Toyota Motor Sales, Inc. Engine Oil Sludge (Gel, Oil Build Up, etc.): Owner Neglect OR Design Flaw? ripoff scam to consumers, mistreated by Toyota Torrance California

Mobil-1 will do an excellent job. Mobil-1 costs $23 per 5-quart jug at Wally*World. I had sludge start to develop in a then-new 1981 Buick engine after only 3000 miles on mineral oil! Do we hear terror tales about this? No!

My solution, to reach GM's 7500 mile oil change interval on that 1981 Buick, was to use Mobil-1. And the ''more expensive'' Mobil-1 saved me money because I could get 7500 miles per oil change! Part of the secret? I had to buy a new oil filter only every 7500 miles on Mobil-1, instead of having to buy a new oil filter every 3000 miles on mineral oil.

People, do NOT use mineral oils, ''semi-synthetic'' oils, or ''generic synthetic'' oils in your engines. Use only Cat-3 or better synthetics. A super-refined mineral oil can be labled ''synthetic'', i.e. a Cat-1 Synthetic!

No dealer can refuse warranty on mileage or no oil changes at their so call intervals of mileages. There is a federal law called the magnus moss warranty act. stating you can run oil forever as long as oil tests OK. That is why amsoil can run 100,000 miles without warranty problems. all the customer has to do is get an oil sample of the oil & if it comes back OK, then the dealer has to warranty the engine for damages etc.

If the dealer refuse due to mileage of oil change etc. go to an attorney @ that point & sue them for not honering the magnus moss warranty act. Make sure you have a copy of the oil sample test. you can get oil sample bottles to send in from caterpiller & others for a minimal fee. Look it up & read for a better understanding of this law. These dealer ships sounnds like to me are in pure violation of the law. This is just a reply to what is going on. Please read the law as I stated.

No dealer can refuse warranty on mileage or no oil changes at their so call intervals of mileages. There is a federal law called the magnus moss warranty act. stating you can run oil forever as long as oil tests OK. That is why amsoil can run 100,000 miles without warranty problems. all the customer has to do is get an oil sample of the oil & if it comes back OK, then the dealer has to warranty the engine for damages etc.

If the dealer refuse due to mileage of oil change etc. go to an attorney @ that point & sue them for not honering the magnus moss warranty act. Make sure you have a copy of the oil sample test. you can get oil sample bottles to send in from caterpiller & others for a minimal fee. Look it up & read for a better understanding of this law. These dealer ships sounnds like to me are in pure violation of the law. This is just a reply to what is going on. Please read the law as I stated.

No dealer can refuse warranty on mileage or no oil changes at their so call intervals of mileages. There is a federal law called the magnus moss warranty act. stating you can run oil forever as long as oil tests OK. That is why amsoil can run 100,000 miles without warranty problems. all the customer has to do is get an oil sample of the oil & if it comes back OK, then the dealer has to warranty the engine for damages etc.

If the dealer refuse due to mileage of oil change etc. go to an attorney @ that point & sue them for not honering the magnus moss warranty act. Make sure you have a copy of the oil sample test. you can get oil sample bottles to send in from caterpiller & others for a minimal fee. Look it up & read for a better understanding of this law. These dealer ships sounnds like to me are in pure violation of the law. This is just a reply to what is going on. Please read the law as I stated.

No dealer can refuse warranty on mileage or no oil changes at their so call intervals of mileages. There is a federal law called the magnus moss warranty act. stating you can run oil forever as long as oil tests OK. That is why amsoil can run 100,000 miles without warranty problems. all the customer has to do is get an oil sample of the oil & if it comes back OK, then the dealer has to warranty the engine for damages etc.

If the dealer refuse due to mileage of oil change etc. go to an attorney @ that point & sue them for not honering the magnus moss warranty act. Make sure you have a copy of the oil sample test. you can get oil sample bottles to send in from caterpiller & others for a minimal fee. Look it up & read for a better understanding of this law. These dealer ships sounnds like to me are in pure violation of the law. This is just a reply to what is going on. Please read the law as I stated.

Charles, I appreciate your criticism of the CR methodology. It's worth noting that CR, itself, noted the limitations of the study -- in particular, the lack of frequent cold starts and short trips, or operation in especially dusty conditions. (The system cut out the URL of the article reprint, so people could see for themselves, but anyone who is interested can find the report via google.)

However, I think everyone can agree that, in most respects, NYC taxicabs see much harder duty than average vehicles. Stop and go traffic, with frequent idling, is certainly very hard on engines and oil.

I believe you are incorrect in suggesting that the test CR performed is no better than a lab test, and I don't believe it is at all realistic to think that anything closer to the "real world" could realistically be accomplished. The sample size you would need to perform a test under wider-ranging conditions--in order to make the many differences in driver behavior statistically insignificant--would be so enormous as to make such a test virtually impossible to undertake.

