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Report: #1500788

Complaint Review: Banner Ford Mandeville, LA - Mandeville Louisiana

  • Submitted:
  • Updated:
  • Reported By: Qui Tam — Baton Rouge Louisiana United States
  • Banner Ford Mandeville, LA 1943 N. Causeway Blvd Mandeville, Louisiana United States

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Prior to going into the specifics I think it is important to note that the Federal Trade Commission recently issued an official finding that, “SPOT DELIVERY” IS ANTICIPATORY THEFT AND ALWAYS VIOLATES THE TRUTH IN LENDING ACT". 

Banner Ford utilizes the fraudulent, illegal and deceptive practice of something known as Yo-Yo Financing and or Spot Delivery.  I was unaware of such a thing until I had the experience detailed below.  Consumer's should be aware of this scam so they do not fall victim to these fraudulent and deceptive schemes and the public should certainly be aware to never attempt to purchase an automobile from Banner Ford in Mandeville, LA or to ever attempt to buy an automobile where Ivan Lopez or Joshua Spell.  These two individuals should be in jail rather than working in a car dealership.

October 2, 2020

Through my years of experience dealing with car dealers I already know walking in that I am going to be dealing with salesmen and managers who will normally either have a cheap toupe or a fedora hat (typically the salesman has the fedora only because he cant afford the cheap toupe that most managers sport). When I walked into Banner Ford with a friend who was looking for a vehicle, nothing was out of the normal from what is typical. 

The used car salesman, Ivan Lopez, of course knew nothing about the actual vehicle he was showing, but was an expert on the "etched windows", "nitrogen filled tires and the Ford care plan that guaranteed to get blood stains out of the seats if needed. So, it was no surprise when Mr. Lopez started his negotitations, in between worrying about having to go feed his dog, that all these great extras came with an additional $900 price tag. I also was a little taken aback, but not totally shocked, when Mr. Lopez was filming us looking at the vehicle to send to another potential buyer for which I assumed was an attempt to start a bidding war.

Anyhow, when the negotiations started on financing the vehicle my friend, who does have sub-prime credit, informed Mr. Lopez that she had secured pre-approved credit from a bank to purchase the vehicle, but Mr. Lopez informed her that he could get her much better terms through one of Banner Ford's associated lenders and it was "much easier" to do it this way.  She agreed filled out a credit application, provided Mr. Lopez with all the information he requested and told Mr. Lopez that she was prepared to put down $2500 towards the purchase of the vehicle.  He took this information to his manager and came back with "great news".

He told her that Global Financial Services had agreed to finance the loan contingent on her ability to put a little more money down and that he was not going to be able to provide her the $900 worth of "extras" she never wanted in the first place (Im not sure, nor did I see if in fact he went and replaced the nitrogen in the tires with regular air).  She agreed to put down $3500 and to a 54 month term at a usury interest rate and after another visit to the manager Mr. Lopez, whose primary conern was still that he needed to leave to feed his dog, returned with the great news that Global Financial had accepted the terms and the financing was done- just had to go next door to the finance department and sign the paperwork and she would be on her way with her new vehicle!!

Mr. Lopez then escorted over to the finance office to sign the paperwork where a Mr. Walter Butler with the finance department informed the buyer of more great news!! He had "worked things around with Global Financial" for her and was able to get her an even better APR lowering her monthly note.  He even informed her he was able to "work his magic" and get them to throw in GAP insurance with the "deal" (of course we learned later that he also threw in another $900 on the bill to cover this gap insurance). Buyer was explained that Global financial had funded her loan and was informed of the interest rate, her monthly payment amount and when the payments were due, and all she had to do was sign when prompted in the electronic signature box on his desk as he cycled through all the documents she was signing on his computer that the screen was facing him and not viewable by the buyer. 

The buyer was not informed of what she was signing nor was she given an opportunity to review the documents she was signing.  After buyer handed over her $3500 down payment the deal was "done".  Buyer was provided with page 1 and 2 of a six page contract and a copy of the Banner Ford Purchase Agreement. "Done deal" and buyer was instructed to return to the used car lot to meet her salesman and get her temporary tag as well as obtrain full coverage insurance on "her" vehicle.

"The Switch" As the buyer was backing out to head to the used car lot a Banner Ford representative came running out and told her a "mistake" had been made on her paperwork and she needed to come back and sign for everything again.  once she was inside she was told again just to sign sign sign on the electronic key pad and the only explanation Walter Butler provided was that he had negotiated a lower interest rate with Global Financial and she was signing for this lower interest rate, but come to find out a week later what she was signing was another RISC but this time and without disclosing this to her they slipped in a spot delivery addendum which stated that if Banner Ford could not obtain financing she had to return the vehicle.  Again, she left with only a copy of page 1 and 2 of a six page contract and certainly was not provided a copy of this new Addendum.

Buyer then proceeded back to the used car lot where she had to wait on Ivan who had left to finally feed his dog.  When he finally returned and the title was done with Global Financial as the lien holder and she was provided a temp plate and title which based on this information buyer obtained full coverage insurance in her name for her car.  Finally after 4 or 5 hours buyer left in her new vehicle she had just purchased. 

