Right Toyota ripoff - victimized many consumers even at midnight Scottsdale Arizona *EDitor's Comments

Having recently visited Right Toyota in my search for a car, I have an idea of what transpired with Gwen. While I can't prove it, my guess is that she wasn't "trespassing," but likely was present at one of the infamous "Midnight Madness" sales sponsored by various metro-area auto dealers. The fact that she was approached by a salesman may bear this out. As eager as they are, salespeople aren't usually on the lot at midnight!

Avoiding car-shopping and signing contracts when one is tired is a "given." But more importantly, she implied that all these things were "done to her" against her will. Instead of allowing herself to be hookwinked into becoming a party to a contract prematurely, she might have tried saying, "I'm just looking; I'll let you know when I have a question, or if/when I'm ready to do business." Or, "I'm still considering a car at another dealer and I'm not ready to talk about contracts." Or, "I don't make big purchases on an impulse. Also, I prefer to come back when my husband/a friend can come with me." Or, "I don't like being hustled! I'd prefer to just look right now," or, "I never make important decisions after 9 p.m.", etc., etc.

If you say things like, "I can't afford this car," you're inviting the salesperson to say, "We'll MAKE it affordable for you!" In other words, they have an answer to every reason you give them as to why you don't want to sign a contract. If you have a saturation point with that kind of stuff, don't "lower the bar" just for him! When you start feeling cornered, that's when you say, "I'm sorry; I'm feeling pushed. I don't think I want to do business with your company." And then, you walk away.

The other VERY important thing is to do research before you ever set foot on a car lot! Even if you only have a vague idea of what you want and what you can afford, read up on it by taking advantage of resources (e.g., consumer guides, Internet Web sites that focus on car-buying strategy, etc.).

Don't expect to do any serious shopping when you're tired, but when you DO shop, arrive at the lot armed with a fistful of consumer reports on the specific vehicles you like. If you're dead-set on a particular make & model, don't let anyone persuade you to buy something else.

Ask what ALL your options are (in my case, the Honda dealership next door, also owned by Right, told me I could buy, lease or have a lease-purchase agreement, and he told me the limitations of each re: breaking a lease or returning a car.

If you want to see a salesman turn plaid, ask how much the dealership paid for the car, not just the sticker price! You have a right to know (and can find out if HE won't tell you). That gives you an idea of how much wiggle room you have for negotiating.

All of this takes time, and frankly, I can't imagine trying to do all that in one visit, at midnight or otherise! The bottom line is that if you know the law, know your rights, know what information to ask for and know how much time you need to shop for a deal that you know, in your heart, is a good one, then you feel like a winner and not a victim!

Knowledge is power - and that's the only way to preserve both your legal rights and your dignity!

My only question to Gwen is this. If you went to a private property at Midnight with the intention of tresspassing, why did you stay after you were approached by a salesman? As you and I both know that unless you are tied down or held at gun point, then there is absolutly nothing holding you to stay at the dealership. Although most people, myself included, do not want to insult or treat salesmen like dirt, if you only intention was to look then you should have left.

As far as you excuse that it was midnight and you were tired and not thinking straight when you signed the contracts, well then you shouldn't have been out shopping at midnight. That I would suggest to be your best course of action in the future. There is one more thing that most people are not aware of, there are sticker prices on cars just like there are on T.V.'s, vaccums, computers, etc. except we as Americans don't think that it is necessary to negotiate on these items. When we do decide to negotiate on vehicles then we are saying, in a sence, that the sticker price no longer matters and the dealer now has the right to sell the vehicle for whatever he/she wants to. The sicker price is just a suggested price anyway.

Think about what MSRP stands for, Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price, the price is just a suggestion. Because the price is just a suggestion, in a negotiation the price can go up or down. I have had a similar experience and this is why I just pay the price on the window now. One other thing to think about, I have several family members in the automotive business, salespeople negotiate every day, we as consumers negotiate only when we buy a car or house. Who do you think has more practice and is better at it? Save yourself time and grief, just pay the listed price.

My work involves enforcement of consumer fraud
laws and another scam I am seeing alot of lately
is as follows.

This scam is usually pulled on the elderly or young first time buyers, but if the salesman thinks he/she can get away with it, they will pull it on anyone.

The salesman gets the customer to sign a contract
for much more than the car is worth. The lender
gets a description of the vehicle loaded with
non-existent accessories in order to inflate the
value of the vehicle so the lender can justify a
loan for the inflated amount.