As such, I maintain that the CR test is compelling evidence -- and certainly the best evidence we have. While I don't doubt that the experiences you conveyed are real, I also don't believe that such anecdotal evidence--especially without any meaningful data on the full context of the symptoms observed--makes for a compelling rebuttal. We simply have no idea what might have caused or contributed to symptoms you observed.

I think the point remains that, between the CR research, and manufacturer recommendations for longer intervals (at least under "normal" operating conditions), it's not reasonable to suggest that (even) conventional oils need to be changed after 3000 miles. Nor do I see any basis for the suggestion that the engine problem at hand is anything other than a design defect.

For the record, I do much prefer to use synthetic oil, as I mentioned, because of its superior resistance to breakdown. However, based on the reading I've done, I believe the primary concern for conventional oil breakdown in these ranges (i.e., 7500 miles) is acidity, as opposed to sludge formation.

Also for the record, before I went to synthetic oil, I experiemented with longer ranges for conventional oils. For many years, I did the traditional 3000 mile interval. After seeing the original 1987 CR research, I extended that to 5000 miles, and even 7500 miles. I never experienced any problems as a result. However, I did eventually decide I was more comfortable using a synthetic oil -- and accordingly, that's what I recommend to others.

Nonetheless, I believe that the best research we have--which is CR's research--is a compelling argument that using long intervals with even conventional oils is not likely to produce engine damage.

The oil and gas industry has a history as a classic pure marketing play. There is essentially no difference between different brands of gasoline. The actual gas for all the brands comes from the same set of refineries in any given region. They are distinguished only by the additives they use (and their brand), and under modern regulations, there is virtually no difference remaining between those additives.

Yet the oil companies successfully (to a great degree) distinguish their products in our minds. They also seem to convince many people that higher octane gasolines burn cleaner, clean engines better, etc. -- when, of course, the reality is that if you don't have a high compression ratio engine, higher octane gas offers no benefit at all, except to the oil companies' bottom lines.

It has clearly been demonstrated by CR that there are, similarly, no meaningful differences between brands of motor oil. And I think most of the available evidence gives us every reason to believe that the 3000 mile oil change interval is, similarly, beneficial primarily (and very likely *only*) to the oil companies' (and mechanics') bottom lines.

This is in response to J.S of Long Islands Rebuttal and CR Report statement.

I am an owner of a quick lube shop. From what I have seen come through my shop, I can tell you the 3,00 mile change is no hype, but it does not always apply to every vehicle. Some vehicles can go up to 6,000 between changes but there are many factors that determine that.

Have you ever seen a clogged oil filter? I thought that rarely happened? They expolde in the oil filter crusher leaving a ton of thick gelled goo everywhere. I saw 3 in one month from people who only went 5,000-7,000mi on conventional oil. The oil left in the collection trough is pitch black, sooty, and thick. I personally would never recommend going over 5,000 on a conventional oil but that does vary by vehicle.

Note that J.S. goes 7,500 on his synthetic oil.. but that is the point, HE IS USING SYNTHETIC not conventional. Full synthetic can take more punishment than conventional. I do the same as J.S, 7,500 on synthetic.. I have even gone 12,000 on Mobil 1 using a high end filter like K&N or Mobil 1 with no ill effects. I did this by accident and would not do it on a regular basis, but there was no sludge formation using the synthetic.

Let me say that CR Reports is a very credible organization, but their report comparing 3,000 mile versus 6,000 changes in NYC Taxicabs is flawed. Why? While it makes for an easier controlled environment, it does not take into account the majority of real world driving. For instance, how often does the cabbie turn off the engine? at every stop? I doubt it. It is true that they do stop and go traffic but the engines are always at operating temperature and not subjected to the temperature swings and cold starts of normal drivers. The terrain in NYC is fairly flat, no hillclimbing there. The CR Report has merit but it was an easy study for a somewhat controlled environment. A more realistic study would have involved different cars from a few different geographic locations with similar type drivers. This kind of study would have been much more difficult to analyize but would have had more value and merit. The CR Report is not much different than engines tested in a lab.

Back to the Toyota issue. I had a lady come in with 38,000mi on a 2001 Avalon that that consumed oil and the dealer told her had sludge and they could fix it for $4,000. The exterior of the engine was clean and no visible signs of leakage. The valve train cannot be viewed from the oil fill so it is tough to determine how much sludge may have been built up. I did perform an engine flush and there was evidence of some sludge that I would not consider too serious without tearing the engine apart. The engine had no indication of being abused/neglected and it definitely should not have been consuming oil at 38K

Last note, Toyota now recommends using Mobil 1 Synthetic on its vehicles to prevent oil breakdown and sludge. Makes you wonder.

