with him, as his were the first hands which ever touched her. The ambulance didn't arrive until she had already been born. We were taken to the hospital, and there they weighed and measured our new daughter. She was not my biggest baby but not the smallest either, weighing in at 5 pounds 14 oz. Every doctor and nurse in the maternity ward came in to see us and the baby born at home, since it is just about unheard of today. When her birth certificate was issued, it is simply number 52. That is because she wasn't born in a hospital, but in a private residence and because we live in a suburb of a big city, there is no hospital there, but there are six of them in the city. She was perfect and healthy, and got to go home with dad the following morning. Me, because of the toxemia, and having the baby come the way she did, well I had to stay in the hospital some 14 days. My blood pressure wouldn't go down, and my GYN who came to this other hospital where we were sent, and said that the reason they were keeping me was because I was at stroke risk and that had I had been at the hospital when my water broke, they could have taken care of that risk from the toxemia there and then, and I could have avoided the 14 day stay and been at home enjoying my beautiful new daughter.

Amber's doctor was right in wanting the C-section preformed. She may have been like me and had a very unnecessary hospital stay. She was lucky that she found a hospital who wanted to do it "her" way, and even luckier both she and her baby turned out just fine.

You'd have to be a god damned idiot to think a doctor is looking out for the best interests of patients.

Like most people these days, a doctor is looking out for their own needs first. Next are the needs of the care facility. The patient always comes last.

The first thing a doctor is looking to do is observe the medical standards they have been taught. In this case, the baby was large. The doctors figured it was too big to risk a normal delivery.

So, they decided to cut it out to be on the safe side. The hell with the patient. All that mattered is the needs of the doctor. They wanted to keep their risks to a minimum. It safer to cut a big baby out.

Obviously, the doctors don't give a d**n about what any patient wants. All they are interested in is their own risk. They play it safe for their career and their malpractice insurance provider.

The patient has no say in the matter.

Drugs work the same way. You see, doctors get lots of free stuff by pushing expensive pills on people.

Tell me, what do you think really matters to the doctor? Keeping all the free s**t he gets from the pharmaceutical companies? Or, you, some dumb f**k patient?

Like most people, the doctor is interested in keeping his supply of free trash coming. So, that means you get a prescription for the latest pill he's been ordered to sell.

In this case, the baby was delivered normally. Big or not, it squeezed out.

The mother accepted the risks that came with her delivery. She knew what she wanted. I applaud her for standing up for herself against a bunch of d**n crooks in the medical profession.

These days, the hippocratic oath has been replaced by the hypocritical oath.

I am from Wilkes Barre, Pa. I am not going to make any kind of bad or good comments about doctors or about any authors of any post on this subject. I just wanted to let the facts be known about the incident.

The pregnant women was not turned away. She left 2 hospitals that night, by her own free will. I like General Hosp and I do not think it is fair to put them on the spot here. Wilkes- Barre General was the 2nd hosp she went to that night. She went to Mercy Hospital 1st and they did an utrasound and it showed the baby weighed above 11 lbs and the doctors and the hosp felt a c-section was best because the baby was big. She left Mercy Hosp and then went to General Hosp (those 2 hospital are about 5 mins away from each other). They also did a ultra-sound and also said the baby was big. They felt a c-section was best for both the mother and child. Amber checked her self out of both hospitals (against both hospitals advice)then she drove to Scranton (about 20-30 mins away) and gave birth on Thursady (2 days later).

Please read this section from our local paper:

"While she was in labor Tuesday night, Amber Marlowe, Academy Street, Plymouth, said she spent hours defending her right to deliver her
baby vaginally.

She and her husband, John, drove to three different hospitals before she found a doctor who would respect her wishes.

"It was very upsetting," stated Marlow, who gave birth vaginally to a healthy baby girl Thursday morning in Moses Taylor Hospital, Scranton. "All this just because I didn't want an operation."

The real women are the women in those so called "dirt" countries who have natural labor, multiple times, without any epidural... THOSE ARE REAL WOMEN! And not everyone in those countries are POOR... just smarter. Look at their children who came into this county to become sucessful doctors, financial analysts and engineers..............

You're right, ignorance does kill, and doctors like you are doing a real good job of it. Go ahead and ignore your patients' requests because YOU know what's best for them and the hospital.

People in the medical profession are SLAVES and you always will be. You do nothing but hide behind your credentials and so called "intelligent" opinions.

You expect us to feel sorry for you because you're on your feet 24 hours a day... what about the rest of us who work just as hard and just as long? We don't go crying and expect pity. You DESERVE our gratitude? I spit on that notion. You're not angels... like you perceive yourselves to be.

No wonder you're low on registered nurses! What's the matter?

Nice job of being the masterminds of being the "POOREST RICH" people in this country. Keep up the good work!

You know WHY you're the "poorest rich" profession? Because you'll never understand how millionaires and billionaires know how to keep and please their clients, fans, and customers.

Why do you think you are always on the defensive? Why is it that there are MORE bad medical reports coming up than there are bad reports on top firms?

Keep hiding behind your credentials. You're cold, ruthless people who continuously fight about ethics and LIE.

You've proved to me that the medical profession can be the most COWARDLY profession

Atleast in business, people do more than look at credentials... they do background checks and thorough interviews, way better than hospitals ... THEY LOOK AT WHAT'S HIDING BEHIND THOSE PERSONALITIES... before hiring people who don't know how to do business, respect others, and keep their clients. A B.S. IN BIOLOGY ISN'T ENOUGH IN THE REAL WORLD!

In fact, I've been coming across SEVERAL resumes where DOCTORS QUIT their jobs to go into MONEY-MAKING jobs. Granted, those idiot doctors did the worst at any business development and made the worst revenue out of everyone else... even worse than people who just had a liberal arts or highschool education.

And look at your medical workers... "I may not speak proper English, I may have graduated from community college or came from another country, but I have a SCIENCE DEGREE!" Look at who you hire to assist you... OF COURSE I DON'T TRUST YOU TO CUT ME OPEN!

Silberberg could be a nurse for all we know. Does it matter? I come from a family of nurses, professors and doctors and a variety of other highly regarded professions. All I heard, growing up, were stories that went on in the daily lives of people in hospitals, nursing homes, etc. at gatherings and at home. I am FULLY aware of the mistakes and bad decisions that medical workers make. I know what's being whispered behind patients' backs and their families' backs, too.

You know, you doctors might as well be politicians... you're good at LYING, even to your own families, and fighting for BS. Just like the president said, "He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons - which pose a threat to the United States, our citizens and our friends and allies."

He thinks that because he's the president he has a right to control and impose a war against another country. I see that doctors and other medical workers have the same mentality. But I guess your excuse would be that he "freed" a nation. Now look at how hated the president is.

Like I said, keep up the good work of being the masterminds to being the "poorest rich" profession.... you're nothing but SLAVES to the "poorest rich" profession.

You are becoming the most hated profession. Like I said, what's up with the low recruitment of registered nurses?? Hey, maybe people don't WANT to work for doctors, either.

Nursing is practically a SLAVE job. No wonder you have so many bad medical workers. Had to STOOP to hiring street trash? YOU THINK I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE MISTAKES YOU MAKE...? DON'T COVER IT UP.... YOU SHOULD REALIZE HOW YOUR "INTELLIGENCE" LOOKS IN FRONT OF OTHERS.

MEDICAL INDUSTRY = deceptive, midleading, very unresponsive, always getting the run-around, false promises.

The only credit the medical industry should get is not only for always being on the defensive with your manipulations, but simply... OVERPOPULATION. That's all you did right and even that has backfired, now hasn't it.

The real heroes are the doctors who LISTEN to their patients and these patients' intuitions. The patients are filled with fear, and you people are nothing but MONSTERS at times. Not all of us are asking for JUST a cure... we're not robots you can just fix! Alot of you doctors are doing a real bad job of being saviors.

Old news... the hospital is YOUR town and YOU decide who lives or dies, right? You say, "LIE DOWN SO I CAN CUT YOU OPEN!" ... and we lie there while you dilute our blood with drugs and stick your instruments in our organs.

Only GOD heals... not you heathens.

Tell me something... when you medical workers read these stories of women... these mothers who cry out... do you feel it? Or are you going to die not knowing that you were never forgiven by those you "helped". They can forgive, but these people die with their memories. How does it feel to know that you're a part of that terrible memory? What goes around, comes around. I believe in bad karma, and so should those medical workers who made these women cry. Just know, that while being in your profession... you're on the borderline of playing God.

