KEYLESS4U (ebay ID) Keyless4U, Inc. Fraud & Theft Wellsboro, Pennsylvania

If I understand this right, you agreed to knowingly circumvent buying the cluster though e-bay to avoid the additional fees charged from e-bay. Is this correct? It must be! You seem to to know E-bays Rules and Regulations by heart and  then chose to make a direct purchase from the seller anyway.  If the part is so rare and hard to find you could have hit buy it now or if you were the highest bidder you would have consummated the sale through E-bay and would have got your cluster.  So you knowingly agreed to purchase the cluster outside the E-bay forum which is set up for your protection as a buyer. Choices have consequences my friend.  So by you trying to screw E-bay out of a few bucks it cost you the purchase of your coveted cluster. You both committed a fraudulent act against E-bay. You both should be booted off E-bay for a set amount of time 6 months to a year or so would be fair. I can't believe your bringing this to anyone's attention on any forum. Seems like you are as big a crook as the guys you are complaining about. At least we know they did the right thing in the end by returning your money and I think that is more than you deserve. Your complaint just shows me that they are more honest than you are. If the shoe were on the other foot would you have returned their money? I think not!  and as for anything that happened after your defrauding of E-bay are just consequences of your choice and you have no others to blame but yourself.

The man in the mirror is calling the kettle black.

Criminals do the darnedest things, your hilarious!

You made my my day, I got such a laugh out loud at your post

Thank you!  :  )   LMAO!!! 

This seems to be more of a service issue. I realise that he tried to avoid the fees and thats not a good sign to begin with. But you did get your entire ammount of money that you gave the seller back without having to file a claime. Considering that something could have happend similar to Steves report outside of ebay is possible. But you also seem to link the fact that you had to wait for your product that would never arrive as fraud in itself and the fact that you received your money back seems to create a huge confliction. Based on your report I can assume that you're upset but I really doubt that this is a professional con job.

Steve,

Thanks for taking the time to actually read all the facts and respond to other readers. Your concerns were well taken and I agree. Mistakes happen and I agree that a company should not be punished if the err resulted from an honest mistake.

But, in your example you specifically point out that you were dealing with a tremendous increase in business and that increase went beyond your ability. Some may argue that as a business you have an obligation regardless of the circumstances to maintain accurate records so the mistake that happened to your customer would not have happened. However, back in reality we all must use common sense and be understanding of a situation that is unanticipated and unlikely that may result with an outcome whereby a consumer's order is cancelled, delayed, lost, etc.

In the instant matter, the buyer, Rover Racing attempted to purchase the item through an eBay "best offer" transaction and only when the seller could not make sufficient profit, the seller decided to offer the goods via a direct Pay Pal bill, cheating eBay out of its fees. Then, Keyless4U created its own invoice for this specific item and submitted same via Pay Pal.

Unlike your transaction at a time of a holiday rush and with many eBay orders to fulfill, the instant case was specific item not sold through eBay, during a non holiday period, and required an invoice and payment outside the normal course of its eBay business. Thus, by the facts, it was not even close to your situation whereby you made an honest mistake.

Moreover, it would be highly unlikely that an eBay seller that went through all these efforts outside of eBay to sell this instrument cluster after multiple email communications between Keyless4U and Rover Racing, would anyone think this instrument cluster was "unknown", "lost", "not available", or "not paid for". Thus, resulting is a mistake whereby the item was sold to the next buyer in line.

Then, following the Rover Racing's complaint to Keyless4U, it refused to provide Rover Racing with basic information such as: (1) with the date when it sold the instrument cluster to the other buyer; (2) where the instrument cluster was sold, i.e., on eBay or some other website; and (3) the price the seller charged the 2nd buyer for the instrument cluster?

When I became involved in Rover Racing's case, I realized immediately why Keyless4U refused to provide the answers to Rover Racing's questions. It was clear to me that truthful answers Keyless4U could provide, would only result in damning evidence that would show not a simple inventory mistake, but a deliberate transaction to make more money from another buyer willing to pay more for the part. Then, Keyless4U most likely figured that after several weeks went by it would just claim ignorance.

As you know when you were selling on eBay, you did not circumvent eBay's final value fees it charges when a seller sells an item. Your sales were over loaded by a holiday rush and grouped together. In the instant matter, this item was not grouped with any other eBay transactions--just the opposite--it was billed specifically by Keyless4U when it generated a specific Pay Pal invoice. Then when payment is received, Pay Pal sends out a specific email that informs the sender of the invoice that the invoice was paid in full. Then, the transaction is recorded on a specific section of Pay Pal which generates a report of paid invoices. It is quite difficult to even consider with all those notices, emails and reports that this was a forgotten lost instrument cluster that needed to be sold to some other buyer. Then, when the seller most likely re-listed the instrument cluster on eBay, it is difficult to accept that the seller never was curious as to what happened with the first buyer and whether its invoice was paid. Why did the seller not send Rover Racing a quick email asking what was going on? Because Keyless4U was not in the dark and already knew what was going on.

I am open-minded, but not that open-minded to believe such a tall tale.