Jeffrey, tell Toyota you're going to quit spreading propaganda for them. You know darn well even if you change your oil every 3000 miles you STILL can have oil turn into gell. You know this. The affected Toyota engines can't breath well and as a result, cook the oil causing the additives to gell and plate out in the engine. I've built engines all of my 41 years and I know what I'm talking about.

Hey Einstein, is it my fault if my charcoal canister is fouled up from overfilling my gastank when I've never had the tank overfilled? Funny how after 2001 Toyota repositioned the charcoal canister vents so that they wouldn't become contaminated with gas. Hmmmmmm???

Check for charcoal canister problems after 2001 and you won't find one! So don't insult us and say it's lack of oil changes for the sludge problem. Can you build a Nascar engine? I can. Enough said.

I wanted to add two comments to this discussion.

First, I came across this issue while researching used Camry's, as I look for a vehicle for my sons to drive. (I do not own any Toyota, so I don't have an axe of my own to grind.)

MSN identified the issue (for 1996-2001 Camry's), and according to MSN, Toyota has adopted an 8-year unlimited mileage engine warranty for 1997-2001 Camry's. (I didn't check other models, since I was only looking at Camry's.) I'm not sure if this is a "quiet warranty" (i.e., one that you won't be told about unless you ask/demand coverage). Do a google search on, for example, "1997 camry reliability" to find the MSN reliability data page containing this information.

Second, the notion that oil change intervals should be 3000 miles is pure marketing hype from oil/oil change companies. Consumer Reports has at least twice (1987 and 1996) performed detailed testing showing that there was no measurable wear difference between NYC taxicabs maintained on a 6000-mile interval, vs. those mainained on a 3000-mile interval. These were long term (60,000 mile) tests, performed over almost two years, with new engine rebuilds at the beginning and full engine breakdowns at the end, to allow very precise measurements.

For the vast majority of even severe use vehicles, there simply is no need to use a 3000-mile interval, and manufacturer recommended 7500-mile intervals are almost certainly quite safe. (And for the record, they observed no measurable difference in performance between some 20 different brands of conventional oils.) Anybody who wants to claim otherwise needs to do more than just offer hand-waving/common sense arguments. It would take some pretty compelling data to dispute CR's published research.

A reprint of the 1996 CR report can be found at .

Personally I use (and recommend) synthetic oil, for added protection against breakdown, and the acidity oil can develop as a result of such. I don't worry at all about a 7500 mile interval synthetic oil, and have taken engines well beyond 200K miles, without any indicators of engine problems, on such a maintenance program.

Bottom-line -- a recommended oil change interval of 7500 miles should not pose any problem for a non-defective engine. Toyota seems to have, at least implicitly, acknowledged that the problem with these engines is one of their own doing.

The toyota dealership in Punta Gorda, FL offered to replace our engine without our realizing this this sludge issue was under discussion when this same engine breakdown occurred to us.

We were vacationing in Florida when cruising on I-75 I heard a strange sound coming from the car. I immediately pulled over and shut off the engine. After getting out to examine the car I found that I could not re-engage the engine, the ignition turned over but the car would not start. As all the electronics in the car were working I knew it was not the battery. The short of the story was the dealership said the there was no oil in the car and what little there was had turned to sludge. I was incredulous. Not only do we maintain our vehicles but no engine lights came on while driving. The repair coordinator said he felt our engine was shot but would not really know until the mechnanics got a look. The next day they told my husband that they were going to replace the engine gratis and that we would only have to pay about $600 in labor. Now as our Sienna has about 105,000 miles on it and is 5 years old this came as a bit of a shock. We were fully expecting to pay for the cost of a new engine. Rather than ask question before the work was done we surfed to ascertain whether this was a "quiet issue". I must commend this dealership. They didn't even try to frame us for a very costly repair and quite frankly given the age of the car we would not have made any issue about the outcome. There are some credible dealers out there folks.

The Toyota company must have better lawyers than everyone else. That's the only possible explanation for this situation. I bet they are paying more for lawyers than it would cost to replace all the engines affected by sludge.

Toyota wrote in the manual to change the oil every 7500 miles. If the owner of the car follows those instructions, and doesn't otherwise abuse or neglect the car, the warranty remains valid. It really is that simple. If the oil has been changed every 7500 miles but the engine fails, Toyota has to repair it under warranty.

Toyota made a huge mistake with the 7500 mile recommendation. It was as big a mistake as using improper materials or workmanship in building the car. It will lead to early failure of the engine, and such failure is Toyota's fault. They need to pay for this mistake. That's the whole point of a warranty.

Of course a dealer, Jiffy Lube, or anyone else in the business of changing oil is going to "recommend" changes at 3000 miles. This is generally good advice, but the Toyota owner, not knowing anything about the chemistry of oil, etc. would reasonably conclude that these places are just trying to make extra profit off of him. The Toyota book says 7500 miles and that's what he's going to do. And no one should blame him for it.