I will NEVER forgive medical workers who brought people like me pain OR anguish in this world. You're not dealing with bodies, you're dealing with human hearts.

In my book, the greatest sin is to hurt a future mother.

Read as many articles as I could find regarding this case.

First of all, Lisa... my comment regarding mortality rates was meant to be taken in relative perspective... I am quite aware of the difference in population, I assumed all would realize I meant relative to the population our mortality rate is still lower. Apparently my assumption was wrong, so let that be clarified. Also, my being a wife of doctor would not make me more blind to the situations doctors face... it would make me more aware, as I am privy to the conversations made outside of the office and earshot of patients and family. I hear what they REALLY think and all I've spoken to would rather avoid the c-section whenever possible. Maybe I live in an area of Northern California that happens to be unique in that aspect? I can only tell u how it is here.

Also to clarify... Amber Marlowe... the pregnant woman this is all about was NOT turned away... she CHECKED HERSELF OUT OF THE HOSPITAL... which backs up what I said in my earlier post... she left AMA... against medical advice... which was absolutely her right. I agree that the doctors had the right to suggest the c-section if that's what they felt was in the best interest of the patient and unborn child. That's what they're paid to do. Assess the situation, assess the patient, and honestly that assessment would have to include their own confidence in being able to handle the situation themselves. Maybe that doctor didn't feel he/she could have delivered the child naturally. Which brings back my initial point in previous post... had she been followed by this doctor throughout her pregnancy? I don't think so, based on the situation. This whole situation probably could have been avoided had Amber been followed throughout her pregnancy and had a doctor from the beginning who knew her history, knew her desires for natural labor, and knew her ability.

I do NOT agree, however, with the doctor's and courts pursuit of custody of the unborn child as a result of her acting AMA. I think the doctor was TOTALLY wrong for pursuing this measure and I think the court was ABSOLUTELY wrong for granting it.

Having said that, to base all c-section suggestions as being wrong and only necessary for money-hungry doctors is baseless and totally unfair for all the good OB doctors out there trying to stay alive in this necessary field.

Yea, we're speaking to a lightpole, alright, and that's Lando.

Lando's a LIAR and a PSYCHO.

And look at the stupid responses he makes. Don't even respond to the crackhead and the other crackheads that opposed Lisa and made those RIDICULOUS, unintelligent responses.

He confirms the belief that there are doctors who are just as crazy as those vagabonds on the streets.

READ the article on Wilkes-Barre before you guys make your stupid comments. The doctor at Wilkes-Barre DID make that order.

It's remarkable how it was proved right here on this message board how DULL-HEADED and WACKO the supporters of the medical industry can be.

And what makes you think you're going to go to Heaven when you croak.

"God will not allow you to enter heaven, knowing that you are not forgiven by people on earth."

And who do you think you are to speak for God?

You're a total idiot.

I'm done here, it's hard to argue with people who's I.Q. level is below normal. You guys just come up with things thats not even written in the complaint. Where the hell that it says that the doctor created an order for her child to be taken away when she gives birth naturally.

Idiot. You just make things up to make it sound that you're so right. Go argue with a lightpole.

Caroline, that's why the patient is being referred to another doctor, because the doctor thinks that a c-section is appropriate due to some factors that we don't know. If you or any patient don't agree with the doctors opinion, it's a free country. Go someplace else. The doctor is not forcing their opinion on you or the patient, that's why they're referring you to another doctor.

"If your hospital could not deliver a baby naturally, then why would you suggest that someone else can?"

That's what specialist are for. Brains Surgeons does only one thing, operate on brains. General practitioners don't do brain surgery. Duh!!!

It's really simple, if you don't agree with the doctors treatment plan, then go find someone else. What's so hard to understand about that? You don't want a C-section, have a midwife deliver the baby. You don't trust doctors, then don't see one. Go treat yourself if you think you know more.

Doctors 's motto: "Look like the flower, but be the serpent underneath."

These doctors or medical workers, who turn away a pregnant woman or put a mother in jail for doing what God gave them the ability to do in natural delivery, will suffer or their children will suffer.

I hope doctors, like the one at Wilkes-Barre who turned a way that woman in Pennsylvania and then created an order for her child to be taken a way if delivered in that hospital, will never be able to give birth nor their children or grandchildren be able to do so. I want you doctors to feel what 'TearsinHeaven' felt.

May you burn in hell. I want people like Lando to feel the burning pain and anguish of the worst kind of labor a woman can go through... the type of pain that will have you screaming for someone to put you out of your misery. I curse you medical workers who torture human beings like this... in their own very special "caring" way. And if you do have more children or grandchildren or great grandchildren, I hope they are born cursed and deformed... so you feel the pain of a mother's despair.

May blood be ripped out of you so you can feel the torture of a woman's labor and poured on the dirt ground where it belongs... or better yet, on the surgical table where you work. Cursed are the devils who think they are doing God's work. You or your kin will suffer one day. How does it feel knowing that you are a part of someone's torture?

You will die unforgiven. God will always forgive, that's too easy. But people will not forgive and you will feel that burden upon your deathbed. God will not allow you to enter heaven, knowing that you are not forgiven by people on earth.

Or you will go through life never being forgiven by someone out there and that black cloud will follow you everywhere and you will stumble and tumble and perish for the deeds you did to an innocent mother.

"Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."

You medical folk just can't bear the thought that as a woman emerges from the hell that is LABOR, she might like to find a lifelong companion in her doctor and hospital and have a measure of happiness. It offends your sensibilities and "intelligence" that she should request the right to have a natural labor in the hospital, to make medical decisions for herself.

How dare she? you say. These outrageous requests, you say, would threaten the very existence of your hospital, and undermine you.

You use medicine to abdicate your responsibility to be thinking human beings. There are vast numbers of medical people who find your attitudes repugnant.

God is not for the privileged majority, and God knows that a mother who chose natural birth has committed no sin.

Those of you who have been blessed with the benefits of a medical training - What ever happened to the idea of striving ... to be better human beings than you are?
Indeed, sir, what ever happened to that?

As a mother, I've seen firsthand how cruel and misguided medical workers can be. Many letters have been sent to the news, local newspapers, concerning the medical menace in this country. I am a mother who has given natural birth and I've taken enough from you good people.

I'm tired of your foolish rhetoric about YOUR MEDICAL TRAINING and your allegations that not accepting a doctor's prognosis is some sort of a CRIME. You are cruel and arrogant. You have been robbing women of the joys of motherhood before their children are born.

You have the audacity to talk about protecting hospitals and medical practices from the menace of patients like me, while you tear apart families and drive mothers to despair.

I know that God didn't put millions of doctors & medical workers on this Earth to give you patients to abuse. God gave you brains so that you could think, and it's about time you started doing that.

At the core of all your misguided beliefs is the belief that this could never happen to you, that there is some kind of subculture out there that people have chosen to join against the medical industry. The fact is that if it can happen to my family, it can happen to yours, AND YOU WON'T GET TO CHOOSE.

If you want to tout your own morality, you'd best come up with something more substantive than your credentials. You did nothing to earn it; it was given to you - And I am directing this to the doctors who feel the need to impose your prognosis and KICK OUT A PREGNANT WOMAN who does not accept a particular prognosis.

It is so woven into the very soul of you doctors and stupid medical workers that nothing could ever change what you've learned in medicine. For those of you who PUT DOWN THE PATIENTS WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU AS IGNORANT, you who reduce your medical prognosis to a simple choice, and judge a patient who disagrees having a character issue or a bad habit or something that can be changed by kicking them out of your care, I'm puzzled.

If your hospital could not deliver a baby naturally, then why would you suggest that someone else can?

A TIME WHEN A 75 YEAR OLD MAN IS SMARTER THAN DOCTORS:

A Doctor was addressing a large audience in Tampa.
"The material we put into our stomachs is enough to have killed most of us sitting here, years ago. Red meat is awful. Soft drinks corrode your stomach lining.
Chinese food is loaded with MSG. High fat diets can be disastrous, and none of us realizes the long-term harm caused by the germs in our drinking water. But there is one thing that is the most dangerous of all and we all have, or will, eat it. Can anyone here tell me what food it is that causes the most grief and suffering for years after eating it?"

After several seconds of quiet, a 75-year-old man in the front row raised his hand, and softly said, "Wedding Cake."