Lastly, you stated that you extended your deepest apologies. That certainly goes far in my book to your sincerity and acknowledging your mistake was done in err. But in the instant case, there was no apology and no explanation as to the why and when.

Unfortunately, in these difficult economic times, companies will sell the same item more than once, and/or will sell the same item to another buyer that is willing to pay a higher price and will delay making a refund.  Keyless4U  is that type of company and that is why there are several complaints of similar conduct with this website and filed against it with eBay.

To make matters worse for consumers, eBay Motors is filled with buyers that attempt to buy a vehicle after the auction ends by offering a seller more money than the winning bidder will pay. The good honest business says no, but there are plenty of sellers that say yes and then the winning bidder never gets the great deal he or she thought they won fair and square.

Hopefully, in a buyer's anger and frustration, the buyer files a complaint with Ripoff Reports so that other consumers will not shop with this dishonest seller. I have found in twenty years of consumer issues, that if the seller does it once, more than likely the seller will do it again and again. It is rare that such wrongful behavior is an isolated instance.

What if it was a simple mistake. For example: I sold a ton of stuff during Christmas one year andI failed to properly manage my inventory. I sold one more thing than what I really had and then (to make matters worse) I put the invoice in the "shipped pile" and lost track of it until I received an email from the buyer who was waiting for a shipping confirmation. I sent an email to them sending my deepest apologies and refunded all of their money. Thats the right thing to do and they even gave me positive feedback because I was very nice.
With that in mind I don't see what the use in taking a customers money so the seller can just stare at the numbers in the account untill the customer asks for it back. If he didn't give it back then I would agree with the shame on you ripoff report but seeming you received your money back I don't think you should have typed this report.

Dear Larry,

I write this response directed to you, but hopefully shall provide other consumers with insight when what appears to be a simple issue involving a refund of a de minimus amount that can be simply written off as no harm, no foul by its $47.00 refund; when in fact, that is quite not what happened when you peel back the layers and consider all the facts that clearly evidence fraud.

Thus, what may appear to be at first blush a case where a refund will do is just not that simple when one considers all the facts, as the instant case in which the real victim is a woman that needed this auto part (instrument cluster) to operate her old Range Rover and is now forced to rent a replacement car for $20.00 per day to get to and from her work. Why?  Because the company, Keyless4U is dishonest, greedy and could care less about anything other than lining its pockets with money that does not belong to it.

HERE IS THE STORY & RESPONSE TO YOU:
I am not sure if you ever shopped on eBay and spent time locating a used part, buying that part either by submitting a winning bid or through BUY NOW, but it is not a simple refund that makes one whole when a dishonest seller, sells the same part multiple times or sells the same vehicle to more than one buyer, taking several deposits. Perhaps if I clarify this for you, you may get it. This is FRAUD and the reasons for this are set forth as follows:

(1) CONTRACT-BREACH OF K: Many eBay buyers whether an individual or business turn to eBay for used parts because the part is no longer manufactured as was here in the instant case. So after hours spent locating and then finally finding the part on eBay and taking the time and effort to bid and win or by selecting BUY NOW, that then becomes a "contract at law" in which the seller agrees to sell and the buyer agrees to buy. If persons did not honor their legal obligation, there would be chaos. A contract would have no meaning and performance would have no valid outcome.

Therefore, when a seller fails to fulfill his/her obligation to sell, the buyer is at a loss, wasted time, wasted effort in paying, wasted effort to obtain a refund, and finally is back at the beginning of the cycle trying all over to obtain the part that was already purchased.

Have you considered what if there was not another part to be found for sometime, perhaps months? What if the part as here was necessary for the vehicle to move because without it the vehicles BeCM would not allow it to function.

This was a business, buying this part for a customer's vehicle. This part is not readily available on the marketplace.

Would you want to do business with a seller whereby you win a great 46" plasma or LCD television for $100 and it is sold out from under you to another buyer for more money? Why? Because the seller got more money from another buyer and totally disregarded the contract to sell you the goods. What do you do as a buyer? Most likely pay much more for that 46" television. If you paid this seller and a refund was made, are you made whole? Is this fair? No, and it is unlawful under the law because the proper remedy  at law is for you to obtain another 46" television and have the seller made responsible for the difference in price you paid the seller ($100) and the price you paid on the second eBay deal which was $225.00. Thus, the seller not selling to you, cost you an extra $125 and the seller is liable for those "cover" damages which is the actual difference between the seller whom repudiated the contract by selling the television to the second buyer.

(2) FRAUD & CONVERSION: In the instant matter the seller obtained money although not a huge amount in this case since it was $47.00, but converted it for his own use, spent it, enjoyed it and only after the buyer complained did he make a refund. The seller had no intentions of honoring his contract and simply sold the instrument cluster to a second most likely higher paying buyer.

When was the last time that Larry gave his money to an individual or a business to simply use and enjoy until at a later date, it was returned when he asked for his money back?

I cannot imagine to many people would volunteer to give their money away for another's use and receive it back at a later date, if and only if, they requested the money returned.