Nowadays, warranties are just sales tools to give the buyer good feelings about the perceived quality of the product and close the sale. After the sale, the warranty is almost always useless. Warranty coverage will nearly always be denied for any number of reasons, some valid but most not. The consumer does not have the resources to fight the company in court. It would cost him or her more to do that than to just pay for repair or replacement of the defective product. The company knows that all too well.

....but your lenghty missive doesn't change the accuracy of Jeffrey's post. I fully realize car owners frequently have an emotional attatchment to their cars, and reality is thus distorted.
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I'm with Jeff boy on this issue.
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P.S.: I have an intense dislike of 'car dealers', as my previous posts will confirm. I am in NO WAY defending the deaalership(s).

Dear Jeffrey, why does you post sound so familiar to me and the other owners of sludge-prone Toyotas? Well, for one thing, you are saying that the OWNER is to blame as Toyota has maintained from the beginning. You are misleading the public into believing that properly changing the oil......Toyota thinks this is now thousands of miles sooner than what is written in all of its owner manuals...will prevent this particular engine oil sludge from occurring. In fact, there have been countless Toyota owners who have indeed changed their oil BETTER THAN RECOMMENDED FOR YEARS but who STILL GOT SLUDGE.

Tell me something, please. Why is it that the first thing that a technician will tell you at a Toyota dealership when the word sludge is mentioned is that "they haven't seen cases of sludge except where the owner goes 30,000 miles on the oil?" Also, let me know why owners who have maintained their engines properly and who had receipts in hand were TURNED DOWN in Toyota-sponsored arbitration when the arbitrators REFUSED TO LOOK AT THE RECEIPTS?

Tell me why Toyota is now trying to blame some oil companies for the problems caused in some of these engines? Tell me why over 340 people have signed a petition I wrote which lists reasons why the "unprecedented" and "generous" Customer Support Program for "engine oil gelation" is anything but what is claimed? Remember, my petition wasn't even written until March, 2003, almost one full year since the CSP implementation. Why are so many owners who have suffered premanent engine failure at relatively low mileage (definitely for a "legendary quality Toyota) been told, "Gee, you don't qualify for the program.....that will be $6,000, please for your rebuilt engine?"

While you are at it, please let me know WHY so many owners have NEVER received any letter from Toyota....you know, the letters that were supposedly sent out to 3.3 million affected owners of the sludgemobiles? WHY? WHY? WHY? Who benefits from keeping these Toyota owners in the dark? Why do so many petition signers say that 1) they received no letter; 2) they learned about the sludge matter on their own on the internet; and 3) they were blown off by Toyota with no explanation other than OWNER NEGLECT (in some cases they simply scratch their heads) for their premature engine failures? Why is it that so many owners are upside down on loans after being told that they own a WORTHLESS SLUDGEMOBILE....you know, the vehicle that is supposed to have so much more RESALE VALUE (not!) than the other makes? Who is gaining from the indiscriminate resale of these recycled sludgemobiles? Go ahead....tell me, please!

Jeffrey, you have never seen a sludged engine repair in a properly maintained vehicle? REALLY? Do you live in a city under the ground? OR, is your Toyota dealership doing what so many other dealerships are doing......DENYING the CSP to those who DO HAVE PROPER OIL CHANGE RECEIPTS? You do know that you company WANTS documentation to support an owner neglect problem, not a vehicle design problem? What lengths will it go to refuse to fix someone's vehicle when all receipts, some at Toyota dealerships alone, are brought forward?

Something else.....WHY is the oil breaking down in these vehicles BELOW the manufacturer's recommended oil change interval? Tell me WHY the oil with just 3,340 miles on it would show high nitration, lowered viscosity, high silicon, and label the OIL CONDITION "ABNORMAL?" Do you think this information supports the fact that 3,500 mile or better oil changes will prevent sludge formation? OR, does it support that something VERY ominous is happening to the engine oil very early in its life? This oil, by the way, is sold at the Toyota dealership and tested with a reference sample. EXPLAIN, please. I'll wait!

Another thing, Jeffrey, why are so many emission control components being replaced either right before or right after the sludge develops in these engines? Why is the OBDII giving NO WARNING of impending major engine failure? Why is the oil SUDDENLY DISAPPEARING in some of these engines or being burned at a very rapid rate? I'm talking every gasoline fill-up oil check is not adequate with these engines rapidly depleting the oil as it is. Nonetheless, many of these owners are being blamed for not checking their oil often enough. My advise, leave the hood open and create a device to check it while driving......no kidding....this may be the only way to detect it!!

So, Jeffrey, have you networked with thousands of Toyota owners who are either similarly-affected or like-minded? I have. Let me tell you, it is absolutely FALSE to suggest that there have been no cases of engine oil sludge in a properly maintained Toyota vehicle!! And, trying to pin the blame on yet ANOTHER entity? First, we heard it was the quick lube places. Then it was the quality of the oil. Next, it was the owner's fault. When that didn't work, it was the original oil filter was left on. Yada, yada, yada.....we have heard it all by now.....almost two years since the CSP (which some owners claim is nothing more than a FAKE PROGRAM which serves only to deceive the public and/or the government agencies).