Company
Three Rivers Healthcare aka Lucy Lee Hospital
Address:
Hwy. 67 North
Poplar Bluff Missouri 63901
U.S.A.
Phone Number:
573-686-1000

I went to this hospital because I had to have induced labor with my first child. I had my baby there and she was stillborn. My husband & mother both later told me that when the doctor handed my daughter to a nurse, she placed my baby into a tin tub that was filled with bloody tissues - as if she were TRASH!!

To make a long story short, I was promised that my daughter's photos would be taken, and that the nurses' would bring my daughter to me so I could spend what little time with her that I could. I repeatedly asked throughout my overnight stay that both my baby and her pictures to brought to me, only to be told "in a minute" or completely ignored.

Around 2 a.m. that night, a nurse came into my room & I then demanded that I be allowed to hold my daughter. This nurse told me that the funeral home had already picked her up! I then asked for her photos and was told that no photos were taken of her!

The next day my husband & I had to make the funeral arrangements,and while at the chapel, I asked the owner himself when exactly did they pick up my daughter & why wasnt I informed. He told me that he had NOT picked my baby up until just a few hours ago! The hospital had not even contacted him about it until I was released! So my baby was there the entire night, and the hospital outright lied to me about her.

Thanks to them, I have no memories of my baby! They had absolutely NO RIGHT to keep me away from her or to lie to my face about things that should have been done, that I asked countless times to be done and that were promised to be done; but were not.

I have called Three Rivers numerous times asking for an explanation over the way I was treated, they just tell me to call another department and then I'm directed to voice mails of different people, none of who have ever once bothered to return my calls! Two months ago I wrote a formal letter to the hospital and their headquarters in California, they have yet to respond to my letter whatsoever, not even an apology!!

I have not had any luck in finding a center which handles this. Somehow it is not considered grounds for suit, but I am not going to let this hospital get away with what they have done! This is something no mother should EVER go through!

Where did you get that fact? Are you a doctor to tell us that we're wrong? Doctor's have opionions, in order to come to a diagnosis, we have to take into account many things, symptoms, lab results,personal experience, etc. Then we make our diagnosis based on all the information we've collected from the patient and make a diagnosis based on that. Now, a lot of doctors have different opinions, that's why patients are always told by other people to seek a second opinion. You can go to different doctors and sometimes you will get a different answers most of time, their diagnosis will somewhat differ. So making the statement "many doctors are wrong" from someone who is not a doctor is not very credible. And for some reason, if you're a doctor and you made this statement, you know you shouldn't have since my opinion as a doctor is as good as yours and a matter of differences in opinion is just a fact of life in medicine. Unless the doctor you're trying to criticize is "grossly negligent" or doesn't deliver "standard of care" you're out of line calling doctors liars. And making the statement "MANY DOCTORS ARE WRONG". Like I said before, I am a doctor, (Oral & Maxillofacial Surgeon) I was just wondering what exactly do you do in the medical field K. Silberberg? Excuse my typing, it's late and I just got home and i'm really tired.

Calling everyone a moron isn't a good idea. You said you work in the medical profession? I am a doctor, (oral surgeon,member AAOMS) are you telling me that I lie to my patients, and I'm not genuine?
What procedure in the medical field that you have in mind that I am now aware of?

"I know what goes on and what is being said behind patients' backs. Doctors and nurses are not genuine. They are LIARS!"

Apparently, you are not a doctor, otherwise you wouldn't have made that comment that you just made. So don't just walk in here and call everyone a moron coz you work in the medical field. You don't know who you're talking to. People like you who irritate me, what exactly do you do in the medical field.?

There are so many things wrong with the original posting I don't know where to start.
But lets just break it down. If the hospital takes federal money for any reason (96% do) they have a legal obligation to stabalize a patient. That is it!
If the woman was stable, they can refuse treatment if they feel it is against the best interest of the patient.

It is really just that simple.
Patient stable = Sounds like it
Patient refuses recomended medical treatment = yes
Patient goes to a different hospital.

No wrong doing here

Being in the medical profession, I am embarassed by the ridiculous responses to Lisa's comment. You people are completely unaware of the procedures done in the medical industry. NO ONE IS AGAINST CESAREANS... JUST STUPID DOCTORS.

I know what goes on and what is being said behind patients' backs. Doctors and nurses are not genuine. They are LIARS!

Because of the SILLY, IMMATURE responses to Lisa's protest, it makes the rest of us in the medical profession, look like fools!

YOU FELL RIGHT INTO LISA'S PLAN... MORONS....

Case in Point:

Does Cesarean Section Prevent Maternal Injury?

In any case, cesareans are not protective. The studies comparing pelvic floor strength between women having vaginal births and women having cesarean deliveries have all been done within a few months after birth. In point of fact, the pelvic floor recovers. Studies doing long-term followup fail to find differences in muscle strength or urinary incontinence between women birthing vaginally and women having cesareans. What's more, a program of pelvic floor exercises can strengthen the pelvic floor and relieve symptoms in many women. In other words, weakness can often be remedied without risk or expense.

Are Cesarean Sections Safer than Vaginal Birth?

As someone whose life work is evaluating and synthesizing the obstetric research, I can attest that NO data support the contention that cesareans are as safe as vaginal birth for mother or baby. A cesarean section is major abdominal surgery, with all that entails. Compared with vaginal birth, cesarean section causes pain and debility, sometimes for weeks. The surgery itself, as opposed to medical problems that might lead to a cesarean, increases the risk of maternal death, hysterectomy, hemorrhage, surgical injury to other organs, infection, blood clots, and rehospitalization for complications.

Potential chronic complications from scar tissue adhesions include pelvic pain, bowel problems, and pain during sexual intercourse. Scar tissue makes subsequent cesareans more difficult to perform, increasing the risk of injury to other organs and the risk of chronic problems from adhesions. The surgery itself also increases the risk of the baby being born in poor condition or having trouble breathing after planned cesarean or cesareans done for reasons other than the baby's condition. Also, because of scar tissue, the incidence of placenta previa (the placenta overlays the cervix) and placenta accreta (the placenta grows into or through the uterine muscular wall), complications that kill babies and mothers, soars with each successive cesarean.

Infertility and ectopic pregnancy (the embryo implants outside the uterus) associate with previous cesarean section as well. Finally, the uterine scar raises the specter of uterine rupture during a subsequent pregnancy or birth, a danger not removed by planned repeat cesarean.

The Newsweek article stated that vaginal birth caused cerebral palsy, implying that elective cesarean section was the solution. Studies show that few cases of CP arise from events in labor, which is one of the main reasons why electronic fetal monitoring has had no effect on the CP rate. Even the fact that some babies develop cerebral palsy after vaginal birth without an obvious explanation does not necessarily mean vaginal birth was the cause. As with pelvic floor weakness, obstetric management plays a role.

For example, Pitocin, used to induce labor and stimulate stronger contractions, can cause overly strong contractions that deprive the baby of oxygen, and instrumental delivery can cause bleeding in the brain. Also, while a policy of routine cesarean might prevent a few cases of CP, the benefit would be vastly outweighed by the harm done to many thousands of other mothers and babies.

Why Do Obstetricans Think the Way They Do?

How can obstetricians hold beliefs so contrary to the facts? Primarily because "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Despite rhetoric about being "women's health physicians," obstetricians are surgical specialists in the pathology of women's reproductive organs. The belief that birth is difficult, dangerous, and damaging and that major surgery is preferable validates and reinforces their sense of professional worth.

Other motives also come into play. Obstetricians are hardly disinterested parties when it comes to cesarean versus vaginal birth. Cesarean section offers them protection from malpractice suits (they think), convenience and efficient use of their time, and in some cases, more money. Given this, you can readily understand why many obstetricians are willing to deny or rationalize the risks of cesareans and to delude themselves and their patients on these points.

Don't be deceived by the issue being framed as denying a woman's right to choose. This has nothing to do with making an informed decision based on an objective understanding of the pros and cons of the various options. The "right" to a cesarean is the sole instance where obstetricians have ever championed a woman's right to determine any aspect of her care other than, perhaps, her right to refuse an epidural.

The fact that so many women believe cesarean section to be a safe, easy, and less painful way to have a baby and have exaggerated ideas of the dangers of normal birth is proof positive that obstetricians have been derelict in their duty both to help their patients make informed choices and to practice evidence-based care.