Also,the dealer will usually pad the interest to
what ever they think the customer will tolerate.

I have personally seen this pulled on an 89 year
old with excellent credit and the dealer dictated
an interest rate in the teens. The elderly
gentleman wasn't even aware he had been scammed.

It cannot be stressed enough, read the contract,
especially in the Truth In Lending box and check
the price of the vehicle immediately under the TIL box. If the figures do not agree with what you have been told, don't sign.

If the salesman promises something, get it in writing. If they are unwilling to do that, you were just lied to. Also if they agree to repair something, make sure what they write says it will be repaired. I have seen cases where the dealer will verbally agree to repairs, and write "Check A/C or Brakes." After the contract is signed, that is all they will do, Check it.

When the customer says, but you agreed to repair, the
dealer shows the written promise to check. The fine
print on the contract says, verbal promises don't
count, only what is in writing.

A majority of dealers have the attitude that they
have the right to take advantage of you to the full limit of their ability to do so. Don't be fooled by how nice they are before you sign the contract.

Believe me, they all turn nasty when you've been bagged and they don't want you bothering them with your problems.

I did not know you (the editor) had responded to my report until I was sent a copy by a Right Toyota Representative in February 2003. They were very pleased with your response.



I understand what you have written. But there has to be a component of integrity in a business relationship to maintain customers and the business they negotiate. Otherwise, their commitment to the community and the public at large will deteriorate.



I want to thank the other party who responded for taking the time to inform me of further opportunities I should watch for.



Have a good day.

I COULD UNDERSTAND YOUR ANGER. BUT THE THING YOU MUST UNDRSTAND IS THAT THIS WAS A MIDNIGHT SALE AND THE DEALER MAY NOT HAVE NOTICED THAT YOU HAVE RIPED OFF OTHER PEOPLE THAT HAD GIVEN YOU CREDIT IN THE PAST. I AM A DEALER AND HAVE BEEN IN THIS SITUATION BEFORE NOW WHAT I DO IF I DO NOT HAVE A FINALE APPROVAL ON A LOAN AND THE CONSUMER WOULD LIKE TO TAKE THE VEHICLE HOME IS INFORM THEM OF THE SITUATION AND HAVE THE SIGN A DOCUMENT STATEING THEY UNDERSTAND.



I DONT KNOW IF YOU WERE INFORMED THAT YOU WERE NOT APPROVED IF NOT YOU CERTINLY SHOULD HAVE BEEN. YOU ALSO SHOULD HAVE HAD SOME IDEA (IE PHONE CALLS FROM CREDIT COMPANYS LATE AT NIGHT LOOK FOR PAYMENT)

Unlike some of our self-professed experts who tout close connections to this website, your cogent comments are well-composed and articulate. Thank you for your comments!!! They have highlighted a preeminent problem in the car buying business today. Perhaps we should ask our lawmakers why they allow this.



Sincerely,



ED Magedson

EDitor@ripoffreport.com

Unlike some of our self-professed experts who tout close connections to this website, your cogent comments are well-composed and articulate. Thank you for your comments!!! They have highlighted a preeminent problem in the car buying business today. Perhaps we should ask our lawmakers why they allow this.



Sincerely,



ED Magedson

EDitor@ripoffreport.com

Unlike some of our self-professed experts who tout close connections to this website, your cogent comments are well-composed and articulate. Thank you for your comments!!! They have highlighted a preeminent problem in the car buying business today. Perhaps we should ask our lawmakers why they allow this.



Sincerely,



ED Magedson

EDitor@ripoffreport.com

Unlike some of our self-professed experts who tout close connections to this website, your cogent comments are well-composed and articulate. Thank you for your comments!!! They have highlighted a preeminent problem in the car buying business today. Perhaps we should ask our lawmakers why they allow this.



Sincerely,



ED Magedson

EDitor@ripoffreport.com

While you should, of course read the lease, you may have another course of action. First, did you receive a copy of your credit application. The majority of the auto dealers don't give you a copy. The main reason they don't is because of what happened to me. It's a hidden fraud that very little people know about. Since I am in the process of a lawsuit filed against this dealer, I will not name names. They are interested in settling in lieu of going to court.



What happened is that because I had an excellent credit record, the bank didn't verify my income. Unbeknownst to me, when the salesman told me not to put my child support income down because he stated that it wouldn't be enough to qualify me for a leased truck that cost approx. $24,000.00. I only made $18,000.00 annually. He told me that even if I did write it down in the 'other income' box that it wouldn't be enough. So I left it blank as he suggested. He comes back after checking my credit (he said he would just do it for me to see what I'd qualify for). Lo and behold, he comes back in 20 minutes and says I qualified for a vehicle worth $6,000.00 more than I make.