Fast forward about a week later and enter the Yo-Yo and the Joshua Spell the general manger with the bad toupe who looks exactly like Mickey Abbott from seinfeld. Buyer receives a phone call from Ivan informing her that her financing- which she had already been approved for meeting thier requirements for more money down and a higher interest rate had fallen through. Buyer was told she had to provide the lender, who had already approved her and she already signed a contract with needed more information to approve the financing, buyer provided this information which resulted in another phone call requiring more information.  Since the buyer had already been approved by Global Financial and signed a contract with them she was not interested in playing these needless back and forth games.  Buyer pointed out that the contract, or at least what was disclosed to her, and the copies of what she signed was provided for her contained a truth in lending clause and also that all deals were final. 

She was then informed that there was a seperate "Spot Delivery Addendum" that she had signed and she needed to either provide the information or return the vehicle she had already purchased.  She was also threatened by Joshua Spell that she either provide the further information requested or return the vehicle, Mr. Spell went on to further threaten her that if she did not immediately return the vehicle he would contact the St. Tammany Parish District Attorney and seek criminal charges against her for fraud. 

Buyer immediately requested a copy of this "addendum" and alll of the paperwork she blindly signed to purchase the vehicle.  She was origionally told that could not be provided because the paperwork was "locked in someone's office who was out for the week".  Knowing this was a lie she demanded copies of the contract and all other paperwork and the next day received an e-mail with a hodge podge of incomplete documents compiled together in a way that clearly shows that some of the documents were fabricated and her electronic signature had been imposed on them.  Buyer has since then demanded a copy of the all the documents and has been denied to see them or completely ignorned.

They are continuing to ignore her requests and as Banner Ford has indicated earlier it is their intention to reposses what they claim is their vehicle and cast her with the costs of the illegal recovery and rental fee for the use of the vehicle she purchased but they claim belongs to them.

This is the most unethical, fraudulent and illegal transaction I have ever witnessed in a business transaction. The whole ordeal was a scam from the get to just to keep her down payment and take the vehicle back and sale it agian.

No one should ever do business with Banner Ford and Ivan Lopez and Joshua Spell should face state and federal criminal fraud charges.  And if being a bottom feeding scumb bag was a crime they would lock them up and throw away the key.

 

This report was posted on Ripoff Report on 10/11/2020 09:24 AM and is a permanent record located here: https://www.ripoffreport.com/report/banner-ford-mandeville-la/louisiana-joshua-spell-used-1500788. The posting time indicated is Arizona local time. Arizona does not observe daylight savings so the post time may be Mountain or Pacific depending on the time of year. Ripoff Report has an exclusive license to this report. It may not be copied without the written permission of Ripoff Report. READ: Foreign websites steal our content

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REBUTTALS & REPLIES:
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7Consumer
0Employee/Owner

#15 Author of original report

One Last Time

AUTHOR: Qui Tam - (United States)

POSTED: Sunday, October 18, 2020

 She was not given the opportunity to read the contract the first time she signed it, or the second contract they made her sign for whatever reason. Before leaving she was only provided with a copy of two pages of a multi-page contract. She has requested a copy of the full contract numerous times now and has been denied or ignored. How should she know the terms of the contract when Banner continues to deny her copies? Why? You claim that y’all con produce signed copies at a civil trial, so why can’t you provide her with those copies now? I suspect that you know if you were to provide her the contract you know you wouldn’t have a legal leg to stand on.

First off, you are obviously ignorant when it comes to the Code of Civil Procedure in Louisiana because no court would, or could, use a copy of a contract produced by the defense with the Plaintiff having been refused to review the contract. How can one review or understand something they can’t see, idiot. I’m being kind when I advise you to turn this over to Banner’s attorneys. You are going n way above your head and I just don’t feel like it even fair anymore for me not to advise you to consult with your attorney. Of course we cal always bill more when we have to fix problems our clients made worse by thinking they could handle it on their own. Above your pay grade pal.

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#14 Author of original report

No Remorse

AUTHOR: Qui Tam - (United States)

POSTED: Sunday, October 18, 2020

The only remorse she has is that she went to Banner Ford in Mandeville, LA. Home of the Spot Delivery Scam

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#13 Consumer Comment

Buyer Negligence and Buyer's Remorse

AUTHOR: coast - (United States)

POSTED: Sunday, October 18, 2020

Specifically, what details did a previous commentor provide that indicates he has any interest in or is an employee of the dealer? You previously evaded this subject. Let’s see if you dodge it again.

Here’s some news for you great speller: Toupe, negotitations, thier, alll, ignorned, reposses, agian and aboth are not words. Toupee, negotiations, their, all, ignored, repossess, again and both are words. You may also want to learn the difference between 'sale' and 'sell'.

"She agreed to put down $3500 and to a 54 month term at a usury interest rate"

Usury rates are unlawful; however, high interest rates are not. Dissatisfaction with the high interest rate is a case of buyer’s remorse.