She was 11 days overdue, but even before that I had the worst doctor... She was cold, quick and callous with me from the beginning. Any questions I had to give she showed she was reluctant to answer, but when she did she never looked me in the eye and gave me a lot of yes's or nos. During check ups was extremely rude... And since this was my first child and we had this HMO, low insurance, we had to put up with her.

On the 10th day overdue I called her and she told me to call and get set up at the hospital for a bed. I did, and the lady there told me to wait, and I tell her my doctor told me to call. Things get all mixed up and I get extremely frustrated because I was so late and big too. I call for the bed appt. a few times, and I don't understand what is going on... Then my doctor calls and tells me that I need to calm down and wait for a room! "Why are you bothering the staff?!" She exclaims over the phone. She gets off the phone and I'm more confused than ever!

Finally I get in the next day. At 7pm I'm in a bed, finally! They start the pitocin, IV etc... The nurse and all there seem so cold and withdrawn and don't want to talk - just give orders. I am at 3cm by 12, and the doctor says if by 1am I haven't progressed any further, then she will just have to do a c-section. She is talking to the nurse, NOT ME! She tells the nurse to give me Stadol and I'm not really feeling bad with the contractions too much, but the Stadol makes me feel like I'm on a merry-go-round at a fast speed making me sick and dizzy.

She comes back in an hour or so later (by the way, every time she came into the room she wouldn't say hi or look at me, it was always that way). Well, she checks for dilation, this whole time nothing is being said to me about what is going on! She takes her finger or many fingers - it felt like a knife - and crammed it up inside my uterus... I remember her saying something like, "I feel a little bit of a lip there..." Whatever... Tells me then it was time to do a C-section. She leaves again...

This anesthesiologist comes in to put a needle in my back and then after he puts the anesthesia to numb me (before my epidural) my water breaks all over the bed looking muddy or dark in color. I get numb and am feeling hurt and disappointed by this time as I'm wheeled away to the OR room... I'm a little bit uneasy; no one is talking to me or trying to let me know what is going on here. They start and about less than half way through I begin to not be able to feel myself breathe. I mention it, and the anesthesiologist says, "Yes you are because your breathing, and you wouldn't be able to talk if you weren't breathing."

It felt like I wasn't breathing though, like something big was sitting on my chest. I mentioned it again, this time I said really, it feels terrible! So he puts an oxygen mask on me that wasn't there before? It still didn't help... At that point, I looked at my husband and said, "Honey, please help me. They don't know that I can't feel myself breathing." He said, "You're doing okay, you're breathing." My husband said that at this time, the anesthesiologist said, "Gooooooood Night!" and I was out cold....

I woke up feeling the same and he did it again. When I woke up it was a nightmare! I was really suffering! I then heard, it's a girl... I waited for a cry and then I heard it, was so overjoyed but that within a half second it left me because of this sensation of not feeling like I was actually breathing. They never showed me my daughter then. It took 2 hours of hellish recovery in the recovery room, and the doctor was doing paperwork a few yards away from me, glaring at me from above her glasses with the arched eyebrow.

Still suffering even more, I don't know why I asked the nurse for some ice feeling that maybe I'd get some sort of oxygen from that, I know that it sounds odd... She wouldn't, she said she couldn't... I said "Pleeeeeeeez!" I was really panicking then not being able to feel myself breathe was a terrible, terrible hellish plight. My hands were strapped down to the table and of course I wasn't allowed to sit up to even try to catch a single breath... I begged the nurse again, and she laughed and gave in and gave me a chip of ice... I felt instant relief, but as soon as it was gone this sensation came back... I remember saying, "Oh no, not again... Please someone help me!"

NOT ONE PERSON CAME OVER TO ME TO TELL ME EVERYTHING WAS GOING TO BE OKAY, NOT A NURSE, CERTAINLY NOT THE DOCTOR AND THEN, the anesthesiologist came over to me and yelled at me in my ear and said WOULD YOU JUST CALM DOWN? BE QUIET, BE QUIET, AND I remember feeling this feeling of betrayal by all involved there... I knew it, and I knew I didn't deserve it...

My husband came in and said she was beautiful, I begged him to stay, he said "you're just recovering, you're going to be fine." I said, "No, no stay here with me! You don't know what hellish hell is like that I've gone through here please stay..." He said, "I told your mom I'd be right back, I've got go! I'm having a really good time." Yes that is right, folks, this is what my loving husband said to me.

Wheeling me out I felt better, but was still so scared... I saw my 8 pound, 15 ounce daughter, all pink and long in the nursery on the way to my bed. I found out right after she was born, they bottle fed her! Before I even nursed her. I was out the next evening, due to HMO and all, my doctor said.

I can't tell you what this has done to me regarding seeing another doctor. It's been four years now. Guess what, I'm 37 almost 38 and we're trying again starting as of last month. We had a really, really, really good baby girl, she's been wonderful and such a blessing. I feel I owe it to myself to at least give myself another chance. I must have a midwife and doula. Having it at home, VBAC.

Please pray for me Lord willing that I can even get pregnant now and have a normal baby, at this late stage in the game. I want to experience birth of my child with me in charge of my body! NO ONE ELSE! I'll make all the decisions and one false move, from a nurse or doctor if I've got to go in for complications or anything, and they are in big, big trouble.... I'm suspicious of all medical workers now.

1. She wanted to be a doctor and couldn't get into medical school.

2. She dated a doctor and got dumped.

3. She is the type who would say "the sky is green" if anyone ever pointed out to her that it is blue.

4. She is just angry..period.

"MORTALITY RATE... let's talk about it. India and China has 4 to 5 times as many people living in their countries than the U.S. And if you want to discuss the death of babies... let's talk about the economic situations and the lack of nutrition. Just a "hunch" or did you FORGET about those OTHER factors from "highschool" global history..."
I think he meant in proportion to the size of the population...the mortality rate is lower here in the US. Common sense, you know.

"The U.S. probably has the lowest mortality rate because of having the HIGHEST OBESITY RATE."
Another duh! what the hell are you talking about? Sounds like you the highest level of education you've attained is grade 3.

"By the way, I have absolutely no sympathy for and I don't give ANY credit to doctors who spend their whole life and earnings on medical school... that was their CHOICE, so don't complain.
Well, why don't you just tell that to the doctor who see's you next time you see them when you have a stroke or heart attack. Wait, sounds to me that you can treat yourself. Just get a knife and do open heart surgery on yourself since you SEEM TO KNOW EVERYTHING EVEN WITHOUT ATTENDING MEDICAL SCHOOL.

"And you being a wife to a doctor... you are probably more blind than anyone else."
Again, blind to what? You don't make any sense. I feel like I'm talking to someone who has an I.Q. level of a gnat.

Lisa, ignorance kills. And your full of ignorance, no, in fact, you're overflowing with ignorance, there's no sense arguing with you coz your level of comprehension is just way out there.

Lisa your responses are truly amazing. Babies are still being born and thrown in the trash because of women and young girls who become pregnant and have no idea where to go from there not because of being forced of something into a situation that they do not want. Young women who are pregnant and hide it from their parents because of backlash from one or both parents is a prime example. You can in almost any city go and drop a baby off at a "safe house" and have no question asked.

As times change, womens bodies and needs change and technology changes so will the opinion of doctors. For every one medical mistake there is hundreds of cases out there that were successes. Medicine is not a fool proof trade. Yes mistakes, they do happen and sometimes with horrible results. You can ask your coctor for referrals from other patients, you can yourself speak to other patients of his, look how busy your OB/GYN office is, what kind of education does your doctor have, does have or has he ever had pending lawsuits. Those and numerous other ideas are a good idea for anyone to do with ANY doctor. After all this is your BODY and your future CHILDREN we are talking about.

If you live in perpetual fear that you are going to get the worst care then how are you ever going to take care of yourself?

MORTALITY RATE... let's talk about it. India and China has 4 to 5 times as many people living in their countries than the U.S. And if you want to discuss the death of babies... let's talk about the economic situations and the lack of nutrition. Just a "hunch" or did you FORGET about those OTHER factors from "highschool" global history...

The U.S. probably has the lowest mortality rate because of having the HIGHEST OBESITY RATE.

The only people who should care about mortality are the patients. Doctors can't FORCE that choice upon anyone.

By the way, I have absolutely no sympathy for and I don't give ANY credit to doctors who spend their whole life and earnings on medical school... that was their CHOICE, so don't complain.

And you being a wife to a doctor... you are probably more blind than anyone else.