And, speaking of the CSP, can you explain why there is a limited list of models and model years? Do you suppose the owners of some models and model years just are too lazy to maintain their vehicles like the rest of the Toyota owners? Also, why are only certain engines included in the CSP? So, this is an owner maintenance issue? Sure, whatever!

I hope, Jeffrey, that you will think awhile on the issues I have raised, because quite frankly, if you have not, you have placed nothing more than PROPAGANDA on this site to support your employer and once again DENIGRATE the loyal TOYOTA OWNERS who say that they did NOT get what they paid for! Several of the latest Toyota commercials are almost comical in what they suggest given the facts in the over five year debate about it online.....yes, that's right, some owners first came out in 1999 to discuss it on another site. Toyota never acted on this problem until three years later.....AFTER the internet dialogue and after owners threatened to file a class action lawsuit. Funny enough, Toyota didn't say a word until a brave owner named Maggie told her sludge case to Automotive News. Poor woman couldn't drive her Sienna for a year, but had to keep making payments! That was thanks to Kendall Toyota is Miami, Florida. Her story is shared by thousands of other owners.

Toyota says this problem is "very small" in scale. The spin doctors keep "chasing" vocal Toyota owners all over the internet to rebut what they say, though. Gee, for such an itsy, bitsy problem, these guys work 24/7 using some unsavory personal defamation in an effort to discredit the "most vocal." But, that's another whole PR story which I feel certain will be told in due time.....it is just too bizarre to escape attention!

Ah, yes......oh, what a feeling.....a feeling of being slammed for owning a Toyota and having the guts to speak up about its problems! Remember, I'm being conservative to keep this board within the code of human decency. Those working to SHUT UP THE MOST VOCAL TOYOTA OWNERS, however, are doing anything but that!

Oh, and if I came in to your dealership, would you tell me that I had "an ax to grind" for speaking up for other Toyota owners? I was told this on my last visit in a perfectly unprovoked way by a Toyota technician. No, I don't have an "ax to grind." I have CONSUMERS TO EMPOWER, thank you very much! And, for that, I will feel not one shred of guilt or remorse for my PRO-ACTIVE CONSUMER EFFORTS!

Want some advice, Jeffrey? STOP blaming your customers for what you KNOW is more. STOP trying to find yet another scapegoat so that the responsible party can once again escape responsibility. STOP telling the public that shorter oil change intervals will keep sludge out of these engines when you KNOW this is not true. We've already had to listen to Mike Michels and John Hanson at Toyota who keep reciting this, "We are unaware of a single case of engine oil sludge in a properly maintained vehicle" mantra.

I ask you, Jeffrey, WHO is really being scammed here? Who really wants the "free ride" that the spin doctors claim? Who cares more about the bottom dollar than the owners of its vehicles?

I hope I have created fuel for some active debate about this matter. What has transpired recently demands full participation by the TOYOTA VICTIMS OF SLUDGE. Your claims as well your employer's will be called to task. I've got plenty of time for your response........

Dear Jeffrey, why does you post sound so familiar to me and the other owners of sludge-prone Toyotas? Well, for one thing, you are saying that the OWNER is to blame as Toyota has maintained from the beginning. You are misleading the public into believing that properly changing the oil......Toyota thinks this is now thousands of miles sooner than what is written in all of its owner manuals...will prevent this particular engine oil sludge from occurring. In fact, there have been countless Toyota owners who have indeed changed their oil BETTER THAN RECOMMENDED FOR YEARS but who STILL GOT SLUDGE.

Tell me something, please. Why is it that the first thing that a technician will tell you at a Toyota dealership when the word sludge is mentioned is that "they haven't seen cases of sludge except where the owner goes 30,000 miles on the oil?" Also, let me know why owners who have maintained their engines properly and who had receipts in hand were TURNED DOWN in Toyota-sponsored arbitration when the arbitrators REFUSED TO LOOK AT THE RECEIPTS?

Tell me why Toyota is now trying to blame some oil companies for the problems caused in some of these engines? Tell me why over 340 people have signed a petition I wrote which lists reasons why the "unprecedented" and "generous" Customer Support Program for "engine oil gelation" is anything but what is claimed? Remember, my petition wasn't even written until March, 2003, almost one full year since the CSP implementation. Why are so many owners who have suffered premanent engine failure at relatively low mileage (definitely for a "legendary quality Toyota) been told, "Gee, you don't qualify for the program.....that will be $6,000, please for your rebuilt engine?"