"She, like everyone else in the world, knows that anytime you have deal with a car salesman they will no doubt try to pull shady stuff and she wanted some help with navigating that trap."

Too bad you failed to help your alleged friend with that navigation.

"Always make sure to ask to examine any and all documents you are asked by Mr. Butler to sign."

You still don’t get it. Always read ALL documents prior to signing. For some reason you still think that’s the case with just this particular dealer. I suspect that your 'friend' is imaginary and it was YOU that failed to read before signing.

"counsel is too busy preparing a lawsuit against you and Banner Ford"

Documentation will be required that supports your claims. The dealer will provide signed documentation that supports theirs. A signed contract is evidence that the buyer agreed to the terms. A civil court judge will not accept failure to read as an excuse.

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#12 Consumer Comment

Woulda...Coulda...Shoulda...

AUTHOR: Robert - (United States)

POSTED: Saturday, October 17, 2020

Why they haven't provided it to her is irrelevant. But since according to you her "counsel" is the one who told her not to submit the requested documents which started this entire issue, why isn't her "counsel" now communicating with them to provide the documents she wants?

It is not possible for you to know several specific details you mentioned and not be directly involved in this deal.
- There is nothing specific I mentioned that wasn't gathered from your own post or due to me being just a consumer with significantly more experience with financing than you claim to have. I think it would be very comical to find out what you insider information you think I had.

As for you to continue to say that I am somehow involved with this dealer, the comments I have said would have said regardless of the dealer involved. But since you are so convinced that I am involved with this dealer, I think you are a competitor of this dealer trying to make them look bad. Prove that you are not.

Good luck and hope your friend fully recovers and finds a much better "friend" to look out for her in the future.

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#11 Author of original report

The Truth About Banner Ford

AUTHOR: Qui Tam - (United States)

POSTED: Thursday, October 15, 2020

I appreciate you continuing to provide me with this wonderful information Mr. Banner Ford representative. Oh, I forgot you are just a random public citizen who also happens to know the specifics of the fraudulent and unethical deal in question- wink, wink. I feel like I have gained invaluable experience on how the mind of a true sociopath operates.

With that in mind, I will attempt to address the points you made in an attempt to justify the actions of Banner Ford and your unethical business practices. But first I want to provide some facts that will hopefully be useful to consumers that are considering buying a car from Banner Ford. I don't want these facts and warnings to be lost in all your white noise and victim blaming.

FACTS YOU SHOULD KNOW BEFORE DOING BUSINESS WITH BANNER FORD

1) Banner Ford engages in unethical, fraudulent and illegal transactions especially when a customer has sub-prime credit and/or limited financial means, In other words they target the most vulnerable consumer who has little means to fight back. This scam is commonly known as "yo-yo financing" or "spot delivery scams". This practice is illegal in most states and is called 'anticipatory theft' by the Federal Trade Commission. Sadly, dealerships like Banner Ford continue to utilize these scams on consumers.

2) Banner Ford uses deceptive sales practices to charge customer's outrageous amounts of money on rip-off dealer add-ons. In the transaction I witnessed the salesman told the buyer how the vehicle included "security window etching" making the completely false claim that this extra feature is mandated by law in Louisiana and Texas. The salesman also told the buyer the vehicle included new tires on the vehicle that were "special nitrogen filled tires" that would improve the vehicles performance in colder weather, and increase the life of the tire. Come to find out later these so-called special features were in fact included but with and additional cost of $900. Both these items are rip-offs and designed for the dealer to basically steal $900 from you. They is no laws mandating window etching, it provides no real security and if this is something you want you can do it yourself with a $20 kit from Amazon. The special "nitrogen filled tires" are laughable- first off, there is nothing special about the tires they are the same tires that go on any other car and there is no performance benefits to "nitrogen air" especially since the regular air that goes into a tire is about 80% nitrogen anyway. All they do is out a green marking on the stem and say that makes them special "nitrogen tires" and try to steal $900 from you.

3) Never deal with Ivan Lopez (salesman), Joshua Spell (used car manager) or Walter Butler (finance manger). They are all con artist who are will to use any and all means of unethical business practices and deception to scam you out of your money. These individuals should not have a license or be allowed to sale vehicles in the State of Louisiana. I am hopeful that Louisiana Used Car Commission as well as the Louisiana Motor Vehicle Commission agrees with me and the appropriate action is taken.

4) Never expect or assume that you are protected by the Fair Credit Reporting Act of the Truth In Lending Act. Banner For has no regards for the consumer's protections contained in these laws. To them the consumer has no rights regardless of what is required by law. I am hopeful the Louisiana Attorney General and the Federal Trade Commission will agree with me and hold the accountable.

5) Always make sure to ask to examine any and all documents you are asked by Mr. Butler to sign. Mr. Butler does not disclose the substance of the documents you are signing and attempt to get you to sign blindly without having the opportunity to review, Also make sure you sign a paper copy and sign anything electronically to his computer because you never know what document that electronic signature will be imposed on. Mr. Butler will try to only provide you with a very few copies of the documents you sign and these copies will have a black line through the box that contains your signature. It is very important you do not leave without an actual copy including signatures of all the documentation you sign. They do this so the following week when they come and try to take your car back you really don't have actual proof that you purchased the vehicle and they will claim the vehicle belongs to them and sorry about the car you traded in or the cash you put down for a down payment.