I am so glad others have already responded to this because as one writer already stated, when I first read it I was so dumbfounded that I could not respond.

There are so many inaccuracies and half-truths it's hard to know where to begin. Most have already been rebutted.... such as getting patients in and out as being justification for c-sections. The medical industry standard that INSURANCE COMPANIES ALLOW (not the hospital or doctor mind u) is up to 2 days for natural birth and up to 4 days for c-section. So there goes that WHOLE arguement.

Many facts are missing from this post... was the doctor who recommended the c-section HER doctor? Had she been followed through her pregnancy by an OB and this was HIS/HER recommendation? What were her overriding health factors? What were the vitals of the baby? These are only SOME of the questions that a qualified professional must consider, and, yes... use his/her own best judgement based on the answers. You have every right not to follow those recommendations... it is called "AMA" (Against Medical Advice)... patients and doctors have the same right to refuse treatment that is not in line with their own assessment of the situation. It is not something to be outraged about. This woman made a choice and fortunately for her (since we don't know all the facts it could be QUITE fortunate for her) it all worked out fine (according to Lisa's report).

Another thing that Lisa fails to mention is the mortality rate in other countries. I don't have that information myself, but I'd be willing to bet that our mortality rate is lower. Just a hunch. ;-)

I am not saying all c-sections are medically necessary, in fact, most physicians I know would rather avoid the c-section whenever possible because of the higher risk associated with it. It may be "easier" for the newborn, but it is not "better" for him/her. The process of going through the birth canal is beneficial (albeit a little stressful) in getting (sqeezing if you will) all the fluids out of the lungs. Babies born via c-section to not benefit from this process and tend to have a little more respiratory recovery time.

By the way Lisa... for your information, doctors are the poorest "rich" people you will ever meet. I should know... I'm married to one. Nicole is absolutely correct... after you've spent 12+ years in school (AFTER high school) and then another 4-10 in OJT (internship, etc.)... and after you've spent in excess of $150,000 (that's right SPENT, not earned...), and after you have reviewed the medical chart of that pregnant woman, and assessed her situation in a professional capacity... THEN you can come back and rant if you feel the same way. I doubt you would.

THIS IS WHY THERE ARE STILL BABIES THROWN IN THE TRASH!

BECAUSE OF FORCEFUL INTERVENTIONS BY HOSPITALS AND DOCTORS. DOCTORS CARE ABOUT BEING SUED, BUT AT WHAT REAL COST? THEIR SALARIES OR AT THE COST OF BABIES BEING BORN AT HOME WITHOUT MEDICAL ATTENTION OR THROWN IN THE TRASH BECAUSE OF THE FEAR OF BEING FORCED INTO SOMETHING THEY ARE NOT WILLING TO DO?

THERE ARE SOLUTIONS... BUT DOCTORS ARE TOO NARROW-MINDED OR SCAAAARED TO DEAL WITH OTHER ANSWERS.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/19/health/main618535.shtml

Debate Revived On Mother's Rights

PHILADELPHIA, May 19, 2004

"If someone doesn't seek prenatal care, what are we going to do, lock them up?"
Dr. Michael Grodin, Boston University

(AP) Several cases in U.S. courts in recent months have revived a debate about whether mothers have an absolute right to choose when, where and how they give birth even if the health of their babies is at stake.

Some women's advocates said the cases illustrate a newfound willingness by legal officials to interfere with women's choices about their pregnancies.

"My impression is that we have a political culture right now that falsely pits fetal rights against women's rights, and that you are seeing a kind of s****.> In one case last winter, Amber Marlowe, who had already given birth to six babies each weighing close to 12 pounds, brushed off doctors who told her that her seventh an 11-pound, 9-ounce girl could be delivered only by Caesarean section.

But the medical staff at Wilkes-Barre General Hospital wouldn't budge, so Marlowe checked herself out and went looking for a new doctor.

While she was on her search, Wilkes-Barre General's lawyers rushed to court to get legal guardianship of her unborn child, giving the hospital the ability to force Marlowe into surgery if she returned.

Marlowe ended up at another hospital, where she had a quick, natural birth she described as "a piece of cake." She didn't know about the first hospital's action until her husband was told by a reporter.

"They don't know me from anything, and they're making decisions about my body?" she said. "It was terrifying."

Officials with Wilkes-Barre General did not return calls seeking comment.

Some groups representing doctors, including the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology, have said that physicians should refrain from doing procedures unwanted by pregnant woman, and that use of the courts to resolve conflicts is almost never warranted.

A spokesman for the American Hospital Association wasn't immediately sure whether the organization has ever taken a position on the issue.

In Salt Lake City, an acknowledged cocaine addict with a history of mental health problems resisted having the operation for about two weeks before acquiescing. One of the twins she was carrying died during the delay. The mother was charged with capital murder but ultimately pleaded guilty to a lesser charge of child endangerment and was sentenced to probation.

Last month, prosecutors in Pittsburgh charged an unlicensed midwife with involuntary manslaughter for failing to take a woman to the hospital when her baby began to be delivered feet-first. The child died two days later. The midwife said she had been trying to honor the mother's wishes to have the baby at home.

And in Rochester, New York, a judge in late March ordered a homeless woman who had lost custody of several neglected children not to get pregnant again without court approval.

LEGAL EXPERTS AND MEDICAL ETHICISTS SAID ATTEMPTS TO PROSECUTE WOMEN FOR PREGNANCY CHOICES, OR FORCE THEM TO UNDERGO CERTAIN PROCEDURES FOR THE BENEFIT OF THEIR CHILDREN, MAY BE ON SHAKY GROUND.

"There are 50 years of case law and bioethical writings that say that competent people can refuse care, and that includes pregnant women as well," said Art Caplan, chairman of medical ethics at the University of Pennsylvania.

In one influential case, a federal appeals court in Washington, D.C., ruled in 1990 that a judge was wrong to have granted a hospital permission to force a pregnant cancer patient to undergo a Caesarean in an attempt to save the life of her child. THE MOTHER AND BABY DIED WITHIN 2 DAYS OF THE CAESAREAN OPERATION.

Doctors' opinions on forced care for pregnant mothers have changed, too.

A 2002 survey by researchers at the University of Chicago found only 4 percent of directors of maternal-fetal medicine fellowship programs believed pregnant women should be required to undergo potentially lifesaving treatment for the sake of their fetuses, down from 47 percent in 1987.

Dr. Michael Grodin, director of Medical Ethics at the Boston University School of Medicine, said doctors should seek court intervention when a mother refuses care only if the patient is mentally ill.

"Women have a right to refuse treatment. Women have a right to control their bodies. It is a dangerous slope. What's next? If someone doesn't seek prenatal care, what are we going to do, lock them up?"

By David B. Caruso

By the way Lisa, this is a rip-off report site, I fail to see the rip-off on your original ranting and raving, turning away a patient who doesn't agree with the doctors advice not ripping off anyone! Go rant someplace else.

In this day where managed care rules, the INSURANCE companies pretty much determine the hospital stay, NOT the physician. And in the vast majority of C-sections, the mother is discharged in two days from the time of the procedure. The only exception to that is if there are complications such as the patient being febrile or unable to have a bowel movement. You don't seem to understand that the insurance providers pretty much run the show now, NOT the medical staff.

I don't know where you got your (mis)information that c-sections are performed only in the United States, as this is simply not true.

My suggestion to you, when you read is to THINK for yourself; the truth of an article is usually somewhere in the middle.

I read this thread on the women who was pregnant and was refusing a c-section. I was amazed and appalled by Lisa and her accompaning rants and raves.

First of all I am willing to bet that we ALL including Lisa do not nor will we EVER have the whole story on the women this thread pertains to. So I guess we will never know why she was refusing a c-section or her doctor was recommending one.

It is a fact that doctors are doing more c-sections for a variety of reasons. Those being from mothers who are demanding, medical reasons, and they are doing them more in a effort to reduce law suits that stem from complications that have to due with the birthing process. Cerebal palsy is a prime example of something that could happen during the birth. Am I the only one that has seen the lawyers ad's on t.v. touting that your childs handicap may have something to with the doctor and his/her actions during the birth.

As far as Lisa stating that hospitals and doctors do more c-sections as a result of wanting to get people in and out, well that is just plain crazy! ANYONE know that you spend MORE time in the hospital with a c-section. Its MAJOR surgery. I should know I spent 7 days in the hospital recovering from mine. So that point right there makes no sense, just like alot of her other ranting and raving.