While you are at it, please let me know WHY so many owners have NEVER received any letter from Toyota....you know, the letters that were supposedly sent out to 3.3 million affected owners of the sludgemobiles? WHY? WHY? WHY? Who benefits from keeping these Toyota owners in the dark? Why do so many petition signers say that 1) they received no letter; 2) they learned about the sludge matter on their own on the internet; and 3) they were blown off by Toyota with no explanation other than OWNER NEGLECT (in some cases they simply scratch their heads) for their premature engine failures? Why is it that so many owners are upside down on loans after being told that they own a WORTHLESS SLUDGEMOBILE....you know, the vehicle that is supposed to have so much more RESALE VALUE (not!) than the other makes? Who is gaining from the indiscriminate resale of these recycled sludgemobiles? Go ahead....tell me, please!

Jeffrey, you have never seen a sludged engine repair in a properly maintained vehicle? REALLY? Do you live in a city under the ground? OR, is your Toyota dealership doing what so many other dealerships are doing......DENYING the CSP to those who DO HAVE PROPER OIL CHANGE RECEIPTS? You do know that you company WANTS documentation to support an owner neglect problem, not a vehicle design problem? What lengths will it go to refuse to fix someone's vehicle when all receipts, some at Toyota dealerships alone, are brought forward?

Something else.....WHY is the oil breaking down in these vehicles BELOW the manufacturer's recommended oil change interval? Tell me WHY the oil with just 3,340 miles on it would show high nitration, lowered viscosity, high silicon, and label the OIL CONDITION "ABNORMAL?" Do you think this information supports the fact that 3,500 mile or better oil changes will prevent sludge formation? OR, does it support that something VERY ominous is happening to the engine oil very early in its life? This oil, by the way, is sold at the Toyota dealership and tested with a reference sample. EXPLAIN, please. I'll wait!

Another thing, Jeffrey, why are so many emission control components being replaced either right before or right after the sludge develops in these engines? Why is the OBDII giving NO WARNING of impending major engine failure? Why is the oil SUDDENLY DISAPPEARING in some of these engines or being burned at a very rapid rate? I'm talking every gasoline fill-up oil check is not adequate with these engines rapidly depleting the oil as it is. Nonetheless, many of these owners are being blamed for not checking their oil often enough. My advise, leave the hood open and create a device to check it while driving......no kidding....this may be the only way to detect it!!

So, Jeffrey, have you networked with thousands of Toyota owners who are either similarly-affected or like-minded? I have. Let me tell you, it is absolutely FALSE to suggest that there have been no cases of engine oil sludge in a properly maintained Toyota vehicle!! And, trying to pin the blame on yet ANOTHER entity? First, we heard it was the quick lube places. Then it was the quality of the oil. Next, it was the owner's fault. When that didn't work, it was the original oil filter was left on. Yada, yada, yada.....we have heard it all by now.....almost two years since the CSP (which some owners claim is nothing more than a FAKE PROGRAM which serves only to deceive the public and/or the government agencies).

And, speaking of the CSP, can you explain why there is a limited list of models and model years? Do you suppose the owners of some models and model years just are too lazy to maintain their vehicles like the rest of the Toyota owners? Also, why are only certain engines included in the CSP? So, this is an owner maintenance issue? Sure, whatever!

I hope, Jeffrey, that you will think awhile on the issues I have raised, because quite frankly, if you have not, you have placed nothing more than PROPAGANDA on this site to support your employer and once again DENIGRATE the loyal TOYOTA OWNERS who say that they did NOT get what they paid for! Several of the latest Toyota commercials are almost comical in what they suggest given the facts in the over five year debate about it online.....yes, that's right, some owners first came out in 1999 to discuss it on another site. Toyota never acted on this problem until three years later.....AFTER the internet dialogue and after owners threatened to file a class action lawsuit. Funny enough, Toyota didn't say a word until a brave owner named Maggie told her sludge case to Automotive News. Poor woman couldn't drive her Sienna for a year, but had to keep making payments! That was thanks to Kendall Toyota is Miami, Florida. Her story is shared by thousands of other owners.

Toyota says this problem is "very small" in scale. The spin doctors keep "chasing" vocal Toyota owners all over the internet to rebut what they say, though. Gee, for such an itsy, bitsy problem, these guys work 24/7 using some unsavory personal defamation in an effort to discredit the "most vocal." But, that's another whole PR story which I feel certain will be told in due time.....it is just too bizarre to escape attention!

Ah, yes......oh, what a feeling.....a feeling of being slammed for owning a Toyota and having the guts to speak up about its problems! Remember, I'm being conservative to keep this board within the code of human decency. Those working to SHUT UP THE MOST VOCAL TOYOTA OWNERS, however, are doing anything but that!