6) Be careful and adhere to this advice! Failure to do so could result in you receiving a call from them a week after you purchased your car demanding you return "their vehicle" which you just purchased back to the dealership within 48 hours of they will report you to the police. NEVER return your car to the dealership and hand it over to them. You purchased the car and it belongs to you not them. Don't fall for their yo-yo spot delivery scam.

7) Find another more reputable dealer. Do anything and everything to avoid having to deal with the con artist at Banner Ford.

Now I will address the nonsensical justifications from Banner Ford:

Now we know the truth. This "Pre-Approved" loan wasn't as set as you made it seem. As in a REAL "Pre-Approved" situation the lender hands you a check valid for up to a certain amount, where you already know the terms of the loan including interest rate and length of the loan. There is still a good chance that once she sent the car information to that lender, they would have done the same time. The "Oh it couldn't be worse" is just tunnel vision on your part.

Much like the "approved loan" Banner Ford signed in a contract to the buyer wasn't as REAL as they made it appear to be. Of course once again you are wrong because I personally have purchased a car with pre-approved financing in the past and the lender required a bill of sale on a specific vehicle before working up the terms of the loan and it worked out just fine. Of course, I was dealing with an ethical dealership who was not out to scam their customers. Would have done the same "time" I think you meant to say thing. So, if they would have done the exact same thing then they would have approved the loan- you make no sense. "tunnel vision"? You mean in the unethical and predatory Banner Ford finance world there are APR’s higher than 25.95%? That is loan shark rates.

You really have no idea about car financing, do you? The car is not "her" car, the finance company still retains a security interest in it. It may not be the dealer that repossesses it, but the lender. As the lender has the legal right to reposes the car if they have a reasonable concern that the contract will not be fulfilled. Yes, both sides are bound by the contract, but if that contract states they can request documentation and she fail to provide it, they can cancel the loan. If she fails to meet ANY provision, they can cancel the loan. So, she may think she can just continue to pay on it, and if they let her great. But don't be shocked if the first issue she has they take the car with absolutely no remorse.

No, I am no expert on car financing, and I am really not an expert on unethical, illegal and fraudulent car financing, But, Banner Ford just provided me a crash course in exactly how that works. I know simple math, and I know common sense and there really isn't that much more to it. Yes, the car is titled in her name, and is insured in her name with Global Financial being listed as the lien holder on the car protecting their security interest in the remaining balance on the vehicle. The buyer also has interest in the vehicle as she made a down payment of $3500, which represents 25% of the total purchase price of the vehicle which most would consider a significant financial interest in the vehicle. The dealership has no right to reposes the vehicle they are neither the registered owner nor the lien holder so if they were to reposes the vehicle that would be theft. Banner Ford has has $0 security interest in the vehicle. Furthermore, the suggestion that the lender would have a right to reposes the vehicle arbitrarily or based on your fabricated term of "reasonable suspicion" that is solely based on an anticipatory opinion of what someone may, or may not do, in the future is absolute absurdity and crazy talk.

Of course Banner Ford refuses to provide a copy of the entire contract for the buyer to fully know what obligations she has to the lender, but I can promise you without a doubt that nowhere in the contract does it state that, "lender can request documentation and she fails to provide it, they can cancel the loan." Are you insane? Her obligation to the lender is to make the agreed upon payments on time and by law the only way they can reposes the vehicle is if she becomes more than 60 days late on her payments. Of course she thinks she can continue to pay on it what else is she supposed to think? And you stated, "if they let her great"? Why would a lender not let her pay her agreed upon payments? That is just a dumb statement. And you also are suggesting that because she didn't allow herself to be a victim of Banner Ford's Spot Delivery Scam that she will be punished by Global Financial watching every move she make and just waiting to pounce if she makes one wrong move. Wow! I will be sure to tell her to let Global Financial know that Banner Ford is threating her with retaliation by Global Financial.

You said this a couple of times. But if it is not the place for you to assist her, why in the world did you go to the dealership? Was it to look at the car and make sure that the color matched her shoes? I really hope you wouldn't have this "hands off" approach if you see your friend about to run a red light and figure it isn't your place to tell her to stop. Which brings up one last question. If she was in an accident, why is she having to finance another car? Why isn't the insurance company making her "whole"? Perhaps she should ask her legal counsel that question.

Because I had the day off and she asked me to ride with her. She, like everyone else in the world, knows that anytime you have deal with a car salesman they will no doubt try to pull shady stuff and she wanted some help with navigating that trap. Why should you care if I was there, or not. You come across as almost angry that I was there. Or is it that Banner's spot delivery scam works best when the victim has no witnesses that can attest to what was said, understood and agreed upon? I imagine you wish I would have stayed home that day. In fact, I told her the color did not match her shoes but she decided the purchase the vehicle anyhow. I'm not a back seat driver and sometimes it is not safe for a passenger in the vehicle to interfere with the driver, so if I see her about to run a red light it would not be my place to try and stop her because she is the driver and she may have reason she is running the red light. Perhaps she noticed a large group of car salesmen in the middle of the intersection, and this is my "hands-off" approach.