Lisa also states that we should not have so many c-sections. She says that natural births and the results are just that, results and you have to live with them and so does the child. Lisa, I can only hope you never have a child with handicap. Those parents are true angels and there will be a special place in heaven for them and their child. That remarks only stands to enforce how harsh, not in touch with reality and way off base you are with this whole report.

So if you are so worred about getting terrible care from doctors then stop going. Have your child at home and when it comes time for you to give birth we will see then, If the complications set in how willing you are to listen to a doctor. Not everything can be solved with natural birth although I advocate it when its truly able to be accomplished. Remember when your baby has handicaps (god forbid) that he or she has grown up with and have no idea what anything different is (because I guess you will keep them in the house and isolate them from society and its norms) that is was all YOUR CHOICE.

Thanks and I apologize for all spelling and grammer errors. Its late and I was up with my children late who by the way were born by c-sections perfectly normal.

Lisa,
While I appreciate your apparent frustration with physicians in this country, I also see that much of your argument against them is based on illogical reasoning.

Let's start with your claim that the USA has more C-sections than any other country. That probably is true, however, that statistic doesn't mean anything when you don't know how many of them were *requested* versus how many of them were *necessary*. Many, many women here choose to go with a C-section for scheduling purposes, or to avoid a natural birth, or because it is their belief that they are less stressful on the infant (which is actually backed up when you look at vital signs of the infant when going through a "normal" birth vs. a C-section). So you can't sit there and argue that doctors are forcing people to have these procedures unless you know that is where that statistic came from.

Two, you keep talking about "rich" doctors. I'm sure you feel that we're all sitting here rolling in the money and laughing about how the American people are suckers for paying us. The truth of the matter is OBGYN's in particular (and someone already made this point) may indeed make over $100,000 a year, but in Ohio their malpractice insurance can oftentimes take 90% of their salary to pay off. So in reality you could have a doc that is only making $10,000 and still having to pay office staff/overhead on top of it... hence why so many docs are no refusing to do deliveries. In fact, here in Ohio, we've had many OBGYN docs simply up and leave the state, closing practices they had had for years, because their malpractice insurance cost actually exceeded how much they normally made in one year.

The reason for this is because people like you want it both ways... you want to complain that doctors think they are God and that they force their will on people but as soon as something goes wrong you want to blame that doctor and say they should have known better. Therefore, doctors must protect themselves from liability. Perhaps in this particular case there was another reason this patient was refused... however, that was one isolated incident and does not reflect on most physicians.

We don't go into this for the money anymore... you can't unless you're a specialty surgeon or a radiologist. Medicine simply isn't as lucrative these days. If we just wanted money we'd all have gone to law school...

You're sitting here ranting about your bad experiences with doctors and your friend from Russia who "is just fine without them" yet at the same time "needs to take them". A doctor isn't responsible if someone gets "addicted" to the medication they put them on. You didn't mention what kind of medication we're talking about, but let me clarify what addiction is... it's not just psychological dependence;it is also physical dependence. So it's entirely possible that your friend isn't even addicted but just is in her mind, which makes her psychologically dependent.

In which case, she should go see a psychiatrist. It's not a doctor's fault she doesn't have the will to stop taking whatever she is taking, or if she is prone to addiction that she cannot stop taking it. Doctors cannot know when prescribing a drug how a patient is going to respond, and they usually don't prescribe drugs unless there is a reason for them. And I sincerely apologixe for whatever these other physicians have done to "wrong" you and your family, but you should get over it and seek out alternatives or other, better, doctors instead of ranting on the internet.

But since you seem to know so much about what we all need, perhaps you should invest in 8 years of schooling just to get your MD and then you can do a residency which will run you another 3-9 years plus depending on what you want to do. And once you've done that and are paying off loans that amass greater than $150,000, you can come back and tell us all how right you are. In the meantime, leave it to the people who know more than you ever possibly could about the human body and stop faulting them for "mistakes" in the choices they have made.

One, they're all human beings who will make mistakes on occasion and two, you cannot expect a doctor to operate simply by asking each patient "well, what do *you* think we should do?" or "what procedure should we do to reduce that fracture?" or "what drug should i give you for this psychotic delusional disorder you seem to be developing?". If they did that we wouldn't need them in the first place anyway, now would we?

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/GiveMeABreak/GMAB_edwards_040723-1.html

Lawyers and the Little Guy
How Helpful Were V.P. Hopeful Edwards' Courtroom Triumphs?

Commentary
By John Stossel

Litigating Health Care

In hospitals, the lawyers have bred so much fear that patients now suffer more pain, and may be less safe because doctors are concerned about being sued.

"That fear is always there," said obstetrics professor Dr. Edgar Mandeville. "Everybody walks in mortal fear of being sued."

The Department of Health and Human Services found doctors order painful tests they consider unnecessary, for fear of being sued. [I BELIEVE THOSE TESTS ARE NECESSARY.] And the majority of doctors say they recommended invasive procedures more often than they believed were medically necessary in an effort to prevent potential litigation.

Richard "Dickie" Scruggs may be America's most successful trial lawyer. He made a billion dollars from tobacco lawsuits alone.

I asked Scruggs if he thought that was accurate, and he said, "That's probably true but why do they do it? They make more money, the more they do."

But the doctors say it's because of fear of the lawyers.

"Well I would say that too, if I were gouging someone and wanted to get away with it and blame it on somebody else," said Scruggs.

Are they all gouging patients? Clearly, there are bad and careless doctors, but in certain specialties most doctors are being sued.

In fact, 76 percent of American obstetricians have been sued. Yet lawyers, like Scruggs, often say there are only a 'few' physicians who are causing all the problems.

Then how is it fair that three-fourths of the obstetricians get sued?

"Well, you know that's why they have insurance," said Scruggs.

Consumers pay for that insurance in increased costs, but the result doesn't necessarily make us safer.

A GOVERNMENT STUDY FOUND THIS FEAR OF LAWSUITS HAS MADE MANY HOSPITALS RELUCTANT TO REPORT PROBLEMS, WITH AS MANY AS 95 PERCENT OF ADVERSE EVENTS BELIEVED TO GO UNREPORTED.

Are the fear and the secrecy making us less safe?

Scruggs' response: "I disagree with that. I think that's what doctors say."


Example: Edwards' Cerebral Palsy Case

Vice presidential candidate Edwards made millions suing doctors and hospitals on behalf of people whose children had been born with cerebral palsy.

Cerebral palsy is a central nervous system defect that makes it hard for people to control their muscles. At the time of Edwards' cases, the defect was often said to be caused by a lack of oxygen to the baby's brain during delivery. Edwards and other lawyers have argued that if the doctor involved had only done a Caesarean section, the child's cerebral palsy could have been prevented.

He won a record verdict in a cerebral palsy case after he told the jury he was speaking for the injured infant, in the womb. He was very convincing and the jury awarded his clients over $6 million. Scruggs told me, "Wouldn't you want your lawyer to be just as clever and just as effective?"

One thing doctors may have learned from these kinds of cases was to do more C-sections.

THE PROCEDURE IS MORE COMMON TODAY FOR MANY REASONS, INCLUDING SCHEDULING CONVENIENCE, but doctors say fear of a cerebral palsy lawsuit has had a big impact.

SINCE 1970 C-SECTION HAVE GONE FROM 6 PERCENT OF ALL BIRTHS TO 26 PERCENT. "AND THERE HAS NOT BEEN ONE SMALL DECREASE IN THE CEREBRAL PALSY RATE ACROSS THE BOARD," SAID MANDEVILLE.

In a report released last year by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and the American Academy of Pediatrics, scientists now say the disease is seldom caused by anything a doctor does in the delivery room.

HOWEVER, TODAY MANY C-SECTIONS ARE STILL DONE IN HOPES OF AVOIDING A LAWSUIT, EVEN THOUGH C-SECTIONS ARE STILL DONE IN HOPES OF AVOIDING A LAWSUIT, EVEN THOUGH C-SECTIONS ARE A MORE PAINFUL WAY TO GIVE BIRTH, AS WELL AS MORE EXPENSIVE, REQUIRING A LONGER HOSPITAL STAY, AND CARRYING GREATER HEALTH RISKS.

So are women today experiencing unnecessary surgery partly because lawyers like Edwards scared doctors?