Three months later, by a freak situation, I call the bank and end up talking to a supervisor about my lease. She reads me what is on the application that the salesman filled out and I only signed. He, in his own handwriting, wrote that I made $4,800.00 more a year as rental income. Since I don't own any propery and never told him I had any, I realized that he padded my income to make the deal go through. The supervisor at the bank (Key Bank) had read the amount to mean $4,800 monthly income, however, it did not say monthly on the application. She then told me that they would have not approved the loan on my actual income alone. The bank has an out when in this particular application, it states that the "lender may verify the info on this application". Due to my good credit, the bank is so anxious to make the deal that they approved it immediately, relying on the false amount that the salesman put down under the other income.



The question is: Was the vehicle amount (total) higher than your actual income? Did he/she ask you to leave anything blank, especially an 'other income' box on the application.



Before my credit was affected, when I turned the vehicle back in and refused to pay anybody any more money, I went to an auto dealer who, after checking my credit for a vehicle worth the same or close to it, told me point blank that if I would just fill out another application and add approx. $400.00 to $500.00 more to my monthly income he can guarantee me that the bank won't call my employer to verify my income. He was that sure about the bank not verifying.



A finance manager told me that the banks rely on whatever info is on the credit report. If someone has great credit like I did, they jump on it so fast your head would spin. They don't waste time trying to call your employer to make sure you do make so much money.



Now, let's say the person who gets qualified falls on hard times, loses a job, gets injured and now has some choices. Either take the vehicle back and work out some payment plan to pay back the difference from the actual amount the car is worth and what they sell it for once its been used. Or he could give it back and not pay and file for bankruptcy. Or not give it back and eventually lose it to a repo man. Either way his credit is ruined and all because the greedy salesman padded his income to get him approved for a car that has payments that are more than what they would be for a car that he really is qualified for. The poor slob gets his credit ruined and has no vehicle.



If a person never falls on hard times, all that happens is somebody gets to pay for and drive a vehicle that is more than what he really is qualified for. No harm done. However, if the poor guy falls on hard times, he loses the car and may end up paying for it anyway or files bankruptcy and ruins his once excellent credit.



How many people don't get the credit application?

Every dealer I talked to said they normally don't give a customer a copy of the credit application. It just doesn't happen. Now I know why. How many people do they rip off? Unless everybody demands a copy of their credit app, the salesmen/women will have the opportunity to pad the info on your application.



When I found out about the fraud from the bank, I immediately called the receptionist and said that my salesman said he would give me a copy of my application and leave it at the front desk. If he hadn't done it yet, could you get it for me? The girl found the original and made me a copy. That's where I found his padded info that the bank relied on to approve the loan.



This is basically a hidden scam. Unless people ask for a copy of the application, they won't know. If they were to ask for it before they sign the deal, two things will happen to let you know they doctored the application. They will tell you that they shred them after the bank approves you (the bank will have their faxed copy though) or they'll say we are not allowed to release those applications. Which of course isn't true. If they don't want to give you the copy you deserve then don't sign the contract.



Most contracts even have a clause that states that the purchaser has received a copy of the following documents but the credit application is not listed among them. That way they can conspicously leave it out and not have to give it to under the contract. So don't sign any contract without seeing the contract, and don't leave anything blank on the credit application. He told me that we could fill in the rest later but this info was all the bank needed and the bank bought the paper.



Also, don't be fooled by them telling you that the bank sets the interest rate. If you have good credit, the bank tells the dealer the lowest rate they'll take on any given day and the dealer adds on what is known as the 'dealer's reserve'. It could be 1 to 5 %. So if the dealer says that 8% is what the bank will give you, it means that the bank will take 4-6 percent and the dealer gets the other 2-4 percent.



That's how they make most of their money, by selling the loan to the bank. The bank gives the minimun rate and the dealer gets anything over that rate. That's why they love to finance vehicles. They make lots of money from doing so.



I'll let the badbusiness bureau.com people know what happens with my suit.

Unfortunatly, when someone feels they had a bad expereince, no one can win. Here is the problem though, you did sign the lease. You agreed to lease the vehicle and put your signature to it. You could have said, let me review this and come back in the morning.



If anything, you admit you will now read something before you put you signature on it.