Which brings me to my last example that you are a POS. Victim blaming is a tactic often used by con-artist who are willing to anything to keep the con going. Just because this women did not become a victim to your scam and dismissed your empty threats all of a sudden she is the problem you said this is all her fault because she had shitty credit, yet you approved her for a loan and took her $3500 and now you are making accusations that she was not involved in an accident just to victim blame I guess. Well she was, her insurance company did make her whole which is where you go your $3500 from and there is no need for her to talk to counsel, besides counsel is too busy preparing a lawsuit against you and Banner Ford.

I have done what I needed to do and that is alert potential consumers to your scam.  I refuse to argue anymore with an idiot because people might get confused.

 

 

 

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#10 Author of original report

Should Produce a copy of the contract. Should have provided one when she signed

AUTHOR: Qui Tam - (United States)

POSTED: Thursday, October 15, 2020

You still can’t admit you represent Banner Ford can you? It is not possible for you to know several specific details you mentioned and not be directly involved in this deal. So, you still have not answered my question - why does Banner Ford continue to deny her request for a complete copy of the contract?

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#9 Consumer Comment

Now the truth comes out

AUTHOR: Robert - (United States)

POSTED: Thursday, October 15, 2020

First off sorry, but contrary to your belief no one who had posted here works for the dealer. You posted on a PUBLIC web site and as such the PUBLIC is allowed to respond, and the PUBLIC may not always agree with you.

As for spelling, I didn't come here saying I was a spelling genius.  However by you trying to make a thing out of it the only thing that is comical is in trying to call out my issues, you have a few yourself.  Do you even know what is wrong with this statement you made?

I mean I know you cant even spell and all, but you cant be that intellectually challenged to use that to try and pass your fraud off as legitimate.  

That wasn't even your only issue.  Can you explain how "agian" fit into the context of your report?  When did lose become loose?   But let's get beyond that.  

The buyer never knew what the actual interest rate from the outside lender would have been because she was never provided with a purchase order to find out. And obviously you ('we') aka- Banner Ford know that it is almost impossible to get a higher interest rate than 25.95%. -

Now we know the truth. This "Pre-Approved" loan wasn't as set as you made it seem. As in a REAL "Pre Approved" situation the lender hands you a check valid for up to a certain amount, where you already know the terms of the loan including interest rate and length of the loan. There is still a good chance that once she sent the car information to that lender they would have done exactly the same time. The "Oh it couldn't be worse" is just tunnel vision on your part.  

 She is going to keep the car because she just purchased the car and signed a contract for such. Her only obligation is to pay as agreed per the terms of the contract and until such a time that she defaults on the contract the vehicle belongs to her.

- You really have no idea about car financing do you? The car is not "her" car, the finance company still retains a security interest in it. It may not be the dealer that repossesses it, but the lender. As the lender has the legal right to reposes the car if they have a reasonable concern that the contract will not be fulfilled.  Yes both sides are bound by the contract, but if that contract states they can request documentation and she fails to provide it, they can cancel the loan.  If she fails to meet ANY provision they can cancel the loan.  So she may think she can just continue to pay on it, and if they let her..great. But don't be shocked if the first issue she has they take the car with absolutly no remorse.    

Furthermore, it is not my job nor should I have to alert a friend and protect them from con artist and fraudsters. In the world I do business in we do things ethically and honestly and this intervention is not required. Thankfully the buyer has the protections afforded to her under the law that protect her from con artist such as yourself which eliminates the need for me to intervene. -

You said this a couple of times. But if it is not the place for you to assist her, why in the world did you go to the dealership? Was it to look at the car and make sure that the color matched her shoes? I really hope you wouldn't have this "hands off" approach if you see your friend about to run a red light and figure it isn't your place to tell her to stop.   Which brings up one last question.  If she was in an accident, why is she having to finance another car?  Why isn't the insurance company making her "whole"?  Perhaps she should ask her legal counsel that question.

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#8 Consumer Comment

Should Have??

AUTHOR: coast - (United States)

POSTED: Thursday, October 15, 2020

"The buyer was not provided the opportunity to read the financial agreements prior to signing"

That is incorrect. The buyer had the opportunity when the seller said, 'sign here'.

"I agree that the buyer could have and maybe should have requested to review the documents prior to signing"

You still don’t get it or you wouldn’t have written, "should have".

"but as most consumers do she did not question what the finance representative and took him at his word"

That is another incorrect statement. Most consumers have the common sense to read a contact prior to signing. It’s not only about integrity; the buyer should always read the contract to ensure there are no errors or oversights. You are defending your friend’s neglect to conceal your failure to help safeguard her interests.