Oh, and if I came in to your dealership, would you tell me that I had "an ax to grind" for speaking up for other Toyota owners? I was told this on my last visit in a perfectly unprovoked way by a Toyota technician. No, I don't have an "ax to grind." I have CONSUMERS TO EMPOWER, thank you very much! And, for that, I will feel not one shred of guilt or remorse for my PRO-ACTIVE CONSUMER EFFORTS!

Want some advice, Jeffrey? STOP blaming your customers for what you KNOW is more. STOP trying to find yet another scapegoat so that the responsible party can once again escape responsibility. STOP telling the public that shorter oil change intervals will keep sludge out of these engines when you KNOW this is not true. We've already had to listen to Mike Michels and John Hanson at Toyota who keep reciting this, "We are unaware of a single case of engine oil sludge in a properly maintained vehicle" mantra.

I ask you, Jeffrey, WHO is really being scammed here? Who really wants the "free ride" that the spin doctors claim? Who cares more about the bottom dollar than the owners of its vehicles?

I hope I have created fuel for some active debate about this matter. What has transpired recently demands full participation by the TOYOTA VICTIMS OF SLUDGE. Your claims as well your employer's will be called to task. I've got plenty of time for your response........

Dear Jeffrey, why does you post sound so familiar to me and the other owners of sludge-prone Toyotas? Well, for one thing, you are saying that the OWNER is to blame as Toyota has maintained from the beginning. You are misleading the public into believing that properly changing the oil......Toyota thinks this is now thousands of miles sooner than what is written in all of its owner manuals...will prevent this particular engine oil sludge from occurring. In fact, there have been countless Toyota owners who have indeed changed their oil BETTER THAN RECOMMENDED FOR YEARS but who STILL GOT SLUDGE.

Tell me something, please. Why is it that the first thing that a technician will tell you at a Toyota dealership when the word sludge is mentioned is that "they haven't seen cases of sludge except where the owner goes 30,000 miles on the oil?" Also, let me know why owners who have maintained their engines properly and who had receipts in hand were TURNED DOWN in Toyota-sponsored arbitration when the arbitrators REFUSED TO LOOK AT THE RECEIPTS?

Tell me why Toyota is now trying to blame some oil companies for the problems caused in some of these engines? Tell me why over 340 people have signed a petition I wrote which lists reasons why the "unprecedented" and "generous" Customer Support Program for "engine oil gelation" is anything but what is claimed? Remember, my petition wasn't even written until March, 2003, almost one full year since the CSP implementation. Why are so many owners who have suffered premanent engine failure at relatively low mileage (definitely for a "legendary quality Toyota) been told, "Gee, you don't qualify for the program.....that will be $6,000, please for your rebuilt engine?"

While you are at it, please let me know WHY so many owners have NEVER received any letter from Toyota....you know, the letters that were supposedly sent out to 3.3 million affected owners of the sludgemobiles? WHY? WHY? WHY? Who benefits from keeping these Toyota owners in the dark? Why do so many petition signers say that 1) they received no letter; 2) they learned about the sludge matter on their own on the internet; and 3) they were blown off by Toyota with no explanation other than OWNER NEGLECT (in some cases they simply scratch their heads) for their premature engine failures? Why is it that so many owners are upside down on loans after being told that they own a WORTHLESS SLUDGEMOBILE....you know, the vehicle that is supposed to have so much more RESALE VALUE (not!) than the other makes? Who is gaining from the indiscriminate resale of these recycled sludgemobiles? Go ahead....tell me, please!

Jeffrey, you have never seen a sludged engine repair in a properly maintained vehicle? REALLY? Do you live in a city under the ground? OR, is your Toyota dealership doing what so many other dealerships are doing......DENYING the CSP to those who DO HAVE PROPER OIL CHANGE RECEIPTS? You do know that you company WANTS documentation to support an owner neglect problem, not a vehicle design problem? What lengths will it go to refuse to fix someone's vehicle when all receipts, some at Toyota dealerships alone, are brought forward?

Something else.....WHY is the oil breaking down in these vehicles BELOW the manufacturer's recommended oil change interval? Tell me WHY the oil with just 3,340 miles on it would show high nitration, lowered viscosity, high silicon, and label the OIL CONDITION "ABNORMAL?" Do you think this information supports the fact that 3,500 mile or better oil changes will prevent sludge formation? OR, does it support that something VERY ominous is happening to the engine oil very early in its life? This oil, by the way, is sold at the Toyota dealership and tested with a reference sample. EXPLAIN, please. I'll wait!

Another thing, Jeffrey, why are so many emission control components being replaced either right before or right after the sludge develops in these engines? Why is the OBDII giving NO WARNING of impending major engine failure? Why is the oil SUDDENLY DISAPPEARING in some of these engines or being burned at a very rapid rate? I'm talking every gasoline fill-up oil check is not adequate with these engines rapidly depleting the oil as it is. Nonetheless, many of these owners are being blamed for not checking their oil often enough. My advise, leave the hood open and create a device to check it while driving......no kidding....this may be the only way to detect it!!