Edwards wouldn't talk to us about this, but his campaign sent us the following statement: "As a lawyer, Senator Edwards took his responsibility to determine if cases were merited very seriously and would spend months investigating his cases. He employed a full-time medical staff to make sure the cases he took were those with the most merit, and he would not go forward with any case without the support of experts in the particular medical field. He also believes that we need a national system in place that will weed out the meritless lawsuits without taking away patients' rights."

Maybe all of Edward's cases were good ones, where C-sections were called for. It's possible that's true, but the fearful atmosphere that these kinds of lawsuits create has far-reaching consequences. Consider the minister who will no longer hug a grieving parishioner because of lawsuit concerns or the teachers who are told not to touch their students, or allow them to climb onto their lap for fear of lawsuit.

It makes it hard to trust job references. Employers can't tell the truth about their former employees, as the truth might have legal consequences. This threatens our safety, too. It's one reason a nurse who was killing patients kept getting jobs at new hospitals. The previous hospitals were too afraid of lawsuits to warn others that they suspected the nurse had harmed patients at their hospital.

THIS KIND OF FEAR DOESN'T MAKE AMERICANS SAFER. Give me a break.

Lisa, labor last a long time, they can last for hours and hours so the woman that was turned away for reasons unknown to us have time to have delivery at another hospital. Second, no one here is racist, its your inability to comprehend that makes you think everyone is racist just because they made a comment you don't like, you should what you wrote, it sounds more racist.

Third you claim women in america have been prescribed c-section too often because doctors lack the expertise and they give out wrong advice to patients? Where in the world did you get those facts? Are you a medical expert to claim that those women don't need a c-section? What medical school did you go to?

In fact, did you even go to school? And no, hospitals are not here to help people like the way you paint it, that's the job of county hospitals, sure they can't turn away people when they don't have insurance, but that's why private emergency rooms in hospitals are going bankrupt, coz they treat people who don't have insurance and they are not turned away (emergency treatments).

You said you would rather be sued than turn someone away? Good thing you're not a doctor, coz if you are, I think you'd be singing a different tune if you're in their shoes.

Also people don't obey doctors, they follow their advice, and no, most of them have passed a rigorous exam to obtain their medical license, hence, I can safely tell you that they DON'T HAVE THE SAME INTELLIGENCE AS A PARROT. Sounds like you have the brains of a parrot though.

Get some facts before you write anything, most of your ramblings are just pissing people off. Maybe you're just jealous of doctors, that's what it sounds like to me.

How is it that America is the only country with the most cesareans? And every other country is doing fine without so many cesareans.

Hospitals do cesareans because they don't want to keep so many patients in their hospitals for too long. They want them in and out as soon as possible. Reason? Money. The more patients they get out, leaves more rooms for more patients, which means the more money they get in.

In regards to the news program... that was on CBS early morning news. The woman who requested a natural delivery, against her doctor's wishes, had a history of giving only natural births, with almost 10 children. WHILE the woman was in labor and ABOUT to deliver, the doctor told her to LEAVE, because the mother had refused the cesarean. Well, they showed her baby on the show, and that baby was perfectly healthy and beautiful.

My sister was a cesarean because she was a breach baby. But my mother wanted a cesarean anyway. Even if there were no complications at all, my mother wanted it simply because she didn't want to go through a natural delivery.

My point is not that we shouldn't have cesareans. It's that if a woman does not want it, then the doctor should NOT force it! I definitely do believe that cesareans are necessary in certain situations. But if a mother is forewarned of the complications, and still STRONGLY decides to have the cesarean, then that should be HER choice.

As far as being sued. They need to come up with something where both the doctor and patient sign an agreement for a natural delivery that is against the doctor's wishes.

As far as being concerned about natural birth deliveries ending up children being born and growing up with complications. TOO BAD! The mother wanted it, so she deserved it! And I don't feel sympathy for the kid either. If they're born that way, then that's all they know in life.

You know what, I just won't have my baby in a hospital then. I'll have it at a natural birth center or in my home with experts. There is absolutely no reason why there are as many cesareans as there are.

Doctors are trained that way, that's why it's easier. And there ARE ways to make a natural delivery possible, if the situation is complicated.

If a woman WANTS a cesarean, then more power to her! But I'm speaking for women who desire a natural delivery and are misinformed about needing a cesarean.

I am also speaking out on the NUMEROUS reports regarding the HUGE AMOUNT of doctors who presribe things too much and too often that are not needed. How do you think so many people are getting addicted to pain killers/ oxycontin?

After my friend's mother came to this country from Russia, she got ill and doctors kept prescribing her so many pills, that she became addicted to it. THEY WERE UNNECESSARY. Now, she can't live without the medication. She is absolutely fine without the medication. The only reason she continues to take them is because she THINKS she needs them.

And there are hundreds of stories like that amongst my friends, relatives, neighbors and co-workers, where they were given the wrong advice by doctors.

Even my family and I are victims of bad advice from doctors. I am fed up with all doctors, including eye doctors/ dermatologists and whoever else. They just do it for the money. That's why people say that you should always get more than one doctor's "opinion." You'll see that most of them differ in their prescriptions or solutions.

Doctors are not miracle workers. They are just as human as anybody. And they are definitely NOT angels! They make mistakes more often than you will ever know. NEVER trust a doctor. Be skeptical, and if you don't feel right about the doctor's solution, then KEEP going to another doctor.

Why complain about healthcare costs, when that's what you buy into anyway?

There are numerous factors that may cause the obstetrician to lean towards performing a cesarean. If the mother has high blood pressure, toxemia, diabetes mellitus (gestational or otherwise), this would be medically indicated. A baby born to a diabetic mother is usually a higher weight baby (I have seen one in nursing school who was 15 pounds!). The umbilical cord could have been in a precarious position, the child could have been in "fetal distress", which is also an indication for a c-section.

Your comment about the hospital/doctor not being responsible if something happened is LUDICROUS. OB/GYN physicians have some of the highest liability insurance rates of any specialty, and it is because of litigious women, most who thought they knew more than the doctor.

If you must rant, at least rant intelligently.

If the doctor can arrange for timely service at another hospital, he or she is not obligated to treat a patient in a manner that he or she has deemed haszardous. It's like if you go into your gynecologist and want an abortion... if your particular doctor doesn't perform abortions he or she can send you to another facility where you can have that done.

Doctors are only obligated to treat patients in emergencies or when to not do so poses risk to the patient's life. They do NOT have to do anything they feel uncomfortable doing or anything that they feel will endanger their patients. The reason they have these options is because of malpractice, and it doesn't infringe on a patient's rights because they can always go to another physician.

As an intern, these type of rants really annoy me as they are from people who are ignorant about the health care system and what they are and are not entitled to.

I totally agree with the two rebuttals I have just read. I also have a comment.
It is not always about avoiding a lawsuit. While this is a good point, did you ever stop to think that this doctor had a heart? Maybe she turned away this woman because she couldn't bear the thought of having to deliver a stillborn child, NEEDLESSLY! The complete ignorance of the mother probably made this doctor SICK! Why would a mother deny a baby the right to life because of ignorance?
Childbirth is still a risk. People tend to forget this fact. Some babies stress out in labor, and start to die. Yeah, that's right: DIE. Their poor little hearts cannot take the stress and they start to skip or decrease heartbeats. That gives doctors a small window of opprotunity to save the baby. Thats what the heart monitor machines are for. Duh.
To think that babies born from c-sections are troubled in life is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Who is Oprah anyway? Maybe all of you weirdos who actually think this and who would be willing to let your child die or develop brain damage (from the lack of oxygen during the time you're deciding whether or not to deliver via c-section) should focus your energy on the joy of being able to conceive and have a child. There are millions of people out there who cannot experience this. They spend thousands of dollars to try to conceive via in-vitro or other options. Why don't you be thankful instead of practicing your stupid voodoo?
To sum this up: I had a c-section with my son. No, I didn't dream of giving birth this way. But my son almost died, and I owe his life to the quick response of his doctors. There wasn't enough time for an epidural. I had general anestesia. The recovery sucked. I have a huge scar. The scar tissue still hurts sometimes. But so what. I have a beautiful, healthy, gorgeous child, and I would not do one thing different.
I hope that baby survived. I will pray for it.