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#7 Author of original report

Response to Too Stupid to by Alive

AUTHOR: Qui Tam - (United States)

POSTED: Thursday, October 15, 2020

When you are a con artist don't you just hate that pesky little thing they call the law. Imagine the scams and frauds Banner Ford could pull off if the law didn't contain protections for consumers. Without the law your disgusting threats might actually mean something, Without the law fraudsters like you could live in a utopia where you would be allowed to just slip anything you wanted in a contract and not have to disclose it to the consumer.

If this were the case Banner would probably be taking back the cars they sold to their customers on the same day. Sadly for you, we live in a civilized society and have law to regulate the behavior of fraudsters like yourself who attempt to skirt the fringes of the law and do business in a manner that is not acceptable to a fair and just civilized society. Again, I may be too stupid to live, but at least I know how to spell!

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#6 Consumer Suggestion

You are too stupid to be alive

AUTHOR: Flint - (Afghanistan)

POSTED: Wednesday, October 14, 2020

First, the document you posted is not an FTC document.  It's a public comment from some random guy.  The FTC has no problem with yo-yo financing.  It's not a "scam".  It's just what happens when you have s**+**y credit, which in turn is caused by stupidity.

The time to ask for printed copies of any documents you are signing is before you sign them.  Apparently, for all your legal sophistication, you failed to do this one basic thing for your friend.  And any adult should know that you never sign any contract without reading it first, including checking the sale amount, interest rate, and whether or not you are actually approved for the loan.

Oh yeah, and what happened to the "preapproved loan"?

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#5 Author of original report

Response to- 'What happened to the Pre-approved Loan?'

AUTHOR: Qui Tam - (United States)

POSTED: Wednesday, October 14, 2020

But what is almost as sad is how many times we see people post on this site about their friend. Where they say all of these things that the dealer did wrong, and how they have so much experience buying cars. Yet time and time again, these same people(like yourself) let their friends continue with the sale while they sit there doing nothing.

Actually what is sad is when a representative of a company poses as a consumer to respond to this report.  You did not do a very good job of hiding this fact, you obviously don't have a mastery of the English language and you need to learn how to spell.  Perhaps this is why you are forced to make a living with a company full of fraudsters and con artist who lack the back bone to stand behind their fraudulent business practices.

On the question of what happened to the pre-approved loan the answer is nothing. And nothing happened with the pre-approved loan because as I am sure that you know, when you go to a dealership with a pre-approved loan the lender requires they be sent the purchase order for a specific vehicle so they can put the loan together.  In this case the buyer was not given that opportunity because she was told by Banner it would be much better just to do everything in house there.  We aboth know the real reason and that is if Banner would have use the buyers outside lender then they would not have been able to pocket a portion of the $9600 in finance charges the buyer agreed to pay.

Furthermore, it is not my job nor should I have to alert a friend and protect them from con artist and fraudsters. In the world I do business in we do things ethically and honestly and this intervention is not required.  Thankfully the buyer has the protections afforded to her under the law that protect her from con artist such as yourself which eliminates the need for me to intervene.

 She agreed to put down $3500 and to a 54 month term at a usury interest rate

- Why would she agree to that? Why would YOU allow her to agree to that? As by your own account of the situation she had alreay been "Pre-Approved" for a loan through her bank. Where since you call this interest rate usurous we can only figure that that rate was better.

She agreed to that because those are the terms that Global Financial agreed to offer her, or at least this is what Banner represented, and she needed a vehicle to replace her vehicle that was totaled in a recent near death collision. Your salesman knew this as she arrived in a rental car in a brace for her broken back. Another thing that is "so sad" is that Banner has no moral problems with pulling a fraud on an injured and handicapped buyer. Given this, I can only probably assume that Banner discriminates on the basis of race as well. Yes again was already (not 'alreay') pre-approved however Banner was not interested then and is not interested now in facilitating her getting outside financing because under that scenario Banner could not directly profit from the usurious (not 'usurous') interest rate of 25.95%. The buyer never knew what the actual interest rate from the outside lender would have been because she was never provided with a purchase order to find out. And obviously you ('we') aka- Banner Ford know that it is almost impossible to get a higher interest rate than 25.95%.

The buyer was not informed of what she was signing nor was she given an opportunity to review the documents she was signing.

-Incorrect. The buyer did not request to look over the documents before signing, the buyer did not request to have it explained, and the buyer did not refuse to continue until she was able to. The buyer is in control. They are not forcing her to do anything, she could have gotten up and walked out if her requests were not being met.

Correct- Mr. Banner Ford representative who think he knows the details of this transaction. It is amazing to me that Banner Ford has no problem admitting if a buyer trust and believes what they are being told, rather lied to about, by your Finance Department and they do not specifically ask about every detail of the contract they are signing then Banner is certainly not going to explain it to them or provide the buyer copies of the documents they signed electronically. And one of the pages she did receive of the contract had a specific clause that had to be signed off on stating that the buyer was provided with a copy of the contract and provided the opportunity to review it before signing, but I guess Banner thinks if they don't ask then don't give it to them. And don't even give them a full copy after they make numerous requests for such. And again, she thought she was doing business with a reputable dealership who would not try to scam her.