So, Jeffrey, have you networked with thousands of Toyota owners who are either similarly-affected or like-minded? I have. Let me tell you, it is absolutely FALSE to suggest that there have been no cases of engine oil sludge in a properly maintained Toyota vehicle!! And, trying to pin the blame on yet ANOTHER entity? First, we heard it was the quick lube places. Then it was the quality of the oil. Next, it was the owner's fault. When that didn't work, it was the original oil filter was left on. Yada, yada, yada.....we have heard it all by now.....almost two years since the CSP (which some owners claim is nothing more than a FAKE PROGRAM which serves only to deceive the public and/or the government agencies).

And, speaking of the CSP, can you explain why there is a limited list of models and model years? Do you suppose the owners of some models and model years just are too lazy to maintain their vehicles like the rest of the Toyota owners? Also, why are only certain engines included in the CSP? So, this is an owner maintenance issue? Sure, whatever!

I hope, Jeffrey, that you will think awhile on the issues I have raised, because quite frankly, if you have not, you have placed nothing more than PROPAGANDA on this site to support your employer and once again DENIGRATE the loyal TOYOTA OWNERS who say that they did NOT get what they paid for! Several of the latest Toyota commercials are almost comical in what they suggest given the facts in the over five year debate about it online.....yes, that's right, some owners first came out in 1999 to discuss it on another site. Toyota never acted on this problem until three years later.....AFTER the internet dialogue and after owners threatened to file a class action lawsuit. Funny enough, Toyota didn't say a word until a brave owner named Maggie told her sludge case to Automotive News. Poor woman couldn't drive her Sienna for a year, but had to keep making payments! That was thanks to Kendall Toyota is Miami, Florida. Her story is shared by thousands of other owners.

Toyota says this problem is "very small" in scale. The spin doctors keep "chasing" vocal Toyota owners all over the internet to rebut what they say, though. Gee, for such an itsy, bitsy problem, these guys work 24/7 using some unsavory personal defamation in an effort to discredit the "most vocal." But, that's another whole PR story which I feel certain will be told in due time.....it is just too bizarre to escape attention!

Ah, yes......oh, what a feeling.....a feeling of being slammed for owning a Toyota and having the guts to speak up about its problems! Remember, I'm being conservative to keep this board within the code of human decency. Those working to SHUT UP THE MOST VOCAL TOYOTA OWNERS, however, are doing anything but that!

Oh, and if I came in to your dealership, would you tell me that I had "an ax to grind" for speaking up for other Toyota owners? I was told this on my last visit in a perfectly unprovoked way by a Toyota technician. No, I don't have an "ax to grind." I have CONSUMERS TO EMPOWER, thank you very much! And, for that, I will feel not one shred of guilt or remorse for my PRO-ACTIVE CONSUMER EFFORTS!

Want some advice, Jeffrey? STOP blaming your customers for what you KNOW is more. STOP trying to find yet another scapegoat so that the responsible party can once again escape responsibility. STOP telling the public that shorter oil change intervals will keep sludge out of these engines when you KNOW this is not true. We've already had to listen to Mike Michels and John Hanson at Toyota who keep reciting this, "We are unaware of a single case of engine oil sludge in a properly maintained vehicle" mantra.

I ask you, Jeffrey, WHO is really being scammed here? Who really wants the "free ride" that the spin doctors claim? Who cares more about the bottom dollar than the owners of its vehicles?

I hope I have created fuel for some active debate about this matter. What has transpired recently demands full participation by the TOYOTA VICTIMS OF SLUDGE. Your claims as well your employer's will be called to task. I've got plenty of time for your response........

Gelling in an engine made by Toyota, or anyone else for that matter is a product of advertising, J.D Powers, and just plain neglect. I am a Toyota certified Master Technician, and I can absolutly state that I've never repaired a "sludged" engine that was properly maintained. I will be brief and say that Toyota messed up by showing a commercial that shows someone welding a hood shut. The service intervals shown in the owners manual are there only for J.D. Powers maintenence cost #s. Which must appear to be low to appeal to the consumer and help them decide which vehicle to buy. The Toyota owners manual reflects this backward thinking by recommending 7,500 mile oil changes. Hasn't everyone in this country seen the {Gulp} Jiffy Lube ads? They recommend oil changes at 3,000 intervals. That's not just advertising, that's sound advise. Todays engines spin faster, run hotter, and generally beat the crap out of motor oil in a hurry. As a Toyota Technician, I have to deal weekly with fixing problems that consumers themselves have caused. There is no, ZERO, gelling problems on Toypta engines with "reasonable" oil changes. But when I'm "rewarding" a customer by essentially rebuilding their engine for a paltry amount of time, for blatently neglecting their Toyota, I have problem. I'll tell you this, if they treated a cat or a dog with such neglect, they'd be arrested.