I totally agree with the two rebuttals I have just read. I also have a comment.
It is not always about avoiding a lawsuit. While this is a good point, did you ever stop to think that this doctor had a heart? Maybe she turned away this woman because she couldn't bear the thought of having to deliver a stillborn child, NEEDLESSLY! The complete ignorance of the mother probably made this doctor SICK! Why would a mother deny a baby the right to life because of ignorance?
Childbirth is still a risk. People tend to forget this fact. Some babies stress out in labor, and start to die. Yeah, that's right: DIE. Their poor little hearts cannot take the stress and they start to skip or decrease heartbeats. That gives doctors a small window of opprotunity to save the baby. Thats what the heart monitor machines are for. Duh.
To think that babies born from c-sections are troubled in life is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Who is Oprah anyway? Maybe all of you weirdos who actually think this and who would be willing to let your child die or develop brain damage (from the lack of oxygen during the time you're deciding whether or not to deliver via c-section) should focus your energy on the joy of being able to conceive and have a child. There are millions of people out there who cannot experience this. They spend thousands of dollars to try to conceive via in-vitro or other options. Why don't you be thankful instead of practicing your stupid voodoo?
To sum this up: I had a c-section with my son. No, I didn't dream of giving birth this way. But my son almost died, and I owe his life to the quick response of his doctors. There wasn't enough time for an epidural. I had general anestesia. The recovery sucked. I have a huge scar. The scar tissue still hurts sometimes. But so what. I have a beautiful, healthy, gorgeous child, and I would not do one thing different.
I hope that baby survived. I will pray for it.

I totally agree with the two rebuttals I have just read. I also have a comment.
It is not always about avoiding a lawsuit. While this is a good point, did you ever stop to think that this doctor had a heart? Maybe she turned away this woman because she couldn't bear the thought of having to deliver a stillborn child, NEEDLESSLY! The complete ignorance of the mother probably made this doctor SICK! Why would a mother deny a baby the right to life because of ignorance?
Childbirth is still a risk. People tend to forget this fact. Some babies stress out in labor, and start to die. Yeah, that's right: DIE. Their poor little hearts cannot take the stress and they start to skip or decrease heartbeats. That gives doctors a small window of opprotunity to save the baby. Thats what the heart monitor machines are for. Duh.
To think that babies born from c-sections are troubled in life is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Who is Oprah anyway? Maybe all of you weirdos who actually think this and who would be willing to let your child die or develop brain damage (from the lack of oxygen during the time you're deciding whether or not to deliver via c-section) should focus your energy on the joy of being able to conceive and have a child. There are millions of people out there who cannot experience this. They spend thousands of dollars to try to conceive via in-vitro or other options. Why don't you be thankful instead of practicing your stupid voodoo?
To sum this up: I had a c-section with my son. No, I didn't dream of giving birth this way. But my son almost died, and I owe his life to the quick response of his doctors. There wasn't enough time for an epidural. I had general anestesia. The recovery sucked. I have a huge scar. The scar tissue still hurts sometimes. But so what. I have a beautiful, healthy, gorgeous child, and I would not do one thing different.
I hope that baby survived. I will pray for it.

Turn away a woman that was IN labor?? And a woman who has had a history of natural births? That woman in the news, went ahead and had a natural delivery anyway and the baby turned out fine... AGAINST the so-called "expertise" of the idiot doctor. And it wouldn't have been on the news if other experts and a lot of people opposed cesareans.

"If you're so pissed because it's done this way in this country, maybe you should move back to India where everything is according to you beliefs and culture."
"If the woman wants to go have a baby in the equivalent of the dirt in India (or the sand in Venice), then go do it."
You're RASCISTS.

First of all I'm not from India. LEARN HOW TO READ. Doctors in India get sued just as much as in America. Just because my friends' 20 aunts and uncles were born through natural delivery does NOT MEAN they were poor. They LIVED to grow up and live SUCESSFULLY (not in the "dirt" of India). It PROVES my point that women in America are being prescribed cesarean too often, simply because doctors lack the medical expertise and common knowledge. They give the WRONG advice to patients too often.

I OPPOSE doctors because I have too often seen how patients just go right ahead and pay thousands of dollars in medical bills for procedures that DID NOT HAVE TO BE DONE or were done WRONG and never knew it!

When I meant hospitals were "public", I meant that they are there to HELP people, NOT turn them away. I KNOW that hospitals have a right to turn away people. But that proves my point about doctors wanting to make money. They're afraid of being sued.

I would rather be sued than turn away a sick person in need. If that person does not want to agree to do things my way, but IT'S AN EMERGENCY and is ASKING for my medical attention right away, then I will not turn him/ her away.

"Did a doctor touch you inapproriately or something at some point in your life?" Maybe YOU like doctors doing that to you, but I don't. I'm not as stupid as you to fall for such a thing.
GROW UP for once in your life! I don't deal with childish comments like that. It's obvious YOU'RE the one with a mental imbalance and SICK THOUGHTS.

If you want to OBEY doctors THAT HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF INTELLIGENCE AS A PARROT and make them more money for the wrong reasons, then go right ahead. You're buying into an ILLUSION and a well-marketed illusion. Just remember, those "miracle" doctors are the same idiots you may have gone to college with and drank 10 beers and seen cheating on exams.

TALK ABOUT GULLIBLE!

Thank you Lando & Tina!!! I was SO outraged by this ridiculous ranting and raving of Lisa's that I couldn't think straight enough to issue a rebuttal! You did it for me! Anyone insane enough to think that it's okay to give birth "naturally" when a C-section is in order - - - well, like Lisa said, go have your baby in the sands of Venice and you can't bring a lawsuit, nor can your family when you've died in childbirth.

The ranting about the harmful effects of a C-section are beyond belief. I know PLENTY of messed up people who were all born without being a C-section! In fact, it seems a C-section would LESS harmful to the child cause they don't have be forced out the mother's body, therefore, less trauma to the CHILD. And that's who it's supposed to be all about, right???

As for everyone in India or whatever never having C-sections, I just read a story about a woman in Mexico whose baby died cause she needed a C-section but her village was 8 hours from a doctor and she couldn't make it in time. So, next time she was in labor, she felt the same situation going on inside her, as far as the baby not being able to get out, and SHE GAVE HERSELF A C-SECTION. I saw the pictures of her scar and also of her healthy 4 year old child.

Doctors are God's Healers in this world and if you don't like it, PLEASE DO WITHOUT THE SERVICES OF A DOCTOR. EVER. You don't deserve to be healed when you are so ungrateful.

Well, that's why they're doctors, they make the recommendation and if you don't like it and the doctor doesn't agree with you, then they can decline to treat you and send you somewhere else. It's that simple, you don't like their diagnosis or treatment, then go someplace else. Also, hospitals are not public companies, they're basically privately owned, some of them are corporations, and so are the doctors, read your letter again, it's so full of "hear-say" no facts. Let's say that the patient wanted "natural birth" and the doctors advice was to have a "C section", if the doctor followed the patients wish and something happens and the family of the patient sues the doctor. What do you think the court would say if they found out that the professional judgement of the doctor would be to do a "C section" because it would benefit the patient and reduce risk. But the doctor, following the patients "request" to do a natural childbirth, did just that and something happened? The court would tell the doctor this "you're the doctor, you should have know what is good for the patient" You see, just because the patients wants it doesn't mean it's right for the patient, that's why doctors have the right to turn away patients that don't agree with their treatment plan. If you're so pissed because it's done this way in this country, maybe you should move back to India where everything is according to you beliefs and culture.

I mean really? This report seems like a strange rant of some sort due to some kind of mental imbalance. Did a doctor touch you inapproriately or something at some point in your life? Did a doctor perhaps divorce you or something?

I find it entirely reasonable that a doctor should turn away a patient who refuses to follow his/her medical advice. That sounds absolutely fine to me. If the woman wants to go have a baby in the equivalent of the dirt in India (or the sand in Venice), then go do it. Go drop trough where there's nobody to sue later. This doctor clearly had a solid reason for not wanting to get involved in a natural birth. I have zero problem with a doctor saying, "You won't follow my advice, so the risk is to great for me. I cannot treat you". That's the RIGHT decision, whether you like it or not.

"You rich doctors?" This is one of the dumbest examples of painting with a broad brush I've ever seen. A large amount of doctors are struggling to stay in business due to the cost of malpractice insurance. Premiums can run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Current enrollment in medical school is slipping, enough that there's a trend toward a day where doctors become scarce. All due to the astronimical price of education and insurances.

Why don't you do even the smallest bit of research before spewing such drivel? You sound like an idiot otherwise.