Larry, the proper way to obtain "other people's money" is called a loan. The person borrowing it contracts for the money with terms spelled out in a promissory note. Those terms consider the cost of the money such as fees, charges and interest because all those expenses are related to the real cost of providing the money.

Not to burst your bubble, but I don't know of anyone dumb enough to let an unknown person have their hard earned money for free. Now the seller here was not related to the buyer, the buyer was not the seller's grammy giving the seller free use of the money for an indefinite period of time without a note.

Back in reality, the seller here, received the funds for specific performance under a contract to sell goods and tender those goods to the buyer upon receipt of payment. This did not happen, the seller simply enjoyed free use of the money and after weeks, the seller returned the exact amount of the payment. Even you should agree, not such a good deal for the buyer who sent the seller her money,

(3) FAILURE TO REFUND PAYMENT-ONLY WHEN DEMENADED BY PAYOR:  In the instant matter Keyless4U admitted that it would have never refunded the money unless a specific inquiry was made for a refund. The seller, Keyless4U made its specious argument that it had no idea that its own invoice was paid.  Is it BELIEVABLE to you?

I am not sure how many people fell off the turnip truck yesterday, but I find Keyless4U explanation laughable and when one considers that Keyless4U can even argue that it has no idea when its invoices are paid and/or has no ability to read Pay Pal's journal entries, in my book is unbelievable.

Moreover, what does that type of conduct say about the company selling goods to consumers. Do consumers desire to business with a company that charges for goods based upon billed invoices, yet it does not know which invoices were paid, so the goods are only shipped or refunds are only made to complaining buyers?

Most of the world that pays bills whether it was for a rent, a mortgage payment, utility, car payment, goods, or services performed, expect a company that provides same to have sufficient business practices and records to accomplish the tracking of payments so that customers receive (benefit for their payment) credit for their payments. The law requires this otherwise there would be chaos in our society.

Not a difficult legal concept to have the benifit of one's bargain nor do we want individuals or companies being unjustly enriched.

In the instant case, the seller Keyless4U claims that when a buyer complains a refund is issued. That is one terrific system, the non complainers are the only one's suffering a pecuniary loss. The complainers are the only ones that lost their money for some unknown time period and the seller enjoys the money for free.

According to Larry, this is ok because eventually the seller did in fact make a refund for the exact amount of the buyer's payment. Yes, the buyer was screwed and did not receive his part for his customer's vehicle and yes, the vehicle owner was screwed having her Range Rover inoperable for weeks and yes, the seller enjoyed the money and because the buyer complained, he was one of those that gets a refund.

CONCLUSION

What kind of world would we live in under Larry's vision of "no big deal", no contracts, a world where fraud is allowed to legally exist?

Perhaps Larry can creat an internet site and he can provide loans to all those that ask for money and the repayment terms are zero interest together with no fees, no contracts and you repay the money whenever.

This begs the question, does anyone believe that Larry under the same circumstances, cheated out of a part that was necessary for his business after paying for that part and knowing the seller used and enjoyed his money would be ok with that. I am sorry Larry, but as I stated I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday and I have found in my lifetime dealing with consumers that the biggest complainers are the first to say No big deal because it was not their money.

What is clear by the facts is that Keyless4U, the ebay seller in this case,  cheated eBay out of its fees in the transaction for the sale of goods, failed to ship goods because the goods did not exist since the goods "instrument cluster" were sold to another buyer, and the injured buyer, Rover Racing totally wasted its time waiting for parts that would never ever arrive. Then we have the owner of a Range Rover whom also relied on the part to repair her vehicle who will continue to wait until another used part can be located, paid for and shipped to Rover Racing.

Finally, we have Keyless4U the seller that screwed some many persons in one transaction and got free use of money that did not belong to it. Do you want to business with Keyless4U?

I would bet that upon examination of Keyless4U's tax returns, that this corporation more likely than not does not donate even $47 to a 501c3 charity in a given tax year.

You as consumers are very powerful and by deciding on where to spend your money can make or break a company. Thus, by not shopping at a business such as Keyless4U can result in hopefully positive changes of conduct or will result in the business failing. Yes, it is sometimes more convenient to do business with a bad company, but in the end you will be somewhat responsible for its continued bad conduct which may involve cheating consumers, screwing employees, fraud, etc.

So the next time you buy a product, or shop for a service, please consider where your money is going. Yes, I am asking all of you to do what is right by rewarding the honest company that perhaps struggles to stay afloat by spending your money with that business.

Please, Read Ripoff Reports and check its database to see if others have issues with the same business you intend on doing business with.

/s/ RJC
Litigation Coordinator and Consumer Advocate

OK, you made a deal over the internet to buy an instrument cluster and somehow the seller sold it to someone else.  The seller returned your money.

I stopped reading your complaint when I got to the part where you were demanding that seller explain to you how this could happen.  What part of "he ain't got the instrument cluster no more" do you not understand?  What difference could it make who bought it or how and where it was sold?  He no longer has it and he returned your money. Go find another instrument cluster from another seller.

Maybe you behaved like such a jerk from the outset that the seller did not want your business.  (I sure would not want an idiot like you for a customer.)

This is not a Rip Off.