Since the buyer had already been approved by Global Financial and signed a contract with them she was not interested in playing these needless back and forth games.

-Seems like you are leaving a few things out here. Such as what is this documenation that is being requested? It is standard for Fianance companies to request proof of what is being reported. An again by your narrative she didn't refuse to send the additional information because she couldn't prove it, but she didn't want to. In that case they may have every right to cancel the loan.

No Mr. Banner Ford representative, I am not leaving anything out. It does not matter what documentation (not 'documenation') is being requested because she already produce all the documentation requested when she was applying for the financing and she provided the requested proof of what is was being reported. This is why Global Financial approved the loan, or at least that's what Banner told her and signed a contract with her claiming the same. She did not send the documents later requested because she had already been approved for the financing, had been threatened by Banner to be reported for some alleged crime and threatened Banner would take the vehicle back that she already purchased. Given all of this and realizing at this point she was the victim of a spot delivery scam on the advice of counsel she did not send the information. Why does Banner continue to refuse to send her a copy of the full contracts she signed the bait contract and the switch contract? Numerous requests and no documents. This is because Banner this would not be in their best interest and expose their scam. They have no right to cancel their loan unless the buyer defaults on the loan, or if Banner had her sign a false and misleading contract that is not actually valid because they lied to her about the financing? If this is the case then it is Banner who is responsible for the loan and guilty of contract fraud.

Buyer pointed out that the contract, or at least what was disclosed to her, and the copies of what she signed was provided for her contained a truth in lending clause and also that all deals were final.

- Wait a minute, Is that the same contract you said she never got and has been refused to see?

You can wait a minute or you can wait for over two weeks which is how long the buyer has been requesting, and denied, a full

copy of her contract. When she initially signed the contract she was provided with a copy of page 1 and 2 of 6. When Banner tried to pull the con a week later she again demanded to be provided with copies of all the documents she signed and has only been provided now with pages 1, 3 and 6 of 6. I guess by luck one of the pages does include the truth in lending statement with as you know if not very good for Banner and its probably one of the pages they should have withheld like they are doing the others. What's so sad is that you guys aren't even competent enough to pull off a good con. So, yes she is still being refused the right to see the full contract and the other fabricated documents she was made to blindly sign, Little Mickey Abbott must be too important, I know he holds the high ranking executive position as the used car manager but, to even communicate directly with the buyer and had done so through his salesmen. Coward!

This is the most unethical, fraudulent and illegal transaction I have ever witnessed in a business transaction. The whole ordeal was a scam from the get to just to keep her down payment and take the vehicle back and sale it agian.

- Most Spot Delivery scams involve the buyer being moved to loan with less favorable terms. By your own narrative, this is not the case here. In this case they told her to either provide the documentation or return the car. But she refused to provide any additional documation. So while she may not like the terms she agreed to, had she provided the documents it is possible she would have still had the car. Remember by your own words this is a case of her not wanting to provide documentation, not that she didn't have it. So why would she not do that once they said they were going to repo the car? In this case this seems to be your sub-prime friend getting some bad advice(perhaps from you) and not actually a Spot Delivery.

Yes you are correct that most Spot Delivery scams involve the buyer being moved to loan with less favorable terms. Notice there you said most which means not all. In this instance when Banner starts at the top with 25.95% APR there is not much room for less favorable terms. This spot delivery scam has to do with Banner wanting to make a big chunk of money from the $9600 im finance charges included in the contract and Banner, this includes yourself, knows that is the car is purchased with financing that Banner is not involved with then they miss out on profiting off the outrageous finance charges. This is why when Banner threatened the buyer and demanded she return a vehicle she just purchased she was not given the option of providing her own means of financing because banner would loose out of the predatory finance charges on that vehicle. She is just fine with the terms she agreed to in her contract to buy the car. And you are admitting that Banner, you, threatened her that you would reposes, steal, the vehicle she just purchased from you if she did not return the car to you, What kind of idiot would do something like that? She does not have to provide anything to you and she certainly does not have to meet your illogical demands regardless how much you threaten her. She is going to keep the car because she just purchased the car and signed a contract for such. Her only obligation is to pay as agreed per the terms of the contract and until such a time that she defaults on the contract the vehicle belongs to her. If you, Banner, is so dumb as to attempt to illegally steal a vehicle that you just sold someone charges will be filed accordingly. Your scam involved anticipatory theft and I surely hope you don't follow through with actually stealing the car. The only bad advice my friend got was from you and the rest of the con artist at Banner Ford.

Its comical that you state' 'this is not actually a spot delivery' when the fabricated document you produced in an attempt to justify this fraud was titled, 'Spot Delivery Addendum'. I mean I know you cant even spell and all, but you cant be that intellectually challenged to use that to try and pass your fraud off as legitimate.

I will walk down this road with you as far as you want to go, but I promise when we reach the end I will still be standing

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#4 Author of original report

Expected- If the facts are against then start name calling

AUTHOR: Qui Tam - (United States)

POSTED: Wednesday, October 14, 2020

 You obviously feel you are smarter than me and the individual who presented findings to the FTC. That may be the case but I believe your response proves who is the mental midget in this situation. There never exists ANY situation where it is appropriate to not disclose the provisions of a contract, especially when the contract is not in front of a person and all they can see is an electronic box to sign. Congress didn’t think doing this was stupid which is why they passed the Truth In Lending Act. Lying by omission is still considered lying.

Why refuse to provide a copy of the entire contract after being asked numerous times? Because it would expose your illegal scam that’s why. The pre-approved financing was not used or thought needed because consumer was informed she was financed and signed a contract. Why would she apply for another loan that would be duplicative? And the real reason is that without financing from an associated lender Banner Ford couldn’t get their hands on the nine grand in finance charges.

Why illegally threaten to take the car and not provide the opportunity for the outside financing to be used again Banner Ford wouldn’t make the money on the absurd finance charges. What happened to the copies of the complete contract that the buyer signed that you’ve refused to provide? I may be too stupid to be alive but at least I’m not a con artist scumbag car salesman

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#3 Author of original report

Response by "Coast'- "Head for the Exit"

AUTHOR: Qui Tam - (United States)

POSTED: Wednesday, October 14, 2020

The buyer neglected to read the purchase and financial agreements prior to signing. If a seller refuses to provide printed documentation prior to signing then that should be viewed as a huge red flag. Time to walk.

You failed to exercise your 'years of experience' to shield your friend from the hustlers of an auto dealership.

The buyer was not provided the opportunity to read the financial agreements prior to signing, nor was the buyer provided with a copy of the purchase and financial agreements after signing.  I agree that the buyer could have and maybe should have requested to review the documents prior to signing, but as most consumers do she did not question what the finance representative and took him at his word assuming he was being honest and not attempting to mislead her. Given what the buyer now knows, its questionable if she would have asked to review the documents if she would have been provided an accurate and complete set of documents.  Banner up until this point still refuses to provide her with a copy of all the documents she signed.

It is not my place to, nor should I have to 'shield my friend from the hustlers of an auto dealership'. Furthermore, in my experience with buying vehicles I had never seen this scam pulled so I had no idea myself what was going on. They call it a 'scam' and they call auto dealers 'hustlers' (your word) for good reason because they are skilled at the art of pulling off fraudulent schemes to unsuspecting consumers.

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#2 Consumer Comment

What happened to the Pre-Approved Loan?

AUTHOR: Robert - (United States)

POSTED: Wednesday, October 14, 2020

She agreed to put down $3500 and to a 54 month term at a usury interest rate
- Why would she agree to that? Why would YOU allow her to agree to that? As by your own account of the situation she had alreay been "Pre-Approved" for a loan through her bank. Where since you call this interest rate usurous we can only figure that that rate was better.

The buyer was not informed of what she was signing nor was she given an opportunity to review the documents she was signing.
-Incorrect. The buyer did not request to look over the documents before signing, the buyer did not request to have it explained, and the buyer did not refuse to continue until she was able to. The buyer is in control. They are not forcing her to do anything, she could have gotten up and walked out if her requests were not being met.

Since the buyer had already been approved by Global Financial and signed a contract with them she was not interested in playing these needless back and forth games.
-Seems like you are leaving a few things out here. Such as what is this documenation that is being requested? It is standard for Fianance companies to request proof of what is being reported. An again by your narrative she didn't refuse to send the additional information because she couldn't prove it, but she didn't want to.  In that case they may have every right to cancel the loan.

Buyer pointed out that the contract, or at least what was disclosed to her, and the copies of what she signed was provided for her contained a truth in lending clause and also that all deals were final.
- Wait a minute, Is that the same contract you said she never got and has been refused to see?

This is the most unethical, fraudulent and illegal transaction I have ever witnessed in a business transaction. The whole ordeal was a scam from the get to just to keep her down payment and take the vehicle back and sale it agian.

- Most Spot Delivery scams involve the buyer being moved to loan with less favorable terms.   By your own narrative, this is not the case here.  In this case they told her to either provide the documentation or return the car.  But she refused to provide any additional documation.  So while she may not like the terms she agreed to, had she provided the documents it is possible she would have still had the car.  Remember by your own words this is a case of her not wanting to provide documentation, not that she didn't have it.  So why would she not do that once they said they were going to repo the car?  In this case this seems to be your sub-prime friend getting some bad advice(perhaps from you) and not actually a Spot Delivery.

But what is almost as sad is how many times we see people post on this site about their friend.  Where they say all of these things that the dealer did wrong, and how they have so much experience buying cars.  Yet time and time again, these same people(like yourself) let their friends continue with the sale while they sit there doing nothing.  

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#1 Consumer Comment

Head for the Exit

AUTHOR: coast - (United States)

POSTED: Tuesday, October 13, 2020

The buyer neglected to read the purchase and financial agreements prior to signing. If a seller refuses to provide printed documentation prior to signing then that should be viewed as a huge red flag. Time to walk.

You failed to exercise your 'years of experience' to shield your friend from the hustlers of an auto dealership.

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